Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:28 AM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com)
2. 04:21 AM - Re: CH701 (john swanson)
3. 04:21 AM - Re: CH701 (john swanson)
4. 04:21 AM - Re: CH701 (john swanson)
5. 06:46 AM - builders experience (Brett Hanley)
6. 06:49 AM - Fw: DAR inspection (cgalley)
7. 07:02 AM - Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. (Al Young)
8. 07:18 AM - Re: quick build 601 XL (long) (Dave Austin)
9. 07:35 AM - Still locking up (bill naumuk)
10. 07:54 AM - Re: builders experience (doug kandle)
11. 08:59 AM - Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 09:08 AM - Re: Still locking up (Craig Moore)
13. 09:10 AM - Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. (Jack Russell)
14. 09:21 AM - Re: Still locking up (Paul Mulwitz)
15. 09:41 AM - Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. (Carlos Sa)
16. 09:46 AM - Re: Still locking up / poor man's Catia (Carlos Sa)
17. 10:49 AM - Re: Site update (Larry McFarland)
18. 11:05 AM - Re: Still locking up (bill naumuk)
19. 11:46 AM - Newbie Scratch Builder (was Re: 601XL v. 701Cabin Comfort) (Nate Erb)
20. 12:02 PM - Re: builders experience (Craig Payne)
21. 12:58 PM - Re: Still locking up (Larry McFarland)
22. 01:18 PM - Re: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity ()
23. 01:47 PM - ENGINE ALIGNMENT ()
24. 04:08 PM - aero carb (owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com)
25. 04:13 PM - Re: Re:Wing painting jig (Al Young)
26. 04:51 PM - Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. (Edward Moody II)
27. 05:04 PM - Re: quick build 601 XL (long) (Allen Ricks)
28. 05:29 PM - Re: 601XL v. 701Cabin Comfort (Garrou, Douglas)
29. 06:02 PM - Re: quick build 601 XL (long) (Craig Payne)
30. 06:51 PM - Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems (Michael Valentine)
31. 07:20 PM - Re: Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems (Zodie Rocket)
32. 07:36 PM - Re: Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems (Paul Mulwitz)
33. 07:50 PM - Scapbuilding help (kevinbonds)
34. 08:46 PM - Re: Fw: DAR inspection (NYTerminat@aol.com)
35. 09:33 PM - test (Charles Deiterich)
36. 09:48 PM - Re: Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems (Craig Moore)
37. 11:13 PM - Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing (Gary Gower)
38. 11:31 PM - Re: Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems (BIANCO Tadeusz Forgacz)
39. 11:42 PM - Re: quick build 601 XL (long) (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Zenith-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Zenith-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Zenith-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
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posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
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that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
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-------
[This is an automated posting.]
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson <jswanson@up.net>
At 03:45 PM 12/31/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
>
>I am about a couple of weeks behind you so I thought I would look at
>this problem. Speaking without having actually completed this task
>(so beware!)
>
>Figure 7-F-5, Top view. Point "A" is marked on the drawing (left
>side pointing to the intersection of 7F5-1SP and 7F3-1). I believe
>that this point will correspond to the point marked "A" on the part
>drawing for 3SP on page 7-F-3.
>
>At 08:26 AM 12/31/2005, you wrote:
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson <jswanson@up.net>
> >
> >anyone
> >
> >Kit building the 701, wings almost done, working on fuselage
> >I need help in positioning the Top Longeron Gusset. What reference point
> >do I use
> >to get it in the right place?
> >I have a msg into ZAC but have not heard from them yet
> >
> >John
> >Tie Lake, MI
> >
> >Doug
Thats it
I had been looking at 7F-5 but did not make the connection with point A
Thanks
John
do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson <jswanson@up.net>
At 03:45 PM 12/31/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
>
>I am about a couple of weeks behind you so I thought I would look at
>this problem. Speaking without having actually completed this task
>(so beware!)
>
>Figure 7-F-5, Top view. Point "A" is marked on the drawing (left
>side pointing to the intersection of 7F5-1SP and 7F3-1). I believe
>that this point will correspond to the point marked "A" on the part
>drawing for 3SP on page 7-F-3.
>
>At 08:26 AM 12/31/2005, you wrote:
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson <jswanson@up.net>
> >
> >anyone
> >
> >Kit building the 701, wings almost done, working on fuselage
> >I need help in positioning the Top Longeron Gusset. What reference point
> >do I use
> >to get it in the right place?
> >I have a msg into ZAC but have not heard from them yet
> >
> >John
> >Tie Lake, MI
> >
> >Doug
Thats it
I had been looking at 7F-5 but did not make the connection with point A
Thanks
John
do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson <jswanson@up.net>
At 03:45 PM 12/31/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
>
>I am about a couple of weeks behind you so I thought I would look at
>this problem. Speaking without having actually completed this task
>(so beware!)
>
>Figure 7-F-5, Top view. Point "A" is marked on the drawing (left
>side pointing to the intersection of 7F5-1SP and 7F3-1). I believe
>that this point will correspond to the point marked "A" on the part
>drawing for 3SP on page 7-F-3.
>
>At 08:26 AM 12/31/2005, you wrote:
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: john swanson <jswanson@up.net>
> >
> >anyone
> >
> >Kit building the 701, wings almost done, working on fuselage
> >I need help in positioning the Top Longeron Gusset. What reference point
> >do I use
> >to get it in the right place?
> >I have a msg into ZAC but have not heard from them yet
> >
> >John
> >Tie Lake, MI
> >
> >Doug
Thats it
I had been looking at 7F-5 but did not make the connection with point A
Thanks
John
do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | builders experience |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brett Hanley <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
I think the expectations of potential builders vary
greatly. Their real world experience varies
considerably as well. For example, a professional
that has never worked with tools will most likely have
a steeper learning curve than a tradesman that has
worked with his tools all his life. Someone that has
not yet mastered map reading skills is going to have a
tougher time with plans than a draftsman or auto cad
operator.
I personally found my plans built (not a kit) project
to be quite basic really. However, I have extensive
experience in reading plans. I am also an expert
craftsman in wood, plastics and other sheet goods.
This is the first project I have ever built from
metal. Therefore, I had a learning curve in this area
as well. The point is that most of us will have to
learn some new skills in the process. Some more than
others. The more you need to learn the longer the
project will take.
I got a phone call one day from a guy that lived about
ten miles from me. He introduced himself and
explained that we had a couple mutual friends. He had
heard that I was in the process of building a 701.
The next weekend he came over and hung out for a while
as I worked on my project. So I put him to work. By
this time I was passed most of the learning curve as
far as the sheet metal work was concerned. He had
taken an RV workshop and was able to help me with
solid rivet technique. We worked together on the
project for several months. A friendship developed as
well. He has now started his own 701 project so I see
a lot less of him. We still work together on our
projects from time to time. Some of the areas that
gave me the most problems are no big deal to him
because we have been through it all together before.
