Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:47 AM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity (Bryan Martin)
2. 02:50 AM - Re: Wheel Kits (Bryan Martin)
3. 03:53 AM - Re: Wheel Kits (Robin Bellach)
4. 05:42 AM - Re: Wheel Kits (Jean-Paul Roy)
5. 06:02 AM - Re: Wheel Kits (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
6. 06:19 AM - Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Jim Pensinger)
7. 06:48 AM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity (Paul Moore)
8. 06:49 AM - Rivet countersink (Don Mountain)
9. 07:58 AM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity (Paul Tipton)
10. 08:01 AM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.601XL Fuel Tank (Paul Tipton)
11. 08:15 AM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity (japhillipsga@aol.com)
12. 08:23 AM - Re: Wheel Kits (Brandon Tucker)
13. 08:24 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (japhillipsga@aol.com)
14. 08:24 AM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
15. 08:31 AM - Re: Rivet countersink (japhillipsga@aol.com)
16. 08:33 AM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.601XL Fuel Tank Capacity 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
17. 08:33 AM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity. (Jon Croke)
18. 08:34 AM - Re: Rivet countersink (cgalley)
19. 08:35 AM - Re: Rivet countersink (cgalley)
20. 08:54 AM - Re: Rivet countersink ()
21. 09:00 AM - Re: Rivet countersink ()
22. 09:01 AM - Re: -(Universal Model Ruined by Auto Gas) was 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity (N5SL)
23. 09:09 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (brucelee@mn.rr.com)
24. 09:14 AM - Re: Rivet countersink (Paul Mulwitz)
25. 09:22 AM - Re: Rivet countersink (BrownTool@AOL.COM)
26. 09:28 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Bill Denton)
27. 09:50 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
28. 09:58 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (jim)
29. 10:00 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (jim)
30. 10:01 AM - Re: Rivet countersink ()
31. 10:05 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Randy Stout)
32. 10:38 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Robin Bellach)
33. 10:45 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (brucelee@mn.rr.com)
34. 10:57 AM - Re: Wheel Kits (kevinbonds)
35. 11:32 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (jim)
36. 11:34 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (jim)
37. 11:49 AM - Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA rules (JAPhillipsGA@AOL.COM)
38. 12:14 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (B Johnson)
39. 01:03 PM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity. (Craig Payne)
40. 01:09 PM - Wheel Kits (P.H. Raker)
41. 01:42 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Larry McFarland)
42. 01:49 PM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity. (Craig Payne)
43. 01:53 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Craig Payne)
44. 01:54 PM - Re: Rivet countersink (lynn dingfelder)
45. 01:59 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Phil Maxson)
46. 02:19 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
47. 02:36 PM - When can I Rivet (Gig Giacona)
48. 02:41 PM - Re: Rivet countersink (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
49. 03:37 PM - Scary (bill naumuk)
50. 03:50 PM - Re: Wheel Kits (Bryan Martin)
51. 04:06 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Bryan Martin)
52. 04:17 PM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.601XL Fuel Tank Capacity 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity (Gary Gower)
53. 04:22 PM - Re: Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA (Paul Mulwitz)
54. 04:41 PM - Re: Scary (Craig Payne)
55. 04:52 PM - Re: Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA rules (Bill Denton)
56. 04:54 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Bruce Lee)
57. 05:04 PM - Re: Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA rules (Craig Payne)
58. 05:25 PM - Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity. Universal tube marks. (Gary Gower)
59. 05:29 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
60. 05:54 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance. (Gary Gower)
61. 06:03 PM - Drawing updates? (rlendon@comcast.net)
62. 06:03 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Jim Pellien)
63. 06:23 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Robin Bellach)
64. 06:26 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Bruce Lee)
65. 06:37 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (cgalley)
66. 06:50 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance. (Gary Gower)
67. 06:52 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Craig Payne)
68. 07:13 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance. (Mike Fortunato)
69. 07:27 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance (Paul Mulwitz)
70. 08:54 PM - Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance. (Brandon Tucker)
71. 11:28 PM - Hello from new CH-701 builder with questions (Rory Davis)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
The 12 gallon tanks on my plane hold just short of 12 gallons with only
about a quart unusable per side. I generally figure on 23 gallons of usable
fuel with full tanks.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
on 12/7/05 8:23 PM, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com at JAPhillipsGA@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
> Robin, when you compute weight and balance with full loads you multiply the
> ...
> knowing by design that the elevator can pitch the plane sufficiently on take
> off
> and landing if the weighs are within computed limitations. That is why 12
> pounds forward of CG is important. Best regards, Bill
>
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Grove wheels are an alternative to Matco but they are a bit more money.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
on 12/8/05 1:31 AM, kevinbonds at kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
>
> wondering about the AZUSALITE wheels that are made of Zytel Nylon material.
> They are very light weight. Anyone using them? The kits all seem to come
> with drum brakes. Is there a disc brake system for these wheels? I checked
> the archives already and found nothing on alternatives to Matco.
>
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
> Nashville TN
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
Do you know how they compare in weight?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
To: "Zenith List" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:50 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Kits
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> Grove wheels are an alternative to Matco but they are a bit more money.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> do not archive.
>
>
> on 12/8/05 1:31 AM, kevinbonds at kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds"
<kevinbonds@comcast.net>
>>
>> wondering about the AZUSALITE wheels that are made of Zytel Nylon
material.
>> They are very light weight. Anyone using them? The kits all seem to
come
>> with drum brakes. Is there a disc brake system for these wheels? I
checked
>> the archives already and found nothing on alternatives to Matco.
>>
>>
>> Kevin Bonds
>>
>> Nashville TN
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" <jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca>
For those interested in wheel kits and brake system, here is a link I just
found.
http://www.flyfbi.com/html/hydraulic_brakes.html
Have a good day
Jean-Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Kits
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
>
> Do you know how they compare in weight?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> To: "Zenith List" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Kits
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> >
> > Grove wheels are an alternative to Matco but they are a bit more
money.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bryan Martin
> > N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> > do not archive.
> >
> >
> > on 12/8/05 1:31 AM, kevinbonds at kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds"
> <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
> >>
> >> wondering about the AZUSALITE wheels that are made of Zytel Nylon
> material.
> >> They are very light weight. Anyone using them? The kits all seem to
> come
> >> with drum brakes. Is there a disc brake system for these wheels? I
> checked
> >> the archives already and found nothing on alternatives to Matco.
> >>
> >>
> >> Kevin Bonds
> >>
> >> Nashville TN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
I think I'd stay away from the Azuzalight wheels. I had some of those on an
ultralight once...and they were marginal, at best. I seem to remember that
they "warped"....wouldn't run true....couldn't be balanced properly....just a
general headache.
The Grove wheels, on the other hand, are excellent....very well made. I
recommend them. I know, they're pricey. But like most things, you get what you
pay for.
Dave
601XL/Corvair
Message 6
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| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger" <jim@pensinger.net>
For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with different
loading parameters and found that I have a much bigger problem with aft CG
than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945 battery and 4
fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot to weigh at
least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
Jim Pensinger
www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
Message 7
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| Subject: | 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
Enough for me and some luggage. It will come in real handy
someday.....guaranteed.
Paul
XL - O200
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne
What payload will you have left if you carry 42 gallons of fuel?
Do Not Archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
I am installing the nut plates that came with the ZAC kit for inspection hole
covers and such, and wonder how everybody is countersinking the holes for those
little tiny solid rivets. I have been using a hand crank drill with a twist
drill bit, but the bevel angle is not quite right. What angle are these
rivet heads and is there a cheap tool I can get to countersink them by hand?
When I drive the rivets on a steel backing plate they seem to seat pretty well,
but there has to be an easier tool to countersink them.
Don, 601XL, tail done, working on wings
---------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton" <PTIPTON@swmail.sw.org>
42 gals is way beyond my bladder capacity or bottom comfort level.
Do not archeive.
Message 10
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Capacity 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
| Subject: | Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.601XL Fuel Tank |
Capacity 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton" <PTIPTON@swmail.sw.org>
I used one of the universal models and auto gas ruined it!
Paul Tipton
N321PT
CH701
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
Paul, we completed the w&b back in June and I have 44 hours on her and she flys
great. I also have the battery mounted on the firewall. The reason adding weight
forward is not much of an option is because of gross weight of 1320. What
you add you have to take away. The only option is weight reduction in the rear.
Wonder how she would fly with half an elevator ? Just kidding. best regards,
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the info. I interpret your comment to mean 11 gallons is
the useable fuel in the tank as installed in the plane.
I am not at all surprised the usable fuel is not 12 gallons in a 12
gallon tank. There is always some tank space that doesn't translate
to gas going to the engine in flight.
You may be right about the weight and balance issue introduced by the
fuel "Shortage". On the other hand, the fuel tanks are probably
placed very near the ideal CG. This is done so the removal of fuel
doesn't make a big change in the plane's CG during a long flight. I
wouldn't lose sleep over this being a big design flaw until the
complete picture is clear with the initial weight and balance
calculations on your specific plane. If you need more weight up
front you can always put the battery in the engine compartment like
it is in most cars. I suspect it is more likely that your plane will
need more empty weight in the rear and you will put your battery aft
of the seats - just like most small planes.
I am sure your plane will be OK.
Hang in there.
Paul
XL wings
At 05:29 PM 12/7/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
>Paul, the way XL tanks set tipped forwards and about three inches higher out
>board I suspect the finger filter gets almost all the fuel. But from bone dry
>the tank will hit the overflow at about 11 gallons, maybe a tad more. Best to
>you, Bill
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Kevin,
I am not flying yet, but I did install the Asuza
aluminum wheel kit. GPAC does sell a hydraulic set up
for the wheels:
http://www.greatplainsas.com/schbrakes.html
-For that price, you may as well go with the
Grove or Matco. I kept mine mechanical and custom
built rudder pedals for the brake cables. I agree
that the Asuza parts are a bit cheesey. The brake
drums are quite thin. I don't know how well they will
work, but I will report back when I start taxi tests -
hopefully in the next month or so.
They use the Asuza in the Sonex, so I would like
to think that they should have some working
qualities...
R/
Brandon
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of baggage and 360
pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of fuel in the tanks to land safely
within the W&B. I may have to re compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as
opposed to 24. Best to you all, Bill of Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger" <jim@pensinger.net>
For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with different
loading parameters and found that I have a much bigger problem with aft CG
than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945 battery and 4
fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot to weigh at
least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
Jim Pensinger
www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
Message 14
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| Subject: | 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Which if your cheap like me (and run autofuel) is exactly what you
want...Reason being is that you can get there and get back without
buying any expensive 100LL.
My new RV project has close to 6 hours range...Cool!
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Tipton
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton" <PTIPTON@swmail.sw.org>
42 gals is way beyond my bladder capacity or bottom comfort level.
Do not archeive.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
Don, I used a BIG drill bit to angle the enter edges. You have to be careful when
you touch the little holes with the BIG bit, but a little practice will help.
Use a piece of scrape and make tests to find the correct size so the heads
are flush, but tight.
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet countersink
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
I am installing the nut plates that came with the ZAC kit for inspection hole
covers and such, and wonder how everybody is countersinking the holes for those
little tiny solid rivets. I have been using a hand crank drill with a twist
drill bit, but the bevel angle is not quite right. What angle are these rivet
heads and is there a cheap tool I can get to countersink them by hand? When I
drive the rivets on a steel backing plate they seem to seat pretty well, but
there has to be an easier tool to countersink them.
