Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:28 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (Mike Sinclair)
2. 07:48 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (Lee Ross)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (Bryan Martin)
4. 08:00 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
5. 08:33 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (n801bh@netzero.com)
6. 09:24 AM - Jabiru FWF kit for the XL (Craig Payne)
7. 09:46 AM - Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs (Gig Giacona)
8. 10:03 AM - Re: Jabiru FWF kit for the XL (Jeff Davidson)
9. 10:28 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE (Flydog1966@aol.com)
10. 10:45 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (NYTerminat@aol.com)
11. 11:42 AM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (Edward Moody II)
12. 02:19 PM - [ Bill Naumuk ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
13. 02:19 PM - [ Bill Naumuk ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
14. 02:27 PM - [ Dan Morehouse ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
15. 02:44 PM - [ Craig Payne ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
16. 02:46 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (Flydog1966@aol.com)
17. 03:05 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (JOHN STARN)
18. 04:52 PM - Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? (Leo Gates)
19. 06:49 PM - Re: Jabiru FWF kit for the XL (Mike)
20. 07:32 PM - Marking sheet metal (George Swinford)
21. 07:34 PM - Re: Jabiru FWF kit for the XL (Craig Payne)
22. 08:59 PM - Construction Manual ? (lynn dingfelder)
23. 10:48 PM - Re: Construction Manual ? (Paul Mulwitz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Bruce
As stated in my previous post, silicon (spelled without an E) carbide is an
abrasive made from sand and carbon and is not a problem on aluminum. Silicone
(spelled with an E) usually has the word rubber after it, is used as a sealant,
make women's breasts larger, etc. and paint does not stick worth a darn. In your
reply ( and in other places including product descriptions) I see the two words
silicon and silicone being used interchangeably, and that dog don't hunt. If
that European 3M website said silicone carbide (with an E), rather than silicon
carbide (without an E), then they need to hire a new technical proofreader. You
can't mix and match on these two.
Mike
Do Not Archive
B Johnson wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>
> Mike and flydog....
>
> I am very certain the "DARK GREEN" (grey???) scotchbrite is the "S" type,
> and doing some searching <finally found it on a European 3m website that I
> cannot find the link for>
>
> this "S" type is indeed Silicone Carbide
>
> So, I scrubbed some of the surfaces of my spar layup with this, painted it
> with NAPA self etching primer (which seemed to stick VERY well....)..
>
> SO, what detriment does the silicon carbide have to aluminum... I have many
> many hours on the parts that I "scuffed" with these pads....
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lee Ross" <LRoss@cngmail.com>
I have listened to a discussion of scotchbrite pads for the last week and
I'm wondering if maybe next we can start a discussion of brooms or
dishwashing gloves? Im sure it will be everybit as exciting as our current
discussion.
Lee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sinclair
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide??
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Bruce
As stated in my previous post, silicon (spelled without an E) carbide is an
abrasive made from sand and carbon and is not a problem on aluminum.
Silicone
(spelled with an E) usually has the word rubber after it, is used as a
sealant,
make women's breasts larger, etc. and paint does not stick worth a darn. In
your
reply ( and in other places including product descriptions) I see the two
words
silicon and silicone being used interchangeably, and that dog don't hunt. If
that European 3M website said silicone carbide (with an E), rather than
silicon
carbide (without an E), then they need to hire a new technical proofreader.
You
can't mix and match on these two.
Mike
Do Not Archive
B Johnson wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>
> Mike and flydog....
>
> I am very certain the "DARK GREEN" (grey???) scotchbrite is the "S" type,
> and doing some searching <finally found it on a European 3m website that I
> cannot find the link for>
>
> this "S" type is indeed Silicone Carbide
>
> So, I scrubbed some of the surfaces of my spar layup with this, painted it
> with NAPA self etching primer (which seemed to stick VERY well....)..
>
> SO, what detriment does the silicon carbide have to aluminum... I have
many
> many hours on the parts that I "scuffed" with these pads....
