Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:35 AM - Re: Battery location (Clive Richards)
2. 04:55 AM - Re: Why all the attacks?? (Zodie Rocket)
3. 04:57 AM - Re: Battery location (Bob Unternaehrer)
4. 06:25 AM - Re: Battery location (Gig Giacona)
5. 06:35 AM - Re: Why all the attacks?? (Weston, Jim)
6. 06:44 AM - Re: Why all the attacks?? (Larry)
7. 06:44 AM - Re: Battery location (John anderson)
8. 06:48 AM - Re: Battery location (Weston, Jim)
9. 06:57 AM - Tarabocchia's flaps (Paul Hartl)
10. 08:22 AM - please keep corvair discussion (Robin Bellach)
11. 08:59 AM - Re: Tarabocchia's flaps (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: Tarabocchia's flaps ()
13. 09:54 AM - Re: please keep corvair discussion (Carlos Sa)
14. 10:13 AM - Re: Wing Issue (Lance Gingell)
15. 10:18 AM - Re: please keep corvair discussion (Craig Payne)
16. 10:53 AM - Re: please keep corvair discussion (James Ferris)
17. 12:28 PM - 601 XL engine choices (Clyde Barcus)
18. 02:42 PM - Re: Wing Issues (george may)
19. 02:55 PM - Re: Wing Issues (Michael Valentine)
20. 05:37 PM - Re: please keep corvair discussion (bill naumuk)
21. 05:44 PM - T'was The Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes Style (Jim Pellien)
22. 05:50 PM - Re: please keep corvair discussion (Randy Stout)
23. 06:36 PM - Re: Tarabocchia's flaps (Gary Gower)
24. 06:51 PM - Re: please keep corvair discussion... (Gary Gower)
25. 07:02 PM - Re: please keep corvair discussion (Gary Gower)
26. 07:03 PM - Re: please keep corvair discussion (ron dewees)
27. 07:21 PM - Original question (Brandon Tucker)
28. 08:05 PM - Re: Original Question (Brandon Tucker)
29. 08:37 PM - Grandson's First Flight (JAPhillipsGA@AOL.COM)
30. 09:16 PM - Re: Grandson's First Flight (Clyde Barcus)
31. 09:36 PM - Re: T'was The Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes Style (Jean-Paul Roy)
32. 11:55 PM - Re: Tarabocchia's flaps (xl)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Battery location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clive Richards" <stephen@crichards.flyer.co.uk>
Hi John
I have just done the calculations for Ray Lasniers 601HD with
a continental 0200 fitted I assume the engine weight will be similar to
yours or slightly lighter He has a 16 US Gal header tank so from
calculations if the measurements are correct needs the battery 12 lbs in
the extreem rear of the fusalage. with a 154 lbs pilot & full header tank we
are on the forward limit 10.433 inches 265mm & with a empty header tank 189
lbs pilot & 189 lbs passenger 6 lbs bagage the aft is 15.02 inches. (343.069
mm)
The arm I have is Nose Wheel - 20.4724 inch (-520 mm) Main 27.008 (686 mm)
empty weight 720 lbs arm 9.137 inches
(232.075)
Have you all got similar arms ?
I have a Xl spread sheet in imperial, metric or ZAC lbs/mm if anyone would
like a copy, also works in lotus 123 as this is the program I have.
please note I will be changing my email address to
s.c.richards@homecall.co.uk as I have gone onto broardband
current address may stay working.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Battery location
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John anderson"
<ande437@bellsouth.net>
>
> Hi,
> I have a battery placement question. I am about finished with an 0235
installation in a 601HD. I believe ZAC suggests mounting it in the tail. I
did W/B with it sitting on the horizontal stabilizer, the approximate
position it would be in the tail. Aft CG 17at gross. Moved battery behind
seat to original position. Aft CG 13.72. Forward CG13.3 and 11.64. Both
positions are in the range of the HD's CG. I plan to add HDS wings which I
don't think will affect the CG very much. I am leaning toward the forward
mounting. What are your thoughts?
> John
> Alabama
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Why all the attacks?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Chris, this is a very worthwhile place to visit. On this list you will
find an amazing amount of experience and talented builders willing to
spend the time to answer your questions even after they have long
finished there plane and are now flying. But due to the list size,
different cultural backgrounds there is bound to be flair up this I
believe is unavoidable with a group this size. A word taken out of
context, a thought incorrectly written are all opportunities to offend
the values of another. IT is best that when these take place to just
spend more time on the delete button and never hit the reply as it is
just one mans opinion and should be left to die instead of lifted in the
flames. I really enjoy this list personally and over the years have
grown from the friendships I have made as well as the learning I have
achieved. For the most part the list excels at what it is here for and
that is simply for all builders to help each other!
Merry Christmas to all of you!
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
sinfield
Subject: Zenith-List: Why all the attacks??
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris sinfield
<chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
People, People, People..
