Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:51 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets (cgalley)
2. 06:47 AM - Re: Folding Bikes (William Nichelson)
3. 06:47 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks (Gary Gower)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets (Bill Pagan)
5. 08:20 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks (cgalley)
6. 08:27 AM - Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (victor verdev)
7. 10:12 AM - Folding Bikes - Under $175 (P.H. Raker)
8. 10:41 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks (Steve Russell)
9. 11:18 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets (HeatonHE@aol.com)
10. 11:24 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets - Shank releasing. (Paul Mulwitz)
11. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: Cheery Q rivets (Carlos Sa)
12. 12:21 PM - [ Jim Pellien ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
13. 12:41 PM - 601 HDS for sale (Sykes, Greg (AGRE))
14. 02:24 PM - Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned (Carlos Sa)
15. 04:07 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Craig Payne)
16. 05:43 PM - Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned (bill naumuk)
17. 06:21 PM - Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned (Carlos Sa)
18. 06:57 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Paul Mulwitz)
19. 07:19 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Craig Payne)
20. 08:25 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Paul Mulwitz)
21. 08:52 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Craig Payne)
22. 09:49 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Paul Mulwitz)
23. 10:09 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (PASSPAT@aol.com)
24. 11:26 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Bryan Martin)
25. 11:35 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Pro-seal is what the RV boys use.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello Carlos,
>
> I am sure I have a note from one list, about building riveted tanks,
> including the name of the sealant to use betwen the two pieces (something
> like a liquid gasket).
>
> I cant remeber in the computer I have it... (office, home or laptop)
>
> What I remember is that was writen by Mr Bob Hoover (the other Bob), he
> is a VW engine expert.
>
> If you think you can learn something from this notes, I will look for it
> monday. Hope still is there.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.
>
> Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
>
> Hi, Paul
>
> Normal is relative - this is the way RV tanks are built (with *solid*
> rivets I admit). And other people on this list also have done it also.
>
> BTW, I'm not going to change my mind - all the (6061-T6, 0.032") parts are
> cut and bent to shape and they fit nicely... :o)
>
> Cheers
>
> Carlos
>
>
> Paul Mulwitz
> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
>
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Is there some reason you want to rivet the gas tank? The normal way
> to build one of these from metal is to have it welded.
>
> Paul
> XL Wings
> Do not archive
>
> At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
>>
>>Hello, all
>>
>> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start
>> drilling rivet holes.
>>
>> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received
>> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the
>> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem
>> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it.
>> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks
>> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should
>> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does
>> not form properly.
>> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble
>> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o)
>>
>> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my
>> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...???
>> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42)
>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php
>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Carlos
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Let fate take it's course directly to your email.
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Folding Bikes |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Nichelson <bn2@earthlink.net>
I just recently bought two of the 14" folding bikes from Zport. Actually I
bought them on Ebay for $95 each, shipping $35. I intend to carry them in
my 601HDS when we fly to places like Put In Bay and Kelly's Island on Lake
Erie in northern Ohio. These are great places to fly into, but you have to
either rent bicycles or golf carts to see the islands. I wanted my own
bikes and these were the lightest, smallest folded size I found that were
affordable.
They ride nicely, but the 3 speeds are geared lower than I would like. I
pretty much use high gear all the time. I have not had them in the plane
yet, but looking forward to several trips next summer.
Bill Nichelson
Bellefontaine, Ohio USA
Zodiac 601HDS
S/N 6-3556 - N132BN - "Casual Passion"
3300 Jabiru Engine, Prince Prop
>Time: 06:15:15 AM PST US
>From: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Folding Bikes - Under $175
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
>
>I just learned about these new folding bikes that are priced a lot lower
>than the competition. I know nothing about the company offering these
>bikes, nor their quality. But the price is very low. Go to:
>http://zportusa.com/ to see them
>
>Could be a great gift during the holiday season.
>
>Jim
>
>Jim Pellien
>Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
>www.MASPL.com
>703-313-4818
>jim@sportsplanes.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sure, thats the name, he uses it to seal the seams when riveting... We have never
tried it, Larry my brother knows how to weld alminum, se he just told me
that welding was esier...
I dont weld that well myself (never needed too :-), so if I ever want to make
a tank by myself, will be riveted (With A4 rivets).
Saludos
Gary Gower
cgalley <cgalley@qcbc.org> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley"
Pro-seal is what the RV boys use.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Gower"
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower
>
> Hello Carlos,
>
> I am sure I have a note from one list, about building riveted tanks,
> including the name of the sealant to use betwen the two pieces (something
> like a liquid gasket).
>
> I cant remeber in the computer I have it... (office, home or laptop)
>
> What I remember is that was writen by Mr Bob Hoover (the other Bob), he
> is a VW engine expert.
>
> If you think you can learn something from this notes, I will look for it
> monday. Hope still is there.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.
