---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/10/05: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:35 AM - Re: best shears (ROBERT SCEPPA) 2. 06:49 AM - Use & Sales Tax Issues WAS: re How Much (Gig Giacona) 3. 07:55 AM - Re: Ray Allen - A great company (Brandon Tucker) 4. 08:05 AM - Re: How Much (Brandon Tucker) 5. 08:07 AM - Re: Building Wing Spars (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 6. 08:16 AM - EGT Balance issues with Jabiru 3300 (charles.long@gm.com) 7. 01:01 PM - Re: (This is) How Much (N5SL) 8. 03:39 PM - Re: How Much (William J. Naumuk) 9. 05:18 PM - I need help already! (Michael Valentine) 10. 05:44 PM - Re: How Much (Brandon Tucker) 11. 05:48 PM - Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd (Mark Stauffer) 12. 05:56 PM - Re: Re: How Much (Craig Payne) 13. 06:05 PM - Re: I need help already! (William J. Naumuk) 14. 06:08 PM - Re: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd (Craig Payne) 15. 06:23 PM - Re: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd (Craig Payne) 16. 06:47 PM - Re: I need help already! (doug kandle) 17. 07:35 PM - Inspection plates. (Larry) 18. 07:35 PM - Re: I need help already! (Larry) 19. 07:40 PM - Re: I need help already! (Paul Mulwitz) 20. 08:19 PM - Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd (Jeff Davidson) 21. 08:30 PM - Re: I need help already! (kevinbonds) 22. 08:35 PM - Re: I need help already! (kevinbonds) 23. 11:13 PM - Just to clear the air (kevinbonds) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:07 AM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: Zenith-List: best shears --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > Aaron, thanks for the info about the shears. I > looked on the website and found the TS1 model, it > was listed $39.90 and shipping about another $8. > I researched my area and found a local distributor. > However they didn't carry the cheaper model, but did > carry the heavier duty one. Seems they dropped that > lighter duty one. Anyway for another $28 it was a > good buy and it comes with the kit to attach it to > a drill. I am going to try to rig up some kind of > holder so I can cut the long pieces of aluminum on > a table using a guide. Thanks again. > Bob Sceppa --- Aaron wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Aaron" > > > Thanks for all the replies. I guess Malco it will > be. I had seen them and > they looked like they might be the ticket, but w/o > feedback I just didn't > want to waste my money. > Aaron do not archive > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > __________________________________ Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:07 AM PST US From: "Gig Giacona" "Zenith-List Digest List" Subject: Zenith-List: Use & Sales Tax Issues WAS: re How Much INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" Just having it crated and shipped doesn't, in most states, clear you from sales tax or as most states call it USE tax. I have no idea how Zenith gets away with not charging sales tax on items picked up there but if you have it shipped to you in another state most states can put on the tax burden. How well they police it is varies greatly from state to state. Time: 02:22:24 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Trell, One more thing you might need to keep in mind if you opt to pick up your components from ZAC in MO is that some states are very agressive in tracking "lost" sales tax revenue. If you save crating charges initially you may well have to pay state sales tax when you get a N number or register your plane. If you can't prove you didn't buy from an individual you will owe state tax on it. The law may vary in other sates, but I went thru it in Georgia. Good luck! Ron DeWees ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:29 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Ray Allen - A great company --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Bill, I live in the same town as Ray Allen Co. The owner just received his CAW built 701 this summer, and I often see it flying around KCRQ. He has it decked out with their newest control grips, ect.. -A company that services our comunity, and flies what we fly. R/ Brandon __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:02 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Bill, >>.... even over a 40 year old nationally rejected GM car motor lash >>up. -That is a hell of a comment. I think it was a weak attempt at humor, kinda' like the political comment, but... If you have put a zero timed O-235 into a Zodie for less than 5 or 6 thousand I'm sure we would all like to hear the details... R/ Brandon 601 HDS airframe complete engine installed wiring panel __________________________________ Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:28 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Building Wing Spars From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Actually this looks very similar to the C frame dimpler the RV guys use....Hmm I never thought about using it to set rivets. (could use the cupped head as the bottom die too) It should work just fine. I might drive a few just for fun. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zodie Rocket Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Building Wing Spars --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" For $25.00 and about 2 hours work you can have you own Super duty Spar Rivet smasher. A few people have built this on the list and everyone has been happy with the results. http://www.ch601.org/tools/dimpler/dimpler.htm Enjoy making the spars is a daunting process. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Johnson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Building Wing Spars --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" The Sonex guys use a big bolt and a hammer on one end, and a bucking bar against under the spar on the workbench on the other end. I'm not to that point on my Sonex, but if you know a Sonexbuilder who is..... - Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd Osborne Subject: Zenith-List: Building Wing Spars --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Todd Osborne" I need to get something (but relatively cheap) going on my Zodiac and am considering building the wing spars to keep me busy for a while. The last set I made for an HD many years ago, I bucked the solid rivets because the HD used a (approx) 1.5" spar cap. I am at work now and not sure exactly what the XL uses, but I assume the spar is a similar design. My question is this, and this is based solely on inexperience with pneumatic sqeezers. If I chose to squeeze the rivets rather than buck them, how do you do it while "reaching over" the spar cap? The ones I have seen have such a small mount that I cannot imagine being able to do it over the cap. Or should I buck them, or drive them? And lastly, since I would only need the squeezer for a day or so to set all the solid rivets, is there a place where you can rent a tool like this? Todd Osborne Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com Web Site: www.toddtown.com MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com -- -- -- 10/5/2005 -- 10/5/2005 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:03 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: EGT Balance issues with Jabiru 3300 From: charles.long@gm.com 27, 2005) at 10/10/2005 11:14:48 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com For those of you with Jabiru 3300's, the following info may be helpful if you are having CHT or EGT issues: I've solved a EGT imbalance issue with my 601HDS. At full throttle, EGT's from left to right bank were 150 F different. I suspected that air entering the carb through a 90 degree elbow was piling up on the outside of the curve. I installed a vertical divider in the elbow to keep left side air separated from the right side air. This worked beautifully. My EGT's are now balanced within roughly 50 F at all throttle settings including WOT. The divider was fabricated out of a piece of 6061T6 aluminum - 5.00" x 2.75" x .016". The upper and lower edges were rolled around a 1/16" cable to add stiffness and prevent cutting of the rubber elbow. Finished height is just slightly over 2.25 inches so it fits snuggly within the elbow. After rolling the edges, the part was bent 90 degrees to fit the elbow contour by wrapping around a 2" diameter plastic pipe. After it springs back, you end up with a 2" bend radius which is equivalent to the center radius of the elbow. Once the part is finished, the cable can be removed (corrosion issue). The rubber elbow is quite pliable in the free state, so the flow divider installs quite easily. After installation, the divider is trapped pretty well in all directions. After a 28 hour breakin and tweeking the Ram Air ducts, my EGT's and CHT's are running as follows: RPM IAS CHT1 CHT2 CHT3 CHT4 CHT5 CHT6 EGT5 EGT6 2600 110 247 228 259 247 272 245 1465 1423 2700 120 242 221 253 239 265 240 1486 1451 2800 125 242 226 252 242 265 244 1512 1498 2900 130 253 246 260 260 268 262 1482 1538 WOT 138 288 293 293 298 301 297 1463 1482 This was a quickie test and temps/speeds were not totally stabilized. Oil temps varied from 200-230F depending on Throttle setting. Test was run at 3500 ft MSL, ambient 60F. Econ Carb jets & wheel pants installed. The Jabiru is running very nice. I'm happy with the installation, power and smoothness after getting through these initial teething problems. Fuel burn at lower cruise settings is estimated at a miserly 4 gph. With the fat wing, I suspect fuel burn will go way up at the higher cruise speeds. Can't wait to finish flying off my 40 hours so I can give some rides! Chuck Long Zodie 601HDS N601LE, 29 hr TT ----- Forwarded by Charles F. Long/US/ATD/GMC on 10/10/2005 09:17 AM ----- Charles F. Long 09/28/2005 07:58 AM cc: Subject: EGT Balance issues with Jabiru 3300 I'm still having issues with EGT balancing at full throttle on my HDS with Jab3300. I've installed the Fuel Econ Carb kit and now am seeing stabilized peak CHT's at full power (320F). Cruise CHT's are only 20F higher than before (290F). I've tried a new 90 degree Rubber intake elbow with a longer straight section at the carb and it helped a little (reduced WOT imbalance from 200F to 150F). Also tried rotating the carb, which helped balance the front cylinder CHT's but didn't do much to EGT's. EGT's at low cruise are balanced at 1450F. Higher speed cruise are balanced at 1520F. WOT is split - Left side 1400, Right side 1550. Since CHT's seem to be under control, not sure how much more work I should do. I could drill out the main jet and / or needle jet but not altogether comfortable moving away from the factory settings. Any thoughts here? Chuck Long N601LE, 25 hr TT ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:41 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: (This is) How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL For those following this thread from yesterday, I added up all my receipts today and have $10,187.05 invested in my almost complete airplane and engine (minus canopy). This includes the ZAC plans, the rudder school with travel and lodging, most of the parts to finish my engine, a little third-party work such as bending, machine work and powder-coating, all