Why all this attacking each other.. I want to build a zenith XL and
join a group of people who have similar minded ideas to help me complete
and fly this aircraft. I have been looking at a few different types and
settled on the XL. But I am not sure that this is an email list that I
want to be a part of? people should be free to express their views on
engines and flying ect ect, as they are just that.. their views ,
without somone jumping down their throat.. Lets help each other out and
remeber the goal of this list is to help people complete and fly Zenith
Aircraft through out the world..
Please convince me that I should stay, to me even Off topic stuff is
OK but there is just no need to attack each other, I can go to the sand
pit for that..
Chris..
601XL
Down Under..
--
12/21/2005
--
12/21/2005
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Battery location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Clive. Just one heads up.. I know a lot of "experimental planes" move the
Battery to the tail for CG purposes. BUT on certified airplanes this is
generally not permitted because of inability to recover from spins, either
intentional or accidental. With the weight in the tail the gyroscopic
forces of concentrated loads to the rear can prevent recovery. It is
generally much better to move the heavy forward components back, but this
may not be an option at this point. Also someone in the future may not
qualify as the STandard 170 lb. pilot and/or passenger and could easily
exceed the forward CG, even though it should be checked on every flight, in
practice it's not done much on two place side by side airplanes. PS I have
12 lbs of lead in the tail of one of my certified airplanes,,,but I don't
like it and am very cautious of stalls and spins with that airplane. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clive Richards" <stephen@crichards.flyer.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Battery location
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clive Richards"
<stephen@crichards.flyer.co.uk>
>
> Hi John
> I have just done the calculations for Ray Lasniers 601HD
with
> a continental 0200 fitted I assume the engine weight will be similar to
> yours or slightly lighter He has a 16 US Gal header tank so from
> calculations if the measurements are correct needs the battery 12 lbs in
> the extreem rear of the fusalage. with a 154 lbs pilot & full header tank
we
> are on the forward limit 10.433 inches 265mm & with a empty header tank
189
> lbs pilot & 189 lbs passenger 6 lbs bagage the aft is 15.02 inches.
(343.069
> mm)
> The arm I have is Nose Wheel - 20.4724 inch (-520 mm) Main 27.008 (686 mm)
> empty weight 720 lbs arm 9.137 inches
> (232.075)
>
> Have you all got similar arms ?
>
> I have a Xl spread sheet in imperial, metric or ZAC lbs/mm if anyone would
> like a copy, also works in lotus 123 as this is the program I have.
> please note I will be changing my email address to
> s.c.richards@homecall.co.uk as I have gone onto broardband
> current address may stay working.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Battery location
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John anderson"
> <ande437@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have a battery placement question. I am about finished with an 0235
> installation in a 601HD. I believe ZAC suggests mounting it in the tail. I
> did W/B with it sitting on the horizontal stabilizer, the approximate
> position it would be in the tail. Aft CG 17at gross. Moved battery behind
> seat to original position. Aft CG 13.72. Forward CG13.3 and 11.64. Both
> positions are in the range of the HD's CG. I plan to add HDS wings which I
> don't think will affect the CG very much. I am leaning toward the forward
> mounting. What are your thoughts?
> > John
> > Alabama
> > Do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Battery location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
Here's my 2 cents on the battery location/CG issue. You need to make sure
that you can handle worse case over a long x-country, ie. Fuel at minumum,
and fully loaded pax and cargo. Then put the battery where you'll still be
within the rear CG limit. Double check and make sure that same battery
position will be OK when the tanks are full and also with just the pilot and
no cargo.
I'll just be curious to see if when completed the following stays within the
CG.
Pilot 175#
CO-P 130#
L Cargo 40#
R Cargo 40#
Aft Cargo 40#
Fuel 145#
Aircraft 750#
TOTAL 1320#
Gig G
Message 5
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| Subject: | Why all the attacks?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Thanks Mark.
As an early builder (been flying my HDS since 1998), sometimes
contributor, and always a reader, your comments are well stated.
Thanks Again.
Chris...By all means, please join in. Over all you'll enjoy it very
much and find it very beneficial.
Jim Weston
CH601HDS, Stratus
Concord, Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zodie
Rocket
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Why all the attacks??
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Chris, this is a very worthwhile place to visit. On this list you will
find an amazing amount of experience and talented builders willing to
spend the time to answer your questions even after they have long
finished there plane and are now flying. But due to the list size,
different cultural backgrounds there is bound to be flair up this I
believe is unavoidable with a group this size. A word taken out of
context, a thought incorrectly written are all opportunities to offend
the values of another. IT is best that when these take place to just
spend more time on the delete button and never hit the reply as it is
just one mans opinion and should be left to die instead of lifted in the
flames. I really enjoy this list personally and over the years have
grown from the friendships I have made as well as the learning I have
achieved. For the most part the list excels at what it is here for and
that is simply for all builders to help each other!
Merry Christmas to all of you!
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
sinfield
Subject: Zenith-List: Why all the attacks??
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris sinfield
<chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
People, People, People..
