---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/15/06: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:54 AM - Any Zodiac XL's in Las Vagas Area? (Chris sinfield) 2. 06:06 AM - Re: Re: Rotx 912s Choke (Trevor Page) 3. 06:09 AM - Re: Return Parts (N5SL) 4. 07:07 AM - Re: quick build 601 XL (long) (Michial Pedri) 5. 07:07 AM - Re: quick build 601 XL (long) (Michial Pedri) 6. 07:07 AM - Re: quick build 601 XL (long) (Michial Pedri) 7. 07:14 AM - Re: Re: Scotchbrite (Garrou, Douglas) 8. 09:03 AM - Top cover fastener receptacles (Brandon Tucker) 9. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: Scotchbrite (Randy L. Thwing) 10. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Scotchbrite (crvsecretary@aol.com) 11. 10:05 AM - Re: Top cover fastener receptacles (Larry McFarland) 12. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Scotchbrite (B Johnson) 13. 11:35 AM - Ailerons 601XL (CoJo331@aol.com) 14. 11:54 AM - Re: Ailerons 601XL (Clyde Barcus) 15. 12:18 PM - DEAD(?) HORSE !!! (Zed Smith) 16. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Rotx 912s Choke (george may) 17. 02:23 PM - Re: Ailerons 601XL (nhulin) 18. 02:55 PM - Re: Ailerons 601XL (Paul Mulwitz) 19. 03:31 PM - Re: Ailerons 601XL (Jeffrey J Paris) 20. 04:34 PM - Re: Ailerons 601XL (Clyde Barcus) 21. 04:45 PM - Re: Re: Rotx 912s Choke (Gary Gower) 22. 04:56 PM - Rivets - Quantity and Price: (J S) 23. 05:22 PM - Re: Ailerons 601XL (cgalley) 24. 05:25 PM - Re: slim or offset rivet tool (Dave and Pam Fisher) 25. 06:55 PM - Re: slim or offset rivet tool (Ron Lendon) 26. 07:34 PM - Re: Rivets : (This is how many) (N5SL) 27. 08:13 PM - Re: Rivets : (This is how many) (Zodie Rocket) 28. 08:13 PM - Rivets : (This is how many) (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 29. 08:22 PM - Re: Ailerons 601XL (Gary Gower) 30. 08:37 PM - Re: Ailerons 601XL (Zodie Rocket) 31. 08:39 PM - Crosswind - The First Step Toward the Next Flight (Dave Zilz) 32. 08:40 PM - Flap Actuator Motor Alternatives? (William Murray) 33. 08:56 PM - Fw: CH701 Steering Rod Boots (Jim Fosse) 34. 09:51 PM - Re: Flap Actuator Motor Alternatives? (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:12 AM PST US From: Chris sinfield Subject: Zenith-List: Any Zodiac XL's in Las Vagas Area? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris sinfield Hi all I am arriving in Las Vagas just for a day on Monday 20th Feb.. Are there any Zodiac XL in the area flying/ Completed / under way for a look see?? Chris Down Under?? Do Not Archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:12 AM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rotx 912s Choke --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page George, on mine I have to hold the choke handle out with my hand for a couple of minutes while it warms up. The springs are very strong. But whatever you do, don't EVER change them for something less strong, same thing (especially) for the throttle springs!! I do have a choke "lever" in my spare parts kit that could be installed as an alternative. The lever is like this one: http://mikes.automated-shops.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html? p_prodid=290&p_catid This choke activator stays put when you activate it, flip it off when you're done. Trev Page C-IDUS 601HD R912 On Feb 14, 2006, at 9:12 PM, george may wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" > > > List-- > I just finished > installing the choke cables ,for the second time, trying to get > them to > require a little > less force when engaging the choke, without much success. The > springs appear > to be very strong. > It seems to take a significant force to fully open the choke, and > yet if I > let go of the knob it > closes fully. > > A question for those that have installed and/or are flying with the > 912s. > > Does this sound correct? And if so, how do you hold the choke open > with > one hand, set the throttle and trun the key to start the engine all > at the > same time. > > Thanks > George My > 601XL 912s > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on > how to > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:05 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Return Parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Dave: Shirley can give you the ZAC UPS number. Last year ZAC sent me the wrong parts and sent my parts to somebody else. We used the ZAC UPS number to swap packages across the country. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com 99.99% done wiring radio and intercom --- Dave VanLanen wrote: They asked in their response to please ship the unusable parts back to them. Is that normal operating procedure? Do we pay the shipping? > Thanks, > Dave Van Lanen ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:33 AM PST US From: Michial Pedri Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michial Pedri thank you for the reply. I hope things work out ok and if you don't mind i would like to email you every now and then to check and your progress. Thank you and good luck, Mike Pedri, Beckley, WV Allen Ricks wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" Hi Mike, Unfortunately progress has been slower than I would like due to a combination of holiday, family and weather issues. Granddad (95) broke a leg (He's doing better now, he just asked my dad to refill his Viagra Rx. You go Granddad). I also needed to create some more work space in my garage, as all of the quick build kit takes up a LOT of space. It rained for more than a month straight here in Oregon, and I needed a couple of good days that I was not working to pull stuff out and re-arrange. I did that last week, and have a few more things to re-arrange this week. I am also realizing that the quick build is done to a point that I need to figure out when to have things inspected before closing, as that will occurr quickly. I can sit in my fusalage on my leather seats and make airplane noises already. The only flat pieces of metal I can find are the main wing skins, and they're supposed to be flat when you put them on. Many parts are at least partially pre-riveted. The fuselage is pretty much done. Everything seems to have holes in it, and if it does not have rivets already, there are pre-aligned and drilled holes with zinc chromate on most of the mating surfaces. On the rudder kit, everything went quickly for me but the hole location, so the rest of the kit should go relatively quickly. I will say that there are a lot of parts to the kit, and getting them all sorted out and stored was a project in and of itself. For me the quick build took the project from potentially overwhelming to something that seems really doable, especially now that I see just how complete the kit is. Hopefully by the end of this week, I'll be clecoing the wing parts, and ready for visitors that are interested in looking at the kit. P.S. Don't underestimate the time it takes to unpack/catalog/store everything if you get the complete kit all at once. It's a project in and of itself. I had to build some additional shelving, and I still don't have everything stored as I would like. I envy those with barns, even if the barns have mice in them. Allen Ricks Beaverton, OR -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michial Pedri Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:38 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michial Pedri Hi Allen, Just wondering how much progress and the experiences (negative Or positive) you have with the quick build kit? I hope to purchase the kit in the next few months and am still a little nervous about trying to build my own plane (zero experience with building anything not to mention an airplane) especially wiring, engine installation etc. Thank you for any advice or comments you have to offer. Mike Pedri, Beckley, WV Allen Ricks wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:33 AM PST US From: Michial Pedri Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michial Pedri thank you for the reply. I hope things work out ok and if you don't mind i would like to email you every now and then to check and your progress. Thank you and good luck, Mike Pedri, Beckley, WV Allen Ricks wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" Hi Mike, Unfortunately progress has been slower than I would like due to a combination of holiday, family and weather issues. Granddad (95) broke a leg (He's doing better now, he just asked my dad to refill his Viagra Rx. You