>
> Carlos Sa wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
>
> Hi, Paul
>
> Normal is relative - this is the way RV tanks are built (with *solid*
> rivets I admit). And other people on this list also have done it also.
>
> BTW, I'm not going to change my mind - all the (6061-T6, 0.032") parts are
> cut and bent to shape and they fit nicely... :o)
>
> Cheers
>
> Carlos
>
>
> Paul Mulwitz
> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
>
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Is there some reason you want to rivet the gas tank? The normal way
> to build one of these from metal is to have it welded.
>
> Paul
> XL Wings
> Do not archive
>
> At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
>>
>>Hello, all
>>
>> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start
>> drilling rivet holes.
>>
>> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received
>> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the
>> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem
>> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it.
>> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks
>> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should
>> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does
>> not form properly.
>> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble
>> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o)
>>
>> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my
>> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...???
>> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42)
>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php
>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Carlos
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Let fate take it's course directly to your email.
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Pagan <pdn8r@yahoo.com>
In RV tanks the pro-seal (more commonly referred to as "black death") works very
well. I am uncertain about the use of cherry rivets since with the RV tanks
solid rivets are used. Are the cherry rivets self sealing or only used on
outside flanges? On the RV the inboard leading edge of the wing is actually
the fuel tank. Built mine (don't wanna do that again) and no leaks using the
pro-seal but very messy. There are rivets available that are self sealing.
Bill Pagan
Florida
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/9749/william.html
---------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Less distortion when riveting.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>
> Sure, thats the name, he uses it to seal the seams when riveting... We
> have never tried it, Larry my brother knows how to weld alminum, se he
> just told me that welding was esier...
> I dont weld that well myself (never needed too :-), so if I ever want
> to make a tank by myself, will be riveted (With A4 rivets).
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower
>
>
> cgalley <cgalley@qcbc.org> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley"
>
> Pro-seal is what the RV boys use.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Gower"
> To:
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower
>>
>> Hello Carlos,
>>
>> I am sure I have a note from one list, about building riveted tanks,
>> including the name of the sealant to use betwen the two pieces (something
>> like a liquid gasket).
>>
>> I cant remeber in the computer I have it... (office, home or laptop)
>>
>> What I remember is that was writen by Mr Bob Hoover (the other Bob), he
>> is a VW engine expert.
>>
>> If you think you can learn something from this notes, I will look for it
>> monday. Hope still is there.
>>
>> Saludos
>> Gary Gower.
>>
>> Carlos Sa wrote:
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
>>
>> Hi, Paul
>>
>> Normal is relative - this is the way RV tanks are built (with *solid*
>> rivets I admit). And other people on this list also have done it also.
>>
>> BTW, I'm not going to change my mind - all the (6061-T6, 0.032") parts
>> are
>> cut and bent to shape and they fit nicely... :o)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>>
>> Paul Mulwitz
>> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
>>
>>
>> Hi Carlos,
>>
>> Is there some reason you want to rivet the gas tank? The normal way
>> to build one of these from metal is to have it welded.
>>
>> Paul
>> XL Wings
>> Do not archive
>>
>> At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
>>>
>>>Hello, all
>>>
>>> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start
>>> drilling rivet holes.
>>>
>>> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received
>>> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the
>>> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem
>>> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it.
>>> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks
>>> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should
>>> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does
>>> not form properly.
>>> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble
>>> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o)
>>>
>>> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my
>>> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...???
>>> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42)
>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php
>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Carlos
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Let fate take it's course directly to your email.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to
rear fuselage area. Using Sky Tec starter with built
in solenoid.
Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows
cable from battery going directly to starter? Any
advice on how to wire using 0235 Lyc. would be
appreciated.
__________________________________
Message 7
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| Subject: | Folding Bikes - Under $175 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "P.H. Raker" <n556p@yahoo.com>
Hey, Jim,
I also know nothing about that company. The bikes, however, look
suspiciously like the Chinese copy (unauthorized) of the Brompton
design which has been floating around for several years in other
markets. The word that's out on them among folding bike experts is
that their quality is awfull! They don't fold very easily, quickly, or
small. You must remove parts in order to fold them. The riding
qualities are rather poor: lots of frame flex, suspension doesn't work
well. On the other hand, the price may be right, but you may get what
you pay for.
The real Brompton folds small enough that I can put both of them
in the aft luggage area of my HDS with room to spare. It folds (or
unfolds and is ready to ride) in less than 20 seconds! When folded,
all the dirty bits are on the inside. Nothing needs to be removed to
fold it, so it's still all in one piece (nothing to get separated or
lost). It rides just like a full-sized bike (amazing, but true, even
though it has 16" wheels). The quality is superb throughout. It looks
as though it's built to last a lifetime. They can be seen at:
www.foldabikes.com No, they don't pay me to write this stuff. I'm
just that happy with the bikes, and they have to be darn good to
satisfy me. I ride a lot. I was so impressed that I bought two of
them. I wouldn't hesitate to do a 50 mile ride on my Brompton folding
bike.