Find someone in your area and help them with their
project. Someone building the same plane would be
ideal. The skills are about the same for all the
Zenith designs so don't worry if they are building a
XL and you want a 701. In doing this your learning
curve will be greatly reduced. I did not have that
option. I am building the first airplane to ever be
manufactured in Costa Rica. This list has been an
invaluable tool for me. I have several mentors here.
There is a guy in Canada that has the same auto
conversion setup I am using. He has helped me
tremendously even though he lives about four thousand
nautical miles away. I guess you could say one of my
most important tools is the Internet and groups like
this one.
I suggest you use caution where you get your advise.
Find someone that has built the plane and is still
flying and refining it. These people have been
through it and know what does and does not work. We
all draw our opinions about these planes from
different perspectives. The best perspectives seem to
come from the people that have done it and are doing
it.
Resist the compelling urge to modify. If you are a
first time builder your best bet is to stay with the
plans. Very few mods that I have seen make the plane
fly better. Most mods just add complexity and weight.
Remember, this is only one perspective, mine. There
are at least three hundred others on this list as
well. Many of them quite interesting and better
informed. Good luck, blue skies and smooth landings.
Brett Hanley
CH 701 plans built
San Jose, Costa Rica
(506)771-7078
(506)371-4064
__________________________________
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
From EAA A&P, IA and DAR. If you continue to have this impasse, ask your
DAR to show you his requirement in FAA Order 8130.2F. After all the reason
you are paying the DAR is for this initial inspection and airworthiness
release for the testing phase.
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Norris" <jnorris@eaa.org>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: DAR inspection
> Cy,
>
> There's no requirement for an A&P to do an inspection before the
> airworthiness certificate is issued. If it's an amateur-built aircraft,
> he OWNER must sign a statement that the aircraft is in a condition for
> safe operation (basically the same statement that is used for a condition
> inspection) before the DAR will issue the airworthiness certificate. The
> owner does not need any sort of FAA certificate in order to make this
> statement.
>
> This is all covered in FAA Order 8130.2F, in the section on amateur-built
> aircraft. It specifically states that there is NO need for an A&P to do
> any inspection or make any sign-offs before the airworthiness inspection
> is conducted by the FAA. I'd suggest the DAR look at his order and follow
> it's guidance.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cgalley [mailto:cgalley@qcbc.org]
> Sent: Fri 12/30/2005 9:56 PM
> To: Joe Norris
> Cc:
> Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: DAR inspection
>
>
> Seems there is some confusion.
>
> Doesn't the DAR inspection work for the conditional or airworthiness? It
> is
> good for 1 year isn't it?
>
> If you haven't gotten your limited Repairman's only then do you need at
> least an A&P to do the yearly conditional inspection.
>
> Cy Galley - Chair,
> AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
> A Service Project of Chapter 75
> EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
> EAA Sport Pilot
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <NYTerminat@aol.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 9:32 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: DAR inspection
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
> >
> > List
> >
> > I have a DAR inspection coming up soon and he rattled off a bunch of
> > things
> > that he would be looking for. What took me by surprise is he said that I
> > would
> > need a conditional inspection done within 30 days prior to the
> > inspection.
> > I
> > told him that I would be going for my own Repairman Certificate but
> > won't
> > have
> > it until later. He told me that I would require an A&P to do it. Has
> > anyone
> > ever heard of this before? I couldn't find that requirement anywhere.
> >
> > Bob Spudis
> > N701ZX CH-701/912S
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
Paul- On my old plans (12/02) there is a hole for elec wires located at
480mm back of spar rivet line and 40 mm down from top of each rib. See
6-LLO-1. Hope this helps
Al Young
XL
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: quick build 601 XL (long) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Not sure why you say the Rotax 912 is expensive to maintain. Mine is 11
years old, 565 hrs and all I do is change the oil and antifreeze every year.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 9
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| Subject: | Still locking up |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
All-
Sending pictures still hit or miss. Some people get them, some don't. My computer
locked up when I tried to send them to Matt. I probably have a software
conflict somewhere.
What I did in AutoCad was work out the linkage dimensions for an internal RAC
powered trim system. The concept was not mine; I was working from another lister's
picture. When I settled on some numbers, I built a chunk of aileron as
proof of concept and got the travel I wanted.
There are still a lot of variables to be worked out such as flat plate vs airfoil,
tab geometry, tab area, etc. Builders who have come before me agree on
two points:
1. The airfoil tab seems to be less effective and harder to build.
2. The more area, the better.
Good building in '06!
Bill
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: builders experience |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
I completely agree with these comments. On the wall of a Navy Captain
I once saw a plaque with the statement: "Better is the enemy of Good Enough"
Some of the changes I have seen to aircraft were to fix imaginary
problems or they were fixes to a problem that the builder couldn't
figure out the underlying cause. (For example one builder moved his
radiator to the bottom of the aircraft because he could not figure
out why there was not enough air passing through it to cool the
engine when it was installed inside the cowling).
At 07:44 AM 1/2/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brett Hanley <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
>
>
>...
>I suggest you use caution where you get your advise.
>Find someone that has built the plane and is still
>flying and refining it.
...
>Resist the compelling urge to modify. If you are a
>first time builder your best bet is to stay with the
>plans. Very few mods that I have seen make the plane
>fly better. Most mods just add complexity and weight.
>
>
>Brett Hanley
>CH 701 plans built
>San Jose, Costa Rica
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Thanks Al.
Yes, that does help. That seems to be a feature removed from the new plans.
Paul
At 07:02 AM 1/2/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
>
>Paul- On my old plans (12/02) there is a hole for elec wires located at
>480mm back of spar rivet line and 40 mm down from top of each rib. See
>6-LLO-1. Hope this helps
>Al Young
>XL
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Still locking up |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
Bill,
Just a note to let you know of a program I found for
designing
linkages and mechanisms. Download the full functioning
demo, it
works very well. Sort of a poor man's Catia.
www.artas.nl/
I was playing with it and designed a dual control
wheel system
for a 701 with 5, 10 and 15 degree flap positions
(manual, center
lever) and slightly asymetric aileron throw (12 down
14 up).
Just playing.
Craig Moore
A&P and 701 builder wannabe
do not archive
--- bill naumuk <billn@velocity.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk"
> <billn@velocity.net>
>
> All-
> Sending pictures still hit or miss. Some people
> get them, some don't. My computer locked up when I
> tried to send them to Matt. I probably have a
> software conflict somewhere.
> What I did in AutoCad was work out the linkage
> dimensions for an internal RAC powered trim system.
> The concept was not mine; I was working from another
> lister's picture. When I settled on some numbers, I
> built a chunk of aileron as proof of concept and got
> the travel I wanted.