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
It's silicon carbide not silicone carbide. Silicon is a chemical element,
Silicone is a group of inorganic polymers that use silicon one of the basic
structural elements. This is a very common mistake, it's even found on
several websites that offer abrasive products (including 3Ms). Technically
"silicone" isn't even the correct name for the polymer but the name has
stuck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_carbide
Anyway, the problem with silicon carbide abrasives and aluminum is that the
carbon in it is not very compatible with aluminum and can cause corrosion
problems under some circumstances. This is also the reason it is not
recommended that you use pencils to mark aluminum, the graphite can cause
corrosion problems. The preferred abrasive for use with aluminum is aluminum
oxide.
on 2/11/06 1:22 AM, B Johnson at bjohnson@satx.rr.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>
> Mike and flydog....
>
> I am very certain the "DARK GREEN" (grey???) scotchbrite is the "S" type,
> and doing some searching <finally found it on a European 3m website that I
> cannot find the link for>
>
> this "S" type is indeed Silicone Carbide
>
> So, I scrubbed some of the surfaces of my spar layup with this, painted it
> with NAPA self etching primer (which seemed to stick VERY well....)..
>
> SO, what detriment does the silicon carbide have to aluminum... I have many
> many hours on the parts that I "scuffed" with these pads....
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sinclair
> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 11:02 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
>> However, someone posted that the MSDS for the pads shows them as
> being
>> made with aluminum oxide. If that is true,and I would believe the MSDS,
> then
>> they are fine on Aluminum.
>> Iron oxide abrasives? I wonder if they mean silicone carbide, which
> is
>> bad for aluminum.
>
> I believe you may have two different materials mixed up. Adding the E onto
> the
> silicon in the above statement is actually a misnomer of the silicon carbide
> material, and as such is a misrepresentation of the actual properties of the
> material. Silicon carbide has a fairly widespread use in cutting
> technologies and
> has many uses in the business of building aircraft (see the description of
> silicon
> carbide below). Now the material "silicone" which is a rubbery material that
> also
> has many uses in aircraft, primarily as a sealer, is very detrimental to the
> task
> of getting paint to adhere to a surface. It is an absolute no-no in any area
>
> (snip)
>
> Mike Sinclair N701TD
>
> Silicon Carbide is the only chemical compound of carbon and silicon. It was
> originally produced by a high temperature electro-chemical reaction of sand
> and
> carbon. Silicon carbide is an excellent abrasive and has been produced and
> made
> into grinding wheels and other abrasive products for over one hundred years.
> Today
> the material has been developed into a high quality technical grade ceramic
> with
> very good mechanical properties. It is used in abrasives, refractories,
> ceramics,
> and numerous high-performance applications. The material can also be made an
> electrical conductor and has applications in resistance heating, flame
> igniters
> and electronic components. Structural and wear applications are constantly
> developing.
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
I vote the gloves.
Message 5
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| Subject: | EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
I have listened to a discussion of scotchbrite pads for the last week and
I'm wondering if maybe next we can start a discussion of brooms or
dishwashing gloves? Im sure it will be everybit as exciting as our current
discussion.
Lee
/////////////////////////////////////
Let me start with a big ol DO NOT ARCHIVE..
Now down to business...brooms and dishwashing gloves are " womans work" <G>
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
I have listened to a discussion of scotchbrite pads for the last week and
I'm wondering if maybe next we can start a discussion of brooms or
dishwashing gloves? Im sure it will be everybit as exciting as our current
discussion.
Lee
/////////////////////////////////////
Let me start with a big ol DO NOT ARCHIVE..
Now down to business...brooms and dishwashing gloves are " womans work" G
BenHaas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Jabiru FWF kit for the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Does anyone have opinions about Jabiru's firewall-forward kit for the XL?
Pro, con, fit and finish, ease of assembly, performance once in the air,
etc.
This would be for their "newer" kit. I understand they did a redesign a year
or so ago.
And how is it dealing with Jabiru USA? Do they deliver what they promise by
the date they promise it?
-- Craig
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: XL firewall/motor-mount: bolts or studs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
The engine mount will be installed prior to the glare shield be riveted.