The real Bromptons are certainly more expensive, but then again
you get what you pay for, a first-rate bike.
And of course, this advice is worth what you paid for it.
Phil Raker N556P HDS/Stratus ~85% completed
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
I just learned about these new folding bikes that are priced a lot
lower than the competition. I know nothing about the company offering
these bikes, nor their quality. But the price is very low. Go to:
http://zportusa.com/ to see them
Could be a great gift during the holiday season.
Jim
__________________________________
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Russell" <steve@cccparis.com>
You can buy proseal from the Van's websight for less that many places. I'm riviting
mine, but using small solid rivits and a squeezer.
Steve Russell Plans--701 Wings & tanks
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
>Less distortion when riveting.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>>
>> Sure, thats the name, he uses it to seal the seams when riveting... We
>> have never tried it, Larry my brother knows how to weld alminum, se he
>> just told me that welding was esier...
>> I dont weld that well myself (never needed too :-), so if I ever want
>> to make a tank by myself, will be riveted (With A4 rivets).
>>
>> Saludos
>> Gary Gower
>>
>>
>> cgalley <cgalley@qcbc.org> wrote:
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley"
>>
>> Pro-seal is what the RV boys use.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Gary Gower"
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets
>>
>>
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower
>>>
>>> Hello Carlos,
>>>
>>> I am sure I have a note from one list, about building riveted tanks,
>>> including the name of the sealant to use betwen the two pieces (something
>>> like a liquid gasket).
>>>
>>> I cant remeber in the computer I have it... (office, home or laptop)
>>>
>>> What I remember is that was writen by Mr Bob Hoover (the other Bob), he
>>> is a VW engine expert.
>>>
>>> If you think you can learn something from this notes, I will look for it
>>> monday. Hope still is there.
>>>
>>> Saludos
>>> Gary Gower.
>>>
>>> Carlos Sa wrote:
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
>>>
>>> Hi, Paul
>>>
>>> Normal is relative - this is the way RV tanks are built (with *solid*
>>> rivets I admit). And other people on this list also have done it also.
>>>
>>> BTW, I'm not going to change my mind - all the (6061-T6, 0.032") parts
>>> are
>>> cut and bent to shape and they fit nicely... :o)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Carlos
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul Mulwitz
>>> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>
>>> Is there some reason you want to rivet the gas tank? The normal way
>>> to build one of these from metal is to have it welded.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> XL Wings
>>> Do not archive
>>>
>>> At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
>>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
>>>>
>>>>Hello, all
>>>>
>>>> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start
>>>> drilling rivet holes.
>>>>
>>>> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received
>>>> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the
>>>> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem
>>>> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it.
>>>> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks
>>>> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should
>>>> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does
>>>> not form properly.
>>>> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble
>>>> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o)
>>>>
>>>> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my
>>>> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...???
>>>> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42)
>>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php
>>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Carlos
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Let fate take it's course directly to your email.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: HeatonHE@aol.com
In a message dated 12/3/2005 1:02:23 AM Mountain Standard Time,
zenith-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received from AS&S, and
something un-funny is happening: if I use the smaller riveter head / nozzle
(the
one for A4s), the rivet stem gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come
out until I disassemble it.
Carlos,
I just finished my riveted tanks and also had problems with the rivets. I
used AD42H203 blind rivets from McMaster-Carr. The problem I had was the
mandrels snapped inside the puller leaving about 1/2" of the mandrel sticking out
of
the rivet. This happened to about 20% of the rivets pulled. I determined
that the rivet head was properly formed so I just cut off the protruding mandrel
with diagonal cutters. It seems that the tensile strength of the mandrel
where it is notched in the rivet is greater than the serration's made by the jaws
of the puller. Does that make any sense?? I found that when one of the
mandrels broke short that I could clear it by holding the puller straight up and
pulling the trigger a couple of times. The short mandrel would usually fall
out the back end. I kept a pair of pliers handy to pull out the mandrels that
got stuck but were protruding from the front of the puller. Be careful to not
get any Pro-Seal on the rivet mandrel or it will get inside the jaws of your
puller and then you have to dismantle it and clean with acetone or MEK. Also
use the lowest air pressure you can that will still pop the mandrel.
Good luck,
Herb Heaton
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets - Shank releasing. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Carlos,
I want to respond to the question about the riveter getting jammed.
If you look at the different nose pieces for your riveter you will
see that the length of the threaded part increases as the hole size
for the rivet shank increases. This limits the travel of the
internal teeth to set the final opening space for the rivet shank.
That all means if you use a nose piece with a larger hole it will
release larger shanks after setting the rivets.
Good luck,
Paul
XL wings
At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
>
>Hello, all
>
> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start
> drilling rivet holes.
>
> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received
> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the
> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem
> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it.
> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks
> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should
> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does
> not form properly.
> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble
> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o)
>
> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my
> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...???
> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42)
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php
>
> Regards
>
> Carlos
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Hi, Bill
Yes, Cherry Q rivets are self-sealing - that's why they were chosen insteadof
our regular A4/A5s.
Carlo
Bill Pagan <pdn8r@yahoo.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Pagan
In RV tanks the pro-seal (more commonly referred to as "black death") works very
well. I am uncertain about the use of cherry rivets since with the RV tanks
solid rivets are used. Are the cherry rivets self sealing or only used on
outside flanges? On the RV the inboard leading edge of the wing is actually the
fuel tank. Built mine (don't wanna do that again) and no leaks using the pro-seal
but very messy. There are rivets available that are self sealing.
Bill Pagan
---------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | [ Jim Pellien ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Jim Pellien <jim@pellien.com>
Lists: Zenith-List
Subject: Pre-Heating the 601XL SLSA
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/jim@pellien.com.12.03.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | 601 HDS for sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sykes, Greg (AGRE)" <Greg.Sykes@smiths-aerospace.com>
Zodiac 601HDS For Sale
Contact: greg.sykes(at)smiths-aerospace.com
This is a standard tri-gear kit (#3624) built per plans with options
noted below.
There are no user modifications. Photos are available upon request.
Standard Options:
- Electric elevator trim
- pilot/passenger entry steps
Options and Extras:
- Dual brakes (passenger and pilot)
- Wing tanks
- 8 gal. fuselage tank
- Wing baggage lockers
- Nav/Strobe lights
- XL forward hinge canopy
- Rotax 912S motor mount
- Rotax 912S firewall forward installation plans
- Extra set of rudder peddles (pilot side brake only) and side hinge
canopy components.
Status:
- Tail (100%) Internally primed with Zinc Chromate. Wired for electric
elevator trim (servo currently removed).
- Outboard Wings (100%) Internally primed with Zinc Chromate. Wired for
Nav/Strobe (lights currently removed).
- Rear fuselage (100%) Internally primed with Zinc Chromate.
- Center wing and fuselage (90%) Drilled and clecoed with rear fuselage.
Remaining airframe work:
- Rivet center wing section/fuselage.
- Install landing gear
- Install canopy
No missing or damaged parts. Complete plans. The original parts
inventory that came with the kit can be used to
confirm that all parts are accounted for.
Asking $18,000 obo. Save over $6,000 compared to XL quick build and be
equal or farther along. There is enough
work that you should be able to get your repairman certificate, but
you're much further along than the
standard kit.
******************************************
The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential
information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity
to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have
received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply
e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager.
Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other
person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of
the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient
should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses.
The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly,
by any virus transmitted in this email.
******************************************
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Hello, all
I figured things out.
I bought a new rivet tool, which does work with the Q rivets. I had to buy one
anyway, as the heads of the older one have been made concave as per Chris
Heintz directions.
Note they are both the same brand - I thought the heads would be similar, so
they would be exchangeable. They aren't but they are... Read on...
See picture: http://www3.sympatico.ca/c.sa/cq_tools.jpg
To the right is the old tool (the masking tape is there to avoid scratching the
aluminium when manoeuvring in tight places).
The new one is to the left. You can also see the two heads discussed, one from
the old tool (short) and one from the new tool (long).
A test piece is visible on the bottom right corner: it was made with two pieces
of 6061-T6 0.032" thick, same as the fuel tank.
Near it, a Q rivets after popped - note that a 3 mm piece of the shank is protruding.
This only happened when popping the rivet with no sustaining material.
A close-up view of the test piece (with one additional rivet) is posted here:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/c.sa/cq_test.jpg
Rivets number 2 and 3 were installed with the new tool. They look ok, but there
is a small piece of the shank protruding above the head's profile. Not nice.
Rivet 4 was installed with the *old* riveter using the smallest flat head the
tool had (this would be me improvising, in case I had not bought the new tool).
It works fairly well, but the larger hole in that head leaves a mark on the
rivet head - - plus, there is again a piece of the shank protruding.
Number 5 was done with the concave (i.e., C Heintz's design) head. It works
fine, but I would be nervous pioneering its use on Cherry rivets.
Finally, number 1 was done with the *old* riveter and the right size head from
the new tool (the one seen on the left of Tools picture). The result is perfect,
and this is the setup I'll be using.
Looks like the rivet stem only gets stuck in the old tool because the rivet
did not have any material to grip (yes, I was testing in the air - after all,
it works with A4 and A5s...). (Once again, the defective component of the tool
is the operator...).
Also, the stem in Q 42 has a larger diameter than A4. See measurements below.
Diameters measured:
cherry
stem - 1.88 mm / 0.074"
rivet - 3.15 mm / 0.124"
For comparison:
A4
stem - 1.73 mm / 0.068"
rivet - 3.12 mm / 0.122"
A5
stem - 2.10 mm / 0.082"
rivet - 3.86 mm / 0.152"
Thanks kindly to all that submitted suggestions - even if the solution did not
come directly from the postings, it is comforting to have other builders'
input. This is great moral support - something not to be underestimated!
