Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:15 AM - Re: Ye Olde Nose Geare Strute (steveadams)
2. 05:15 AM - Re: green scotchbrite and corrosion (steveadams)
3. 06:03 AM - 601 HDS Kit + Jabiru 3300A Engine + FWF for sale + Extras (Nate and Rusty Schiff)
4. 06:22 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Weston, Jim)
5. 06:24 AM - Re: green scotchbrite and corrosion (Weston, Jim)
6. 06:39 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Weston, Jim)
7. 07:07 AM - Re: 0.02 worth (owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com)
8. 07:55 AM - Filiform corrosion (was "The attack of the killer scotchbrite") (Carlos Sa)
9. 08:10 AM - Re: N105RH ()
10. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Ye Olde Nose Geare Strute (Gary Gower)
11. 09:01 AM - Re: N105RH (Don Walker)
12. 09:01 AM - Nutplates or rivnuts (Jeff Small)
13. 09:09 AM - Re: N105RH (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
14. 09:32 AM - Re: N105RH (japhillipsga@aol.com)
15. 09:43 AM - Re: N105RH (Dale Mahan)
16. 09:43 AM - Re: Nutplates or rivnuts (Ron Culver)
17. 09:46 AM - Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (Gig Giacona)
18. 09:46 AM - RE CH 601 XL Flaps (David Brown)
19. 09:50 AM - Re: N105RH (Don Walker)
20. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (Craig Payne)
21. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (Zodie Rocket)
22. 02:01 PM - RE : Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (repeated so that it gets archived) (Carlos Sa)
23. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (JOHN STARN)
24. 06:23 PM - Re: N105RH. (Gary Gower)
25. 06:26 PM - Re: N105RH.. (Gary Gower)
26. 06:31 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Flydog1966@aol.com)
27. 08:41 PM - ZAC Construction Manual Question (Dave VanLanen)
28. 09:01 PM - It could have landed on my house... (Brandon Tucker)
29. 09:01 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Mike Sinclair)
30. 10:28 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (B Johnson)
31. 10:35 PM - Re: ZAC Construction Manual Question (Ron Lendon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Ye Olde Nose Geare Strute |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
I wouldn't accept it, nor would I agree to fix it myself. ZAC should replace it
or fix it for you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11212#11212
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: green scotchbrite and corrosion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
Classic green scotch-brite corrosion! [Wink]
Seriously, I am not familiar with the conversion coating system you are using.
However, with alumiprep or alodine, if it is not rinsed well you can see similar
white areas appear. Since this developed so quickly after the treatment, I
would suspect a similar cause. I would try it again, making sure that you really
rinse the parts well after the treatment.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11210#11210
Message 3
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| Subject: | 601 HDS Kit + Jabiru 3300A Engine + FWF for sale + Extras |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Nate and Rusty Schiff" <natrus@comcast.net>
601HDS Kit, Jabiru 3300A engine new in crate, fire wall forward, most
engine instruments, strobes, warning lights, running lights, landing lights,
canopy kit, brakes kit, leading edge tanks, for sale.
Tail feathers 98 percent. Port wing ready for wiring and plumbing. Good
workmanship. Fully documented and logged. Zenith Bill of Sale. EAA
inspected. Best bet is to arrange pickup in South Carolina.
Email if interested natrus2710t@yahoo.com for inventory.
Will reply when inventory completed. Best offer over undisclosed reserve
buys all.
To crate completed components will be to expensive for buyer so think pick
up.
Non current medical and no time to complete prompts sale.
Message 4
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| Subject: | EVIL SCOTCHBRITE |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Doug,
I really am from Missouri. Grew up in the St. Louis area. So why don't
you "show me" and try the iron oxide on yours. Let me know how it comes
out. ;-) (The wink means that I'm just kidding.)
To attempt a partial answer to items 3 & 4. (I'm at work and don't have
access to any of my reference books.) I believe it was either in the
Tony Bengalis (not sure about the spelling of his name)book about
homebuilding, or the book that I bought about aircraft painting before I
painted my 601HDS, but one of the two (probably the painting book) made
the statements that I mentioned.
As I mentioned in my original post, I don't know anything about the
color coding of these scouring pads.
Have fun,
Jim Weston
Concord, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou,
Douglas
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
--> <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Okay, yours is the kind of post that gets the evil Scotchbrite internet
world humming. It's time to apply the scientific process.
I'm not saying you're wrong -- at this point I'm WAAAAY too ignorant to
stake out my position -- but I'm from Missouri. (Figuratively, and thus
unlike our 801 kit, which is from Missouri literally.)
Anyway, do you have:
(1) a source for the claim that green scotchbrite contains iron oxide
abrasives
(2) a source for the claim that iron oxide abrasives are very very bad
to use on aluminum
(3) a source for the claim that small particles of iron oxide abrasives
will actually embed themselves in the aluminum
(4) a source for the claim that these embedded particles then contribute
to dissimilar metal corrosion processes
(5) any evidence that any aluminum sheet anywhere has been corroded or
damaged in this fashion.
I'll take the "WE DON'T WANT CORROSION" part as a given.
It seems to me that whatever the heck is in green scotchbrite, steps 3
and 4 are the really questionable steps here. Meanwhile, we seem to
have anecdotal evidence that 5 hasn't yet occurred.
Clearly we need to ask those Ph.D. corrosion types this question. That
was a really interesting post (unlike my blather....)
Cheers
Doug Garrou
Project801
www.garrou.com
-----Original Message-----
Time: 10:51:10 AM PST US
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Ok, this is getting really fun. So I can't resist to put in my two
cents. I don't know about the color coding, but the problem is that
some pads are manufactured with Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive, and some
are manufactured with Iron Oxide as the abrasive. Iron Oxide is very
very very bad to use on aluminum. During the process of scrubbing the
aluminum small particles of iron oxide are embedded within the aluminum.
