Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:13 AM - Tachometers (John anderson)
2. 07:49 AM - Re: Re:JABIRU LOVERS FORUM (Rick)
3. 08:27 AM - Auto engine crankshaft bearings (Don Mountain)
4. 08:36 AM - Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings (Larry)
5. 08:55 AM - Re: Tachometers (Randy Stout)
6. 09:19 AM - Re: Sharpies - Ink Flow (Randy L. Thwing)
7. 10:38 AM - Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings (Phil Maxson)
8. 12:07 PM - Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings (Don Mountain)
9. 12:28 PM - Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings (Don Mountain)
10. 01:29 PM - Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings (Crvsecretary@aol.com)
11. 03:01 PM - Auto conversiona (Bob Unternaehrer)
12. 03:49 PM - Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings (Larry McFarland)
13. 06:47 PM - sharpie (mikeandlaurie3@netzero.net)
14. 07:02 PM - Re: Tachometers (John anderson)
15. 08:21 PM - Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings (Larry)
16. 09:17 PM - Re: Prop pitch and static RPM (Gary Gower)
17. 11:00 PM - Re: Prop pitch and static RPM (NYTerminat@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
Hi,
What tachometers are you 0235 guys using? Just finishing installing one on my
601HD. Prefer not to use the mechanical tachs. Is there a tach generator that
will fit the tach drive on my engine? Maybe a sensor placed on the ring gear drive?
Thanks,
John
Do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re:JABIRU LOVERS FORUM |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick" <zodie@adelphia.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "N5SL" <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re:JABIRU LOVERS FORUM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
>
> Geez guys, get a room.
;-)
A room?? To HIDE in?
No need for a room, the Jabiru inspires PDA
(PUBLIC Display of Affection. <grin>
Rick Pitcher
601HD w/Jab3300... and lovin' it :-)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Auto engine crankshaft bearings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
I am in the process of selecting an engine for my 601 XL, and have considered
some of the auto engine conversions. What concerns me the most about the auto
engine conversions is the direct drive of propellers off the crankshaft on
some of them. Auto engines were not designed to have that sort of loading
on the end of the crankshaft, pulling it out of the end of the engine by the
propeller force. Nor were they designed to have that sort of weight possibly
off balance adding additional vibrations to the crank and supporting bearings
like a designed for aircraft engine. How do these engine conversions beef
up these bearings or use a different bearing design to support these loads?
It seems the belt drive systems could be designed to handle the propeller loads
better, but then you have the belt to contend with?
Don
601XL, tail done, working on wings
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
The Subaru 2.2 and 2.5 will handle direct drive very nicely. They have a
very beefy main bearing set up. There are lots of them running and I know
of none that have failed due to the main bearings. Plus, I just happen to
have a direct drive setup for either for sale, real cheap. Larry,
www.skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Auto engine crankshaft bearings
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> I am in the process of selecting an engine for my 601 XL, and have
> considered some of the auto engine conversions. What concerns me the
> most about the auto engine conversions is the direct drive of propellers
> off the crankshaft on some of them. Auto engines were not designed to
> have that sort of loading on the end of the crankshaft, pulling it out of
> the end of the engine by the propeller force. Nor were they designed to
> have that sort of weight possibly off balance adding additional
> vibrations to the crank and supporting bearings like a designed for
> aircraft engine. How do these engine conversions beef up these bearings
> or use a different bearing design to support these loads? It seems the
> belt drive systems could be designed to handle the propeller loads
> better, but then you have the belt to contend with?
>
> Don
> 601XL, tail done, working on wings
>
>
> --
> 12/12/2005
>
>
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <n282rs@earthlink.net>
John
Check out this one that William Wynne is using on his 601.
http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar1005.html It's about 2/3 down the page.
Look for the picture with the flywheel on it and read the comments below.
Randy Stout
n282rs"at"earthlink.net
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
> [Original Message]
> From: John anderson <ande437@bellsouth.net>
> To: <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
> Date: 12/18/2005 9:12:51 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Tachometers
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John anderson"
<ande437@bellsouth.net>
>
> Hi,
> What tachometers are you 0235 guys using? Just finishing installing one
on my 601HD. Prefer not to use the mechanical tachs. Is there a tach
generator that will fit the tach drive on my engine? Maybe a sensor placed
on the ring gear drive?
> Thanks,
> John
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Sharpies - Ink Flow |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
That is a technical question that is critical for success. I neglected to
specify complete instructions. I had to go back to my original research
notes and this is what I found: Since I am building a Canadian designed
plane, I now drink Canadian Whiskey almost exclusively. Whenever a question
regarding rotation of any sort arises, I defer to the Canadian way. I went
to my recent holiday gift bottle of Crown Royal and it turns out to gain
access, the cap must be rotated counter-clockwise, therefore setting the
standard for aircraft rotation questions. I now rotate counter-clockwise in
all A/C building operations. I have resharpened all my drills for left hand
operation, they seem to burn rather than cut, but the standard must be met.
