---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/27/06: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - Re: Questions About Bending Brake (ROBERT SCEPPA) 2. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: 701 fuel system (Larry) 3. 06:54 AM - Electric Flaps (Jeffrey A Beachy) 4. 11:08 AM - Aileron stiffness and force - XL (AndrewC) 5. 11:24 AM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (Gig Giacona) 6. 12:00 PM - Jabiru Engine Seminar (Pete Krotje) 7. 01:41 PM - oops (neitzel) 8. 01:53 PM - Engine delivery (neitzel) 9. 01:58 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (LarryMcFarland) 10. 02:12 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (Paul Mulwitz) 11. 02:30 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (cgalley) 12. 03:23 PM - Re: N701TD Flies Again! (nyterminat@aol.com) 13. 05:41 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (David X) 14. 05:55 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (Bryan Martin) 15. 07:05 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 16. 07:33 PM - tuskegee (alex trent) 17. 08:23 PM - Recessed elevator trim tab (Michel Therrien) 18. 08:46 PM - Re: tuskegee (David X) 19. 09:30 PM - New List member (Blueraven) 20. 10:24 PM - Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:07 AM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Questions About Bending Brake --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > I am using the Malco shears tool. I mounted it on a > piece of 2x3 block and bolted on a table. I intend > to use a guide and feed my large sheets of > aluminum and cut them that way. You need two > people however to do this cutting. I hope to get a > pic on here to show how its done. I hope to make > it adjustable for the many sizes to be cut. --- Tebenkof@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com > > William, > > FWIW I have used my wood cutting band saw with 18 > tpi blade for cutting most > thicknesses of aluminum sheet and extrusion. The > cuts definitely needs > smoothing with a file, and for long cuts it is hard > to avoid some wandering. > Still, in the absence of a good shear I have often > found it to be most > convenient. It does not distort the material at > all. > > Jim Greenough > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:32 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 fuel system --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" There are many ways to plum fuel systems as have been discussed. I recently re-worked mine. I spent a lot of time exploring the different methods and came up with what I consider the best approach for me. You can find an explanation and pictures on my site at www.skyhawg.com/fuelsystem.html. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave and Pam Fisher" Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:18 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 fuel system > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dave and Pam Fisher > > > At 12:58 AM 2/26/2006, you wrote: > >>Will the engine be sucking air from one tank before the other tank is >>empty? >>The bottom of the gas tank on the 701 is about three and a half feet above >>the floor of the cabin. You may empty one tank before the other but both >>tanks will be empty before you start sucking air. There may be 8 inches >>more >>fuel on one side than the other when you start sucking air but all of that >>fuel will be in the fuel line. How much fuel does 8 inches of fuel line >>hold? This is why most high wing Cessnas can operate with the fuel >>selector >>in the both position with no danger of draining one tank before the other. > > Hi list, > > Thanks for a great analysis, Bryan. The only thing I would add is that a > gravity fed,Cessna style, fuel system should work fine if we fly our > planes > like Cessnas. If we expect to do high speed passes followed by zoom > climbs, > or takeoffs where we stand the plane on its tail, then it might be wise to > have fuel in both tanks and one or two boost pumps. > I'm now working on the fuel system for my 701 with 80 HP Continental, > gravity fed, no electric, wing tanks only. I'm using 3/8 in. lines > plumbed > straight out of the tanks toward the cabin, through the trim channel > above > the doors, turn 90 degrees forward and down 30 degrees through a hand hold > /corner brace made of one inch lawn chair tubing then curve down to a tee > on the top center of the glare shield over the instrument panel. From the > tee it will go down 30 degrees and forward through a ball type on-off > valve > and on down and a bit to the left to a fitting that goes through the > bottom > of the firewall to the gascolater and then level or up a bit to the carb. > My tanks will each be vented to a tee just inside the lower wing skin. one > leg of each tee will continue through the lower wing skin to an elbow > turned 90 degrees forward into the wind. the other leg points toward the > other wing and is connected to a cross vent tube along the inside top of > the windshield so the vent pressure between the tanks can equalize. I'll > try to avoid anything greater than a 30 degree nose high attitude, and > I'll > test the fuel flow on the ground at all expected flight conditions. My > air > cooled engine needs air speed to cool so I think it's a good idea to keep > the climb angles down in any case. I talked to a guy with an 0200 powered > 701 who had a somewhat similar fuel setup. He also had a boost pump but > said it wasn't needed. > > I've not yet cleared this with Chris. I'd sure like to hear from anyone > who has experience with a similar setup. Comments anyone?? > > Thanks, > > Dave, 701 with A80-8 Continental > > > -- > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Electric Flaps From: Jeffrey A Beachy --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jeffrey A Beachy I am considering the Skyshops electric flaps option on my CH701. Has anyone installed the Skyshop electric flaps on a flying CH701? If yes, how do you like it, especially compared to the manual flaps? Thanks! Jeff B. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL From: "AndrewC" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" Hi there I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison. My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would like. I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a starting point, but this is really too much! The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes] Thanks in advance Andrew Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=17843#17843 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" Do you get the same stiffness on the ground? -------- W.R. Gig Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=17868#17868 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:11 PM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru Engine Seminar --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" Hello All, One position remains for the March 10 Jabiru engine seminar at Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft. Please visit www.usjabiru.com for details or contact Dana at 800-JABIRU1. Pete ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:51 PM PST US From: "neitzel" Subject: Zenith-List: oops --> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" Sorry about the engine delivery question, please ignor. Hit reply by mistake. Dick Neitzel do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:03 PM PST US From: "neitzel" Subject: Zenith-List: Engine delivery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" Hello Pete Last time we talked there was mention of a February delivery of a 2200. As you know I desire the 20 amp alternator. Is it possible to have the engine built in Australia with the 20 amp alternator? What is going to be my projected delivery date? I assume the cowling is now ready for the 701 and the 2200 installation Will the engine mount previously shipped to me work with the new cowling? Thank you for your time. Dick Neitzel 715 542 3832 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Krotje" Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 1:09 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru Engine Seminar > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" > > Hello All, > > > One position remains for the March 10 Jabiru engine seminar at Jabiru USA > Sport Aircraft. Please visit www.usjabiru.com > for details or contact Dana at 800-JABIRU1. > > > Pete > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:28 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland AndrewC wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" > >Hi there > >I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison. > >My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would like. I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a starting point, but this is really too much! > >The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes] > >Thanks in advance >Andrew > > > Andrew, It's entirely possible that someone has cut the hinge/aileron material from something thicker than the .016 material needed for the ailerons. Normally, the aileron force is slight to nil in standard turns and at slow speed major aileron action can be felt as more resistant, but not something so noticeable to require a change. Better check your cables, belcranks stick bearings and such for friction points and lubricate them first. Larry McFarland - 601hds ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:54 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Andrew, I wonder if the aileron bell crank pivot bolts are tightened too much. Also, this area needs some lubricant, but I don't think lack of lubricant would have as much impact as your problem indicates. I would suggest you start disconnecting parts, starting at the bolt in the aileron control horn and feel for the tight movement. If you keep dividing the aileron control system in half and chasing down the tight spot you should find it rather quickly. Good luck, Paul XL wings At 11:01 AM 2/27/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" > >Hi there > >I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and >the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to >operate in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and >my test pilot rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison. > >My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by >the UK authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left >and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back >half-way towards neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by >comparison but is still heavier than I would like. I understand >that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a >starting point, but this is really too much! > >The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way >and don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of >anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin >stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through >metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal >plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high >friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I >can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more >prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes] > >Thanks in advance >Andrew > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:04 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" I would first unfasten the ailerons from the rest of the system at the ailerons. Then try see if the binding is still there. If it is, then the problem may be as simple as lubrication or something in the way. If the binding goes away, then your have a trailing edge that isn't straight. You can check