---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/03/05: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets (cgalley) 2. 06:47 AM - Re: Folding Bikes (William Nichelson) 3. 06:47 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks (Gary Gower) 4. 06:53 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets (Bill Pagan) 5. 08:20 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks (cgalley) 6. 08:27 AM - Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (victor verdev) 7. 10:12 AM - Folding Bikes - Under $175 (P.H. Raker) 8. 10:41 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks (Steve Russell) 9. 11:18 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets (HeatonHE@aol.com) 10. 11:24 AM - Re: Cheery Q rivets - Shank releasing. (Paul Mulwitz) 11. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: Cheery Q rivets (Carlos Sa) 12. 12:21 PM - [ Jim Pellien ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 13. 12:41 PM - 601 HDS for sale (Sykes, Greg (AGRE)) 14. 02:24 PM - Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned (Carlos Sa) 15. 04:07 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Craig Payne) 16. 05:43 PM - Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned (bill naumuk) 17. 06:21 PM - Re: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned (Carlos Sa) 18. 06:57 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Paul Mulwitz) 19. 07:19 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Craig Payne) 20. 08:25 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Paul Mulwitz) 21. 08:52 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Craig Payne) 22. 09:49 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Paul Mulwitz) 23. 10:09 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (PASSPAT@aol.com) 24. 11:26 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Bryan Martin) 25. 11:35 PM - Re: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC (Bryan Martin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:02 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Pro-seal is what the RV boys use. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > Hello Carlos, > > I am sure I have a note from one list, about building riveted tanks, > including the name of the sealant to use betwen the two pieces (something > like a liquid gasket). > > I cant remeber in the computer I have it... (office, home or laptop) > > What I remember is that was writen by Mr Bob Hoover (the other Bob), he > is a VW engine expert. > > If you think you can learn something from this notes, I will look for it > monday. Hope still is there. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Hi, Paul > > Normal is relative - this is the way RV tanks are built (with *solid* > rivets I admit). And other people on this list also have done it also. > > BTW, I'm not going to change my mind - all the (6061-T6, 0.032") parts are > cut and bent to shape and they fit nicely... :o) > > Cheers > > Carlos > > > Paul Mulwitz > wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > Hi Carlos, > > Is there some reason you want to rivet the gas tank? The normal way > to build one of these from metal is to have it welded. > > Paul > XL Wings > Do not archive > > At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote: >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa >> >>Hello, all >> >> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start >> drilling rivet holes. >> >> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received >> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the >> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem >> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it. >> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks >> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should >> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does >> not form properly. >> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble >> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o) >> >> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my >> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...??? >> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42) >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php >> >> Regards >> >> Carlos > > > --------------------------------- > Let fate take it's course directly to your email. > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:11 AM PST US From: William Nichelson Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Folding Bikes --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Nichelson I just recently bought two of the 14" folding bikes from Zport. Actually I bought them on Ebay for $95 each, shipping $35. I intend to carry them in my 601HDS when we fly to places like Put In Bay and Kelly's Island on Lake Erie in northern Ohio. These are great places to fly into, but you have to either rent bicycles or golf carts to see the islands. I wanted my own bikes and these were the lightest, smallest folded size I found that were affordable. They ride nicely, but the 3 speeds are geared lower than I would like. I pretty much use high gear all the time. I have not had them in the plane yet, but looking forward to several trips next summer. Bill Nichelson Bellefontaine, Ohio USA Zodiac 601HDS S/N 6-3556 - N132BN - "Casual Passion" 3300 Jabiru Engine, Prince Prop >Time: 06:15:15 AM PST US >From: "jim" >Subject: Zenith-List: Folding Bikes - Under $175 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" > >I just learned about these new folding bikes that are priced a lot lower >than the competition. I know nothing about the company offering these >bikes, nor their quality. But the price is very low. Go to: >http://zportusa.com/ to see them > >Could be a great gift during the holiday season. > >Jim > >Jim Pellien >Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes >www.MASPL.com >703-313-4818 >jim@sportsplanes.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:12 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Sure, thats the name, he uses it to seal the seams when riveting... We have never tried it, Larry my brother knows how to weld alminum, se he just told me that welding was esier... I dont weld that well myself (never needed too :-), so if I ever want to make a tank by myself, will be riveted (With A4 rivets). Saludos Gary Gower cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Pro-seal is what the RV boys use. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > Hello Carlos, > > I am sure I have a note from one list, about building riveted tanks, > including the name of the sealant to use betwen the two pieces (something > like a liquid gasket). > > I cant remeber in the computer I have it... (office, home or laptop) > > What I remember is that was writen by Mr Bob Hoover (the other Bob), he > is a VW engine expert. > > If you think you can learn something from this notes, I will look for it > monday. Hope still is there. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Hi, Paul > > Normal is relative - this is the way RV tanks are built (with *solid* > rivets I admit). And other people on this list also have done it also. > > BTW, I'm not going to change my mind - all the (6061-T6, 0.032") parts are > cut and bent to shape and they fit nicely... :o) > > Cheers > > Carlos > > > Paul Mulwitz > wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > Hi Carlos, > > Is there some reason you want to rivet the gas tank? The normal way > to build one of these from metal is to have it welded. > > Paul > XL Wings > Do not archive > > At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote: >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa >> >>Hello, all >> >> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start >> drilling rivet holes. >> >> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received >> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the >> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem >> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it. >> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks >> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should >> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does >> not form properly. >> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble >> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o) >> >> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my >> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...??? >> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42) >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php >> >> Regards >> >> Carlos > > > --------------------------------- > Let fate take it's course directly to your email. > > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:32 AM PST US From: Bill Pagan Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cheery Q rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Pagan In RV tanks the pro-seal (more commonly referred to as "black death") works very well. I am uncertain about the use of cherry rivets since with the RV tanks solid rivets are used. Are the cherry rivets self sealing or only used on outside flanges? On the RV the inboard leading edge of the wing is actually the fuel tank. Built mine (don't wanna do that again) and no leaks using the pro-seal but very messy. There are rivets available that are self sealing. Bill Pagan Florida http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/9749/william.html --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:51 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Less distortion when riveting. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > Sure, thats the name, he uses it to seal the seams when riveting... We > have never tried it, Larry my brother knows how to weld alminum, se he > just told me that welding was esier... > I dont weld that well myself (never needed too :-), so if I ever want > to make a tank by myself, will be riveted (With A4 rivets). > > Saludos > Gary Gower > > > cgalley wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > Pro-seal is what the RV boys use. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Gower" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower >> >> Hello Carlos, >> >> I am sure I have a note from one list, about building riveted tanks, >> including the name of the sealant to use betwen the two pieces (something >> like a liquid gasket). >> >> I cant remeber in the computer I have it... (office, home or laptop) >> >> What I remember is that was writen by Mr Bob Hoover (the other Bob), he >> is a VW engine expert. >> >> If you think you can learn something from this notes, I will look for it >> monday. Hope still is there. >> >> Saludos >> Gary Gower. >> >> Carlos Sa wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa >> >> Hi, Paul >> >> Normal is relative - this is the way RV tanks are built (with *solid* >> rivets I admit). And other people on this list also have done it also. >> >> BTW, I'm not going to change my mind - all the (6061-T6, 0.032") parts >> are >> cut and bent to shape and they fit nicely... :o) >> >> Cheers >> >> Carlos >> >> >> Paul Mulwitz >> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >> >> >> Hi Carlos, >> >> Is there some reason you want to rivet the gas tank? The normal way >> to build one of these from metal is to have it welded. >> >> Paul >> XL Wings >> Do not archive >> >> At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote: >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa >>> >>>Hello, all >>> >>> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start >>> drilling rivet holes. >>> >>> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received >>> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the >>> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem >>> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it. >>> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks >>> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should >>> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does >>> not form properly. >>> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble >>> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o) >>> >>> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my >>> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...??? >>> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42) >>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php >>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Carlos >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Let fate take it's course directly to your email. >> >> >> > > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:40 AM PST US From: victor verdev Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area. Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid. Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235 Lyc. would be appreciated. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:59 AM PST US From: "P.H. Raker" Subject: Zenith-List: Folding Bikes - Under $175 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "P.H. Raker" Hey, Jim, I also know nothing about that company. The bikes, however, look suspiciously like the Chinese copy (unauthorized) of the Brompton design which has been floating around for several years in other markets. The word that's out on them among folding bike experts is that their quality is awfull! They don't fold very easily, quickly, or small. You must remove parts in order to fold them. The riding qualities are rather poor: lots of frame flex, suspension doesn't work well. On the other hand, the price may be right, but you may get what you pay for. The real Brompton folds small enough that I can put both of them in the aft luggage area of my HDS with room to spare. It folds (or unfolds and is ready to ride) in less than 20 seconds! When folded, all the dirty bits are on the inside. Nothing needs to be removed to fold it, so it's still all in one piece (nothing to get separated or lost). It rides just like a full-sized bike (amazing, but true, even though it has 16" wheels). The quality is superb throughout. It looks as though it's built to last a lifetime. They can be seen at: www.foldabikes.com No, they don't pay me to write this stuff. I'm just that happy with the bikes, and they have to be darn good to satisfy me. I ride a lot. I was so impressed that I bought two of them. I wouldn't hesitate to do a 50 mile ride on my Brompton folding bike. The real Bromptons are certainly more expensive, but then again you get what you pay for, a first-rate bike. And of course, this advice is worth what you paid for it. Phil Raker N556P HDS/Stratus ~85% completed --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" I just learned about these new folding bikes that are priced a lot lower than the competition. I know nothing about the company offering these bikes, nor their quality. But the price is very low. Go to: http://zportusa.com/ to see them Could be a great gift during the holiday season. Jim __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:53 AM PST US From: "Steve Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Russell" You can buy proseal from the Van's websight for less that many places. I'm riviting mine, but using small solid rivits and a squeezer. Steve Russell Plans--701 Wings & tanks ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "cgalley" >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > >Less distortion when riveting. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gary Gower" >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets, Gas Tanks > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower >> >> Sure, thats the name, he uses it to seal the seams when riveting... We >> have never tried it, Larry my brother knows how to weld alminum, se he >> just told me that welding was esier... >> I dont weld that well myself (never needed too :-), so if I ever want >> to make a tank by myself, will be riveted (With A4 rivets). >> >> Saludos >> Gary Gower >> >> >> cgalley wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" >> >> Pro-seal is what the RV boys use. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gary Gower" >> To: >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets >> >> >>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower >>> >>> Hello Carlos, >>> >>> I am sure I have a note from one list, about building riveted tanks, >>> including the name of the sealant to use betwen the two pieces (something >>> like a liquid gasket). >>> >>> I cant remeber in the computer I have it... (office, home or laptop) >>> >>> What I remember is that was writen by Mr Bob Hoover (the other Bob), he >>> is a VW engine expert. >>> >>> If you think you can learn something from this notes, I will look for it >>> monday. Hope still is there. >>> >>> Saludos >>> Gary Gower. >>> >>> Carlos Sa wrote: >>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa >>> >>> Hi, Paul >>> >>> Normal is relative - this is the way RV tanks are built (with *solid* >>> rivets I admit). And other people on this list also have done it also. >>> >>> BTW, I'm not going to change my mind - all the (6061-T6, 0.032") parts >>> are >>> cut and bent to shape and they fit nicely... :o) >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Carlos >>> >>> >>> Paul Mulwitz >>> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >>> >>> >>> Hi Carlos, >>> >>> Is there some reason you want to rivet the gas tank? The normal way >>> to build one of these from metal is to have it welded. >>> >>> Paul >>> XL Wings >>> Do not archive >>> >>> At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote: >>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa >>>> >>>>Hello, all >>>> >>>> I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start >>>> drilling rivet holes. >>>> >>>> Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received >>>> from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the >>>> smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem >>>> gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it. >>>> If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks >>>> properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should >>>> stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does >>>> not form properly. >>>> It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble >>>> the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o) >>>> >>>> Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my >>>> riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...??? >>>> (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42) >>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php >>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Carlos >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Let fate take it's course directly to your email. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:35 AM PST US From: HeatonHE@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: HeatonHE@aol.com In a message dated 12/3/2005 1:02:23 AM Mountain Standard Time, zenith-list-digest@matronics.com writes: Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it. Carlos, I just finished my riveted tanks and also had problems with the rivets. I used AD42H203 blind rivets from McMaster-Carr. The problem I had was the mandrels snapped inside the puller leaving about 1/2" of the mandrel sticking out of the rivet. This happened to about 20% of the rivets pulled. I determined that the rivet head was properly formed so I just cut off the protruding mandrel with diagonal cutters. It seems that the tensile strength of the mandrel where it is notched in the rivet is greater than the serration's made by the jaws of the puller. Does that make any sense?? I found that when one of the mandrels broke short that I could clear it by holding the puller straight up and pulling the trigger a couple of times. The short mandrel would usually fall out the back end. I kept a pair of pliers handy to pull out the mandrels that got stuck but were protruding from the front of the puller. Be careful to not get any Pro-Seal on the rivet mandrel or it will get inside the jaws of your puller and then you have to dismantle it and clean with acetone or MEK. Also use the lowest air pressure you can that will still pop the mandrel. Good luck, Herb Heaton Do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:19 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets - Shank releasing. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Carlos, I want to respond to the question about the riveter getting jammed. If you look at the different nose pieces for your riveter you will see that the length of the threaded part increases as the hole size for the rivet shank increases. This limits the travel of the internal teeth to set the final opening space for the rivet shank. That all means if you use a nose piece with a larger hole it will release larger shanks after setting the rivets. Good luck, Paul XL wings At 09:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > >Hello, all > > I am building a riveted fuel tank, and I am pretty close to start > drilling rivet holes. > > Last night I decided to check the Cherry Q rivets I received > from AS&S, and something un-funny is happening: if I use the > smaller riveter head / nozzle (the one for A4s), the rivet stem > gets stuck in the tool, and it doesn't come out until I disassemble it. > If I use the larger head / nozzle (for A5s), the stem breaks > properly and falls off the tool, but the stem part that should > stay in the rivet's head falls off. It seems the rivet's head does > not form properly. > It'll take too long to rivet the tank if I have to disassemble > the tool every time I pop a rivet, so I need to find a solution... :o) > > Is there a different tool for popping Cheery rivets? Is my > riveter busted (it does work with regular Avex rivets...)? Or...??? > (These are Cheery Q rivets, BSPQ 42) > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivetpricetable.php > > Regards > > Carlos > > >--------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:29 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cheery Q rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hi, Bill Yes, Cherry Q rivets are self-sealing - that's why they were chosen insteadof our regular A4/A5s. Carlo Bill Pagan wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Pagan In RV tanks the pro-seal (more commonly referred to as "black death") works very well. I am uncertain about the use of cherry rivets since with the RV tanks solid rivets are used. Are the cherry rivets self sealing or only used on outside flanges? On the RV the inboard leading edge of the wing is actually the fuel tank. Built mine (don't wanna do that again) and no leaks using the pro-seal but very messy. There are rivets available that are self sealing. Bill Pagan --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [ Jim Pellien ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Jim Pellien Lists: Zenith-List Subject: Pre-Heating the 601XL SLSA http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/jim@pellien.com.12.03.