---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/31/05: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:18 AM - Re: Re: curious about builders' experiences () 2. 01:48 AM - AW: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity (Martin Pohl) 3. 06:04 AM - Re: DAR inspection (Bob Unternaehrer) 4. 07:02 AM - forum (Robert St.Denis) 5. 07:27 AM - CH701 (john swanson) 6. 08:01 AM - Re: Uni bits (bill naumuk) 7. 08:12 AM - Re: curious about builders' experiences (Larry McFarland) 8. 08:17 AM - Re: DAR inspection (Larry McFarland) 9. 08:54 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: Tach RPM Error (John M. Goodings) 10. 09:15 AM - Re: curious about builders' experiences (bill naumuk) 11. 09:31 AM - Re: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of GravityZodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity (David X) 12. 10:02 AM - Re: Tach RPM error (NYTerminat@aol.com) 13. 10:08 AM - Re: curious about builders' experiences (fred sanford) 14. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Tach RPM Error (NYTerminat@aol.com) 15. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: curious about builders' experiences (Mike) 16. 11:26 AM - Re: CH701 (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 17. 11:29 AM - Avionics for sale (Mark Stauffer) 18. 12:46 PM - Re: CH701 (doug kandle) 19. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: curious about builders' experiences (Gary Liming) 20. 01:54 PM - AW: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of GravityZodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity (Martin Pohl) 21. 02:33 PM - Re: Tach RPM error (David Alberti) 22. 02:55 PM - Center wing spar question (Randy) 23. 02:55 PM - Re: Tach RPM error (Paul Mulwitz) 24. 03:22 PM - Re: DAR inspection (ron dewees) 25. 03:41 PM - Re: Tach RPM error (David Alberti) 26. 04:02 PM - Re: CH701 (NYTerminat@aol.com) 27. 04:32 PM - 801 Builders (Rick Campbell) 28. 04:42 PM - Re: Tach RPM error (NYTerminat@aol.com) 29. 05:14 PM - Re: Tach RPM error (Craig Payne) 30. 06:36 PM - Re: Tach RPM error (cgalley) 31. 06:44 PM - Re: DAR inspection (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 32. 10:10 PM - Re: Primer (William Jeffries) 33. 10:21 PM - Re: Center wing spar question (Bryan Martin) 34. 11:04 PM - Re: Tach RPM error (NYTerminat@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:34 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: curious about builders' experiences --> Zenith-List message posted by: > Matt, you will be finished in a year or so? At the clip your completing your bird I was thinking more like 6 months or so! keep pressing on! mike derby do not archive > From: "Matt & Jo" > Date: 2005/12/30 Fri PM 11:58:47 EST > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: curious about builders' experiences > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" > > Don, > > You can check out my website for details of the build. www.zodiacxl.com > > First, some philosophy. The journey of the build is much of the experience. > There is a mix between wanting to get into the air and saving as much money > as you can. I have learned and continue to learn so much. I though I knew > quite a bit. I am an Aerospace Engineer, and a Pilot. I have flown in the > Air Force and Reserves for the last 25 years. I have an ATP and have flown > 767, KC-135s and was a test pilot for Boeing for a while. I have been a > designer and a System Safety Engineer. I am amazed at how much I have > learned with this journey. Half the fun has been discovering new ways to > screw things up and then fixing it. I wish I hadn't made the mistakes I've > made but it is from these mistakes that I have learned. The whole reason > for experimental aircraft is to learn. Go into it with an open mind. > > I am really looking forward to flying. I probably have another year or so. > (Maybe a little optimistic) I got a test flight from the factory and from > another builder here in Wichita. Make sure you take a test flight. Know > what you are getting. > > Factory support has been very good. They have answered every question I > have had. > > The kit is very good. The photo assembly guides are a little deceptive. I > followed them very closely at first, but rely on the plans more and more. > The plans require careful study. The hours I logged don't include the many > hours looking at the drawings and pondering. You really need to understand > how the part you are working on fits into the next higher assembly before > you cut or drill. This has been the root of most of my rework. The first > time I had to rework a part I was over concerned. It really isn't that hard > to make a new part or to order a new one from the factory. I just ordered a > new side skin for the forward fuse. Had the cut out for the wing spar at > the wrong angle and miss drilled a couple of holes. Did it on Monday. > Ordered it that afternoon. Got it from ZAC yesterday. I know what I did > wrong and hopefully will make it work this time. > > Balance. Make sure you keep your family in mind. It is awful tempting to > spend too much time in the shop. Don't get too concerned about schedules. > It will take longer than you think. But that is ok. The best advice I have > heard is. It's a hobby not a job. > > I have enjoyed the project. Probably one of the best things I have done in > a long time. > > Good luck with your decision. > > Matt Archer > www.zodiacxl.com > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Herman > > > > Hey, guys, > > > > I'm giving serious consideration to jumping into a Zodiac project, so I > > was > > hoping some of you might share your experiences building the plane. I > > would be keen to hear whether you have built or are building the standard > > kit or the quick-build kit, and how many hours you figure you put into the > > project. I would also like your thoughts on the factory support, and what > > difficult problems you may have encountered during the build. Also, I > > would appreciate any general thoughts or observations you would care to > > share. -Don Herman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:33 AM PST US From: "Martin Pohl" Subject: AW: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Martin Pohl" The carbon-fiber gear is standard on Czech Aircraft Works aircraft (european dealer for the Zodiac XL). Therefore I don't know about price and availability of the gear as an option. Try to contact CEO Chip Erwin (AIRCRAFT@CZAW.CZ), he surely can give you an answer. The gear assembly itself is different than the standard Zenith aluminium gear. Some changes need to be made to the fuselage (it might be difficult to do that belated). The gear consists of 2 halfs. Cheers Martin Pohl 601XL CZAW QBK -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]Im Auftrag von kevinbonds Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Dezember 2005 06:21 An: zenith-list@matronics.com Betreff: RE: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Where can one purchase this carbon fiber landing gear you speak of? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin Pohl Subject: AW: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Martin Pohl" Thank you for your CG and empty weight values. I hope to also get an empty weight of around 720lbs. The Czech version of the Zodiac XL has a carbonfiber landing gear which is 30 lbs lighter than the aluminium gear. So I am still very confident... Cheers Martin -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]Im Auftrag von Jack Russell Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Dezember 2005 16:40 An: zenith-list@matronics.com Betreff: RE: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" My empty weight is 712lbs, CG is 264.8. I'm still not painted yet, so that will add a bit. Lance sent me his weight and balance as a example and I just did mine yesterday. I got 740 cg of 311. I am set up about the same as Lance but do have paint and a full interior. I did some examples with full tanks and two people180lbs andI can only get 40 lbs luggage for a total wt of 1284lbs. The problem with this senario is that when the fuel goes to 0 my cg is 479 which is aft of the 450 limit. I may get a bigger battery for the firewall. I also expected my WL,WR,WN measurement to be the same as lances' but I came up with a WR WL of 770 and a WN of -535 which was quite a ways off of Lance's measurement. I would be interested in others. Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:14 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: DAR inspection --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" My plane was inspected by the FSDO, but he had me make a log book entry myself using the standard inspection Jargen that I found it Airworthy. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Zenith-List: DAR inspection > --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com > > List > > I have a DAR inspection coming up soon and he rattled off a bunch of things > that he would be looking for. What took me by surprise is he said that I would > need a conditional inspection done within 30 days prior to the inspection. I > told him that I would be going for my own Repairman Certificate but won't have > it until later. He told me that I would require an A&P to do it. Has anyone > ever heard of this before? I couldn't find that requirement anywhere. > > Bob Spudis > N701ZX CH-701/912S > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:33 AM PST US From: "Robert St.Denis" Subject: Zenith-List: forum identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hey guys ... got bored this morning so I set up a forum http://ch640.iahu.ca/forum/ Have a good one [...] Content analysis details: (-4.4 points, 5.0 required) -1.8 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP 0.0 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert St.Denis" Hey guys ... got bored this morning so I set up a forum http://ch640.iahu.ca/forum/ Have a good one ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:43 AM PST US From: john swanson Subject: Zenith-List: CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson anyone Kit building the 701, wings almost done, working on fuselage I need help in positioning the Top Longeron Gusset. What reference point do I use to get it in the right place? I have a msg into ZAC but have not heard from them yet John Tie Lake, MI ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:14 AM PST US From: "bill naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Uni bits --> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" All- For me, availability is my main consideration, and the leads listers give on where to find odd-ball tools and parts may be the greatest benefit of this forum. I'm not going to blow half a day and $20 worth of gas to save $5 on a tool! My step drills came from Harbor Freight, only because I happened to be there, and they happened to be on sale. On the other hand, my last 3 tools came from small, homebuilder-specific US companies on leads from listers, and were a bargain for the fact that they work and I didn't have to look all over Hell for them. Now, excuse me while I go down to the local hardware store to pick up an American branded saw blade, made in Sweden. I might pay $1 more, but I'll be back in 20 minutes. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Uni bits > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Obviously my take on this issue is quite one sided and is based on the > fact > > that my livelihood and passion are based on the assumption that most > members > > of the aviation and kit building communities are intereted in buying > quality > > American made products at a fair price. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:10 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: curious about builders' experiences --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Don, You're looking at a project that can be extremely satisfying as either kit, quick-build or plans- built. Support from Zenith is regarded as very good. I'm a plans builder and I always got an answer within a day or two of email and when I called, usually they provided an explanation of what I needed know on the spot. The drawings were much improved at Version 4. What I've recently seen of XL drawings and build info, they've improved considerably since. I have to give Zenith high marks on builder-satisfaction during and after build. The real plus is that at 80+ hours the plane is still a real joy to fly. If you'd like to see the process evolved from my perspective, please visit my website with journal and pages of pictures arranged to show the methods I used to accomplish each type of component, and see the final product on the Completions page. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Don Herman wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Herman > >Hey, guys, > >I'm giving serious consideration to jumping into a Zodiac project, so I was >hoping some of you might share your experiences building the plane. I >would be keen to hear whether you have built or are building the standard >kit or the quick-build kit, and how many hours you figure you put into the >project. I would also like your thoughts on the factory support, and what >difficult problems you may have encountered during the build. Also, I >would appreciate any general thoughts or observations you would care to >share. -Don Herman > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:33 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: DAR inspection --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Bob, If you have an FAA office anywhere near or a FAA inspector that visits one of the larger airport repair facilities near you, it might be easier to get your Airworthiness Inspection done by him. The process is not lengthy and It should not take more than 3 - 4 hours of a morning. My inspector was more than pleased to visit and perform the necessary paper work to get this done. Larry McFarland do not archive NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com > >List > >I have a DAR inspection coming up soon and he rattled off a bunch of things >that he would be looking for. What took me by surprise is he said that I would >need a conditional inspection done within 30 days prior to the inspection. I >told him that I would be going for my own Repairman Certificate but won't have >it until later. He told me that I would require an A&P to do it. Has anyone >ever heard of this before? I couldn't find that requirement anywhere. > >Bob Spudis >N701ZX CH-701/912S > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:42 AM PST US From: "John M. Goodings" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Tach RPM Error --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" Believe the optical tach once you have checked it. Check it using any light bulb powered by the 60 Hz mains; i.e. 60 cycles per second = 3600 cycles per minute, or RPM. My inexpensive optical tach by Cermark shows 3600 RPM pointed at a light bulb; this is for a 2-bladed prop. Mine can also be set for a 3-bladed prop (shows 2400 RPM) or a 4-bladed prop (shows 1800 RPM) pointed at the light bulb. My brand new Mitchell electronic tach for the Rotax 912 engine read about 2/3 of the true value, and I came close to overspeeding the prop before I had the blade pitch set correctly. This was very disconcerting right at the beginning when the new engine had only been run a few times. I can appreciate your mental anguish. I was also annoyed that Mitchell would offer zero compensation because the tach had been sitting on a shelf in my basement for more than 2 years untouched, and was technically out of warranty. Mitchell gave me a load of rubbish to the effect that when a tach is left untouched, it is very hard on the tach! I suggested to them that, if true, they should give serious thought to redesigning their tachometer. One also has to worry whether the pickup point on the engine, i.e. the sender, is reading correctly. In my case, a new electronic tach agreed with the optical tach, meaning that the engine sender is fine. Good luck with it. But proceed with caution - don't overspeed the engine. John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, 97 hours, Toronto and Waterloo. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:54 AM PST US From: "bill naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: curious about builders' experiences --> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" Tracy- I agree with just about everything my fellow listers have said. Everything's a trade-off. My observations: 1. You WILL screw up big time. I'm an engineer, many of the listers are engineers, A+Ps, even EAA advisors and WE'VE ALL BEEN CAUGHT at some point in the building process. Don't get the impression "This can't happen to me" and you'll be prepared for the blow when it comes. Take heart that at least you're in good company. 2. Your best buddies are listers. They're people that have done it (Wrong) and figured out how to do it right. Formal list postings can get downright ugly; but you'll find that if you prove you're not wasting their time, listers will give you the shirt off their back to help you one-on-one. 3. Forget about progress by the hour. Concentrate on progress by work completed that you're not afraid to fly with. 4. While you'll occasionally find blueprint mistakes, most bad advice comes from the Builder's Manual. 5. Retro part support from Zenith is superb, but don't be afraid to make your own replacements. Since you have to be intimately familiar with the drawings to fabricate the parts, you're just as far ahead building from plans, in my estimation. 6. The most useful tool not included in the "Basic" list is the "Clicker" center punch. Good luck. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROBERT SCEPPA" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: curious about builders' experiences > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > > > Hi Tracy, I am a scrap builder as you say and I only > started > > last Sept. on my 701. I am working on the wing spars > right now > > and I must admit the plans do need mulling over. I > just found > > out thru some thinking that pitch meant rivet > spacing. Took me > > a while to figure it out, but it made sense as I > took a look at > > the MM scale. I am also in a group of guys building > a Glastar. > > I already have experience on building the rudder, > stabilizer, > > airlerons and flaps. It was quite an undertaking, > riveting and > > bucking rivets. Getting back to my wing spar. I have > the > > lightning holes drilled, but haven't flanged them > yet. I have a > > device I made up that will flange the holes while > its held in a > > drill press. Just got to try it out and see if it > works... > > Hey Tracy, good luck to you...Bob Sceppa > --- Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Crvsecretary@aol.com > > > > > > Hello Don: > > > > > > Here's a few thoughts - > > > > I really enjoy building my Zodiac from the standard > > kit; I ADMIRE the scrap, > > er, scratch builders out there !! I have a total of > > 71 hours actually > > building the rudder, tail, flaps, and I'm 85% done > > with the ailerons. I have to > > admit I have at least DOUBLE that in studying the > > plans and photo guide