go Granddad). I also needed to create some more work space in my garage, as all of the quick build kit takes up a LOT of space. It rained for more than a month straight here in Oregon, and I needed a couple of good days that I was not working to pull stuff out and re-arrange. I did that last week, and have a few more things to re-arrange this week. I am also realizing that the quick build is done to a point that I need to figure out when to have things inspected before closing, as that will occurr quickly. I can sit in my fusalage on my leather seats and make airplane noises already. The only flat pieces of metal I can find are the main wing skins, and they're supposed to be flat when you put them on. Many parts are at least partially pre-riveted. The fuselage is pretty much done. Everything seems to have holes in it, and if it does not have rivets already, there are pre-aligned and drilled holes with zinc chromate on most of the mating surfaces. On the rudder kit, everything went quickly for me but the hole location, so the rest of the kit should go relatively quickly. I will say that there are a lot of parts to the kit, and getting them all sorted out and stored was a project in and of itself. For me the quick build took the project from potentially overwhelming to something that seems really doable, especially now that I see just how complete the kit is. Hopefully by the end of this week, I'll be clecoing the wing parts, and ready for visitors that are interested in looking at the kit. P.S. Don't underestimate the time it takes to unpack/catalog/store everything if you get the complete kit all at once. It's a project in and of itself. I had to build some additional shelving, and I still don't have everything stored as I would like. I envy those with barns, even if the barns have mice in them. Allen Ricks Beaverton, OR -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michial Pedri Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:38 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michial Pedri Hi Allen, Just wondering how much progress and the experiences (negative Or positive) you have with the quick build kit? I hope to purchase the kit in the next few months and am still a little nervous about trying to build my own plane (zero experience with building anything not to mention an airplane) especially wiring, engine installation etc. Thank you for any advice or comments you have to offer. Mike Pedri, Beckley, WV Allen Ricks wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" --------------------------------- Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:33 AM PST US From: Michial Pedri Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michial Pedri thank you for the reply. I hope things work out ok and if you don't mind i would like to email you every now and then to check and your progress. Thank you and good luck, Mike Pedri, Beckley, WV Allen Ricks wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" Hi Mike, Unfortunately progress has been slower than I would like due to a combination of holiday, family and weather issues. Granddad (95) broke a leg (He's doing better now, he just asked my dad to refill his Viagra Rx. You go Granddad). I also needed to create some more work space in my garage, as all of the quick build kit takes up a LOT of space. It rained for more than a month straight here in Oregon, and I needed a couple of good days that I was not working to pull stuff out and re-arrange. I did that last week, and have a few more things to re-arrange this week. I am also realizing that the quick build is done to a point that I need to figure out when to have things inspected before closing, as that will occurr quickly. I can sit in my fusalage on my leather seats and make airplane noises already. The only flat pieces of metal I can find are the main wing skins, and they're supposed to be flat when you put them on. Many parts are at least partially pre-riveted. The fuselage is pretty much done. Everything seems to have holes in it, and if it does not have rivets already, there are pre-aligned and drilled holes with zinc chromate on most of the mating surfaces. On the rudder kit, everything went quickly for me but the hole location, so the rest of the kit should go relatively quickly. I will say that there are a lot of parts to the kit, and getting them all sorted out and stored was a project in and of itself. For me the quick build took the project from potentially overwhelming to something that seems really doable, especially now that I see just how complete the kit is. Hopefully by the end of this week, I'll be clecoing the wing parts, and ready for visitors that are interested in looking at the kit. P.S. Don't underestimate the time it takes to unpack/catalog/store everything if you get the complete kit all at once. It's a project in and of itself. I had to build some additional shelving, and I still don't have everything stored as I would like. I envy those with barns, even if the barns have mice in them. Allen Ricks Beaverton, OR -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michial Pedri Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:38 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michial Pedri Hi Allen, Just wondering how much progress and the experiences (negative Or positive) you have with the quick build kit? I hope to purchase the kit in the next few months and am still a little nervous about trying to build my own plane (zero experience with building anything not to mention an airplane) especially wiring, engine installation etc. Thank you for any advice or comments you have to offer. Mike Pedri, Beckley, WV Allen Ricks wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" --------------------------------- Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite From: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" To recap the bidding (a.k.a. "flail the dead horse to a pulp suitable for use as McDonald's burgers"): I think we've now established that "iron rich Scotchbrite" is a complete and total figment of the web. This is actually a very useful finding, in my view! Meanwhile, to my knowledge, no one has demonstrated that the use of any abrasive of any kind has ever been the proximate cause of any corrosion in any aluminum aircraft. Not saying it can't happen or hasn't happened -- I suspect it actually can and does -- just saying I still haven't seen it. Maybe if you rubbed alclad aluminum sheet with rusty steel wool impregnated with road salt and bird guano.... Note that there was one claim of Scotchbrite-induced corrosion, with photos, but it turned out to be filiform (sp?) corrosion traceable to other sources. Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com do not archive, I beg you -----Original Message----- Time: 09:00:09 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" Hello Listers: If it is unacceptable to allow iron rich Scotchbrite (if there is such a thing) near aluminum, why are we permitted to use drill bits, shears, snips & files, most of which are iron based? Regards, Randy, Las Vegas do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:47 AM PST US From: crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: crvsecretary@aol.com Hi Randy: Abrasives are wonderful things. Think of a grinding wheel: the cutting action is created not by the texture of the surface but by the 'cracking' of the crystals that the wheel is made of, thus exposing new, sharp cutting edges. If the wheel is too hard, the crystals will not crack and it will load up; if too soft it will turn to dust as you grind. OK, so now back to the Dreaded Silicon Carbide Schtchbrite...or any other silicon carbide abrasive product (like wet & dry 'sandpaper'). Some of the abrasive grit will fracture from the abrasive cloth (or pad) and will be left behind on the work. This is the bad thing we try to avoid - dissimiliar metals and corrosion. Cutting tools like drill bits, shears, files etc. leave no residue. Great question !!!!! Regards, Tracy Smith N458XL (reserved) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Randy L. Thwing Sent: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:56:22 -0800 Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" Hello Listers: If it is unacceptable to allow iron rich Scotchbrite (if there is such a thing) near aluminum, why are we permitted to use drill bits, shears, snips & files, most of which are iron based? Regards, Randy, Las Vegas do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:31 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Decal Paper From: "Beckman, Rick" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Beckman, Rick" 'Afternoon All, Recently, someone had some decal paper to turn loose of. Please contact me off list and we'll see if we can work something out. rick.beckman@atk.com Thanks. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:02 PM PST US From: alex trent Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 02/13/06 --> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent > >Time: 06:50:07 AM PST US >From: "Jim Hoak" >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivnuts or Anchor Nuts or Am I Nuts? > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" > >Bob, > >The rivnuts have always been "keyed" but most people don't have the tool >that cuts the little notch in the edge of the hole thaar the key fits into. >As Cy says the rivnuts are soft aluninum and screws are steel. Thats a > > Rivnuts *are* available in "steel". However they do tend to come loose at the most awkward times no matter what the material. They are also available unkeyed alex ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL - CZA quickbuild kit - flap switch From: "AndrewC" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" G-DROO is a quickbuild 601 XL from the CZAW factory from around July 2004. Last weekend the plane took its first test flight and for the first time the flaps decided to fail. The test pilot made a routine flapless landing but the result is that after investigation it appears that the circuit breaker tripped and would not reset. An examination of the flap motor and actuator rod assembly showed that the CZAW kit has a metal flap on the actuator rod - presumably for a RAC flap indicator servo mechanism to attach - and that the metal flap had been impacting on the lower limit flap microswitch body when the flap was fully retracted. Over time this impacting appears basically to have damaged the microswitch body, resulting in a short circuit and the ensuing circuit breaker trip (the switch fell apart when removed from the plane). A new switch has been obtained and I intend to cut off the metal flap (since I don't have a flap indicator) so that fouling cannot occur. It may be that a readjustment of the microswitches on their mounting rod would remedy it too, but I'm happy to lose the weight of that metal flap... All I'd suggest is that if you have a CZAW quick build XL from around then you might want to check the state of the flap lower limit microswitch to see whether, at full up flap, there is any impacting on the microswitch body. It's probably just mine that this has happened with, but thought it better to share it. Andrew Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12171#12171 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:39 PM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith-List: Return Parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" We found a couple of incorrect parts when we inventoried our kit. ZAC is sending us the correct parts. They asked in their response to please ship the unusable parts back to them. Is that normal operating procedure? Do we pay the shipping? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI 601 XL - stabilizer Do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:01 PM PST US From: "Allen Ricks" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" Hi Mike, Unfortunately progress has been slower than I would like due to a combination of holiday, family and weather issues. Granddad (95) broke a leg (He's doing better now, he just asked my dad to refill his Viagra Rx. You go Granddad). I also needed to create some more work space in my garage, as all of the quick build kit takes up a LOT of space. It rained for more than a month straight here in Oregon, and I needed a couple of good days that I was not working to pull stuff out and re-arrange. I did that last week, and have a few more things to re-arrange this week. I am also realizing that the quick build is done to a point that I need to figure out when to have things inspected before closing, as that will occurr quickly. I can sit in my fusalage on my leather seats and make airplane noises already. The only flat pieces of metal I can find are the main wing skins, and they're supposed to be flat when you put them on. Many parts are at least partially pre-riveted. The fuselage is pretty much done. Everything seems to have holes in it, and if it does not have rivets already, there are pre-aligned and drilled holes with zinc chromate on most of the mating surfaces. On the rudder kit, everything went quickly for me but the hole location, so the rest of the kit should go relatively quickly. I will say that there are a lot of parts to the kit, and getting them all sorted out and stored was a project in and of itself. For me the quick build took the project from potentially overwhelming to something that seems really doable, especially now that I see just how complete the kit is. Hopefully by the end of this week, I'll be clecoing the wing parts, and ready for visitors that are interested in looking at the kit. P.S. Don't underestimate the time it takes to unpack/catalog/store everything if you get the complete kit all at once. It's a project in and of itself. I had to build some additional shelving, and I still don't have everything stored as I would like. I envy those with barns, even if the barns have mice in them. Allen Ricks Beaverton, OR -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michial Pedri Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:38 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: quick build 601 XL (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michial Pedri Hi Allen, Just wondering how much progress and the experiences (negative Or positive) you have with the quick build kit? I hope to purchase the kit in the next few months and am still a little nervous about trying to build my own plane (zero experience with building anything not to mention an airplane) especially wiring, engine installation etc. Thank you for any advice or comments you have to offer. Mike Pedri, Beckley, WV Allen Ricks wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL - CZA quickbuild kit - flap switch From: "David X" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" Andrew, thank you very much for the details. It's something I'll look for on my own aircraft. -------- Zodiac XL - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12231#12231 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:02 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Return Parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> I'd say eat the shipping charge. The service from ZAC in such situations is very good, and it's not a big deal. Possibly later you will make a mistake shaping or drilling a small part and ZAC will probably send you one no charge. So don't throw any corners into the smooth round equation of what goes around comes around, just skew the circle in your favor and don't quibble over the shipping. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave VanLanen" Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:23 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Return Parts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > > > We found a couple of incorrect parts when we inventoried our kit. ZAC is > sending us the correct parts. They asked in their response to please ship > the unusable parts back to them. Is that normal operating procedure? Do > we > pay the shipping? > > Thanks, > Dave Van Lanen > Madison, WI > 601 XL - stabilizer ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:24 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rotx 912s Choke --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" List-- I just finished installing the choke cables ,for the second time, trying to get them to require a little less force when engaging the choke, without much success. The springs appear to be very strong. It seems to take a significant force to fully open the choke, and yet if I let go of the knob it closes fully. A question for those that have installed and/or are flying with the 912s. Does this sound correct? And if so, how do you hold the choke open with one hand, set the throttle and trun the key to start the engine all at the same time. Thanks George My 601XL 912s > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:02 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rotx 912s Choke --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" BEFORE you consider changing the spring on a Rotax Motor read this !!! http://www.ch601.org/stories/croke_crash.htm Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" List-- I just finished installing the choke cables ,for the second time, trying to get them to require a little less force when engaging the choke, without much success. The springs appear to be very strong. It seems to take a significant force to fully open the choke, and yet if I let go of the knob it closes fully. A question for those that have installed and/or are flying with the 912s. Does this sound correct? And if so, how do you hold the choke open with one hand, set the throttle and trun the key to start the engine all at the same time. Thanks George My 601XL 912s > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement -- 2/13/2006 -- 2/13/2006 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:47 PM PST US From: "Gary A. Boothe" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" That's why I use tools only from China. They have a minimum amount of iron! Gary Boothe, Cool, Ca 601HDSTD, WW Corvair Conv. - complete Tail Group - complete. Working on Wings... DEFINITELY DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy L. Thwing" Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" > > > Hello Listers: > If it is unacceptable to allow iron rich Scotchbrite (if there is such > a > thing) near aluminum, why are we permitted to use drill bits, shears, > snips > & files, most of which are iron based? > > Regards, > > Randy, Las Vegas do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:38 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rotx 912s Choke --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair George Sounds like you've got your choke set pretty smooth if it closes on it's own. I have to push mine in, though with not much pressure. As for the throttle, it needs to be closed (choke is ineffective at any other position) and if you have the friction block set-up properly adjusted (providing that is how your throttle is rigged), it's pretty much hands off. As the engine starts to run smoothly the choke needs to go in anyway. Two hands are plenty sufficient to the task. On mine I have found that after the first cold start of the day, the choke has been unnecessary for subsequent starts, even after a few hours. Mike Sinclair N701TD george may wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" > > List-- > I just finished > installing the choke cables ,for the second time, trying to get them to > require a little > less force when engaging the choke, without much success. The springs appear > to be very strong. > It seems to take a significant force to fully open the choke, and yet if I > let go of the knob it > closes fully. > > A question for those that have installed and/or are flying with the 912s. > > Does this sound correct? And if so, how do you hold the choke open with > one hand, set the throttle and trun the key to start the engine all at the > same time. > > Thanks > George My > 601XL 912s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:33 PM PST US From: Dave and Pam Fisher Subject: Zenith-List: Re: slim rivet tool --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dave and Pam Fisher Hi Phill& list, I don't recall where I picked up the idea for riveting in tight spots, but I made a small attachment for my rivet tool that works slick for tight corners. It's just a cylindrical piece of metal 3/8 inch in diameter about 3/8 of an inch long with one end beveled at 30 degrees. Dimple the square cut end like the nose piece of your riveter and drill a hole for rivet stems through the center of it. Slip the thing over the rivet stem before you pull it and you will be able to position your puller at an angle and still get a straight pull on the rivet. Have fun!! Dave, 701 with A80-8 Continental ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:15 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crosswind - The Last Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Dave Were you able to figure out what went wrong? Bob Spudis Do not archive In a message dated 1/18/2006 11:36:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: Dave' I am so sorry for your engine out. Praise the Lord that you are safe. Thank you for your testimony as I too am a Christian. Lord willing I will be making my 1st flight in N701ZX a 701 with a Rotax 912S tomorrow. What was the engine out glide like? Did you have much range? Could it have been icing? God Bless Bob Spudis ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: slim rivet tool From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" I don't quite understand what you mean. Got any pictures? -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12278#12278 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:46 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Top cover fastener receptacles --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Larry Mac, I remember that you used clip on receptacles for attaching your top cover over the header tank and instrument panel. What part number did you use? Did you use 10/32? Also, how did you attach the 3 or 4 screws to the upper longeron? R/ Brandon Tucker Airframe complete Wiring complete Engine installed (but have to swap out the crank next week! ) Painting fuselage Do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:24 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" "Cutting tools like drill bits, shears, files etc. leave no residue." Hello Tracy: While I agree with most of your post, if the above were absolutely true, cutting edges on drills etc. would never wear and would stay sharp forever. Cutting edges wear, leaving that amount of metal somewhere. Granted, tools are very long lasting cutting Aluminum, and leave nowhere near the debris that abrasives do, but they do leave some. Carpenter Steel points out in their Stainless Steel guides that when a complaint comes in from the field that a machined stainless steel part is rusting, the first thing to ask is if the rust is occuring in a area that has been machined. That is usually the case and the cause is microspopic residue from the STEEL cutting tool, i.e. end mill, that was used to machine the stainless part is present and it is that material that is rusting on the surface, not the stainless steel itself. I manufacture certain parts from 303 stainless, and I have experienced the above. Thanks to Doug for confirming that "iron rich Scotchbrite" is now part of the lexicon. Best Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:03 AM PST US From: crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: crvsecretary@aol.com Hello Randy: You are absolutely right and I should not speak in absolutes, as in "leave NO residue" (emphesis mine). However, I was speaking about residues that would make a material difference in the work. In machining stainless, microscopic residue from the HSS tool WILL make a difference; but in our little aluminum airplanes the residue from a HSS drill is absolutely insignificant. The experts caution us the volume of residue from a silicone carbide abrasive is truely a potential corrosion hazard. Thanks for the correction, Randy. Tracy Smith N458XL (reserved) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Randy L. Thwing Sent: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:18:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" "Cutting tools like drill bits, shears, files etc. leave no residue." Hello Tracy: While I agree with most of your post, if the above were absolutely true, cutting edges on drills etc. would never wear and would stay sharp forever. Cutting edges wear, leaving that amount of metal somewhere. Granted, tools are very long lasting cutting Aluminum, and leave nowhere near the debris that abrasives do, but they do leave some. Carpenter Steel points out in their Stainless Steel guides that when a complaint comes in from the field that a machined stainless steel part is rusting, the first thing to ask is if the rust is occuring in a area that has been machined. That is usually the case and the cause is microspopic residue from the STEEL cutting tool, i.e. end mill, that was used to machine the stainless part is present and it is that material that is rusting on the