Don, 601XL, tail done, working on wings
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.601XL Fuel Tank Capacity |
601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I must be missing something...Ruined what exactly?
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Tipton
601XL@ccerelrim02.cce.hp.com; Fuel@ccerelrim02.cce.hp.com;
Tank@ccerelrim02.cce.hp.com; Capacity@ccerelrim02.cce.hp.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.601XL Fuel Tank
Capacity 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton" <PTIPTON@swmail.sw.org>
I used one of the universal models and auto gas ruined it!
Paul Tipton
N321PT
CH701
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Gary,
Did you find that how LEVEL the ground your plane is sitting on would affect
the reading? Either left to right, or front to back? OR did it not make
that much difference?
Jon
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>
> We all know that all electric fuel meters can give wrong readings...
>
> The only one I trust before every flight is this one:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/fuelhawkfuelgauge.php
>
> Got the Universal model ( part No. 13-00439) and I calibrated (in
> liters) ever 10 liters. Never fails. I also marked every estimated
> hour of fuel time.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.
> 701 912S
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
They make a piloted countersink for a micro countersink that you could use
in a home made handle or chucked in your battery drill.
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet countersink
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> I am installing the nut plates that came with the ZAC kit for inspection
> hole covers and such, and wonder how everybody is countersinking the
> holes for those little tiny solid rivets. I have been using a hand crank
> drill with a twist drill bit, but the bevel angle is not quite right.
> What angle are these rivet heads and is there a cheap tool I can get to
> countersink them by hand? When I drive the rivets on a steel backing
> plate they seem to seat pretty well, but there has to be an easier tool
> to countersink them.
>
> Don, 601XL, tail done, working on wings
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
You could also re-sharpen the drill bit to the proper angle.
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet countersink
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> I am installing the nut plates that came with the ZAC kit for inspection
> hole covers and such, and wonder how everybody is countersinking the
> holes for those little tiny solid rivets. I have been using a hand crank
> drill with a twist drill bit, but the bevel angle is not quite right.
> What angle are these rivet heads and is there a cheap tool I can get to
> countersink them by hand? When I drive the rivets on a steel backing
> plate they seem to seat pretty well, but there has to be an easier tool
> to countersink them.
>
> Don, 601XL, tail done, working on wings
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <planejim@bellsouth.net>
Don,
Regular solid rivets are 100 degrees included angle and the Avex rivets
(countersunk type) are 120 degrees. For the very limeted number of counter
sunk holes you have to do you can buy a countersink bit (threaded ou un
threaded) from one of the tool companies. Or if you have a good eye, a fine
wheel on your bench grinder you can grind a drill bit to the correct angle.
Since these are just for holding nutplates, these are not that critical. I
wouldn't advise this for structure rivets. The AD rivets you are using are
soft enough that they will fill the hole fine for just holding nutplates.
Jim Hoak - 601HD 500 hrs 912UL
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet countersink
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> I am installing the nut plates that came with the ZAC kit for inspection
> hole covers and such, and wonder how everybody is countersinking the
> holes for those little tiny solid rivets. I have been using a hand crank
> drill with a twist drill bit, but the bevel angle is not quite right.
> What angle are these rivet heads and is there a cheap tool I can get to
> countersink them by hand? When I drive the rivets on a steel backing
> plate they seem to seat pretty well, but there has to be an easier tool
> to countersink them.
>
> Don, 601XL, tail done, working on wings
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <planejim@bellsouth.net>
Don,
Regular solid rivets are 100 degrees included angle and the Avex rivets
(countersunk type) are 120 degrees. For the very limeted number of counter
sunk holes you have to do you can buy a countersink bit (threaded ou un
threaded) from one of the tool companies. Or if you have a good eye, a fine
wheel on your bench grinder you can grind a drill bit to the correct angle.
Since these are just for holding nutplates, these are not that critical. I
wouldn't advise this for structure rivets. The AD rivets you are using are
soft enough that they will fill the hole fine for just holding nutplates.
Jim Hoak - 601HD 500 hrs 912UL
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet countersink
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> I am installing the nut plates that came with the ZAC kit for inspection
> hole covers and such, and wonder how everybody is countersinking the
> holes for those little tiny solid rivets. I have been using a hand crank
> drill with a twist drill bit, but the bevel angle is not quite right.
> What angle are these rivet heads and is there a cheap tool I can get to
> countersink them by hand? When I drive the rivets on a steel backing
> plate they seem to seat pretty well, but there has to be an easier tool
> to countersink them.
>
> Don, 601XL, tail done, working on wings
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: -(Universal Model Ruined by Auto Gas) was 601XL Fuel |
Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Hi Paul:
I'm having trouble following this thread - If you
don't mind, could you explain what you are referring
to "universal model" that was ruined by auto gas?
Also, to what extent was it ruined?
Thank you,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
Wiring & Stuff.
--- Paul Tipton <PTIPTON@swmail.sw.org> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton"
> <PTIPTON@swmail.sw.org>
>
> I used one of the universal models and auto gas
> ruined it!
> Paul Tipton
> N321PT
> CH701
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess
I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>
> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of
> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re
> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you
> all, Bill of Georgia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
<jim@pensinger.net>
>
> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
> problem with aft CG
> than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
> battery and 4
> fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot to
> weigh at
> least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
>
> Jim Pensinger
> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Don,
I just finished doing two inspection plates for my first wing. I
used a standard countersink mounted in my 14 volt drill to cut the
countersinks. I set my calipers (Mitutoyo, but anything will work)
to the width of the rivet and kept taking a little metal off at a
time until I had reached at least the diameter of the rivet. If the
countersink bevel is too narrow you will have to file down some of
the rivet after setting to get it flush with the skin. If it is too
wide/deep the rivet will spin a little after setting. Either one is
OK since there are two rivets per nut plate.
For setting I used a one ton arbor press I already had in my shop
with a flat plate on the bottom and round bar mounted in the
quill. This works incredibly well.
My total procedure:
1. Drill pilot holes in the inspection plate.
2. Match drill the holes in the skin using clecos.
3. Enlarge the holes in both inspection plate and skin until big
enough for the screws.
4. Remove the inspection plate.
5. Cut the inspection hole in the skin - keep 10 mm distance from
center of screw holes.
6. Make a mark parallel to the edge of the inspection plate, thru
the screw hole, with at least 1/4 inch on each side of the screw hole.
7. Mark one rivet location on each hole.
8. Drill first rivet hole for each nut plate on drill press.
9. Countersink first rivet location for each nut plate.
10. Set first rivet in each nut plate. Position the nut plate over
the screw hole in the inspection plate.
11. Back drill second rivet hole, on the drill press, for each nut
plate. The pre-marked line should show through the rivet hole in the
nut plate.
12. Countersink second rivet hole for each plate.
13. Set second rivet for each nut plate.
It sounds complicated, but it is faster to do than type about.
Good Luck,
Paul
XL wings
> I am installing the nut plates that came with the ZAC kit for
> inspection hole covers and such, and wonder how everybody is
> countersinking the holes for those little tiny solid rivets. I
> have been using a hand crank drill with a twist drill bit, but the
> bevel angle is not quite right. What angle are these rivet heads
> and is there a cheap tool I can get to countersink them
> by hand? When I drive the rivets on a steel backing plate they
> seem to seat pretty well, but there has to be an easier tool to
> countersink them.
>
> Don, 601XL, tail done, working on wings
>
>
-
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: BrownTool@aol.com
In a message dated 12/8/2005 11:02:01 AM Central Standard Time,
planejim@bellsouth.net writes:
Regular solid rivets are 100 degrees included angle and the Avex rivets
(countersunk type) are 120 degrees. For the very limeted number of counter
sunk holes you have to do you can buy a countersink bit (threaded ou un
threaded) from one of the tool companies.
For anyone who needs a 120 Degree Countersink, we keep them in stock with
pilot sizes #40(3/32), #30(1/8"), #21(5/32"), #10(3/16"), and 1/4". We also
of course stock the Countersink "Cages" or Microstops which enable you to
achive the perfect countersink cut every time.
If you only have a few holes to countersink, and they are not critical, you
can also use one of our "chucking spuds" which has a 1/4" chucking shank and
1/4-28 female threads. Simply screw the countersink cutter into the female
threads and chuck the 1/4" shank in your regular drill motor and start
countersinking.
You can find the 120 Degree Cutters and Countersink Cages on our website at
www.browntool.com - click on "products" on the opening page and then click
on the "countersink cutters & countersink cages" button. The Chucking Spud
can be found under the "Misc Tools #2" button.
Any questions, need help? Feel free to call us at 1-800-587-3883, we are
more than glad to help.
Thanks!
Michael Brown
Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co.
2536 S.E. 15th Street
Oklahoma City, OK 73129
USA
405-688-6888
Fax 405-688-6555
browntool@aol.com
www.browntool.com
do not archive
Message 26
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| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
Here's some insight: Pick another hobby.
First, you are advocating violating the FAA rules governing the Sport Pilot
certificate and Light Sport Aircraft. This is a recently "given" privilege,
and I have no use for anyone who would abuse that privilege, and possibly
cause the rest of us to lose it.
Second, the weight and speed limitations are based both on regulations and
established engineering principles. Violate them, and you'll either be in
deep legal trouble, or dead.
I suggest you forget about airplanes for the time being, and spend the next
few years trying to grow up...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
brucelee@mn.rr.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess
I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>
> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of
> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re
> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you
> all, Bill of Georgia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
<jim@pensinger.net>
>
> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
> problem with aft CG
> than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
> battery and 4
> fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot to
> weigh at
> least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
>
> Jim Pensinger
> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>
>
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I guess my first question is...Why do you think you want a VNE of
200?...I have only ever seen 150mph once in 400 hours in the HDS and
that was a full power dive at the runway. The RV 7 will cruise around
200 with a top speed of 210, yet only has a VNE of 230...Never had it
reported that it is a problem.
I don't think you will get anywhere near 200mph in an Xl.
As to max weight the HDS can be flown over gross quite happily, normally
it is plated for 1200 but I have flown it at 1300 many times. The
airframe is rated to +/-6g ultimate (or 4.5 G with a 1.5 safety factor).
Going a little over gross simply means you have less margin.
For examply 1200*4.5= 5400lbs....5400/ 1300 (say) = 4.15Gs
Your stall speed will go up too.
Now how will flying above gross affect the legal situation?...I don't
know....But it's a bit like Martha Stewart...Try not to get caught, but
if you do you can still be a TV star...No problem!
Frank
HDS...For sale very soon!
RV7a under construction
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
brucelee@mn.rr.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying to
decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions if
you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the max
weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it to
1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what would
you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm getting
at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far exceed the
limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess I want it to
preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by someone with
only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>
> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of fuel
> in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re compute
> my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you all, Bill
> of Georgia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
<jim@pensinger.net>
>
> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
> problem with aft CG than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300,
> Odyssey 945 battery and 4 fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage,
> I require the pilot to weigh at least 55 lbs to stay within the
> forward CG limit.
>
> Jim Pensinger
> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
Bruce,
Short answer: You cannot do this.
You need to read up on the regulations for LSA aircraft at the EAA.org website
and the FAA regulations themselves. Also I'd recommend that you look through
the archives for the Sport Aircraft Forum to learn more about the new rules.
When you buy one of the Zenith kits and build the aircraft, you will certify it
in the 51% built category, not as an ELSA.
For an aircraft to be flown by a Sport Pilot it must conform to many performance
limitations. One of them is that the maximum continuous cruise speed must not
exceed 138 mph. If the maximum continuous cruise speed is above 138 mph it
is not a LSA and cannot be flown by a sport pilot.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
jim@sportsplanes.com
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>
>Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
>to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
>if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
>max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
>to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
>would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
>getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
>exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess
>I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
>someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
>Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>Bruce
>----- Original Message -----
>From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>>
>> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
>> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of
>> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re
>> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you
>> all, Bill of Georgia
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>>
>>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
><jim@pensinger.net>
>>
>> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
>> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
>> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
>> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
>> problem with aft CG
>> than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
>> battery and 4
>> fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot to
>> weigh at
>> least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
>>
>> Jim Pensinger
>> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Sent via the WebMail system at mail.pellien.com
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
Bruce,
Also the max weight for an aircraft to be flown by a sport pilot is: 1320 lbs.
Anything over is not a LSA, period, unless it is an amphibious aircraft in which
case the limitation is 1430 lbs.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
jim@sportsplanes.com
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>
>Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
>to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
>if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
>max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
>to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
>would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
>getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
>exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess
>I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
>someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
>Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>Bruce
>----- Original Message -----
>From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>>
>> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
>> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of
>> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re
>> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you
>> all, Bill of Georgia
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>>
>>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
><jim@pensinger.net>
>>
>> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
>> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
>> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
>> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
>> problem with aft CG
>> than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
>> battery and 4
>> fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot to
>> weigh at
>> least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
>>
>> Jim Pensinger
>> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Sent via the WebMail system at mail.pellien.com
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <davgray@sbcglobal.net>
On my 601XL I used the rivet squeezer from Wicks
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=1582~subid=6074/index.html
and I bought the approiate spring back dimple dies. (#6 & #8 screw
and 3/32 rivet) I am glad I did.
I have used it on access panels but also on the bottom fuselage access door
modification and I also attached my top forward fuselage skin forward of the
instrument panel with floating nut plates and #8 machine screws.
I attached nutplates to the fiberglass saddle to the rudder and I used it to
dimple the metal surround of the canopy. A very useful tool.
Gary Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet countersink
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> I am installing the nut plates that came with the ZAC kit for inspection
hole covers and such, and wonder how everybody is countersinking the holes
for those little tiny solid rivets. I have been using a hand crank drill
with a twist drill bit, but the bevel angle is not quite right. What angle
are these rivet heads and is there a cheap tool I can get to countersink
them by hand? When I drive the rivets on a steel backing plate they seem
to seat pretty well, but there has to be an easier tool to countersink
them.
>
> Don, 601XL, tail done, working on wings
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <n282rs@earthlink.net>
Put an O-360 on it, but then you'll have to worry about it ripping itself
off the firewall. In a nutshell, you are looking at the wrong plane!
Randy Stout
n282rs"at"earthlink.net
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
> [Original Message]
> From: <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 12/8/2005 11:08:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>
> Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
> to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
> if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
> max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
> to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
> would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
> getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
> exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess
> I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
> someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
> Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
> Bruce
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
AMEN!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
>
> Here's some insight: Pick another hobby.
>
> First, you are advocating violating the FAA rules governing the Sport
Pilot
> certificate and Light Sport Aircraft. This is a recently "given"
privilege,
> and I have no use for anyone who would abuse that privilege, and
possibly
> cause the rest of us to lose it.
>
> Second, the weight and speed limitations are based both on regulations
and
> established engineering principles. Violate them, and you'll either be
in
> deep legal trouble, or dead.
>
> I suggest you forget about airplanes for the time being, and spend the
next
> few years trying to grow up...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> brucelee@mn.rr.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>
> Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
> to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
> if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
> max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
> to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
> would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
> getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
> exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess
> I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
> someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
> Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
> Bruce
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: japhillipsga@aol.com
> Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>>
>> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
>> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of
>> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re
>> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you
>> all, Bill of Georgia
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>>
>>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
> <jim@pensinger.net>
>>
>> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
>> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
>> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
>> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
>> problem with aft CG
>> than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
>> battery and 4
>> fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot to
>> weigh at
>> least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
>>
>> Jim Pensinger
>> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
Bruce
P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
----- Original Message -----
From: jim <jim@pellien.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
>
> Bruce,
>
> Short answer: You cannot do this.
>
> You need to read up on the regulations for LSA aircraft at the
> EAA.org website and the FAA regulations themselves. Also I'd
> recommend that you look through the archives for the Sport
> Aircraft Forum to learn more about the new rules.
>
> When you buy one of the Zenith kits and build the aircraft, you
> will certify it in the 51% built category, not as an ELSA.
>
> For an aircraft to be flown by a Sport Pilot it must conform to
> many performance limitations. One of them is that the maximum
> continuous cruise speed must not exceed 138 mph. If the maximum
> continuous cruise speed is above 138 mph it is not a LSA and
> cannot be flown by a sport pilot.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Pellien
> Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
> www.MASPL.com
> 703-313-4818
> jim@sportsplanes.com
>
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:08:16 -0600
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
> >
> >
> >Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm
> trying
> >to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple
> questions
> >if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know
> the
> >max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could
> push it
> >to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question-
> what
> >would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What
> I'm
> >getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will
> far
> >exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I
> guess
> >I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown
> by
> >someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of
> 2000).
> >Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
> >Bruce
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: japhillipsga@aol.com
> >Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> >
> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
> >>
> >> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds
> of
> >> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons
> of
> >> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to
> re
> >> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to
> you
> >> all, Bill of Georgia
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> >>
> >>
> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
> ><jim@pensinger.net>
> >>
> >> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B
> of the
> >> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft
> of the
> >> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
> >> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
> >> problem with aft CG
> >> than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
> >> battery and 4
> >> fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot
> to
> >> weigh at
> >> least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
> >>
> >> Jim Pensinger
> >> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> Sent via the WebMail system at mail.pellien.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Thanks Dave
I was afraid of that. I was hoping to save weight, but makes sense.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
I think I'd stay away from the Azuzalight wheels. I had some of those on an
ultralight once...and they were marginal, at best. I seem to remember that
they "warped"....wouldn't run true....couldn't be balanced properly....just
a
general headache.
Dave
601XL/Corvair
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
Bruce,
Nope.....not possible. Better read a little more. You are not bending the new
rules....you are about to break the new rules.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
jim@sportsplanes.com
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
>was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
>materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
>going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
>320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
>should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
>180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
>to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
>Bruce
>P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
>trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
>pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
>engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
>pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
>in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
>cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: jim <jim@pellien.com>
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 11:55 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
>>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Short answer: You cannot do this.
>>
>> You need to read up on the regulations for LSA aircraft at the
>> EAA.org website and the FAA regulations themselves. Also I'd
>> recommend that you look through the archives for the Sport
>> Aircraft Forum to learn more about the new rules.
>>
>> When you buy one of the Zenith kits and build the aircraft, you
>> will certify it in the 51% built category, not as an ELSA.
>>
>> For an aircraft to be flown by a Sport Pilot it must conform to
>> many performance limitations. One of them is that the maximum
>> continuous cruise speed must not exceed 138 mph. If the maximum
>> continuous cruise speed is above 138 mph it is not a LSA and
>> cannot be flown by a sport pilot.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Jim Pellien
>> Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
>> www.MASPL.com
>> 703-313-4818
>> jim@sportsplanes.com
>>
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>> From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:08:16 -0600
>>
>> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm
>> trying
>> >to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple
>> questions
>> >if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know
>> the
>> >max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could
>> push it
>> >to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question-
>> what
>> >would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What
>> I'm
>> >getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will
>> far
>> >exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I
>> guess
>> >I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown
>> by
>> >someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of
>> 2000).
>> >Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>> >Bruce
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>> >Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>> >
>> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>> >>
>> >> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds
>> of
>> >> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons
>> of
>> >> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to
>> re
>> >> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to
>> you
>> >> all, Bill of Georgia
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
>> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> >> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
>> ><jim@pensinger.net>
>> >>
>> >> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B
>> of the
>> >> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft
>> of the
>> >> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
>> >> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
>> >> problem with aft CG
>> >> than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
>> >> battery and 4
>> >> fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot
>> to
>> >> weigh at
>> >> least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
>> >>
>> >> Jim Pensinger
>> >> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Sent via the WebMail system at mail.pellien.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Sent via the WebMail system at mail.pellien.com
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
Bruce,
It is people like yourself who could cause these great new SP and LSA rules to
be rescinded some day because of violations like what you are proposing. My recommendation:
Stay in the 51% world and be legal.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
jim@sportsplanes.com
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
>was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
>materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
>going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
>320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
>should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
>180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
>to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
>Bruce
>P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
>trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
>pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
>engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
>pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
>in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
>cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: jim <jim@pellien.com>
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 11:55 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
>>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Short answer: You cannot do this.
>>
>> You need to read up on the regulations for LSA aircraft at the
>> EAA.org website and the FAA regulations themselves. Also I'd
>> recommend that you look through the archives for the Sport
>> Aircraft Forum to learn more about the new rules.
>>
>> When you buy one of the Zenith kits and build the aircraft, you
>> will certify it in the 51% built category, not as an ELSA.
>>
>> For an aircraft to be flown by a Sport Pilot it must conform to
>> many performance limitations. One of them is that the maximum
>> continuous cruise speed must not exceed 138 mph. If the maximum
>> continuous cruise speed is above 138 mph it is not a LSA and
>> cannot be flown by a sport pilot.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Jim Pellien
>> Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
>> www.MASPL.com
>> 703-313-4818
>> jim@sportsplanes.com
>>
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>> From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:08:16 -0600
>>
>> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm
>> trying
>> >to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple
>> questions
>> >if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know
>> the
>> >max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could
>> push it
>> >to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question-
>> what
>> >would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What
>> I'm
>> >getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will
>> far
>> >exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I
>> guess
>> >I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown
>> by
>> >someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of
>> 2000).
>> >Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>> >Bruce
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>> >Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>> >
>> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>> >>
>> >> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds
>> of
>> >> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons
>> of
>> >> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to
>> re
>> >> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to
>> you
>> >> all, Bill of Georgia
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
>> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> >> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
>> ><jim@pensinger.net>
>> >>
>> >> For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B
>> of the
>> >> factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft
>> of the
>> >> firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
>> >> differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
>> >> problem with aft CG
>> >> than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
>> >> battery and 4
>> >> fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot
>> to
>> >> weigh at
>> >> least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
>> >>
>> >> Jim Pensinger
>> >> www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Sent via the WebMail system at mail.pellien.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Sent via the WebMail system at mail.pellien.com
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA rules |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Dear Thread Friends, after reading Bruce's message it raised a question about
who might be monitoring this and other threads. Maybe my normal paranoia is
showing, but could Bruce be an investigator trying to interject himself to
learn about violations and such? I echo Jim's sentiment and what he said. Further,
you have to know that there are a bunch of powerful folks with interests
counter to the Light Sport Aircraft rules and experimental aviation in general.
All you have to do is think of all the experimental homebuilt aircraft you see
at Fun in Sun, ask yourself what if the were Certified Factory aircraft and
consider that value to certified GA manufactures and then you see who might not
wish us well. What we experimenter do is so special and I am so proud to be
associated with such fine fellows as you all that I would never consider risking
losing the privileges I have earned. And I will not associate with anyone who
will risk it. Bruce, if that is who you really are, take a hike.
Bill of Georgia N505WP, 601XL
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
Bruce,
A plane that qualifies for a Sport Pilot to fly can NEVER have had it's
specs over the sport pilot limits, much less go back and forth for each
flight.
The 601XL is a great Sport Pilot qualified plane, purely from posts here,
you will never get it to exceed the limits of Sport Pilot without creating
something else entirely. You would basically have to redesign from the
ground up to get a big enough motor on the front....
So, if flying 200 mph is what you want to do, go with the RV; if flying as a
Sport Pilot is what you want to do, go with the XL, or a Sonex, or one of
the many other Sport Qualified kits out there.
I think maybe a KR might be a fast enough project for you... Living in
South Texas, I;m not a big fan of wood projects personally though.
- Bruce J.
Scratch Building Sonex #593 near San Antonio, TX
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
brucelee@mn.rr.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
Bruce
P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
----- Original Message -----
From: jim <jim@pellien.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@pellien.com>
>
> Bruce,
>
> Short answer: You cannot do this.
>
> You need to read up on the regulations for LSA aircraft at the
> EAA.org website and the FAA regulations themselves. Also I'd
> recommend that you look through the archives for the Sport
> Aircraft Forum to learn more about the new rules.
>
> When you buy one of the Zenith kits and build the aircraft, you
> will certify it in the 51% built category, not as an ELSA.
>
> For an aircraft to be flown by a Sport Pilot it must conform to
> many performance limitations. One of them is that the maximum
> continuous cruise speed must not exceed 138 mph. If the maximum
> continuous cruise speed is above 138 mph it is not a LSA and
> cannot be flown by a sport pilot.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Pellien
> Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
> www.MASPL.com
> 703-313-4818
> jim@sportsplanes.com
>
--
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| Subject: | 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
There is also this one fro MGL. Dual tanks, optional flow meter, can be
calibrated for odd-sized tanks:
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/maxi.html#FF-3
These are its 2.25 inch siblings:
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/singles.html#FF-1
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/singles.html#FF-2
You can buy them in the US from www.sportflyingshop.com/
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
We all know that all electric fuel meters can give wrong readings...
The only one I trust before every flight is this one:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/fuelhawkfuelgauge.php
Got the Universal model ( part No. 13-00439) and I calibrated (in liters)
ever 10 liters. Never fails. I also marked every estimated hour of fuel
time.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
701 912S
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
I'll be measuring the capacity of my 601XL tanks very carefully when I
calibrate my fuel gauges. I've got a three liter calibrated cylinder that
stands about 3 feet high. So I'll be pouring gas into my (dry) tanks three
liters at a time and entering the amount of fuel into my "poor man's" glass
panel.
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/ultraHXL.html
Presumably at the end of filling the tanks I will know their true capacity.
Then I will drain all the fuel out through the fuel lines, measure that and
know the usable capacity.
Good thing I don't smoke.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Bellach
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
Seems to me for CG purposes you only need be concerned with the actual
amount of fuel in the tank, and if you are the aircraft builder you are
responsible for knowing the actual capacity and usable capacity and ZAC's
estimates are moot. And speaking of capacity, I have four of the older ZAC
tanks, for which they claim 10 gal. each - what have you guys who are
farther along found to be the actual and usable capacities of those to be?
----- Original Message -----
From:
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
> Dear Thread friends, anybody notice that the twelve gallon ZAC tanks
> for
the
> XL actually have a capacity of about eleven gallons ? Seems like 12
pounds or
> so forward of the CG missing might be something to be concerned about.
Best to
> you all, Bill
>
>
---------------------------------
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "P.H. Raker" <n556p@yahoo.com>
Hi, Kevin,
I believe ZAC tried them on one of their early prototypes and
found dismal durability. There is a photo of a wheel with the drum
brake in my builder's photo guide, with the note that it's the wrone
wheel & brake. I seem to recall Nick (or was it Sebastien?) saying
that under heavy braking they found that the plastic in the wheels
would soften (almost melt). That is definitely not something I want to
happen on my plane. I hope you and others don't either. On another
note, I believe the Asuza wheels were designed for Part 103
ultralights. It doesn't take much of a wheel/brake combination to stop
such a lightweight.
Phil Raker N556P HDS/Stratus ~85% completed
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds"
<kevinbonds@comcast.net>
It will be a while before I'm ready for them but, I started looking at
wheel
kits tonight. Anyone have any wisdom to share about what to look for.
I'm wondering about the AZUSALITE wheels that are made of Zytel Nylon
material.
They are very light weight. Anyone using them? The kits all seem to
come with drum brakes. Is there a disc brake system for these wheels? I
checked the archives already and found nothing on alternatives to
Matco.
Kevin Bonds
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Bruce,
Exceeding the design limitations as you suggest violate basic rules we've
been lobbying for years to get. One of the things that serious Pilots and
builders agree on is a sense of self-regulated honesty. If you don't
have the integrity
or the intellect to adhere to these rules, you shouldn't build or buy.
You'll kill
yourself not knowing fundamentally that an aircraft is a balance of
weight and performance
to strength. Our insurance rates would go up only because you got the
Darwin
award.
Your comments have been forwarded to manufacturers e-list and the regional
FAA safety office so they can evaluate these comments before you
submit a request for Airworthiness, write a check to buy or build an
aircraft.
Have a nice day.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS
brucelee@mn.rr.com wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>
>Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
>to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
>if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
>max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
>to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
>would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
>getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
>exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess
>I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
>someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
>Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>Bruce
>----- Original Message -----
>From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>>
>>Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
>>baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of
>>fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re
>>compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you
>>all, Bill of Georgia
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>>
>>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
>>
>>
><jim@pensinger.net>
>
>
>>For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
>>factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
>>firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
>>differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
>>problem with aft CG
>>than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300, Odyssey 945
>>battery and 4
>>fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage, I require the pilot to
>>weigh at
>>least 55 lbs to stay within the forward CG limit.
>>
>>Jim Pensinger
>>www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
P.S. I don't work for either of these two companies. In fact I'm lucky to be
working at all. On the other hand I do have an extra FF-3 and flow meter in
hand. If interested let me know.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
There is also this one fro MGL. Dual tanks, optional flow meter, can be
calibrated for odd-sized tanks:
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/maxi.html#FF-3
These are its 2.25 inch siblings:
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/singles.html#FF-1
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/singles.html#FF-2
You can buy them in the US from www.sportflyingshop.com/
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
We all know that all electric fuel meters can give wrong readings...
The only one I trust before every flight is this one:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/fuelhawkfuelgauge.php
Got the Universal model ( part No. 13-00439) and I calibrated (in liters)
ever 10 liters. Never fails. I also marked every estimated hour of fuel
time.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
701 912S
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
I'll be measuring the capacity of my 601XL tanks very carefully when I
calibrate my fuel gauges. I've got a three liter calibrated cylinder that
stands about 3 feet high. So I'll be pouring gas into my (dry) tanks three
liters at a time and entering the amount of fuel into my "poor man's" glass
panel.
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/ultraHXL.html
Presumably at the end of filling the tanks I will know their true capacity.
Then I will drain all the fuel out through the fuel lines, measure that and
know the usable capacity.
Good thing I don't smoke.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Bellach
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
Seems to me for CG purposes you only need be concerned with the actual
amount of fuel in the tank, and if you are the aircraft builder you are
responsible for knowing the actual capacity and usable capacity and ZAC's
estimates are moot. And speaking of capacity, I have four of the older ZAC
tanks, for which they claim 10 gal. each - what have you guys who are
farther along found to be the actual and usable capacities of those to be?
----- Original Message -----
From:
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
> Dear Thread friends, anybody notice that the twelve gallon ZAC tanks
> for
the
> XL actually have a capacity of about eleven gallons ? Seems like 12
pounds or
> so forward of the CG missing might be something to be concerned about.
Best to
> you all, Bill
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Uh, who died and made you Darth Vader?
Wouldn't it have been better to calmly explain the facts first (as others
have). Perhaps if that didn't help you could call in the Thought Police.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Bruce,
Exceeding the design limitations as you suggest violate basic rules we've
been lobbying for years to get. One of the things that serious Pilots and
builders agree on is a sense of self-regulated honesty. If you don't have
the integrity or the intellect to adhere to these rules, you shouldn't build
or buy.
You'll kill
yourself not knowing fundamentally that an aircraft is a balance of weight
and performance to strength. Our insurance rates would go up only because
you got the Darwin award.
Your comments have been forwarded to manufacturers e-list and the regional
FAA safety office so they can evaluate these comments before you submit a
request for Airworthiness, write a check to buy or build an aircraft.
Have a nice day.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS
brucelee@mn.rr.com wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>
>Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
>to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
>if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
>max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
>to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
>would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
>getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
>exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess I
>want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
>someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
>Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>Bruce
>----- Original Message -----
>From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>>
>>Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
>>baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of fuel
>>in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re compute
>>my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you all, Bill
>>of Georgia
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>>
>>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
>>
>>
><jim@pensinger.net>
>
>
>>For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
>>factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
>>firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
>>differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
>>problem with aft CG than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300,
>>Odyssey 945 battery and 4 fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage,
>>I require the pilot to weigh at least 55 lbs to stay within the
>>forward CG limit.
>>
>>Jim Pensinger
>>www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lynn dingfelder" <ding@tbscc.com>
Don,
Another possible countersink solution for minimal usage is
dimple die sets that are pulled with a "pop" riveter. www.aircraft-tool.com
has them for $5.95 each in 3/32 and 1/8, part no. 5102D-3/32 and -1/8. They
are 100 deg. for solid rivets. I bought a set, but haven't yet tried them.
Lynn Dingfelder
601 Corvair (waiting for kit)
Message 45
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| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Those comments are unnecessarily brutal. I agree with your statements of
fact, but not the emphasis.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
>From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
>Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:25:54 -0600
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
>
>Here's some insight: Pick another hobby.
>
<<SNIP>>
>I suggest you forget about airplanes for the time being, and spend the next
>few years trying to grow up...
>
Message 46
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|
| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I think in fairness to Bruce his message looks (to me) like he is not
necessarily trying to break the rules, more about is it possible to
build an airplane with two personalities?
I.e set the ground adjustable prop and plate the gross weight such that
this is a sport pilot legal airplane, but make a few ajustments to make
it fly with the performance of an RV 7.
On the face of it to the uninitiated this is a reasonable question. Of
course it is not realistic propostion leaglly and technically not
feasible with this airplane.
In theory you might be able do it with say an RV 7 with Rv9 wings
attached and a small engine, even though the final empty weight will be
above 1000lbs most likely.
Of course to change it back to the fire breathing beast is a lot more
work than is reasonable and would require the airplane to be
re-registered, if indeed this would even be allowed.
Anyway, I just didn't get the sense this was someone intentionally
trying to break the rules...
For what its worth...:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Bruce,
Exceeding the design limitations as you suggest violate basic rules
we've been lobbying for years to get. One of the things that serious
Pilots and builders agree on is a sense of self-regulated honesty. If
you don't have the integrity or the intellect to adhere to these rules,
you shouldn't build or buy.
You'll kill
yourself not knowing fundamentally that an aircraft is a balance of
weight and performance to strength. Our insurance rates would go up
only because you got the Darwin award.
Your comments have been forwarded to manufacturers e-list and the
regional FAA safety office so they can evaluate these comments before
you submit a request for Airworthiness, write a check to buy or build an
aircraft.
Have a nice day.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS
brucelee@mn.rr.com wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>
>Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm trying
>to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple questions
>if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know the
>max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could push it
>to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question- what
>would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What I'm
>getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will far
>exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I guess I
>want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown by
>someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of 2000).
>Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>Bruce
>----- Original Message -----
>From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>>
>>Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds of
>>baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons of fuel
>>in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to re compute
>>my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to you all, Bill
>>of Georgia
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jim Pensinger <jim@pensinger.net>
>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>>
>>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger"
>>
>>
><jim@pensinger.net>
>
>
>>For all builders, I suggest that you carefully look at the W&B of the
>>factory demonstrator before planning to move your battery aft of the
>>firewall. I made an excel spreadsheet so I could "play" with
>>differentloading parameters and found that I have a much bigger
>>problem with aft CG than with forward CG. For my plane (Jabiru 3300,
>>Odyssey 945 battery and 4 fuel tanks), with full fuel and no baggage,
>>I require the pilot to weigh at least 55 lbs to stay within the
>>forward CG limit.
>>
>>Jim Pensinger
>>www.tn004.com/N250JP.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | When can I Rivet |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
I need a little assitance from those that are further along than I am. I'm
currently building the forward fuselage. Specificly 6B16a of the
construction manual. I haven't pulled a rivet since 6-B-7 and I'm running
low on clecos.
So my question is when can I start riveting the front fuselage?
Gig Giacona
www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Rivet countersink |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
They work OK if you only have a few to do...If you have a lot to do they
are far too fiddley, continually breaking nails etc.
There are about a dozen rivets on the QB Rv's that require the use of
these...Glad when I'd finished them to be honest.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lynn
dingfelder
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet countersink
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lynn dingfelder" <ding@tbscc.com>
Don,
Another possible countersink solution for minimal usage
is dimple die sets that are pulled with a "pop" riveter.
www.aircraft-tool.com has them for $5.95 each in 3/32 and 1/8, part no.
5102D-3/32 and -1/8. They are 100 deg. for solid rivets. I bought a
set, but haven't yet tried them.
Lynn Dingfelder
601 Corvair (waiting for kit)
Message 49
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
All-
I'm not supposed to look at personal e-mail at work, but, well, you know.
We have a series of mega-strength virus firewalls, one of which will set a
message aside and highlight possible virus intrusions in red, along with a description
of the virus. If you don't think there's a problem, you can go ahead
and open a message.
6 of the 27 list messages yesterday were set aside in red. I've never seen
this before, and needless to say, I've broken company policy in the past.
Bill
do not archive
do not rat me out to my employer
Message 50
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
My kit came with Grove main wheels and a Matco nose wheel. I don't know if
the Matco main wheels are built like the nose wheel and I don't know how my
nose wheel compares with the current Matco design. The Grove wheels on my
plane appear to be of significantly better quality than the Matco nose
wheel.
The Grove wheels came with tapered roller bearings wile the Matco nose wheel
had sealed ball bearings. The opening for the valve stem on the Grove wheels
was a half circle cutout on each half of the wheel that allowed the stem to
emerge from the center of the wheel. The Matco wheel had a hole though one
half of the wheel so the valve stem came out off center. On my nose wheel,
the valve stem would not clear the wheel fork as the wheel rotated and the
tube would be twisted to one side and it was very difficult to get the valve
stem through the hole (the valve stems were brass with a 90 degree bend in
them). I ended up putting the two halves of the Matco wheel together and
drilling a new valve stem hole on center and plugging the original hole with
epoxy. I didn't weigh the wheels but I would guess that the Grove wheels
were slightly heavier with the roller bearings and somewhat sturdier
construction.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
>
> Do you know how they compare in weight?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> To: "Zenith List" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Kits
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>>
>> Grove wheels are an alternative to Matco but they are a bit more money.
>>
>>
>> --
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
1. I don't think you understand the LSA rules as well as you think you do.
You can't legally switch an airplane from LSA compliant to non compliant and
back, it must be built to the LSA limitations and remain in compliance for
it's entire history to remain eligible for LSA status. It's not like an
airplane that can be flown in the utility category at one gross weight and
flown in the normal category at a higher gross weight.
2. You can't can't legally change engines in an amateur built airplane after
certification without informing the FAA and putting the airplane back into
phase I testing. I believe you have to test for an additional 5 hours in the
new configuration before you can return the plane to normal flight status.
Failing to follow this rule will at the very least give your insurance
company a valid excuse not to pay your damage claim in the event of an
incident.
3. since you would have to build this modified airplane from scratch anyway,
why not just build an RV-7 from scratch? It wouldn't cost much more.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
> First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
> was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
> materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
> going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
> 320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
> should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
> 180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
> to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
> Bruce
> P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
> trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
> pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
> engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
> pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
> in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
> cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.601XL Fuel Tank Capacity |
601XL Fuel Tank Capacity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Here we only use auto gas in our ultralights (yes my 701 is an ultralight here)
and nothing happened yet to the universal... (48 x2 tanks gas check) maybe
a little yellow, but perfectly clear. I should have a spare just in case.
Thanks for the advise.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Pemex Premium 92 O Gasoline lead free.
Paul Tipton <PTIPTON@swmail.sw.org> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton"
I used one of the universal models and auto gas ruined it!
Paul Tipton
N321PT
CH701
---------------------------------
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA |
rules
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> rules
Hi Bill,
I also agree with Jim and the others sentiments on Bruce's goals
being improper. On the other hand, I chose to send Bruce an off list
message suggesting he get a few hundred hours experience as a pilot
and then build himself the RV-7A he seems to want rather than
pretending he could handle this high performance aircraft with merely
a Sport Pilot license and training.
On your point about "Watchers" and folks with "Other interests", I
hope you are being overly paranoid. I think the standard aircraft
manufacturers are all enjoying huge order backlogs and they would be
wise to consider the SP/LSA movement as something that enhances GA
and their own business rather than competition that needs to get the
Microsoft treatment.
With the fine example our "Fearless Leaders" are setting in the war
on terror, I can understand anyone going overboard with paranoia. I
just don't think this is the example to lose sleep over.
Hang in there,
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
At 11:46 AM 12/8/2005, you wrote:
>Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
>Dear Thread Friends, after reading Bruce's message it raised a question about
>who might be monitoring this and other threads. Maybe my normal paranoia is
>showing, but could Bruce be an investigator trying to interject himself to
>learn about violations and such? I echo Jim's sentiment and what he
>said. Further,
>you have to know that there are a bunch of powerful folks with interests
>counter to the Light Sport Aircraft rules and experimental aviation
>in general.
>All you have to do is think of all the experimental homebuilt
>aircraft you see
>at Fun in Sun, ask yourself what if the were Certified Factory aircraft and
>consider that value to certified GA manufactures and then you see
>who might not
>wish us well. What we experimenter do is so special and I am so proud to be
>associated with such fine fellows as you all that I would never
>consider risking
>losing the privileges I have earned. And I will not associate with anyone who
>will risk it. Bruce, if that is who you really are, take a hike.
>Bill of Georgia N505WP, 601XL
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 54
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Weird. The list server for this list doesn't pass on attachments and an
e-mail without an attachment can't convey a virus. That is not to say that
it can't contain a link to a web page which can infect your PC through
various flaws in web browsers.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill naumuk
Subject: Zenith-List: Scary
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
All-
I'm not supposed to look at personal e-mail at work, but, well, you
know.
We have a series of mega-strength virus firewalls, one of which will set
a message aside and highlight possible virus intrusions in red, along with a
description of the virus. If you don't think there's a problem, you can go
ahead and open a message.
6 of the 27 list messages yesterday were set aside in red. I've never
seen this before, and needless to say, I've broken company policy in the
past.
Bill
do not archive
do not rat me out to my employer
Message 55
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|
| Subject: | Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA rules |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
If this post was addressed to me, please note that it was someone else who
made the suggestions regarding: "Watchers" and folks with "Other interests".
Bill Denton
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
rules
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA
rules
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
rules
Hi Bill,
I also agree with Jim and the others sentiments on Bruce's goals
being improper. On the other hand, I chose to send Bruce an off list
message suggesting he get a few hundred hours experience as a pilot
and then build himself the RV-7A he seems to want rather than
pretending he could handle this high performance aircraft with merely
a Sport Pilot license and training.
On your point about "Watchers" and folks with "Other interests", I
hope you are being overly paranoid. I think the standard aircraft
manufacturers are all enjoying huge order backlogs and they would be
wise to consider the SP/LSA movement as something that enhances GA
and their own business rather than competition that needs to get the
Microsoft treatment.
With the fine example our "Fearless Leaders" are setting in the war
on terror, I can understand anyone going overboard with paranoia. I
just don't think this is the example to lose sleep over.
Hang in there,
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
At 11:46 AM 12/8/2005, you wrote:
>Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
>Dear Thread Friends, after reading Bruce's message it raised a question
about
>who might be monitoring this and other threads. Maybe my normal paranoia is
>showing, but could Bruce be an investigator trying to interject himself to
>learn about violations and such? I echo Jim's sentiment and what he
>said. Further,
>you have to know that there are a bunch of powerful folks with interests
>counter to the Light Sport Aircraft rules and experimental aviation
>in general.
>All you have to do is think of all the experimental homebuilt
>aircraft you see
>at Fun in Sun, ask yourself what if the were Certified Factory aircraft and
>consider that value to certified GA manufactures and then you see
>who might not
>wish us well. What we experimenter do is so special and I am so proud to be
>associated with such fine fellows as you all that I would never
>consider risking
>losing the privileges I have earned. And I will not associate with anyone
who
>will risk it. Bruce, if that is who you really are, take a hike.
>Bill of Georgia N505WP, 601XL
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 56
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
I appreciate all of the good input I have recieved on the subject! I do find
it interesting how some people here get pretty worked up in hurry though.
Remember, I have not done anything yet- all I've done is talk about what I
would like to do. Don't you think claiming you've reported someone to the
thought police is just a little extreme? Enough on that subject- are any of
you guys fimiliar with the sonex known as the cleanex? Does anyone know what
catagory it is regestered in? the engine weighs only 15lbs more than a
3300Jabaru, but if he twists it 3300RPM, he cruises about 185mph! This in a
aircraft that clearly qualifies for LSA if he just keeps the RPM down! Now,
I don't expect anyone to put in writing that they are wilfully going to
"break the rules" but do you really think nobody is going to push that
throttle in just a little more? All I am interested in is a dialog about the
possibilities that are out there and how a person can create what they want
and what the ramafications of doing that are. Let's keep this thread going-
it's great!!
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> 1. I don't think you understand the LSA rules as well as you think you do.
> You can't legally switch an airplane from LSA compliant to non compliant
> and
> back, it must be built to the LSA limitations and remain in compliance for
> it's entire history to remain eligible for LSA status. It's not like an
> airplane that can be flown in the utility category at one gross weight and
> flown in the normal category at a higher gross weight.
>
> 2. You can't can't legally change engines in an amateur built airplane
> after
> certification without informing the FAA and putting the airplane back into
> phase I testing. I believe you have to test for an additional 5 hours in
> the
> new configuration before you can return the plane to normal flight status.
> Failing to follow this rule will at the very least give your insurance
> company a valid excuse not to pay your damage claim in the event of an
> incident.
>
> 3. since you would have to build this modified airplane from scratch
> anyway,
> why not just build an RV-7 from scratch? It wouldn't cost much more.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> do not archive.
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>>
>> First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
>> was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
>> materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
>> going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
>> 320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
>> should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
>> 180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
>> to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
>> Bruce
>> P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
>> trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
>> pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
>> engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
>> pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
>> in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
>> cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
>
>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA rules |
version=3.0.3
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
I always thought that Fearless Leader was Boris Badenov and Natasha Fatale's
boss.
http://bullwinkle.toonzone.net/characters-bullwinkle.htm
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
rules
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bruce's message on willfully violation of FAA
rules
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
--> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> rules
Hi Bill,
I also agree with Jim and the others sentiments on Bruce's goals being
improper. On the other hand, I chose to send Bruce an off list message
suggesting he get a few hundred hours experience as a pilot and then build
himself the RV-7A he seems to want rather than pretending he could handle
this high performance aircraft with merely a Sport Pilot license and
training.
On your point about "Watchers" and folks with "Other interests", I hope you
are being overly paranoid. I think the standard aircraft manufacturers are
all enjoying huge order backlogs and they would be wise to consider the
SP/LSA movement as something that enhances GA and their own business rather
than competition that needs to get the Microsoft treatment.
With the fine example our "Fearless Leaders" are setting in the war on
terror, I can understand anyone going overboard with paranoia. I just don't
think this is the example to lose sleep over.
Hang in there,
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
At 11:46 AM 12/8/2005, you wrote:
>Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
>Dear Thread Friends, after reading Bruce's message it raised a question
>about who might be monitoring this and other threads. Maybe my normal
>paranoia is showing, but could Bruce be an investigator trying to
>interject himself to learn about violations and such? I echo Jim's
>sentiment and what he said. Further, you have to know that there are a
>bunch of powerful folks with interests counter to the Light Sport
>Aircraft rules and experimental aviation in general.
>All you have to do is think of all the experimental homebuilt aircraft
>you see at Fun in Sun, ask yourself what if the were Certified Factory
>aircraft and consider that value to certified GA manufactures and then
>you see who might not wish us well. What we experimenter do is so
>special and I am so proud to be associated with such fine fellows as
>you all that I would never consider risking losing the privileges I
>have earned. And I will not associate with anyone who will risk it.
>Bruce, if that is who you really are, take a hike.
>Bill of Georgia N505WP, 601XL
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 58
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity. Universal tube marks. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hi Jon,
Yes, has to affect a little. probably more if the front wheel is out of level...
Not sure how much affects if the mains are a little out of level, because
the filler is in the front high central part of each wing tank...
I drained and messured the gasoline when I bought the tube, (got back from a
family trip to Disneyland (Los Angeles).., yes I manage to drive one afternoon
to Corona ;-)
I refilled the tanks with 10 liters at a time (red 2.5 gallon gasoline plastic
jug), one jug each tank until got 38 liters just at the base of the filler
neck. Noting the reading in the tube for each jug.
Since we did the test flight, some gasoline was always sifoned out (the wing
had stains with the little dirt it had) when flown with full tanks. So I call
it full at 35 liters. (no stains since that full mark)
Also, as the tank is not a perfect square box. From the 35 liter mark, I drained
first 5 liters and noted it, then 5 more (up to 10) and noted this mark
also.
This way when the gasoline position is below the 10 liter mark , I can add safely
a jug without spiling the gasoline over the wing (or five liters in the case).
10 liters jugs work perfect for me to fill the plane, steping on a two step kitchen
ladder.
Bigger jugs are too heavy for me and tiresome to hold up in the air until the
gasoline gets to a confortable (lighter) level :-)
All this is in the card that got with the tube, with the preflight cards.
Also I estimated the lph at cruise speed and made a 1, 2, and 3 hour flight
time note marks (red pen) in the card.
Yes, double checking that BOTH tanks are at the same level, remember that both
tanks are interconected in the 701.
From this, just aply a little common sense to the timing of your flight and back
up with the electric gas level instruments.
Just a Comment: Remember to park the plane with the wings as level as possible,
for a long time (overnight), this to prevent some of the gasoline to go from
the higher tank to the lower and lots of money could drain in the grass :-(
Just in case,we installed a little 1/4" gas valves in each hose, safetied open
with a little tie grap. to be able ot close the tanks if we park in unlevel
in a XCountry flight...
Happened to a pilot once a few years ago.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Jon Croke <jon@joncroke.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke"
Gary,
Did you find that how LEVEL the ground your plane is sitting on would affect
the reading? Either left to right, or front to back? OR did it not make
that much difference?
Jon
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Gower"
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuel Tank Capacity.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower
>
> We all know that all electric fuel meters can give wrong readings...
>
> The only one I trust before every flight is this one:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/fuelhawkfuelgauge.php
>
> Got the Universal model ( part No. 13-00439) and I calibrated (in
> liters) ever 10 liters. Never fails. I also marked every estimated
> hour of fuel time.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.
> 701 912S
>
---------------------------------
Message 59
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| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I didn't know the Sonex was that fast? What you can be fairly certain is
that the DAR probably does, in other words if he see what he thinks is a
fast airplane he is almost certainly going to be very interested what
exactly you have done to slow it down.
I think the Rules state that the airplane has to have a maximum "design"
speed of 138mph (I'm by no means and expert on the LSA rules), so I
wonder what happens when you have a plane that is clearly designed to go
faster but has been modified to slow it down?
It would be fun to see the look on a DAR's face as you stand next to a
turbine Lanceair 4P with your sport pilot certificate though..:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Lee
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
I appreciate all of the good input I have recieved on the subject! I do
find it interesting how some people here get pretty worked up in hurry
though.
Remember, I have not done anything yet- all I've done is talk about what
I would like to do. Don't you think claiming you've reported someone to
the thought police is just a little extreme? Enough on that subject- are
any of you guys fimiliar with the sonex known as the cleanex? Does
anyone know what catagory it is regestered in? the engine weighs only
15lbs more than a 3300Jabaru, but if he twists it 3300RPM, he cruises
about 185mph! This in a aircraft that clearly qualifies for LSA if he
just keeps the RPM down! Now, I don't expect anyone to put in writing
that they are wilfully going to "break the rules" but do you really
think nobody is going to push that throttle in just a little more? All I
am interested in is a dialog about the possibilities that are out there
and how a person can create what they want and what the ramafications of
doing that are. Let's keep this thread going- it's great!!
Bruce
Message 60
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Bruce,
You can use a bigger engine, and out race an F-14, this way you could fly over
the white house instead of loosing time flying around the place... :-)
:-)
You are kidding!!!, You are not a pilot! We pilots dont think that way...
At least if we plan keep our privilege of flying and more important: to comb
gray hair eventualy...
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive
jim <jim@pellien.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim"
Bruce,
It is people like yourself who could cause these great new SP and LSA rules to
be rescinded some day because of violations like what you are proposing. My recommendation:
Stay in the 51% world and be legal.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
jim@sportsplanes.com
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
>was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
>materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
>going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
>320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
>should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
>180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
>to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
>Bruce
>P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
>trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
>pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
>engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
>pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
>in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
>cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: jim
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 11:55 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim"
>>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Short answer: You cannot do this.
>>
>> You need to read up on the regulations for LSA aircraft at the
>> EAA.org website and the FAA regulations themselves. Also I'd
>> recommend that you look through the archives for the Sport
>> Aircraft Forum to learn more about the new rules.
>>
>> When you buy one of the Zenith kits and build the aircraft, you
>> will certify it in the 51% built category, not as an ELSA.
>>
>> For an aircraft to be flown by a Sport Pilot it must conform to
>> many performance limitations. One of them is that the maximum
>> continuous cruise speed must not exceed 138 mph. If the maximum
>> continuous cruise speed is above 138 mph it is not a LSA and
>> cannot be flown by a sport pilot.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Jim Pellien
>> Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
>> www.MASPL.com
>> 703-313-4818
>> jim@sportsplanes.com
>>
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>> From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:08:16 -0600
>>
>> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm
>> trying
>> >to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple
>> questions
>> >if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know
>> the
>> >max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could
>> push it
>> >to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question-
>> what
>> >would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What
>> I'm
>> >getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will
>> far
>> >exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I
>> guess
>> >I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown
>> by
>> >someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of
>> 2000).
>> >Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>> >Bruce
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>> >Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>> >
>> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>> >>
>> >> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds
>> of
>> >> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons
>> of
>> >> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to
>> re
>> >> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to
>> you
>> >> all, Bill of Georgia
>> >>
---------------------------------
Message 61
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| Subject: | Drawing updates? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: rlendon@comcast.net
Help,
I have been working on making all the forms but have ran into a snag. No dimensions
for the Aft (detail 3) and Middle (detail 1) Bulkheads are missing from
print 6-B-12 dated 7/05. I sent an e-mail to Zenith Aircraft Company Technical
Support and received no reply. So yesterday I called, they started to tell me
the dimensions from a newer print and told they would e-mail the newer print
with the dimensions. That hasn't happened yet.
Question: Is there a location on the Builder Pages where these files are stored?
I have found the Summary Pages but they aren't up to date either.
Starving for correct information.
--
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/
Do Not Archive
Message 62
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| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Bruce,
When an aircraft is certificated as an ELSA and SLSA, the manufacturer must
certify that the aircraft has a maximum continuous cruise speed less than
138 mph or 120 kts. I know of no manufacturer who would certify a 185 mph
airplane as a 138 mph airplane and lose his license in the process.
Get Real!!!!
I'm beginning to think you either are pulling our collective legs, or you
really have never read anything about the light sport aircraft rules.
I recommended this before and I'll do it again......read the rules at
www.eaa.org.........then come here with reasonable questions.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Lee
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
I appreciate all of the good input I have recieved on the subject! I do find
it interesting how some people here get pretty worked up in hurry though.
Remember, I have not done anything yet- all I've done is talk about what I
would like to do. Don't you think claiming you've reported someone to the
thought police is just a little extreme? Enough on that subject- are any of
you guys fimiliar with the sonex known as the cleanex? Does anyone know what
catagory it is regestered in? the engine weighs only 15lbs more than a
3300Jabaru, but if he twists it 3300RPM, he cruises about 185mph! This in a
aircraft that clearly qualifies for LSA if he just keeps the RPM down! Now,
I don't expect anyone to put in writing that they are wilfully going to
"break the rules" but do you really think nobody is going to push that
throttle in just a little more? All I am interested in is a dialog about the
possibilities that are out there and how a person can create what they want
and what the ramafications of doing that are. Let's keep this thread going-
it's great!!
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> 1. I don't think you understand the LSA rules as well as you think you do.
> You can't legally switch an airplane from LSA compliant to non compliant
> and
> back, it must be built to the LSA limitations and remain in compliance for
> it's entire history to remain eligible for LSA status. It's not like an
> airplane that can be flown in the utility category at one gross weight and
> flown in the normal category at a higher gross weight.
>
> 2. You can't can't legally change engines in an amateur built airplane
> after
> certification without informing the FAA and putting the airplane back into
> phase I testing. I believe you have to test for an additional 5 hours in
> the
> new configuration before you can return the plane to normal flight status.
> Failing to follow this rule will at the very least give your insurance
> company a valid excuse not to pay your damage claim in the event of an
> incident.
>
> 3. since you would have to build this modified airplane from scratch
> anyway,
> why not just build an RV-7 from scratch? It wouldn't cost much more.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> do not archive.
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>>
>> First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
>> was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
>> materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
>> going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
>> 320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
>> should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
>> 180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
>> to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
>> Bruce
>> P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
>> trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
>> pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
>> engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
>> pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
>> in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
>> cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
>
>
>
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
The Cleanex is registered as Experimental.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
>
> I appreciate all of the good input I have recieved on the subject! I do
find
> it interesting how some people here get pretty worked up in hurry
though.
> Remember, I have not done anything yet- all I've done is talk about what
I
> would like to do. Don't you think claiming you've reported someone to
the
> thought police is just a little extreme? Enough on that subject- are any
of
> you guys fimiliar with the sonex known as the cleanex? Does anyone know
what
> catagory it is regestered in? the engine weighs only 15lbs more than a
> 3300Jabaru, but if he twists it 3300RPM, he cruises about 185mph! This
in a
> aircraft that clearly qualifies for LSA if he just keeps the RPM down!
Now,
> I don't expect anyone to put in writing that they are wilfully going to
> "break the rules" but do you really think nobody is going to push that
> throttle in just a little more? All I am interested in is a dialog about
the
> possibilities that are out there and how a person can create what they
want
> and what the ramafications of doing that are. Let's keep this thread
going-
> it's great!!
> Bruce
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> To: "Zenith List" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>>
>> 1. I don't think you understand the LSA rules as well as you think you
do.
>> You can't legally switch an airplane from LSA compliant to non
compliant
>> and
>> back, it must be built to the LSA limitations and remain in compliance
for
>> it's entire history to remain eligible for LSA status. It's not like an
>> airplane that can be flown in the utility category at one gross weight
and
>> flown in the normal category at a higher gross weight.
>>
>> 2. You can't can't legally change engines in an amateur built airplane
>> after
>> certification without informing the FAA and putting the airplane back
into
>> phase I testing. I believe you have to test for an additional 5 hours
in
>> the
>> new configuration before you can return the plane to normal flight
status.
>> Failing to follow this rule will at the very least give your insurance
>> company a valid excuse not to pay your damage claim in the event of an
>> incident.
>>
>> 3. since you would have to build this modified airplane from scratch
>> anyway,
>> why not just build an RV-7 from scratch? It wouldn't cost much more.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bryan Martin
>> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
>> do not archive.
>>
>>
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>>>
>>> First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
>>> was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
>>> materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
>>> going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
>>> 320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
>>> should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
>>> 180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
>>> to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
>>> Bruce
>>> P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
>>> trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
>>> pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
>>> engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
>>> pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
>>> in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
>>> cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
Yep, the sonex is that fast. At sea level, the cruise speed is 135mph. At
8000ft TAS is 170mph(normal max cruise)- they do not spec rpm(VNE is
actually 197mph). Zenith claims 138mph cruise @ 2800 rpm- well below what
the engine can comfortably cruise at- you can twist it past 3200 with out
much worry. Yet both of these planes are "poster children" for LSA when they
are both capable of much higher than legal speed by just pushing in the
lever- what gives? All I can think of is everyone is relying on self control
by the pilot- yea, right. Another example is the J250 by Jabaru aircraft
company- when it's not LSA, it has four seats and goes a whole bunch faster
than 138mph. Pull out two seats and limit the rpm and weight and viola! you
have a LSA- am I the only person who notices this stuff? I don't think so.
Why don't other people want to discuss this?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I didn't know the Sonex was that fast? What you can be fairly certain is
> that the DAR probably does, in other words if he see what he thinks is a
> fast airplane he is almost certainly going to be very interested what
> exactly you have done to slow it down.
>
> I think the Rules state that the airplane has to have a maximum "design"
> speed of 138mph (I'm by no means and expert on the LSA rules), so I
> wonder what happens when you have a plane that is clearly designed to go
> faster but has been modified to slow it down?
>
> It would be fun to see the look on a DAR's face as you stand next to a
> turbine Lanceair 4P with your sport pilot certificate though..:)
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Lee
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
>
> I appreciate all of the good input I have recieved on the subject! I do
> find it interesting how some people here get pretty worked up in hurry
> though.
> Remember, I have not done anything yet- all I've done is talk about what
> I would like to do. Don't you think claiming you've reported someone to
> the thought police is just a little extreme? Enough on that subject- are
> any of you guys fimiliar with the sonex known as the cleanex? Does
> anyone know what catagory it is regestered in? the engine weighs only
> 15lbs more than a 3300Jabaru, but if he twists it 3300RPM, he cruises
> about 185mph! This in a aircraft that clearly qualifies for LSA if he
> just keeps the RPM down! Now, I don't expect anyone to put in writing
> that they are wilfully going to "break the rules" but do you really
> think nobody is going to push that throttle in just a little more? All I
> am interested in is a dialog about the possibilities that are out there
> and how a person can create what they want and what the ramafications of
> doing that are. Let's keep this thread going- it's great!!
> Bruce
>
>
>
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
I believe the top end is 120 Kts max CRUISE.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I didn't know the Sonex was that fast? What you can be fairly certain is
> that the DAR probably does, in other words if he see what he thinks is a
> fast airplane he is almost certainly going to be very interested what
> exactly you have done to slow it down.
>
> I think the Rules state that the airplane has to have a maximum "design"
> speed of 138mph (I'm by no means and expert on the LSA rules), so I
> wonder what happens when you have a plane that is clearly designed to go
> faster but has been modified to slow it down?
>
> It would be fun to see the look on a DAR's face as you stand next to a
> turbine Lanceair 4P with your sport pilot certificate though..:)
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Lee
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
>
> I appreciate all of the good input I have recieved on the subject! I do
> find it interesting how some people here get pretty worked up in hurry
> though.
> Remember, I have not done anything yet- all I've done is talk about what
> I would like to do. Don't you think claiming you've reported someone to
> the thought police is just a little extreme? Enough on that subject- are
> any of you guys fimiliar with the sonex known as the cleanex? Does
> anyone know what catagory it is regestered in? the engine weighs only
> 15lbs more than a 3300Jabaru, but if he twists it 3300RPM, he cruises
> about 185mph! This in a aircraft that clearly qualifies for LSA if he
> just keeps the RPM down! Now, I don't expect anyone to put in writing
> that they are wilfully going to "break the rules" but do you really
> think nobody is going to push that throttle in just a little more? All I
> am interested in is a dialog about the possibilities that are out there
> and how a person can create what they want and what the ramafications of
> doing that are. Let's keep this thread going- it's great!!
> Bruce
>
>
>
Message 66
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sorry Bruce and group.
I apologize, I got carried on, I normally dont joke, was too crude.
But yes, is breaking the rules, like the pilots of over 254 lbs 103 rule
ultralights in USA. Maybe can get with it , but is not legal.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Sorry one more time.
Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower
Bruce,
You can use a bigger engine, and out race an F-14, this way you could fly over
the white house instead of loosing time flying around the place... :-) :-)
You are kidding!!!, You are not a pilot! We pilots dont think that way... At least
if we plan keep our privilege of flying and more important: to comb gray hair
eventualy...
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive
jim wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim"
Bruce,
It is people like yourself who could cause these great new SP and LSA rules to
be rescinded some day because of violations like what you are proposing. My recommendation:
Stay in the 51% world and be legal.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
jim@sportsplanes.com
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>
>First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
>was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
>materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
>going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
>320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
>should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
>180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
>to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
>Bruce
>P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
>trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
>pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
>engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
>pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
>in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
>cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: jim
>Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 11:55 am
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim"
>>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Short answer: You cannot do this.
>>
>> You need to read up on the regulations for LSA aircraft at the
>> EAA.org website and the FAA regulations themselves. Also I'd
>> recommend that you look through the archives for the Sport
>> Aircraft Forum to learn more about the new rules.
>>
>> When you buy one of the Zenith kits and build the aircraft, you
>> will certify it in the 51% built category, not as an ELSA.
>>
>> For an aircraft to be flown by a Sport Pilot it must conform to
>> many performance limitations. One of them is that the maximum
>> continuous cruise speed must not exceed 138 mph. If the maximum
>> continuous cruise speed is above 138 mph it is not a LSA and
>> cannot be flown by a sport pilot.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Jim Pellien
>> Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
>> www.MASPL.com
>> 703-313-4818
>> jim@sportsplanes.com
>>
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>> From: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:08:16 -0600
>>
>> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi! I'm new to this list but have followed it for a while. I'm
>> trying
>> >to decide if the 601XL is the kit for me and I have a couple
>> questions
>> >if you guys could help out, it would be much appreaciated. I know
>> the
>> >max weight is listed at 1320 but I was wondering if you could
>> push it
>> >to 1450-1500 if you don't do any acrobatics? Second question-
>> what
>> >would you need to do(airframe mods) to push the VNE to 200? What
>> I'm
>> >getting at is creating a plane that is registered ELSA, but will
>> far
>> >exceed the limitations as soon as your away from the airport. I
>> guess
>> >I want it to preform like a RV7A but be called an ELSA when flown
>> by
>> >someone with only a sport pilot ticket(such as a RPM redline of
>> 2000).
>> >Thank you for any insights you guys might have in this area.
>> >Bruce
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: japhillipsga@aol.com
>> >Date: Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:23 am
>> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>> >
>> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
>> >>
>> >> Jim is correct so with the lighter 3300 when I have 35 pounds
>> of
>> >> baggage and 360 pounds of people I require at least 5 gallons
>> of
>> >> fuel in the tanks to land safely within the W&B. I may have to
>> re
>> >> compute my w&b for max of 22 gallons as opposed to 24. Best to
>> you
>> >> all, Bill of Georgia
>> >>
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
Message 67
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| Subject: | Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
And what is the speed of a "stock" Sonex with a Jabiru 3300? Should be about
that of the Cleenex.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Lee
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
Yep, the sonex is that fast. At sea level, the cruise speed is 135mph. At
8000ft TAS is 170mph(normal max cruise)- they do not spec rpm(VNE is
actually 197mph). Zenith claims 138mph cruise @ 2800 rpm- well below what
the engine can comfortably cruise at- you can twist it past 3200 with out
much worry. Yet both of these planes are "poster children" for LSA when they
are both capable of much higher than legal speed by just pushing in the
lever- what gives? All I can think of is everyone is relying on self control
by the pilot- yea, right. Another example is the J250 by Jabaru aircraft
company- when it's not LSA, it has four seats and goes a whole bunch faster
than 138mph. Pull out two seats and limit the rpm and weight and viola! you
have a LSA- am I the only person who notices this stuff? I don't think so.
Why don't other people want to discuss this?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I didn't know the Sonex was that fast? What you can be fairly certain
> is that the DAR probably does, in other words if he see what he thinks
> is a fast airplane he is almost certainly going to be very interested
> what exactly you have done to slow it down.
>
> I think the Rules state that the airplane has to have a maximum "design"
> speed of 138mph (I'm by no means and expert on the LSA rules), so I
> wonder what happens when you have a plane that is clearly designed to
> go faster but has been modified to slow it down?
>
> It would be fun to see the look on a DAR's face as you stand next to a
> turbine Lanceair 4P with your sport pilot certificate though..:)
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Lee
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
>
> I appreciate all of the good input I have recieved on the subject! I
> do find it interesting how some people here get pretty worked up in
> hurry though.
> Remember, I have not done anything yet- all I've done is talk about
> what I would like to do. Don't you think claiming you've reported
> someone to the thought police is just a little extreme? Enough on that
> subject- are any of you guys fimiliar with the sonex known as the
> cleanex? Does anyone know what catagory it is regestered in? the
> engine weighs only 15lbs more than a 3300Jabaru, but if he twists it
> 3300RPM, he cruises about 185mph! This in a aircraft that clearly
> qualifies for LSA if he just keeps the RPM down! Now, I don't expect
> anyone to put in writing that they are wilfully going to "break the
> rules" but do you really think nobody is going to push that throttle
> in just a little more? All I am interested in is a dialog about the
> possibilities that are out there and how a person can create what they
> want and what the ramafications of doing that are. Let's keep this thread
going- it's great!!
> Bruce
>
>
>
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> You are kidding!!!, You are not a pilot!
Guys, before you bash the guy every which way, it might be prudent to at least
write what he wrote:
"My last plane was a 180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed."
Of course, that doesn't mean he's licensed, and maybe he admitted somewhere that
he isn't a pilot and I missed it. But geez....how about lightening up a bit?
Let the guy do what he wants, and if you choose to give advice, how about something
constructive (or if not, then nothing at all?) Are you gonna bash me
too because I drove over the speed limit on my way home tonight, and that might
cause the government to rescind our rights to drive? This has gotten ridiculous...how
about back to homebuilding a Zodiac?
Mike Fortunato
601XL
DO NOT ARCHIVE
---------------------------------
Message 69
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Bruce,
I agree with you that this is an interesting thread. Alas, it is
also a bit frustrating for some of us, so give us a little slack.
The Sonex is a very similar plane to the Zodiac. It is all metal,
uses a similar size engine, and has two seats. I believe it is a lot
smaller in the cockpit area and generally a bit faster in cruise
speed. While the Sonex people claim it is LSA compatible, that is a
subject that might not be agreed upon by the FAA or the insurance
companies. It meets the gross weight and stall speed limitations,
but the cruise speed may be a bit high.
Fortunately for some of us, the cruise speed limit on LSA is very
vague. It includes qualifiers about "Maximum Continuous Power" and
"Sea Level" which are difficult to nail down when we don't fly at sea
level and nobody really knows what "Maximum Continuous Power" really
means. I generally believe this is a non-issue for those of us who
are flying under Sport Pilot restrictions due to lack of a medical certificate.
The issue of maximum gross weight is a horse of a different
color. It is very clear what this means, and a plane must have this
number specified before it can be issued an airworthiness
certificate. It is not something you can change from one flight to
the next. If your plane has a maximum gross weight over 1320 pounds
it clearly is not compliant with LSA and cannot be flown under Sport
Pilot limitations. It is possible, and indeed common, for pilots to
fly their planes loaded over gross weight occasionally. They should
realize they are violating the limits placed on the plane and may pay
the ultimate price for this violation. I would hope they consider
the actual weather conditions (particularly density altitude) and
their own pilot skills when flying with an overloaded plane. It is
much more likely for a plane to stall under this condition and the
characteristics of both stalls and normal flight may be considerably
different from the normal ones.
Other LSA limits which may or may not be met with either a Sonex or
Zodiac include fixed pitch or ground adjustable prop. If you install
an in-flight adjustable or constant speed prop you are, once again,
out of the realm of LSA. This doesn't mean you can't do it. It just
means you need a private pilot certificate or better and a medical
certificate to fly the plane.
I think I speak the thoughts of many listers when I suggest you avoid
violating the rules of LSA and SP limitations if you want to fly
under the Sport Pilot rule. I think we are all a bit nervous about
the new freedom it gives us (particularly those of us who can't
easily get a new medical certificate) and we don't want to wave any
red flags in front of the FAA bull.
If it is your desire to avoid the cost and effort of getting a higher
level license than the Sport Pilot certificate, then I urge you to
reconsider your goals. I personally think the Sport Pilot
certificate is a nice starting place for a new pilot to get to fly
but I don't think it is a good ending place for him to stay. I
believe the more we know the more likely we will survive the
inevitable tense moments that come up from time to time while
flying. I personally think training is one of the things we should
all continue to do throughout our flying careers. Even if we don't
actually get additional ratings and certificates, I think it is wise
to continue gaining skills like those needed by commercial pilots and
instrument ratings just to have a high likelihood if survival as
general aviation pilots in the real world.
After all of that, I wish you luck in your airplane building and
flying future. I also encourage you to consider anything and discuss
anything, but expect harsh reactions if you seem to be planning on
intentionally violating the rules. We have a tradition of following
the rules in the experimental airplane community, and most of us
don't take kindly to other people doing things we feel may endanger
our own freedom to exercise our rights to build and fly our planes.
Paul
XL wings
At 04:54 PM 12/8/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Lee" <brucelee@mn.rr.com>
>
>I appreciate all of the good input I have recieved on the subject! I do find
>it interesting how some people here get pretty worked up in hurry though.
>Remember, I have not done anything yet- all I've done is talk about what I
>would like to do. Don't you think claiming you've reported someone to the
>thought police is just a little extreme? Enough on that subject- are any of
>you guys fimiliar with the sonex known as the cleanex? Does anyone know what
>catagory it is regestered in? the engine weighs only 15lbs more than a
>3300Jabaru, but if he twists it 3300RPM, he cruises about 185mph! This in a
>aircraft that clearly qualifies for LSA if he just keeps the RPM down! Now,
>I don't expect anyone to put in writing that they are wilfully going to
>"break the rules" but do you really think nobody is going to push that
>throttle in just a little more? All I am interested in is a dialog about the
>possibilities that are out there and how a person can create what they want
>and what the ramafications of doing that are. Let's keep this thread going-
>it's great!!
>Bruce
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>To: "Zenith List" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> >
> > 1. I don't think you understand the LSA rules as well as you think you do.
> > You can't legally switch an airplane from LSA compliant to non compliant
> > and
> > back, it must be built to the LSA limitations and remain in compliance for
> > it's entire history to remain eligible for LSA status. It's not like an
> > airplane that can be flown in the utility category at one gross weight and
> > flown in the normal category at a higher gross weight.
> >
> > 2. You can't can't legally change engines in an amateur built airplane
> > after
> > certification without informing the FAA and putting the airplane back into
> > phase I testing. I believe you have to test for an additional 5 hours in
> > the
> > new configuration before you can return the plane to normal flight status.
> > Failing to follow this rule will at the very least give your insurance
> > company a valid excuse not to pay your damage claim in the event of an
> > incident.
> >
> > 3. since you would have to build this modified airplane from scratch
> > anyway,
> > why not just build an RV-7 from scratch? It wouldn't cost much more.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bryan Martin
> > N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> > do not archive.
> >
> >
> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: brucelee@mn.rr.com
> >>
> >> First, I appreciate your response- it is helpful and constructive. I
> >> was thinking of plans building a 601XL and subsituting thicker
> >> materials to increase the overall strength of the airframe. I was
> >> going to use a o-235 for certification purposes, then switch to a o-
> >> 320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt, sorry). Maybe I
> >> should just skip it and go with a RV7A/io-390? My last plane was a
> >> 180KT twin and you get used to traveling that speed. I'm just trying
> >> to figure out how to duplicate that as cheaply as possible.
> >> Bruce
> >> P.S. I've read all the LSA rules and regs and I understand them. I'm
> >> trying to build a multipurpose aircraft that will qualify for sport
> >> pilot rules when you only have 10 gal of fuel on board and redline the
> >> engine at an artificially low RPM and no luggage. Then when a "reguar
> >> pilot is in command, you fill up the tanks, throw the overnight bags
> >> in the back, and twist the engine way past redline- say 2800 RPM and
> >> cruise 165KTs. I think This will require a ground adjustable prop.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 70
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith 601XL Weight & Balance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Bruce,
I won't slam the rules thing, I break rules every
day in the plane and the car... And it has been
beaten to death anyway...
I will point out a couple of other possible
sticking points:
>>I was thinking of plans building a 601XL and
subsituting thicker
>>materials to increase the overall strength of the
airframe.
Substituting thicker materials to increase the
strength of the airframe is not the best approach. It
is like fusing a disc in your back. It may relieve
stress on that disc, but the surrounding discs will be
stressed further. I always get a little concerned
when I hear comments like this.
>>I was going to use a o-235 for certification
purposes, then switch to a o-
>>320/160hp after the fact( I meant Ex- homebuilt,
sorry).
This would obviously qualify as a "major change,"
requiring paperwork with the FAA. Putting a 150hp
engine in the place of 120hp max, at a significant
weight penalty is asking for major issues as well.
265# to 290# depending on config is a lot of weight
for this aircraft - even if you "thicken" up some
parts.
It occurred to me that if you can afford an
O-320, then you could probably look into some pretty
racey aircraft. I say forget the Zenith and build a
rocket F1 (See this months Kitplanes). When you get
too old and fat and broken to get a medical, sell the
rocket and buy two LSA's...
-Probably not what you wanted to hear, but it sounds
to me you are asking for a sweet wholesome girl who is
a devil in bed. I am told she only exists in my
dreams. If you find her, let me know...
R/
Brandon
Message 71
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| Subject: | Hello from new CH-701 builder with questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rory Davis <n7cr@bellsouth.net>
Hi folks,
Thought I'd introduce myself and ask some novice builder type questions. Been
reading the list via the web browser for a couple of months while waiting for my
CH701 kit to arrive. Hurricane Katrina held up delivery, was supposed to ship
first week October... well, tomorrow the crate is scheduled to arrive, and I'm
so excited that I got up the courage to join in here tonight. Got some stick
time in a local's 701 in April at an EAA fly-in, liked the way it felt.
Ordered the 701 kit with 912 FWF, cabin heat, bubble doors, nav lights and
folding wing option.
This will be my second kitplane, assembled a Kitfox Lite a couple of years ago
and plan to sell it to pay for the 912 when ready for it. Got a taste of tube &
fabric, now I'm looking forward to doing all-aluminum construction. This _is_
supposed to be educational, right?
You can see a picture of my Kitfox here:
<http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/171/171765/folders/118077/827575Carnplane4.jpg>
Haven't had much to do with sheet metal work since high school metal shop 30
years ago, however, getting good technical advice and mentoring from an
experienced A&P for this project.
Now for the questions:
Firewall forward. Is the Skyshops fwf really that much faster than the ZAC
supplied fwf? Stupid me, should have waited, didn't discover the availability of
the Skyshops fwf until too late... Does anybody know if ZAC will accept a return
of the parts that won't be needed? From the pics, the Skyshops cowl has a much
better fit and finish than the ZAC cowl. If it's too big of a deal to return
the pieces suppose could sell the ZAC cowl to a scratch builder and buy the
retrofit kit.
Carb heat & cabin heat with the Skyshops fwf. Can both be done or do you have to
choose one or the other? Will a special muffler shroud be needed?
Next question. What did you find to be the most difficult task in the assembly
process? Slats? What has the most "gotcha's"?
That's about it for now, expect I'll be bugging you guys soon enough.
Thanks
Rory
Lacombe, LA - just across the lake from New Orleans
do not archive
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