Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:46 AM - Re: Questions About Bending Brake (ROBERT SCEPPA)
2. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: 701 fuel system (Larry)
3. 06:54 AM - Electric Flaps (Jeffrey A Beachy)
4. 11:08 AM - Aileron stiffness and force - XL (AndrewC)
5. 11:24 AM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (Gig Giacona)
6. 12:00 PM - Jabiru Engine Seminar (Pete Krotje)
7. 01:41 PM - oops (neitzel)
8. 01:53 PM - Engine delivery (neitzel)
9. 01:58 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (LarryMcFarland)
10. 02:12 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (Paul Mulwitz)
11. 02:30 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (cgalley)
12. 03:23 PM - Re: N701TD Flies Again! (nyterminat@aol.com)
13. 05:41 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (David X)
14. 05:55 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (Bryan Martin)
15. 07:05 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
16. 07:33 PM - tuskegee (alex trent)
17. 08:23 PM - Recessed elevator trim tab (Michel Therrien)
18. 08:46 PM - Re: tuskegee (David X)
19. 09:30 PM - New List member (Blueraven)
20. 10:24 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Questions About Bending Brake |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> I am using the Malco shears tool. I mounted it on a
> piece of 2x3 block and bolted on a table. I intend
> to use a guide and feed my large sheets of
> aluminum and cut them that way. You need two
> people however to do this cutting. I hope to get a
> pic on here to show how its done. I hope to make
> it adjustable for the many sizes to be cut.
--- Tebenkof@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com
>
> William,
>
> FWIW I have used my wood cutting band saw with 18
> tpi blade for cutting most
> thicknesses of aluminum sheet and extrusion. The
> cuts definitely needs
> smoothing with a file, and for long cuts it is hard
> to avoid some wandering.
> Still, in the absence of a good shear I have often
> found it to be most
> convenient. It does not distort the material at
> all.
>
> Jim Greenough
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 701 fuel system |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
There are many ways to plum fuel systems as have been discussed. I recently
re-worked mine. I spent a lot of time exploring the different methods and
came up with what I consider the best approach for me. You can find an
explanation and pictures on my site at www.skyhawg.com/fuelsystem.html.
Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave and Pam Fisher" <dpfisher@scottsbluff.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:18 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 fuel system
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dave and Pam Fisher
> <dpfisher@scottsbluff.net>
>
> At 12:58 AM 2/26/2006, you wrote:
>
>>Will the engine be sucking air from one tank before the other tank is
>>empty?
>>The bottom of the gas tank on the 701 is about three and a half feet above
>>the floor of the cabin. You may empty one tank before the other but both
>>tanks will be empty before you start sucking air. There may be 8 inches
>>more
>>fuel on one side than the other when you start sucking air but all of that
>>fuel will be in the fuel line. How much fuel does 8 inches of fuel line
>>hold? This is why most high wing Cessnas can operate with the fuel
>>selector
>>in the both position with no danger of draining one tank before the other.
>
> Hi list,
>
> Thanks for a great analysis, Bryan. The only thing I would add is that a
> gravity fed,Cessna style, fuel system should work fine if we fly our
> planes
> like Cessnas. If we expect to do high speed passes followed by zoom
> climbs,
> or takeoffs where we stand the plane on its tail, then it might be wise to
> have fuel in both tanks and one or two boost pumps.
> I'm now working on the fuel system for my 701 with 80 HP Continental,
> gravity fed, no electric, wing tanks only. I'm using 3/8 in. lines
> plumbed
> straight out of the tanks toward the cabin, through the trim channel
> above
> the doors, turn 90 degrees forward and down 30 degrees through a hand hold
> /corner brace made of one inch lawn chair tubing then curve down to a tee
> on the top center of the glare shield over the instrument panel. From the
> tee it will go down 30 degrees and forward through a ball type on-off
> valve
> and on down and a bit to the left to a fitting that goes through the
> bottom
> of the firewall to the gascolater and then level or up a bit to the carb.