Thanks for the RAZZ, aviation should be fun. I try to give useful, well
thought out advice, and this is the kind of response I get. An example of a
reasonable response was the one I received from a builder in the former
Soviet Block country East of Germany. His complaint was that my method took
to much help, i.e. one builder to hold the Sharpie pen properly, and four
helpers to rotate the 4 x 12 aluminum sheet 720 degrees beneath it to
complete the operation.
Best regards and pre-emptive apologies,
Randy
Do not archive.
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sharpies - Ink Flow
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>
> This Question may be just because "I AM CANADIAN" But Randy do I rotate
> it clockwise or counter clockwise? I want to be sure I get my whole two
> revolutions in the correct direction.
>
> Cdngoose
> Do not archive Most Canadians are smarter then I.
> ;-)
> Sorry couldn't resist today
>
> and rotate the pen barrel 720 degrees (that's two revolutions
> for you Canadians)
>
>
> but free advice is never in short supply.
>
> Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
Message 7
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| Subject: | Auto engine crankshaft bearings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
They Corvair has been running on many different installations and
cofigurations for thousands of hours. Much research has been done on them
in airplanes since the 1960s. For whatever reason, bearings don't seem to
be a problem. I'm banking on proven results, rather than someone's
congecture about how big a bearing should be.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
>From: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Auto engine crankshaft bearings
>
> I am in the process of selecting an engine for my 601 XL, and have
>considered some of the auto engine conversions. What concerns me the most
>about the auto engine conversions is the direct drive of propellers off
>the crankshaft on some of them. Auto engines were not designed to have
>that sort of loading on the end of the crankshaft, pulling it out of the
>end of the engine by the propeller force.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Larry, this sounds kind of fishy. You first tell me that Subaru is great, without
giving me TBO for the drive unit or the engine bearings, and then offer
one for sale cheap. Sounds like either you bought something that didn't work,
or wasn't any good after looking at it first hand. What modifications are
done to the typical Subaru engine bearings to keep the crank from pulling out
the front of the engine? Usually there is just a bronze thrust washer there,
and it wouldn't take much wear to leave too much clearance from for-aft slide
of the crank. Are they tapered roller bearings or something else? And wouldn't
a direct drive on a Subaru force it to run too slow for efficiency and
reduced horsepower?
Don
601 XL, tail done, working on wings
Larry <lrm01@centurytel.net> wrote:
>The Subaru 2.2 and 2.5 will handle
>direct drive very nicely. They have
>a very beefy main bearing set up.
>There are lots of them running and
>I know of none that have failed due
>to the main bearings. Plus, I just
>happen to have a direct drive setup
>for either for sale, real cheap. Larry,
Message 9
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| Subject: | Auto engine crankshaft bearings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
After one of these engines ran for thousands of hours, what sort of wear and clearance
were measured. How many thousands of hours can one of these run before
it reaches a practical wear limit. Its pretty common for Lycoming engines
to reach their 2000 hour TBO and still keep flying for a long time. If you
are "banking on proven results", then you must have viewed the wear and run
logs for test runs of the engine? Where might I find these tests to view for
myself? And I am assuming that engine bearings are not selected based on "congecture"
but designed for the application by a mechanical engineer? Picking
an auto engine, mounting it in an airplane with a custom prop attachment on
a stock bearing crankshaft without modifications would be selection by "congecture".
Although it could be tested in a series of load tests to predict
failure modes and practical lifetime limits. I assume this information is available
somewhere?
Don
601 XL, tail done, working on wings
Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
>They Corvair has been running on
>many different installations and
>cofigurations for thousands of hours.
>Much research has been done on
>them in airplanes since the 1960s.
>For whatever reason, bearings don't
>seem to be a problem. I'm banking
>on proven results, rather than
>someone's congecture about how
>big a bearing should be.
>
>Phil Maxson
>601XL/Corvair
>Northwest New Jersey
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com
Don:
I like the direction of your questions, but I have to ask you one more....
....why don't the results speak for themselves? Take the Corvair, for
instance. What is the profit motive for anyone to take one of these engines down
to measure bearing wear after an undetermined amount of time? The only
person who would have a need to gather this data is William Wynne, and if HE has
not seen the need, does the need exist?
Remembr, there are a lot of auto engines that exist, but only a few
successfully transition into aero conversion applications. That's why they call
this
branch of aviation 'experimental'.