Happy building
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Montreal, Canada
---------------------------------
Message 15
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| Subject: | Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I believe
for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a positive and
negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic fields cancel out.
Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable
magnetic cancel":
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp
http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm:
"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields caused by
using the aircraft's structure for the current return path (ground) back to
the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and acts as a bar magnet. Such
currents, if strong enough, can magnetize the aircraft structure. Modern
Light-weight starters in 12 volt aircraft draw very high current loads. Be
sure that you have a adequate (robust) grounding path back to the starter."
I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero Electric site
but I can't find it.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor verdev
Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area.
Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid.
Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from battery
going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235 Lyc. would
be appreciated.
__________________________________
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
Carlos-
Good work- you're starting to get the mind set of an engineer.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Sa" <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello, all
>
> I figured things out.
> I bought a new rivet tool, which does work with the Q rivets. I had to
buy one anyway, as the heads of the older one have been made concave as per
Chris Heintz directions.
> Note they are both the same brand - I thought the heads would be
similar, so they would be exchangeable. They aren't but they are... Read
on...
>
> See picture: http://www3.sympatico.ca/c.sa/cq_tools.jpg
> To the right is the old tool (the masking tape is there to avoid
scratching the aluminium when manoeuvring in tight places).
> The new one is to the left. You can also see the two heads discussed,
one from the old tool (short) and one from the new tool (long).
>
> A test piece is visible on the bottom right corner: it was made with
two pieces of 6061-T6 0.032" thick, same as the fuel tank.
> Near it, a Q rivets after popped - note that a 3 mm piece of the shank
is protruding. This only happened when popping the rivet with no
sustaining material.
>
> A close-up view of the test piece (with one additional rivet) is posted
here:
> http://www3.sympatico.ca/c.sa/cq_test.jpg
> Rivets number 2 and 3 were installed with the new tool. They look ok,
but there is a small piece of the shank protruding above the head's
profile. Not nice.
> Rivet 4 was installed with the *old* riveter using the smallest flat
head the tool had (this would be me improvising, in case I had not bought
the new tool). It works fairly well, but the larger hole in that head
leaves a mark on the rivet head - - plus, there is again a piece of the
shank protruding.
> Number 5 was done with the concave (i.e., C Heintz's design) head. It
works fine, but I would be nervous pioneering its use on Cherry rivets.
> Finally, number 1 was done with the *old* riveter and the right size
head from the new tool (the one seen on the left of Tools picture). The
result is perfect, and this is the setup I'll be using.
>
> Looks like the rivet stem only gets stuck in the old tool because the
rivet did not have any material to grip (yes, I was testing in the air -
after all, it works with A4 and A5s...). (Once again, the defective
component of the tool is the operator...).
> Also, the stem in Q 42 has a larger diameter than A4. See measurements
below.
>
> Diameters measured:
> cherry
> stem - 1.88 mm / 0.074"
> rivet - 3.15 mm / 0.124"
>
> For comparison:
> A4
> stem - 1.73 mm / 0.068"
> rivet - 3.12 mm / 0.122"
>
> A5
> stem - 2.10 mm / 0.082"
> rivet - 3.86 mm / 0.152"
>
> Thanks kindly to all that submitted suggestions - even if the solution
did not come directly from the postings, it is comforting to have other
builders' input. This is great moral support - something not to be
underestimated!
>
> Happy building
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> Montreal, Canada
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
it's about time: I finished the course 29 years ago... :o)
Carlos
do not archive
bill naumuk <billn@velocity.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill
naumuk"
Carlos-
Good work- you're starting to get the mind set of an engineer.
Bill
---------------------------------
Message 18
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| Subject: | Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Craig,
I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link
didn't work for me.
I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what
conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned
in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the
other hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when
it is important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well.
With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine
for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter
is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized
copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment
to the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight
penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may
gain weight quickly.
The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the
positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If
you run the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the
distance will be small indeed.
My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your
battery a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the
big electricity consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run
a matching ground wire with the battery lead. I would terminate the
negative lead to the metal of the plane near the instrument panel and
starter. If you want to include a ground connection from the point
where the negative lead ends to the starter and to the instrument
panel a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the electronics
world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current
impulses easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing
tips and tail for lights - just include the positive power lead and
let the skin return the current.
I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a
balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane
engineering question.
Good luck,
Paul
XL wings
At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I believe
>for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a positive and
>negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic fields cancel out.
>Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable
>magnetic cancel":
>
>http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp
>
>http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm:
>
>"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields caused by
>using the aircraft's structure for the current return path (ground) back to
>the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and acts as a bar magnet. Such
>currents, if strong enough, can magnetize the aircraft structure. Modern
>Light-weight starters in 12 volt aircraft draw very high current loads. Be
>sure that you have a adequate (robust) grounding path back to the starter."
