---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/17/06: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:29 AM - Re: Proper Deburring Technique (Hunt Malcolm) 2. 03:10 AM - Loctite for Canopy Sealer (Jonathan Starke) 3. 03:16 AM - Re: Proper Deburring Technique (Gbrac80@aol.com) 4. 03:40 AM - Re: Loctite for Canopy Sealer (Bryan Martin) 5. 05:19 AM - Re: Proper Deburring Technique (Bob Unternaehrer) 6. 05:19 AM - Re: Proper Deburring Technique (Bob Unternaehrer) 7. 05:25 AM - Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? Dimpled Vs. Raised rivets (Condon, Philip M.) 8. 06:47 AM - Re: Proper Deburring Technique (Larry McFarland) 9. 06:50 AM - Definitive hole deburring (Geoff Heap) 10. 06:56 AM - Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? Dimpled Vs. Raised rivets (James Ferris) 11. 06:58 AM - Re: Loctite for Canopy Sealer (Larry McFarland) 12. 07:01 AM - Rudder workshop this week (John Hines) 13. 07:02 AM - Gas Tank Cleaning (Don Mountain) 14. 07:39 AM - 701 Forced Landing (Craig Moore) 15. 08:07 AM - Re: Gas Tank Cleaning (Paul Mulwitz) 16. 08:15 AM - Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? (Gig Giacona) 17. 08:21 AM - Re: Rudder workshop this week (Gig Giacona) 18. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? (Dave Austin) 19. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Rudder workshop this week (John Hines) 20. 08:56 AM - Re: Proper Deburring Technique (ken smith) 21. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? (JOHN STARN) 22. 10:08 AM - Re: Rudder workshop this week (MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838) 23. 10:08 AM - Re: Rudder workshop this week (MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838) 24. 10:08 AM - Re: Rudder workshop this week (MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838) 25. 10:08 AM - Re: Rudder workshop this week (MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838) 26. 10:08 AM - Re: Rudder workshop this week (MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838) 27. 10:08 AM - Re: Rudder workshop this week (MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838) 28. 10:08 AM - Re: Rudder workshop this week (MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838) 29. 11:01 AM - Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? (N5SL) 30. 11:12 AM - Re: Gas Tank Cleaning (Bob Unternaehrer) 31. 11:17 AM - Re: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? (Craig Payne) 32. 11:40 AM - Re: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? (Don Mountain) 33. 11:53 AM - Ref to using XL's fw for a HDS (Gpjann@aol.com) 34. 01:17 PM - Re: Gas Tank Cleaning (Larry McFarland) 35. 01:29 PM - Re: 701 Forced Landing (Larry McFarland) 36. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? (Dave G.) 37. 01:41 PM - Re: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? (Thilo Kind) 38. 01:52 PM - Re: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? (Larry McFarland) 39. 02:03 PM - Re: 701 Forced Landing (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 40. 02:03 PM - fuel sender leak (Gordon) 41. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? (James Ferris) 42. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? (JOHN STARN) 43. 04:47 PM - Re: Definitive hole deburring (Jim Hoak) 44. 07:21 PM - Re: 701 Forced Landing (Larry) 45. 08:54 PM - Re: Gas Tank Cleaning (David Alberti) 46. 10:03 PM - Re: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? (Gary Gower) 47. 10:32 PM - Re: fuel sender leak (NYTerminat@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique From: "Hunt Malcolm" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" Dave I use a hand held countersink bit but you need a very delicate touch when using on aluminium, I aim to get the merest bright ring around the edge of the hole (less than one thou') as I figure this is better than a slight ridge. It is very quick and no wear yet on the countersink (new when started) yet. Also works with 4130N. Just a thought- it works for me, no scratches from files and looks very professional. Regards Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen Sent: 17 January 2006 03:17 Subject: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" I have a procedural question regarding deburring. How much is enough in terms of material removed? If I use the file technique with a light touch to avoid scratches, or if I use the drill bit technique with minimal turns to avoid countersinking, it will take off the noticeable burrs. However, if I run my fingernail towards the hole, there is still a slight "ridge" right at the edge of the hole. Do I need to get all of this material off, so that there is absolutely no "raised" area at all? If I do that with the file, it tends to scratch the surface. If I try to remove it with additional turns of the drill bit, it looks like it may be starting to countersink the hole, which I know you're not supposed to do. Any advice for me? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI 601 XL Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. *************************************************************************************************************** The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. *************************************************************************************************************** ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:10:58 AM PST US From: "Jonathan Starke" Subject: Zenith-List: Loctite for Canopy Sealer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jonathan Starke" Hi All wise listers, I am in South Africa, and I cannot source the Loctite Product P/N 23782 , as recommended by ZAC to glue the Rubber Seal on The canopy. I have tried to order the Adhesive from ZAC, but they do not supply it. My Question is: Does anyone know of an alternative glue that can be used for Acrylic to Rubber bonding. Thnx Jonathan Starke ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:17 AM PST US From: Gbrac80@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gbrac80@aol.com MSC (_www.mscdirect.com_ (http://www.mscdirect.com) ) sells a large variety of deburring tools for internal and external radii, for less than ten dollars. These comprise a handle with a swiveling deburring blade that removes the burr with a simple rotary motion of the wrist. Rgfd, Mike. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Loctite for Canopy Sealer From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin 3M weather-strip adhesive worked very well on mine. Acrylic is not too difficult to glue to rubber, any good quality weather-strip adhesive should do the job. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. on 1/17/06 6:10 AM, Jonathan Starke at jonathan@entry.co.za wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jonathan Starke" > > Hi All wise listers, > > I am in South Africa, and I cannot source the Loctite Product P/N 23782 , as > recommended by ZAC to glue the Rubber Seal on The canopy. I have tried to > order the Adhesive from ZAC, but they do not supply it. > > My Question is: Does anyone know of an alternative glue that can be used for > Acrylic to Rubber bonding. > Thnx > Jonathan Starke > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:10 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" I know zenith likes the file method, but over the years I've found that the rotary tool that looks like a countersink tool on an offset screw driver handle is the best. In my opinion you don't need to remove the raised area around the hole, because this area will be reformed in the riveting process. My way of doing is run your finger over it and if it feels smooth it's ok. This opinion comes from buck riveting and should mostly apply to Pop riveting. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave VanLanen" Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:17 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > > I have a procedural question regarding deburring. How much is enough in > terms of material removed? If I use the file technique with a light touch > to avoid scratches, or if I use the drill bit technique with minimal turns > to avoid countersinking, it will take off the noticeable burrs. However, if > I run my fingernail towards the hole, there is still a slight "ridge" right > at the edge of the hole. Do I need to get all of this material off, so that > there is absolutely no "raised" area at all? If I do that with the file, it > tends to scratch the surface. If I try to remove it with additional turns > of the drill bit, it looks like it may be starting to countersink the hole, > which I know you're not supposed to do. > > Any advice for me? > > Thanks, > Dave Van Lanen > Madison, WI > 601 XL > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:10 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" Be a little careful, most scratches, and especially those that you can feel don't "disappear under the paint". If you remove the ridge you will most likely increase the size of the hole and fit up of any rivet is important to it's strength. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > Hi Dave, > > I think it is important to take off all the raised area around the > hole so the pieces of sheet metal mate completely. As I understand > it, this is not so important where the rivets mate to the holes, but > I try to get that area flat too. > > I don't think light scratches are a problem, so I don't worry about > them. I just use a smooth file and let the scratches come along with > the burrs. I intend to paint my plane anyway, so the scratches will > disappear under the paint. > > Good luck, > > Paul > XL wings > > > At 07:17 PM 1/16/2006, you wrote: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > > > > > >I have a procedural question regarding deburring. How much is enough in > >terms of material removed? If I use the file technique with a light touch > >to avoid scratches, or if I use the drill bit technique with minimal turns > >to avoid countersinking, it will take off the noticeable burrs. However, if > >I run my fingernail towards the hole, there is still a slight "ridge" right > >at the edge of the hole. Do I need to get all of this material off, so that > >there is absolutely no "raised" area at all? If I do that with the file, it > >tends to scratch the surface. If I try to remove it with additional turns > >of the drill bit, it looks like it may be starting to countersink the hole, > >which I know you're not supposed to do. > > > >Any advice for me? > > > >Thanks, > >Dave Van Lanen > >Madison, WI > >601 XL > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:56 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? Dimpled Vs. Raised rivets From: "Condon, Philip M." --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon, Philip M." Mark, your numbers are off. Mooney aircraft tried to use the less labor intensive method of using raised rivets heads on some Mooney's produced by Butler/Avstar in the early to mid 60's. On the wing from Leading edge to spar they used raised head rivets in addition to other frontal area(s). Speed loss was dramatic at over 10 knots indicated. Later Mooney's went back to the countersunk rivets in the critical air flow areas. Mooneys cruse at 160 knots. The Zeniths certainly less, but I would expect a larger difference then what you stated based on the Mooney story. It's quite easy to back (face) a countersunk rivet by shooting the tail and not the face of a rivet. Having built two RV's I can say that. Is it necessary on a Zenith..that depends. Certainly not (IMHO) for my 701. Other builders of faster Zeniths may want think this out with the facts. (BTW, extra fuel capability is a "speed mod" that many pilots don't think of.) Time: 04:23:20 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" The effect of flat riveting over domed heads is 1/4 mph gain on speeds below 200mph. IS the time worth it on an XL ? I doubt it, but if you want to do it for looks then knock yourself out. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:59 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Dave, Get yourself a deburring tool with a swiveling tip. Insert it in the hole and pull it around the hole deburing one side. Remove only enough to get rid of the burr. Files and drills are seldom a complete solution to removing edge ridges and burrs. The deburing tool will do it all with considerably less effort and potential damage. You only need to remove enough to be able to draw your finger across an edge without sensing a sharp one. Larry McFarland - 601HDS do not archive Dave VanLanen wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > >I have a procedural question regarding deburring. How much is enough in >terms of material removed? If I use the file technique with a light touch >to avoid scratches, or if I use the drill bit technique with minimal turns >to avoid countersinking, it will take off the noticeable burrs. However, if >I run my fingernail towards the hole, there is still a slight "ridge" right >at the edge of the hole. Do I need to get all of this material off, so that >there is absolutely no "raised" area at all? If I do that with the file, it >tends to scratch the surface. If I try to remove it with additional turns >of the drill bit, it looks like it may be starting to countersink the hole, >which I know you're not supposed to do. > >Any advice for me? > >Thanks, >Dave Van Lanen >Madison, WI >601 XL > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Definitive hole deburring From: "Geoff Heap" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" First we need to get rid of the mindset that hole deburring is an unimportant distraction. It is an operation in itself. Think about how many holes you will debur in your building process. Using the wrong tool will add countless hours to the process over the life of the project.Please buy the right tool and avoid being cheap. I've seen this question so many times over the years and someone always says to use a drillbit. Sorry guys this only works sometimes, usually with small diameter holes. No machinist would ever do this.The rotating blade is very good at this job.The most common brand name at MSCDIRECT.COM is the VARGUS. There are other brands, plus,I think SEARS sells something like it. One MSC debur set is from VARGUS (msc ORDER # 00424523). One handle and about a dozen blades for $3.92. One blade will almost last forever in aluminum. Add in a few steel parts and this set will build a couple of aircraft. This tool is great for holes about 3/8 dia. or larger. However, if the burr is thick and raised as a result of a dull drill, the resulting debur will be ugly.