One more thing, and I'm not throwing stones, but most of the large
displacement turbocharged Lycomings NEVER see TBO. This data IS available, but,
does
it really matter? If you own one, you KNOW 2000 hours is between highly
unlikely and fantasy. Does this stop people from flying them? No.
Thanks for the lively thread.
Regards,
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
601xl N458XL (reserved)
do not archive
In a message dated 12/18/2005 3:30:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mountain4don@yahoo.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
After one of these engines ran for thousands of hours, what sort of wear
and clearance were measured. How many thousands of hours can one of these run
before it reaches a practical wear limit. Its pretty common for Lycoming
engines to reach their 2000 hour TBO and still keep flying for a long time.
If you are "banking on proven results", then you must have viewed the wear
and run logs for test runs of the engine? Where might I find these tests
to view for myself? And I am assuming that engine bearings are not selected
based on "congecture" but designed for the application by a mechanical
engineer? Picking an auto engine, mounting it in an airplane with a custom prop
attachment on a stock bearing crankshaft without modifications would be
selection by "congecture". Although it could be tested in a series of load
tests to predict failure modes and practical lifetime limits. I assume this
information is available somewhere?
Don
601 XL, tail done, working on wings
Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
>They Corvair has been running on
>many different installations and
>cofigurations for thousands of hours.
>Much research has been done on
>them in airplanes since the 1960s.
>For whatever reason, bearings don't
>seem to be a problem. I'm banking
>on proven results, rather than
>someone's congecture about how
>big a bearing should be.
>
>Phil Maxson
>601XL/Corvair
>Northwest New Jersey
Message 11
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| Subject: | Auto conversiona |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Along the same lines ask about the main bearings for the auto conversions. Has
anybody seen a crank on the Jabiru 3300. I was just wondering about the width
and diameter of the front main next to the propeller and If that main is the
thrust bearing.??
Blue Skies
Bob Unternaehrer
shilocom@mcmsys.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Don,
The information you're asking for is in Alternative Engines, Volumes I &
II. Many of the automotive conversions including the Corvair and Subaru
are described
in rather fine detail. The issues of bearing loading, type and size is
touched upon with enough finesse to satisfy your concerns. The volumes
are $45. each and are a bargain for the individual that needs to know.
These volumes also contain a lot of information on ignition,
carburation, mounting, cooling, etc. If you're buying a firewall
forward package or using guidance from one of the established sources,
you'd be mostly wasting time on this kind of detail. If you're doing
better engineering than that, you need to go to SKF or one of the
bearing houses that publish more specific tables for that kind of use.
Bearing products are only selected by the using manufacturer, not the
other way around.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Don Mountain wrote:
> Where might I find these tests to view for myself? And I am assuming that engine
bearings are not selected based on "congecture" but designed for the application
by a mechanical engineer? Picking an auto engine, mounting it in an
airplane with a custom prop attachment on a stock bearing crankshaft without
modifications would be selection by "congecture". Although it could be tested
in a series of load tests to predict failure modes and practical lifetime
limits. I assume this information is available somewhere?
>
> Don
> 601 XL, tail done, working on wings
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "mikeandlaurie3@netzero.net" <mikeandlaurie3@netzero.net>
If the ink stops flowing on "an otherwise good sharpie" then doesn't it become
an otherwise bad sharpie and worthy of disposal???????
course, i admit, i do "borrow" them from work on occasion.
Mike/ 601XL/ N445ML/WW corvair conversion
If the ink stops flowing on "an otherwise good sharpie" then doesn't it become
an otherwise bad sharpie and worthy of disposal???????
course, i admit, i do "borrow" them from work on occasion.
Mike/ 601XL/ N445ML/WW corvair conversion
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
Hi Randy,
Thanks. I think WW's set up will work fine. Will call for part #'s
tomorrow. Should be flying first week in Jan.
Good luck,
John
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Stout" <n282rs@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tachometers
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <n282rs@earthlink.net>
>
> John
> Check out this one that William Wynne is using on his 601.
> http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar1005.html It's about 2/3 down the page.
> Look for the picture with the flywheel on it and read the comments below.
>
> Randy Stout
> n282rs"at"earthlink.net
> www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: John anderson <ande437@bellsouth.net>
> > To: <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
> > Date: 12/18/2005 9:12:51 AM
> > Subject: Zenith-List: Tachometers
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John anderson"
> <ande437@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > Hi,
> > What tachometers are you 0235 guys using? Just finishing installing one
> on my 601HD. Prefer not to use the mechanical tachs. Is there a tach
> generator that will fit the tach drive on my engine? Maybe a sensor placed
> on the ring gear drive?
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Auto engine crankshaft bearings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
The Subaru was too heavy for my 701. If it wasn't for the weight, I sure
would be using it. It was 259 lbs wet, I thought I might have trouble
landing on my 600' strip. I have had two Subaru's on gyros and in my
opinion they are the best auto conversion you can get. I now have no use
for the direct drive and would like to move it, not cheap, just not
expensive. You are insinuating there is something wrong or fishy with it,
not true, it's like new in great shape and works fine for what it was
designed to do. You should chose you words a little more carefully. Check
out Don Parham's site, http://www.geocities.com/rfisubaru/rfi.html, and
learn a little more about them. To the best of my knowledge there are no
mods on Subs to use direct drive. You would have to ask Don Parham for
specs. I just know there are lot of them out there and Don says it's a non
problem and he is a real Subaru guru. As far as hp is concerned my Subaru
2.5 put out 110 hp at 3200 rpm using a three blade 64" hd warp drive prop.
And at that rpm the Subaru would last a very long time, probably 3 or 4k hrs
to tbo. It is not unusual to see a Subaru car with 250,000+ miles on it.
Try getting equivalent time out of a $25k+ Lycoming, no way.
That's all I have to say about it. Thanks for your concern.
Larry, www.airhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Auto engine crankshaft bearings
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> Larry, this sounds kind of fishy. You first tell me that Subaru is
> great, without giving me TBO for the drive unit or the engine bearings,
> and then offer one for sale cheap. Sounds like either you bought
> something that didn't work, or wasn't any good after looking at it first
> hand. What modifications are done to the typical Subaru engine bearings
> to keep the crank from pulling out the front of the engine? Usually
> there is just a bronze thrust washer there, and it wouldn't take much
> wear to leave too much clearance from for-aft slide of the crank. Are
> they tapered roller bearings or something else? And wouldn't a direct
> drive on a Subaru force it to run too slow for efficiency and reduced
> horsepower?
>
> Don
> 601 XL, tail done, working on wings
>
> Larry <lrm01@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> >The Subaru 2.2 and 2.5 will handle
> >direct drive very nicely. They have
> >a very beefy main bearing set up.
> >There are lots of them running and
> >I know of none that have failed due
> >to the main bearings. Plus, I just
> >happen to have a direct drive setup
> >for either for sale, real cheap. Larry,
>
>
> --
> 12/12/2005
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Prop pitch and static RPM |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Bob,
Is important to set the engine (any engine) to give "safe" full power RPM's
with the handle all the way in... This way when ever you need full power to
take off or to abort a landing, just "let it go" without thinking about over
reving the engine... Is more important to pay atention these few seconds or
couple of minutes to perform a good manover than to watch the rpms to save the
engine. In an emergency landing abort having extra things to care off, can give
as you say in USA: an hands full.
Just my point of view.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
In a message dated 12/17/2005 12:46:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net writes:
It can't hurt to set your prop to limit your total power so that you
can't quite reach 100% power output. You can play with the prop
setting after you have established the basic flying characteristics
of your new plane.
Of course, some other people might suggest it is foolish to ever
attempt a takeoff with less than full power. Go figure . ..
Paul
XL wings
Paul are you saying that the 5800 is 100% and that the 5452 static RPM is
correct? To limit full power you can easily not push the throttle all the way.
I
would just assume set the pitch to what it is supposed to be the first time.
Thanks
Bob Spudis
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Prop pitch and static RPM |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Gary,
I don't seem to be getting an answer to the question of what is the right
setting. If I am thinking correctly the max permitted RPM of the Rotax 912S is
5800 at 5 minutes max and the Woodcomp manual says to set the pitch so that you
get 6% less than max RPM static that makes the correct static RPM 5452. Is
this correct? Would that setting relate to max 5800 RPM in the air?
Thanks for your comments
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 12/19/2005 12:18:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ggower_99@yahoo.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Bob,
Is important to set the engine (any engine) to give "safe" full power
RPM's with the handle all the way in... This way when ever you need full power
to take off or to abort a landing, just "let it go" without thinking about
over reving the engine... Is more important to pay atention these few seconds
or couple of minutes to perform a good manover than to watch the rpms to save
the engine. In an emergency landing abort having extra things to care off, can
give as you say in USA: an hands full.
Just my point of view.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
In a message dated 12/17/2005 12:46:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net writes:
It can't hurt to set your prop to limit your total power so that you
can't quite reach 100% power output. You can play with the prop
setting after you have established the basic flying characteristics
of your new plane.
Of course, some other people might suggest it is foolish to ever
attempt a takeoff with less than full power. Go figure . ..
Paul
XL wings
Paul are you saying that the 5800 is 100% and that the 5452 static RPM is
correct? To limit full power you can easily not push the throttle all the
way. I
would just assume set the pitch to what it is supposed to be the first time.
Thanks
Bob Spudis
do not archive
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