>
>I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero Electric site
>but I can't find it.
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor verdev
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
>
>I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area.
>Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid.
>Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from battery
>going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235 Lyc. would
>be appreciated.
>
>
>__________________________________
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
The second link was to a long article about degaussing the whole airplane to
make the compass accurate. The worry is not that the momentary field in the
wires will affect the compass but that the transient strong field in the
battery wires will magnetize *other* parts of the of the plane:
"can magnetize the aircraft structure"
I agree that in an aluminum plane there isn't much steel: firewall and motor
mount in a Zodiac. I think this would be more of a factor in a
cloth-and-tube plane.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
--> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Craig,
I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't work
for me.
I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what
conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned in the
article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other hand, the
starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is important for
instruments and electronic stuff to work well.
With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine for a
current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter is a good
exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized copper (or
heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to the starter
that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight penalty so if you get
carried away with this approach your plane may gain weight quickly.
The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the
positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you run
the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance will be
small indeed.
My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your battery
a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big electricity
consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a matching ground wire
with the battery lead. I would terminate the negative lead to the metal of
the plane near the instrument panel and starter. If you want to include a
ground connection from the point where the negative lead ends to the starter
and to the instrument panel a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the
electronics
world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current impulses
easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing tips and tail
for lights - just include the positive power lead and let the skin return
the current.
I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a
balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane
engineering question.
Good luck,
Paul
XL wings
At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
>--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I
>believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a
>positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic
fields cancel out.
>Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable
>magnetic cancel":
>
>http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp
>
>http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm:
>
>"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields caused
>by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path (ground)
>back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and acts as a bar
>magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize the aircraft
>structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt aircraft draw very
>high current loads. Be sure that you have a adequate (robust) grounding
path back to the starter."
>
>I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero Electric
>site but I can't find it.
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor
>verdev
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
>
>I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area.
>Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid.
>Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from
>battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235
>Lyc. would be appreciated.
>
>
>__________________________________
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Craig,
I have been away from flying for a decade or two, but it seems to me
that the whiskey compass is all but obsolete these days. With the
popularity of GPS, it seems to me the only remaining use for magnetic
bearings is to find the proper runway number and to adjust for the
offset in VOR radials.
Of course that assumes the GPS in question is operating on true
bearings rather than magnetic ones. I don't really know if this is
normal or even possible.
Best regards,
Paul
At 07:19 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>The second link was to a long article about degaussing the whole airplane to
>make the compass accurate. The worry is not that the momentary field in the
>wires will affect the compass but that the transient strong field in the
>battery wires will magnetize *other* parts of the of the plane:
>
>"can magnetize the aircraft structure"
>
>I agree that in an aluminum plane there isn't much steel: firewall and motor
>mount in a Zodiac. I think this would be more of a factor in a
>cloth-and-tube plane.
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
>--> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>Hi Craig,
>
>I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't work
>for me.
>
>I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what
>conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned in the
>article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other hand, the
>starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is important for
>instruments and electronic stuff to work well.
>
>With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine for a
>current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter is a good
>exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized copper (or
>heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to the starter
>that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight penalty so if you get
>carried away with this approach your plane may gain weight quickly.
>
>The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the
>positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you run
>the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance will be
>small indeed.
>
>My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your battery
>a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big electricity
>consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a matching ground wire
>with the battery lead. I would terminate the negative lead to the metal of
>the plane near the instrument panel and starter. If you want to include a
>ground connection from the point where the negative lead ends to the starter
>and to the instrument panel a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the
>electronics
>world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current impulses
>easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing tips and tail
>for lights - just include the positive power lead and let the skin return
>the current.
>
>I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a
>balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane
>engineering question.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Paul
>XL wings
>
>
>At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
> >--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
> >
> >Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I
> >believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a
> >positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic
>fields cancel out.
> >Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable
> >magnetic cancel":
> >
> >http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp
> >
> >http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm:
> >
> >"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields caused
> >by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path (ground)
> >back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and acts as a bar
> >magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize the aircraft
> >structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt aircraft draw very
> >high current loads. Be sure that you have a adequate (robust) grounding
>path back to the starter."
> >
> >I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero Electric
> >site but I can't find it.
> >
> >-- Craig
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor
> >verdev
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
> >
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
> >
> >I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area.
> >Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid.
> >Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from
> >battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235
> >Lyc. would be appreciated.
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------
>Paul Mulwitz
>32013 NE Dial Road
>Camas, WA 98607
>---------------------------------------------
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
This may not be true for experimental but aren't magnetic compasses required
on certified aircraft?
A GPS could convert true to magnetic if it had a database of the earth's
magnetic field. Since the field gradually shifts that would be one more
database that Garmin would charge to update. From what little I know I've
never heard of a GPS that could give magnetic heading.