> My tanks will each be vented to a tee just inside the lower wing skin. one
> leg of each tee will continue through the lower wing skin to an elbow
> turned 90 degrees forward into the wind. the other leg points toward the
> other wing and is connected to a cross vent tube along the inside top of
> the windshield so the vent pressure between the tanks can equalize. I'll
> try to avoid anything greater than a 30 degree nose high attitude, and
> I'll
> test the fuel flow on the ground at all expected flight conditions. My
> air
> cooled engine needs air speed to cool so I think it's a good idea to keep
> the climb angles down in any case. I talked to a guy with an 0200 powered
> 701 who had a somewhat similar fuel setup. He also had a boost pump but
> said it wasn't needed.
>
> I've not yet cleared this with Chris. I'd sure like to hear from anyone
> who has experience with a similar setup. Comments anyone??
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave, 701 with A80-8 Continental
>
>
> --
>
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jeffrey A Beachy <beachyjeff@juno.com>
I am considering the Skyshops electric flaps option on my CH701. Has
anyone installed the Skyshop electric flaps on a flying CH701? If yes,
how do you like it, especially compared to the manual flaps? Thanks!
Jeff B.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" <andrewgcampbell@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi there
I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme
du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight. By
excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it fixed.
Elevator control is fine by comparison.
My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK authorities.
Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right is applied
the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral. Left
aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would like.
I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as
a starting point, but this is really too much!
The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't know
what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of anyone who has the twin
stick would be much appreciated. The twin stick arrangement appears to have
the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are really just
holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite
high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I can't
understand why right aileron requires more force and is more prone to return to
neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]
Thanks in advance
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=17843#17843
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
Do you get the same stiffness on the ground?
--------
W.R. Gig Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=17868#17868
Message 6
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| Subject: | Jabiru Engine Seminar |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Hello All,
One position remains for the March 10 Jabiru engine seminar at Jabiru USA
Sport Aircraft. Please visit www.usjabiru.com <http://www.usjabiru.com/>
for details or contact Dana at 800-JABIRU1.
Pete
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" <n963wb@frontiernet.net>
Sorry about the engine delivery question, please ignor. Hit reply by
mistake.
Dick Neitzel
do not archive
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" <n963wb@frontiernet.net>
Hello Pete
Last time we talked there was mention of a February delivery of a 2200. As
you know I desire the 20 amp alternator. Is it possible to have the engine
built in Australia with the 20 amp alternator? What is going to be my
projected delivery date?
I assume the cowling is now ready for the 701 and the 2200 installation
Will the engine mount previously shipped to me work with the new cowling?
Thank you for your time.
Dick Neitzel
715 542 3832
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru Engine Seminar
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
>
> Hello All,
>
>
> One position remains for the March 10 Jabiru engine seminar at Jabiru USA
> Sport Aircraft. Please visit www.usjabiru.com <http://www.usjabiru.com/>
> for details or contact Dana at 800-JABIRU1.
>
>
> Pete
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
AndrewC wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" <andrewgcampbell@tiscali.co.uk>
>
>Hi there
>
>I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme
du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight. By
excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it
fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison.
>
>My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK authorities.
Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right is applied
the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral. Left
aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would like.
I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes
as a starting point, but this is really too much!
>
>The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't know
what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of anyone who has the twin
stick would be much appreciated. The twin stick arrangement appears to have
the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are really just
holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite
high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I can't
understand why right aileron requires more force and is more prone to return
to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]
>
>Thanks in advance
>Andrew
>
>
>
Andrew,
It's entirely possible that someone has cut the hinge/aileron material
from something thicker than the .016 material needed for the ailerons.
Normally, the aileron force is slight to nil in standard turns and at
slow speed major aileron action can be felt as more resistant, but not
something
so noticeable to require a change. Better check your cables, belcranks
stick bearings and such for friction points and lubricate them first.