of the aluminum, nuts, bolts, cables, wire, primer and rivets to finish the tail, wings and fuselage, and all instrumentation including flight instruments, engine instruments, radio and transponder. I have budgeted another $5,000 to complete the project by next summer. This of course does not account for my time over the past three years which was donated for free since I find it very enjoyable. But that's just me. Lastly I can't put a price on the valuable help I've received from fellow builders that make up a list too long to mention which is one of the reasons I like this hobby - it's a great group of folks to be associated with. Happy Building, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com 601XL / W_Wynne_Corvair Conversion Working on Wiring and FWF --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:56 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland I do recommend, at the least, that > if you screw up a part, you should try to make the replacement part > yourself. All- I don't think anyone will dispute the fact that the SHIPPING WILL KILL YOU!!! There is no better incentive for doing some scratch building than looking at the price of a Zenith replacement part and saying, "That's not too bad" and then PAYING TWICE AGAIN WHAT THE PART COST FOR SHIPPING! From an actual invoice- HDS Nose Skin- $189.00. Price with shipping- $435.80. It cost me about $50.00 to make a variation of Larry's bend jig, and a sheet of .025 including shipping is about $65.00. Running across Larry's website literally saved my project. Maybe compromise is the best approach from all angles. Buy the plans and figure out what you can easily make, like ribs and skins. Find a good contract welder, figure on cutting the pieces for him, and just paying for the actual welding of the gear legs, control stick, etc. For the stuff that's too big, too hard to find, or that you don't trust anyone else to make, order in one shot from Zenith. What the heck, if you give up and decide to entirely go with a kit, Zenith will credit you for the price of the plans upon kit purchase, so it doesn't cost you anything to investigate. It seems the only other hot spot on the list is concerning powerplant. Someone said, "Show me a zero time 0-235 for 5-6K". Don't forget, you're experimental. You don't have to buy a zero-time certified engine- you can buy a run-out and zero time it yourself. Isn't that what you're intending to do to a run-out auto engine? I still contend that the engine itself is less than half the equation- coming up with the engine mount, baffles, and cowling are the big problems. Admit it- that's why a FWF kit is so attractive (Except for the pricetag). Come on, Igor, back to the lab. Not THOSE skins! Take them back to the graveyard where you found them............. Bill > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:27 PM PST US From: Michael Valentine Subject: Zenith-List: I need help already! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine Hello all, So, I took the plunge. For those of you who responded to my questions a couple weeks ago - thanks. Now I am the proud owner of a tail kit - but things are already going wrong! Before I even drilled a hole, I felt compelled to call the factory to confirm some measurements I didn't understand, and now, barely another hour in, I have another problem. I followed the text of the rudder manual - p. 11 of 16 - to install Rear Rib #3 with the flange up. (BTW, my RR#3 - 6T4-8 has the flange going the opposite direction of the other folds in the rib as all the drawings show.) Now, when I go back to install the nose rib, I realize that something must be wrong because they are supposed to line up. The drawings actually show the RR#3 flange pointed down. Of course, my holes aren't perfectly spaced, so I can't just turn it around. Where did I go wrong? Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to need to check the drawings for every single step? Obviously it is a cheap and easy lesson to learn this early, but is a bit frustrating nonetheless! Thanks for any help you can provide. Cheers, Michael Valentine do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:24 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker >Don't forget, you're experimental. You don't have to buy a zero-time >certified engine- you can buy a run-out and zero time it yourself. Isn't >that what you're intending to do to a run-out auto engine? I did not forget, and said nothing about certificated. Just the parts to zero-time an O-235 are several thousand. The certified mechanics at my airport make between 20 and 30 dollars an hour. Assembly labor costs are a small portion of a certificated rebuild job. Also, the 5 - 6 thousand I was referring to is what I paid firewall forward, including engine mount, carb, prop, cowling, new valve guides, seats, pistons, ect... R/ Brandon __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:56 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: Zenith-List: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" To anyone that has gone before me....... I'm installing a Jabiru 3300 on my 601XL. I have dual sticks and the single vernier throttle cable. Where/how did you run your throttle and choke cables? Did you run it through the center channel right next to the nose gear? How did you keep them, especially the choke cable, from chafing the bungee cord? If not there did you run it on the right side of the center channel? If so did you put a slight bend in the brass ferrules so the cable could clear the channel? Last question, what did you use for a grommet, a simple rubber grommet with "dum-dum" or did you use the nice fireproof metal grommets that I can't seem to find now in the AS&S catalog? Thanks for any and all help. Mark Odenton, MD Installing the engine...... ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:31 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 166.70.39.121 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=166.70.39.121; envelope-from=craig@craigandjean.com; helo=TheTCCraig; Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: How Much T_TM2_M_HEADER_IN_MSG autolearn=disabled version=3.0.3 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Not to mention the 1.7 million people who (over a ten year period) did *not* "reject" the Corvair - they bought one. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker >Don't forget, you're experimental. You don't have to buy a zero-time >certified engine- you can buy a run-out and zero time it yourself. Isn't >that what you're intending to do to a run-out auto engine? I did not forget, and said nothing about certificated. Just the parts to zero-time an O-235 are several thousand. The certified mechanics at my airport make between 20 and 30 dollars an hour. Assembly labor costs are a small portion of a certificated rebuild job. Also, the 5 - 6 thousand I was referring to is what I paid firewall forward, including engine mount, carb, prop, cowling, new valve guides, seats, pistons, ect... R/ Brandon __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:16 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I need help already! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Zenith-List: I need help already! > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine Mike- Go by the prints. Bill > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:34 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 166.70.39.121 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=166.70.39.121; envelope-from=craig@craigandjean.com; helo=TheTCCraig; Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd T_TM2_M_HEADER_IN_MSG autolearn=disabled version=3.0.3 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" "nice fireproof metal grommets" I don't think these are what you are thinking of but they might solve part of your problem: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/eyeballfw.php -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stauffer Subject: Zenith-List: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" --> To anyone that has gone before me....... I'm installing a Jabiru 3300 on my 601XL. I have dual sticks and the single vernier throttle cable. Where/how did you run your throttle and choke cables? Did you run it through the center channel right next to the nose gear? How did you keep them, especially the choke cable, from chafing the bungee cord? If not there did you run it on the right side of the center channel? If so did you put a slight bend in the brass ferrules so the cable could clear the channel? Last question, what did you use for a grommet, a simple rubber grommet with "dum-dum" or did you use the nice fireproof metal grommets that I can't seem to find now in the AS&S catalog? Thanks for any and all help. Mark Odenton, MD Installing the engine...... ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:53 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 166.70.39.121 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=166.70.39.121; envelope-from=craig@craigandjean.com; helo=TheTCCraig; Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd T_TM2_M_HEADER_IN_MSG autolearn=disabled version=3.0.3 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" "nice fireproof metal grommets" Hah! I think I found what you are thinking of but I found them on Van's site: http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1128993311-78-363&brow se=airframe&product=firewall-shields -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stauffer Subject: Zenith-List: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" --> To anyone that has gone before me....... I'm installing a Jabiru 3300 on my 601XL. I have dual sticks and the single vernier throttle cable. Where/how did you run your throttle and choke cables? Did you run it through the center channel right next to the nose gear? How did you keep them, especially the choke cable, from chafing the bungee cord? If not there did you run it on the right side of the center channel? If so did you put a slight bend in the brass ferrules so the cable could clear the channel? Last question, what did you use for a grommet, a simple rubber grommet with "dum-dum" or did you use the nice fireproof metal grommets that I can't seem to find now in the AS&S catalog? Thanks for any and all help. Mark Odenton, MD Installing the engine...... ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:53 PM PST US From: doug kandle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I need help already! --> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle I just started my 701 a couple of months ago. I found that you do have to double/triple check the drawings at every step. Not because I have found errors, but because I didn't see every detail. I finally decided to locate all the parts and, using a felt tip pen, mark where they are going to go. If possible I clamp all the parts roughly together or even tape them on. I then compare what I have pasted together with several pictures in the assembly instructions. It is easy to miss a left-right or up-down annotation on the drawings. I have been surprised by what details the instructions have chosen to explain and which they left out. Perhaps the instructions left off were so obvious to the writer that they should go