surface, not the stainless steel itself. I manufacture certain parts from 303 stainless, and I have experienced the above. Thanks to Doug for confirming that "iron rich Scotchbrite" is now part of the lexicon. Best Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:47 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Top cover fastener receptacles --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Brandon, I used J-nut clip on styles 1 & 2, principally the style 2, which is a little longer on firewall and instrument panel flange. Style 1 on the sides. Part numbers supporting 6-32 and the appropriate hole to edge distance. Go to http://www.mcmaster.com to search window and see j-nuts, for machine screws, shapes 1 and 2, then select 6-32 and the edge distance. On my canopy page you can see that I made and used a separate piece to go from the longeron to the edge to minimize the forward top sides to a straight edge. The forward top skin fits over the piece each side, the j-nuts slip onto the edge which goes beneath the side pieces. The short pieces are riveted with A5s to the longeron, while two rivets secure each piece to the firewall flange. The entire pattern of the forward top skin is 6-32 screws which are 3/8-inch long. 6-32 screws are more than adequate and hard to visually differentiate from rivets at nearly any distance. See links below to understand side pieces, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/flash&rubber.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/uclips.gif Removal begins with the canopy down, and the first 5 screws each side are removed, a patch of .025 aluminum 4 by 6-inches is slipped each side between the rubber and the top skin. The canopy is raised, arms covering the space where the screws were. The remaining screws are removed, the gas cap if you have one is removed and the forward top skin is lifted off. The gas cap is reattached. The canopy can be left up or down at this point. The aluminum patches are there to prevent the rubber on the arms from snagging the forward top skin after the screws are removed. Reattachment is the same in reverse. About 20 minutes each way. Definitely worth the effort! Hope this helps, but if you have more questions please just ask. Larry McFarland - 601HDS with installed XL forward tilt canopy per Zenith. Brandon Tucker wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker > >Larry Mac, > > I remember that you used clip on receptacles for attaching your top cover over the header tank and instrument panel. What part number did you use? Did you use 10/32? Also, how did you attach the 3 or 4 screws to the upper longeron? > > R/ > > Brandon Tucker > > Airframe complete > Wiring complete > Engine installed (but have to swap out the crank next week! ) > Painting fuselage > > Do not archive > > >--------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:52 AM PST US From: "B Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" Which DOES mean, the type "S" scotchbrite should be avoided right??? -Bruce Johnson (who polished parts of his 6061T-6 Sonex spar with silicon carbide laced "TYPE S" scotchbrite :-( ) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of crvsecretary@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 11:36 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: crvsecretary@aol.com > > Hello Randy: > > You are absolutely right and I should not speak in absolutes, as in "leave > NO residue" (emphesis mine). > > However, I was speaking about residues that would make a material > difference in the work. In machining stainless, microscopic residue from > the HSS tool WILL make a difference; but in our little aluminum airplanes > the residue from a HSS drill is absolutely insignificant. The experts > caution us the volume of residue from a silicone carbide abrasive is > truely a potential corrosion hazard. > > Thanks for the correction, Randy. > > Tracy Smith > N458XL (reserved) > do not archive > -- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:24 AM PST US From: CoJo331@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: CoJo331@aol.com A question for the list, the writer is about to began work on the ailerons my hang up is this; I want to build the piano hinged version since I did not convey this to ZAC when the 601XL kit was ordered it defaulted to the hingless version. My options are I can return aileron skin p/n 6W2-3 to ZAC in exchange for the piano hinged option p/n 6PH1-1 or I can proceed with the aileron skin that came with the kit and modify it with an added weight penalty that being an an added 60 inch length piece of .040 x 3/4 angle and 2 additional rows of rivets times two. Help me out I can't see the forest for the trees. Thanks in advance! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:42 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type after discussing it with Chris Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I cut the over lap down from 40mm to 20mm, used 025 L under the over lap. The hinge goes between the top skin and the L channel, it is quick and easy with very little additional weight. Clyde Barcus 601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 2:29 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: CoJo331@aol.com > > A question for the list, the writer is about to began work on the ailerons > my hang up is this; I want to build the piano hinged version since I did > not > convey this to ZAC when the 601XL kit was ordered it defaulted to the > hingless version. > My options are I can return aileron skin p/n 6W2-3 to ZAC in exchange for > the piano > hinged option p/n 6PH1-1 or I can proceed with the aileron skin that > came > with the > kit and modify it with an added weight penalty that being an an added 60 > inch > length piece of .040 x 3/4 angle and 2 additional rows of rivets times > two. > Help me out I can't see the forest for the trees. Thanks in advance! > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:46 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: DEAD(?) HORSE !!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith Well....... Having finished off the ScotchBrite horse, was wondering if he/she/it will "lie in repose" somewhere. At 3M corporate offices? Mexico, MO? South Texas bird ranch? What, actually, did him in? Was it the muzzle blast...or maybe the shot came from the other end? Maybe it was the elbow grease dripping on the Alclad as a result of over-indulgent use of the pads? Poor grounding? Dis-similar horseshoes? One talking head said "buck shot", another said the shot were five (5) mm in diameter. Who will serve as pallbearers? Monument? A bouquet of SB pads? Subject for next week (early warning so you can gather MSDS's and slide rules) will be: "Pros & Cons of Static Wicks as related to use on Sub-Mach Aerial Transit Mechanisms of Lightweight Metallic Construction". As an alternate: "Proper Placement and Length-adjustment Algorithm for Static Wicks on Flying Machines That Don't Go Nowhere In A Hurry". Earn an on-line PhD with these, get a downloadable Certificate of Authenticity, suitable for framing. Blessed are the words Do Not Archive, for they be saving disk space. Zed/701/R912/90+%/is there a haz-mat fee for disposing of used ScotchBrite pads? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:36 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rotx 912s Choke --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" Mark,Mike and Trevor, Thanks for the reply info on the choke cables. I guess things are ok as is. Even though I had no intention of messing with the springs, I appreciate your warnings. George 601XL 912s do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:55 PM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" On Wed Feb 15 at 11:35 AM, CoJo331@aol.com wrote: My options are I can return aileron skin p/n 6W2-3 to ZAC in exchange for the piano hinged option p/n 6PH1-1 or I can proceed with the aileron skin that came with the kit and modify it with an added weight penalty that being an added 60 inch length piece of .040 x 3/4 angle and 2 additional rows of rivets times two. I know this is a touchy subject but one option you overlooked is to install as provided. Lots of builders already have. ..neil 601XL/Corvair Fuselage and stuff ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:57 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz OK guys. Now you have me curious. Why would you want piano hinge ailerons instead of the cool perfectly sealed ones in the standard design? I tried flying with the hingeless design on the factory demonstrator and found full aileron authority all the way down to stall speed. What more would you hope to gain with piano hinges? Paul XL wings >I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type after discussing it with Chris >Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I cut the over lap down from 40mm to 20mm, used 025 L >under the over lap. The hinge goes between the top skin and the L channel, >it is quick and easy with very little additional weight. > >Clyde Barcus >601XL - ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:47 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL From: "Jeffrey J Paris" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris" Mr. CoJo, Chris Heintz's hingeless/aileron gap seal design for the ailerons is ingenious to say the least. The simplicity of design and very thorough testing, ie. 300,000 plus 180 degree deflections of the aluminium "hinge" with a 2 inch cut into the material yielded no fatigue in the cut. I was told this by my building mentor who scratch built his 601 and has built 3 other planes before this last one. He is a retired machinist and sheet metal expert at Xerox during his working years and he has had this very talk with Chris Heintz. I have been flying my CH601XL for 50 hours and the design as it stands makes for a simple, affordable, easily maintained and sound aircraft. Remember the KISS acronym "keep it simple stu..." and Chris does, Hingeless is where it is at! For what it is worth... just adding my 2 cents worth. Jeff Paris N196ZP Jabiru 3300 CH601XL --- On Wed 02/15, < CoJo331@aol.com > wrote: From: [mailto: CoJo331@aol.com] Subject: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: CoJo331@aol.com A question for the list, the writer is about to began work on the ailerons my hang up is this; I want to build the piano hinged version since I did not convey this to ZAC when the 601XL kit was ordered it defaulted to the hingless version. My options are I can return aileron skin p/n 6W2-3 to ZAC in exchange for the piano hinged option p/n 6PH1-1 or I can proceed with the aileron skin that came with the kit and modify it with an added weight penalty that being an an added 60 inch length piece of .040 x 3/4 angle and 2 additional rows of rivets times two. Help me out I can't see the forest for the trees. Thanks in advance! page, ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:21 PM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" I was told by Gus at William Wynne's that the controls have a lighter touch at slow speed, which I prefer, they recently converted their plane to hinge type. Also, not everyone likes the idea of the unconventional hingeless method, someday I will quit flying and I will need to sell my plane and I want it to appeal to as many pilots as possible. It is really not a matter of which is better, it is just preference, a lot like tri gear versus conventional gear. There must be a fair amount of interest or ZAC would not have added it to the options after so many years. Clyde Barcus 601X Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > OK guys. Now you have me curious. Why would you want piano hinge > ailerons instead of the cool perfectly sealed ones in the standard > design? I tried flying with the hingeless design on the factory > demonstrator and found full aileron authority all the way down to > stall speed. What more would you hope to gain with piano hinges? > > Paul > XL wings > > >>I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type after discussing it with >>Chris >>Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I cut the over lap down from 40mm to 20mm, used 025 L >>under the over lap. The hinge goes between the top skin and the L channel, >>it is quick and easy with very little additional weight. >> >>Clyde Barcus >>601XL > > - > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:33 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rotx 912s Choke --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello George, This is how Succesfully I start my engine cold everytime with no problem. Yes, I used to flood it, discharge the batery, or just get mad... Until this way the engine starts 99 times out of 100, (Perfection is not human :-) 1.- I have my idle (warm) set at 1,900 rpms full throttle pull (off). Yes, the best idle is 2,000 but this gives me less "pull" of the engine at last final approach. 2.- To start the engine you dont need any throttle movement, If you push the throttle more than 10 mm (in my 701) the chokes will not work and the engine will not start. 3.- I adjust the trottle only about 3 to 5mm push. NO more or it will not start. 4.- Step hard in both brakes, just in case you aply accidentally to much trottle when the engine starts. Dont laugh, it happens very often.... 4.- With one hand pull full the choke (this is hold ONLY for 2 or 3 seconds of engine running) , Shout CLEAR! and look around for kids and dogs. With the other hand turn start the key. it will start very easy and at about 2,100 to 2300 rpms, in 2 or 3 seconds release the choke completly, look at the oil pressure (60 lbs) and then adjust gently the trottle to 2,500 for about 2 or 3 minutes, then thottle back to 2,000 until the oil temp reaches 50 C (or 120 F if I am correct). This will take about 5 to 7 minutes. IMPORTANT: Never idle the engine under 2,000 rpms, is harmfull (shaking) for plane and engine. The good thing about needing to warm the Rotax engine for about 10 minutes is that the engine will stop before take off, if we forgot to open the gasoline valve :-) Hope this helps, if no one has a better experience... Here we dont have very cold mornings, even on winter, for real cold climates could be a diferent procedure (?) Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S Flying from Chapala, Mexico. george may wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" List-- I just finished installing the choke cables ,for the second time, trying to get them to require a little less force when engaging the choke, without much success. The springs appear to be very strong. It seems to take a significant force to fully open the choke, and yet if I let go of the knob it closes fully. A question for those that have installed and/or are flying with the 912s. Does this sound correct? And if so, how do you hold the choke open with one hand, set the throttle and trun the key to start the engine all at the same time. Thanks George My 601XL 912s --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:51 PM PST US From: "J S" Subject: Zenith-List: Rivets - Quantity and Price: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "J S" Has anyone determined the approximate number of A4 and A5 rivets it takes to build the 601XL? Also, are there any recommendations re a good source and pricing for Textron Avdel rivets in Southern Ontario? Thanks, John Shore Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft SmartScreen Technology. first two months FREE*. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:00 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" It has always been an option for those non-believers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clyde Barcus" Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" > > I was told by Gus at William Wynne's that the controls have a lighter > touch > at slow speed, which I prefer, they recently converted their plane to > hinge > type. Also, not everyone likes the idea of the unconventional hingeless > method, someday I will quit flying and I will need to sell my plane and I > want it to appeal to as many pilots as possible. It is really not a matter > of which is better, it is just preference, a lot like tri gear versus > conventional gear. There must be a fair amount of interest or ZAC would > not > have added it to the options after so many years. > > Clyde Barcus > 601X > > Do Not Archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Mulwitz" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:49 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >> >> >> OK guys. Now you have me curious. Why would you want piano hinge >> ailerons instead of the cool perfectly sealed ones in the standard >> design? I tried flying with the hingeless design on the factory >> demonstrator and found full aileron authority all the way down to >> stall speed. What more would you hope