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601 HDS for sale From: "Sykes, Greg (AGRE)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sykes, Greg (AGRE)" Zodiac 601HDS For Sale Contact: greg.sykes(at)smiths-aerospace.com This is a standard tri-gear kit (#3624) built per plans with options noted below. There are no user modifications. Photos are available upon request. Standard Options: - Electric elevator trim - pilot/passenger entry steps Options and Extras: - Dual brakes (passenger and pilot) - Wing tanks - 8 gal. fuselage tank - Wing baggage lockers - Nav/Strobe lights - XL forward hinge canopy - Rotax 912S motor mount - Rotax 912S firewall forward installation plans - Extra set of rudder peddles (pilot side brake only) and side hinge canopy components. Status: - Tail (100%) Internally primed with Zinc Chromate. Wired for electric elevator trim (servo currently removed). - Outboard Wings (100%) Internally primed with Zinc Chromate. Wired for Nav/Strobe (lights currently removed). - Rear fuselage (100%) Internally primed with Zinc Chromate. - Center wing and fuselage (90%) Drilled and clecoed with rear fuselage. Remaining airframe work: - Rivet center wing section/fuselage. - Install landing gear - Install canopy No missing or damaged parts. Complete plans. The original parts inventory that came with the kit can be used to confirm that all parts are accounted for. Asking $18,000 obo. Save over $6,000 compared to XL quick build and be equal or farther along. There is enough work that you should be able to get your repairman certificate, but you're much further along than the standard kit. ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:46 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, all I figured things out. I bought a new rivet tool, which does work with the Q rivets. I had to buy one anyway, as the heads of the older one have been made concave as per Chris Heintz directions. Note they are both the same brand - I thought the heads would be similar, so they would be exchangeable. They aren't but they are... Read on... See picture: http://www3.sympatico.ca/c.sa/cq_tools.jpg To the right is the old tool (the masking tape is there to avoid scratching the aluminium when manoeuvring in tight places). The new one is to the left. You can also see the two heads discussed, one from the old tool (short) and one from the new tool (long). A test piece is visible on the bottom right corner: it was made with two pieces of 6061-T6 0.032" thick, same as the fuel tank. Near it, a Q rivets after popped - note that a 3 mm piece of the shank is protruding. This only happened when popping the rivet with no sustaining material. A close-up view of the test piece (with one additional rivet) is posted here: http://www3.sympatico.ca/c.sa/cq_test.jpg Rivets number 2 and 3 were installed with the new tool. They look ok, but there is a small piece of the shank protruding above the head's profile. Not nice. Rivet 4 was installed with the *old* riveter using the smallest flat head the tool had (this would be me improvising, in case I had not bought the new tool). It works fairly well, but the larger hole in that head leaves a mark on the rivet head - - plus, there is again a piece of the shank protruding. Number 5 was done with the concave (i.e., C Heintz's design) head. It works fine, but I would be nervous pioneering its use on Cherry rivets. Finally, number 1 was done with the *old* riveter and the right size head from the new tool (the one seen on the left of Tools picture). The result is perfect, and this is the setup I'll be using. Looks like the rivet stem only gets stuck in the old tool because the rivet did not have any material to grip (yes, I was testing in the air - after all, it works with A4 and A5s...). (Once again, the defective component of the tool is the operator...). Also, the stem in Q 42 has a larger diameter than A4. See measurements below. Diameters measured: cherry stem - 1.88 mm / 0.074" rivet - 3.15 mm / 0.124" For comparison: A4 stem - 1.73 mm / 0.068" rivet - 3.12 mm / 0.122" A5 stem - 2.10 mm / 0.082" rivet - 3.86 mm / 0.152" Thanks kindly to all that submitted suggestions - even if the solution did not come directly from the postings, it is comforting to have other builders' input. This is great moral support - something not to be underestimated! Happy building Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:13 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic fields cancel out. Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable magnetic cancel": http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm: "Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields caused by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path (ground) back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and acts as a bar magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize the aircraft structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt aircraft draw very high current loads. Be sure that you have a adequate (robust) grounding path back to the starter." I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero Electric site but I can't find it. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor verdev Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area. Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid. Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235 Lyc. would be appreciated. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:57 PM PST US From: "bill naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned --> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" Carlos- Good work- you're starting to get the mind set of an engineer. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Hello, all > > I figured things out. > I bought a new rivet tool, which does work with the Q rivets. I had to buy one anyway, as the heads of the older one have been made concave as per Chris Heintz directions. > Note they are both the same brand - I thought the heads would be similar, so they would be exchangeable. They aren't but they are... Read on... > > See picture: http://www3.sympatico.ca/c.sa/cq_tools.jpg > To the right is the old tool (the masking tape is there to avoid scratching the aluminium when manoeuvring in tight places). > The new one is to the left. You can also see the two heads discussed, one from the old tool (short) and one from the new tool (long). > > A test piece is visible on the bottom right corner: it was made with two pieces of 6061-T6 0.032" thick, same as the fuel tank. > Near it, a Q rivets after popped - note that a 3 mm piece of the shank is protruding. This only happened when popping the rivet with no sustaining material. > > A close-up view of the test piece (with one additional rivet) is posted here: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/c.sa/cq_test.jpg > Rivets number 2 and 3 were installed with the new tool. They look ok, but there is a small piece of the shank protruding above the head's profile. Not nice. > Rivet 4 was installed with the *old* riveter