Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:02 AM - (george.mueller@aurora.org)
2. 07:11 AM - Re: Aux fuel pump (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
3. 09:49 AM - Re: (Joe Bienkowski)
4. 10:33 AM - Re: (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
5. 02:00 PM - Re: Aux fuel pump in 701. (nyterminat@aol.com)
6. 05:22 PM - Re: Aux fuel pump (David Alberti)
7. 06:36 PM - Re: Aux fuel pump in 701. (Tim & Diane Shankland)
8. 08:07 PM - Re: Aux fuel pump in 701. (Craig Payne)
9. 08:52 PM - Re: Aux fuel pump in 701. (Gary Gower)
10. 09:03 PM - Re: Aux fuel pump in 701. (Jeff Davidson)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: george.mueller@aurora.org
Thanks to the list for all of the good comments about aux fuel pumps in the
701 fuel system One thing that caused some confusion is that I left out
the decimal points in the specs for the facet 40105 pump, which puts out
25 to 45PSI (thats 2point5 to 4point5 PSI)
>From the listers comments, it sounds like a 40105 in series with the rotax
mechanical pump will not impede the fuel flow when the facet pump is off
So the system really would not know the facet pump is there when it was
off Also it sounds like it would be better to have the in line fuel
filter downstream of the facet pump rather than upstream
A couple of other things I am wondering about One lister suggested that
the facet pump should be installed upstream of the gascolator and the fuel
filter Is this how most have done it? This route would, I assume, have a
T connection from the wing tank lines, then the facet pump, then the
gascolator, then the inline fuel filter, then on to the mechanical pump on
the rotax Also, for those with an aux electric pump, does this help the
problem of uneven tank drainage that some have reported with the 701?
Would running an aux electric pump pull fuel from both tanks more evenly?
I am also wondering about the fact that there is no fuel filter screen in
the ZAC gascolator If you have an inline fuel filter downstream from the
gascolator would a screen in the gascolator just be overkill? Or is it
worth upgrading to a gascolator with a filter screen?
George
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Good for you...Most people kind of assume that because it works normally
it will protect them in the event of a failure...Not a good idea!
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of neitzel
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 4:12 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Aux fuel pump
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" <n963wb@frontiernet.net>
Greetings
I installed a low pressure facet 40105 in series with the vacuum
operated diaphragm pump on a Rotax 582. The boost pump was operated on
take off and landing only. This set up has just over 100 hours on it
and has not interfered with fuel flow when not in operation. I plan to
use the same set up on my 701 with Jabiru power plant. Someone did
bring up a valid point about first understanding the operation of the
mechanical pump on the engine. I am slated for engine delivery this
month so will inspect the pump and, if necessary, even disassemble it to
determine fuel flow and possible ramifications in the event of a
failure.
Dick Neitzel
Sayner, WI
N962WB reserved
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Joe Bienkowski <joeb47@verizon.net>
Dear George,
But MOST IMPORTANT of ALL! The Facet pump should be physically LOW.
You really want the pump intake to have a good supply of fuel at all
angles of attack!
The Facet pumps are pretty good, solid pumps. They are TERRIBLE air pumps!
They do NOT do a good job of sucking air, so you always want the input
to the
pump to be flooded!
Lastly, Facet recommends that the fuel filter should be BEFORE the pump
inlet so
that you don't get junk into the pump that could impede the motion of
the plunger.
Best,
Joe Bienkowski, Bowling Green, OH
george.mueller@aurora.org wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: george.mueller@aurora.org
>
>Thanks to the list for all of the good comments about aux fuel pumps in the
>701 fuel system One thing that caused some confusion is that I left out
>the decimal points in the specs for the facet 40105 pump, which puts out
>25 to 45PSI (thats 2point5 to 4point5 PSI)
>
>>From the listers comments, it sounds like a 40105 in series with the rotax
>mechanical pump will not impede the fuel flow when the facet pump is off
>So the system really would not know the facet pump is there when it was
>off Also it sounds like it would be better to have the in line fuel
>filter downstream of the facet pump rather than upstream
>
>A couple of other things I am wondering about One lister suggested that
>the facet pump should be installed upstream of the gascolator and the fuel
>filter Is this how most have done it? This route would, I assume, have a
>T connection from the wing tank lines, then the facet pump, then the
>gascolator, then the inline fuel filter, then on to the mechanical pump on
>the rotax Also, for those with an aux electric pump, does this help the
>problem of uneven tank drainage that some have reported with the 701?