to gain with piano hinges? >> >> Paul >> XL wings >> >> >>>I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type after discussing it with >>>Chris >>>Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I cut the over lap down from 40mm to 20mm, used 025 L >>>under the over lap. The hinge goes between the top skin and the L >>>channel, >>>it is quick and easy with very little additional weight. >>> >>>Clyde Barcus >>>601XL >> >> - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:39 PM PST US From: Dave and Pam Fisher Subject: Zenith-List: Re: slim or offset rivet tool --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dave and Pam Fisher At 12:59 AM 2/15/2006, you wrote: >3/8 inch in diameter about 3/8 of an >inch long with one end beveled at 30 degrees. Dimple the square cut end >like the nose piece of your riveter and drill a hole for rivet stems >through the center of it. Slip the thing over the rivet stem before you >pull it and you will be able to position your puller at an angle and still >get a straight pull on the rivet. Hi Ron and list, Sorry, no pictures, but I'll try again: I think you could do what my tool does by grinding the nose piece of your riveter at an angle and then dimple the new beveled nose . You can then angle the riveter into a corner while keeping the new beveled nose square with the rivet. You'll bend the rivet stem in the process but you'll get a good set on the rivet. My little attachment works the same way but doesn't alter the nose piece of the riveter. Better? Dave, 701 with A80-8 Continental ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: slim or offset rivet tool From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" Much better. I couldn't see how that would work without bending the stem. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12529#12529 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:54 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivets : (This is how many) --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hi John: I have your answer! Well almost. I have filled four - yes four - Gatorade bottles with rivet stems. Here's a picture taken just over a year ago when I had filled three bottles. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/1_01_05_Stems.JPG I'll make you a deal. After I pull the last rivet, I'll send you the bottles and you can dump them out and count them, then let us all know how many of each size there are! Good luck, Scott Laughlin http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ Radio making noises! --- J S wrote: > Has anyone determined the approximate number of A4 > and A5 rivets it takes to > build the 601XL? ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:34 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivets : (This is how many) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Scott youre a nicer man then I. I have also saved all stems and told the kids that they will be counting them when I'm done. Wait till I tell them that they have to separate the stems into A4 and A5 piles before counting. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com do not archive -----Original Message----- Hi John: I have your answer! Well almost. I have filled four - yes four - Gatorade bottles with rivet stems. Here's a picture taken just over a year ago when I had filled three bottles. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/1_01_05_Stems.JPG I'll make you a deal. After I pull the last rivet, I'll send you the bottles and you can dump them out and count them, then let us all know how many of each size there are! Good luck, Scott Laughlin http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ Radio making noises! --- J S wrote: > Has anyone determined the approximate number of A4 > and A5 rivets it takes to > build the 601XL? -- 2/15/2006 -- 2/15/2006 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:34 PM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Rivets : (This is how many) --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com <<>>> The kit comes with about 5000 of each.....10,000 total. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:37 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Yes, same as the double joke option... Is very easy and lots of space in the cabin with the central Yoke... But some just dont believe before trying it. Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" It has always been an option for those non-believers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clyde Barcus" Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" > > I was told by Gus at William Wynne's that the controls have a lighter > touch > at slow speed, which I prefer, they recently converted their plane to > hinge > type. Also, not everyone likes the idea of the unconventional hingeless > method, someday I will quit flying and I will need to sell my plane and I > want it to appeal to as many pilots as possible. It is really not a matter > of which is better, it is just preference, a lot like tri gear versus > conventional gear. There must be a fair amount of interest or ZAC would > not > have added it to the options after so many years. > > Clyde Barcus > 601X > > Do Not Archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Mulwitz" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:49 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >> >> >> OK guys. Now you have me curious. Why would you want piano hinge >> ailerons instead of the cool perfectly sealed ones in the standard >> design? I tried flying with the hingeless design on the factory >> demonstrator and found full aileron authority all the way down to >> stall speed. What more would you hope to gain with piano hinges? >> >> Paul >> XL wings >> >> >>>I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type after discussing it with >>>Chris >>>Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I cut the over lap down from 40mm to 20mm, used 025 L >>>under the over lap. The hinge goes between the top skin and the L >>>channel, >>>it is quick and easy with very little additional weight. >>> >>>Clyde Barcus >>>601XL --------------------------------- Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:03 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Gary, I was convinced of the center "Y" stick the very first time I got into a 601HD with dual sticks wearing shorts and the floor carpet slipped out from under my feet ramming the stick up my shorts and FIRMLY into crotch region. Then falling into seat and stick not going back that far. IT was almost a week before I could walk normally again. That is why I'm adamant on the Y stick. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Yes, same as the double joke option... Is very easy and lots of space in the cabin with the central Yoke... But some just dont believe before trying it. Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" It has always been an option for those non-believers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clyde Barcus" Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" > > I was told by Gus at William Wynne's that the controls have a lighter > touch > at slow speed, which I prefer, they recently converted their plane to > hinge > type. Also, not everyone likes the idea of the unconventional hingeless > method, someday I will quit flying and I will need to sell my plane and I > want it to appeal to as many pilots as possible. It is really not a matter > of which is better, it is just preference, a lot like tri gear versus > conventional gear. There must be a fair amount of interest or ZAC would > not > have added it to the options after so many years. > > Clyde Barcus > 601X > > Do Not Archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Mulwitz" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:49 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons 601XL > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >> >> >> OK guys. Now you have me curious. Why would you want piano hinge >> ailerons instead of the cool perfectly sealed ones in the standard >> design? I tried flying with the hingeless design on the factory >> demonstrator and found full aileron authority all the way down to >> stall speed. What more would you hope to gain with piano hinges? >> >> Paul >> XL wings >> >> >>>I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type after discussing it with >>>Chris >>>Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I