---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/07/06: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:38 AM - lycoming 235 () 2. 03:26 AM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (David Johnson) 3. 04:25 AM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (Richard McLachlan) 4. 04:37 AM - Re: Which Swaging Tool? (Trainnut01@aol.com) 5. 05:52 AM - Re: Which Swaging Tool? (cgalley) 6. 05:52 AM - Re: lycoming 235 (Craig Moore) 7. 07:00 AM - Re: tragic accident (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (n801bh@netzero.com) 9. 07:09 AM - Re: Which Swaging Tool? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 07:55 AM - Re: tragic accident (Todd Osborne) 12. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 13. 09:07 AM - More fuel for the nutz/boltz fire (Zed Smith) 14. 09:22 AM - Re: More fuel for the nutz/boltz fire (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 09:49 AM - Re: tragic accident (Edward Moody II) 16. 09:53 AM - Bolts (Blueraven) 17. 10:15 AM - Re: tragic accident (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 18. 10:31 AM - Re: tragic accident (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 19. 10:55 AM - Re: tragic accident (Paul Mulwitz) 20. 11:23 AM - Degaus (Tommy Walker) 21. 12:18 PM - Tragic Accident (Doug Sire) 22. 12:47 PM - Re: Tragic Accident (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 23. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (cgalley) 24. 02:22 PM - Two Magazine Articles Featuring the 601XL (jim) 25. 04:42 PM - Stabilizer Skin (BATAR@aol.com) 26. 05:03 PM - Re: Stabilizer Skin (Graham Kirby) 27. 05:50 PM - EGTs high on descent? (LarryMcFarland) 28. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts. (Gary Gower) 29. 07:09 PM - Franklin Engines? (Don Mountain) 30. 07:35 PM - Subaru oil and avgas (Michel Therrien) 31. 08:32 PM - Re: Subaru oil and avgas (Mike Sinclair) 32. 09:02 PM - Re: tragic accident (Gary Gower) 33. 10:06 PM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (long) (Gary Gower) 34. 10:40 PM - Re: Tragic Accident... (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: lycoming 235 From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: I looked into using an 0-290 vs 0-235 and they are virtually the same weight. I don't think any of the 0-290's are dynafocal mount, so you would need to fabricate a motor mount. They are rated 125 hp and designed to burn auto gas. Craig S. N601XS 601xl lyc 0-235 wiring and FWF in progress. I've got a O-290 Ground power that's probably to heavey, but myabe not. ************************************************************************ This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ************************************************************************ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:20 AM PST US From: "David Johnson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Johnson" If you are in the U.K. Zenith simply don't want to know. Our kits are supplied by CZAW and they provide tech. support which I have always found to be very good. I tried to buy the rivet puller with the formed heads from Zenith - ordered it on-line, order accepted etc. Months later no sign of it, when I queried it was told they wouldn't supply until I signed some form. If you are a U.K. builder and need help, contact Milan at CZAW, E-mail is qm@czaw.cz Dave Johnson do not archive ---- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:20 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > I am really surprised by your problem with Zenith. They have always > been very responsive to me. > > Perhaps you need to include your serial number with your inquiry? > > Paul > Xl wings > > > >And, as with previous experiences, with our other friend, Richard Mc in > >the U.K., Zenith > >will not answer technical questions put to them, even on a Zenith > >aircraft. Not sure what the > >problem is here.................. > > > >Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > >do not archive > > ----- > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:01 AM PST US From: "Richard McLachlan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" Agreed If you are in the UK you can forget Zenith completely. We had a serious problem and they simply refused to answer or even acknowledge any communications. The UK distributor is equally useless but the Czech people are excellent. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Johnson" Sent: 07 March 2006 13:04 Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Johnson" > > > If you are in the U.K. Zenith simply don't want to know. Our kits are > supplied by CZAW and they provide tech. support which I have always found > to > be very good. > > I tried to buy the rivet puller with the formed heads from Zenith - > ordered > it on-line, order accepted etc. Months later no sign of it, when I queried > it was told they wouldn't supply until I signed some form. > > If you are a U.K. builder and need help, contact Milan at CZAW, E-mail is > qm@czaw.cz > > Dave Johnson > > do not archive > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Mulwitz" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:20 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >> >> I am really surprised by your problem with Zenith. They have always >> been very responsive to me. >> >> Perhaps you need to include your serial number with your inquiry? >> >> Paul >> Xl wings >> >> >> >> >And, as with previous experiences, with our other friend, Richard Mc in >> >the U.K., Zenith >> >will not answer technical questions put to them, even on a Zenith >> >aircraft. Not sure what the >> >problem is here.................. >> > >> >Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >> >do not archive >> >> ----- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:08 AM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Which Swaging Tool? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trainnut01@aol.com I have a tool that appears to be identical to the Aircraft Spruce economy tool, I got it at Home Depot. Carroll ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:31 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Which Swaging Tool? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Make sure you check the squeezes for the correct diameter. American Champion just had an AD for that on their factory built Nico-Press control cables. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Which Swaging Tool? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trainnut01@aol.com > > I have a tool that appears to be identical to the Aircraft Spruce economy > tool, I got it at Home Depot. > Carroll > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:31 AM PST US From: Craig Moore Subject: Re: Zenith-List: lycoming 235 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore Hello, I don't know the latest details about the company, but Franklin has new 4A-235-B31 (125 hp) engines listed on their site for $6900. Fits on an O-200 mount. http://franklinengines.com/index.cfm Craig Moore A&P 701 Builder wannabe --- Craig.Spainhower@exeloncorp.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > > I looked into using an 0-290 vs 0-235 and they are > virtually the same weight. > I don't think any of the 0-290's are dynafocal > mount, so you would need to > fabricate a motor mount. They are rated 125 hp and > designed to burn auto gas. > > Craig S. > N601XS 601xl lyc 0-235 wiring and FWF in progress. > > I've got a O-290 Ground power that's probably to > heavey, but myabe not. > > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain > Exelon Corporation > proprietary information, which is privileged, > confidential, or subject > to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation > family of Companies. > This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity > to which it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient of this > e-mail, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination, distribution, > copying, or action taken in relation to the contents > of and attachments > to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be > unlawful. If you have > received this e-mail in error, please notify the > sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copy of this > e-mail and any > printout. Thank You. > ************************************************************************ > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:40 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: tragic accident From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" No but isn't this the second example of this happening recently?? I do hope they identify the cause quickly so the entire fleet can be inspected. Us HD(s) owners had a bunch of wing spar slice plates with holes too close to the edge...Did'nt hear of any failures due to this though. I hope ZAC is all over this one?? Frank HDS 392 hours...For sale very soon Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fritz Gurschick Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 6:11 PM Subject: Zenith-List: tragic accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fritz Gurschick Has anyone heard as to what went wrong to cause this tragic accident?-------- Fritz NTSB Identification: LAX06LA105 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Wednesday, February 08, 2006 in Oakdale, CA Aircraft: Zenith Aircraft Company Zodiac 601XL, registration: N105RH Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On February 8, 2006, at 1518 Pacific standard time, an experimental Zenith Aircraft Company Zodiac 601XL, broke up in flight and impacted flat open terrain in a nose down attitude near Oakdale Airport (O27), Oakdale, California. The pilot/owner operated the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The airplane was destroyed. The private pilot/owner and the certified flight instructor (CFI) were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the local area flight that departed Modesto City-County Airport-Harry Sham Field (MOD), Modesto, California, about 1500. No flight plan had been filed. Witnesses, who saw them boarding at Modesto, indicated that the CFI was seated in the left seat, and the pilot/owner was seated in the right seat. According to witnesses in the area, the airplane entered the pattern for landing at Oakdale about 1515. The left wing bent up (perpendicular to the fuselage) and folded back and the airplane started to spin to the right. Other witnesses reported that the airplane completed one full revolution before the right wing bent up (perpendicular to the fuselage) and folded back. The airplane's nose pitched down between 60-70 degrees, and impacted the ground. No unusual noises were heard coming from the engine. According to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) airworthiness inspector, the airplane was purchased in Hemet, California. The airplane was delivered to Modesto on December 15, 2005, where it sat in its hangar until the day of the accident. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:40 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 bolts. It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right size, not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality bolts and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the best stuff for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was honest and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the whole debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better way to deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, wholesaler to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all the fraud to happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were charged and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far east where the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people who bought for the major manufacturers like Dorman, ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of the story never lives on like the rest of it does. do not archive There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 bolts. It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right size, not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality bolts and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the best stuff for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was honest and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the whole debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better way to deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, wholesaler to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all the fraud to happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were charged and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far east where the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people who bought for the major manufacturers like Dorman, ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of the story never lives on like the rest of it does. do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Which Swaging Tool? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Have a chat to your local boat yard if one is nearby....Those little nut and bolt swagers are a pain in the rear! My local boat yard let me borrow theirs but I bet if you offered them a hefty deposit they would let you borrow one for say $10....The big professional units are like night and day...Sooo much easier to use! Just a thought Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Which Swaging Tool? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower I am using the big professional one, also from Spruce, is like a chain cutter pliers but with the swages calibrated. part number: 12-12400 SWAGING TOOL 1-SC WITH CUTTER Also got the Go- noGo tool inexpensive but necesary: 13-03814 GA-1P GO NO-GO SLEEVE GAUGE ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Just a note that it is very difficult to break a bolt in service due to over torquing...USUALLY IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE UNDER TORQUED. The torques listed for AN hardware is extremly low IMO. OK in shear applications (most of the airframe) but not in cyclic tension applications like a prop hub or something. It goes like this...For a cyclicly tesioned bolt the torque should be high enough such that the tension in the fastener is higher than is seen in service. I.e when a cylinder head is torqued down the tension in the studs (bolts) is always the same because the pre tension in the bolt is higher than is caused by the combustion process. If the tension is less than the cyclic load the bolt will eventually fail due to the repetive cyclic forces the fastener sees. Lesson...Always make sure your bolts (in cyclic load applications) are torqued properly and er on the side of over torquing rather than under torquing if your unsure or have no choice such as when using a castle nut and cotter pin Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" --> There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 bolts. It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right size, not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////// This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality bolts and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We strived to hold the car/boat or ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:32 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: tragic accident From: "Todd Osborne" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Todd Osborne" Isn't this the same accident we heard about right after it happened? Todd Osborne Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com Web Site: www.toddtown.com MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:44 AM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com In a message dated 3/6/2006 9:37:44 PM Central Standard Time, ggower_99@yahoo.com writes: No, not at all. What problem do you had? Saludos Gary Gower Gary, No problem as they are not yet installed. My question was sent to add the metric bolts to the subject, rather than to ignore them. Prop bolts are the ones we need to know about, and maintain often. Do you happen to know how the metric bolts fit into the grade 8/ AN/MS strength question? Regards, Jerry ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:14 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: More fuel for the nutz/boltz fire --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith List, I'm told by a heavy equipment mechanic, who is employed by a Caterpillar distributor, that Cat manufactures its own fasteners. Bolts, nuts, flat washers and lock washers, etc. This astute gent says that given the strength requirement for their needs, Cat long ago quit the open market and produces these items internally. Most newer or later model Cat equipment is built metric for the global market, he says, but adds that Cat still produces non-metric for the repair of older pre-metric machines. For whatever its worth, and as pricey as they may be, this fellow says that a Cat "Grade 8" does meet all the requirements, published somewhere, for that Grade. Those amongst the heavy equipment crowd can jump in here at will.....the usual disclaimer applies. For whatever its worth, Regards, Zed 701/R912/90%/etc do not archive do not over-torque ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:25 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: More fuel for the nutz/boltz fire From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" More importantly do not UNDER torque! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zed Smith Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:04 AM Subject: Zenith-List: More fuel for the nutz/boltz fire --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith List, I'm told by a heavy equipment mechanic, who is employed by a Caterpillar distributor, that Cat manufactures its own fasteners. Bolts, nuts, flat washers and lock washers, etc. This astute gent says that given the strength requirement for their needs, Cat long ago quit the open market and produces these items internally. Most newer or later model Cat equipment is built metric for the global market, he says, but adds that Cat still produces non-metric for the repair of older pre-metric machines. For whatever its worth, and as pricey as they may be, this fellow says that a Cat "Grade 8" does meet all the requirements, published somewhere, for that Grade. Those amongst the heavy equipment crowd can jump in here at will.....the usual disclaimer applies. For whatever its worth, Regards, Zed 701/R912/90%/etc do not archive do not over-torque ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:11 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tragic accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" This accident is the same one that was brought up on the list about 5 - 6 weeks ago. Still it would be good to hear what the cause was. Ed Moody II Rayne LA 601XL waiting on kit Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: tragic accident > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > No but isn't this the second example of this happening recently?? > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fritz > Gurschick > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 6:11 PM > To: Zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: tragic accident > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fritz Gurschick > > Has anyone heard as to what went wrong to cause this tragic > accident?-------- Fritz ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:16 AM PST US From: Blueraven Subject: Zenith-List: Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Blueraven Hey, I'm new to the forum and wanted to say something abt the bolts question. :-) I have designed some hyd systems for an auger and usually there is a weak link that you can allow to fail so the rest of the sytem doesn't fail. I'd never 2nd guess a designers materials usage.. Well i wld since im so damn curious and an Engineer. But for the most part i wouldnt change things for no reason. I'd have to have a 'design' reason, not a money reason. =-O An axle for a wheel needs to be strong and not break. On the other hand, the grade 8's are pretty brittle and the spec'd bolts will flex w/o breaking long after the 8's will break. =-O I wldnt do it.. >:o Best Regards.. BR ============= ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:48 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tragic accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com This to all 601XL drivers, based on the description from the eye witness of the accident, that the wing folded back, we have been brain storming what would have to occur to set that in motion and the hypothesis on first blush is if the ONE bolt that attaches the rear wing spar to the bracket on the side of the fuselage was to fail or fall out with air pushing and twisting rearward against the wing it could fold back perpendicular to the fuselage. Something like a Grumman Hellcat parked on a deck. Without any more information I am removing my bolts this weekend before I fly again and inspect those bolts and the bracket. Best regards, Bill N505WP ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:21 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: tragic accident From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Out of interest has anyone asked ZAC about what they know about this accident? Frank 601HDS Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 10:13 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tragic accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com This to all 601XL drivers, based on the description from the eye witness of the accident, that the wing folded back, we have been brain storming what would have to occur to set that in motion and the hypothesis on first blush is if the ONE bolt that attaches the rear wing spar to the bracket on the side of the fuselage was to fail or fall out with air pushing and twisting rearward against the wing it could fold back perpendicular to the fuselage. Something like a Grumman Hellcat parked on a deck. Without any more information I am removing my bolts this weekend before I fly again and inspect those bolts and the bracket. Best regards, Bill N505WP ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:25 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tragic accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Thanks for this analysis, Bill. I wonder if anyone has asked Chris about this issue. It would seem easy enough to add additional bolts to the rear spar if this is even a remote possibility. I am not at all qualified to have a significant opinion on anything like this, but it seems to me that failure of the main spar or perhaps failure of a line of rivets in the skin could also cause the wing to fold. I would really like to know what the NTSB concludes about this accident. I would also like to hear anything Chris Heintz has to say on this issue. I hope someone who has his ear brings this to his attention and urges him to speak on this kind of major structural failure. This is really spooky! Paul XL wings > Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com > >This to all 601XL drivers, based on the description from the eye witness of >the accident, that the wing folded back, we have been brain storming >what would >have to occur to set that in motion and the hypothesis on first blush is if >the ONE bolt that attaches the rear wing spar to the bracket on the >side of the >fuselage was to fail or fall out with air pushing and twisting rearward >against the wing it could fold back perpendicular to the fuselage. >Something like a >Grumman Hellcat parked on a deck. Without any more information I am removing >my bolts this weekend before I fly again and inspect those bolts and the >bracket. >Best regards, Bill N505WP > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:14 AM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Degaus --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Listers, Is there a homemade way to demagnetize the 4130 steel tubing in my 701 cabin frame before I rivet it in place? The cabin tubing and the Yoke appear to be pulling the compass to the west by about 8 degrees. I can actually change heading sitting here in my 10x20 garage by moving the yoke. If there's not a homemade way to do this, does anyone have a commercial solution. I live in a small town with few