> There are still a lot of variables to be worked
> out such as flat plate vs airfoil, tab geometry, tab
> area, etc. Builders who have come before me agree on
> two points:
> 1. The airfoil tab seems to be less effective
> and harder to build.
> 2. The more area, the better.
> Good building in '06!
>
> Bill
> do not archive
__________________________________
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
Drip tubing makes a great light weight conduit to run those wires through. Jack
in Los Osos ca
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Still locking up |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Bill,
I am not sure I agree with the notion that more trim tab is better.
My thinking involves failure modes. If the trim tab gets stuck, you
have to overpower it by applying pressure to the stick. The bigger
the trim tab, the more constant pressure would be needed on the stick
to overcome this kind of failure. It could get very tiresome very fast.
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
At 07:35 AM 1/2/2006, you wrote:
>There are still a lot of variables to be worked out such as flat
>plate vs airfoil, tab geometry, tab area, etc. Builders who have
>come before me agree on two points:
> 1. The airfoil tab seems to be less effective and harder to build.
> 2. The more area, the better.
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Paul, the Construction Manual (p. 38) specifies parameters for "drilling small
holes":
d (distance from edge of hole to flange and/or lightening hole edge) should be
=< 38 mm; max diameter for hole 0.5
Cheers
Carlos
Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted
by: Paul Mulwitz
Thanks Al.
Yes, that does help. That seems to be a feature removed from the new plans.
Paul
At 07:02 AM 1/2/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young"
>
>Paul- On my old plans (12/02) there is a hole for elec wires located at
>480mm back of spar rivet line and 40 mm down from top of each rib. See
>6-LLO-1. Hope this helps
>Al Young
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Still locking up / poor man's Catia |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Craig, I'm reposting without d0 n0t arch1ve, as I think the URL can be useful to
others in the future.
Carlos
Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig
Moore
Bill,
Just a note to let you know of a program I found for
designing
linkages and mechanisms. Download the full functioning
demo, it
works very well. Sort of a poor man's Catia.
www.artas.nl/
I was playing with it and designed a dual control
wheel system
for a 701 with 5, 10 and 15 degree flap positions
(manual, center
lever) and slightly asymetric aileron throw (12 down
14 up).
Just playing.
Craig Moore
A&P and 701 builder wannabe
---------------------------------
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Really outstanding installation! I see yours is one of the best of all
worlds to fly from.
Best to you for a safe flight.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS
do not archive
Larry wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
>
>BlankI have update my site with new pictures. First page is a little different
and updated pictures are under "MORE PICTURES OF MY BIRD AND NEW ENGINE".
>
>Well It's finally about ready, adjust the prop, a little safety wire, odds and
ends, ground run it for about 20 hours and have my friends over for a cook out
and (friendly, I hope) inspection. Then it's time to call FAA.
>
>Larry Martin, www.skyhawg.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Still locking up |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
Craig-
I'm just playing, too. Can't proceed with my project until an order from
ACS comes in, and with the holidays, I won't see it until I'm back to work.
Not their fault. To keep occupied, I'm working on a problem that really
doesn't have to be solved for quite a while yet.
Through whatever method, in my mind I solved the linkage problem. Let's
look at what's still on the table:
* The Zenith recommended HDS flat plate tab hinges at the trailing edge
of the aileron.
On the plus side, it has a small drag profile, and the trailing edge
hinging improves leverage.
On the minus side, it's butt ugly, hangs out where polishing cloths,
shirts, etc. can get caught on it, and could be responsible for adverse
handling in turbulent conditions. You have a surface increasing aileron
travel whether you want it or not.
* An airfoil tab is aesthetically most pleasing, and hinges forward of
the trailing edge.
On the plus side, it "Looks like it belongs". I can't think of a
genav (As opposed to say, a STOL) certificated aircraft that doesn't use
this configuration. It also won't snag shirts, and since it can be
neutralized to become part of the aileron planform, shouldn't induce
negative handling in turbulent conditions.
On the minus side, it's a pain to build, and listers report marginal
efficiency.
* A flat tab is aesthetically acceptable and hinges forward of the
trailing edge.
On the plus side, it's easy to construct, and more importantly,
easiest to modify down the line. It also shouldn't induce negative handling
in turbulent conditions.
On the minus side, the forward hinging will mean an increased flat
plate drag area to achieve the same control movement as the Zenith tab. In
addition, unless hinged along the centerline of the aileron rib, more down
travel will be necessary to be equal in effect to up travel.
Like I said, I'm back to work Wednesday- you probably won't hear a
peep out of me for 6 months. I was hoping that someone with plenty of time
on their hands would plug things into the design program available on the
EAA website and find out what the drag penalties of the different
configurations is. My gut feeling is that you might be able to get an
acceptable compromise using a shorter length, longer chord (Extending from
the trailing edge maybe 1/2") flat tab, hinged ahead of the trailing edge.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Moore" <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Still locking up
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> Just a note to let you know of a program I found for
> designing
> linkages and mechanisms. Download the full functioning
> demo, it
> works very well. Sort of a poor man's Catia.
>
> www.artas.nl/
>
> I was playing with it and designed a dual control
> wheel system
> for a 701 with 5, 10 and 15 degree flap positions
> (manual, center
> lever) and slightly asymetric aileron throw (12 down
> 14 up).
>
> Just playing.
>
> Craig Moore
> A&P and 701 builder wannabe
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --- bill naumuk <billn@velocity.net> wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "bill naumuk"
> > <billn@velocity.net>
> >
> > All-
> > Sending pictures still hit or miss. Some people
> > get them, some don't. My computer locked up when I
> > tried to send them to Matt. I probably have a
> > software conflict somewhere.
> > What I did in AutoCad was work out the linkage
> > dimensions for an internal RAC powered trim system.
> > The concept was not mine; I was working from another
> > lister's picture. When I settled on some numbers, I
> > built a chunk of aileron as proof of concept and got
> > the travel I wanted.
> > There are still a lot of variables to be worked
> > out such as flat plate vs airfoil, tab geometry, tab
> > area, etc. Builders who have come before me agree on
> > two points:
> > 1. The airfoil tab seems to be less effective
> > and harder to build.
> > 2. The more area, the better.
> > Good building in '06!
> >
> > Bill
> > do not archive
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | 601XL v. 701Cabin Comfort) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Nate Erb" <nate@itfusionsos.com>
Bob (and all),
We lurkers do appreciate the novel-long info posts! I'm almost getting
information overload from this list.
Well, hello to everybody, I guess I'm not lurking anymore.
I have wanted to build a plane, and specifically a 601, for a long time
now. I planned on a kit for a long time but have since decided to
scratch build. If scuba-diver Michel Therrien can do it so can I, his
site and Larry's macsmachine.com site have been a real inspiration to
get going. I finally have an adequate home where I can begin the process
- I don't have major assembly room (read: a garage) but a good basement
where I can start fabricating parts and build a firewall-forward
package. I have access to a final assembly location when the time comes.
Started constructing a workshop and Christmas was good so the plans are
getting ordered this week.
Here's the plan:
1. Fabricate parts, assemble and fit as practical, corrosion protect,
then store for final assembly (make myself a 'kit').
2. Rebuild and complete engine and firewall forward parts. Static test
and tune engine at the old mans' farm in the middle of nowhere.
3. Move 'kit' to final assembly location, assemble. Move aircraft to
KMWC, finish and ground test.
4. Get inspection, get test pilot (hopefully locally), FLY!
And now, my first questions for the list:
- I'm in Milwaukee. Anyone know where I can source 6061 locally?
Menard's doesn't know what that is ;)
- I'm an EAA member, but want to join the local EAA chapter (Ch. 18).
Apparently they were the original EAA chapter and have lots of builders
as members. I checked out one of their meetings back in '98. I'm going
to be frank here - I am 33 years old now and felt a little uncomfortable
being a young whippersnapper at age 25 at that meeting. Actually didn't
feel very welcome. Will I be received a little better now that I've
matured some?
- Bending brake. I plan to build a 48" wood brake as per plans on
ch601.org. My 8' pieces can be done at a customer of mine (a
metalworking shop) or hopefully Chapter 18 has such a tool. Any use
building a wood brake or will I just disappoint myself? I don't think I
want to lug all that steel into my basement and weld down there for a
Larry-design brake.
- Going with a 12" drill press (found out from here that a 10" doesn't
cut it. Should I go with the decent Sears or a cheap one from Harbor
Freight or Home Despot? Tool experience says go with the Sears or
better. Same for a band-saw (my current saw is all-but toast).
- Oh boy. Hate to ask this here... I'm thinking Corvair power. Ordering
WW's book today. Again, I'm in Milwaukee - can someone point me in the
right direction to source this locally? Please, I've read all the
opinions. A Jabiru, Rotax or Lycoming will cost at least twice the
airframe if not more. And I like motors and have rebuilt them in the
past.
- I restored a VW Karmann Ghia and swore I would never do another
metalworking project. I'm hoping that clean aluminum will be more
enjoyable than 30-year-old rusted steel and pewter.
Thanks for all your help!
Nate Erb
CH601XL scratchbuild
Corvair powered
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
NYTerminat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL v. 701Cabin Comfort
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Mark
You have took the words right out of my mouth. You actually said it much
better than I would have.
I originally went to the Zenith factory to look at the 601XL and didn't
like
the way that you had to climb into the 601. That's just me. They showed
me the
701 and my initial reaction was it was too small (much like a toy), then
I
saw the 801 and took a test fight in it. Nick took my wife and I up for
a flight
and I immediately fell in love with the size and handling. I scheduled
the
rudder workshop for the 801 in Oct 94.
My wife and I built the rudder and was ecstatic at how easy it was( we
all
know how good the rudder draings are compared to the rest of the kit). I
went
home and had to decide whether to order the kit or not. I wanted to be
able to
fly from my own property and decided to clear land and see where I could
get
the longest strip in line with the prevailing westerly wind. I was able
to get a
1300 ft grass strip with power lines on one side and trees on the other.
I still wasn't completely convinced that the 801 was my best choice for
my
1st build. I looked again at the info pack that Zenith sent me home with
and
looked hard at the 701 as my 1st build. I felt that the 801 was perfect
for me
(was used to flying with 4 seats in Pipers and Cessnas) but it was so
slow and I
felt that I would be disappointed with that. Looking at the 701 at
roughly
1/2 the price I felt that I would loose the 2 extra seats and almost get
the
same speed. I could always build another plane at some later date if I
chose to.
I was comfortable with the decision and called Shirley in the end of
November
to place my order. I was ready to build a plane and Shirley told me that
there
was a 10-12 week lead time for the kit, but would try to get the tail
out
sooner. Received my first crate at the end of January and started
building a
CH-701 on 2/8/05. My rudder, elevator and stabilizer was done by
2/20/05 and I
had to wait for the rest of the kit. March 4th the Yellow freight
driver
dropped off the big crate with the rest of the plane.
I am now built, painted and almost ready for my DAR inspection scheduled
for
1/11/05. The building has been a hoot and loved the experience. All the
guy's
on the list have been great and very informative. THANK YOU EVERYONE!
While
most of the info I got off the list has been thru following other
peoples
questions and problems, When I have had a specific question I have
quickly gotten
an answer.
I have not had to have too many calls to Zenith (a few in the beginning
to
Nick and then a couple to Roger). They have always been quick to answer
my
questions. The drawings took a while to get used to reading and the info
is not
always where you would expect to find it, but for the most part the info
is there
if you look hard enough. The photo guide has been a big help but as some
have
mentioned don't rely on them and ALWAYS verify things with the plans. I
have
made some parts over because I didn't look ahead to the next couple of
steps
but that's all part of the building experience. I have a lot of respect
for the
scratch builders out there. I wouldn't have the patience to fabricate
every
part.
I found what adds time to the building process is when you add your own
stuff. I chose to install Larry's wing tip access doors, additional
fuselage oil
canning stiffeners, as well as the additional rear fuselage door ( a
must in my
opinon). I installed an electric flap operator and taxi, landing lights
in the
leading edge of the slats (that was fun). I also picked up some century
3
auto pilot servos from E-bay. I have them installed for roll and pitch
and
control them from my stick grip. ( no actual autopilot head yet) I call
it my "poor
mans autopilot". It should allow me to point the plane in the direction
that
I want it to go and be able to leave the stick alone.
To those who are contemplating their 1st build I highly recommend a
Zenith
kit. I found the Rudder workshop was the best way to start to immerse
yourself
into aircraft building. Zenith has been great as well as Danny and
Zaneta from
Skyshops. I bought the firewall forward package from them. They have
been very
helpful with my questions as the Czechworks drawings also leave a lot to
be
desired. They have updated their parts but not the drawings.
I didn't plan on writing this novel but I felt that those lurking out
ther
would appreciate the info.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX CH-701/912S
just total my builders log-1161.5 hrs
In a message dated 1/1/2006 7:44:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zodierocket@hsfx.ca writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Bill , this has been covered many, many times and is in the archives.
However, at 5'10 and 235lbs there is more then enough room in the 601XL
that I can even wear a large hat. The 701 typically has more headroom
and with the new bubble doors from Zenith the cabin width is a full 44"
the same as the 601XL. Fitting you is not a problem in either plane even
with a passenger of the same size. You should consider what you really
want to do with your plane. The 701 is a special breed and is a STOL
performer. IF the drastic STOL performance of a 701 is unnecessary then
go with the 601XL. Both planes offer an incredible view and the high
wing over the low wing in the view aspect seems negligible. Personal
preference and mission are the lists you should be drawing up to help in
your decision now.
Check out
http://www.frappr.com/zenith601
and
http://www.frappr.com/zenith701
Look for builders and owners in your area and plan for a visit, I have
yet to ever meet a Zenith owner who would not let me have a seat in
there plane. Zenith builders are just the cream of the crop when it come
to a group of friendly people. Plus check out Sun-N-Fun, you are also
more then Welcome to join in on the 2nd annual Webmasters BBQ being held
on Thursday evening April 6th 2006 ! for Zenith builders and owners. Did
I just let a cat out of the bag?
You can also find more information at www.ch601.org and www.ch701.com
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
Message 20
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| Subject: | builders experience |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Or as Chris Heinz has said "relax, you are not building a 747".
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug kandle
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: builders experience
--> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
I completely agree with these comments. On the wall of a Navy Captain I once
saw a plaque with the statement: "Better is the enemy of Good Enough"
Some of the changes I have seen to aircraft were to fix imaginary problems
or they were fixes to a problem that the builder couldn't figure out the
underlying cause. (For example one builder moved his radiator to the bottom
of the aircraft because he could not figure out why there was not enough air
passing through it to cool the engine when it was installed inside the
cowling).
At 07:44 AM 1/2/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brett Hanley <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
>
>
>...
>I suggest you use caution where you get your advise.
>Find someone that has built the plane and is still flying and refining
>it.
...
>Resist the compelling urge to modify. If you are a first time builder
>your best bet is to stay with the plans. Very few mods that I have
>seen make the plane fly better. Most mods just add complexity and
>weight.
>
>
>Brett Hanley
>CH 701 plans built
>San Jose, Costa Rica
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Still locking up |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Bill,
I recommended and installed the flat plate tab because I believe the tab
is less seen than the
built-in tab. Consider that both types of tab are nearly always out of
alignment with the aileron, so you
have the extra eye-catching formed trail edges looking at you and they
could as easily be snagged by a shirt
or pants. The tab is simpler, better position from which to pivot and
less effort to install. You
just round the corners a little. If the tab is by itself out of
alignment with the aileron or elevator,
no one notices. At 5 feet, it's less to see than the built-in tab and
easier to change if it needs resizing..
Just an opinion of course.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS
do not archive
bill naumuk wrote:
> * The Zenith recommended HDS flat plate tab hinges at the trailing edge
>of the aileron.
>
>
On the plus side, it has a small drag profile, and the trailing edge
hinging improves leverage.
> On the minus side, it's butt ugly, hangs out where polishing cloths,
>shirts, etc. can get caught on it, and could be responsible for adverse
>handling in turbulent conditions. You have a surface increasing aileron
>travel whether you want it or not.
>
> On the minus side, it's a pain to build, and listers report marginal
>efficiency.
> * A flat tab is aesthetically acceptable and hinges forward of the
>trailing edge.
> On the plus side, it's easy to construct, and more importantly,
>easiest to modify down the line. It also shouldn't induce negative handling
>in turbulent conditions.
> My gut feeling is that you might be able to get an
>acceptable compromise using a shorter length, longer chord (Extending from
>the trailing edge maybe 1/2") flat tab, hinged ahead of the trailing edge.
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
Sorry, I'm not the guy to ask. I scratch-built the fuselage, making and correcting
mistakes all the way, so it was all "original" construction. I also added
some extra pieces that may not have been necessary. But the gear are nice components,
and even lighter than Grove.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL/Corvair
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Bellach<mailto:601zv@ritternet.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com<mailto:601zv@ritternet.com>>
When I inquired about the Czech gear, Chip said he would not sell it, so I
decided to go with the Grove gear as it is considerably lighter than the ZAC
gear and requires less modification for installation than the composite. .
But, If the Czech gear is now available, I will reconsider, as I have not
yet ordered gear. My only concern, assuming the Czech composite is now
available, is just how much more difficult is the installation, especially
with the fuselage already essentially completed - any clues?
----- Original Message -----
From: <PAULROD36@msn.com<mailto:PAULROD36@msn.com>>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of Gravity
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com<mailto:PAULROD36@msn.com>>
>
> Kevin, I bought my composite gear (not sure it's carbon fiber) from
Czech Aircraft Works. (aircraft@czaw.cz<mailto:aircraft@czaw.cz<mailto:aircraft@czaw.cz<mailto:aircraft@czaw.cz>>) I got the
legs, saddles, wheels, brakes, tires, etc. from them. Each leg complete
weighed in at around 12.5 pounds. My first contact was with Chip Irwin,
then with Marketa Durdakova. What with the currency fluctuations, I
wouldn't know what the price is now, but it's comparable to Grove's prices.
Very nice people to work with.
>
> Paul Rodriguez
> 601XL/Corvair
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kevinbonds<mailto:kevinbonds@comcast.net<mailto:kevinbonds@comcast.net>>
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 11:21 PM
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of
Gravity
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds"
<kevinbonds@comcast.net<mailto:kevinbonds@comcast.net<mailto:kevinbonds@comcast.net<mailto:kevinbonds@comcast.net>>>
>
> Where can one purchase this carbon fiber landing gear you speak of?
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
> Nashville TN
>
> 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
>
> Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
>
>
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds>>
>
>
>
> do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com>>
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin
Pohl
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>>
> Subject: AW: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of
Gravity
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Martin Pohl"
<mpohl@pohltec.ch<mailto:mpohl@pohltec.ch<mailto:mpohl@pohltec.ch<mailto:mpohl@pohltec.ch>>>
>
> Thank you for your CG and empty weight values. I hope to also get an
empty
> weight of around 720lbs. The Czech version of the Zodiac XL has a
> carbonfiber landing gear which is 30 lbs lighter than the aluminium
gear. So
> I am still very confident...
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
> -----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
> Von:
owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com>>
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]Im Auftrag von Jack
> Russell
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Dezember 2005 16:40
> An: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>>
> Betreff: RE: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL: Your Empty weight / Center of
> Gravity
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell
<clojan@sbcglobal.net<mailto:clojan@sbcglobal.net<mailto:clojan@sbcglobalnet<mailto:clojan@sbcglobal.net>>>
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell"
>
> My empty weight is 712lbs, CG is 264.8.
>
> I'm still not painted yet, so that will add a bit.
>
> Lance sent me his weight and balance as a example and I just did mine
> yesterday. I got 740 cg of 311. I am set up about the same as Lance
but do
> have paint and a full interior. I did some examples with full tanks and
two
> people180lbs andI can only get 40 lbs luggage for a total wt of
1284lbs. The
> problem with this senario is that when the fuel goes to 0 my cg is 479
which
> is aft of the 450 limit. I may get a bigger battery for the firewall.
> I also expected my WL,WR,WN measurement to be the same as lances' but
I
> came up with a WR WL of 770 and a WN of -535 which was quite a ways off
of
> Lance's measurement. I would be interested in others.
>
>
>
> Jack Russell -Clovis CA
> 601 XL Jabiru 3300
> Progress update at:
>
http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html<http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html<http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html<http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html>>
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Message 23
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| Subject: | ENGINE ALIGNMENT |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <momanpop@marshallnet.com>
I am restoring a 601 converting it from an HDS to a HD. I have a new ~ never
installed Reductions Conversions drive where the top motor mount bolts to the
upper belt housing and the holes are not drilled. Does anyone know the skew angles
both vertical and horizontal from the centerline of the fuselage to the
centerline of the prop shaft?
I also have a question about safety of side opening canopy v.s. foreword tilting
canopy or is that just for passenger convenience?
To help keep the list from overloading please reply to MOMANPOP@MARSHALLNET.COM
off the list.
Best wishes to everyone in the new year.
Thank You
Bob Tichy.
Message 24
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--> Zenith-List message posted by:
I am looking for the aero carb to fix on subaru powered CH601HDS. It is
already a good performer but i need more control on mixture and EGT.
Anybody test it on Subaru EA81 before?
Balayez vos courriels entrants et sortants et les pices jointes et
contribuez liminer les virus destructeurs susceptibles dy tre intgrs.
maintenant profiter de tous les avantages de MSN Premium et obtenez les
deux premiers mois GRATUITS*.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re:Wing painting jig |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
Thanks Tony- Big help.
Al Young
XL
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Nav/Strobe wire routing. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net>
Orignal question:
"Can anyone tell me the rules for where to locate small new holes in wing
ribs? Is it just a matter of finding a spot with a lot of distance from
edges and other holes?"
Answer:
"This won't help you locate the holes but some builders run a piece of PVC
pipe from root to tip to make pulling future wires (adding or replacing)
easier."
More info:
There is also soft (bendable) aluminum tubing from Aircraft Spruce that is
5/8" OD and .035" wall thickness that would be alot lighter than PVC and
you can buy rubber grommets or snap bushings to fit it. You buy as many
linear feet as you need and it ships to you as a 24" daimeter coil. Not
terribly expensive and cut to length there are no splices to pull wire
through.
Ed
Message 27
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| Subject: | quick build 601 XL (long) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" <allenricks@verizon.net>
Hi Dave,
Actually, I'm just comparing the cost of the overhaul at a shop, as well as
looking at parts prices. The Rotax 912 is North of 10K to overhaul, and the
TBO is much less than the O-235. The cost per hour exclusive of
maintainance
between overhauls is about the same to a little less for the O-235.
Obviously
what happens between overhauls makes a big difference.
The overhaul cost on the Jabiru for the top at mid time and the overhaul at
TBO is still less than
either of the other two. The pistons run about 30% of the cost of the Rotax
pistons
I'm still researching the reliability (in terms of maintanance requirements)
of the
Jabiru but it seems less expensive than the other choices.
obviously the amount you fly, and the care you take makes the biggest
difference.
Allen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Austin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Not sure why you say the Rotax 912 is expensive to maintain. Mine is 11
years old, 565 hrs and all I do is change the oil and antifreeze every year.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL v. 701Cabin Comfort |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Bob, we would love to see pics and get a description of your leading edge lights.
We've been pondering how best to put a landing light on our 801.
Cheers
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
-----Original Message-----
Time: 09:00:48 PM PST US
From: NYTerminat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL v. 701Cabin Comfort
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
[snip]I installed an electric flap operator and taxi, landing lights in the
leading edge of the slats (that was fun).[snip]
Bob Spudis
N701ZX CH-701/912S
Message 29
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| Subject: | quick build 601 XL (long) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
I was out at St. Charles Flying Service finishing my Sport Pilot license
when one of their mechanics returned from "Rotax School" in Wisconsin. This
is all second or third hand so take it for what it is worth: what he heard
is that the Rotax engine will run forever but the redrive will not.
(Corvair atheists stop here)
And in my role as that annoying buzz around your head I will say that you
can build a Corvair engine (new cam, pistons, con rods, rings, bearings,
lifters, valves and seats, push rods, every gasket, rebored cylinders and a
reground & nitrided crank for less than the cost of a rebuilt certified
engine. Heck, you can buy the whole thing put together for $6,750
(www.flycorvair.com/engine.html).
One of the nice things about the engine is that you pay auto prices for
parts instead of aircraft prices. Bear in mind that many of the components
listed above are built for tricked-out motors for dune buggies that put out
far more power than the engines we build for Corvair-powered planes. The
situation is similar to Volkswagen engines for planes. It is true that
Volkswagens like the Areo Vee consist of entirely new parts of which the
only remaining part made by Volkswagen is the block. Anyway (some) people
accept the VW engine as a respectable experimental aircraft engine but think
that the Corvair engine is tainted or voodoo in someway.
All flames cheerfully ignored. We now return you to our regularly scheduled
program.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Ricks
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks"
--> <allenricks@verizon.net>
Hi Dave,
Actually, I'm just comparing the cost of the overhaul at a shop, as well as
looking at parts prices. The Rotax 912 is North of 10K to overhaul, and the
TBO is much less than the O-235. The cost per hour exclusive of
maintainance between overhauls is about the same to a little less for the
O-235.
Obviously
what happens between overhauls makes a big difference.
The overhaul cost on the Jabiru for the top at mid time and the overhaul at
TBO is still less than either of the other two. The pistons run about 30%
of the cost of the Rotax pistons I'm still researching the reliability (in
terms of maintanance requirements) of the Jabiru but it seems less expensive
than the other choices.
obviously the amount you fly, and the care you take makes the biggest
difference.
Allen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Austin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Not sure why you say the Rotax 912 is expensive to maintain. Mine is 11
years old, 565 hrs and all I do is change the oil and antifreeze every year.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 30
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
Listers, I have a somewhat in-depth problem that I would like your
suggestions on. This will take a bit of time, so skip this post right
now if you aren't interested in getting deeply involved - believe me,
I understand! (FWIW, I have also sent this inquiry to the factory
because I didn't understand the phone discussion I had with
Sebastian).
I ordered the LR tanks on my complete 601XL kit. But, before my kit
shipped, I was lucky (?) enough to pick up another builder's wing kit
because he was forced to quit his project. He was doing the auxiliary
tanks and had everything necessary for that set-up. He had not even
begun working on his wing, though, and everything was untouched.
Zenith was nice enough to deduct the wing kit from my order and just
ship me the rest - shipping later this month.
I would strongly prefer LR fuel tanks. Standard tanks are bit small
(planning Corvair engine), and I don't want to do the extra plumbing
(or, more importantly, risk forgetting to switch tanks) that comes
with the auxiliary tanks. However, his wing spar was built for the
auxiliary tanks, and I don't know how, or if, I should modify it for
the LR tanks.
Here is what I have - you can follow along on 6-W-3. I have also
posted the relevant picture at
http://websites.expercraft.com/vwkismet/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=8321
Two nose rib flanges at 1510 and 1550. One hat stiffener with the
first row of holes at 1750. No row of holes at 2010 (and, very
importantly, the solid rivets do not line up with 2010 at all - see
dashed line in picture).
If I were doing the LR tanks, there should be a hat stiffener at
1510-1550; a nose rib flange at 1750; no holes at 1790 (the second row
of holes for the existing hat stiffener); and, a row of holes at 2010
for the next nose rib.
I don't have the tools to install solid rivets, so if I drill any out,
I will need to do something else. (Sebastian mentioned AN3 bolts.)
The simplest approach that gets me the LR tanks (without having Zenith
just make me new ones) seems to be: drill out nose rib flanges at
1510/1550 and install hat stiffener (use AN3 bolts for solid rivets);
drill out inboard 1/2 of hat stiffener at 1750, leave outboard half,
install nose rib flange, use AN3 bolts for solid rivets; and install
nose rib flange near 2010 (assuming here that it is not necessary to
be exact, I could install it just shy of 2010 by drilling out top and
bottom solid rivets).
So, what do you think. Should I make changes? Any and all suggestions welcome.
Thanks, Michael Valentine
If you have any in-depth responses, please contact me off list.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Wow, this is a good one. I have a couple of other suggestions. You have
the spar that was made prior to the advent of the larger 15 gal tanks so
no provision was made for these. IF you in fact have the 4 12 gal tanks
then you can do one of two things if you are wary of the 5 way fuel
selector.
1) (which I would not recommend personally) would be to install all 4
tanks and plumb 2 3/8ths line between the inboard and outboard tanks
this would gravity feed fuel from the outboard The inboard vent would
need to be plugged and the two lines be set one low for fuel and one
high for venting between the tanks.
2) install all 4 tanks, use a low pressure pump in each wing to transfer
fuel from outboard tanks to inboard tanks and only use inboard tanks for
flight. This allows you to only fill the outboard tanks when you have
both useful load in which to carry the extra fuel and a need to do so.
IT does add to the cost with two more pumps and fuel gauges but it is a
simplicity that isn't going to make your big fan go quite if it doesn't
work. You will never depend on them, as they are only there for
convenience.
I personally would not hesitate to change the spar, but I have all the
tools and being a plans builder I also have intimate knowledge and
sklill on Zenith spars. For someone who does not have the skill they
would be a costly place to learn. Also I couldn't hide the holes in my
nose skin if I switched to the larger tanks. So I have 4 12 gal in my
wings.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Valentine
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine
<mgvalentine@gmail.com>
Listers, I have a somewhat in-depth problem that I would like your
suggestions on. This will take a bit of time, so skip this post right
now if you aren't interested in getting deeply involved - believe me,
I understand! (FWIW, I have also sent this inquiry to the factory
because I didn't understand the phone discussion I had with
Sebastian).
I ordered the LR tanks on my complete 601XL kit. But, before my kit
shipped, I was lucky (?) enough to pick up another builder's wing kit
because he was forced to quit his project. He was doing the auxiliary
tanks and had everything necessary for that set-up. He had not even
begun working on his wing, though, and everything was untouched.
Zenith was nice enough to deduct the wing kit from my order and just
ship me the rest - shipping later this month.
I would strongly prefer LR fuel tanks. Standard tanks are bit small
(planning Corvair engine), and I don't want to do the extra plumbing
(or, more importantly, risk forgetting to switch tanks) that comes
with the auxiliary tanks. However, his wing spar was built for the
auxiliary tanks, and I don't know how, or if, I should modify it for
the LR tanks.
Here is what I have - you can follow along on 6-W-3. I have also
posted the relevant picture at
http://websites.expercraft.com/vwkismet/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=832
1
Two nose rib flanges at 1510 and 1550. One hat stiffener with the
first row of holes at 1750. No row of holes at 2010 (and, very
importantly, the solid rivets do not line up with 2010 at all - see
dashed line in picture).
If I were doing the LR tanks, there should be a hat stiffener at
1510-1550; a nose rib flange at 1750; no holes at 1790 (the second row
of holes for the existing hat stiffener); and, a row of holes at 2010
for the next nose rib.
I don't have the tools to install solid rivets, so if I drill any out,
I will need to do something else. (Sebastian mentioned AN3 bolts.)
The simplest approach that gets me the LR tanks (without having Zenith
just make me new ones) seems to be: drill out nose rib flanges at
1510/1550 and install hat stiffener (use AN3 bolts for solid rivets);
drill out inboard 1/2 of hat stiffener at 1750, leave outboard half,
install nose rib flange, use AN3 bolts for solid rivets; and install
nose rib flange near 2010 (assuming here that it is not necessary to
be exact, I could install it just shy of 2010 by drilling out top and
bottom solid rivets).
So, what do you think. Should I make changes? Any and all suggestions
welcome.
Thanks, Michael Valentine
If you have any in-depth responses, please contact me off list.
--
1/2/2006
--
1/2/2006
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Based on my experience, if you ever get Sebastian on the phone the
only appropriate question to ask is: Is Nick there?
Paul
XL wings
do not archive or quote in the vicinity of Mexico, MO
At 06:49 PM 1/2/2006, you wrote:
>(FWIW, I have also sent this inquiry to the factory
>because I didn't understand the phone discussion I had with
>Sebastian).
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 33
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| Subject: | Scapbuilding help |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
I ordered some Nylon from Aircraft Spruce. The catalog didn't specify resin
content, but it came in as Nylon 42. The plans call for "Nylon 66" in some
places and "plastic" in others (such as elevator fairlead on the Front HT
Frame). Anyone have any thoughts on whether or not I should use it?
Also, tonight I started checking to see if I had the correct size solid
rivets for the Center Spar. Where the plans call for AN-470-AD-5-9 (which is
.5625") these seem to be too long. Doing the math, a 5/32 diameter rivet is
.156" and 1.5 times is .234" for MIN and MAX (I am interpreting the 1.5D
supplied in AC43.13-1b as MAX diameter). My spar cap and web measure .287"
Subtract that from .5625 and I get .278 which is outside the range of
between .156" and .234". Looks like I need to order some AN-470-AD-5-8's
instead. Anyone else have this issue? Or am I missing something.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: DAR inspection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Cy
Thank you for your research. I think I found out why my DAR said I needed a
conditional inspection. When I first spoke with him we chatted for a little
while and he mentioned that he did quite a few DAR inspections overseas for
Mission Aviation Fellowship.
Last night I was pouring through AC 20-27F and I found a paragraph that I
believe my DAR was referring to. It under section 15-a-2 whic covers "Building
and certifying an Amateur-built aircraft built outside the United States and
purchased by a U.S. citizen" Since he has done several overseas inspections this
would have applied. I will have to call him and confirm that this will not be
necessary for my inspection.
It makes me feel a little better that he's not just trying to get one over on
me.
Thanks again
Bob Spudis
do not archive
In a message dated 1/2/2006 9:50:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cgalley@qcbc.org writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
From EAA A&P, IA and DAR. If you continue to have this impasse, ask your
DAR to show you his requirement in FAA Order 8130.2F. After all the reason
you are paying the DAR is for this initial inspection and airworthiness
release for the testing phase.
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Norris" <jnorris@eaa.org>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: DAR inspection
> Cy,
>
> There's no requirement for an A&P to do an inspection before the
> airworthiness certificate is issued. If it's an amateur-built aircraft,
> he OWNER must sign a statement that the aircraft is in a condition for
> safe operation (basically the same statement that is used for a condition
> inspection) before the DAR will issue the airworthiness certificate. The
> owner does not need any sort of FAA certificate in order to make this
> statement.
>
> This is all covered in FAA Order 8130.2F, in the section on amateur-built
> aircraft. It specifically states that there is NO need for an A&P to do
> any inspection or make any sign-offs before the airworthiness inspection
> is conducted by the FAA. I'd suggest the DAR look at his order and follow
> it's guidance.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Joe
Message 35
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Charles Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
test
do not archive
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
Michael,
I do not know where you are located, but chances are
good that there is an EAA chapter near you. This is
the kind of thing that could be taken care of rather
quickly by making some local contacts. Someone is
bound to have the riveting tools to do this correctly.
Go to eaa.org and locate a chapter near you.
Craig Moore
A&P and 701 builder wannabe
--- Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine
> <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
>
> Listers, I have a somewhat in-depth problem that I
> would like your
> suggestions on. This will take a bit of time, so
> skip this post right
> now if you aren't interested in getting deeply
> involved - believe me,
snip
do not archive
__________________________________
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Nav/Strobe wire routing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
We used it our 701 and will do the same when we build the wings of our 601 XL...
We used a PVC tube that we hold with tie wraps to the edge of the rib holes.
I still dont know what route we will use, this depends on gas tanks and other
things like the storage boxes (?), etc. but this tube is the best idea I have
done for position lights and strobe cables, off course, learned from anther
builder. Probably Binguilis...
Saludos
Gary Gower
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
This won't help you locate the holes but some builders run a piece of PVC
pipe from root to tip to make pulling future wires (adding or replacing)
easier.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Subject: Zenith-List: Nav/Strobe wire routing.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
-->
I would like to drill holes in the rear ribs of my XL to route the wiring
for nav/strobe lights. My problem is I don't know where to locate the
holes.
Can anyone tell me the rules for where to locate small new holes in wing
ribs? Is it just a matter of finding a spot with a lot of distance from
edges and other holes?
Thanks,
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.
Message 38
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems |
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:30:36 +0100 (\214rodkowoeuropejs...
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "BIANCO Tadeusz Forgacz" <info@bianco.pl>
Plumbing seems to be better idea. If You install pumps, they will brake
down running without fuel - right, or You will have to install switch (about
which You have to remember) and You get extra weight, and have to make
electrical installation for pumps.
Much simple much better.
According to fuel tanks - I have a question.
I decided to build integrated fuel tanks on my HD, but not 100%sure is the
good idea. What is Your opinion Listers?
Tadeusz Forgacz
601HD - started
-------Original Message-------
From: Zodie Rocket
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank & Wing Spar Problems
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Wow, this is a good one. I have a couple of other suggestions. You have
the spar that was made prior to the advent of the larger 15 gal tanks so
no provision was made for these. IF you in fact have the 4 12 gal tanks
then you can do one of two things if you are wary of the 5 way fuel
selector.
1) (which I would not recommend personally) would be to install all 4
tanks and plumb 2 3/8ths line between the inboard and outboard tanks
this would gravity feed fuel from the outboard The inboard vent would
need to be plugged and the two lines be set one low for fuel and one
high for venting between the tanks.
2) install all 4 tanks, use a low pressure pump in each wing to transfer
fuel from outboard tanks to inboard tanks and only use inboard tanks for
flight. This allows you to only fill the outboard tanks when you have
both useful load in which to carry the extra fuel and a need to do so.
IT does add to the cost with two more pumps and fuel gauges but it is a
simplicity that isn't going to make your big fan go quite if it doesn't
work. You will never depend on them, as they are only there for
convenience.
I personally would not hesitate to change the spar, but I have all the
tools and being a plans builder I also have intimate knowledge and
sklill on Zenith spars. For someone who does not have the skill they
would be a costly place to learn. Also I couldn't hide the holes in my
nose skin if I switched to the larger tanks. So I have 4 12 gal in my
wings.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
Message 39
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| Subject: | quick build 601 XL (long) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
That is a great idea!!!! a series of compare flights of the two airplanes, I
am sure there will be no looser, just diferent flying charateristics where all
of us can chose the engine from.
Hope some writer from a magazine (Kiplanes, Sport Aviation or Plane and Pilot)
reads this posts and works on the idea...
Now I also have another problem in our desision, betwen the Jab and Corvair:
Our strips altitudes where we normally fly (5,000 to 7,000 ft ASL)...
Here in our clubs, there are mostly R 912S a few 912 (80 HP), and only one Jabiru
engine, is a 2200 (4 cil) installed in a Sky Ranger in an close by club.
This engine performes perfect at this altitudes and is perfect for the airplane
were is installed.
Hope hear soon also how the Jab 3300 and the Corvair perform at high altitude
airstrips (over 5,000 ft ASL) in a 601 XL, before it time for us to make a engine
desision...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
(Snip)
We need to get a 601XL/3300 next to a 601XL/Corvair to compare weight and
performance.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Ricks
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks"
-->
Craig,
Not sure yet. I'm leaning towards the Jabiru. It seems to be the best fit.
Really expensive. The Rotax is expensive to buy AND expensive to maintain.
The Lycoming O-235 is expensive to buy and heavy.
I want something very reliable that has a well sorted install kit so the
auto conversion are out for me. I know there is a contengency of Corvair
proponents, but the engine is a little on the heavy side, and if I were
going heavy I'd lean towards a rebuilt O-235 instead.
The Jabiru is installed in the factory demo plane, and at 800+ hours it has
more total time than any single install of most of the auto engines have.
The Jabiru is finally getting enough of an install base that I think it will
be around for a while.
That being said, I will wait until the very last minute to make a choice on
engine and avionics, as things seem to be changing at a rapid pace.
In avionics the Dynon with the big screen and the engine guages in it looks
pretty good. Wonder what we'll get a year from now?
Allen
Another big question is what engine you will choose.
-- Craig
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