(same for using a drillbit). A smooth file should be used first to get rid of the raised part. Then the deburring tool can take the sharp corner off the hole nicely. I'm Building a CH701 so my holes are mainly 1/8" and 5/32". For these sizes the drill bit approach can work fairly well but only if the original hole was made with a sharp drill which will produce a very small burr. However you can do a better and I think, quicker job with a small countersink tool in a pin vise/chuck holder(you still need the file if the burr is heavy). It looks exactly like the rotating blade tool holder but instead of "snap in/snap out" as with the rotating blade, it will hold anything round just like a drill chuck does. MSC sells Part # 06491906 (5/16 dia. capacity) for $21.72.(I spent a while looking up these part numbers). Now all you need is a small countersink to use in the pin vise. There are millions of them out there. Try MSC PART # 60316650. It is 90 degrees, 5/16" dia. with 1/4" shank (MSC Part # 60316655 $12.69). Now here's the important part. This tool and all coutersinks have 3 or more flutes. This gives stability and is the reason why a 2 flute drillbit cannot debur well. I have all these tools and use them constantly.If you don't buy them now you probably will later. The parts I list here total about $37 + shipping. You can find them cheaper and possibly locally at SEARS. Don't baulk at the cost. I have a rivet squeezer that I paid a bundle for and only needed it for less than a hundred rivets. The deburring tools I use ALL the time. I hope this helps put this problem to rest. It's a recuring question from new builders. Regards to the group....Geoff Heap. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4668#4668 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:20 AM PST US From: James Ferris Subject: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? Dimpled Vs. Raised rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris This is an unreasonable comparison. The Mooney has a laminar flow airfoil designed to have laminar flow to about 40 percent chord (as far back as the spar) where as the thick blunt airfoil on the Zenith is a turbulent flow airfoil, it is amazing that you would get any increase in speed from flush rivits since the airfoil as turbulent flow from near the leading edge. Jim --- "Condon, Philip M." wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon, Philip > M." > > > Mark, your numbers are off. Mooney aircraft tried to > use the less labor > intensive method of using raised rivets heads on > some Mooney's produced > by Butler/Avstar in the early to mid 60's. On the > wing from Leading > edge to spar they used raised head rivets in > addition to other frontal > area(s). Speed loss was dramatic at over 10 knots > indicated. Later > Mooney's went back to the countersunk rivets in the > critical air flow > areas. Mooneys cruse at 160 knots. The Zeniths > certainly less, but I > would expect a larger difference then what you > stated based on the > Mooney story. It's quite easy to back (face) a > countersunk rivet by > shooting the tail and not the face of a rivet. > Having built two RV's I > can say that. Is it necessary on a Zenith..that > depends. Certainly not > (IMHO) for my 701. Other builders of faster Zeniths > may want think this > out with the facts. (BTW, extra fuel capability is a > "speed mod" that > many pilots don't think of.) > > > > > > > Time: 04:23:20 PM PST US > From: "Zodie Rocket" > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their > XL? > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" > > > The effect of flat riveting over domed heads is 1/4 > mph gain on speeds > below 200mph. IS the time worth it on an XL ? I > doubt it, but if you > want to do it for looks then knock yourself out. > > Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:15 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Loctite for Canopy Sealer --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Jonathan, I used PolyZap which is a product like Crazy Glue but works extremely well for your purpose. Had to order it from a place in Florida, but one 2-ounce bottle will do. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Jonathan Starke wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jonathan Starke" > >Hi All wise listers, > >I am in South Africa, and I cannot source the Loctite Product P/N 23782 , as >recommended by ZAC to glue the Rubber Seal on The canopy. I have tried to >order the Adhesive from ZAC, but they do not supply it. > >My Question is: Does anyone know of an alternative glue that can be used for >Acrylic to Rubber bonding. >Thnx >Jonathan Starke > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:25 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week From: "John Hines" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ I hope I see some of you there. John Hines John Hines IT Manager Crafton Tull & Associates 901 N. 47th Street Suite 200 Rogers, AR 72756 Tel:479-878-2449 Fax:479-631-6224 Mobile:479-366-4783 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:06 AM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Gas Tank Cleaning --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain I cut the hole for the fuel level indicator in my gas tank, and ended up having to file a little to get it to fit. Now I have to clean out the filings from inside the tank. Anybody have some good ideas? I tried a small vacume cleaner, but couldn't get them all. Don 601 XL, tail done, working on wings --------------------------------- Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:57 AM PST US From: Craig Moore Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Forced Landing --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore Hello, The Safetydata website shows that a 701 made a forced landing on Jan. 8th, in Youngstown Ohio after a loss of oil pressure. Landed in a field. No damage or injuries. Looks as if it has a Soob for power. Anybody have more info as to the reason for the loss of oil pressure, some are flying these engines or are considering them. "Inquiring minds want to know!" Craig Moore A&P 701 builder wannabe Northern MI ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:41 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gas Tank Cleaning --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Don, Have you tried turning the tank upside down and shaking? Paul XL wings do not archive > I cut the hole for the fuel level indicator in my gas tank, and > ended up having to file a little to get it to fit. Now I have to > clean out the filings from inside the tank. Anybody have some > good ideas? I tried a small vacume cleaner, but couldn't get them all. > > Don ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:16 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: has anyone dimpled their XL? From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" Doesn't some of the strength come from the domed shape of the rivet? -------- W.R. Gig Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4697#4697 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder workshop this week From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" Great, a fellow Arkansasan is building. Good move going to the workshop I can't stress enough to new builders what a good idea it is to go to the workshop. Are you building the 701 or 601? John.Hines(at)craftontull wrote: > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > -------- W.R. Gig Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4700#4700 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:31 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" As a test to speed production of Spitfires in WW2 they stuck split peas over every rivet on the plane. Lost about 4 mph at 400 mph. That was too much to give an Me 109. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:54 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder workshop this week From: "John Hines" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" I forgot to mention I'm building a 601XL. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder workshop this week --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" Great, a fellow Arkansasan is building. Good move going to the workshop I can't stress enough to new builders what a good idea it is to go to the workshop. Are you building the 701 or 601? John.Hines(at)craftontull wrote: > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > -------- W.R. Gig Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4700#4700 John Hines IT Manager Crafton Tull & Associates 901 N. 47th Street Suite 200 Rogers, AR 72756 Tel:479-878-2449 Fax:479-631-6224 Mobile:479-366-4783 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:24 AM PST US From: ken smith Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Proper Deburring Technique --> Zenith-List message posted by: ken smith The Vargus deburring tool described by several people is great when the hole size is very large (1/2 inch or better) but is not terribly good for 1/8 rivet holes. What I have done for these is to get a sponge rubber sanding block from Home Depot or Lowes, and use it on the concrete floor to break it in (almost wear it out). It then works great for the long rows of rivets. It also is very effective for smoothing the sheared edges of the parts. It leaves a polished finish on the aluminum and the holes are as clean as they can be. Ken Empennage 90% Larry McFarland wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Dave, Get yourself a deburring tool with a swiveling tip. Insert it in the hole and pull it around the hole deburing one side. Remove only enough to get rid of the burr. Files and drills are seldom a complete solution to removing edge ridges and burrs. The deburing tool will do it all with considerably less effort and potential damage. You only need to remove enough to be able to draw your finger across an edge without sensing a sharp one. Larry McFarland - 601HDS do not archive Dave VanLanen wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > >I have a procedural question regarding deburring. How much is enough in >terms of material removed? If I use the file technique with a light touch >to avoid scratches, or if I use the drill bit technique with minimal turns >to avoid countersinking, it will take off the noticeable burrs. However, if >I run my fingernail towards the hole, there is still a slight "ridge" right >at the edge of the hole. Do I need to get all of this material off, so that >there is absolutely no "raised" area at all? If I do that with the file, it >tends to scratch the surface. If I try to remove it with additional turns >of the drill bit, it looks like it may be starting to countersink the hole, >which I know you're not supposed to do. > >Any advice for me? > >Thanks, >Dave Van Lanen >Madison, WI >601 XL > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:59 AM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" So that's why Spitfires are green, Boy the things ya learn from the list. 8*) KABONG Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Austin" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:29 AM Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" > > As a test to speed production of Spitfires in WW2 they stuck split peas > over > every rivet on the plane. Lost about 4 mph at 400 mph. That was too much > to give an Me 109. > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:12 AM PST US From: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hines" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > John Hines > > > John Hines > IT Manager > > > Crafton Tull & Associates > 901 N. 47th Street > Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > > > Tel:479-878-2449 > Fax:479-631-6224 > Mobile:479-366-4783 > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the > system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is > intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee > you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify > the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by > mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing > or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is > strictly prohibited. > > > -- > 16/01/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:13 AM PST US From: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hines" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > John Hines > > > John Hines > IT Manager > > > Crafton Tull & Associates > 901 N. 47th Street > Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > > > Tel:479-878-2449 > Fax:479-631-6224 > Mobile:479-366-4783 > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the > system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is > intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee > you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify > the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by > mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing > or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is > strictly prohibited. > > > -- > 16/01/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:13 AM PST US From: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hines" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > John Hines > > > John Hines > IT Manager > > > Crafton Tull & Associates > 901 N. 47th Street > Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > > > Tel:479-878-2449 > Fax:479-631-6224 > Mobile:479-366-4783 > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the > system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is > intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee > you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify > the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by > mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing > or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is > strictly prohibited. > > > -- > 16/01/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:13 AM PST US From: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hines" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > John Hines > > > John Hines > IT Manager > > > Crafton Tull & Associates > 901 N. 47th Street > Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > > > Tel:479-878-2449 > Fax:479-631-6224 > Mobile:479-366-4783 > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the > system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is > intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee > you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify > the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by > mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing > or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is > strictly prohibited. > > > -- > 16/01/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:14 AM PST US From: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hines" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > John Hines > > > John Hines > IT Manager > > > Crafton Tull & Associates > 901 N. 47th Street > Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > > > Tel:479-878-2449 > Fax:479-631-6224 > Mobile:479-366-4783 > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the > system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is > intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee > you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify > the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by > mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing > or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is > strictly prohibited. > > > -- > 16/01/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:14 AM PST US From: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hines" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > John Hines > > > John Hines > IT Manager > > > Crafton Tull & Associates > 901 N. 47th Street > Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > > > Tel:479-878-2449 > Fax:479-631-6224 > Mobile:479-366-4783 > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the > system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is > intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee > you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify > the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by > mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing > or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is > strictly prohibited. > > > -- > 16/01/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:14 AM PST US From: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MUL-T-LOCK TEL 212 22 220 748 - GSM 212 61 338 838" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hines" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop this week > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > > Is anyone else out there going to the rudder workshop this week? I am > so excited I can't get any work done. I did start a web site (while I > was supposed to be working). There is nothing there yet except a few > pictures you have all seen before. I will post pictures from the > workshop when I get back. http://www.johnsplane.com/ > > I hope I see some of you there. > > John Hines > > > John Hines > IT Manager > > > Crafton Tull & Associates > 901 N. 47th Street > Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > > > Tel:479-878-2449 > Fax:479-631-6224 > Mobile:479-366-4783 > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed.. If you have received this email in error please notify the > system manager.. This message contains confidential information and is > intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee > you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify > the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by > mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing > or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is > strictly prohibited. > > > -- > 16/01/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:59 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Fellow builders: As you can see from the following photo, I haven't yet attached my forward, top skin permanently. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/1_17_06_Panel.jpg The first reason is that I have a rat's nest of wires to be tidied up. The second reason is that I want to be able to remove it later and haven't decided how best to do this. I have been using rivnuts all over the place for non-structural applications (like wire-clamps). For those of you who are reading and have not personally installed a rivnut and/or an anchor nut before, here's the best photo I could find: http://www.torquecontrol.ltd.uk/photo2.jpg or http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivets/rivnuts.jpg As opposed to an anchor nut: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/bolts/minianchornut.jpg So - after all that - my question is - does anybody have a good reason why I should not install rivnuts to hold down the top forward skin with screws? (Besides the obvious reason that one or two may spin in the future - I can get back there to hold them if this happens). Thanks in advance for any input, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:15 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gas Tank Cleaning --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" Sponge material safety wired to a stick. That's the way I completely drain and clean out stuff out of the bottom of the tank. bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Mountain" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:01 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Gas Tank Cleaning > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > > I cut the hole for the fuel level indicator in my gas tank, and ended up having to file a little to get it to fit. Now I have to clean out the filings from inside the tank. Anybody have some good ideas? I tried a small vacume cleaner, but couldn't get them all. > > Don > 601 XL, tail done, working on wings > > > --------------------------------- > Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:18 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Another possibility is Tinnerman U nuts. At least one builder use them to attach his top, forward skin. Look half way down this page: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/tinnerman.php -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:00 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Fellow builders: As you can see from the following photo, I haven't yet attached my forward, top skin permanently. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/1_17_06_Panel.jpg The first reason is that I have a rat's nest of wires to be tidied up. The second reason is that I want to be able to remove it later and haven't decided how best to do this. I have been using rivnuts all over the place for non-structural applications (like wire-clamps). For those of you who are reading and have not personally installed a rivnut and/or an anchor nut before, here's the best photo I could find: http://www.torquecontrol.ltd.uk/photo2.jpg or http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivets/rivnuts.jpg As opposed to an anchor nut: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/bolts/minianchornut.jpg So - after all that - my question is - does anybody have a good reason why I should not install rivnuts to hold down the top forward skin with screws? (Besides the obvious reason that one or two may spin in the future - I can get back there to hold them if this happens). Thanks in advance for any input, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:38 AM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain The anchor nuts have a much larger bearing area and are much stronger, plus the rivets provide much larger torque capacity when the screw gets hard to turn in old age. And they are pretty easy to put in. Don 601 XL, tail done, working on wings --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:42 AM PST US From: Gpjann@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Ref to using XL's fw for a HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gpjann@aol.com The 601 XL's firewall AND NG BRACKETs with additional reinforcements should also be used. It will withstand a hard landing much better the original HDS's. GPJ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:45 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gas Tank Cleaning --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Don, I had to replace a shut-off valve that was ruined by aluminum swarf in the header tank. It had become leaky and meant taking the cap off after draining the tank dry. After removing the finger strainer which was nearly clogged at one end with silver stuff, I used a brush on a stick and a flashlight to get it all pushed to the drain where another bottle brush cleared it from the fitting in the bottom of the tank. Really unpleasant but necessary. The swarf was accumulated from fabrication of my header, filings etc and I'd thought it was cleaned out, but seams have a way of hiding stuff. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Don Mountain wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > > I cut the hole for the fuel level indicator in my gas tank, and ended up having to file a little to get it to fit. Now I have to clean out the filings from inside the tank. Anybody have some good ideas? I tried a small vacume cleaner, but couldn't get them all. > > Don > 601 XL, tail done, working on wings > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:44 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Forced Landing --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Craig, The easiest way to loose oil in a Subaru is to put the pressure sensor on an extended fitting purchased from a hardware store in lieu of the automotive fitting. Automotive fittings are twice the wall thickness at the threaded ends as those typically found in hardware stores. I had one crack from vibration and it sprayed oil in the cowl. Didn't loose enough to put me down, but smelled a bit like a startup of the furnace in the fall. I replaced it with an automotive fitting that was much shorter and thicker. The other way to loose oil is to ignore the front seal at the lower redrive pully. You won't loose it so quickly you have to do an emergency landing but it will mess up the cowl just as effectively. I replaced one last year with a better sealant. Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru at www.macsmachine.com Craig Moore wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore > >Hello, > >The Safetydata website shows that a 701 made a forced >landing on Jan. 8th, in Youngstown Ohio after a loss >of oil pressure. Landed in a field. No damage or >injuries. Looks as if it has a Soob for power. Anybody >have more info as to the reason for the loss of oil >pressure, some are flying these engines or are >considering them. "Inquiring minds want to know!" > >Craig Moore >A&P 701 builder wannabe >Northern MI > > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:44 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave G." ----- Original Message ----- > As a test to speed production of Spitfires in WW2 they stuck split peas over > every rivet on the plane. Lost about 4 mph at 400 mph. That was too much > to give an Me 109. I guess the other side of this question is, how much would it hurt to use round head rivets on an RV. How much time could you save? ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:08 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Scott, I used anchor nuts for the forward skin. Replaced all rivets with #8 (for the side longerons) and #6 (for the firewall and IP) anchor nuts. Was a lot of work to install all those anchor nuts, but haven't regretted it at all. I have taken the forward skin off multiple times. And best off all: the plane flys fine and has not fallen out of the sky. I never used rivnuts, but heard several time, that too much torque will turn them loose in their holes. Best regards Thilo Kind CH 601 HDS ----- Original Message ----- From: "N5SL" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:00 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > > Fellow builders: > > As you can see from the following photo, I haven't yet > attached my forward, top skin permanently. > > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/1_17_06_Panel.jpg > > The first reason is that I have a rat's nest of wires > to be tidied up. The second reason is that I want to > be able to remove it later and haven't decided how > best to do this. > > I have been using rivnuts all over the place for > non-structural applications (like wire-clamps). > > For those of you who are reading and have not > personally installed a rivnut and/or an anchor nut > before, here's the best photo I could find: > > http://www.torquecontrol.ltd.uk/photo2.jpg > or > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivets/rivnuts.jpg > > As opposed to an anchor nut: > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/bolts/minianchornut.jpg > > So - after all that - my question is - does anybody > have a good reason why I should not install rivnuts to > hold down the top forward skin with screws? (Besides > the obvious reason that one or two may spin in the > future - I can get back there to hold them if this > happens). > > Thanks in advance for any input, > > Scott Laughlin > www.cooknwithgas.com > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:00 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Scott, The Tinnerman J-nuts are far more easy to use and they are only about $10 for a package of 50. I sized them for 6-32 screws and purchased them from McMaster Carr. Don't use Rivnuts or plate nuts as they wear out and are hard to replace. I've had my forward top skin off a dozen times and have replaced half a dozen screws (stripped thread) and perhaps 10 J-nuts in all that time. They never let go and you don't find any screws loose or missing after a flight. See links http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/uclips.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/xlfwdtopskin.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/flash&rubber.gif http://www.mcmaster.com/ (see j nuts shapes 1 and 2) See part numbers 94809A102 Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > >As opposed to an anchor nut: > >http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/bolts/minianchornut.jpg > >So - after all that - my question is - does anybody have a good reason why I >should not install rivnuts to hold down the top forward skin with screws? >(Besides the obvious reason that one or two may spin in the future - I can >get back there to hold them if this happens). > >Thanks in advance for any input, > >Scott Laughlin >www.cooknwithgas.com > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:05 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 701 Forced Landing From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" And an even more spectacular way is.... If you look at the pick up tube in the bottom of the sump, you will find it can be like 1n inch and quarter above the bottom of the sump. If you have a STOL airplane and slightly low oil...The oil surges back, uncovers your pick up tube and you get instant destroyed crank bearings under full power. RAM offers a dropped pickup tube, although you can make your own fairly easily. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Forced Landing --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland --> Craig, The easiest way to loose oil in a Subaru is to put the pressure sensor on an extended fitting purchased from a hardware store in lieu of the automotive fitting. Automotive fittings are twice the wall thickness at the threaded ends as those typically found in hardware stores. I had one crack from vibration and it sprayed oil in the cowl. Didn't loose enough to put me down, but smelled a bit like a startup of the furnace in the fall. I replaced it with an automotive fitting that was much shorter and thicker. The other way to loose oil is to ignore the front seal at the lower redrive pully. You won't loose it so quickly you have to do an emergency landing but it will mess up the cowl just as effectively. I replaced one last year with a better sealant. Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru at www.macsmachine.com Craig Moore wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore > >Hello, > >The Safetydata website shows that a 701 made a forced landing on Jan. >8th, in Youngstown Ohio after a loss of oil pressure. Landed in a >field. No damage or injuries. Looks as if it has a Soob for power. >Anybody have more info as to the reason for the loss of oil pressure, >some are flying these engines or are considering them. "Inquiring minds >want to know!" > >Craig Moore >A&P 701 builder wannabe >Northern MI > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:57 PM PST US From: "Gordon" Subject: Zenith-List: fuel sender leak --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon" I just checked my 701 fuel tanks (main & aux.) in the right wink for leaks prior to closing it up. I found that both VDO fuel senders leaked around some of the screw heads that go into the backing flange inside the tank. The paper washes under the screw heads had split, probably from over tightening, although it doesn't take much to break them. I also has a leak when I put an electrical ring connector under a screw head for a ground, as shown in the assembly guide. Has anyone else had this problem, and is there a better washer, copper, etc. that might be more durable. It seems like these thin paper washers are all that prevent the screws from leaking fuel? Gordon ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:51 PM PST US From: James Ferris Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris It doesn't have a laminar flow airfoil either so i don't think it would make a dimes worth of difference, may lower the landing speed because of the vortices. jim --- "Dave G." wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave G." > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > As a test to speed > production of Spitfires in > WW2 they stuck split peas over > > every rivet on the plane. Lost about 4 mph at 400 > mph. That was too much > > to give an Me 109. > > I guess the other side of this question is, how much > would it hurt to use > round head rivets on an RV. How much time could you > save? > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:34 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Saw a TV program the other night on Spitfires. Top speed was not the pilots main concern. Turning and stall speed in a vertical climb was the name of the game. They had two "Aces" on. An ME 109 & Spitfire were involved, 109 behind & both turning. 109 was gaining the advantage so the Spitfire pilot pulled straight up in a vertical climb, the 109 followed & rolled to watch the Spitfire. They were at about the same level looking at each other. The first one to stall & fall off would have the other on its tail. It would seem that the smoother the wing, the less air separation & lower stall. Flush vs round head ? ?. The 109 stalled first, Spitfire did a modified "hammerhead" & shot down the 109. KABONG Do No Archive Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: has anyone dimpled their XL? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris > > It doesn't have a laminar flow airfoil either so i > don't think it would make a dimes worth of difference, > may lower the landing speed because of the vortices. > jim > > --- "Dave G." wrote: > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave G." >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > As a test to speed >> production of Spitfires in >> WW2 they stuck split peas over >> > every rivet on the plane. Lost about 4 mph at 400 >> mph. That was too much >> > to give an Me 109. >> >> I guess the other side of this question is, how much >> would it hurt to use >> round head rivets on an RV. How much time could you >> save? ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:26 PM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Definitive hole deburring --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" Hey Listers, I agree completely with Geoff. I have done this stuff for nearly 50 years and I am Chairman of the Basic Sheet Metal Workshop at the SunNFun Fly-In. So for what its worth let me add a few thoughts. Many of my fellow volunteers who teach in the SNF workshop also have many years of experience. We nearly all prefer the offset handle with the three flut countersink bit installed. They just aren't that expensive when you consider that you will use the tool several thousand times during the construction of your metal aircraft. Yes, occasionally you can't get that tool into where you need it. Use the file or drill bit only when you must. If you were working with 2024-T3 and used a file you would be removing the Alclad which is there to prevent corrosion. Corrosion under a rivet head is a bad place to have it. 6060-T6 isn't as critical. There is no Alclad because of the makeup of the metal. The main thing to remember when deburring is that the junction of the pieces of metal and the rivet is the strongest when the hole is completely filled with the rivet. Also, rivets primarily do their job in shear. If the countersink is too deep, the sheetmetal acts as a shear on the rivet. If the burrs keep the two pieces of metal apart as the rivet is set, the joint just won't be as strong. The trick (which comes with practice) is to completely remove the burr without countersinking the hole at all. One of the previous Listers stated "I try to go maybe one thousandth into the hole" Not a bad way to describe it. It's important to deburr properly but don't agonize over it too much. I don't know of any General Aviation airplanes that have come apart because of improper deburring! Have fun building your airplane! Jim Hoak 601HD 500.3 hrs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Heap" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:49 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Definitive hole deburring > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" > > First we need to get rid of the mindset that hole deburring is an > unimportant distraction. It is an operation in itself. Think about > how many holes you will debur in your building process. Using the wrong > tool will add countless hours to the process over the life of the > project.Please buy the right tool and avoid being cheap. I've seen this > question so many times over the years and someone always says to use a > drillbit. Sorry guys this only works sometimes, usually with small > diameter holes. No machinist would ever do this.The rotating blade is very > good at this job.The most common brand name at MSCDIRECT.COM is the > VARGUS. There are other brands, plus,I think SEARS sells something like > it. One MSC debur set is from VARGUS (msc ORDER # 00424523). One handle > and about a dozen blades for $3.92. One blade will almost last forever in > aluminum. Add in a few steel parts and this set will build a couple of > aircraft. This tool is great for holes about 3/8 dia. or larger. However, > if the burr is thick and raised as a result of a dull drill, the resulting > debur will be ugly.(same for using a drillbit). A smooth > file should be used first to get rid of the raised part. Then the > deburring tool can take the sharp corner off the hole nicely. I'm Building > a CH701 so my holes are mainly 1/8" and 5/32". For these sizes the drill > bit approach can work fairly well but only if the original hole was made > with a sharp drill which will produce a very small burr. However you can > do a better and I think, quicker job with a small countersink tool in a > pin vise/chuck holder(you still need the file if the burr is heavy). It > looks exactly like the rotating blade tool holder but instead of "snap > in/snap out" as with the rotating blade, it will hold anything round just > like a drill chuck does. MSC sells Part # 06491906 (5/16 dia. capacity) > for $21.72.