and > > planning my work, as well as building the table and > > equiping my shop (air > > compressor, etc.). > > > > Factory support - great. Support from other > > builders here on the Matronics > > list - FANTASTIC !! > > > > Go to the rudder workshop; it's worth the trip. > > > > You'll end up with the envy of the airstrip when > > complete, and the RV guys > > will drool with envy when you tell them the hours > > and the cost..... > > > > > > Tracy Smith > > Naugatuck, CT > > 601xl N458XL (reserved) > > do not archive > > > > > > Hey, guys, > > > > I'm giving serious consideration to jumping into a > > Zodiac project, so I was > > hoping some of you might share your experiences > > building the plane. I > > would be keen to hear whether you have built or are > > building the standard > > kit or the quick-build kit, and how many hours you > > figure you put into the > > project. I would also like your thoughts on the > > factory support, and what > > difficult problems you may have encountered during > > the build. Also, I > > would appreciate any general thoughts or > > observations you would care to > > share. -Don Herman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:15 AM PST US From: "David X" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of GravityZodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" I've been told by one of the owners at Czech Aircraft Works that the carbon fiber landing gear used in Europe requires some structural changes to the aircraft. It's not a straight bolt-on replacement for the heavy duty aluminum gear that comes with the kit. They claim that it is every bit as strong as the aluminum gear, but again they don't fly them as heavy as they do in the US - 450KG vs. 600KG. I haven't been able to find a straight bolt-on carbon gear replacement from a third party either. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:17 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Craig I wish it were that simple. No, I am using the 3 blade setting, I have a Woodcomp Klassic 3 bladed prop. In a message dated 12/31/2005 2:53:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, moorecomp@yahoo.com writes: Bob, You did not say what prop you are running. I would assume it is a three blade since you have the 100hp 912. If that is the case, then I would suspect that the optical tach is set up to read a 2 blade prop. All of your numbers have the prop turning 1/3rd greater than it should read on the optical tach. If the engine indicates 4502 as you say, then the prop would be turning 1852. If the optical tach is set for 2 blades, the it would show approx. 2468 rpm. I hope that this is the case and all goes well with the inspection. Best regards, Craig Moore ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:29 AM PST US From: fred sanford Subject: Zenith-List: Re: curious about builders' experiences --> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford Hi Don: It isn't easy to build one of these planes, but everyone I talk to that has ever done it says that it was the most fun year or their lives. Your brain gets a workout, you learn to use new tools, learn new skills, one challenge after another, etc. I've got 28 hours flying time on mine, and am already looking forward to the next building project. I had a friend helping me build mine, and that really helped. Also it is really nice to be able to chat here with the other builders. If you are at the go-no go decision; I'd say go for it! Have fun! do not archive Fred Sanford CH701 N9701 28 hours KIZA ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:57 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Tach RPM Error --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com John, Wow I'm not the only one that has such errors. I can't understand why there are such errors in these tachs. I will be trying to sort things out today. I hope that I haven't already overreved! Bob In a message dated 12/31/2005 11:56:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, goodings@yorku.ca writes: This was very disconcerting right at the beginning when the new engine had only been run a few times. I can appreciate your mental anguish. I was also annoyed that Mitchell would offer zero compensation because the tach had been sitting on a shelf in my basement for more than 2 years untouched, and was technically out of warranty. Mitchell gave me a load of rubbish to the effect that when a tach is left untouched, it is very hard on the tach! I suggested to them that, if true, they should give serious thought to redesigning their tachometer. One also has to worry whether the pickup point on the engine, i.e. the sender, is reading correctly. In my case, a new electronic tach agreed with the optical tach, meaning that the engine sender is fine. Good luck with it. But proceed with caution - don't overspeed the engine. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:38 AM PST US From: Mike Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: curious about builders' experiences --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike I also agree with most everything that was written here, but being the village skeptic on the list, I really wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't throw in a caution or two. :) As you have already read, most builders are enthusiasts about this hobby -- and the goal is to be sure you fall into that same category. There are those that enjoy the building process, and those that want to fly. Yes, there are some that fall somewhere in the middle, but my opinion is that you better lean heavily towards the builder side, or you could set yourself up for disappointment later on. Building these kit planes is NOT tab A into slot B, and it's definitely not as easy as the marketing materials make it sound. This is true especially when you consider that the airframe is all you get.....you still have to install everything firewall forward, and that's a whole other task unto itself (and not as easy as the rest of the plane). This is not to say that you need to be an A & P or an aerospace engineer (although many builders are one of those things). You can certainly plow through the process without those skills -- but understand that it will be far more difficult. Those of us that didn't know a spar from a rib have a larger challenge and learning curve. You could try the rudder kit before taking the full plunge. It's relatively cheap, and will give you a taste of what's ahead. Another caution though....the rudder is by far the easiest part to build on the plane, and the instructions are more detailed than some of the other components. Those cautions aside, if you really think you'll enjoy building (most important), and you can put flying on the back burner for a while (unless of course you have acces to another plane), and if you have a reasonable set of skills, then go for it! Mike Fortunato 601XL --------------------------------- Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:12 AM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com John, Alignment is shown on 7F5, VIEW FROM TOP. It shows the 20 mm dimension lined up over 7F5-3SP. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:24 AM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: Zenith-List: Avionics for sale --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Fellow listers, I have a friend that has the following for sale: 99 Apollo GX65 GPS/COMM 99 Apollo SL 79 transponder (300 watt) Trans Cal Industries SSD120 encoder w/RS232 GPS Antennae and data card The units have been bench checked. He is asking $3,000.00 for the whole set up. Please e-mail me off list if you're interested and I can give you his name and phone number. Please don't ask me any specific questions because I can't answer them. Mark Stauffer 601XL firewall forward Odenton, MD Do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:32 PM PST US From: doug kandle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle I am about a couple of weeks behind you so I thought I would look at this problem. Speaking without having actually completed this task (so beware!) Figure 7-F-5, Top view. Point "A" is marked on the drawing (left side pointing to the intersection of 7F5-1SP and 7F3-1). I believe that this point will correspond to the point marked "A" on the part drawing for 3SP on page 7-F-3. At 08:26 AM 12/31/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson > >anyone > >Kit building the 701, wings almost done, working on fuselage >I need help in positioning the Top Longeron Gusset. What reference point >do I use >to get it in the right place? >I have a msg into ZAC but have not heard from them yet > >John >Tie Lake, MI > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:44 PM PST US From: Gary Liming Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: curious about builders' experiences --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming Mike's comments below as the resident skeptic are in order, well stated, and accurate - its not easy. I think, though, that the challenge of learning to fly, i.e., mastering not only the stick and rudder but several other subjects like navigation, weather, systems, communications, and yes, even regulations, is a steep learning curve as well. It is that kind of sense of accomplishment you get from leaping these hurdles that makes you love this stuff, hungry for more. Building an airplane is another long list of learning curves that represents a new kind of challenge. If you can't handle delayed gratification, stay away - but then, you probably wouldn't be a pilot, either. I believe its true that if you don't like learning new things, applying those things until you get it right, and enjoying the result, then probably homebuilding isn't for you. However, I can honestly say that there have been very, very few feelings in my life that comes close to what you feel when you finally fly the aircraft you built for the first time. It took me 5 years, and I am thinking of doing it again. The sense of the miracle of flight (if that's just a cliche for you now, just wait!) and the sensation of controlling a untried craft in the air, one that you know every detail, the trepidation that maybe you've overlooked something, the joy of feeling its response, and the safe return when you can say you've honestly join the ranks of test pilots is just something that really can't be explained. I think it is well worth it. Gary Liming >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike > >I also agree with most everything that was written here, but being >the village skeptic on the list, I really wouldn't be doing my job >if I didn't throw in a caution or two. :) As you have already >read, most builders are enthusiasts about this hobby -- and the >goal is to be sure you fall into that same category. There are >those that enjoy the building process, and those that want to fly. >Yes, there are some that fall somewhere in the middle, but my >opinion is that you better lean heavily towards the builder side, >or you could set yourself up for disappointment later on. Building >these kit planes is NOT tab A into slot B, and it's definitely not >as easy as the marketing materials make it sound. This is true >especially when you consider that the airframe is all you >get.....you still have to install everything firewall forward, and >that's a whole other task unto itself (and not as easy as the rest >of the plane). ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:27 PM PST US From: "Martin Pohl" Subject: AW: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of GravityZodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Martin Pohl" I build the Zodiac XL as an "experimental" with a MTOW of 590kg - and the gear should be capable to support this weight according CZAW. Nevertheless I had a look in the building plans and it really looks like as the installation of the carbon gear results in "major" changes of the fuselage structure... Cheers Martin -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]Im Auftrag von David X Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Dezember 2005 18:30 An: zenith-list@matronics.com Betreff: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of GravityZodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" I've been told by one of the owners at Czech Aircraft Works that the carbon fiber landing gear used in Europe requires some structural changes to the aircraft. It's not a straight bolt-on replacement for the heavy duty aluminum gear that comes with the kit. They claim that it is every bit as strong as the aluminum gear, but again they don't fly them as heavy as they do in the US - 450KG vs. 600KG. I haven't been able to find a straight bolt-on carbon gear replacement from a third party either. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:24 PM PST US From: "David Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" I am assuming you have already discovered that the rotax fires on both the compression and exhaust stroke. Perhaps the pickups you have are not generating the correct signal due to the impulses being too close together in the higher RPM ranges. IE a 7000 rpm tach is receiving a 10,000 rpm signal a 5,000 rpm and over driving the tach. Dave 601-HD 912ULS You did not say what prop you are running. I would assume it is a three blade since you have the 100hp 912. If that is the case, then I would suspect that the optical tach is set up to read a 2 blade prop. All of your numbers have the prop turning 1/3rd greater than it should read on the optical tach. If the engine indicates 4502 as you say, then the prop would be turning 1852. If the optical tach is set for 2 blades, the it would show approx. 2468 rpm. I hope that this is the case and all goes well with the inspection. Best regards, Craig Moore ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:48 PM PST US From: "Randy" Subject: Zenith-List: Center wing spar question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy" Hello members, I have a question about the center wing spar on my 601xl kit (pre-made part by Zenith). I thing I might have a problem with the way my center wing spar(6W4) was drilled. I drilled the wing jig spar insert(6B13) and when I inserted them into the wing spar the passenger side is at a greater angle than the pilot side. I thought I might have drilled the holes incorrectly but after I re-measured them, they are correct. So I decided to measure the holes in the center wing spar (6W4) and found that the holes on the passenger side come in at a greater angle than do the holes on the pilot side. I measured from the flange to the bottom of the holes. The most inboard hole on both the pilot and passenger sides is 36mm. The most outboard hole on the pilot side is 40mm and on the passenger side is 44mm. I put a Smart Level on both sides and when the center wing spar is level (0.0) the pilot side spar insert jig is 5.0 and the passenger side jig is 5.8. Won't this make the tip of the right wing be considerably higher than the left? I've just sent an email to Zenith complete with pictures but I thought, with the expertise of this list, I would check here also. Thanks, Randy Ferri 601xl ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:48 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I knew there was something about the Rotax I didn't like, but I wasn't sure what it was. Apparently they just use their 2 stroke ignition system for the 4 stroke engine . . . Paul XL wings do not archive At 02:32 PM 12/31/2005, you wrote: >I am assuming you have already discovered that the rotax fires on both the >compression and exhaust stroke. Perhaps the pickups you have are not >generating the correct signal due to the impulses being too close together >in the higher RPM ranges. IE a 7000 rpm tach is receiving a 10,000 rpm >signal a 5,000 rpm and over driving the tach. > >Dave 601-HD 912ULS --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:57 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: DAR inspection --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi Bob, I second what Larry said. The guy who shares a hangar with me got his project inspected 2 years ago by the FSDO office and the lady was very up to date about paperwork and the process took about 40 minutes. I had my inspection done about 1 year ago by the MIDO office which seems to be a lot more aware of experimental and construction practices. I must have called at an off time since a car with 4 inspectors pulled up to the airport. I expected to have to drop my pants and cough, but it was a very pleasant experience. I think several of the inspectors were in training and my plane made an excuse for a field trip. This week a friend of mine at my airport had a very sharp DAR do his inspection and the inspection also took about an hour but cost $500 cash. I can't say which is better or worse, but this is just my experience. I am sure the DAR scheduled on a shorter notice than the FAA did, but I would move pretty fast for $500 an hour! I will say that both MIDO and FSDO seemed to have the attitude that it was my right to kill myself in the plane as long as the proper paperwork had been filed and approved. The DAR would have been a better choice if I was depending on someone to give it one more checkout before the flight. OTOH, I had a very good EAA tech counselor who did do a good checkout so I didn't depend on the FAA to backstop my errors. In general I suspect that the FAA will take longer to schedule an inspection so if you want to use them I suggest you get some telephone numbers and start dialing, Ron do not archive Larry McFarland wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > >Bob, >If you have an FAA office anywhere near or a FAA inspector that visits >one of the larger airport repair facilities >near you, it might be easier to get your Airworthiness Inspection done >by him. The process is not lengthy and >It should not take more than 3 - 4 hours of a morning. My inspector was >more than pleased to visit and perform >the necessary paper work to get this done. > >Larry McFarland >do not archive > >NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:29 PM PST US From: "David Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" This is a standard practice on most new electronic ignition systems. They see the trigger on every revolution of the crankshaft and fire on every trigger. Dave 601-HD 912ULS -----Original Message----- --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I knew there was something about the Rotax I didn't like, but I wasn't sure what it was. Apparently they just use their 2 stroke ignition system for the 4 stroke engine . . . Paul XL wings ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:33 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com You are so right! Bob Spudis N701ZX In a message dated 12/31/2005 3:47:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, d_kandle@velocitus.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle I am about a couple of weeks behind you so I thought I would look at this problem. Speaking without having actually completed this task (so beware!) Figure 7-F-5, Top view. Point "A" is marked on the drawing (left side pointing to the intersection of 7F5-1SP and 7F3-1). I believe that this point will correspond to the point marked "A" on the part drawing for 3SP on page 7-F-3. At 08:26 AM 12/31/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson > >anyone > >Kit building the 701, wings almost done, working on fuselage >I need help in positioning the Top Longeron Gusset. What reference point >do I use >to get it in the right place? >I have a msg into ZAC but have not heard from them yet > >John >Tie Lake, MI > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:36 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 801 Builders From: "Rick Campbell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Campbell" I have a pair of vacuum formed interior door panels for the CH-801 for sale. They feature built-in arm rests and map pockets, they give the interior a professional finished look. If anyone is interested e-mail me off-list. 31/12/2005 Rick Campbell rcampbell@me.vccs.edu http://www.mecc.edu This email is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned as recipient(s). This email and its attachments, if any, contain confidential information and/or may contain information protected by intellectual property rights or others rights. This email does not constitute any commitment from Mountain Empire Community College or its subsidiaries except when expressly agreed in a written agreement between the intended recipient and Mountain Empire Community College or its subsidiaries. If you receive this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this email immediately from your system and destroy all copies of it. You may not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print or copy this email or any part of it if you are not the intended recipient. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:04 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com I am aware that the Rotax fires on each stroke. The Straomaster E-1 is set up to look at that signal on every revolution. It seems to be reading way low in low and high RPM. I can set the Stratomaster to a .7 or .8 setting which will fake it into getting a closer RPM range( .7 is high by approx 400 and the .8 setting is low by about 400 RPM). I can't set it inbetween (ie .75) to make up the difference. This is the 2nd Stratomaster and it reads the same as the 1st one. The Tiny tach which picks up inductance off the plug wire is low by well over 1000 RPM in the upper RPM range. How accurate are everyone elses tach? I reset the prop to 13 degrees and get a optical tach reading of 5395 at max RPM, which is real close to the 6% less than max RPM at static test that Woodcomp reccomends. I pulled the plugs and checked the ratio between the prop and piston TDC and it looks like the 2.43 to 1 is correct. Do I have to live with this inaccuracy? Bob Spudis N701ZX CH-701/912S do not archive In a message dated 12/31/2005 6:42:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, daberti@sbcglobal.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" This is a standard practice on most new electronic ignition systems. They see the trigger on every revolution of the crankshaft and fire on every trigger. Dave 601-HD 912ULS -----Original Message----- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:05 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" A number of people have complained about the accuracy of a variety of tachs that try to pick-up signals from the ignition system. Mark Langford for one over on the Corvair list. What appears to be the most reliable is a gear-tooth sensor. Mark is changing over his GRT engine monitor to use that with an additional black box from GRT. William Wynne of Corvair fame is using a gear tooth sensor on his 601xl/Corvair. When I ordered my Stratormaster Ultra Deluxe Whoopie Wizbang glass panel I also ordered their sensor: "GT-1 Geartooth sensor for Rotor RPM, $85" http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html While this is intended for rotor speed Rainier at MGL says it should work fine for engine rpm. Here is another sensor to consider: a tach signal "Giant Magnetoresistive" pickup: http://www.msdignition.com/2006/06-22.htm -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com I am aware that the Rotax fires on each stroke. The Straomaster E-1 is set up to look at that signal on every revolution. It seems to be reading way low in low and high RPM. I can set the Stratomaster to a .7 or .8 setting which will fake it into getting a closer RPM range( .7 is high by approx 400 and the .8 setting is low by about 400 RPM). I can't set it inbetween (ie .75) to make up the difference. This is the 2nd Stratomaster and it reads the same as the 1st one. The Tiny tach which picks up inductance off the plug wire is low by well over 1000 RPM in the upper RPM range. How accurate are everyone elses tach? I reset the prop to 13 degrees and get a optical tach reading of 5395 at max RPM, which is real close to the 6% less than max RPM at static test that Woodcomp reccomends. I pulled the plugs and checked the ratio between the prop and piston TDC and it looks like the 2.43 to 1 is correct. Do I have to live with this inaccuracy? Bob Spudis N701ZX CH-701/912S do not archive In a message dated 12/31/2005 6:42:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, daberti@sbcglobal.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" --> This is a standard practice on most new electronic ignition systems. They see the trigger on every revolution of the crankshaft and fire on every trigger. Dave 601-HD 912ULS -----Original Message----- ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:04 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Harley used that method for years. My V-6 Buick uses only 3 coils and uses the same lost spark scheme. Nothing wrong with it. Cy Galley - Webmaster www.edgewoodaggregates.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" > > This is a standard practice on most new electronic ignition systems. They > see the trigger on every revolution of the crankshaft and fire on every > trigger. > > Dave 601-HD 912ULS > > -----Original Message----- > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > I knew there was something about the Rotax I didn't like, but I > wasn't sure what it was. > > Apparently they just use their 2 stroke ignition system for the 4 > stroke engine . . . > > Paul > XL wings > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:03 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: DAR inspection --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Get another DAR. Your paying, right ? Find one that understands his job. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:51 PM PST US From: William Jeffries Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Primer --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Jeffries Kevin, As I understand zinc oxide, it's designed for use on steel. I would need to research it further to form an opinion. However, chromate is not out of the realm on price. Bill Jeffries kevinbonds wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Bill What are your thoughts on Zinc Oxide as a replacement for Chromate? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Jeffries Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Jeffries Dave, The primer that Diamond-Vogel is the right stuff. I've read the posts bragging all the different primers, epoxies, activator products, etc. So I thought that I would give a quick explaination of how and why Zinc Chromate primers are probably the best for aircraft. Most primers seal the material that they are bonded to there by offering protection the the base metal. Self etching products are just describing a method of improving the bond to the base material. Zinc Chromate offers protection by sealing the metal as the others do however they offer one other means of protection. Zinc Chromate has free electrons at a molecular level that are offered up to the base metal to help stablize the material and prevent corrosion. Zinc Chromate has been an industry standard far longer than I've been alive, it's proven and trusted. Hope this helps, Bill Jeffries. --------------------------------- 601 Dreaming, going down for a test flight in September. --------------------------------- Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Center wing spar question From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin It is my understanding that the the center and outer segments of the wing spar of the XL are assembled in a jig and the holes are drilled through both parts at the same time. The holes drilled on the left side may not be aligned the same as the holes on the right side but when all three segments are bolted together both outer wing spars should be at the same angle. You can test this out by putting the three sections of the spar together and measuring the dihedral angle on both sides. The holes drilled on the left side of the center wing spar section should match up with the holes on the left outer spar section and the same match up should exist on the right side. As I recall, I ran into the same situation as you, drilling the wing jigs according to the dimensions on the plans resulted in the holes in the wing jigs not lining up with the holes already drilled in the center spar section. The left side and the right side hole patterns were different. I ended up using a file to oval out some of the holes in the jigs to make them fit. After I made my adjustments, the jigs worked out just fine. The "dihedral angle" of the wing jigs in not very important anyway. The important thing is the fore-aft angles of the spar center section and the rear frame. This is what the wing jigs are designed to establish. To make the wing jigs, the holes need to be match drilled with the holes already drilled in the spar center section. The hole locations shown in the plans are the "nominal" locations, the actual locations will be a bit different. This point apparently is not made clear in the plans. If you check the list archives, I think you will find a discussion of this subject that took place a couple of years ago. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. on 12/31/05 5:52 PM, Randy at rpf@wi.rr.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy" > > Hello members, > > I have a question about the center wing spar on my 601xl kit (pre-made part by > Zenith). > > I thing I might have a problem with the way my center wing spar(6W4) was > drilled. I drilled the wing jig spar insert(6B13) and when I inserted them > into the wing spar the passenger side is at a greater angle than the pilot > side. I thought I might have drilled the holes incorrectly but after I > re-measured them, they are correct. So I decided to measure the holes in the > center wing spar (6W4) and found that the holes on the passenger side come in > at a greater angle than do the holes on the pilot side. > > I measured from the flange to the bottom of the holes. The most inboard hole > on both the pilot and passenger sides is 36mm. The most outboard hole on the > pilot side is 40mm and on the passenger side is 44mm. I put a Smart Level on > both sides and when the center wing spar is level (0.0) the pilot side spar > insert jig is 5.0 and the passenger side jig is 5.8. Won't this make the tip > of the right wing be considerably higher than the left? > > I've just sent an email to Zenith complete with pictures but I thought, with > the expertise of this list, I would check here also. > > Thanks, > Randy Ferri > 601xl > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:49 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tach RPM error --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Craig, The signal for the tach on the 912 is a seperate pickup coil seperate from the ignition system. The gear tooth sensor may have some issuse at the high RPM of the Rotax. The MSD sensor may be something that may work. I will see what MSL has to say on monday. Happy New Year to all. Bob Spudis do not archive In a message dated 12/31/2005 8:15:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, craig@craigandjean.com writes: A number of people have complained about the accuracy of a variety of tachs that try to pick-up signals from the ignition system. Mark Langford for one over on the Corvair list. What appears to be the most reliable is a gear-tooth sensor. Mark is changing over his GRT engine monitor to use that with an additional black box from GRT. William Wynne of Corvair fame is using a gear tooth sensor on his 601xl/Corvair. When I ordered my Stratormaster Ultra Deluxe Whoopie Wizbang glass panel I also ordered their sensor: "GT-1 Geartooth sensor for Rotor RPM, $85" http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html While this is intended for rotor speed Rainier at MGL says it should work fine for engine rpm. Here is another sensor to consider: a tach signal "Giant Magnetoresistive" pickup: http://www.msdignition.com/2006/06-22.htm -- Craig