without saying! For example, I am now working on the wings. When installing the rear channel, the instructions say that you should be sure that the ribs are perpendicular to the spar. I did that very carefully (clamping the spar & ribs to my table), but then found that the lengths needed for the channels (the distances between the rear of the ribs) were not right. The problem was that when just placed on edge, the wing spar is not perfectly straight (I guess the rivets sort of curve it a bit - I bought the complete kit so this is how ZAC builds them). The instructions didn't mention that you need to clamp the spar to your table so that it is straight. If you have the spar straight, and the distances between the ribs correct at the rear of the wing, then you don't need to worry too much about the angle between the rib and the spar. Good luck and have fun >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine > >Hello all, > Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to >need to check the drawings for every single step? >do not archive > Doug Kandle CH701 Boise ID Rudder & Horiz. Stab. done Working on Wings From complete kit ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:31 PM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Zenith-List: Inspection plates. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" BlankWell, I finally fired up my Hawg and as usual there was a problem. The dreaded gas leak in the wing. Took me a while to find it, but somehow one of the lines between the tanks had a cut in it. Which brings me to my point. PegaStol wings have a total of 24 removable inspection plates. And if I had to do it over there would have been more. Had this been Zac wing, I would have been popping skin off. Of course I leaked it before I closed it up, but somehow I missed it or a drill bit caught it. Inspection plates are cheap and easy to install. They have them at Aircraft Spruce P/N 09-19300 at a whole $1.85 each. I would put one under each and every place where there is a fitting and at least one between every rib. Larry Martin, www.anglefire.com/un/ch701 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:31 PM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I need help already! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" The rudder section is by far the best instructions you will have in the entire process. If you are having problems with the rudder then you need to sit down and study how to read the drawings before you proceed with the rest of it or you are going to have a lot of trouble. The secret is knowing how to read the drawings. The drawings are sort of like a movie, you see things the second, third time you didn't see the first. It is all there, but can be very confusing at times. Just take it one step at a time. Measure three times, cut once. I hope that made sense, if we can do it, so can you. Larry, N1345L, www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "doug kandle" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I need help already! > --> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle > > I just started my 701 a couple of months ago. I found that you do > have to double/triple check the drawings at every step. Not because > I have found errors, but because I didn't see every detail. I > finally decided to locate all the parts and, using a felt tip pen, > mark where they are going to go. If possible I clamp all the parts > roughly together or even tape them on. I then compare what I have > pasted together with several pictures in the assembly > instructions. It is easy to miss a left-right or up-down annotation > on the drawings. > > I have been surprised by what details the instructions have chosen to > explain and which they left out. Perhaps the instructions left off > were so obvious to the writer that they should go without > saying! For example, I am now working on the wings. When installing > the rear channel, the instructions say that you should be sure that > the ribs are perpendicular to the spar. I did that very carefully > (clamping the spar & ribs to my table), but then found that the > lengths needed for the channels (the distances between the rear of > the ribs) were not right. The problem was that when just placed on > edge, the wing spar is not perfectly straight (I guess the rivets > sort of curve it a bit - I bought the complete kit so this is how ZAC > builds them). The instructions didn't mention that you need to clamp > the spar to your table so that it is straight. If you have the spar > straight, and the distances between the ribs correct at the rear of > the wing, then you don't need to worry too much about the angle > between the rib and the spar. > > Good luck and have fun > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine >> >> >>Hello all, >> Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to >>need to check the drawings for every single step? >>do not archive >> > > Doug Kandle > CH701 > Boise ID > Rudder & Horiz. Stab. done Working on Wings > From complete kit > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:02 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I need help already! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Michael, Welcome to the club! For starters, you must follow the prints (drawings). The instructions are just a guide to help you along. Use the instructions and the pictures to orient yourself and gain understanding of what you are doing. Then study the prints and do exactly what the prints indicate. The reason for this is the instructions and prints are not necessarily prepared at the same time. Usually the instructions are a lot older than the actual drawings. So you need to follow the latest information which will be found in the drawings. Now for the fun. When you drill holes where they don't belong you have several ways to recover. The best way is to replace the smaller part with a new one which you make yourself. You can order reasonably small quantities of sheet metal online and follow the instructions in the builder's manual and drawings to prepare the part as needed. This is just like scratch building, but you already have a good sample part (the one you drilled wrongly) to compare your work to. That makes it a lot easier, and you can keep trying until you get it the way you want. Other ways to recover include adding additional pieces of metal to sandwich your bad holes, and adding extra rivets on either side of the bad holes. You can also fix slightly egg shaped holes by changing to larger rivets. My last piece of wisdom is to not get worried about the amount of time and money you spend on each step of the plane. Use each screw-up as a chance to improve your skills and gain new experience. You will feel great when you overcome your own mistakes. The extra cost of buying some metal and making some new parts is not great. Probably the biggest expense will be the shipping. Good luck, and have a lot of fun. Paul XL wings do not archive At 05:17 PM 10/10/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine > >Hello all, > >So, I took the plunge. For those of you who responded to my questions >a couple weeks ago - thanks. Now I am the proud owner of a tail kit - >but things are already going wrong! Before I even drilled a hole, I >felt compelled to call the factory to confirm some measurements I >didn't understand, and now, barely another hour in, I have another >problem. > >I followed the text of the rudder manual - p. 11 of 16 - to install >Rear Rib #3 with the flange up. (BTW, my RR#3 - 6T4-8 has the flange >going the opposite direction of the other folds in the rib as all the >drawings show.) Now, when I go back to install the nose rib, I >realize that something must be wrong because they are supposed to line >up. The drawings actually show the RR#3 flange pointed down. Of >course, my holes aren't perfectly spaced, so I can't just turn it >around. > >Where did I go wrong? Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to >need to check the drawings for every single step? Obviously it is a >cheap and easy lesson to learn this early, but is a bit frustrating >nonetheless! > >Thanks for any help you can provide. > >Cheers, Michael Valentine > >do not archive > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:54 PM PST US From: "Jeff Davidson" Subject: Zenith-List: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Davidson" Mark, I'm using the dual throttle setup so I haven't done this yet, but the JabiruUSA Zenith CH601 Vernier Throttle Installation manual has a picture on page 3 that show the cable going through the firewall just to the copilot's side of the firewall center channel right at the top of the bungee cord - straight aft of the carb. The note indicates that the hole is drilled to size for "a rubber bushing", but it may be wise to upgrade that. If you don't already have them, the FWF installation manuals are available on the JabiruUSA web site on the Zenith CH601 FWF page. Jeff Davidson I'm installing a Jabiru 3300 on my 601XL. I have dual sticks and the single vernier throttle cable. Where/how did you run your throttle and choke cables? Did you run it through the center channel right next to the nose gear? How did you keep them, especially the choke cable, from chafing the bungee cord? If not there did you run it on the right side of the center channel? If so did you put a slight bend in the brass ferrules so the cable could clear the channel? Last question, what did you use for a grommet, a simple rubber grommet with "dum-dum" or did you use the nice fireproof metal grommets that I can't seem to find now in the AS&S catalog? ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:01 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: I need help already! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Michael If I understand you correctly, I think I can explain. The rivet lines for the RR#3 and the nose rib 6t4-8 are spaced 20mm apart on the spar (I assume this is what you were referring to) that way your rivet line on the skin will line up straight--since the RR spar flange is bent opposite to the other two and the nose rib spar flange is bent in the same direction as its other). Don't feel bad about not understanding. I didn't either until I attended the workshop. Sound like you are doing it the hard way. BTW I second the suggestion to go by the plans. If you can think about this as a plans builder, like myself, would have to, I believe it will help-- You just have less control (good or bad) over the quality of the parts in which to work with. I build all my own parts--none of them are perfect. You have to learn to make adjustments. The best advice I can give you is to remember YOU are building this plane. Zenith Aircraft Company is not, they have just supplied you with some of the parts that may or may not end up in your finished project. (I'm still upset that I ruined my very first scratch built part--an elevator rib--in a latter step and it had to be scraped. I wanted to be able to point to the area where my first part resided in my finished plane)I think most guys end up making a few of there own parts after making a mistake--unless you want to pay horrendous shipping fees every time you make a mistake. I think everyone should have at least one or two pieces in their plane that they fabbed themselves. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE At 05:17 PM 10/10/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine > >Hello all, > >So, I took the plunge. For those of you who responded to my questions >a couple weeks ago - thanks. Now I am the proud owner of a tail kit - >but things are already going wrong! Before I even drilled a hole, I >felt compelled to call the factory to confirm some measurements I >didn't understand, and now, barely another hour in, I have another >problem. > >I followed the text of the rudder manual - p. 11 of 16 - to install >Rear Rib #3 with the flange up. (BTW, my RR#3 - 6T4-8 has the flange >going the opposite direction of the other folds in the rib as all the >drawings show.) Now, when I go back to install the nose rib, I >realize that something must be wrong because they are supposed to line >up. The drawings actually show the RR#3 flange pointed down. Of >course, my holes aren't perfectly spaced, so I can't just turn it >around. > >Where did I go wrong? Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to >need to check the drawings for every single step? Obviously it is a >cheap and easy lesson to learn this early, but is a bit frustrating >nonetheless! > >Thanks for any help you can provide. > >Cheers, Michael Valentine > >do not archive > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:34 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: I need help already! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" One other note of clarification. By my plans the Nose rib rivet line is at station 610mm which would put the RR#3 at 590mm (measured from the bottom of the spar), make sure you didn't swap the order. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Valentine Subject: Zenith-List: I need help already! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine Hello all, So, I took the plunge. For those of you who responded to my questions a couple weeks ago - thanks. Now I am the proud owner of a tail kit - but things are already going wrong! Before I even drilled a hole, I felt compelled to call the factory to confirm some measurements I didn't understand, and now, barely another hour in, I have another problem. I followed the text of the rudder manual - p. 11 of 16 - to install Rear Rib #3 with the flange up. (BTW, my RR#3 - 6T4-8 has the flange going the opposite direction of the other folds in the rib as all the drawings show.) Now, when I go back to install the nose rib, I realize that something must be wrong because they are supposed to line up. The drawings actually show the RR#3 flange pointed down. Of course, my holes aren't perfectly spaced, so I can't just turn it around. Where did I go wrong? Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to need to check the drawings for every single step? Obviously it is a cheap and easy lesson to learn this early, but is a bit frustrating nonetheless! Thanks for any help you can provide. Cheers, Michael Valentine do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:37 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: Zenith-List: Just to clear the air --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Hello All The recent post by Michael V. (about needing help) got me thinking about the way in which "we", veterans and newcomers, communicate on this list. I am beginning to feel like a quasi-veteran, as I am almost two years into my build. I have noticed there is no standard practice for submitting/replying to a technical question. Many new builders are not yet accustomed to the terminology necessary to communicate and understand the more veteran builders. It is up to us experienced/veteran builders to engage newcomers, by using clear, concise descriptions and technique, when posting--questions or replies--to the list. For example, many of us (especially when we are "green") submit questions with terms like "up" or "down", without including from what direction we are viewing the part; or say things like "the flange" instead of saying "spar flange" etc. If we try to use the same sort of terminology as the plans, it should help the newcomer to think about the problem, and thus communicate it, in a manner that everyone can understand. Also when describing the orientation of things like flanges it is very clear to say something like "Spar flange is bent in the same/opposite direction as top and bottom flanges" just as the plans do. Also, including phrases such as "out-board" and "In-board", where appropriate, can be vital. Michael's email also reminded me that some inexperienced (and forgive me for saying) kit-builders think of the drawings as a supplement to the assembly instructions and not the other way around. This is easy for a kit-builder to do. After all he/she does not need to know the exact dimensions of this or that part, right? Well anyone who has been doing this for as long as some of us have know the answer to that. I'm not knocking ZAC. I love it that in this day and age Zenith Aircraft Company still supports us lowly plans-builders--when most other companies have abandoned us. For me, it took a while before someone could say "Spar" and I would immediately visualize the part. It is sometimes apparent, that it is a lack of understanding of the terminology that is the source of the confusion, behind a question, in the first place--though the asker may not realize it. It is also probably a good Idea to try to make a reply clear enough that it can stand alone in the archives. My apologies to Michael V., for singling him out in front of the class (it was not personal). Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds