---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/09/06: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:31 AM - Re: Take-off roll reality check... (Ron Crook) 2. 06:08 AM - Re: Take-off roll reality check... (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 07:14 AM - Re: Take-off roll reality check... (David X) 4. 07:30 AM - Re: Take-off roll reality check... (doug kandle) 5. 07:52 AM - Re: Take-off roll reality check... (Ron Crook) 6. 08:00 AM - Re: Take-off roll reality check...Take-off roll reality check... (Tommy Walker) 7. 11:14 AM - Re: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. (Charles D) 8. 11:35 AM - Right seat flying ? (Maarten Versteeg) 9. 11:53 AM - Re: Right seat flying ? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 12:28 PM - Re: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. () 11. 02:15 PM - Re: Right seat flying ? (Bryan Martin) 12. 02:34 PM - Re: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. (Trevor Page) 13. 02:47 PM - flying the 701 (Jeff Small) 14. 03:19 PM - Re: Right seat flying ? (Paul Mulwitz) 15. 06:43 PM - Re: Right seat flying ? (Gary Gower) 16. 07:01 PM - All New BBS Interface For Matronics List Forums! (Matt Dralle) 17. 08:42 PM - Re: Take-off roll reality check... (David X) 18. 09:20 PM - Re: 601 HDS for sale (Fred Kirkland) 19. 09:40 PM - Re: Fuel sender, VW Beetle... (NYTerminat@aol.com) 20. 10:21 PM - Re: Take-off roll reality check. (Gary Gower) 21. 10:26 PM - Re: Drill stop (flybumtoo) 22. 10:59 PM - Re: Right seat flying ? (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:53 AM PST US From: "Ron Crook" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Crook" Just curious do u fly a 701? Or are u a math teacher?Every 701 is different they are not alike we have 5 of them and they all fly at different speeds and take off some sooner then others and land according to the pilots experience.....You need to flys and know your limitations,,,Lets be honest, the best is no trees or wires on either end and 2000 ft of runway but thats not what the plane is about if u look in the archives u will see a couple of guys who have almost met disaster taking off even with full flaps and stalled? If u want to be safe don t push the plane to its limits when the pilots limits can t match the plane....Like the zenith site says it takes alot of practice and sometimes new gear from bending to perfect the stol caracteristics of the 701 expecially at full gross....Regards Ron >From: "David X" >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check... >Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:06:17 -0500 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" > >This is an interesting problem, and I hope you don't mind the long answer >... but I would hate to see a fellow pilot get hurt or killed ... so read >on. Don't let your desires over-ride your common sense. That might get you >divorced in case of marriage, but it will kill you in the case of >airplanes. > >A quick look at the specs on Zenair's site for the CH701: >http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-perf.html > >Assumptions: >============ >Let's assume you're going to be attempting takeoff at maximum gross weight. >The web site quotes 38 as the stall speed with "dual" ... but it's not >clear >if that's maximum gross or not. For the purposes of discussion, let's use >38 >as Vso. > >The best rate of climb (Vy) of 1000 FPM quoted on the site probably doesn't >account for the worst case density altitude and humidity either. Let's >assume Vy is 1.5 times Vso - or 57 MPH at 900 FPM. That's 84 feet per >second >(FPS) horizontally for every 15 FPS vertically. > >The best rate of climb (Vy) is also not the same as best angle of climb >(Vx). On a short runway, you'll definitely want to use Vx; which means the >rate of climb is going to be less than Vy! Lets assume Vx is 1.4 times Vso >- >or 54 MPH at 850 FPM. That's 80 FPS horizontally and 14 FPS vertically. > >The web site indicates you'll need about 115 feet for take-off roll at max >gross weight, presumably on a hard runway surface. Let's assume a 50% >increase in rolling distance for wet/soft/high grass and low density air >due >to high temperature and humidity ... so your take-off roll will be about >170 >feet. > >The web site indicates a landing roll of 140 feet, presumably on a hard >runway surface. Let's assume landing roll on grass is 25% longer because >you >don't want to be too aggressive with the brakes on a grass surface. That >puts landing roll at 175 feet. > >You'll want to clear the trees by at least 50 feet, so you need to be 80 >AGL >at the end of the runway. Runway length is 500 feet. > >Takeoff: >======== >You'll need a little less than 6 seconds (80 feet AGL divided by 14 FPS >vertical) after liftoff to clear the trees by 50 feet. At 80 FPS >(horizontal) you'll use up another 450 feet of runway in that time to clear >the trees by 50 feet. Add that to the 170 feet of ground roll for a total >of >620 feet. You're 120 feet short. In fact, with a 500 foot runway you only >have about 4 seconds of runway left after take-off; which would put you >only >25 feet above the trees at the end of the runway. That's less than a wing >span from disaster or death. So, technically, your 500 foot runway would >work for takeoff so long as everything went well and you don't mind >skimming >trees on occasion. > >Aborted takeoff: >================ >Let's say things don't go as planned: You get off or are about to get off >the ground and things just don't seem right. Perhaps you forgot to put the >flaps in the right position or the carb heat was on or the tires are >under-inflated or the grass is wet/soft/tall etc. Maybe a suicidal deer >jumped on the runway. > >You'll need perhaps 175 feet to stop if your wheels are on the ground at >the >time you abort. If you abort before liftoff, you'll need 345 feet >(170+175), >leaving 165 feet to spare. > >Let's say you lift off before aborting. You're traveling at about 80 FPS, >so >you'll have about 2 seconds of in-the-air time on an abort. How long will >it >take you make an abort decision once airborne? There is really no margin >for >error once you are off the ground - perhaps 1 second to decide to abort >once >airborne ... because if you climbed for 1 second, you'll presumably descend >for 1 second before back to mother earth. > >Landing: >======== >Approach is typically done at best glide speed for safety. Let's assume >best >glide is the same as Vy - or 84 FPS horizontally - and you're a minimum of >50 feet above the trees at the approach end of the runway. You could use up >as much as 450 feet of the runway on approach while descending 80 AGL and >bleeding off your air speed during the flare etc. High-lift planes tend to >have long flares. Add another 175 feet of ground roll to stop for a total >of >625 feet. You're 125 feet short. Ok, maybe you can come in steep and slow >and closer to the trees. Maybe you can force it on the ground sooner and >brake for longer. Would 500 feet be enough? I don't know, but it would be >very close. > >Aborted landing: >================ >Let's say things don't go as planned again and you have to abort the >landing, perhaps even a few feet off the ground. It's that damned suicidal >deer again! You already know that you can barely make it above the trees on >take-off after a 170 ground roll, so it follows that you can only abort the >landing in the first 170 feet of runway. > >Unfortunately, that deer did his math and knows that if he pops out >anywhere >on the last half of the runway, you'll either have to kill him or kill >yourself (and passenger) on a go-around attempt. > >Conclusion: >=========== >You need at least 650 feet if everything goes well, but 1000 feet if they >don't. You need an additional 5 acres. > > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft SmartScreen Technology Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:00 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I am surprised nobody has mentioned AOA or LRI device use to minimize take off and landing distances for the 701. Is anyone using these devices on a 701? What results? Paul XL wings do not archive At 05:29 AM 1/9/2006, you wrote: >Just curious do u fly a 701? Or are u a math teacher?Every 701 is different >they are not alike we have 5 of them and they all fly at different speeds >and take off some sooner then others and land according to the pilots >experience.....You need to flys and know your limitations,,,Lets be honest, >the best is no trees or wires on either end and 2000 ft of runway but thats >not what the plane is about if u look in the archives u will see a couple of >guys who have almost met disaster taking off even with full flaps and >stalled? If u want to be safe don t push the plane to its limits when the >pilots limits can t match the plane....Like the zenith site says it takes >alot of practice and sometimes new gear from bending to perfect the stol >caracteristics of the 701 expecially at full gross....Regards Ron ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:35 AM PST US From: "David X" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" > Out of curiosity what sort of strip do you usually operate your 701 out of? Dave, I fly a CH601 and a CH2000, but the principal applies to any aircraft. It's not just what the aircraft and pilot can do when everything goes right ... think about the contingencies ... There were a number of antidotal accounts in the list about what the 701 could do. I've seen it operate. It's an impressive aircraft in the right hands. However, don't bet your own life on antidotal accounts. I think the best advice was to get some training or a demo to see what could be done. Tell them what you want to do at your proposed field, then have them go through a few simulations, like aborted landings and take-offs. Consider worst case scenario, because it will happen eventually. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:12 AM PST US From: doug kandle Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Take-off roll reality check... --> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle A 500' runway with trees at one end is a one-way strip in my opinion. A 500' strip with trees at both ends is no runway at all. I wouldn't make the strip longer, I would just try to give it a clear approach from at least one end. If you have a 50' tree that must be flown over on approach, then by definition the runway can't start within 250' or so of the obstruction. To my way of thinking, the runway starts at the point where it is reasonable to begin the flare. As for aborted landings: several mountain flying instructors around here teach that you should remove the concept of aborted landings from your mind. You can abort the approach, but not the landing. We kill more pilots here during aborted landings than just about any other phase of the flight (the part 135 guys usually meet their end due to weather, but the flat landers usually buy the farm while attempting a go around). As for the deer (moose, elk, mule). Better to bend metal when almost stopped than hit something at full power. Consider planning to ground loop the plane in this event. > >You'll want to clear the trees by at least 50 feet, so you need to be 80 > >AGL > >at the end of the runway. Runway length is 500 feet. > > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE Doug Kandle CH701 Boise ID Rudder & Horiz. Stab. done Working on 2nd Wing Jabiru 2200 From complete kit ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:13 AM PST US From: "Ron Crook" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Crook" I fly a 701 out of a 1800 ft ,but land and then taxi to the 500 ft mark to taxi off the grass strip.you can fly the plane in at 50 mph or drop it in and stop with a stall 1 ft above the field and come to a stop in 100 ft.........there is no substitute for practice and build your confidence you will know your limitations.How many pilots have died trying to return to the field on takeoff?Yet they hear about others... and have been told time and time again to point down and land ahead. Go for a flight with someone who has the plane, and really knows how to use the stol performance and see how it performs and you will see if it is the right plane for u or not?I have bent the spring learning how to perform this with a zenith instructor so I know personally how fast it can drop .....just like a helicopter..Just always be ready for the unexpected...there is a point where u will be committed and u have to follow through even on takeoff....Regards Ron PS ....Im not an expert just had a bit of experience and seen some of the problems u can run into with this plane........ 250 hrs .1 bent spring and because Im using the old style, Had a wheel fork break ( had a hairline crack between the bolt holes and slid along the grass with no damage to the pro;p or the plane ..some luck as well).Regards Ron >From: "David X" >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check... >Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:12:32 -0500 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" > > > > Out of curiosity what sort of strip do you usually operate your 701 out >of? > >Dave, > >I fly a CH601 and a CH2000, but the principal applies to any aircraft. It's >not just what the aircraft and pilot can do when everything goes right ... >think about the contingencies ... > >There were a number of antidotal accounts in the list about what the 701 >could do. I've seen it operate. It's an impressive aircraft in the right >hands. However, don't bet your own life on antidotal accounts. > >I think the best advice was to get some training or a demo to see what >could >be done. Tell them what you want to do at your proposed field, then have >them go through a few simulations, like aborted landings and take-offs. >Consider worst case scenario, because it will happen eventually. > > Don't just Search. Find! http://search.sympatico.msn.ca/default.aspx The new ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:02 AM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check...Take-off roll reality check... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" I've read the following description of flying the 701 several time and the guy seems to know what he's talking about regards flying the 701 out of short sites: http://www.acomodata.com/zenair701/index.htm Tommy Walker in Alabama Experience is a stern teacher, it gives you the test, THEN teaches you the lesson. dO nOt ArChIvE ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:24 AM PST US From: "Charles D" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Charles D" Hi all, I may be wrong, but .... in my experience, the 3W 12V lamp is to limit the field current to the alternator. I don't think it would be wise to replace it with an LED. cheers, Charles Davis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fothergill" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill > > Hi: > My opinon. Forget the lamp. Install an ammeter and a voltmeter. Then you > will have a clue as to what is happening. > Mike > > > george may wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" > > > > A question for those flying behind the Rotax 912. The documentation > > suggests > > the use of a 3 watt 12 volt indicator lamp to be tied across the L & C > > terminals > > of the regulator to indicate whether or not the charging circuit is working. > > 1) Can an LED be substituted for the suggested lamp? And if yes, > > what terminal does the > > plus lead of the LED get tie to. > > > > Thanks > > George May > > 601XL 912S > > > > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:51 AM PST US From: Maarten Versteeg Subject: Zenith-List: Right seat flying ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg Hello List, I am still getting ready to build a XL, reading list and archive but there is so much information on the list to digest. Hopefully I can start building somewhere this spring. I was recently offered a ride (thanks) and the 601xl flies great, the center stick felt very comfortable and the view was beautiful, in short I like the 601xl. A question concerning the control; I am used to write ATC info and other things down. If I would be flying in the left seat that would be hard (unless I have an autopilot). I like the center stick both from a simplicity point of view and control feels nice. Any thoughts about setting up the panel and pedals for right seat flying, or is this a silly thought. It would allow the pilot to control the plane left handed and the right hand would be free to control radio's and write ATC calls. Cockpit view is so good that flying left or right patterns wouldn't make much of a difference, any other concerns ? Regards, Maarten ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Right seat flying ? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" You could certinly set it up for right seat flying no problem...Of course most patterns are left and with a low wing plane you do not get quite the visibilty but its not a big deal I don't think. Like you I learned to fly control wheel in the left hand...I instantly changed to stick in the righ no problem...Now with the RV I have to change back again and I'm very nervous about going the other way...:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Maarten Versteeg Subject: Zenith-List: Right seat flying ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg --> Hello List, I am still getting ready to build a XL, reading list and archive but there is so much information on the list to digest. Hopefully I can start building somewhere this spring. I was recently offered a ride (thanks) and the 601xl flies great, the center stick felt very comfortable and the view was beautiful, in short I like the 601xl. A question concerning the control; I am used to write ATC info and other things down. If I would be flying in the left seat that would be hard (unless I have an autopilot). I like the center stick both from a simplicity point of view and control feels nice. Any thoughts about setting up the panel and pedals for right seat flying, or is this a silly thought. It would allow the pilot to control the plane left handed and the right hand would be free to control radio's and write ATC calls. Cockpit view is so good that flying left or right patterns wouldn't make much of a difference, any other concerns ? Regards, Maarten ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:20 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Charles This might be true for older conventional generators, but the Rotax generator is permanent magnet and does not have a field current. But you are right, I found that a auto bulb was a better indicator than a LED during bench testing of a rectifier regulator. Perhaps by loading the L line to +12V with a resistor connected in parallell with a LED with its own separate serial resistor might do the trick. rgrds Max > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of > ext Charles > D > Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:06 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Charles D" > > > Hi all, > I may be wrong, but .... > in my experience, the 3W 12V lamp is to limit the field current to the > alternator. I don't think it would be wise to replace it with an LED. > > cheers, Charles Davis ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Right seat flying ? From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin There's a guy with an HDS based at a nearby airport that built his plane to be flown from the right seat. It can be done and it probably won't make much difference in flyability. In any case, I find it's not too difficult to switch hands and fly with my left hand on the stick while writing with my right or reaching for controls that are out of reach of my left hand. Two fingers on the stick is all it takes to keep it straight and level. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. on 1/9/06 2:32 PM, Maarten Versteeg at maarten.versteeg@swri.org wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg > > > Hello List, > > A question concerning the control; I am used to write ATC > info and other things down. If I would be flying in the left > seat that would be hard (unless I have an autopilot). I like > the center stick both from a simplicity point of view and > control feels nice. > Any thoughts about setting up the panel and pedals for right > seat flying, ... > > Regards, > Maarten > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:21 PM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page Putting in resistor for an LED is absolutely required. There are no filament bulbs in my panel at all, everything is LED on my 601HD. I have then on every switch, this way I know at a visual glance if a fuse has blown. Trev Page C-IDUS 601HD R912 On Jan 9, 2006, at 3:23 PM, wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Charles > > This might be true for older conventional generators, > but the Rotax generator is permanent magnet and does > not have a field current. But you are right, I found > that a auto bulb was a better indicator than a LED > during bench testing of a rectifier regulator. Perhaps > by loading the L line to +12V with a resistor connected > in parallell with a LED with its own separate serial > resistor might do the trick. > > rgrds > Max > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of >> ext Charles >> D >> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:06 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 Alternator Inciator. >> >> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Charles D" >> >> >> Hi all, >> I may be wrong, but .... >> in my experience, the 3W 12V lamp is to limit the field current to >> the >> alternator. I don't think it would be wise to replace it with an LED. >> >> cheers, Charles Davis > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:11 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: flying the 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" Once again for the newbies: Best flying advice for the "thinking about the 701" bunch. http://www.acomodata.com/zenair701/flying.htm Build it, you'll love it...jeff ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:09 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Right seat flying ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Why not just trim it up and let it fly itself? Paul XL wings do not archive At 11:32 AM 1/9/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg > > >Hello List, > >Any thoughts about setting up the panel and pedals for right >seat flying, or is this a silly thought. It would allow the >pilot to control the plane left handed and the right hand >would be free to control radio's and write ATC calls. Cockpit >view is so good that flying left or right patterns wouldn't >make much of a difference, any other concerns ? > >Regards, > Maarten - ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:07 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Right seat flying ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower How soon you forgot how to drive (as a teenager) with a girlfriend... I think is easier to write a little note in a plane,... I am sure... :-) :-) Saludos Gary Gower I miss my old VW... ;-) Do not archive!!! Paul Mulwitz wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Why not just trim it up and let it fly itself? Paul XL wings do not archive At 11:32 AM 1/9/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg > > >Hello List, > >Any thoughts about setting up the panel and pedals for right >seat flying, or is this a silly thought. It would allow the >pilot to control the plane left handed and the right hand >would be free to control radio's and write ATC calls. Cockpit >view is so good that flying left or right patterns wouldn't >make much of a difference, any other concerns ? > >Regards, > Maarten --------------------------------- Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:28 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: All New BBS Interface For Matronics List Forums! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, I'm very proud to announce a completely new BBS interface is now available for all of the Email Lists at Matronics! This is a full-featured system that allows for viewing, posting, attachments, polls - the works. But the best part is that it is *completely* integrated with all of the existing email tools currently available at Matronics! What this means at the most basic level is that, if you post a message to List from Email in the traditional way, it will show up on the BBS system *and* get distributed to everyone currently subscribed to the Email List. By the same token, if you are on the BBS and post a message to a given List-Forum, the message will not only show up on the BBS, but also be distributed to everyone on the Email List!! It is really a very nice implementation and I am very pleased with its operation. All of the tools you have come to know and love such as the List Search Engine and List Browse and Download will still be available and contain all of the latest posts. Think of the new BBS interface as just another method of accessing the all of the Lists. You can use the BBS to view all of the latest posts without having to do anything except use your browser to surf over to the site. You can view and look at all of the various List's posts. If you want to post a new message or reply to an existing message from the BBS, you will have to Register on the BBS. This is a *very* simple process and will only take a couple of minutes. There is a small icon in the upper righthand side of the main BBS page labeled "Register" to get you started. I strongly recommend that you use the exact *same* email address you are subscribed to the Email Lists with when registering on the BBS. Also, while not an absolute requirement, I would really appreciate it if people would use their full name when choosing their Username on the BBS (for example "Matt Dralle"). This just makes it easier for everyone to know who's posting. Also, I have enabled the ability to upload a small user picture with your profile called an "avatar". Please use a *real* picture of yourself *with* your cloths on! Thank you! Maximum size of the bitmap is 120x120. You can either be subscribed to the BBS, or any number of Email Lists, or both. Registering on the BBS will allow you to email directly to all of the various Lists. However, to receive direct List Email, you will need to be *subscribed* to the various Lists as you have in the past. No changes here in operation. I have added numerous links on the BBS pointing to the Email List subscription page. I've had the BBS connected to the Lists for about a week now, so its already loaded up with a fair number of messages. You can post photos and other documents directly to the BBS and links to them will appear in the List Email distributions. Also, when any messages posted to the BBS are viewed in the List Email distribution, there will be a URL link at the bottom of the message pointing back to the BBS. And here's what you've been waiting for -- the main URL for the new Matronics Email List BBS is: http://forums.matronics.com Please surf on over, Register, and have a great time! I think this will be the dawn of a whole new era for the Lists at Matronics! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:28 PM PST US From: "David X" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" > Or are u a math teacher? Any safe pilot will add to the minimums some margin for pilot error and unforeseen events. The approach I outlined is a tried and true way to thumb-nail a reality check . so I was required to demonstrate using a POH before being granted a pilot's license. Ok, so I got Vso, Vx and Vy wrong, but anyone with a 6th grade education can redo the math . in case you were wondering. Some people like living on the edge . but the gentleman asked for opinions from the peanut gallery . so I suggested he think about adding a healthy margin for error so he can continue to enjoy that fine wife, faithful dog, hard earned house and beautiful 5 acres of tall trees. There are obviously going to be differences in opinion. On the other hand, if my novice opinion prompted another to reply in more useful terms, even if it were to insult me . then the gentleman has all the more opinion to weigh :) The article linked to previously ( http://www.acomodata.com/zenair701/flying.htm ) was a good read. There are some useful quotes there about margin of error: "the speed will bleed amazingly quickly. This is particularly pronounced when approaching with full flap, (30 deg.) Early power reduction and speed decay can result in loss of elevator authority." Sounds like potential trouble if too close to the trees during a power loss. But, leaving more margin over the trees also means a longer runway is required. "any strip with a fence at each end less than 200 m long requires the pilot to be well versed with the STOL capabilities of the 701" So, 200 meters is 156 feet longer than the gentleman's proposed field. I recall that I told him he was 120 feet too short based on a thumbnail calculation. "I believe it's absolute minimum length, in still air, fenced at both ends, level, at sea level and moderate temperatures is 100m with no margin for error" That's 328 feet, and I doubt the "fence" is 30 feet tall. I recall that I told the gentlemen 345 was the absolute minimum landing distance based on a thumbnail calculation. "if you do attempt continued climb at this low speed and high body angle and then suffer an engine failure below 100' agl, [then] recovery is not possible before hitting the ground." So, you need more runway to pick up speed in ground affect so not to be forced to climb at 30 knots, and you need more runway incase of an engine failure. "A low experience pilot wanting to buy a 701 to operate a really short field on the strength of the advertised figures could be in for disappointment." I think that sums it up nicely. Math is your friend. Don't be afraid of it. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:11 PM PST US From: "Fred Kirkland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 HDS for sale --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred Kirkland" It's been suggested that I provide more information about my kit. It is a complete kit and includes everything to finish it except the avionics and essential instruments, i.e. I don't have the altimeter, compass, or skid ball. All engine instruments are included. I have the cowling, radiator, motor mount, and so forth. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:20 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel sender, VW Beetle... --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Thank to all that tried to help out in finding the sender for my 701. Could not find it locally through any auto parts stores or VW dealers. I wound up ordering it online through Don's Sport Vehicle Sales (www.egauges.com) I overnited it and Lord willing I will get it tomorrow and have enough time to get it installed before Wednesday. Thanks again Bob Spudis CH-701/912S ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:05 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Take-off roll reality check. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower David, you are right, lets take an example of driving a modern car with power asisted, vented disc, anti block brakes... Any brand. and at every light you get there at 50 mph and stop hard at the last minute a foot away of the front car bumper, just because of your great braking power... One day you might miss or can fail and you are in big trouble. But if you drive carefully (normaly for that car) and sudenly another driver in the intersection misses the red light... You have more chances to stop and avoid with that car than driving (at the same speed) a 1950 car with drum brakes and without power asistance. This simple. The way I see our 701 is also simple: Takes off and lands near as an ultralight and cruises almost as a light plane (Sport in USA). ( 95 mph 912S @ 5,1000 rpm ). Is like having two airplanes in one. The lower the speed you are able to land safely, the more chances you have to make corrections, things happen at a lower pace and give you a little more chance... Also the cabin is more confortable and silent than most ultralights... Yes, I enjoy flying the bush pilot type, This is why we choose the 701, first place. We have bush pilot friend (and my Instructor) that once in a while "needs" a copilot, I enjoy every flight, but I admit, not beeing ready yet in our 701... Saludos Gary Gower Do not archive. David X wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" > Or are u a math teacher? Any safe pilot will add to the minimums some margin for pilot error and unforeseen events. The approach I outlined is a tried and true way to thumb-nail a reality check . so I was required to demonstrate using a POH before being granted a pilot's license. Ok, so I got Vso, Vx and Vy wrong, but anyone with a 6th grade education can redo the math . in case you were wondering. Some people like living on the edge . but the gentleman asked for opinions from the peanut gallery . so I suggested he think about adding a healthy margin for error so he can continue to enjoy that fine wife, faithful dog, hard earned house and beautiful 5 acres of tall trees. There are obviously going to be differences in opinion. On the other hand, if my novice opinion prompted another to reply in more useful terms, even if it were to insult me . then the gentleman has all the more opinion to weigh :) The article linked to previously ( http://www.acomodata.com/zenair701/flying.htm ) was a good read. There are some useful quotes there about margin of error: "the speed will bleed amazingly quickly. This is particularly pronounced when approaching with full flap, (30 deg.) Early power reduction and speed decay can result in loss of elevator authority." Sounds like potential trouble if too close to the trees during a power loss. But, leaving more margin over the trees also means a longer runway is required. "any strip with a fence at each end less than 200 m long requires the pilot to be well versed with the STOL capabilities of the 701" So, 200 meters is 156 feet longer than the gentleman's proposed field. I recall that I told him he was 120 feet too short based on a thumbnail calculation. "I believe it's absolute minimum length, in still air, fenced at both ends, level, at sea level and moderate temperatures is 100m with no margin for error" That's 328 feet, and I doubt the "fence" is 30 feet tall. I recall that I told the gentlemen 345 was the absolute minimum landing distance based on a thumbnail calculation. "if you do attempt continued climb at this low speed and high body angle and then suffer an engine failure below 100' agl, [then] recovery is not possible before hitting the ground." So, you need more runway to pick up speed in ground affect so not to be forced to climb at 30 knots, and you need more runway incase of an engine failure. "A low experience pilot wanting to buy a 701 to operate a really short field on the strength of the advertised figures could be in for disappointment." I think that sums it up nicely. Math is your friend. Don't be afraid of it. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill stop From: "flybumtoo" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "flybumtoo" Very cool. This works great! Dan Ribb 601 XL Tail Kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2390#2390 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:01 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Right seat flying ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" I faced the same question myself and couldn't see any reason *not* to switch to the dual sticks. I've trained in dual yoke and dual stick planes and flown in an XL with dual sticks (William Wynne's tail-dragger) and didn't find the sticks in the way. And since various emergency controls will go on the center console (tank select, back-up fuel pump select, ignition coil/points select (semi-redundant Corvair ignition)) I'd rather keep my right hand free. I've tried to keep other important controls near the center so I can operate them with my right hand or my passenger/co-pilot can too. Your mileage may vary. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Maarten Versteeg Subject: Zenith-List: Right seat flying ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg --> Hello List, I am still getting ready to build a XL, reading list and archive but there is so much information on the list to digest. Hopefully I can start building somewhere this spring. I was recently offered a ride (thanks) and the 601xl flies great, the center stick felt very comfortable and the view was beautiful, in short I like the 601xl. A question concerning the control; I am used to write ATC info and other things down. If I would be flying in the left seat that would be hard (unless I have an autopilot). I like the center stick both from a simplicity point of view and control feels nice. Any thoughts about setting up the panel and pedals for right seat flying, or is this a silly thought. It would allow the pilot to control the plane left handed and the right hand would be free to control radio's and write ATC calls. Cockpit view is so good that flying left or right patterns wouldn't make much of a difference, any other concerns ? Regards, Maarten