using the smallest flat head the tool had (this would be me improvising, in case I had not bought the new tool). It works fairly well, but the larger hole in that head leaves a mark on the rivet head - - plus, there is again a piece of the shank protruding. > Number 5 was done with the concave (i.e., C Heintz's design) head. It works fine, but I would be nervous pioneering its use on Cherry rivets. > Finally, number 1 was done with the *old* riveter and the right size head from the new tool (the one seen on the left of Tools picture). The result is perfect, and this is the setup I'll be using. > > Looks like the rivet stem only gets stuck in the old tool because the rivet did not have any material to grip (yes, I was testing in the air - after all, it works with A4 and A5s...). (Once again, the defective component of the tool is the operator...). > Also, the stem in Q 42 has a larger diameter than A4. See measurements below. > > Diameters measured: > cherry > stem - 1.88 mm / 0.074" > rivet - 3.15 mm / 0.124" > > For comparison: > A4 > stem - 1.73 mm / 0.068" > rivet - 3.12 mm / 0.122" > > A5 > stem - 2.10 mm / 0.082" > rivet - 3.86 mm / 0.152" > > Thanks kindly to all that submitted suggestions - even if the solution did not come directly from the postings, it is comforting to have other builders' input. This is great moral support - something not to be underestimated! > > Happy building > > Carlos > CH601-HD, plans > Montreal, Canada > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:35 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheery Q rivets - Lessons learned --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa it's about time: I finished the course 29 years ago... :o) Carlos do not archive bill naumuk wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" Carlos- Good work- you're starting to get the mind set of an engineer. Bill --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:07 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Craig, I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't work for me. I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well. With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may gain weight quickly. The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you run the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance will be small indeed. My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your battery a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big electricity consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a matching ground wire with the battery lead. I would terminate the negative lead to the metal of the plane near the instrument panel and starter. If you want to include a ground connection from the point where the negative lead ends to the starter and to the instrument panel a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the electronics world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current impulses easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing tips and tail for lights - just include the positive power lead and let the skin return the current. I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane engineering question. Good luck, Paul XL wings At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I believe >for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a positive and >negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic fields cancel out. >Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable >magnetic cancel": > >http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp > >http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm: > >"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields caused by >using the aircraft's structure for the current return path (ground) back to >the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and acts as a bar magnet. Such >currents, if strong enough, can magnetize the aircraft structure. Modern >Light-weight starters in 12 volt aircraft draw very high current loads. Be >sure that you have a adequate (robust) grounding path back to the starter." > >I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero Electric site >but I can't find it. > >-- Craig > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor verdev >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev > >I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area. >Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid. >Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from battery >going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235 Lyc. would >be appreciated. > > >__________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:54 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" The second link was to a long article about degaussing the whole airplane to make the compass accurate. The worry is not that the momentary field in the wires will affect the compass but that the transient strong field in the battery wires will magnetize *other* parts of the of the plane: "can magnetize the aircraft structure" I agree that in an aluminum plane there isn't much steel: firewall and motor mount in a Zodiac. I think this would be more of a factor in a cloth-and-tube plane. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz --> Hi Craig, I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't work for me. I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well. With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may gain weight quickly. The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you run the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance will be small indeed. My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your battery a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big electricity consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a matching ground wire with the battery lead. I would terminate the negative lead to the metal of the plane near the instrument panel and starter. If you want to include a ground connection from the point where the negative lead ends to the starter and to the instrument panel a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the electronics world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current impulses easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing tips and tail for lights - just include the positive power lead and let the skin return the current. I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane engineering question. Good luck, Paul XL wings At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" >--> > >Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I >believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a >positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic fields cancel out. >Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable >magnetic cancel": > >http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp > >http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm: > >"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields caused >by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path (ground) >back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and acts as a bar >magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize the aircraft >structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt aircraft draw very >high current loads. Be sure that you have a adequate (robust) grounding path back to the starter." > >I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero Electric >site but I can't find