this first if you wish just by sighting down the trailing edge. If it isn't straight, then you have a rebuild project. Cy Galley - Chair, Air Emergency Aircraft Repair A Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > > AndrewC wrote: > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" >> >> >>Hi there >> >>I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the >>probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate >>in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot >>rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison. >> >>My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK >>authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left and when >>right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards >>neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier >>than I would like. I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier >>than in other planes as a starting point, but this is really too much! >> >>The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and >>don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of anyone >>who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin stick >>arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through metal >>"bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal plates) and one >>delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high friction but I'm not >>sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I can't understand why right >>aileron requires more force and is more prone to return to neutral than >>left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes] >> >>Thanks in advance >>Andrew >> >> >> > > Andrew, > It's entirely possible that someone has cut the hinge/aileron material > from something thicker than the .016 material needed for the ailerons. > Normally, the aileron force is slight to nil in standard turns and at > slow speed major aileron action can be felt as more resistant, but not > something > so noticeable to require a change. Better check your cables, belcranks > stick bearings and such for friction points and lubricate them first. > > Larry McFarland - 601hds > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:38 PM PST US From: nyterminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N701TD Flies Again! --> Zenith-List message posted by: nyterminat@aol.com Congratulations Mike! I am very glad to hear that all has gone well and you are happy with the performance. Bob Spudis N701ZX siiting in the hanger because I'm in Ghana do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sinclair Sent: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:11:13 -0600 Subject: Zenith-List: N701TD Flies Again! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair Just to let those of you that have somewhat followed the trials and tribulations on N701TD over the last year and a half ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:03 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron stiffness and force - XL From: "David X" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" Purely a novice suggestion: Try measuring aileron cable tension at various positions of the stick to see if it's something related to the control geometry. Tension is supposed to be 25 inch-pounds +/-5. If cable tensions are fairly consistant throughout the range of stick motion, I'd start looking for things that bind or rub. At a minimum, cable tension mesurments may help you narrow down which part of the control mechanism is stiffest. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=18255#18255 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin It may be that the aileron torque tube is slightly out of round. If the bearing surface that the torque tube rides in is also slightly out of round, at certain angles of rotation, the two could bind. This could happen if you tighten the nut on the bolt holding the stop ring on the front of the torque tube on the standard "Y" stick too tight. I don't know it the twin stick option has a similar arrangement. You can't tighten the bolts going through the steel tubes to the torque recommended in the torque tables because it can crush the tubes. As I recall these bolts are drilled and use castle nuts, so you just get them snug and install the cotter pin. In any case, you will probably have to disconnect the aileron cables to isolate the problem on 2/27/06 2:01 PM, AndrewC at andrewgcampbell@tiscali.co.uk wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" > > Hi there > > I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and the probleme > du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to operate in flight. By > excessive I mean, two hands are required and my test pilot rightly wants it > fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison. > > My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by the UK > authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left and when right > is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back half-way towards neutral. > Left aileron behaves normally by comparison but is still heavier than I would > like. I understand that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other > planes as a starting point, but this is really too much! > > The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way and don't > know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of anyone who has the > twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin stick arrangement appears to > have the torque tube rotating through metal "bearings" (though these are > really just holes in metal plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement > seems quite high friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. > Also I can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more > prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes] > > Thanks in advance > Andrew > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:29 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Andrew, I have to go along with Larry. Something is just not right ???? I have duel sticks in my XL with a Jab 3300 and about 55 hours. A problem I had with initial flights was the right aileron was a beast. Then I noticed I did not have my rudder centered. The rudder was so stiff initially that at anything over 100 mph it would not center on it's own. After I got used to re centering the ball during climb out as the P factor played out the stiff right aileron went away. Further, without aileron trim and no passenger the right aileron should be a little stiff compared to left. Now she is so nimble it's scary. Breath left or right and I'm dragging a wing tip. I recommend you re check fairleads to see if they are binding. Also, the thread had a series of posts concerning adjusting ailerons down some time back, but I can't remember why ?? Check the archives, Best of Luck, Bill of Georgia N505WP ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:27 PM PST US From: alex trent Subject: Zenith-List: tuskegee --> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent Off topic but definitely aircraft related. Just got home from a R.C.A,F.Association meeting where the guest speaker was Colonel Harry Stewart, a Tuskegee Airman. Still actively flying at 81 yrs. Very interesting talk and very informative. I had no idea of the trouble a black man had getting to fly in the military, especially with a war going on. Simply amazing, the prejudice and ignorance of the white man. alex do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:27 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Zenith-List: Recessed elevator trim tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Hello Group, I would like to install a recessed trim tab on my elevator. I remember seeing plans for this, but I cannot find them anymore. Anybody would have this in a file format? Thanks! Michel, 170 hours on my 601 HD Last flight: Lac William, QC ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: tuskegee From: "David X" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" That must have been a great experience to hear him speak. I recommend the book "Black Knights" ... better than the movie; although I do like pretty much anything Fishburn stars in :) The book does take an abrupt turn in the middle, though. They were the only unit not to lose a single bomber to enemy fire over German-occupied territory; although 66 Tuskegee airmen were killed in escorts. Funny how the b-17 bomber crews didn't see color when they preferred the Tuskegee escorts over others. Best part is when the president's wife takes an unplanned detour to the airfield and insists on a ride in a small plane with a black man as the pilot. Shocking (for that day and age)! The secret service were crapping their pants. Yes, it was a different era and time. There's always room for improvement, but the fact that we can be so shocked about it today shows how far things have progressed. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=18331#18331 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:46 PM PST US From: Blueraven Subject: Zenith-List: New List member --> Zenith-List message posted by: Blueraven I am considering the 801 and was wondering what were the worst problems that arose during the construction and how did ZAC deal with you? If this has been asked and answered, please let me know where the answers are. Maybe send a link. thanks Bluedog ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:10 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron stiffness and force - XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Needless to say that please dont fly the plane until you find the problem... Paul idea is a good one. Saludos Gary Gower Beguining a 601 XL kit. Do not archive. Paul Mulwitz wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Andrew, I wonder if the aileron bell crank pivot bolts are tightened too much. Also, this area needs some lubricant, but I don't think lack of lubricant would have as much impact as your problem indicates. I would suggest you start disconnecting parts, starting at the bolt in the aileron control horn and feel for the tight movement. If you keep dividing the aileron control system in half and chasing down the tight spot you should find it rather quickly. Good luck, Paul XL wings At 11:01 AM 2/27/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AndrewC" > >Hi there > >I'm still going through the test flying of my 601 XL, G-DROO, and >the probleme du jour is that the ailerons require excessive force to >operate in flight. By excessive I mean, two hands are required and >my test pilot rightly wants it fixed. Elevator control is fine by comparison. > >My XL has the twin sticks and the flap trim booster mod required by >the UK authorities. Application of right stick is heavier than left >and when right is applied the ailerons tend to want to settle back >half-way towards neutral. Left aileron behaves normally by >comparison but is still heavier than I would like. I understand >that aileron control on 601s is heavier than in other planes as a >starting point, but this is really too much! > >The problem is that I have no idea why they are behaving this way >and don't know what to change to try and sort it out. Experience of >anyone who has the twin stick would be much appreciated. The twin >stick arrangement appears to have the torque tube rotating through >metal "bearings" (though these are really just holes in metal >plates) and one delron bearing. This arrangement seems quite high >friction but I'm not sure what lubricant I can use here. Also I >can't understand why right aileron requires more force and is more >prone to return to neutral than left. Any ideas?! [Rolling Eyes] > >Thanks in advance >Andrew > ---------------------------------