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
> How do you hold the nut while tightening the bolts? Isn't it on the
> pilot-side of the firewall? If so and the glare-shield is installed it could
> be very hard to reach the nut with a socket.
>
>
>
> --
--------
W.R. Gig Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11438#11438
Message 8
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| Subject: | Jabiru FWF kit for the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Davidson" <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
Does anyone have opinions about Jabiru's firewall-forward kit for the XL?
I can answer part of this: After attending the maintenance course in
Shelbyville last August, I decided to purchase both the FWF kit and a 3300A.
Neither is yet installed. However, delivery was not a problem. The
container shipment that included the engine bought had already been ordered
when I placed my order with JabiruUSA. The prop is shipped directly from
Sensenich. Due to their (Sensenich's) government related contracts, the
prop took the longest to arrive, about 45 days after everything else.
JabiruUSA was easy to work with, happy to respond in a timely fashion, and
always easy to contact, but you do have to think for yourself and ask the
right questions. They don't hold your hand.
Others that attended the course and bought about the same time are further
along installing the FWF and engine.
Jeff Davidson
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
Yeah, I meant silicon,just kant spel. :)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Amen, Lee
do not archive
In a message dated 2/11/2006 10:49:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
LRoss@cngmail.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lee Ross" <LRoss@cngmail.com>
I have listened to a discussion of scotchbrite pads for the last week and
I'm wondering if maybe next we can start a discussion of brooms or
dishwashing gloves? Im sure it will be everybit as exciting as our current
discussion.
Lee
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net>
I liked the part about not being able to get paint to adhere to enlarged
breasts,
Ed
Do Not Archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | [ Bill Naumuk ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net>
Lists: Zenith-List
Subject: Pre-punched holes
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/naumuk@alltel.net.02.11.2006/index.html
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Message 13
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| Subject: | [ Bill Naumuk ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net>
Lists: Zenith-List
Subject: Pre-punched holes
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Message 14
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| Subject: | [ Dan Morehouse ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Dan Morehouse <messydeer@yahoo.com>
Lists: Zenith-List
Subject: 'water stain' corrosion on sheets
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| Subject: | [ Craig Payne ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Lists: Zenith-List
Subject: Installation of auto-pilots in Zenith 601XLs
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
In a message dated 2/11/2006 2:43:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dredmoody@cox.net writes:
I liked the part about not being able to get paint to adhere to enlarged
breasts,
Haa ! I missed that post, would someone please elaborate? (jest
'kiddin,please dont)
Also if you are going to sweep out your wings before closing them,use a
NEW broom. A old broom may have been used to sweep iron dust,silicon
carbide,silicone, or even green scotchbrite dust.
do not archive for goodness sake
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
That gave me pause for thought.....Ever wonder why all the dishwashing ad's
on TV NEVER say anything about cleaning the dishes BUT lots about heavy
grease removal & how really fine it's going to make your hands look and feel
? ? KABONG (sell the sizzle not the steak)
Do Not Archive & note: post has been trimmed. 8*)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide??
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lee Ross" <LRoss@cngmail.com>
>
> of brooms or dishwashing gloves?
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: EVIL SCOTCHBRITE **Evils of Silicon Carbide?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates <leogates@allvantage.com>
On the second line from the top of page 11 of my Zenair Construction
Manual it states, "Mark the _rivet line_ (pencil or felt marker,
_never_ a scriber or center punch!)."
Does Chris know something we don't?
Do not archive
Leo Gates
N601Z
Bryan Martin wrote:
>Anyway, the problem with silicon carbide abrasives and aluminum is that the
>carbon in it is not very compatible with aluminum and can cause corrosion
>problems under some circumstances. This is also the reason it is not
>recommended that you use pencils to mark aluminum, the graphite can cause
>corrosion problems.
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru FWF kit for the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> Does anyone have opinions about Jabiru's firewall-forward kit for the XL?