>Would running an aux electric pump pull fuel from both tanks more evenly?
>I am also wondering about the fact that there is no fuel filter screen in
>the ZAC gascolator If you have an inline fuel filter downstream from the
>gascolator would a screen in the gascolator just be overkill? Or is it
>worth upgrading to a gascolator with a filter screen?
>
>
>George
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
It is debabtable where the filter should be...If you plug the filter you
will suck hard on the fuel and vapour lock the pump....Other experience
have shown the facets to be pretty dirt tolerant.
These points woud argue to putting it after the pump, i.e NO
restrictions prior to the pump. Of course you will have a filter for
each pump if you have two parallel.
High pressure FI pumps are definatly NOT dirt tolerant, so for my RV7 I
reluctantly have a filter before each pump.
But Joe is right flooded suction is the most important of all...When it
specifies "Lift" in the catalogue put this value to zero...Its just too
risky.
In my 601 the Facet pumps are in the wing roots.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe
Bienkowski
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Joe Bienkowski <joeb47@verizon.net>
Dear George,
But MOST IMPORTANT of ALL! The Facet pump should be physically LOW.
You really want the pump intake to have a good supply of fuel at all
angles of attack!
The Facet pumps are pretty good, solid pumps. They are TERRIBLE air
pumps!
They do NOT do a good job of sucking air, so you always want the input
to the pump to be flooded!
Lastly, Facet recommends that the fuel filter should be BEFORE the pump
inlet so that you don't get junk into the pump that could impede the
motion of the plunger.
Best,
Joe Bienkowski, Bowling Green, OH
george.mueller@aurora.org wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: george.mueller@aurora.org
>
>Thanks to the list for all of the good comments about aux fuel pumps in
>the
>701 fuel system One thing that caused some confusion is that I left
>out the decimal points in the specs for the facet 40105 pump, which
>puts out
>25 to 45PSI (thats 2point5 to 4point5 PSI)
>
>>From the listers comments, it sounds like a 40105 in series with the
>>rotax
>mechanical pump will not impede the fuel flow when the facet pump is
>off So the system really would not know the facet pump is there when it
>was off Also it sounds like it would be better to have the in line
>fuel filter downstream of the facet pump rather than upstream
>
>A couple of other things I am wondering about One lister suggested
>that the facet pump should be installed upstream of the gascolator and
>the fuel filter Is this how most have done it? This route would, I
>assume, have a T connection from the wing tank lines, then the facet
>pump, then the gascolator, then the inline fuel filter, then on to the
>mechanical pump on the rotax Also, for those with an aux electric
>pump, does this help the problem of uneven tank drainage that some have
reported with the 701?
>Would running an aux electric pump pull fuel from both tanks more
evenly?
>I am also wondering about the fact that there is no fuel filter screen
>in the ZAC gascolator If you have an inline fuel filter downstream
>from the gascolator would a screen in the gascolator just be overkill?
>Or is it worth upgrading to a gascolator with a filter screen?
>
>
>George
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aux fuel pump in 701. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: nyterminat@aol.com
Gary,
I have the exact same situation, except that my left tank empties first. My gasolator
is right behind the pilots seat in the bottom of the fuselage. I have only
been able to fly 15 hrs so far but the left one definately empties first.
I tried switching fuel caps and it made no difference. I wonder if the tank being
closest to the gasolator makes a difference? Where is yours? I also put individual
tank shut off valves at each door header. I shut off my left one to balance
out the fuel. I also have an aux pump in series with the fuel line right
after the gasolator. Seems to work well, used to initally bring fuel to carbs
on 1st start up. I also use it for takeoff and landing.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX CH701/912S
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:52:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aux fuel pump in 701.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
What we note in this first 35 hours of flying the 701, is that the right wing
uses the gasoline first, the left tank is about 3/4 full when the right wing is
near empty (1/4). in flights of more than 2 or 3 an hours (depending of the real
flight time, off course).>
Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" <daberti@sbcglobal.net>
Although I have not checked the pump on my Rotax, most mechanical pumps will
leak through a small vent hole to the outside air if the diaphragm were to
get a hole. On cars what you would get is the smell of gasoline after shut
down. Sometimes a small witness line like you get with an oil leak. I have
not experienced one that pumped so much gas into the oil that it caused a
problem. I can't say the same from a faulty carb that leaked so much fuel
through a faulty power valve that I drained 6 quarts from the cars 4 quart
oil pan. It would drain the bowl into the manifold when you shut off the
car. That made it hard to start but once it ran it was fine.