Larry McFarland - 601hds
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Andrew,
I wonder if the aileron bell crank pivot bolts are tightened too
much. Also, this area needs some lubricant, but I don't think lack
of lubricant would have as much impact as your problem indicates.
I would suggest you start disconnecting parts, starting at the bolt
in the aileron control horn and feel for the tight movement. If you
keep dividing the aileron control system in half and chasing down the
tight spot you should find it rather quickly.
Good luck,
Paul
XL wings
At 11:01 AM 2/27/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" <andrewgcampbell@tiscali.co.uk>
>
>Hi there
>
>I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and
>the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to
>operate in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and
>my test pilot rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison.
>
>My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by
>the UK authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left
>and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back
>half-way towards neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by
>comparison but is still heavier than I would like. I understand
>that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a
>starting point, but this is really too much!
>
>The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way
>and don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of
>anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin
>stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through
>metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal
>plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high
>friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I
>can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more
>prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]
>
>Thanks in advance
>Andrew
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
I would first unfasten the ailerons from the rest of the system at the
ailerons. Then try see if the binding is still there. If it is, then the
problem may be as simple as lubrication or something in the way. If the
binding goes away, then your have a trailing edge that isn't straight. You
can check this first if you wish just by sighting down the trailing edge.
If it isn't straight, then you have a rebuild project.
Cy Galley - Chair,
Air Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> AndrewC wrote:
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC"
>><andrewgcampbell@tiscali.co.uk>
>>
>>Hi there
>>
>>I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the
>>probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate
>>in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot
>>rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison.
>>
>>My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK
>>authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left and when
>>right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards
>>neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier
>>than I would like. I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier
>>than in other planes as a starting point, but this is really too much!
>>
>>The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and
>>don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of anyone
>>who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin stick
>>arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through metal
>>"bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal plates) and one
>>delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high friction but I'm not
>>sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I can't understand why right
>>aileron requires more force and is more prone to return to neutral than
>>left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]
>>
>>Thanks in advance
>>Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>
> Andrew,
> It's entirely possible that someone has cut the hinge/aileron material
> from something thicker than the .016 material needed for the ailerons.
> Normally, the aileron force is slight to nil in standard turns and at
> slow speed major aileron action can be felt as more resistant, but not
> something
> so noticeable to require a change. Better check your cables, belcranks
> stick bearings and such for friction points and lubricate them first.
>
> Larry McFarland - 601hds
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: N701TD Flies Again! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: nyterminat@aol.com
Congratulations Mike! I am very glad to hear that all has gone well and you are
happy with the performance.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX siiting in the hanger because I'm in Ghana
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@ATT.NET>
Sent: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:11:13 -0600
Subject: Zenith-List: N701TD Flies Again!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Just to let those of you that have somewhat followed the trials and
tribulations on N701TD over the last year and a half
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
Purely a novice suggestion:
Try measuring aileron cable tension at various positions of the stick to see if
it's something related to the control geometry. Tension is supposed to be 25
inch-pounds +/-5.
If cable tensions are fairly consistant throughout the range of stick motion, I'd
start looking for things that bind or rub. At a minimum, cable tension mesurments
may help you narrow down which part of the control mechanism is stiffest.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=18255#18255
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
It may be that the aileron torque tube is slightly out of round. If the
bearing surface that the torque tube rides in is also slightly out of round,
at certain angles of rotation, the two could bind. This could happen if you
tighten the nut on the bolt holding the stop ring on the front of the torque
tube on the standard "Y" stick too tight. I don't know it the twin stick
option has a similar arrangement. You can't tighten the bolts going through
the steel tubes to the torque recommended in the torque tables because it
can crush the tubes. As I recall these bolts are drilled and use castle
nuts, so you just get them snug and install the cotter pin.
In any case, you will probably have to disconnect the aileron cables to
isolate the problem
on 2/27/06 2:01 PM, AndrewC at andrewgcampbell@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" <andrewgcampbell@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi there
>
> I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme
> du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight. By
> excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it
> fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison.