Why all this attacking each other.. I want to build a zenith XL and
join a group of people who have similar minded ideas to help me complete
and fly this aircraft. I have been looking at a few different types and
settled on the XL. But I am not sure that this is an email list that I
want to be a part of? people should be free to express their views on
engines and flying ect ect, as they are just that.. their views ,
without somone jumping down their throat.. Lets help each other out and
remeber the goal of this list is to help people complete and fly Zenith
Aircraft through out the world..
Please convince me that I should stay, to me even Off topic stuff is
OK but there is just no need to attack each other, I can go to the sand
pit for that..
Chris..
601XL
Down Under..
--
12/21/2005
--
12/21/2005
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Why all the attacks?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
Do Not Archive
Guess I must have missed out on what-ever was going on. Probably a good
thing. I used to be bad about a quick response when someone said something
I didn't like. These unfortunate flaming pop up once in a while, but over
all this is a pretty civil group. For those who indulge in flaming, the
rest of us should not get upset and respond, just let it go. If the flamer
doesn't get a rise out of us they go away. I call the people who flame,
keyboard cowards. They would never talk to your face the way some of them
do with a keyboard. To those who can't stand a little bit of flaming and
let it slide, then the old saying of "If you can't stand the heat in the
kitchen, get out" needs to apply. Those who flame will quite it if we don't
feed their fire.
That's all I have to say about that!
Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Why all the attacks??
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>
> Chris, this is a very worthwhile place to visit. On this list you will
> find an amazing amount of experience and talented builders willing to
> spend the time to answer your questions even after they have long
> finished there plane and are now flying. But due to the list size,
> different cultural backgrounds there is bound to be flair up this I
> believe is unavoidable with a group this size. A word taken out of
> context, a thought incorrectly written are all opportunities to offend
> the values of another. IT is best that when these take place to just
> spend more time on the delete button and never hit the reply as it is
> just one mans opinion and should be left to die instead of lifted in the
> flames. I really enjoy this list personally and over the years have
> grown from the friendships I have made as well as the learning I have
> achieved. For the most part the list excels at what it is here for and
> that is simply for all builders to help each other!
>
> Merry Christmas to all of you!
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> president@can-zacaviation.com
> www.can-zacaviation.com
> do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
> sinfield
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Why all the attacks??
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris sinfield
> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
>
> People, People, People..
> Why all this attacking each other.. I want to build a zenith XL and
> join a group of people who have similar minded ideas to help me complete
> and fly this aircraft. I have been looking at a few different types and
> settled on the XL. But I am not sure that this is an email list that I
> want to be a part of? people should be free to express their views on
> engines and flying ect ect, as they are just that.. their views ,
> without somone jumping down their throat.. Lets help each other out and
> remeber the goal of this list is to help people complete and fly Zenith
> Aircraft through out the world..
>
> Please convince me that I should stay, to me even Off topic stuff is
> OK but there is just no need to attack each other, I can go to the sand
> pit for that..
> Chris..
> 601XL
> Down Under..
>
>
> --
> 12/21/2005
>
>
> --
> 12/21/2005
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Battery location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
Hi Clive,
Empty weight on my plane is 699. I also have the 16 gallon header tank.
Ln=19.25 and Lm=26.75. Forward CG is11.64 and aft CG is 16.1 with 20 pound
battery behind passenger seat. Empty CG is 7.73. Pilot (me)weight is 220
which encourages the forward location of the battery. Must be considerable
difference in the weight of the 0200 and 0235. I have light weight starter
and alternator.
Merry Christmas,
John
Do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Battery location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
FWIW, don't be afraid of the forward (nose heavy side) CG limit. I've
been flying my HDS at the very forward limit when full of fuel (it moves
back as some of the fuel burns off) for 8 years. It makes it a more
stable aircraft. Yes, the cruise speed is slowed a bit, but not enough
in the speed ranges that these aircraft operate to make much difference.
I've tested with a further aft CG by adding 50 lbs of weight to a
suitcase and strapping it into the baggage compartment. The plane fly's
maybe 3 to 4 mph faster. There have also been comments made about
having enough elevator authority with the forward CG. I don't know if
the XL is different, with it's different airfoil, but there has always
been more than enough elevator, whether landing, slow flighting, doing
stalls, lazy eights, or chandelles. Over all Chris has designed a very
nice airplane, with no crazy/dangerous characteristics when built
correctly and balanced correctly.
Have fun building and flying,
Jim Weston
Concord, Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clive
Richards
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Battery location
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clive Richards"
--> <stephen@crichards.flyer.co.uk>
Hi John
I have just done the calculations for Ray Lasniers 601HD
with a continental 0200 fitted I assume the engine weight will be
similar to yours or slightly lighter He has a 16 US Gal header tank so
from calculations if the measurements are correct needs the battery 12
lbs in the extreem rear of the fusalage. with a 154 lbs pilot & full
header tank we are on the forward limit 10.433 inches 265mm & with a
empty header tank 189 lbs pilot & 189 lbs passenger 6 lbs bagage the aft
is 15.02 inches. (343.069
mm)
The arm I have is Nose Wheel - 20.4724 inch (-520 mm) Main 27.008 (686
mm) empty weight 720 lbs arm 9.137 inches
(232.075)
Have you all got similar arms ?
I have a Xl spread sheet in imperial, metric or ZAC lbs/mm if anyone
would like a copy, also works in lotus 123 as this is the program I
have.
please note I will be changing my email address to
s.c.richards@homecall.co.uk as I have gone onto broardband current
address may stay working.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Battery location
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John anderson"
<ande437@bellsouth.net>
>
> Hi,
> I have a battery placement question. I am about finished with an
0235
installation in a 601HD. I believe ZAC suggests mounting it in the tail.
I
did W/B with it sitting on the horizontal stabilizer, the approximate
position it would be in the tail. Aft CG 17at gross. Moved battery
behind
seat to original position. Aft CG 13.72. Forward CG13.3 and 11.64. Both
positions are in the range of the HD's CG. I plan to add HDS wings which
I
don't think will affect the CG very much. I am leaning toward the
forward
mounting. What are your thoughts?
> John
> Alabama
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Tarabocchia's flaps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Hartl" <paulhartl@cox.net>
Hi Phill,
I thought I was missing out with no flaps when they
came out with the XL - after I had already purchased
my HDS kit. But now that I'm flying my HDS, I see no
need whatsoever for flaps. In fact, my friend Joe
Edwards out in Seattle doesn't use his on his XL
much at all (right, Joe?).
The one thing that really does help make your landings
as short as possible is to use one of the many AOA
sensing devices out there. An AOA meter is built into
the Dynon EFIS that I use (the sensor is built into their
pitot tube), and once I calibrated and started using it,
my landings became slower and shorter - and with confidence.
It's what carrier pilots use to make their landings REAL short!
(Of course, they have flaps, too!)
Merry Christmas, to all, and thanks for a great year of advice,
help, encouragement, and general fat-chewing on this list!
Paul Hartl, N414PZ, 601HDS/Jabiru 3300A, 37 hours, 47 landings
Flight Simulator 2002/4 Zodiac Website: www.members.cox.net/paulhartl
Sun Valley, Idaho 83340 208-788-9147
Message 10
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| Subject: | please keep corvair discussion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Hanley" <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: please move the corvair discution to another list.
> All the discussion of the Corvair engines is great but
> it belongs on another list. It is off topic here.
> Brett
Brett,
I submit that the recent Corvair discussion, since it pertained to the
suitability of Corvair
conversions for Zenith aircraft is quite relevant to the list and
especially appropriate and welcome to those who are making an engine choice,
and that such posts are just as germane as any of the posts that you have
made concerning engine choices.
Nomex on. Do not archive.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tarabocchia's flaps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>now that I'm flying my HDS, I see no
>need whatsoever for flaps
Hi Paul,
I have not yet flown my Zodiac (due to serious lack of parts) but I
might be able to address the flaps question from experience with other planes.
I agree with you about not needing flaps to reduce landing runway
requirements. They do help with that, but these planes have very
short requirements to start with.
Flaps are very useful to allow for steep approaches. This can be to
get over an obstacle and then land on a short runway or it can be
just to adjust for a high approach. This same approach angle can
usually be accomplished with a forward slip and no flaps.
The one place where there is no way to replace flaps is on
takeoff. A small amount of flaps helps get the plane off the ground
and might help clear that obstacle at the end of the runway.
Have fun,
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Tarabocchia's flaps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
> >now that I'm flying my HDS, I see no
> >need whatsoever for flaps
Let's not forget that flaps improve over the nose visibility coming down the slope
on final. They also improve the directional (yaw) stability in slow flight.
Once on the ground, they reduce the steerability however so normally we are
taught to retract them quickly during roll-out.
Ed
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: please keep corvair discussion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
I second the motion.
Carlos
do not archive
Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by:
"Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Hanley"
Subject: Zenith-List: please move the corvair discution to another list.
> All the discussion of the Corvair engines is great but
> it belongs on another list. It is off topic here.
> Brett
Brett,
I submit that the recent Corvair discussion, since it pertained to the
suitability of Corvair
conversions for Zenith aircraft is quite relevant to the list and
especially appropriate and welcome to those who are making an engine choice,
and that such posts are just as germane as any of the posts that you have
made concerning engine choices.
Nomex on. Do not archive.
---------------------------------
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" <lgingell@matrix-logic.com>
Michael,
As I recall, my 4 inboard ribs have flanges facing outboard, plenty of
my pics here...:
http://lancegingell.com/planebuild/constructionlog.asp?categorywings
<http://lancegingell.com/planebuild/constructionlog.asp?PlanRef6-w-7&Se
archPlanRef>
I have the wing lockers too.
..lance
Zodiac XL/Jab 3300/Flying
Message 15
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| Subject: | please keep corvair discussion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
I don't disagree but you will get a much more informed response if you ask
your question on the Corvaircraft list.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: please keep corvair discussion
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
I second the motion.
Carlos
do not archive
Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted
by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Hanley"
Subject: Zenith-List: please move the corvair discution to another list.
> All the discussion of the Corvair engines is great but
> it belongs on another list. It is off topic here.
> Brett
Brett,
I submit that the recent Corvair discussion, since it pertained to the
suitability of Corvair
conversions for Zenith aircraft is quite relevant to the list and
especially appropriate and welcome to those who are making an engine choice,
and that such posts are just as germane as any of the posts that you have
made concerning engine choices.
Nomex on. Do not archive.
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: please keep corvair discussion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris <mijniljj@yahoo.com>
It's the best engine for the 601 unless you just have
money you want to burn.
Jim
--- Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach"
> <601zv@ritternet.com>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brett Hanley" <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: please move the corvair
> discution to another list.
> > All the discussion of the Corvair engines is
> great but
> > it belongs on another list. It is off topic
> here.
> > Brett
>
> Brett,
> I submit that the recent Corvair discussion, since
> it pertained to the
> suitability of Corvair
> conversions for Zenith aircraft is quite relevant
> to the list and
> especially appropriate and welcome to those who are
> making an engine choice,
> and that such posts are just as germane as any of
> the posts that you have
> made concerning engine choices.
> Nomex on. Do not archive.
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
Message 17
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| Subject: | 601 XL engine choices |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" <barcusc@comcast.net>
I believe discussion on engine choices are appropriate for the zenith list, I read
everything posted on the subject while I was making up my mind, clearly, deciding
on engine choice is a big deal. I considered Lycoming 0-235, Continental
0-200 and Jabiru before I chose Corvair. Even though I chose Corvair I would
not say it is better than any other choice, I believe all of them will provide
years of service properly rebuilt and serviced. In my case, I almost bought
a low time, certified Continental for $11,000 until I found out it sat for years
without being pickled. Time was a little over 200 SMOH, I found out just before
I sent the check that calendar time since overhaul was as important as the
TBO, that ticked me off !!! The engine would have to be taken apart and who
knows what problems I could have faced. Since I am not an A & P, able to make
an informed decision on aircraft engines, I decided to build a better than new
Corvair for a lot less. What is best for you depends on your comfort zone and,
of course, your wallet.
Merry Christmas
Clyde Barcus
601XL
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
Michael--
As Chris indicated , it really doesn't matter which way the L's face. I
installed mine so that they were not in the baggage compartment. And, yes
one of the ribs has the lightening hole flanges facing into the baggage
compartment.
Poor design, but not much you can do about it unless you make your
own replacement. I also faced the L's on rib no. 1 facing outward toward
the wing so that they would not be in the way for wiring etc. when
the wing is assembled to the fuse.
George
>From: Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Wing Issues
>Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:05:48 -0500
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine
><mgvalentine@gmail.com>
>
>Happy Holidays listers -
>
>Two Wing Rear Rib questions:
>
>First: 6-W-00 shows Rear Rib #4 with the flanges pointing inboard
>(opposite the rest of the ribs) with the three L angle stiffeners.
>The drawing shows them all on the inside of the flanges (pointing
>inboard) and it shows the wing locker cross-piece attaching to (or
>near?) the third stiffener. 6-WLO-1 shows the cross piece attaching
>to the middle stiffener and you can't really tell which side the
>stiffeners are on. So the simple question is how do each of the three
>stiffeners go on RR#4?
>
>Second: 6-W-00 shows RR#5 as a left (for a right wing). This means
>the flanges are also pointing inboard - into the wing locker. That
>seems odd to me, though probably inconsequential. I spoke with Chris
>at the factory and he implied it really didn't matter - at some point
>it has been both ways as the drawings progressed. So, how did you do
>it? Do you have one side of the baggage locker with the flanges
>pointing away from the locker and one pointing into the locker? Are
>there any reasons that I may see later down the line that would
>influence me one way or the other?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Michael Valentine
>
>
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
Thanks George.
On 12/22/05, george may <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
>
> Michael--
> As Chris indicated , it really doesn't matter which way the L's face. I
> installed mine so that they were not in the baggage compartment. And, yes
> one of the ribs has the lightening hole flanges facing into the baggage
> compartment.
> Poor design, but not much you can do about it unless you make your
> own replacement. I also faced the L's on rib no. 1 facing outward toward
> the wing so that they would not be in the way for wiring etc. when
> the wing is assembled to the fuse.
>
> George
>
>
> >From: Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Zenith-List: Wing Issues
> >Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:05:48 -0500
> >
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine
> ><mgvalentine@gmail.com>
> >
> >Happy Holidays listers -
> >
> >Two Wing Rear Rib questions:
> >
> >First: 6-W-00 shows Rear Rib #4 with the flanges pointing inboard
> >(opposite the rest of the ribs) with the three L angle stiffeners.
> >The drawing shows them all on the inside of the flanges (pointing
> >inboard) and it shows the wing locker cross-piece attaching to (or
> >near?) the third stiffener. 6-WLO-1 shows the cross piece attaching
> >to the middle stiffener and you can't really tell which side the
> >stiffeners are on. So the simple question is how do each of the three
> >stiffeners go on RR#4?
> >
> >Second: 6-W-00 shows RR#5 as a left (for a right wing). This means
> >the flanges are also pointing inboard - into the wing locker. That
> >seems odd to me, though probably inconsequential. I spoke with Chris
> >at the factory and he implied it really didn't matter - at some point
> >it has been both ways as the drawings progressed. So, how did you do
> >it? Do you have one side of the baggage locker with the flanges
> >pointing away from the locker and one pointing into the locker? Are
> >there any reasons that I may see later down the line that would
> >influence me one way or the other?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Michael Valentine
> >
> >
>
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: please keep corvair discussion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Ferris" <mijniljj@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: please keep corvair discussion
People-
Talk about getting off track!! The original question (About 2 weeks
ago ) was "Can anyone provide some real performance numbers for a WW/HDS
combination?" Well, I'm one of the orphans with an HDS, and still would like
to hear an answer to the original question.
Nomex unnecessary. Focus is.
Bill
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | T'was The Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes Style |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
'Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the forum
not an EMAIL was posted, not even a note.
The stockings were hung by the laptop with care,
in hopes that Tom P. soon would be there.
The pilots were nestled all snug in their beds,
while visions of SLSA's danced in their heads.
The aircraft in their hangars, and I in my cap,
had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap.
When out on the tarmac there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my desk to see what was the matter.
Away to the window I flew like a flash,
tore open the shutter, and threw up the sash.
The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
gave the lustre of midday to the tie-downs below,
when, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
but a Light Sport Aircraft and eight big EAA 'rs.
With a little old pilot, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be Tom P.
More rapid than eagles, his coursers they came,
and he whistled and shouted and called them by name:
"Now Rutan! Now Melville!
Now, Fossett and Boyer!
On, Lawrence! On, Heintz!
On, Van G and Sawyer!
To the end of the runway!
To the tie-down area
Now Shut Down ! Shut Down!
Shut Down All Engines"
As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
when they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky
so up to the top of the FBO they flew,
with the sleigh full of flight toys, and Tom P. too.
And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
the prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
As I drew in my head and was turning around,
down the chimney Tom P. came with a bound.
He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
A bundle of new FAA rules he had flung on his back,
and he looked like a peddler just opening his pack.
He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
and filled all the stockings, with SP and LSA Rulings.
And laying his finger aside of his nose,
and giving a nod, up the chimney he rose.
He sprang to his SLSA, completed his preflight,
And away he flew like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, 'ere he flew out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"
(An Adaptation of the Classic Poem, "T'was the Night Before Christmas")
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: please keep corvair discussion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Randy Stout <n282rs@earthlink.net>
As far as I know there are no HDS/Corvair combinations flying at this time. Just
my HD and a couple of XL's
Randy Stout
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
n282rs@earthlink.net
>People-
> Talk about getting off track!! The original question (About 2 weeks
>ago ) was "Can anyone provide some real performance numbers for a WW/HDS
>combination?" Well, I'm one of the orphans with an HDS, and still would like
>to hear an answer to the original question.
> Nomex unnecessary. Focus is.
>
>Bill
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Tarabocchia's flaps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
The more we listen to old pilots, the more we learn... I once was advised by a
retired bush Pilot: "If the plane has flaps, use them to take off and land,
airplanes are designed to fly and built as light as possible, so the less time
they spend running in the ground (mainly in grass or dirt strips) the more they
last, because the vibration from the landing gear harms the airplane over
the years".
Sound good enough to me. also the wheels and brakes will last longer.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
701 912S
Guadalajara,
Flying from Chapala Mexico.
Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
>now that I'm flying my HDS, I see no
>need whatsoever for flaps
Hi Paul,
I have not yet flown my Zodiac (due to serious lack of parts) but I
might be able to address the flaps question from experience with other planes.
I agree with you about not needing flaps to reduce landing runway
requirements. They do help with that, but these planes have very
short requirements to start with.
Flaps are very useful to allow for steep approaches. This can be to
get over an obstacle and then land on a short runway or it can be
just to adjust for a high approach. This same approach angle can
usually be accomplished with a forward slip and no flaps.
The one place where there is no way to replace flaps is on
takeoff. A small amount of flaps helps get the plane off the ground
and might help clear that obstacle at the end of the runway.
Have fun,
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
---------------------------------
Message 24
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| Subject: | please keep corvair discussion... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Lets remember that one important part of the Matronics lists is the good archive
system that Matt Dralle designed.
This is great to mention all the options in engines and in general about building,
aqll this will be kept in the archives... So when newbies join, they will
search and find advise for lots of good info, including going to the special
lists of certain subject.
One time we all be gone from the list, one way or another, but the good avise
we can give will stay to be used by future builders and flyers.
I can remeber my first projects, where all the advise we could get was from a
letter to the address in the photos of "what our members are building" of Sport
Aviation or Kitplanes... If we were lucky to recieve an answer.
That was beeing alone with your project!
Saludos
Gary Gower.
701 912S
Guadalajara Mexico.
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
I don't disagree but you will get a much more informed response if you ask
your question on the Corvaircraft list.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: please keep corvair discussion
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
I second the motion.
Carlos
do not archive
Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted
by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Hanley"
Subject: Zenith-List: please move the corvair discution to another list.
> All the discussion of the Corvair engines is great but
> it belongs on another list. It is off topic here.
> Brett
Brett,
I submit that the recent Corvair discussion, since it pertained to the
suitability of Corvair
conversions for Zenith aircraft is quite relevant to the list and
especially appropriate and welcome to those who are making an engine choice,
and that such posts are just as germane as any of the posts that you have
made concerning engine choices.
Nomex on. Do not archive.
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: please keep corvair discussion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Bill.... Then is the time to join the (fly) Corvair list, if you find something
of that combo, , just let us all know.
Merry Christmas to all
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Next project a 601 XL... (Jabiru or Corvair?)
Randy Stout <n282rs@earthlink.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Randy Stout
As far as I know there are no HDS/Corvair combinations flying at this time. Just
my HD and a couple of XL's
Randy Stout
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
n282rs@earthlink.net
>People-
> Talk about getting off track!! The original question (About 2 weeks
>ago ) was "Can anyone provide some real performance numbers for a WW/HDS
>combination?" Well, I'm one of the orphans with an HDS, and still would like
>to hear an answer to the original question.
> Nomex unnecessary. Focus is.
>
>Bill
---------------------------------
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: please keep corvair discussion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
There is at least one HDS/WW Corvair that I know of here in Atlanta. It
was built by Greg Jannakos and he has 30 hours or so on it. I will try
to send this email to him so he will post some performance numbers.
Ron DeWees
do not archive
Randy Stout wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Randy Stout <n282rs@earthlink.net>
>
>As far as I know there are no HDS/Corvair combinations flying at this time. Just
my HD and a couple of XL's
>
>Randy Stout
>www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
>n282rs@earthlink.net
>
>
>
>>People-
>> Talk about getting off track!! The original question (About 2 weeks
>>ago ) was "Can anyone provide some real performance numbers for a WW/HDS
>>combination?" Well, I'm one of the orphans with an HDS, and still would like
>>to hear an answer to the original question.
>> Nomex unnecessary. Focus is.
>>
>>Bill
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Original question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Randy,
I think Joe Horton has an HDS corvair that is
recently flying - I may be mistaken. I thought he was
on this list, but I will e-mail to the corvair list to
see if he is hanging about there.
Brandon
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Original Question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Gents,
Belay my last. Joe Horton built a KR2. I think
I am losing it...
R/
Brandon
__________________________________
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
Message 29
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| Subject: | Grandson's First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Dear Threads Friends, today was a banner day in my meager aviation history. I
fulfilled the promise I made almost four years ago to my now eight year old
grandson, Jake, to take him flying when I finish building. He had accompanied
me to Sun n Fun three years ago and we camped out for the trip and he sat in
the ZAC XL and Roger talked to him and I made the promise. Thinking about all
the effort and $ that went into building and learning and grooming my bird paid
great dividends this morning when he laughed as we lifted off. He had our
camera and as we circled over his house he snapped photos and I took a couple from
the top of the instrument panel of the two of us flying together. I will
treasure that hour tell I'm gone. I had him grasp the stick as I maneuvered around
and feel the controls and he was thrilled. Having never been flying before
just the view made him bubble into the VOX mike. I think of the five operations
that little fellow has had to endure and the several more that remain and I
can't get over how positive and courageous his out look on life is and how much
fun he had today. I built a special seat for him about five inches thick so he
could see out because he is so small. Yes, for all you Dads and Grandpas out
there that are tired of building, running a bit short on finances or just
frustrated at the effort required or the slow pace of building and may be thinking
of giving up I offer this as encouragement to keep working. It will be worth
it. Best regards from me and mine on this our Holy Christmas. I received my
present today, Bill Phillips, N505WP 601XL-3300 w/DC
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Grandson's First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" <barcusc@comcast.net>
I can't think of a better Christmas Present !!!
God Bless, and Merry Christmas
Clyde Barcus
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Grandson's First Flight
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
> Dear Threads Friends, today was a banner day in my meager aviation
> history. I
> fulfilled the promise I made almost four years ago to my now eight year
> old
> grandson, Jake, to take him flying when I finish building. He had
> accompanied
> me to Sun n Fun three years ago and we camped out for the trip and he sat
> in
> the ZAC XL and Roger talked to him and I made the promise. Thinking about
> all
> the effort and $ that went into building and learning and grooming my bird
> paid
> great dividends this morning when he laughed as we lifted off. He had our
> camera and as we circled over his house he snapped photos and I took a
> couple from
> the top of the instrument panel of the two of us flying together. I will
> treasure that hour tell I'm gone. I had him grasp the stick as I
> maneuvered around
> and feel the controls and he was thrilled. Having never been flying before
> just the view made him bubble into the VOX mike. I think of the five
> operations
> that little fellow has had to endure and the several more that remain and
> I
> can't get over how positive and courageous his out look on life is and how
> much
> fun he had today. I built a special seat for him about five inches thick
> so he
> could see out because he is so small. Yes, for all you Dads and Grandpas
> out
> there that are tired of building, running a bit short on finances or just
> frustrated at the effort required or the slow pace of building and may be
> thinking
> of giving up I offer this as encouragement to keep working. It will be
> worth
> it. Best regards from me and mine on this our Holy Christmas. I received
> my
> present today, Bill Phillips, N505WP 601XL-3300 w/DC
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: T'was The Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes Style |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" <jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca>
Very, very good, thank you Jim
Merry Xmas too
Jean-Paul
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: T'was The Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes Style
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
>
> 'Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the forum
> not an EMAIL was posted, not even a note.
> The stockings were hung by the laptop with care,
> in hopes that Tom P. soon would be there.
>
> The pilots were nestled all snug in their beds,
> while visions of SLSA's danced in their heads.
> The aircraft in their hangars, and I in my cap,
> had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap.
>
> When out on the tarmac there arose such a clatter,
> I sprang from my desk to see what was the matter.
> Away to the window I flew like a flash,
> tore open the shutter, and threw up the sash.
>
> The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
> gave the lustre of midday to the tie-downs below,
> when, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
> but a Light Sport Aircraft and eight big EAA 'rs.
>
> With a little old pilot, so lively and quick,
> I knew in a moment it must be Tom P.
> More rapid than eagles, his coursers they came,
> and he whistled and shouted and called them by name:
>
> "Now Rutan! Now Melville!
> Now, Fossett and Boyer!
> On, Lawrence! On, Heintz!
> On, Van G and Sawyer!
>
> To the end of the runway!
> To the tie-down area
> Now Shut Down ! Shut Down!
> Shut Down All Engines"
>
> As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
> when they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky
> so up to the top of the FBO they flew,
> with the sleigh full of flight toys, and Tom P. too.
>
> And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
> the prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
> As I drew in my head and was turning around,
> down the chimney Tom P. came with a bound.
>
> He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
> and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
> A bundle of new FAA rules he had flung on his back,
> and he looked like a peddler just opening his pack.
>
> He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
> and filled all the stockings, with SP and LSA Rulings.
> And laying his finger aside of his nose,
> and giving a nod, up the chimney he rose.
>
> He sprang to his SLSA, completed his preflight,
> And away he flew like the down of a thistle.
> But I heard him exclaim, 'ere he flew out of sight,
> "Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"
>
>
> (An Adaptation of the Classic Poem, "T'was the Night Before Christmas")
>
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All
>
> Jim Pellien
> Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
> The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
> www.MASPL.com
> 703-313-4818
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Tarabocchia's flaps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
ok. I'll bite.
I haven't used the flaps since I almost crashed during flight testing.
I had about 10 hours on the plane. There was a about 10kt crosswind
with gusts. I had the flaps about 1/2 way deployed. About 10 feet above
the runway, at about 50 mph, 633Z suddenly was going sideways, about 45
degrees. The flaps weathervaned me into the wind. I immediately went
full throttle and flew over the windsock at AWO. Since then I've been
adverse to flaps. An XL is light..... Ask my passengers who have been
in turbulence.
Without flaps the forward visibility is excellent on approach.
If I need to come in over an obstacle I slip - love it. The XL slips well.
I tend to pull the throttle at the numbers, turn base at 800 ft AGL,
fly 80mph until I turn final and then slow down to 60mph before I
cross the threshold. I land at about 50mph. Yeah, if I try to slow
to 40 mph, at idle, I'll drop. I can fly at 40mph without flaps and
hold altitude, but that's with a bit of throttle.
I took a workmate up last week and headed over to Vashon Muni.
2S1 is a 2000ft grass strip with trees on both ends. There was
turbulence and a gusty crosswind. I made a low pass first, then went
around, landed, and back taxied about 1/2 way down 35. It is exciting
touching down at 50mph on a grass strip with a big ditch on the side.
I have noticed, I've had a variety of folks flying 633Z and have flown
with a bunch of CFIs, that each pilot has their own flying style - same
with engines, airplane choices, and modifications. It's important to fly
the way you like and get comfortable with your airplane.
(I've flown with pilots who want to use the flaps. In that case I do...)
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
285 hours
CH601XL, Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 49x64
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Paul Hartl wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Hartl" <paulhartl@cox.net>
> Hi Phill,
> I thought I was missing out with no flaps when they
> came out with the XL - after I had already purchased
> my HDS kit. But now that I'm flying my HDS, I see no
> need whatsoever for flaps. In fact, my friend Joe
> Edwards out in Seattle doesn't use his on his XL
> much at all (right, Joe?).
> ........snip
> Paul Hartl, N414PZ, 601HDS/Jabiru 3300A, 37 hours, 47 landings
> Flight Simulator 2002/4 Zodiac Website: www.members.cox.net/paulhartl
> Sun Valley, Idaho 83340 208-788-9147
> do not archive
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