cut the over lap down from 40mm to 20mm, used 025 L >>>under the over lap. The hinge goes between the top skin and the L >>>channel, >>>it is quick and easy with very little additional weight. >>> >>>Clyde Barcus >>>601XL --------------------------------- Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- 2/15/2006 -- 2/15/2006 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:41 PM PST US From: "Dave Zilz" Subject: Zenith-List: Crosswind - The First Step Toward the Next Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Zilz" Thanks to all of you listers who have offered public and private support and much needed words of encouragement following Crosswind's forced landing and substantial damage on 18 January. Today marks the first day in a long "pre-flight" period as my family and I begin our "return to flight" program. Specifically, today we completed the settlement process with our insurance company and are now cleared to begin repairing/rebuilding Crosswind! First, let me say that the experience we had with Falcon AIG Aviation insurance was wonderful. From the time I contacted them for a quote until we received our settlement check, the customer service and considerations given to our special circumstances were outstanding. I highly recommend the following agent: Jim Stewart, Falcon Insurance Agency- Kerrville, TX, EAA Division, 866-647-4322, jstewart@falconinsurance.com Next, let me address some of the questions some of you have raised and some lessons learned. 1) The 801 does NOT glide well at engine out. Although I was at 4000 MSL (~3500 AGL) when I lost power, I covered only 1 mile in distance before I met the tree line. My lesson learned is that if I ever again need to execute an engine out forced landing, I will begin my search for an acceptable field BELOW me and not out in front of me. 2) The cabin structure seems to be very "crash worthy". Although I still consider it divine intervention and a modern miracle that I walked away without a scratch, the engineer in me has to look at the wreckage and assess what failed and what held. The cabin structure did well despite the fact that both wings absorbed much of the energy and crushed the airframe behind the front seats. 3) Stay over the field when flight testing new conditions. I became a bit overconfident during this flight test and strayed too far from the field when I inititated a new flight condition. I had been up for just over an hour and all was well. Although I was flying ovals over the field, I had drifted a bit farther East of the field during this pass and was just enjoying the scenery. However, it was when I was at this farthest point from the field (about 2 miles off the end of the runway) that I set up a new, first time ever, flight condition. I'll explain the new flight condition below, but the lesson learned here is to be over the field when you try a new combination of aero configuration and power setting. 4) The flight condition and analysis: As stated earlier, I had been up for over an hour doing engine performance checks. The aircraft had 22 gal of 100LL fuel at take-off and an estimated 10-12 gal still on board when the flight was terminated. This flight test mission was to assess engine performance. Specifically, I was flying ovals around the field at different altitudes and power settings and recording all the available performance parameters. I had been making radio calls to my ground crew who recorded all the readings, which included pressures and temperatures, even carburetor air tempurature. The flight condition at which I lost fuel pressure and subsequently the engine, was low speed, high drag, and moderate to high power. Specifically, I had dropped the flaps to 30 degs and increased power to hold altitude. In this condition, I was slow (58MPH), with moderatly high power (2100 RPM), and probably reduced cooling through the cowl. The outside air temperature was around 48 deg F and the Carb Air temp was 45 deg F. Shortly after entering this flight condition, the fuel pressure dropped to below 2psi and the engine quit very shortly thereafter. There was no indication of rough running such as would be the case with carb ice. With the electric fuel pump on and following all the normal procedures, I was able to start the engine briefly, but it never did accelerate. Finally, it stopped and would not start again. The current working theory is that at this flight condition, the gacolator overheated, vaporized the fuel, and created a vapor lock in the system. The fact that both the electric and mechanical fuel pumps are downstream of the gascolator created a condition wherein, the system could not expell the vapor and deliver fresh fuel to the engine. Fuel System Changes for Crosswind II: During this re-build I plan to do the following to minimize the chances of this happening again. Move electric fuel pump upstream of gascolator Move gascolator farther away from exhaust pipes Wrap exhaust pipes with insulation wrap to minimize radiant heating Add cooling air blast tube from engine baffles to blow on gascolator Add air vent lines to filler necks of 801 fuel tanks and route open vent line to wing lower surface Hope this summary can help some of you as you begin your testing. Check out our website for updates. http://crosswind.myairplane.com/ Dave ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:48 PM PST US From: William Murray Subject: Zenith-List: Flap Actuator Motor Alternatives? --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Murray Being a penny pinching school teacher, I found the price and weight for the spec'd flap actuator motor to be too much. I scanned the archives and saw that a #25 linear actuator motor was being proposed by a few members. My question is this..... have they flown with them yet? 25 lbs seems to be too small a force to overcome the wind pressure on both flaps at Vfe or below. How are other frugal builders actuating their flaps? I have thought about using a "manual actuator" (a lever with detents for 0-30 degrees), but I'm building a dual stick version so it won't look like the prototype that Zenith Air built in which the lever was between the pilot's legs. I would love it to be near the center arm rest, but I also need a console and doubt that there will be space for both. HELP!!! Warmest Wishes in Olalla, WA William Murray tall_tech_teach@yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:46 PM PST US From: "Jim Fosse" Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: CH701 Steering Rod Boots --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Fosse" Listers. For what its worth, I have found what I think is a good boot for the steering rods. They are Rack and Pinion boots from J.C. Whitney, P/N CC473495 @ $12.99. The web site is www.jcwhitney.com. Question for anyone flying the 701. What is the max lateral movement (aileron control) at the top of the stick. Give me the answer off line, if you will. Thanks. Jim Fosse ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:26 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flap Actuator Motor Alternatives? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Some have used electric windows motors. But I can't point to any specifics. Certainly these day when many cars come equipped with electric windows you stand a good chance of finding a bargain at a wrecking yard. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Murray Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:40 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Flap Actuator Motor Alternatives? --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Murray --> Being a penny pinching school teacher, I found the price and weight for the spec'd flap actuator motor to be too much. I scanned the archives and saw that a #25 linear actuator motor was being proposed by a few members. My question is this..... have they flown with them yet? 25 lbs seems to be too small a force to overcome the wind pressure on both flaps at Vfe or below. How are other frugal builders actuating their flaps? I have thought about using a "manual actuator" (a lever with detents for 0-30 degrees), but I'm building a dual stick version so it won't look like the prototype that Zenith Air built in which the lever was between the pilot's legs. I would love it to be near the center arm rest, but I also need a console and doubt that there will be space for both. HELP!!! Warmest Wishes in Olalla, WA William Murray tall_tech_teach@yahoo.com