I don't know about expensive panel-mounted GPSs but my GPSMAP 296 only knows
the true course. So I've got a compass and a GPS. My compass may be a three
axis magnetometer in a box with three MEMS gyros and three axis
accelerometer but it is still just a compass:
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/Docs/SP3.pdf
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
--> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Craig,
I have been away from flying for a decade or two, but it seems to me that
the whiskey compass is all but obsolete these days. With the popularity of
GPS, it seems to me the only remaining use for magnetic bearings is to find
the proper runway number and to adjust for the offset in VOR radials.
Of course that assumes the GPS in question is operating on true bearings
rather than magnetic ones. I don't really know if this is normal or even
possible.
Best regards,
Paul
At 07:19 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
>--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>The second link was to a long article about degaussing the whole
>airplane to make the compass accurate. The worry is not that the
>momentary field in the wires will affect the compass but that the
>transient strong field in the battery wires will magnetize *other* parts of
the of the plane:
>
>"can magnetize the aircraft structure"
>
>I agree that in an aluminum plane there isn't much steel: firewall and
>motor mount in a Zodiac. I think this would be more of a factor in a
>cloth-and-tube plane.
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
>Mulwitz
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
>--> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>Hi Craig,
>
>I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't
>work for me.
>
>I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what
>conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned
>in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other
>hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is
>important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well.
>
>With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine
>for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter
>is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized
>copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to
>the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight
>penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may gain
weight quickly.
>
>The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the
>positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you
>run the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance
>will be small indeed.
>
>My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your
>battery a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big
>electricity consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a
>matching ground wire with the battery lead. I would terminate the
>negative lead to the metal of the plane near the instrument panel and
>starter. If you want to include a ground connection from the point
>where the negative lead ends to the starter and to the instrument panel
>a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the electronics
>world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current
>impulses easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing
>tips and tail for lights - just include the positive power lead and let
>the skin return the current.
>
>I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a
>balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane
>engineering question.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Paul
>XL wings
>
>
>At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
> >--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
> >
> >Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I
> >believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a
> >positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the
> >magnetic
>fields cancel out.
> >Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery
> >cable magnetic cancel":
> >
> >http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp
> >
> >http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm:
> >
> >"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields
> >caused by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path
> >(ground) back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and
> >acts as a bar magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize
> >the aircraft structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt
> >aircraft draw very high current loads. Be sure that you have a
> >adequate (robust) grounding
>path back to the starter."
> >
> >I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero
> >Electric site but I can't find it.
> >
> >-- Craig
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor
> >verdev
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
> >
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
> >
> >I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area.
> >Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid.
> >Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from
> >battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using
> >0235 Lyc. would be appreciated.
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------
>Paul Mulwitz
>32013 NE Dial Road
>Camas, WA 98607
>---------------------------------------------
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Craig,
Thanks for the info. I figured the satellite based system was likely
to be based on true north rather than magnetic north.
I suppose a GPS could convert to magnetic headings by knowing where
the magnetic north pole is located and adjusting using the receiver's
known location. On the other hand, why would anybody want magnetic
headings when they are given true course and ground speed on a silver platter?
I think you are right - whiskey compass is still required equipment,
even on experimental planes. At least we don't need to equip each
plane with a buggy whip.
Best regards,
Paul
do not archive
At 08:51 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>This may not be true for experimental but aren't magnetic compasses required
>on certified aircraft?
>
>A GPS could convert true to magnetic if it had a database of the earth's
>magnetic field. Since the field gradually shifts that would be one more
>database that Garmin would charge to update. From what little I know I've
>never heard of a GPS that could give magnetic heading.
>
>I don't know about expensive panel-mounted GPSs but my GPSMAP 296 only knows
>the true course. So I've got a compass and a GPS. My compass may be a three
>axis magnetometer in a box with three MEMS gyros and three axis
>accelerometer but it is still just a compass:
>
>http://www.mglavionics.co.za/Docs/SP3.pdf
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
>--> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>Hi Craig,
>
>I have been away from flying for a decade or two, but it seems to me that
>the whiskey compass is all but obsolete these days. With the popularity of
>GPS, it seems to me the only remaining use for magnetic bearings is to find
>the proper runway number and to adjust for the offset in VOR radials.
>
>Of course that assumes the GPS in question is operating on true bearings
>rather than magnetic ones. I don't really know if this is normal or even
>possible.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Paul
>
>At 07:19 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
> >--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
> >
> >The second link was to a long article about degaussing the whole
> >airplane to make the compass accurate. The worry is not that the
> >momentary field in the wires will affect the compass but that the
> >transient strong field in the battery wires will magnetize *other* parts of
>the of the plane:
> >
> >"can magnetize the aircraft structure"
> >
> >I agree that in an aluminum plane there isn't much steel: firewall and
> >motor mount in a Zodiac. I think this would be more of a factor in a
> >cloth-and-tube plane.
> >
> >-- Craig
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> >Mulwitz
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
> >
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
> >--> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> >
> >Hi Craig,
> >
> >I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't
> >work for me.