""About a not probable failure (broken) of the mechanical pump
diaphgram... Could the gasoline be pumped inside the oil carter by the
electric pump? In this case the engine will blow because of lack of
oil?... ("washed" out by gasoline in a few minutes?)""
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aux fuel pump in 701. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank@core.com>
This situation might be caused by the differential pressure on the
vents. The propeller is sending s spinning column of air back toward the
wings, if the vent from the two tanks are not connected a different
pressure can be present in each tank causing one to empty before the
other. I plan on being able to feed form both tanks on my 601 so I
connected the vents.
Tim Shankland
nyterminat@aol.com wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: nyterminat@aol.com
>
> Gary,
>
>I have the exact same situation, except that my left tank empties first. My gasolator
is right behind the pilots seat in the bottom of the fuselage. I have
only been able to fly 15 hrs so far but the left one definately empties first.
I tried switching fuel caps and it made no difference. I wonder if the tank being
closest to the gasolator makes a difference? Where is yours? I also put individual
tank shut off valves at each door header. I shut off my left one to
balance out the fuel. I also have an aux pump in series with the fuel line right
after the gasolator. Seems to work well, used to initally bring fuel to carbs
on 1st start up. I also use it for takeoff and landing.
>
>Bob Spudis
>N701ZX CH701/912S
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:52:55 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aux fuel pump in 701.
>
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>
>
> What we note in this first 35 hours of flying the 701, is that the right wing
>uses the gasoline first, the left tank is about 3/4 full when the right wing
is
>near empty (1/4). in flights of more than 2 or 3 an hours (depending of the real
>flight time, off course).>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Aux fuel pump in 701. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Wouldn't connecting the two vents create a single point of failure?
-- Craig
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Aux fuel pump in 701. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hi Bob,
No, the gascolator is as the plans, in the "floor" behind the left (pilot)
seat... and in my case the right tank is the one to empty first, We even opened
the wing root skins to see if the hose curves were tighter in the left wing
and no, the curves were wide (normal) in both sides.
I recieved an off list mail from Ron, He has a good theory: that probably
I (we) are flying in cruise with one wing lower than the other, and the gasoline
migrates to the other tank... Yes could be... But has to be the rigging...
Because Larry (my brother) also flys the plane and same results, is dificult
to have the same type of flying, well, we had the same Instructor :-)
I thought about installing a pair of check valves...(one in each tank), but
two more things to go wrong. I am a "preacher" for simplicity and safety in
aviation, so wont do it.., only and just in case is the only safe solution.
Our only concern is: Can "air or vapor type lock" (sp?) happen if the right
tank empties first complete and air goes inside the gascolator and the gasoline
pump?...
I will appreciate your advise, Frank...
The electric fuel gauges could be so erratic...
This is why I have the idea of installing a 1 or 2 gallons "header tank" behind
the seat back (just in case has to be exactly in the middle of both seats!!!
:-) and use the same gascolator.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico
701 912S
nyterminat@aol.com wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: nyterminat@aol.com
Gary,
I have the exact same situation, except that my left tank empties first. My gasolator
is right behind the pilots seat in the bottom of the fuselage. I have only
been able to fly 15 hrs so far but the left one definately empties first.
I tried switching fuel caps and it made no difference. I wonder if the tank being
closest to the gasolator makes a difference? Where is yours? I also put individual
tank shut off valves at each door header. I shut off my left one to balance
out the fuel. I also have an aux pump in series with the fuel line right
after the gasolator. Seems to work well, used to initally bring fuel to carbs
on 1st start up. I also use it for takeoff and landing.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX CH701/912S
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Gower
Sent: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:52:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aux fuel pump in 701.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower
What we note in this first 35 hours of flying the 701, is that the right wing
uses the gasoline first, the left tank is about 3/4 full when the right wing is
near empty (1/4). in flights of more than 2 or 3 an hours (depending of the real
flight time, off course).>
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
Message 10
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| Subject: | Aux fuel pump in 701. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Davidson" <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
Wouldn't connecting the two vents create a single point of failure?
The idea is that both tanks still have their own vents, the vents are just
now connected. If one vent becomes clogged, that tank would still be vented
through the interconnection to the other tank's vent. This was recommended
to me if the fuel selector had the "Both" position by ZAC, assuming a two
wing tank - no header configuration. This was for a 601 too.
Jeff Davidson
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