(I spent a while looking up these part numbers). Now all you > need is a small countersink to use in the pin vise. There are millions of > them out there. Try MSC PART # 60316650. It is 90 degrees, 5/16" dia. with > 1/4" shank (MSC Part # 60316655 $12.69). Now h! > ere's the important part. This tool and all coutersinks have 3 or more > flutes. This gives stability and is the reason why a 2 flute drillbit > cannot debur well. I have all these tools and use them constantly.If you > don't buy them now you probably will later. The parts I list here total > about $37 + shipping. You can find them cheaper and possibly locally at > SEARS. Don't baulk at the cost. I have a rivet squeezer that I paid a > bundle for and only needed it for less than a hundred rivets. The > deburring tools I use ALL the time. I hope this helps put this problem to > rest. It's a recuring question from new builders. Regards to the > group....Geoff Heap. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4668#4668 > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:07 PM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Forced Landing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" The best way I have found to install a oil sending unit with a Subaru or any other engine for that matter is to use a 12" grease whip and locate your sending unit on the firewall. Direct engine vibration is hard on the sending units. Most of the time they just quit working, I've not seen one crack open. But, I'm sure it could happen. Larry, www.skyhawg.com ---- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Forced Landing > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > > Craig, > The easiest way to loose oil in a Subaru is to put the pressure sensor > on an extended fitting > purchased from a hardware store in lieu of the automotive fitting. > Automotive fittings are > twice the wall thickness at the threaded ends as those typically found > in hardware stores. I had one > crack from vibration and it sprayed oil in the cowl. Didn't loose > enough to put me > down, but smelled a bit like a startup of the furnace in the fall. I > replaced it with an automotive > fitting that was much shorter and thicker. The other way to loose oil > is to ignore the front seal > at the lower redrive pully. You won't loose it so quickly you have to > do an emergency landing > but it will mess up the cowl just as effectively. I replaced one last > year with a better > sealant. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru at www.macsmachine.com > > Craig Moore wrote: > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore >> >>Hello, >> >>The Safetydata website shows that a 701 made a forced >>landing on Jan. 8th, in Youngstown Ohio after a loss >>of oil pressure. Landed in a field. No damage or >>injuries. Looks as if it has a Soob for power. Anybody >>have more info as to the reason for the loss of oil >>pressure, some are flying these engines or are >>considering them. "Inquiring minds want to know!" >> >>Craig Moore >>A&P 701 builder wannabe >>Northern MI >> >> >> >> > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:40 PM PST US From: "David Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gas Tank Cleaning --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" Make a small ball of masking tap with the sticky side out and attach it to a opened coat hanger. Just blot the ships on the sticky tape. Dave 601-HD 912ULS - > I cut the hole for the fuel level indicator in my gas tank, and > ended up having to file a little to get it to fit. Now I have to > clean out the filings from inside the tank. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:07 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Scott, Thats the only reason, they can turn loose in the skin. I made a test for the rivnuts to prevent them to turn: A used an epoxy putty with aluminum powder and applied carefully a little in the rivnut holding area and the skin... Then pressed the rivnut. My idea is that it will have double support, the natural squeeze of the rivnut and the glue of the epoxy... has to be very the exact quantity so the epoxy will not get in the nut area. Hope I got understood... Hope it holds as welded.... The tool was to expensive to trow it away :-) Saludos Gary Gower N5SL wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Fellow builders: As you can see from the following photo, I haven't yet attached my forward, top skin permanently. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/1_17_06_Panel.jpg The first reason is that I have a rat's nest of wires to be tidied up. The second reason is that I want to be able to remove it later and haven't decided how best to do this. I have been using rivnuts all over the place for non-structural applications (like wire-clamps). For those of you who are reading and have not personally installed a rivnut and/or an anchor nut before, here's the best photo I could find: http://www.torquecontrol.ltd.uk/photo2.jpg or http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivets/rivnuts.jpg As opposed to an anchor nut: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/bolts/minianchornut.jpg So - after all that - my question is - does anybody have a good reason why I should not install rivnuts to hold down the top forward skin with screws? (Besides the obvious reason that one or two may spin in the future - I can get back there to hold them if this happens). Thanks in advance for any input, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:53 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel sender leak --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Gordon, I had to replace the VDO sending unit in my 701 last week. I couldn't get the new one to seal, had it in and out 4 times through an access hole in the bottom of the wing( you did put an access hole in, right?) A mechanic on the field told me to use "Fuel Lube" and don't over tighten the screws. I used it and it worked the 1st time. It has the consistancy of a toilet bowl wax ring but won't dissolve in gas. I asked where to purchase it and he told me Aircraft Spruce but I couldn't find it there. Copper washers are available at auto parts stores. My replacement fuel sender (not VDO) used them undrer the ground lug, the other screws had little nylon washers. Bob Spudis N701ZX In a message dated 1/17/2006 5:12:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, cscsail@gmavt.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon" I just checked my 701 fuel tanks (main & aux.) in the right wink for leaks prior to closing it up. I found that both VDO fuel senders leaked around some of the screw heads that go into the backing flange inside the tank. The paper washes under the screw heads had split, probably from over tightening, although it doesn't take much to break them. I also has a leak when I put an electrical ring connector under a screw head for a ground, as shown in the assembly guide. Has anyone else had this problem, and is there a better washer, copper, etc. that might be more durable. It seems like these thin paper washers are all that prevent the screws from leaking fuel? Gordon