> >
> >I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what
> >conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned
> >in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other
> >hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is
> >important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well.
> >
> >With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine
> >for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter
> >is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized
> >copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to
> >the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight
> >penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may gain
>weight quickly.
> >
> >The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the
> >positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you
> >run the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance
> >will be small indeed.
> >
> >My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your
> >battery a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big
> >electricity consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a
> >matching ground wire with the battery lead. I would terminate the
> >negative lead to the metal of the plane near the instrument panel and
> >starter. If you want to include a ground connection from the point
> >where the negative lead ends to the starter and to the instrument panel
> >a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the electronics
> >world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current
> >impulses easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing
> >tips and tail for lights - just include the positive power lead and let
> >the skin return the current.
> >
> >I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a
> >balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane
> >engineering question.
> >
> >Good luck,
> >
> >Paul
> >XL wings
> >
> >
> >At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
> > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
> > >--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
> > >
> > >Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I
> > >believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a
> > >positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the
> > >magnetic
> >fields cancel out.
> > >Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery
> > >cable magnetic cancel":
> > >
> > >http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp
> > >
> > >http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm:
> > >
> > >"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields
> > >caused by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path
> > >(ground) back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and
> > >acts as a bar magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize
> > >the aircraft structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt
> > >aircraft draw very high current loads. Be sure that you have a
> > >adequate (robust) grounding
> >path back to the starter."
> > >
> > >I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero
> > >Electric site but I can't find it.
> > >
> > >-- Craig
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor
> > >verdev
> > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC
> > >
> > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > >I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area.
> > >Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid.
> > >Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from
> > >battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using
> > >0235 Lyc. would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________
> > >
> > >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------
> >Paul Mulwitz
> >32013 NE Dial Road
> >Camas, WA 98607
> >---------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------
>Paul Mulwitz
>32013 NE Dial Road
>Camas, WA 98607
>---------------------------------------------
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: PASSPAT@aol.com
Hi Guys
I recently inspected a 601XL nicely completed W/ 0-235-LC2 and
the small
starter. The bat was in the rear fuse and the master contactor also
mounted
near the bat then two no-4-0 aircraft wires were run to the front one
hooked
to the lower firewall engine mount bolt for the ground also a ground
strap was
added from the engine mount directly to the engine case this completed
the
primary ground side of the bat install.
The A+ short run to the master contactor. Then on to the starter
solenoid
mounted on the fire wall this same terminal is the supply point for
the inside bus
bar depending on load (maybe no-8 aircraft wire). The other terminal
on the
starter solenoid hooks to the starter (if it has its own solenoid wire
it always
closed). Hope this helps with your ?s and I am sure there are other
ways to
get to the same results. If you check the Piper Aircraft this very
much like they
have did the wireing for years.
Pat AB-DAR / A&P / EAA Tech Councilor
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
There should always be a good conductor connected from the battery negative
terminal to the engine block. You do not want to use the aircraft structure
to complete the starter circuit. Most of your instruments and avionics
should also have dedicated ground wires connected to a common point.
I have my battery mounted behind the passenger seat and have a #2 wire from
the negative terminal routed to a brass bolt that passes through the
firewall. The common grounding point for all of the gadgets in my panel is
attached to the firewall by this brass bolt. Forward of the firewall,
another #2 wire connects from the brass bolt to the engine block. The only
circuits using the airframe as the return path are the lights in the wings
and tail.
One thing to keep in mind: Electrical supply wires are made of pure copper
or pure aluminum, the structure of an airplane is made of aluminum or iron
alloys. Alloys are not nearly as good at conducting electricity as pure
metals.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link
> didn't work for me.
>
> I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what
> conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned
> in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the
> other hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when
> it is important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well.
>
> With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine
> for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter
> is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized
> copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment
> to the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight
> penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may
> gain weight quickly.
>
>
> Good luck,
>
> Paul
> XL wings
>
>
> At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>>
>> Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I believe
>> for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a positive and
>> negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic fields cancel out.
>> Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable
>> magnetic cancel":
>>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 12/3/05 11:24 PM, Paul Mulwitz at p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net wrote:
Most GPS units I've seen can be set up to use true headings or magnetic
headings. Even my old hand held Garmin GPS III. I bet if you look through
the setup menu of your 296, you'll find the control that switches between
the two. Any unit designed for air navigation will have the ability to use
magnetic headings because any vector given to you by ATC will be a magnetic
heading.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> I have been away from flying for a decade or two, but it seems to me
> that the whiskey compass is all but obsolete these days. With the
> popularity of GPS, it seems to me the only remaining use for magnetic
> bearings is to find the proper runway number and to adjust for the
> offset in VOR radials.
>
> Of course that assumes the GPS in question is operating on true
> bearings rather than magnetic ones. I don't really know if this is
> normal or even possible.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Paul
>
> At 07:19 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
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