it. > >-- Craig > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor >verdev >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev > >I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area. >Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid. >Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from >battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235 >Lyc. would be appreciated. > > >__________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:33 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Craig, I have been away from flying for a decade or two, but it seems to me that the whiskey compass is all but obsolete these days. With the popularity of GPS, it seems to me the only remaining use for magnetic bearings is to find the proper runway number and to adjust for the offset in VOR radials. Of course that assumes the GPS in question is operating on true bearings rather than magnetic ones. I don't really know if this is normal or even possible. Best regards, Paul At 07:19 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >The second link was to a long article about degaussing the whole airplane to >make the compass accurate. The worry is not that the momentary field in the >wires will affect the compass but that the transient strong field in the >battery wires will magnetize *other* parts of the of the plane: > >"can magnetize the aircraft structure" > >I agree that in an aluminum plane there isn't much steel: firewall and motor >mount in a Zodiac. I think this would be more of a factor in a >cloth-and-tube plane. > >-- Craig > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >--> > >Hi Craig, > >I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't work >for me. > >I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what >conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned in the >article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other hand, the >starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is important for >instruments and electronic stuff to work well. > >With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine for a >current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter is a good >exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized copper (or >heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to the starter >that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight penalty so if you get >carried away with this approach your plane may gain weight quickly. > >The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the >positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you run >the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance will be >small indeed. > >My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your battery >a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big electricity >consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a matching ground wire >with the battery lead. I would terminate the negative lead to the metal of >the plane near the instrument panel and starter. If you want to include a >ground connection from the point where the negative lead ends to the starter >and to the instrument panel a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the >electronics >world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current impulses >easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing tips and tail >for lights - just include the positive power lead and let the skin return >the current. > >I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a >balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane >engineering question. > >Good luck, > >Paul >XL wings > > >At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >--> > > > >Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I > >believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a > >positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic >fields cancel out. > >Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable > >magnetic cancel": > > > >http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp > > > >http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm: > > > >"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields caused > >by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path (ground) > >back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and acts as a bar > >magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize the aircraft > >structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt aircraft draw very > >high current loads. Be sure that you have a adequate (robust) grounding >path back to the starter." > > > >I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero Electric > >site but I can't find it. > > > >-- Craig > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor > >verdev > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev > > > >I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area. > >Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid. > >Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from > >battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using 0235 > >Lyc. would be appreciated. > > > > > >__________________________________ > > > > > >--------------------------------------------- >Paul Mulwitz >32013 NE Dial Road >Camas, WA 98607 >--------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:47 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" This may not be true for experimental but aren't magnetic compasses required on certified aircraft? A GPS could convert true to magnetic if it had a database of the earth's magnetic field. Since the field gradually shifts that would be one more database that Garmin would charge to update. From what little I know I've never heard of a GPS that could give magnetic heading. I don't know about expensive panel-mounted GPSs but my GPSMAP 296 only knows the true course. So I've got a compass and a GPS. My compass may be a three axis magnetometer in a box with three MEMS gyros and three axis accelerometer but it is still just a compass: http://www.mglavionics.co.za/Docs/SP3.pdf -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz --> Hi Craig, I have been away from flying for a decade or two, but it seems to me that the whiskey compass is all but obsolete these days. With the popularity of GPS, it seems to me the only remaining use for magnetic bearings is to find the proper runway number and to adjust for the offset in VOR radials. Of course that assumes the GPS in question is operating on true bearings rather than magnetic ones. I don't really know if this is normal or even possible. Best regards, Paul At 07:19 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" >--> > >The second link was to a long article about degaussing the whole >airplane to make the compass accurate. The worry is not that the >momentary field in the wires will affect the compass but that the >transient strong field in the battery wires will magnetize *other* parts of the of the plane: > >"can magnetize the aircraft structure" > >I agree that in an aluminum plane there isn't much steel: firewall and >motor mount in a Zodiac. I think this would be more of a factor in a >cloth-and-tube plane. > >-- Craig > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul >Mulwitz >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >--> > >Hi Craig, > >I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't >work for me. > >I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what >conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned >in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other >hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is >important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well. > >With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine >for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter >is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized >copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to >the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight >penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may gain weight quickly. > >The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the >positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you >run the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance >will be small indeed. > >My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your >battery a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big >electricity consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a >matching ground wire with the battery lead. I would terminate the >negative lead to the metal of the plane near the instrument panel and >starter. If you want to include a ground connection from the point >where the negative lead ends to the starter and to the instrument panel >a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the electronics >world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current >impulses easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing >tips and tail for lights - just include the positive power lead and let >the skin return the current. > >I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a >balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane >engineering question. > >Good luck, > >Paul >XL wings > > >At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >--> > > > >Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I > >believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a > >positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the > >magnetic >fields cancel out. > >Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery > >cable magnetic cancel": > > > >http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp > > > >http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm: > > > >"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields > >caused by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path > >(ground) back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and > >acts as a bar magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize > >the aircraft structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt > >aircraft draw very high current loads. Be sure that you have a > >adequate (robust) grounding >path back to the starter." > > > >I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero > >Electric site but I can't find it. > > > >-- Craig > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor > >verdev > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev > > > >I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area. > >Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid. > >Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from > >battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using > >0235 Lyc. would be appreciated. > > > > > >__________________________________ > > > > > >--------------------------------------------- >Paul Mulwitz >32013 NE Dial Road >Camas, WA 98607 >--------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:37 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Craig, Thanks for the info. I figured the satellite based system was likely to be based on true north rather than magnetic north. I suppose a GPS could convert to magnetic headings by knowing where the magnetic north pole is located and adjusting using the receiver's known location. On the other hand, why would anybody want magnetic headings when they are given true course and ground speed on a silver platter? I think you are right - whiskey compass is still required equipment, even on experimental planes. At least we don't need to equip each plane with a buggy whip. Best regards, Paul do not archive At 08:51 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >This may not be true for experimental but aren't magnetic compasses required >on certified aircraft? > >A GPS could convert true to magnetic if it had a database of the earth's >magnetic field. Since the field gradually shifts that would be one more >database that Garmin would charge to update. From what little I know I've >never heard of a GPS that could give magnetic heading. > >I don't know about expensive panel-mounted GPSs but my GPSMAP 296 only knows >the true course. So I've got a compass and a GPS. My compass may be a three >axis magnetometer in a box with three MEMS gyros and three axis >accelerometer but it is still just a compass: > >http://www.mglavionics.co.za/Docs/SP3.pdf > >-- Craig > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >--> > >Hi Craig, > >I have been away from flying for a decade or two, but it seems to me that >the whiskey compass is all but obsolete these days. With the popularity of >GPS, it seems to me the only remaining use for magnetic bearings is to find >the proper runway number and to adjust for the offset in VOR radials. > >Of course that assumes the GPS in question is operating on true bearings >rather than magnetic ones. I don't really know if this is normal or even >possible. > >Best regards, > >Paul > >At 07:19 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >--> > > > >The second link was to a long article about degaussing the whole > >airplane to make the compass accurate. The worry is not that the > >momentary field in the wires will affect the compass but that the > >transient strong field in the battery wires will magnetize *other* parts of >the of the plane: > > > >"can magnetize the aircraft structure" > > > >I agree that in an aluminum plane there isn't much steel: firewall and > >motor mount in a Zodiac. I think this would be more of a factor in a > >cloth-and-tube plane. > > > >-- Craig > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul > >Mulwitz > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >--> > > > >Hi Craig, > > > >I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link didn't > >work for me. > > > >I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what > >conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned > >in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the other > >hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when it is > >important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well. > > > >With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine > >for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter > >is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized > >copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment to > >the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight > >penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may gain >weight quickly. > > > >The loop mentioned in the article refers to the distance between the > >positive lead from the battery and the negative "Ground" lead. If you > >run the general wiring for the plane near the skin then the distance > >will be small indeed. > > > >My first guess at a nice solution to this problem: If mounting your > >battery a long distance from the starter and instrument panel (the big > >electricity consumers in a plane) then it seems reasonable to run a > >matching ground wire with the battery