I'll bite. So far, I'm pretty satisfied with the quality of the kit and the parts
supplied. The only caveat is that the plans/instructions fall short of what
I believe they should be, since there's lot of interpolation by the builder
that needs to take place. But, from what I've learned, that's par for the course
throughout the kitplane industry. And if you're inexperienced like me, that
can be more than a bit frustrating. But, through the efforts of builders that
have already struggled through the process, we at least have some photos and
assistance to go by. Equally important is the help that you receive from the experienced
builders on both this and the JabiruEngines Matronics list.
Tech support from Pete at Jabiru USA has been good. A couple of hiccups and some
slow shipping issues (again, fairly normal for this biz), but overall I'm pretty
satisfied. Took a while to receive my engine (and still don't have the prop),
so I would advise ordering ahead of time if you're getting close to that
stage of your plane.
Of course, I'm only about half in to the FWF installation and now struggling with
the cowl & air ducts, so I reserve the right to revise my comments accordingly.
:)
Mike Fortunato
601XL, Jab 3300
Message 20
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| Subject: | Marking sheet metal |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
Re Leo Gates post about the Zenith construction manual's marking methods
If you don't want to use the Sharpie markers or something similar, try the Eberhard
Faber #705 "Noblot Ink Pencil". Years ago a very experienced aircraft sheet
metal man recommended them to me. The lead in the #705s is different from
a regular pencil lead, and lacquer thinner removes it very nicely.
Personally, I prefer the Sharpie markers because they make a darker line.
George Swinford
Message 21
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| Subject: | Jabiru FWF kit for the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Thanks! I hadn't thought to check for a Jabiru forum.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru FWF kit for the XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> Does anyone have opinions about Jabiru's firewall-forward kit for the XL?
I'll bite. So far, I'm pretty satisfied with the quality of the kit and the
parts supplied. The only caveat is that the plans/instructions fall short of
what I believe they should be, since there's lot of interpolation by the
builder that needs to take place. But, from what I've learned, that's par
for the course throughout the kitplane industry. And if you're inexperienced
like me, that can be more than a bit frustrating. But, through the efforts
of builders that have already struggled through the process, we at least
have some photos and assistance to go by. Equally important is the help that
you receive from the experienced builders on both this and the JabiruEngines
Matronics list.
Tech support from Pete at Jabiru USA has been good. A couple of hiccups and
some slow shipping issues (again, fairly normal for this biz), but overall
I'm pretty satisfied. Took a while to receive my engine (and still don't
have the prop), so I would advise ordering ahead of time if you're getting
close to that stage of your plane.
Of course, I'm only about half in to the FWF installation and now struggling
with the cowl & air ducts, so I reserve the right to revise my comments
accordingly. :)
Mike Fortunato
601XL, Jab 3300
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| Subject: | Construction Manual ? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lynn dingfelder" <ding@tbscc.com>
I keep hearing about the "Construction Manual". I picked up my 601 kit
at Zenith last Monday. I asked Nick where the construction manual was, and
he gave me a puzzled look and referred me to the drawings, which I already have.
Is there more? I have no "page 11" in my drawings.
Lynn Dingfelder
Corry, PA
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Construction Manual ? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
The Construction Manual everyone talks about could be the photo
assembly guide that comes on CDROM with your plans. You can also
download it, one chapter or part of a chapter at a time, from ZAC's
web site. You will need builder access to the site to get past the
password protection. You can get the password from ZAC either
through an email request to info@zenithair.com or on the phone.
The actual manual files can be found at
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-up-manuals.html.
There is also a "Construction Manual" which you should have picked up
with your plans. Each one has a serial number on the bottom of the
cover page. I presume the serial number will be the same as the one
on your
plans.
Mine is edition 2.0 dated January 23, 2003 and has 18 pages. This is
a very important part of the official design documentation since it
defines the construction techniques and standards used throughout the project.
Good luck with your project.
Paul
XL wings
At 08:52 PM 2/11/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lynn dingfelder" <ding@tbscc.com>
>
> I keep hearing about the "Construction Manual". I picked
> up my 601 kit at Zenith last Monday. I asked Nick where the
> construction manual was, and he gave me a puzzled look and referred
> me to the drawings, which I already have. Is there more? I have no
> "page 11" in my drawings.
>
>Lynn Dingfelder
> Corry, PA
>
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