The contact between dissimilar metals and the rusting action of the iron
causes corrosion to form. WE DON'T WANT CORROSION ON OUR ALUMINUM
AIRPLANES. I may have the physics/chemistry of the situation a bit
wrong, but the effect is the same. Unless you figure out the color code
issue, buy your scotch brite type of pads at the local auto paint shop
and make sure that the abrasive is aluminum.
Jim Weston
Concord, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou,
Douglas
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:11 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
--> <dgarrou@hunton.com>
For those who have used green Scotchbrite, fear not: if this product
results in the destruction of your airframe, I will represent your
bereaved relatives and estate against 3M -- pro bono.
Seriously, what could a green Scotchbrite possibly do to aluminum sheet
that would damage it?!? True, I'm nobody's idea of an engineer -- you
can trust me on that, or you could just ask the Chief Engineer for
Project 801, where my official position apparently is "chief
self-inflicted injury receiver." But in any event, my pea-brain can't
get itself around the idea of a color-coded killer Scotchbrite.
I am, however, starting to get nervous. Now, whenever I see the green
Scotchbrite on the shelf at Project 801 HQ, that evil bad-guy music from
Star Wars starts playing in my head.
I also think that aircraft listed for sale in Trade-a-Plane should have
to identify total time on the airframe, total time on the engine since
overhaul, and whether a green Scotchbrite has ever been within 75 feet
of the aircraft.
Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around
my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you
just can't be too careful.
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored.
-----Original Message-----
> >
> > Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No
> > good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff.
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 10:51:36 AM PST US
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention: Alodine and Zinc
Chromate:
folow ups, pics and scotchbrite
--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
Dan, the brown or maroon pad it courser than the green. The reason there
may be some hesitation on our part to say what is right or wrong is that
we are not sure exactly what and when you plan to do with the metal. On
my XL I used the maroon pads to clean and scuff the metal before re
cleaning with lacquer thinner and wax /grease cleaner then priming with
epoxy primer. When the epoxy seals corrosion is dead. Best of luck, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Morehouse <messydeer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:10:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention: Alodine and Zinc
Chromate: folow ups, pics and scotchbrite
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Morehouse <messydeer@yahoo.com>
Thanks everybody for being thankful. I've taken so much from this group
over the
past several months, so it's nice to add something.
I'll be asking a few follow up questions to these guys in a little
while, so
please post any you have. I'll ask about the stain 'shadow' that remains
or recurrs. I was told it's fine to paint over, but I will double check
to make sure it would be nothing but a minor cosmetic defect.
I hit the aluminum with a Blendes drum and also with Alumiprep and
scotchbrite
for the first time last night. The Alumiprep didn't work so-so. I used a
GREEN
scotchbrite and maybe 20# hand pressure after mixing the Alumiprep 1:2,
the highest suggested mix ratio. Did that after a 6-8 minute dwell time.
The Blendex drum on an angle grinder by itself worked much better. It
looked
like that stain shadow was left after an initial pass using 10-20#
pressure on
the grinder. It was much shinier and the shadow was only noticeable at
certain
reflective angles. I'm not sure this is what Dr. Dean talked about or
not. I was
able to get rid of it with a second pass and twice as much pressure. If
this will be the interior side, I might not even have to do that. One of
my questions
I'll ask.
I emailed a few pics of this to the list. I'm told it may take a few
days to
post and the group will be notified.
Finally, it seems there's a debate on the grade of scotchbrite to be
used. I'm
using green and have heard others say maroon is better. Is that a finer
or coarser grade?
Cheers,
Dan
---------------------------------
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 10:57:21 AM PST US
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Propeller Balancing
--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
Jeff, Spruce has (had) an inexpensive plug, line level, string device
for sale to balance props. Saw it, but have not used it. Seem similar
devices in other DIY plane building books, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Sent: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:55:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Zenith-List: Propeller Balancing
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris"
--> <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Guru's of the Zenith List,
I've Googled without much luck, but does anyone have an inexpensive way,
directions, instructions to balance ones' wooden propeller? I'm curious
to see
what has to be said?
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Jeff Paris
N196ZP CH601XL Jabiru 3300
45 hours in the air and loving every minute of it!!!!
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 01:29:36 PM PST US
From: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
Jim,
It appears that what I have (not actually "green" per-say, looks more
like army green) is "silicon carbide" any thoughts on that??? More
fun??? <grin>
Bruce Johnson
Hoping my Sonex doesnt fall out of the sky because I bought cheep
surplus scotch=brite.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston, Jim
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Ok, this is getting really fun. So I can't resist to put in my two
cents. I don't know about the color coding, but the problem is that
some pads are manufactured with Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive, and some
are manufactured with Iron Oxide as the abrasive. Iron Oxide is very
very very bad to use on aluminum. During the process of scrubbing the
aluminum small particles of iron oxide are embedded within the aluminum.
The contact between dissimilar metals and the rusting action of the iron
causes corrosion to form. WE DON'T WANT CORROSION ON OUR ALUMINUM
AIRPLANES. I may have the physics/chemistry of the situation a bit
wrong, but the effect is the same. Unless you figure out the color code
issue, buy your scotch brite type of pads at the local auto paint shop
and make sure that the abrasive is aluminum.
Jim Weston
Concord, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou,
Douglas
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:11 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
--> <dgarrou@hunton.com>
For those who have used green Scotchbrite, fear not: if this product
results in the destruction of your airframe, I will represent your
bereaved relatives and estate against 3M -- pro bono.
Seriously, what could a green Scotchbrite possibly do to aluminum sheet
that would damage it?!? True, I'm nobody's idea of an engineer -- you
can trust me on that, or you could just ask the Chief Engineer for
Project 801, where my official position apparently is "chief
self-inflicted injury receiver." But in any event, my pea-brain can't
get itself around the idea of a color-coded killer Scotchbrite.
I am, however, starting to get nervous. Now, whenever I see the green
Scotchbrite on the shelf at Project 801 HQ, that evil bad-guy music from
Star Wars starts playing in my head.
I also think that aircraft listed for sale in Trade-a-Plane should have
to identify total time on the airframe, total time on the engine since
overhaul, and whether a green Scotchbrite has ever been within 75 feet
of the aircraft.
Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around
my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you
just can't be too careful.
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored.
-----Original Message-----
> >
> > Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No
> > good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff.
--
--
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 03:35:06 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: green scotchbrite
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
It looks like the green pads are for scouring. Here is a link to 3m's
site:
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10918#10918
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 04:08:56 PM PST US
From: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com"
--> <n801bh@netzero.com>
Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around
my neck
when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't
be too
careful.
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored.
//////////////////////////////////////////
Ya know, The image of green colored scotchbrite hair flashed through my
brain for a second. All I saw was a Don King looking guy at a salad
bar... EEEWWWWWW...
<G>
Of course, DO NOT ARCHIVE.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around
my neck
when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't
be too
careful.
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored.
//////////////////////////////////////////
Ya know,The image ofgreen colored scotchbrite hair flashed through my
brain for a second. All I saw was a Don King looking guy at a salad
bar... EEEWWWWWW...
G
Of course, DO NOT ARCHIVE.
BenHaas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | green scotchbrite and corrosion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
I looked at your pictures. That is what is called filliform corrosion.
The best way to stop it is to lightly sand the area with some 400 grit
wet/dry sandpaper then spray it with ACF50 or a similar product that is
meant for the treatment of corrosion. Aircraft Spruce sells the ACF50
is spray cans or by the gallon to treat an entire aircraft.
By the way, filliform corrosion once started will continue to spread
like roots from a tree. Don't use the part until you've killed the
corrosion.
Jim Weston
Concord, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mcr01steiner@mac.com
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:10 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: green scotchbrite and corrosion
--> Zenith-List message posted by: mcr01steiner@mac.com
The operating instructions that came with the Sanchem Safegard CC-6100
state to use the provided abrasive pad to prepare the surface. Since
there was none supplied I used some of the green stuff that I've bought
at a local store. A couple of days after the conversion coating
treatment the parts looked like this:
http://homepage.mac.com/csteiner/PhotoAlbum9.html . Looks like
corrosion to me !
Any ideas what to do with these parts now? I' ve treated the stabilizer
skeleton parts and riveted them befor I noticed the problem.
Christoph Steiner
601 XL
Am Montag, 06.02.06, um 22:01 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Thilo Kind:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind@gmx.net>
Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No good
for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff.
Happy building
Thilo Kind
Message 6
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| Subject: | EVIL SCOTCHBRITE |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Ok, I'm going to have to hang my head low in shame. I just went to the
3M website and looked up the info on their Scotch-Brite pads. Here's
the quote from their Q&A section:
"How are Scotch-Brite(r) scrub sponges made?
The sponge is made of ground wood pulp; the scouring surface of nylon
fiber."
The only thing that I can figure is that, since it's been a few years
ago since I painted my plane, I must have mixed up things that I read in
the book about not using steel wool and conversations that I had with a
local aircraft painter about the use of various different scotch-brite
products.
It looks like you're all ok with the scotch brite. Their website
indicated that the color coding was just an indication of how abrasive
the pad was.
Hope this helps,
Jim Weston
Concord, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston, Jim
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Doug,
I really am from Missouri. Grew up in the St. Louis area. So why don't
you "show me" and try the iron oxide on yours. Let me know how it comes
out. ;-) (The wink means that I'm just kidding.)
To attempt a partial answer to items 3 & 4. (I'm at work and don't have
access to any of my reference books.) I believe it was either in the
Tony Bengalis (not sure about the spelling of his name)book about
homebuilding, or the book that I bought about aircraft painting before I
painted my 601HDS, but one of the two (probably the painting book) made
the statements that I mentioned.
As I mentioned in my original post, I don't know anything about the
color coding of these scouring pads.
Have fun,
Jim Weston
Concord, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou,
Douglas
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
--> <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Okay, yours is the kind of post that gets the evil Scotchbrite internet
world humming. It's time to apply the scientific process.
I'm not saying you're wrong -- at this point I'm WAAAAY too ignorant to
stake out my position -- but I'm from Missouri. (Figuratively, and thus
unlike our 801 kit, which is from Missouri literally.)
Anyway, do you have:
(1) a source for the claim that green scotchbrite contains iron oxide
abrasives
(2) a source for the claim that iron oxide abrasives are very very bad
to use on aluminum
(3) a source for the claim that small particles of iron oxide abrasives
will actually embed themselves in the aluminum
(4) a source for the claim that these embedded particles then contribute
to dissimilar metal corrosion processes
(5) any evidence that any aluminum sheet anywhere has been corroded or
damaged in this fashion.
I'll take the "WE DON'T WANT CORROSION" part as a given.
It seems to me that whatever the heck is in green scotchbrite, steps 3
and 4 are the really questionable steps here. Meanwhile, we seem to
have anecdotal evidence that 5 hasn't yet occurred.
Clearly we need to ask those Ph.D. corrosion types this question. That
was a really interesting post (unlike my blather....)
Cheers
Doug Garrou
Project801
www.garrou.com
-----Original Message-----
Time: 10:51:10 AM PST US
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Ok, this is getting really fun. So I can't resist to put in my two
cents. I don't know about the color coding, but the problem is that
some pads are manufactured with Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive, and some
are manufactured with Iron Oxide as the abrasive. Iron Oxide is very
very very bad to use on aluminum. During the process of scrubbing the
aluminum small particles of iron oxide are embedded within the aluminum.
The contact between dissimilar metals and the rusting action of the iron
causes corrosion to form. WE DON'T WANT CORROSION ON OUR ALUMINUM
AIRPLANES. I may have the physics/chemistry of the situation a bit
wrong, but the effect is the same. Unless you figure out the color code
issue, buy your scotch brite type of pads at the local auto paint shop
and make sure that the abrasive is aluminum.