lead. I would terminate the > >negative lead to the metal of the plane near the instrument panel and > >starter. If you want to include a ground connection from the point > >where the negative lead ends to the starter and to the instrument panel > >a large woven mesh would be a normal way (in the electronics > >world) to do that. It is not very heavy and conducts high current > >impulses easily. I wouldn't worry about the current sent to the wing > >tips and tail for lights - just include the positive power lead and let > >the skin return the current. > > > >I am sorry if I didn't really answer your question. It is really a > >balancing act between weight and function - just like every airplane > >engineering question. > > > >Good luck, > > > >Paul > >XL wings > > > > > >At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > > >--> > > > > > >Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I > > >believe for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a > > >positive and negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the > > >magnetic > >fields cancel out. > > >Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery > > >cable magnetic cancel": > > > > > >http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/338/docserve.asp > > > > > >http://www.sacskyranch.com/degaussi.htm: > > > > > >"Another problem you might encounter is external magnetic fields > > >caused by using the aircraft's structure for the current return path > > >(ground) back to the battery. Your aircraft becomes a solenoid and > > >acts as a bar magnet. Such currents, if strong enough, can magnetize > > >the aircraft structure. Modern Light-weight starters in 12 volt > > >aircraft draw very high current loads. Be sure that you have a > > >adequate (robust) grounding > >path back to the starter." > > > > > >I believe there is something about this in Bob Nuckolls' Aero > > >Electric site but I can't find it. > > > > > >-- Craig > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of victor > > >verdev > > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > >Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC > > > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev > > > > > >I've started wiring, so far have battery cable run to rear fuselage area. > > >Using Sky Tec starter with built in solenoid. > > >Where is best place to feed Panel, since Sky Tec shows cable from > > >battery going directly to starter? Any advice on how to wire using > > >0235 Lyc. would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Paul Mulwitz > >32013 NE Dial Road > >Camas, WA 98607 > >--------------------------------------------- > > > > > >--------------------------------------------- >Paul Mulwitz >32013 NE Dial Road >Camas, WA 98607 >--------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:47 PM PST US From: PASSPAT@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC --> Zenith-List message posted by: PASSPAT@aol.com Hi Guys I recently inspected a 601XL nicely completed W/ 0-235-LC2 and the small starter. The bat was in the rear fuse and the master contactor also mounted near the bat then two no-4-0 aircraft wires were run to the front one hooked to the lower firewall engine mount bolt for the ground also a ground strap was added from the engine mount directly to the engine case this completed the primary ground side of the bat install. The A+ short run to the master contactor. Then on to the starter solenoid mounted on the fire wall this same terminal is the supply point for the inside bus bar depending on load (maybe no-8 aircraft wire). The other terminal on the starter solenoid hooks to the starter (if it has its own solenoid wire it always closed). Hope this helps with your ?s and I am sure there are other ways to get to the same results. If you check the Piper Aircraft this very much like they have did the wireing for years. Pat AB-DAR / A&P / EAA Tech Councilor ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin There should always be a good conductor connected from the battery negative terminal to the engine block. You do not want to use the aircraft structure to complete the starter circuit. Most of your instruments and avionics should also have dedicated ground wires connected to a common point. I have my battery mounted behind the passenger seat and have a #2 wire from the negative terminal routed to a brass bolt that passes through the firewall. The common grounding point for all of the gadgets in my panel is attached to the firewall by this brass bolt. Forward of the firewall, another #2 wire connects from the brass bolt to the engine block. The only circuits using the airframe as the return path are the lights in the wings and tail. One thing to keep in mind: Electrical supply wires are made of pure copper or pure aluminum, the structure of an airplane is made of aluminum or iron alloys. Alloys are not nearly as good at conducting electricity as pure metals. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > Hi Craig, > > I read the first article from your link. Alas, the second link > didn't work for me. > > I guess the issue you bring up is a valid one, but I don't know what > conditions in an airplane would amount to "High Current" as mentioned > in the article. I agree that the starter is a big issue. On the > other hand, the starter is not used for long periods of time or when > it is important for instruments and electronic stuff to work well. > > With an all aluminum plane, I would think the aluminum would be fine > for a current return path for most applications. Perhaps the starter > is a good exception to this rule. If you want to run matching sized > copper (or heaven-forbid silver) cables from the battery compartment > to the starter that would be reasonable. Of course there is a weight > penalty so if you get carried away with this approach your plane may > gain weight quickly. > > > Good luck, > > Paul > XL wings > > > At 04:05 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" >> >> Some what off topic and others can correct me if I am wrong but I believe >> for long high-current runs it is recommended that you run a positive and >> negative (ground) lead in the same bundle so the magnetic fields cancel out. >> Here are a few sources I found by searching Google with "battery cable >> magnetic cancel": >> ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring Question 601XL 0235 LYC From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 12/3/05 11:24 PM, Paul Mulwitz at p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net wrote: Most GPS units I've seen can be set up to use true headings or magnetic headings. Even my old hand held Garmin GPS III. I bet if you look through the setup menu of your 296, you'll find the control that switches between the two. Any unit designed for air navigation will have the ability to use magnetic headings because any vector given to you by ATC will be a magnetic heading. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > Hi Craig, > > I have been away from flying for a decade or two, but it seems to me > that the whiskey compass is all but obsolete these days. With the > popularity of GPS, it seems to me the only remaining use for magnetic > bearings is to find the proper runway number and to adjust for the > offset in VOR radials. > > Of course that assumes the GPS in question is operating on true > bearings rather than magnetic ones. I don't really know if this is > normal or even possible. > > Best regards, > > Paul > > At 07:19 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: