---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/10/06: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:15 AM - Re: Ye Olde Nose Geare Strute (steveadams) 2. 05:15 AM - Re: green scotchbrite and corrosion (steveadams) 3. 06:03 AM - 601 HDS Kit + Jabiru 3300A Engine + FWF for sale + Extras (Nate and Rusty Schiff) 4. 06:22 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Weston, Jim) 5. 06:24 AM - Re: green scotchbrite and corrosion (Weston, Jim) 6. 06:39 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Weston, Jim) 7. 07:07 AM - Re: 0.02 worth (owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com) 8. 07:55 AM - Filiform corrosion (was "The attack of the killer scotchbrite") (Carlos Sa) 9. 08:10 AM - Re: N105RH () 10. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Ye Olde Nose Geare Strute (Gary Gower) 11. 09:01 AM - Re: N105RH (Don Walker) 12. 09:01 AM - Nutplates or rivnuts (Jeff Small) 13. 09:09 AM - Re: N105RH (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 14. 09:32 AM - Re: N105RH (japhillipsga@aol.com) 15. 09:43 AM - Re: N105RH (Dale Mahan) 16. 09:43 AM - Re: Nutplates or rivnuts (Ron Culver) 17. 09:46 AM - Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (Gig Giacona) 18. 09:46 AM - RE CH 601 XL Flaps (David Brown) 19. 09:50 AM - Re: N105RH (Don Walker) 20. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (Craig Payne) 21. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (Zodie Rocket) 22. 02:01 PM - RE : Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (repeated so that it gets archived) (Carlos Sa) 23. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (JOHN STARN) 24. 06:23 PM - Re: N105RH. (Gary Gower) 25. 06:26 PM - Re: N105RH.. (Gary Gower) 26. 06:31 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Flydog1966@aol.com) 27. 08:41 PM - ZAC Construction Manual Question (Dave VanLanen) 28. 09:01 PM - It could have landed on my house... (Brandon Tucker) 29. 09:01 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Mike Sinclair) 30. 10:28 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (B Johnson) 31. 10:35 PM - Re: ZAC Construction Manual Question (Ron Lendon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:36 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Ye Olde Nose Geare Strute From: "steveadams" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" I wouldn't accept it, nor would I agree to fix it myself. ZAC should replace it or fix it for you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11212#11212 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:37 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: green scotchbrite and corrosion From: "steveadams" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" Classic green scotch-brite corrosion! [Wink] Seriously, I am not familiar with the conversion coating system you are using. However, with alumiprep or alodine, if it is not rinsed well you can see similar white areas appear. Since this developed so quickly after the treatment, I would suspect a similar cause. I would try it again, making sure that you really rinse the parts well after the treatment. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11210#11210 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:41 AM PST US From: "Nate and Rusty Schiff" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 HDS Kit + Jabiru 3300A Engine + FWF for sale + Extras --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Nate and Rusty Schiff" 601HDS Kit, Jabiru 3300A engine new in crate, fire wall forward, most engine instruments, strobes, warning lights, running lights, landing lights, canopy kit, brakes kit, leading edge tanks, for sale. Tail feathers 98 percent. Port wing ready for wiring and plumbing. Good workmanship. Fully documented and logged. Zenith Bill of Sale. EAA inspected. Best bet is to arrange pickup in South Carolina. Email if interested natrus2710t@yahoo.com for inventory. Will reply when inventory completed. Best offer over undisclosed reserve buys all. To crate completed components will be to expensive for buyer so think pick up. Non current medical and no time to complete prompts sale. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE From: "Weston, Jim" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" Doug, I really am from Missouri. Grew up in the St. Louis area. So why don't you "show me" and try the iron oxide on yours. Let me know how it comes out. ;-) (The wink means that I'm just kidding.) To attempt a partial answer to items 3 & 4. (I'm at work and don't have access to any of my reference books.) I believe it was either in the Tony Bengalis (not sure about the spelling of his name)book about homebuilding, or the book that I bought about aircraft painting before I painted my 601HDS, but one of the two (probably the painting book) made the statements that I mentioned. As I mentioned in my original post, I don't know anything about the color coding of these scouring pads. Have fun, Jim Weston Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou, Douglas Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Okay, yours is the kind of post that gets the evil Scotchbrite internet world humming. It's time to apply the scientific process. I'm not saying you're wrong -- at this point I'm WAAAAY too ignorant to stake out my position -- but I'm from Missouri. (Figuratively, and thus unlike our 801 kit, which is from Missouri literally.) Anyway, do you have: (1) a source for the claim that green scotchbrite contains iron oxide abrasives (2) a source for the claim that iron oxide abrasives are very very bad to use on aluminum (3) a source for the claim that small particles of iron oxide abrasives will actually embed themselves in the aluminum (4) a source for the claim that these embedded particles then contribute to dissimilar metal corrosion processes (5) any evidence that any aluminum sheet anywhere has been corroded or damaged in this fashion. I'll take the "WE DON'T WANT CORROSION" part as a given. It seems to me that whatever the heck is in green scotchbrite, steps 3 and 4 are the really questionable steps here. Meanwhile, we seem to have anecdotal evidence that 5 hasn't yet occurred. Clearly we need to ask those Ph.D. corrosion types this question. That was a really interesting post (unlike my blather....) Cheers Doug Garrou Project801 www.garrou.com -----Original Message----- Time: 10:51:10 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE From: "Weston, Jim" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" Ok, this is getting really fun. So I can't resist to put in my two cents. I don't know about the color coding, but the problem is that some pads are manufactured with Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive, and some are manufactured with Iron Oxide as the abrasive. Iron Oxide is very very very bad to use on aluminum. During the process of scrubbing the aluminum small particles of iron oxide are embedded within the aluminum. The contact between dissimilar metals and the rusting action of the iron causes corrosion to form. WE DON'T WANT CORROSION ON OUR ALUMINUM AIRPLANES. I may have the physics/chemistry of the situation a bit wrong, but the effect is the same. Unless you figure out the color code issue, buy your scotch brite type of pads at the local auto paint shop and make sure that the abrasive is aluminum. Jim Weston Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou, Douglas Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:11 AM Subject: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" --> For those who have used green Scotchbrite, fear not: if this product results in the destruction of your airframe, I will represent your bereaved relatives and estate against 3M -- pro bono. Seriously, what could a green Scotchbrite possibly do to aluminum sheet that would damage it?!? True, I'm nobody's idea of an engineer -- you can trust me on that, or you could just ask the Chief Engineer for Project 801, where my official position apparently is "chief self-inflicted injury receiver." But in any event, my pea-brain can't get itself around the idea of a color-coded killer Scotchbrite. I am, however, starting to get nervous. Now, whenever I see the green Scotchbrite on the shelf at Project 801 HQ, that evil bad-guy music from Star Wars starts playing in my head. I also think that aircraft listed for sale in Trade-a-Plane should have to identify total time on the airframe, total time on the engine since overhaul, and whether a green Scotchbrite has ever been within 75 feet of the aircraft. Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't be too careful. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored. -----Original Message----- > > > > Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No > > good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:36 AM PST US From: japhillipsga@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention: Alodine and Zinc Chromate: folow ups, pics and scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com Dan, the brown or maroon pad it courser than the green. The reason there may be some hesitation on our part to say what is right or wrong is that we are not sure exactly what and when you plan to do with the metal. On my XL I used the maroon pads to clean and scuff the metal before re cleaning with lacquer thinner and wax /grease cleaner then priming with epoxy primer. When the epoxy seals corrosion is dead. Best of luck, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Dan Morehouse Sent: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:10:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention: Alodine and Zinc Chromate: folow ups, pics and scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Morehouse Thanks everybody for being thankful. I've taken so much from this group over the past several months, so it's nice to add something. I'll be asking a few follow up questions to these guys in a little while, so please post any you have. I'll ask about the stain 'shadow' that remains or recurrs. I was told it's fine to paint over, but I will double check to make sure it would be nothing but a minor cosmetic defect. I hit the aluminum with a Blendes drum and also with Alumiprep and scotchbrite for the first time last night. The Alumiprep didn't work so-so. I used a GREEN scotchbrite and maybe 20# hand pressure after mixing the Alumiprep 1:2, the highest suggested mix ratio. Did that after a 6-8 minute dwell time. The Blendex drum on an angle grinder by itself worked much better. It looked like that stain shadow was left after an initial pass using 10-20# pressure on the grinder. It was much shinier and the shadow was only noticeable at certain reflective angles. I'm not sure this is what Dr. Dean talked about or not. I was able to get rid of it with a second pass and twice as much pressure. If this will be the interior side, I might not even have to do that. One of my questions I'll ask. I emailed a few pics of this to the list. I'm told it may take a few days to post and the group will be notified. Finally, it seems there's a debate on the grade of scotchbrite to be used. I'm using green and have heard others say maroon is better. Is that a finer or coarser grade? Cheers, Dan --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:21 AM PST US From: japhillipsga@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Propeller Balancing --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com Jeff, Spruce has (had) an inexpensive plug, line level, string device for sale to balance props. Saw it, but have not used it. Seem similar devices in other DIY plane building books, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey J Paris Sent: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:55:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Zenith-List: Propeller Balancing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris" --> Guru's of the Zenith List, I've Googled without much luck, but does anyone have an inexpensive way, directions, instructions to balance ones' wooden propeller? I'm curious to see what has to be said? Thank you for your time and consideration. Jeff Paris N196ZP CH601XL Jabiru 3300 45 hours in the air and loving every minute of it!!!! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:36 PM PST US From: "B Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" Jim, It appears that what I have (not actually "green" per-say, looks more like army green) is "silicon carbide" any thoughts on that??? More fun??? Bruce Johnson Hoping my Sonex doesnt fall out of the sky because I bought cheep surplus scotch=brite. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston, Jim Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 12:46 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" Ok, this is getting really fun. So I can't resist to put in my two cents. I don't know about the color coding, but the problem is that some pads are manufactured with Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive, and some are manufactured with Iron Oxide as the abrasive. Iron Oxide is very very very bad to use on aluminum. During the process of scrubbing the aluminum small particles of iron oxide are embedded within the aluminum. The contact between dissimilar metals and the rusting action of the iron causes corrosion to form. WE DON'T WANT CORROSION ON OUR ALUMINUM AIRPLANES. I may have the physics/chemistry of the situation a bit wrong, but the effect is the same. Unless you figure out the color code issue, buy your scotch brite type of pads at the local auto paint shop and make sure that the abrasive is aluminum. Jim Weston Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou, Douglas Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:11 AM Subject: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" --> For those who have used green Scotchbrite, fear not: if this product results in the destruction of your airframe, I will represent your bereaved relatives and estate against 3M -- pro bono. Seriously, what could a green Scotchbrite possibly do to aluminum sheet that would damage it?!? True, I'm nobody's idea of an engineer -- you can trust me on that, or you could just ask the Chief Engineer for Project 801, where my official position apparently is "chief self-inflicted injury receiver." But in any event, my pea-brain can't get itself around the idea of a color-coded killer Scotchbrite. I am, however, starting to get nervous. Now, whenever I see the green Scotchbrite on the shelf at Project 801 HQ, that evil bad-guy music from Star Wars starts playing in my head. I also think that aircraft listed for sale in Trade-a-Plane should have to identify total time on the airframe, total time on the engine since overhaul, and whether a green Scotchbrite has ever been within 75 feet of the aircraft. Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't be too careful. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored. -----Original Message----- > > > > Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No > > good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff. -- -- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: green scotchbrite From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" It looks like the green pads are for scouring. Here is a link to 3m's site: -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10918#10918 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:56 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" --> Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't be too careful. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored. ////////////////////////////////////////// Ya know, The image of green colored scotchbrite hair flashed through my brain for a second. All I saw was a Don King looking guy at a salad bar... EEEWWWWWW... Of course, DO NOT ARCHIVE. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't be too careful. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored. ////////////////////////////////////////// Ya know,The image ofgreen colored scotchbrite hair flashed through my brain for a second. All I saw was a Don King looking guy at a salad bar... EEEWWWWWW... G Of course, DO NOT ARCHIVE. BenHaas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: green scotchbrite and corrosion From: "Weston, Jim" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" I looked at your pictures. That is what is called filliform corrosion. The best way to stop it is to lightly sand the area with some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper then spray it with ACF50 or a similar product that is meant for the treatment of corrosion. Aircraft Spruce sells the ACF50 is spray cans or by the gallon to treat an entire aircraft. By the way, filliform corrosion once started will continue to spread like roots from a tree. Don't use the part until you've killed the corrosion. Jim Weston Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mcr01steiner@mac.com Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: green scotchbrite and corrosion --> Zenith-List message posted by: mcr01steiner@mac.com The operating instructions that came with the Sanchem Safegard CC-6100 state to use the provided abrasive pad to prepare the surface. Since there was none supplied I used some of the green stuff that I've bought at a local store. A couple of days after the conversion coating treatment the parts looked like this: http://homepage.mac.com/csteiner/PhotoAlbum9.html . Looks like corrosion to me ! Any ideas what to do with these parts now? I' ve treated the stabilizer skeleton parts and riveted them befor I noticed the problem. Christoph Steiner 601 XL Am Montag, 06.02.06, um 22:01 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Thilo Kind: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff. Happy building Thilo Kind ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE From: "Weston, Jim" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" Ok, I'm going to have to hang my head low in shame. I just went to the 3M website and looked up the info on their Scotch-Brite pads. Here's the quote from their Q&A section: "How are Scotch-Brite(r) scrub sponges made? The sponge is made of ground wood pulp; the scouring surface of nylon fiber." The only thing that I can figure is that, since it's been a few years ago since I painted my plane, I must have mixed up things that I read in the book about not using steel wool and conversations that I had with a local aircraft painter about the use of various different scotch-brite products. It looks like you're all ok with the scotch brite. Their website indicated that the color coding was just an indication of how abrasive the pad was. Hope this helps, Jim Weston Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston, Jim Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:17 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" Doug, I really am from Missouri. Grew up in the St. Louis area. So why don't you "show me" and try the iron oxide on yours. Let me know how it comes out. ;-) (The wink means that I'm just kidding.) To attempt a partial answer to items 3 & 4. (I'm at work and don't have access to any of my reference books.) I believe it was either in the Tony Bengalis (not sure about the spelling of his name)book about homebuilding, or the book that I bought about aircraft painting before I painted my 601HDS, but one of the two (probably the painting book) made the statements that I mentioned. As I mentioned in my original post, I don't know anything about the color coding of these scouring pads. Have fun, Jim Weston Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou, Douglas Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Okay, yours is the kind of post that gets the evil Scotchbrite internet world humming. It's time to apply the scientific process. I'm not saying you're wrong -- at this point I'm WAAAAY too ignorant to stake out my position -- but I'm from Missouri. (Figuratively, and thus unlike our 801 kit, which is from Missouri literally.) Anyway, do you have: (1) a source for the claim that green scotchbrite contains iron oxide abrasives (2) a source for the claim that iron oxide abrasives are very very bad to use on aluminum (3) a source for the claim that small particles of iron oxide abrasives will actually embed themselves in the aluminum (4) a source for the claim that these embedded particles then contribute to dissimilar metal corrosion processes (5) any evidence that any aluminum sheet anywhere has been corroded or damaged in this fashion. I'll take the "WE DON'T WANT CORROSION" part as a given. It seems to me that whatever the heck is in green scotchbrite, steps 3 and 4 are the really questionable steps here. Meanwhile, we seem to have anecdotal evidence that 5 hasn't yet occurred. Clearly we need to ask those Ph.D. corrosion types this question. That was a really interesting post (unlike my blather....) Cheers Doug Garrou Project801 www.garrou.com -----Original Message----- Time: 10:51:10 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE From: "Weston, Jim" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" Ok, this is getting really fun. So I can't resist to put in my two cents. I don't know about the color coding, but the problem is that some pads are manufactured with Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive, and some are manufactured with Iron Oxide as the abrasive. Iron Oxide is very very very bad to use on aluminum. During the process of scrubbing the aluminum small particles of iron oxide are embedded within the aluminum. The contact between dissimilar metals and the rusting action of the iron causes corrosion to form. WE DON'T WANT CORROSION ON OUR ALUMINUM AIRPLANES. I may have the physics/chemistry of the situation a bit wrong, but the effect is the same. Unless you figure out the color code issue, buy your scotch brite type of pads at the local auto paint shop and make sure that the abrasive is aluminum. Jim Weston Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou, Douglas Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:11 AM Subject: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" --> For those who have used green Scotchbrite, fear not: if this product results in the destruction of your airframe, I will represent your bereaved relatives and estate against 3M -- pro bono. Seriously, what could a green Scotchbrite possibly do to aluminum sheet that would damage it?!? True, I'm nobody's idea of an engineer -- you can trust me on that, or you could just ask the Chief Engineer for Project 801, where my official position apparently is "chief self-inflicted injury receiver." But in any event, my pea-brain can't get itself around the idea of a color-coded killer Scotchbrite. I am, however, starting to get nervous. Now, whenever I see the green Scotchbrite on the shelf at Project 801 HQ, that evil bad-guy music from Star Wars starts playing in my head. I also think that aircraft listed for sale in Trade-a-Plane should have to identify total time on the airframe, total time on the engine since overhaul, and whether a green Scotchbrite has ever been within 75 feet of the aircraft. Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't be too careful. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored. -----Original Message----- > > > > Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No > > good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:36 AM PST US From: japhillipsga@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention: Alodine and Zinc Chromate: folow ups, pics and scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com Dan, the brown or maroon pad it courser than the green. The reason there may be some hesitation on our part to say what is right or wrong is that we are not sure exactly what and when you plan to do with the metal. On my XL I used the maroon pads to clean and scuff the metal before re cleaning with lacquer thinner and wax /grease cleaner then priming with epoxy primer. When the epoxy seals corrosion is dead. Best of luck, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Dan Morehouse Sent: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:10:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention: Alodine and Zinc Chromate: folow ups, pics and scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Morehouse Thanks everybody for being thankful. I've taken so much from this group over the past several months, so it's nice to add something. I'll be asking a few follow up questions to these guys in a little while, so please post any you have. I'll ask about the stain 'shadow' that remains or recurrs. I was told it's fine to paint over, but I will double check to make sure it would be nothing but a minor cosmetic defect. I hit the aluminum with a Blendes drum and also with Alumiprep and scotchbrite for the first time last night. The Alumiprep didn't work so-so. I used a GREEN scotchbrite and maybe 20# hand pressure after mixing the Alumiprep 1:2, the highest suggested mix ratio. Did that after a 6-8 minute dwell time. The Blendex drum on an angle grinder by itself worked much better. It looked like that stain shadow was left after an initial pass using 10-20# pressure on the grinder. It was much shinier and the shadow was only noticeable at certain reflective angles. I'm not sure this is what Dr. Dean talked about or not. I was able to get rid of it with a second pass and twice as much pressure. If this will be the interior side, I might not even have to do that. One of my questions I'll ask. I emailed a few pics of this to the list. I'm told it may take a few days to post and the group will be notified. Finally, it seems there's a debate on the grade of scotchbrite to be used. I'm using green and have heard others say maroon is better. Is that a finer or coarser grade? Cheers, Dan --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:21 AM PST US From: japhillipsga@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Propeller Balancing --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com Jeff, Spruce has (had) an inexpensive plug, line level, string device for sale to balance props. Saw it, but have not used it. Seem similar devices in other DIY plane building books, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey J Paris Sent: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:55:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Zenith-List: Propeller Balancing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris" --> Guru's of the Zenith List, I've Googled without much luck, but does anyone have an inexpensive way, directions, instructions to balance ones' wooden propeller? I'm curious to see what has to be said? Thank you for your time and consideration. Jeff Paris N196ZP CH601XL Jabiru 3300 45 hours in the air and loving every minute of it!!!! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:36 PM PST US From: "B Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" Jim, It appears that what I have (not actually "green" per-say, looks more like army green) is "silicon carbide" any thoughts on that??? More fun??? Bruce Johnson Hoping my Sonex doesnt fall out of the sky because I bought cheep surplus scotch=brite. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston, Jim Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 12:46 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" Ok, this is getting really fun. So I can't resist to put in my two cents. I don't know about the color coding, but the problem is that some pads are manufactured with Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive, and some are manufactured with Iron Oxide as the abrasive. Iron Oxide is very very very bad to use on aluminum. During the process of scrubbing the aluminum small particles of iron oxide are embedded within the aluminum. The contact between dissimilar metals and the rusting action of the iron causes corrosion to form. WE DON'T WANT CORROSION ON OUR ALUMINUM AIRPLANES. I may have the physics/chemistry of the situation a bit wrong, but the effect is the same. Unless you figure out the color code issue, buy your scotch brite type of pads at the local auto paint shop and make sure that the abrasive is aluminum. Jim Weston Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou, Douglas Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:11 AM Subject: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" --> For those who have used green Scotchbrite, fear not: if this product results in the destruction of your airframe, I will represent your bereaved relatives and estate against 3M -- pro bono. Seriously, what could a green Scotchbrite possibly do to aluminum sheet that would damage it?!? True, I'm nobody's idea of an engineer -- you can trust me on that, or you could just ask the Chief Engineer for Project 801, where my official position apparently is "chief self-inflicted injury receiver." But in any event, my pea-brain can't get itself around the idea of a color-coded killer Scotchbrite. I am, however, starting to get nervous. Now, whenever I see the green Scotchbrite on the shelf at Project 801 HQ, that evil bad-guy music from Star Wars starts playing in my head. I also think that aircraft listed for sale in Trade-a-Plane should have to identify total time on the airframe, total time on the engine since overhaul, and whether a green Scotchbrite has ever been within 75 feet of the aircraft. Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't be too careful. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored. -----Original Message----- > > > > Green dust??? Sounds, like you are using the green Scotchbrite. No > > good for aluminum. Use only the darl red stuff. -- -- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: green scotchbrite From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" It looks like the green pads are for scouring. Here is a link to 3m's site: -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10918#10918 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:56 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" --> Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't be too careful. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored. ////////////////////////////////////////// Ya know, The image of green colored scotchbrite hair flashed through my brain for a second. All I saw was a Don King looking guy at a salad bar... EEEWWWWWW... Of course, DO NOT ARCHIVE. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com Finally, I have taken to wearing a maroon Scotchbrite on a string around my neck when I sleep, to ward off the evil green spirit. Really, you just can't be too careful. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. You know you can trust me: My hair is sort of maroon-colored. ////////////////////////////////////////// Ya know,The image ofgreen colored scotchbrite hair flashed through my brain for a second. All I saw was a Don King looking guy at a salad bar... EEEWWWWWW... G Of course, DO NOT ARCHIVE. BenHaas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:53 AM PST US From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 0.02 worth --> Zenith-List message posted by: Oh my. Oh, my my my. Brad, you have made a critical and fundamental error here: you have actually gathered facts. Your actions are entirely contrary to the spirit of the web, in that they are NOT likely to further the propagation of false information and the creation of needless concern. This kind of conduct is, in a word, Un-American. It's much better to have no faint idea of the facts, but still authoritatively post that green Scotchbrite contains "iron oxides" (rust?) and will therefore cause CORROSION (use of capital letters is important in matters like this) because of the dissimilar metals involved. I trust you will ponder your transgression and address this huge character flaw. Repent!! :) Cheers Doug Garrou Project801 www.garrou.com do not archive, please -----Original Message----- Time: 02:49:49 PM PST US From: "Brad Cohen" Subject: Zenith-List: 0.02 worth --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brad Cohen" O.K., I have been sitting back watching the Scotch-Brite "discussion" from the sidelines, so now I am gonna weigh in. I called 3M consumer division this afternoon and asked about the abrasive agent in the green pads I was told by a rep from 3M that the abrasive in the green and maroon Scotch-Brite pads both is Alumimun Oxide. As a matter of fact, she told me that the only difference between the two was the abrasiveness (grit), the green more coarse. She is supposed to be faxing me the MSDS/product description showing Aluminum Oxide as the abrasive agent. Hopefully it will be legible enough to scan into the computer and save as a .DOC file,. If those two stipulations are met, I will try to make it availiable to any other interested people/persons/builders...etc Just my $0.02 worth Brad Cohen 601xl tail & wings Scotch-Brited, prepped and primed! Archieve at your leisure ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:59 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: Filiform corrosion (was "The attack of the killer scotchbrite") --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa There are several web pages discussing filiform corrosion, and none seem to indicate previous contact with you-know-what. Here is one extract from a NASA site: ********** "This type of corrosion occurs under painted or plated surfaces when moisture permeates the coating. Lacquers and "quick-dry" paints are most susceptible to the problem. Their use should be avoided unless absence of an adverse effect has been proven by field experience. Where a coating is required, it should exhibit low water vapor transmission characteristics and excellent adhesion. Zinc-rich coatings should also be considered for coating carbon steel because of their cathodic protection quality." ********** Nanjing University: ********** "Filiform corrosion, sometimes also called "wormtrack corrosion", is a very characteristic type of (oxygen concentration cell) corrosion that occurs under some coatings in the form of randomly distributed threadlike filaments. It most commonly occurs on aluminum alloys coated with an organic coating, but other examples exist (e.g., on nickel alloys covered with a thick oxide layer in high-temperature chloride solutions). The filaments grow along the metal / coating interface at typical rates up to 1mm/day (0.04 in/d). The moving end of the filament is called the "head", and the remainder of the track is called the "tail"." ********** Some URLs for your reference: NASA: http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/html/filicor.htm Florida State University: http://www.chem.fsu.edu/editors/STEINBOCK/projects/ffc/ffc.htm Department of Mechanical Engineering, Nanjing University of Chemical Technology: http://httd.njuct.edu.cn/MatWeb/corrosie/c_fil.htm There are many more hits, if you care to search. Cheers Carlos --- "Weston, Jim" a crit : > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" > > I looked at your pictures. That is what is called filliform corrosion. > The best way to stop it is to lightly sand the area with some 400 grit > wet/dry sandpaper then spray it with ACF50 or a similar product that is > meant for the treatment of corrosion. Aircraft Spruce sells the ACF50 > is spray cans or by the gallon to treat an entire aircraft. > > By the way, filliform corrosion once started will continue to spread > like roots from a tree. Don't use the part until you've killed the > corrosion. > > Jim Weston > Concord, Ga. Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ? magasinage.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US > From: xl > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > >From the Modesto Bee: > http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html > I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last few days, so that wasn't a factor... Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site: http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html -- Bob Johnson KE6FIS@arrl.net CH601XL ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:24 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Ye Olde Nose Geare Strute --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower I am sure there will be no problem at all for ZAC to replace (or repair) that nose gear. They do sometimes (just for service), send parts WE as builders damage and they send it even in some cases free of charge! Just ask them for instrucctions and you will recieve the part very soon. Given their shop size. They give Better service than we can spect, same from Chez... Yes, First hand experience. Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S Flying from Chapala, Mexico. steveadams wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" I wouldn't accept it, nor would I agree to fix it myself. ZAC should replace it or fix it for you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11212#11212 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:51 AM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" It's hard for me to imagine wings folding up on a Zodiac as stout as these things are. Had to be something extreme going on...or forgotten. don ----- Original Message ----- From: KE6FIS@arrl.net To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 10:10 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > > Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US > From: xl > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > > >From the Modesto Bee: > http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html > I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last few days, so that wasn't a factor... Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site: http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html -- Bob Johnson KE6FIS@arrl.net CH601XL ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:51 AM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: Nutplates or rivnuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" I agree with Cy, the washers under the rivnuts is not a good idea. In fact as I've said here before, after about 50 years of messing around this stuff I only used rivnuts for interior panels and things like that . In fact I don't use them at all anymore. Go to the effort of installing "Nutplates" (there are many different kinds for different applications) especially in locations where you will be removing the screws or bolts on a regular basis. Since the introduction of 3/32" pull or blind rivets used for attachment, it is fairly easy to install nutplates. No need to use a rivet gun and bucking bar . Go for nutplates every time and leave those antique rivnuts in the bin! +++ Also agree with Cy and Jim. I think most guys lean toward rivnuts because they seem to be easy to install. They are, but the first one that spins on you when you're far from home and need to effect a repair by taking off a panel or fitting...well, Murphy got ya. After the last go around on the list about these two I typed up a short tutorial on installing nutplates and sent it off to ch601.org but they didn't see fit to use it in their Builders Resources. I still have it, complete with a few jpegs if anyone wants it. regards jeff ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:21 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N105RH From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could have! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KE6FIS@arrl.net Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US > From: xl > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > >From the Modesto Bee: > http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html > I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last few days, so that wasn't a factor... Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site: http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html -- Bob Johnson KE6FIS@arrl.net CH601XL ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:39 AM PST US From: japhillipsga@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: japhillipsga@aol.com Frank, I agree that such statements by 'civilians' demeans all of us. The news vultures must think that as we are trying to maintain hope of life and doing all we can to survive on the way down we look for the odd school bus or senior citizen home to slam into. Just another ill example that blood and pain sells. Best to you and my endless sympathy for the families of those lost. Bill Phillips N505WP 601XL-3300 -----Original Message----- From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:07:47 -0800 Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could have! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KE6FIS@arrl.net Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US > From: xl > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > >From the Modesto Bee: > http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html > I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last few days, so that wasn't a factor... Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site: http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html -- Bob Johnson KE6FIS@arrl.net CH601XL ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:06 AM PST US From: Dale Mahan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dale Mahan No Frank, The pilot actually DID give his life and kept from crashing into the house at the same time. Nuf' said. Dale Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > >And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the >snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give >his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could >have! > >Frank > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >KE6FIS@arrl.net >Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: > > > >>Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US >>From: xl >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH >> >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl >> >> >>>From the Modesto Bee: >>http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html >> >> >> > >I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two >eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during >flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the >reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught >my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how >accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to >see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last >few days, so that wasn't a factor... > >Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site: > >http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:06 AM PST US From: Ron Culver Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nutplates or rivnuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Culver I would appreciate seeing that Jeff thanks for offering.. Best, Ron Culver Jeff Small wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > >I agree with Cy, the washers under the rivnuts is not a good idea. In fact >as I've said here before, after about 50 years of messing around this stuff >I only used rivnuts for interior panels and things like that . In fact I >don't use them at all anymore. Go to the effort of installing "Nutplates" >(there are many different kinds for different applications) especially in >locations where you will be removing the screws or bolts on a regular basis. >Since the introduction of 3/32" pull or blind rivets used for attachment, it >is fairly easy to install nutplates. No need to use a rivet gun and bucking >bar . Go for nutplates every time and leave those antique rivnuts in the >bin! > >+++ Also agree with Cy and Jim. I think most guys lean toward rivnuts because they seem to be easy to install. They are, but the first one that spins on you when you're far from home and need to effect a repair by taking off a panel or fitting...well, Murphy got ya. > >After the last go around on the list about these two I typed up a short tutorial on installing nutplates and sent it off to ch601.org but they didn't see fit to use it in their Builders Resources. I still have it, complete with a few jpegs if anyone wants it. > >regards jeff > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:34 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I too had the orginal braket but I needed to replace it. What the sent me had no bolt at all. The bolt (you select the length you need depending on mount) is a seperate part as is the nut.) THe new braket also has part of the mounting hardware for the canopy. -------- W.R. Gig Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11281#11281 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:34 AM PST US Subject: RE Zenith-List: CH 601 XL Flaps From: "David Brown" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Brown" I don't recall anyone addressing this question, so I will give it a go. I called Zenith and got Nick. He said that if the axis of the flap actuator rod and the flap hinge axis was concentric that only a 1/4" hole was needed through both the flap rib and the nylon control plate. When I pressed him about the orientation being shown 2 different ways, he replied that 1/4" hole could be drilled and then elongated only as necessary with a round file when the wing was trial fit to the airframe. David Brown CH601 XL -----Original Message----- On the CH 601 XL flaps part 6W1-3-1 (nylon control plate) has a 1/4" x 15mm slot in it. My question is does this slot also get put in the inboard end rib(6W1-1-1) or is it just a 1/4" hole in the rib? Thanks, Lee Francke CH 601 XL s/n: 6-5985 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:50 AM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" Yeah, Frank, why doesn't the rest of the world know how gracious us pilots really are? don do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 11:07 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could have! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KE6FIS@arrl.net Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > > Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US > From: xl > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > > >From the Modesto Bee: > http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html > I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last few days, so that wasn't a factor... Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site: http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html -- Bob Johnson KE6FIS@arrl.net CH601XL ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:16 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" How do you hold the nut while tightening the bolts? Isn't it on the pilot-side of the firewall? If so and the glare-shield is installed it could be very hard to reach the nut with a socket. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I too had the orginal braket but I needed to replace it. What the sent me had no bolt at all. The bolt (you select the length you need depending on mount) is a seperate part as is the nut.) THe new braket also has part of the mounting hardware for the canopy. -------- W.R. Gig Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11281#11281 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:30 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Isn't that why God allowed us to have children or grandchildren? cdngoose -----Original Message----- How do you hold the nut while tightening the bolts? Isn't it on the pilot-side of the firewall? If so and the glare-shield is installed it could be very hard to reach the nut with a socket. -- Craig do not archive -- 2/10/2006 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:13 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: RE : RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (repeated so that it gets archived) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa I think this one is worth keeping for future builders. As there was a "d* n*t archive" statement at the bottom of the thread, I am reposting Jim's note. Now back to building Carlos --- "Weston, Jim" a crit : > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" > > Ok, I'm going to have to hang my head low in shame. I just went to the > 3M website and looked up the info on their Scotch-Brite pads. Here's > the quote from their Q&A section: > > "How are Scotch-Brite(r) scrub sponges made? > The sponge is made of ground wood pulp; the scouring surface of nylon > fiber." > > The only thing that I can figure is that, since it's been a few years > ago since I painted my plane, I must have mixed up things that I read in > the book about not using steel wool and conversations that I had with a > local aircraft painter about the use of various different scotch-brite > products. > > It looks like you're all ok with the scotch brite. Their website > indicated that the color coding was just an indication of how abrasive > the pad was. > > Hope this helps, > Jim Weston > Concord, Ga. Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ? magasinage.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:51 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Grandkids work great but so do nut plates attached in advance. KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs > Isn't that why God allowed us to have children or grandchildren? > How do you hold the nut while tightening the bolts? Isn't it on the > pilot-side of the firewall? If so and the glare-shield is installed it > could > be very hard to reach the nut with a socket. > > -- Craig > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:53 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower They mention that the wings caught fire... Thats a diferent thing, normal in any hard crash with metal friction and gasoline fumes... so lets wait for the NTSB for the REAL causes, Media (worldwide) are bright Yellow, they SELL news not the Truth, normal events dont sell advertizing, sorry but is a fact. What makes me sorry, is when is pilot error... We all learn, train and practice to avoid this for years, but luck, one bad judging or simple Murphy law and happens... My prayers for the families of both pilots. Saludos Gary Gower. Don Walker wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" It's hard for me to imagine wings folding up on a Zodiac as stout as these things are. Had to be something extreme going on...or forgotten. don ----- Original Message ----- From: KE6FIS@arrl.net Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 10:10 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > > Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US > From: xl > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > > >From the Modesto Bee: > http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html > I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last few days, so that wasn't a factor... Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site: http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html -- Bob Johnson KE6FIS@arrl.net CH601XL --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:25 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N105RH.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Yes, Frank, The home owner had his 5 minutes of fame and the News sold more advertizements, this comments are the ones that sell the advertisments in the Media! Lets all pray hard so we dont die flying , they will say "He died doing what he liked", just to avoid the damage to our loved sport... Better in a Date... same comment ;-) :-) :-) Saludos Gary Gower "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" And "It could have crashed into my house"...This statement annoyed the snot out of me....Little does the home owner know the pilot would give his life to avoid him and his precious white picket fence if he could have! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KE6FIS@arrl.net Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Time: 10:46:43 AM PST US > From: xl > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N105RH > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > >From the Modesto Bee: > http://www.modbee.com/local/story/11785074p-12504056c.html > I saw this on the news on TV last night. Sad. They interviewed two eyewitnesses who both claimed that they saw one wing fold up during flight, and then the other. At the very end of the broadcast the reporter mentioned "the plane was called a Zenith Zodiac." That caught my attention for sure. The FAA/NTSB was investigating, and we know how accurate the news media is, so I'll be waiting for the NTSB report to see what really happened. It was clear and beautiful weather the last few days, so that wasn't a factor... Here's a link to a short article on the TV station's site: http://www.kcra.com/news/6878598/detail.html -- Bob Johnson KE6FIS@arrl.net CH601XL --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:41 PM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com In a message dated 2/9/2006 10:11:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dgarrou@hunton.com writes: (1) a source for the claim that green scotchbrite contains iron oxide abrasives (2) a source for the claim that iron oxide abrasives are very very bad to use on aluminum (3) a source for the claim that small particles of iron oxide abrasives will actually embed themselves in the aluminum (4) a source for the claim that these embedded particles then contribute to dissimilar metal corrosion processes (5) any evidence that any aluminum sheet anywhere has been corroded or damaged in this fashion. I can only guess that this scotchbrite rumor got started by Zenair news issue #84. The back page shows a chart supplied by Zenith stating that Scotch-Brite "S" pads are "prohibited" on aluminum. But the "A" pads are O.K. However, someone posted that the MSDS for the pads shows them as being made with aluminum oxide. If that is true,and I would believe the MSDS, then they are fine on Aluminum. Iron oxide abrasives? I wonder if they mean silicone carbide, which is bad for aluminum. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:18 PM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith-List: ZAC Construction Manual Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" Can someone please explain item 6 on p. 18 of the Construction Manual? It states the following: "Bolt holes, (AN / MS hardware) drill the bolt holes first, then radius the part (radius is from the center of the bolt hole to the edge of the part). Position the part with reference to the bolt hole, then mark the rivet line." I'm not able to picture what the building scenario that these instructions apply to, or what is being accomplished. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI 601 XL ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:56 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: It could have landed on my house... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Frank, There was a midair between two Cessna's in San Diego this week, and a bunch of burning debris fell into a neighborhood. You can imagine what the news ran with. "It could have landed on my house," or "this landed where my children play. If it was 2 hours 46 minutes and 28 seconds earlier, my child would be dead." Somebody actually got a still picture of the burning wingless airframe falling. To say it was sensationalized is an understatement. R/ Brandon Painting airframe Do not archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:56 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair > However, someone posted that the MSDS for the pads shows them as being > made with aluminum oxide. If that is true,and I would believe the MSDS, then > they are fine on Aluminum. > Iron oxide abrasives? I wonder if they mean silicone carbide, which is > bad for aluminum. I believe you may have two different materials mixed up. Adding the E onto the silicon in the above statement is actually a misnomer of the silicon carbide material, and as such is a misrepresentation of the actual properties of the material. Silicon carbide has a fairly widespread use in cutting technologies and has many uses in the business of building aircraft (see the description of silicon carbide below). Now the material "silicone" which is a rubbery material that also has many uses in aircraft, primarily as a sealer, is very detrimental to the task of getting paint to adhere to a surface. It is an absolute no-no in any area of composite manufacturing as it will affect the bond strength and integrity of a composite layup. If you get silicone on a surface to be painted it is almost impossible to remove completely, and your paint won't stick! Solvents will not cut cured silicone and it will probably require some process that does abrade the metal to some extent to remove it. If you are going to use silicone as a sealer (I used high temp red to seal my firewall, and black to seal around the neck of my header tank where it protrudes through the top skin), apply the silicone only after painting. And that's about all the two dollar words I've got for today. Mike Sinclair N701TD Silicon Carbide is the only chemical compound of carbon and silicon. It was originally produced by a high temperature electro-chemical reaction of sand and carbon. Silicon carbide is an excellent abrasive and has been produced and made into grinding wheels and other abrasive products for over one hundred years. Today the material has been developed into a high quality technical grade ceramic with very good mechanical properties. It is used in abrasives, refractories, ceramics, and numerous high-performance applications. The material can also be made an electrical conductor and has applications in resistance heating, flame igniters and electronic components. Structural and wear applications are constantly developing. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:51 PM PST US From: "B Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" Mike and flydog.... I am very certain the "DARK GREEN" (grey???) scotchbrite is the "S" type, and doing some searching this "S" type is indeed Silicone Carbide So, I scrubbed some of the surfaces of my spar layup with this, painted it with NAPA self etching primer (which seemed to stick VERY well....).. SO, what detriment does the silicon carbide have to aluminum... I have many many hours on the parts that I "scuffed" with these pads.... Thanks Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sinclair Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair > However, someone posted that the MSDS for the pads shows them as being > made with aluminum oxide. If that is true,and I would believe the MSDS, then > they are fine on Aluminum. > Iron oxide abrasives? I wonder if they mean silicone carbide, which is > bad for aluminum. I believe you may have two different materials mixed up. Adding the E onto the silicon in the above statement is actually a misnomer of the silicon carbide material, and as such is a misrepresentation of the actual properties of the material. Silicon carbide has a fairly widespread use in cutting technologies and has many uses in the business of building aircraft (see the description of silicon carbide below). Now the material "silicone" which is a rubbery material that also has many uses in aircraft, primarily as a sealer, is very detrimental to the task of getting paint to adhere to a surface. It is an absolute no-no in any area of composite manufacturing as it will affect the bond strength and integrity of a composite layup. If you get silicone on a surface to be painted it is almost impossible to remove completely, and your paint won't stick! Solvents will not cut cured silicone and it will probably require some process that does abrade the metal to some extent to remove it. If you are going to use silicone as a sealer (I used high temp red to seal my firewall, and black to seal around the neck of my header tank where it protrudes through the top skin), apply the silicone only after painting. And that's about all the two dollar words I've got for today. Mike Sinclair N701TD Silicon Carbide is the only chemical compound of carbon and silicon. It was originally produced by a high temperature electro-chemical reaction of sand and carbon. Silicon carbide is an excellent abrasive and has been produced and made into grinding wheels and other abrasive products for over one hundred years. Today the material has been developed into a high quality technical grade ceramic with very good mechanical properties. It is used in abrasives, refractories, ceramics, and numerous high-performance applications. The material can also be made an electrical conductor and has applications in resistance heating, flame igniters and electronic components. Structural and wear applications are constantly developing. -- -- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:18 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ZAC Construction Manual Question From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" Dave, To me it means drill the bolt holes first, then trim the part. Look at the lower hinge braket of the rudder (601XL) if you make that part out of flat stock it is easier to put the holes in before forming or trimming. The radius they are talking about is the outer trim around the hole. Once the part is positioned (hinge is lined up and so is the rudder) then layout the rivet line. Hope that helps, -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11388#11388