>
> My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK
> authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right
> is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral.
> Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would
> like. I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other
> planes as a starting point, but this is really too much!
>
> The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't
> know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of anyone who has the
> twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin stick arrangement appears to
> have the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are
> really just holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement
> seems quite high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here.
> Also I can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more
> prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Thanks in advance
> Andrew
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Andrew, I have to go along with Larry. Something is just not right ???? I
have duel sticks in my XL with a Jab 3300 and about 55 hours. A problem I had
with initial flights was the right aileron was a beast. Then I noticed I did not
have my rudder centered. The rudder was so stiff initially that at anything
over 100 mph it would not center on it's own. After I got used to re centering
the ball during climb out as the P factor played out the stiff right aileron
went away. Further, without aileron trim and no passenger the right aileron
should be a little stiff compared to left. Now she is so nimble it's scary. Breath
left or right and I'm dragging a wing tip. I recommend you re check fairleads
to see if they are binding. Also, the thread had a series of posts concerning
adjusting ailerons down some time back, but I can't remember why ?? Check the
archives, Best of Luck, Bill of Georgia N505WP
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent <atrent7@cogeco.ca>
Off topic but definitely aircraft related. Just got home from a
R.C.A,F.Association meeting where the guest speaker was Colonel Harry
Stewart, a Tuskegee Airman. Still actively flying at 81 yrs. Very
interesting talk and very informative. I had no idea of the trouble a
black man had getting to fly in the military, especially with a war
going on. Simply amazing, the prejudice and ignorance of the white man.
alex
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Recessed elevator trim tab |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Hello Group,
I would like to install a recessed trim tab on my
elevator. I remember seeing plans for this, but I
cannot find them anymore. Anybody would have this in
a file format?
Thanks!
Michel, 170 hours on my 601 HD
Last flight: Lac William, QC
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
That must have been a great experience to hear him speak.
I recommend the book "Black Knights" ... better than the movie; although I do like
pretty much anything Fishburn stars in :) The book does take an abrupt turn
in the middle, though.
They were the only unit not to lose a single bomber to enemy fire over German-occupied
territory; although 66 Tuskegee airmen were killed in escorts. Funny
how the b-17 bomber crews didn't see color when they preferred the Tuskegee escorts
over others.
Best part is when the president's wife takes an unplanned detour to the airfield
and insists on a ride in a small plane with a black man as the pilot. Shocking
(for that day and age)! The secret service were crapping their pants.
Yes, it was a different era and time. There's always room for improvement, but
the fact that we can be so shocked about it today shows how far things have progressed.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=18331#18331
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Blueraven <bluedog@ak.net>
I am considering the 801 and was wondering what were the worst problems
that arose during the construction and how did ZAC deal with you?
If this has been asked and answered, please let me know where the
answers are. Maybe send a link.
thanks
Bluedog
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Needless to say that please dont fly the plane until you find the problem...
Paul idea is a good one.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Beguining a 601 XL kit.
Do not archive.
Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
Hi Andrew,
I wonder if the aileron bell crank pivot bolts are tightened too
much. Also, this area needs some lubricant, but I don't think lack
of lubricant would have as much impact as your problem indicates.
I would suggest you start disconnecting parts, starting at the bolt
in the aileron control horn and feel for the tight movement. If you
keep dividing the aileron control system in half and chasing down the
tight spot you should find it rather quickly.
Good luck,
Paul
XL wings
At 11:01 AM 2/27/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC"
>
>Hi there
>
>I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and
>the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to
>operate in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and
>my test pilot rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison.
>
>My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by
>the UK authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left
>and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back
>half-way towards neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by
>comparison but is still heavier than I would like. I understand
>that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a
>starting point, but this is really too much!
>
>The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way
>and don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of
>anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin
>stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through
>metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal
>plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high
>friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I
>can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more
>prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes]
>
>Thanks in advance
>Andrew
>
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