Jim Weston
Concord, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou,
Douglas
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:11 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
--> <dgarrou@hunton.com>
For those who have used green Scotchbrite, fear not: if this product
results in the destruction of your airframe, I will represent your
bereaved relatives and estate against 3M -- pro bono.
Seriously, what could a green Scotchbrite possibly do to aluminum sheet
that would damage it?!? True, I'm nobody's idea of an engineer -- you
can trust me on that, or you could just ask the Chief Engineer for
Project 801, where my official position apparently is "chief
self-inflicted injury receiver." But in any event, my pea-brain can't
get itself around the idea of a color-coded killer Scotchbrite.
I am, however, starting to get nervous. Now, whenever I see the green
Scotchbrite on the shelf at Project 801 HQ, that evil bad-guy music from
Star Wars starts playing in my head.
I also think that aircraft listed for sale in Trade-a-Plane should have
to identify total time on the airframe, total time on the engine since
overhaul, and whether a green Scotchbrite has ever been within 75 feet
of the aircraft.
Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around
my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you
just can't be too careful.
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored.
-----Original Message-----
> >
> > Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No
> > good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff.
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 10:51:36 AM PST US
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention: Alodine and Zinc
Chromate:
folow ups, pics and scotchbrite
--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
Dan, the brown or maroon pad it courser than the green. The reason there
may be some hesitation on our part to say what is right or wrong is that
we are not sure exactly what and when you plan to do with the metal. On
my XL I used the maroon pads to clean and scuff the metal before re
cleaning with lacquer thinner and wax /grease cleaner then priming with
epoxy primer. When the epoxy seals corrosion is dead. Best of luck, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Morehouse <messydeer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:10:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention: Alodine and Zinc
Chromate: folow ups, pics and scotchbrite
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Morehouse <messydeer@yahoo.com>
Thanks everybody for being thankful. I've taken so much from this group
over the
past several months, so it's nice to add something.
I'll be asking a few follow up questions to these guys in a little
while, so
please post any you have. I'll ask about the stain 'shadow' that remains
or recurrs. I was told it's fine to paint over, but I will double check
to make sure it would be nothing but a minor cosmetic defect.
I hit the aluminum with a Blendes drum and also with Alumiprep and
scotchbrite
for the first time last night. The Alumiprep didn't work so-so. I used a
GREEN
scotchbrite and maybe 20# hand pressure after mixing the Alumiprep 1:2,
the highest suggested mix ratio. Did that after a 6-8 minute dwell time.
The Blendex drum on an angle grinder by itself worked much better. It
looked
like that stain shadow was left after an initial pass using 10-20#
pressure on
the grinder. It was much shinier and the shadow was only noticeable at
certain
reflective angles. I'm not sure this is what Dr. Dean talked about or
not. I was
able to get rid of it with a second pass and twice as much pressure. If
this will be the interior side, I might not even have to do that. One of
my questions
I'll ask.
I emailed a few pics of this to the list. I'm told it may take a few
days to
post and the group will be notified.
Finally, it seems there's a debate on the grade of scotchbrite to be
used. I'm
using green and have heard others say maroon is better. Is that a finer
or coarser grade?
Cheers,
Dan
---------------------------------
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 10:57:21 AM PST US
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Propeller Balancing
--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
Jeff, Spruce has (had) an inexpensive plug, line level, string device
for sale to balance props. Saw it, but have not used it. Seem similar
devices in other DIY plane building books, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Sent: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:55:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Zenith-List: Propeller Balancing
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris"
--> <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Guru's of the Zenith List,
I've Googled without much luck, but does anyone have an inexpensive way,
directions, instructions to balance ones' wooden propeller? I'm curious
to see
what has to be said?
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Jeff Paris
N196ZP CH601XL Jabiru 3300
45 hours in the air and loving every minute of it!!!!
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 01:29:36 PM PST US
From: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
Jim,
It appears that what I have (not actually "green" per-say, looks more
like army green) is "silicon carbide" any thoughts on that??? More
fun??? <grin>
Bruce Johnson
Hoping my Sonex doesnt fall out of the sky because I bought cheep
surplus scotch=brite.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston, Jim
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Ok, this is getting really fun. So I can't resist to put in my two
cents. I don't know about the color coding, but the problem is that
some pads are manufactured with Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive, and some
are manufactured with Iron Oxide as the abrasive. Iron Oxide is very
very very bad to use on aluminum. During the process of scrubbing the
aluminum small particles of iron oxide are embedded within the aluminum.
The contact between dissimilar metals and the rusting action of the iron
causes corrosion to form. WE DON'T WANT CORROSION ON OUR ALUMINUM
AIRPLANES. I may have the physics/chemistry of the situation a bit
wrong, but the effect is the same. Unless you figure out the color code
issue, buy your scotch brite type of pads at the local auto paint shop
and make sure that the abrasive is aluminum.
Jim Weston
Concord, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou,
Douglas
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:11 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
--> <dgarrou@hunton.com>
For those who have used green Scotchbrite, fear not: if this product
results in the destruction of your airframe, I will represent your
bereaved relatives and estate against 3M -- pro bono.
Seriously, what could a green Scotchbrite possibly do to aluminum sheet
that would damage it?!? True, I'm nobody's idea of an engineer -- you
can trust me on that, or you could just ask the Chief Engineer for
Project 801, where my official position apparently is "chief
self-inflicted injury receiver." But in any event, my pea-brain can't
get itself around the idea of a color-coded killer Scotchbrite.
I am, however, starting to get nervous. Now, whenever I see the green
Scotchbrite on the shelf at Project 801 HQ, that evil bad-guy music from
Star Wars starts playing in my head.
I also think that aircraft listed for sale in Trade-a-Plane should have
to identify total time on the airframe, total time on the engine since
overhaul, and whether a green Scotchbrite has ever been within 75 feet
of the aircraft.
Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around
my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you
just can't be too careful.
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored.
-----Original Message-----
> >
> > Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No
> > good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff.
--
--
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 03:35:06 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: green scotchbrite
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
It looks like the green pads are for scouring. Here is a link to 3m's
site:
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10918#10918
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 04:08:56 PM PST US
From: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com"
--> <n801bh@netzero.com>
Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around
my neck
when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't
be too
careful.
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored.
//////////////////////////////////////////
Ya know, The image of green colored scotchbrite hair flashed through my
brain for a second. All I saw was a Don King looking guy at a salad
bar... EEEWWWWWW...
<G>
Of course, DO NOT ARCHIVE.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around
my neck
when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't
be too
careful.
Doug Garrou
Project 801
www.garrou.com
p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored.
//////////////////////////////////////////
Ya know,The image ofgreen colored scotchbrite hair flashed through my
brain for a second. All I saw was a Don King looking guy at a salad
bar... EEEWWWWWW...
G
Of course, DO NOT ARCHIVE.
BenHaas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by:
Oh my. Oh, my my my.
Brad, you have made a critical and fundamental error here: you have actually gathered
facts. Your actions are entirely contrary to the spirit of the web, in
that they are NOT likely to further the propagation of false information and
the creation of needless concern.
This kind of conduct is, in a word, Un-American.
It's much better to have no faint idea of the facts, but still authoritatively
post that green Scotchbrite contains "iron oxides" (rust?) and will therefore
cause CORROSION (use of capital letters is important in matters like this) because
of the dissimilar metals involved.
I trust you will ponder your transgression and address this huge character flaw.
Repent!!
:)
Cheers
Doug Garrou
Project801
www.garrou.com
do not archive, please
-----Original Message-----
Time: 02:49:49 PM PST US
From: "Brad Cohen" <bradfnp@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: 0.02 worth
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brad Cohen" <bradfnp@msn.com>
O.K.,
I have been sitting back watching the Scotch-Brite "discussion" from the sidelines,
so now I am gonna weigh in.
I called 3M consumer division this afternoon and asked about the abrasive agent
in the green pads
I was told by a rep from 3M that the abrasive in the green and maroon Scotch-Brite
pads both is Alumimun Oxide. As a matter of fact, she told me that the only
difference between the two was the abrasiveness (grit), the green more coarse.
She is supposed to be faxing me the MSDS/product description showing Aluminum Oxide
as the abrasive agent. Hopefully it will be legible enough to scan into
the computer and save as a .DOC file,. If those two stipulations are met, I will
try to make it availiable to any other interested people/persons/builders...etc
Just my $0.02 worth
Brad Cohen
601xl tail & wings Scotch-Brited, prepped and primed!
Archieve at your leisure
Message 8
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| Subject: | Filiform corrosion (was "The attack of the killer scotchbrite") |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
There are several web pages discussing filiform corrosion, and none seem to indicate
previous
contact with you-know-what.
Here is one extract from a NASA site:
**********
"This type of corrosion occurs under painted or plated surfaces when moisture permeates
the
coating. Lacquers and "quick-dry" paints are most susceptible to the problem. Their
use should be
avoided unless absence of an adverse effect has been proven by field experience.
Where a coating
is required, it should exhibit low water vapor transmission characteristics and
excellent
adhesion. Zinc-rich coatings should also be considered for coating carbon steel
because of their
cathodic protection quality."
**********
Nanjing University:
**********
"Filiform corrosion, sometimes also called "wormtrack corrosion", is a very characteristic
type
of (oxygen concentration cell) corrosion that occurs under some coatings in the
form of randomly
distributed threadlike filaments.
It most commonly occurs on aluminum alloys coated with an organic coating, but
other examples
exist (e.g., on nickel alloys covered with a thick oxide layer in high-temperature
chloride
solutions).
The filaments grow along the metal / coating interface at typical rates up to 1mm/day
(0.04
in/d). The moving end of the filament is called the "head", and the remainder of
the track is
called the "tail"."
**********
Some URLs for your reference:
NASA: http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/html/filicor.htm
Florida State University: http://www.chem.fsu.edu/editors/STEINBOCK/projects/ffc/ffc.htm
Department of Mechanical Engineering, Nanjing University of Chemical Technology:
http://httd.njuct.edu.cn/MatWeb/corrosie/c_fil.htm
There are many more hits, if you care to search.
Cheers
Carlos
--- "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com> a crit :
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
>
> I looked at your pictures. That is what is called filliform corrosion.
> The best way to stop it is to lightly sand the area with some 400 grit
> wet/dry sandpaper then spray it with ACF50 or a similar product that is
> meant for the treatment of corrosion. Aircraft Spruce sells the ACF50
> is spray cans or by the gallon to treat an entire aircraft.
>
> By the way, filliform corrosion once started will continue to spread
> like roots from a tree. Don't use the part until you've killed the
> corrosion.
>
> Jim Weston
> Concord, Ga.
Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ?
magasinage.yahoo.ca
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: <KE6FIS@arrl.net>
>
> Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US
> From: xl <xl@prosody.org>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>
>
> >From the Modesto Bee:
> http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html
>
I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two
eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during
flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the
reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught
my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how
accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to
see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last
few days, so that wasn't a factor...
Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site:
http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html
--
Bob Johnson
KE6FIS@arrl.net
CH601XL
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Ye Olde Nose Geare Strute |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
I am sure there will be no problem at all for ZAC to replace (or repair) that nose
gear.
They do sometimes (just for service), send parts WE as builders damage and they
send it even in some cases free of charge!
Just ask them for instrucctions and you will recieve the part very soon.
Given their shop size. They give Better service than we can spect, same from
Chez...
Yes, First hand experience.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
701 912S
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
steveadams <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams"
I wouldn't accept it, nor would I agree to fix it myself. ZAC should replace it
or fix it for you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11212#11212
---------------------------------
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" <d3dw@msn.com>
It's hard for me to imagine wings folding up on a Zodiac as stout as these things
are. Had to be something extreme going on...or forgotten. don
----- Original Message -----
From: KE6FIS@arrl.net<mailto:KE6FIS@arrl.net>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <KE6FIS@arrl.net<mailto:KE6FIS@arrl.net>>
>
> Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US
> From: xl <xl@prosody.org<mailto:xl@prosody.org>>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org<mailto:xl@prosody.org>>
>
>
> >From the Modesto Bee:
> http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html<http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html>
>
I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two
eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during
flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the
reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught
my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how
accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to
see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last
few days, so that wasn't a factor...
Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site:
http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html<http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html>
--
Bob Johnson
KE6FIS@arrl.net<mailto:KE6FIS@arrl.net>
CH601XL
Message 12
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| Subject: | Nutplates or rivnuts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
I agree with Cy, the washers under the rivnuts is not a good idea. In fact
as I've said here before, after about 50 years of messing around this stuff
I only used rivnuts for interior panels and things like that . In fact I
don't use them at all anymore. Go to the effort of installing "Nutplates"
(there are many different kinds for different applications) especially in
locations where you will be removing the screws or bolts on a regular basis.
Since the introduction of 3/32" pull or blind rivets used for attachment, it
is fairly easy to install nutplates. No need to use a rivet gun and bucking
bar . Go for nutplates every time and leave those antique rivnuts in the
bin!
+++ Also agree with Cy and Jim. I think most guys lean toward rivnuts because
they seem to be easy to install. They are, but the first one that spins on you
when you're far from home and need to effect a repair by taking off a panel
or fitting...well, Murphy got ya.
After the last go around on the list about these two I typed up a short tutorial
on installing nutplates and sent it off to ch601.org but they didn't see fit
to use it in their Builders Resources. I still have it, complete with a few
jpegs if anyone wants it.
regards jeff
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the
snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give
his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could
have!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
KE6FIS@arrl.net
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <KE6FIS@arrl.net>
>
> Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US
> From: xl <xl@prosody.org>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>
>
> >From the Modesto Bee:
> http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html
>
I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two
eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during
flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the
reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught
my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how
accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to
see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last
few days, so that wasn't a factor...
Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site:
http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html
--
Bob Johnson
KE6FIS@arrl.net
CH601XL
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com
Frank, I agree that such statements by 'civilians' demeans all of us. The news
vultures must think that as we are trying to maintain hope of life and doing all
we can to survive on the way down we look for the odd school bus or senior
citizen home to slam into. Just another ill example that blood and pain sells.
Best to you and my endless sympathy for the families of those lost. Bill Phillips
N505WP 601XL-3300
-----Original Message-----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Sent: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:07:47 -0800
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N105RH
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the
snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give
his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could
have!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
KE6FIS@arrl.net
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <KE6FIS@arrl.net>
>
> Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US
> From: xl <xl@prosody.org>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>
>
> >From the Modesto Bee:
> http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html
>
I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two
eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during
flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the
reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught
my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how
accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to
see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last
few days, so that wasn't a factor...
Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site:
http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html
--
Bob Johnson
KE6FIS@arrl.net
CH601XL
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dale Mahan <dalemahan@charter.net>
No Frank,
The pilot actually DID give his life and kept from crashing into the
house at the same time. Nuf' said.
Dale
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the
>snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give
>his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could
>have!
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>KE6FIS@arrl.net
>Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: <KE6FIS@arrl.net>
>
>
>
>>Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US
>>From: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>>
>>
>>>From the Modesto Bee:
>>http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two
>eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during
>flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the
>reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught
>my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how
>accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to
>see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last
>few days, so that wasn't a factor...
>
>Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site:
>
>http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Nutplates or rivnuts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Culver <rculver@nycap.rr.com>
I would appreciate seeing that Jeff thanks for offering..
Best,
Ron Culver
Jeff Small wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
>
>
>I agree with Cy, the washers under the rivnuts is not a good idea. In fact
>as I've said here before, after about 50 years of messing around this stuff
>I only used rivnuts for interior panels and things like that . In fact I
>don't use them at all anymore. Go to the effort of installing "Nutplates"
>(there are many different kinds for different applications) especially in
>locations where you will be removing the screws or bolts on a regular basis.
>Since the introduction of 3/32" pull or blind rivets used for attachment, it
>is fairly easy to install nutplates. No need to use a rivet gun and bucking
>bar . Go for nutplates every time and leave those antique rivnuts in the
>bin!
>
>+++ Also agree with Cy and Jim. I think most guys lean toward rivnuts because
they seem to be easy to install. They are, but the first one that spins on you
when you're far from home and need to effect a repair by taking off a panel
or fitting...well, Murphy got ya.
>
>After the last go around on the list about these two I typed up a short tutorial
on installing nutplates and sent it off to ch601.org but they didn't see fit
to use it in their Builders Resources. I still have it, complete with a few
jpegs if anyone wants it.
>
>regards jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
I too had the orginal braket but I needed to replace it. What the sent me had no
bolt at all. The bolt (you select the length you need depending on mount) is
a seperate part as is the nut.)
THe new braket also has part of the mounting hardware for the canopy.
--------
W.R. Gig Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11281#11281
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Brown" <dbrown@avecc.com>
I don't recall anyone addressing this question, so I will give it a go.
I called Zenith and got Nick. He said that if the axis of the flap
actuator rod and the flap hinge axis was concentric that only a 1/4"
hole was needed through both the flap rib and the nylon control plate.
When I pressed him about the orientation being shown 2 different ways,
he replied that 1/4" hole could be drilled and then elongated only as
necessary with a round file when the wing was trial fit to the airframe.
David Brown
CH601 XL
-----Original Message-----
On the CH 601 XL flaps part 6W1-3-1 (nylon control plate) has a 1/4" x
15mm slot in it. My question is does this slot also get put in the
inboard end rib(6W1-1-1) or is it just a 1/4" hole in the rib?
Thanks,
Lee Francke
CH 601 XL s/n: 6-5985
Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" <d3dw@msn.com>
Yeah, Frank, why doesn't the rest of the world know how gracious us pilots really
are? don
do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)<mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N105RH
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com<mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com>>
And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the
snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give
his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could
have!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
KE6FIS@arrl.net<mailto:KE6FIS@arrl.net>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <KE6FIS@arrl.net<mailto:KE6FIS@arrl.net>>
>
> Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US
> From: xl <xl@prosody.org<mailto:xl@prosody.org>>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org<mailto:xl@prosody.org>>
>
>
> >From the Modesto Bee:
> http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html<http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html>
>
I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two
eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during
flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the
reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught
my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how
accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to
see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last
few days, so that wasn't a factor...
Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site:
http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html<http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html>
--
Bob Johnson
KE6FIS@arrl.net<mailto:KE6FIS@arrl.net>
CH601XL
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
How do you hold the nut while tightening the bolts? Isn't it on the
pilot-side of the firewall? If so and the glare-shield is installed it could
be very hard to reach the nut with a socket.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 10:46 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
I too had the orginal braket but I needed to replace it. What the sent me
had no bolt at all. The bolt (you select the length you need depending on
mount) is a seperate part as is the nut.)
THe new braket also has part of the mounting hardware for the canopy.
--------
W.R. Gig Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11281#11281
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Isn't that why God allowed us to have children or grandchildren?
cdngoose
-----Original Message-----
How do you hold the nut while tightening the bolts? Isn't it on the
pilot-side of the firewall? If so and the glare-shield is installed it
could
be very hard to reach the nut with a socket.
-- Craig
do not archive
--
2/10/2006
Message 22
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| Subject: | EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (repeated so that it gets archived) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
I think this one is worth keeping for future builders.
As there was a "d* n*t archive" statement at the bottom of the thread, I am reposting
Jim's note.
Now back to building
Carlos
--- "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com> a crit :
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
>
> Ok, I'm going to have to hang my head low in shame. I just went to the
> 3M website and looked up the info on their Scotch-Brite pads. Here's
> the quote from their Q&A section:
>
> "How are Scotch-Brite(r) scrub sponges made?
> The sponge is made of ground wood pulp; the scouring surface of nylon
> fiber."
>
> The only thing that I can figure is that, since it's been a few years
> ago since I painted my plane, I must have mixed up things that I read in
> the book about not using steel wool and conversations that I had with a
> local aircraft painter about the use of various different scotch-brite
> products.
>
> It looks like you're all ok with the scotch brite. Their website
> indicated that the color coding was just an indication of how abrasive
> the pad was.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Jim Weston
> Concord, Ga.
Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ?
magasinage.yahoo.ca
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Grandkids work great but so do nut plates attached in advance. KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs
> Isn't that why God allowed us to have children or grandchildren?
> How do you hold the nut while tightening the bolts? Isn't it on the
> pilot-side of the firewall? If so and the glare-shield is installed it
> could
> be very hard to reach the nut with a socket.
>
> -- Craig
>
> do not archive
Message 24
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
They mention that the wings caught fire... Thats a diferent thing, normal in any
hard crash with metal friction and gasoline fumes... so lets wait for the NTSB
for the REAL causes, Media (worldwide) are bright Yellow, they SELL news
not the Truth, normal events dont sell advertizing, sorry but is a fact.
What makes me sorry, is when is pilot error... We all learn, train and practice
to avoid this for years, but luck, one bad judging or simple Murphy law
and happens...
My prayers for the families of both pilots.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Don Walker <d3dw@msn.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker"
It's hard for me to imagine wings folding up on a Zodiac as stout as these things
are. Had to be something extreme going on...or forgotten. don
----- Original Message -----
From: KE6FIS@arrl.net
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
--> Zenith-List message posted by: >
>
> Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US
> From: xl >
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl >
>
>
> >From the Modesto Bee:
> http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html
>
I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two
eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during
flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the
reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught
my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how
accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to
see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last
few days, so that wasn't a factor...
Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site:
http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html
--
Bob Johnson
KE6FIS@arrl.net
CH601XL
---------------------------------
Message 25
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Yes, Frank, The home owner had his 5 minutes of fame and the News sold more advertizements,
this comments are the ones that sell the advertisments in the Media!
Lets all pray hard so we dont die flying , they will say "He died doing what
he liked", just to avoid the damage to our loved sport... Better in a Date...
same comment ;-)
:-) :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
"Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the
snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give
his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could
have!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
KE6FIS@arrl.net
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
--> Zenith-List message posted by:
>
> Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US
> From: xl
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl
>
>
> >From the Modesto Bee:
> http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html
>
I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two
eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during
flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the
reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught
my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how
accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to
see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last
few days, so that wasn't a factor...
Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site:
http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html
--
Bob Johnson
KE6FIS@arrl.net
CH601XL
---------------------------------
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
In a message dated 2/9/2006 10:11:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dgarrou@hunton.com writes:
(1) a source for the claim that green scotchbrite contains iron oxide
abrasives
(2) a source for the claim that iron oxide abrasives are very very bad to
use on aluminum
(3) a source for the claim that small particles of iron oxide abrasives will
actually embed themselves in the aluminum
(4) a source for the claim that these embedded particles then contribute to
dissimilar metal corrosion processes
(5) any evidence that any aluminum sheet anywhere has been corroded or
damaged in this fashion.
I can only guess that this scotchbrite rumor got started by Zenair news
issue #84. The back page shows a chart supplied by Zenith stating that
Scotch-Brite "S" pads are "prohibited" on aluminum. But the "A" pads are O.K.
However, someone posted that the MSDS for the pads shows them as being
made with aluminum oxide. If that is true,and I would believe the MSDS, then
they are fine on Aluminum.
Iron oxide abrasives? I wonder if they mean silicone carbide, which is
bad for aluminum.
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | ZAC Construction Manual Question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
Can someone please explain item 6 on p. 18 of the Construction Manual? It
states the following:
"Bolt holes, (AN / MS hardware) drill the bolt holes first, then radius the
part (radius is from the center of the bolt hole to the edge of the part).
Position the part with reference to the bolt hole, then mark the rivet
line."
I'm not able to picture what the building scenario that these instructions
apply to, or what is being accomplished.
Thanks,
Dave Van Lanen
Madison, WI
601 XL
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | It could have landed on my house... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Frank,
There was a midair between two Cessna's in San
Diego this week, and a bunch of burning debris fell
into a neighborhood. You can imagine what the news
ran with. "It could have landed on my house," or
"this landed where my children play. If it was 2
hours 46 minutes and 28 seconds earlier, my child
would be dead." Somebody actually got a still picture
of the burning wingless airframe falling. To say it
was sensationalized is an understatement.
R/
Brandon
Painting airframe
Do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
> However, someone posted that the MSDS for the pads shows them as being
> made with aluminum oxide. If that is true,and I would believe the MSDS, then
> they are fine on Aluminum.
> Iron oxide abrasives? I wonder if they mean silicone carbide, which is
> bad for aluminum.
I believe you may have two different materials mixed up. Adding the E onto the
silicon in the above statement is actually a misnomer of the silicon carbide
material, and as such is a misrepresentation of the actual properties of the
material. Silicon carbide has a fairly widespread use in cutting technologies and
has many uses in the business of building aircraft (see the description of silicon
carbide below). Now the material "silicone" which is a rubbery material that also
has many uses in aircraft, primarily as a sealer, is very detrimental to the task
of getting paint to adhere to a surface. It is an absolute no-no in any area of
composite manufacturing as it will affect the bond strength and integrity of a
composite layup. If you get silicone on a surface to be painted it is almost
impossible to remove completely, and your paint won't stick! Solvents will not
cut
cured silicone and it will probably require some process that does abrade the
metal to some extent to remove it. If you are going to use silicone as a sealer
(I
used high temp red to seal my firewall, and black to seal around the neck of my
header tank where it protrudes through the top skin), apply the silicone only
after painting. And that's about all the two dollar words I've got for today.
Mike Sinclair N701TD
Silicon Carbide is the only chemical compound of carbon and silicon. It was
originally produced by a high temperature electro-chemical reaction of sand and
carbon. Silicon carbide is an excellent abrasive and has been produced and made
into grinding wheels and other abrasive products for over one hundred years. Today
the material has been developed into a high quality technical grade ceramic with
very good mechanical properties. It is used in abrasives, refractories, ceramics,
and numerous high-performance applications. The material can also be made an
electrical conductor and has applications in resistance heating, flame igniters
and electronic components. Structural and wear applications are constantly
developing.
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
Mike and flydog....
I am very certain the "DARK GREEN" (grey???) scotchbrite is the "S" type,
and doing some searching <finally found it on a European 3m website that I
cannot find the link for>
this "S" type is indeed Silicone Carbide
So, I scrubbed some of the surfaces of my spar layup with this, painted it
with NAPA self etching primer (which seemed to stick VERY well....)..
SO, what detriment does the silicon carbide have to aluminum... I have many
many hours on the parts that I "scuffed" with these pads....
Thanks
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sinclair
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
> However, someone posted that the MSDS for the pads shows them as
being
> made with aluminum oxide. If that is true,and I would believe the MSDS,
then
> they are fine on Aluminum.
> Iron oxide abrasives? I wonder if they mean silicone carbide, which
is
> bad for aluminum.
I believe you may have two different materials mixed up. Adding the E onto
the
silicon in the above statement is actually a misnomer of the silicon carbide
material, and as such is a misrepresentation of the actual properties of the
material. Silicon carbide has a fairly widespread use in cutting
technologies and
has many uses in the business of building aircraft (see the description of
silicon
carbide below). Now the material "silicone" which is a rubbery material that
also
has many uses in aircraft, primarily as a sealer, is very detrimental to the
task
of getting paint to adhere to a surface. It is an absolute no-no in any area
of
composite manufacturing as it will affect the bond strength and integrity of
a
composite layup. If you get silicone on a surface to be painted it is almost
impossible to remove completely, and your paint won't stick! Solvents will
not cut
cured silicone and it will probably require some process that does abrade
the
metal to some extent to remove it. If you are going to use silicone as a
sealer (I
used high temp red to seal my firewall, and black to seal around the neck of
my
header tank where it protrudes through the top skin), apply the silicone
only
after painting. And that's about all the two dollar words I've got for
today.
Mike Sinclair N701TD
Silicon Carbide is the only chemical compound of carbon and silicon. It was
originally produced by a high temperature electro-chemical reaction of sand
and
carbon. Silicon carbide is an excellent abrasive and has been produced and
made
into grinding wheels and other abrasive products for over one hundred years.
Today
the material has been developed into a high quality technical grade ceramic
with
very good mechanical properties. It is used in abrasives, refractories,
ceramics,
and numerous high-performance applications. The material can also be made an
electrical conductor and has applications in resistance heating, flame
igniters
and electronic components. Structural and wear applications are constantly
developing.
--
--
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: ZAC Construction Manual Question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Dave,
To me it means drill the bolt holes first, then trim the part. Look at the lower
hinge braket of the rudder (601XL) if you make that part out of flat stock
it is easier to put the holes in before forming or trimming. The radius they
are talking about is the outer trim around the hole. Once the part is positioned
(hinge is lined up and so is the rudder) then layout the rivet line.
Hope that helps,
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder
Read this topic online here:
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