resources. Thanks, Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:28 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident From: "Doug Sire" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Sire" I'm thinking some of the circumstances surrounding the flight seem a bit odd. -The NTSB report states that the aircraft was delivered on 12/15/05 and sat in a hanger until the day of the flight/accident. So, this was apparently the first flight by the new owner, and he had an instructor as PIC (how much did these two weigh?). He may not have had any familiarity with the aircraft. -It appeared to be a nice day; winds were only three knots with good visibility. -The flight only lasted 15 minutes. -Since they were approaching to land, their airspped was slow. So, it doesn't look like an accident that could have been caused by any severe aerodynamics stress on the airframe. I'm wondering how the owner took delivery. Were the wings removed and then the aircraft was shipped to the buyer? Maybe the wing spar bolts were not all replaced. Maybe they were removed for inspection and not replaced. Why didn't the airplane fly for about two months after delivery? If this was a first flight, you would think it would have lasted more than 15 minutes. Possibly the pilot felt that something didn't feel right (loose wings) after takeoff and was returning to check it out. It is also entirely possible that the eyewitness accounts got it wrong and it was just an approach to landing stall that was the result of a first flight unfamiliarity with the aircraft. Eyewitnesses can often be very unreliable. I doubt it will prove to be a reflection on the quality of the design. Doug Sire 601XL ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:51 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I assume the wing attach uses the tired and trusted spar slice plates and single bolt at the rear spar. I do know some examples of the HD(S) had problems with the rear attach cracking but I never heard of one failing catastrophically. Definatly a weired one but I agree with you Doug I doubt it's a design flaw but I do hope the results are made VERY public. Makes you think though, I am working on the RV7 and thought I had tightened all the oil lines to the invert system....Nope they are still finger tight as are the prop bolts. I could see how a critical fastener could be missed. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Sire Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 12:15 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Sire" I'm thinking some of the circumstances surrounding the flight seem a bit odd. -The NTSB report states that the aircraft was delivered on 12/15/05 and sat in a hanger until the day of the flight/accident. So, this was apparently the first flight by the new owner, and he had an instructor as PIC (how much did these two weigh?). He may not have had any familiarity with the aircraft. -It appeared to be a nice day; winds were only three knots with good visibility. -The flight only lasted 15 minutes. -Since they were approaching to land, their airspped was slow. So, it doesn't look like an accident that could have been caused by any severe aerodynamics stress on the airframe. I'm wondering how the owner took delivery. Were the wings removed and then the aircraft was shipped to the buyer? Maybe the wing spar bolts were not all replaced. Maybe they were removed for inspection and not replaced. Why didn't the airplane fly for about two months after delivery? If this was a first flight, you would think it would have lasted more than 15 minutes. Possibly the pilot felt that something didn't feel right (loose wings) after takeoff and was returning to check it out. It is also entirely possible that the eyewitness accounts got it wrong and it was just an approach to landing stall that was the result of a first flight unfamiliarity with the aircraft. Eyewitnesses can often be very unreliable. I doubt it will prove to be a reflection on the quality of the design. Doug Sire 601XL ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:51 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" You are correct but since things don't always get the proper treatment, it was interesting to find the bolt that lasted the longest was the less brittle, tougher AN bolt which is legal for a prop. Class 8s are not legal for certified. Cy Galley - Chair, Air Emergency Aircraft Repair A Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:55 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" > > > > There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 > bolts. > It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right > size, > not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a > combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six > properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem. > > Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com > > ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were > some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality bolts > and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first > surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We > strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the > best stuff for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was > honest and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the > whole debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better way > to deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, > wholesaler to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all the > fraud to happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were > charged and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far > east where the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people > who bought for the major manufacturers like Dorm! > an, ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor > quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to > have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as > grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of > the story never lives on like the rest of it does. > > do not archive > > > There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 > bolts. > It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right > size, > not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a > combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six > properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem. > > Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com > > ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were > some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality bolts > and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first > surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We > strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the > best stuff for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was honest > and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the whole > debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better way to > deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, wholesaler > to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all the fraud to > happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were charged > and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far east where > the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people who bought > for the major manufacturers like Dorman! > , ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor > quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to > have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as > grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of > the story never lives on like the rest of it does. > > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:04 PM PST US From: "jim" Subject: Zenith-List: Two Magazine Articles Featuring the 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" All, There will be feature articles on my 1-Week Sport Pilot School and our Zenair 601XL SLSA in the April 2006 issues of "Plane and Pilot" and "Popular Mechanics". Both magazines will be on the shelves within the next week. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes The Mid-Atlantic Center of SportsPlanes.com www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 Jim@Pellien.com Sent via the WebMail system at mail.pellien.com ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:20 PM PST US From: BATAR@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Stabilizer Skin --> Zenith-List message posted by: BATAR@aol.com Help! I finished the stabilizer frame, and placed the skin on it, and found it too short on the bottom side. The end ribs, 6T1-1, measure just about 450 mm from the front tip to the rear on both the top and bottom. The skin measures 450 on the top, and 425 on the bottom. If I put the skin flush against the rear edge of the bottom of the frame, it doesn't fit around the front of the rib. If I put the curve of the skin even with the nose of the rib, it doesn't reach the rear edge of the frame. Any guesses what I have done wrong. Thanks in advance for any ideas. Al Massey Readfield, Maine ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:48 PM PST US From: "Graham Kirby" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Stabilizer Skin --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" Al, Assuming this is a 601 and that the 601s all have the same stab: From your descriptions it sounds like you may have the front and rear spars the wrong way round. The rear spar has a flange facing rearwards on the top and forwards on the bottom. This is why the top skin is longer. The drawing on 6-T-2 labeled "Stabilizer Skin Riveting" should explain. Graham Kirby 601HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: BATAR@aol.com Help! I finished the stabilizer frame, and placed the skin on it, and found it too short on the bottom side. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:39 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: EGTs high on descent? --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland *Hi guys,* *It was suggested that the following should be put into Zenith pages because a 912 Rotax with Bings might just provide a similar experience to one I recently had with my Stratus.* *I was flying yesterday and noticed something interesting for those of us with Bing carbs. EGTs had climbed to their normal 1420 at high climb 4800 rpm and the higher I got (4500 ft), the more the EGTs drifted lower. It eventually permitted a high rpm without going above the 1400 deg f. Nice for a good cross-country cruise, but as I descended to land, EGTs climbed back up to set-limits on my EIS and rpms had to be reduced to keep EGTs at or below limits. Not something I worried about, but it seemed strange to see EGTs going the wrong way while descending. On final everything was well below limits, but I was wondering about the altitude compensating carbs and if they ever get out of whack or is this normal. I posted an inquiry for others experiences.* *Don Walker wrote:* *I dunno, just brainstorming with you. Looks like increased speed would increase cowl pressure to affect the mixture...and vice versa. Rate of descent may have something to do with it, too. I assume you are letting down at three to five hundred fpm? I am glad you are noting these things, Larry, Helps us all. Don* *Don, I spoke with technical support person at Bing and he said that on descent, sometimes cowl pressure under lowering throttle settings are still enough to lean out the mixture a bit and temps will go up. You were right. He also said that the enrichment (choke) cable could be pulled during the descent while rpms are reduced from 4500 rpm to 3500 rpm and the EGTs should return to normal. I'd have to try that on the next flight out.* *Hi guys,* *I called the Bing folks and was advised that rising EGTs during descent could be countered by using a little choke enrichment. Yesterdays flight proved that as we descended from 4000 feet at 500 fpm to 2500 ft. EGTs hit the set-point of 1450-degrees, and the warning light flashed, so I pulled just a little (choke) enrichment and the EGTs dropped to 1390-degrees F rather quickly and stayed under 1400-degrees the rest of the way. We had a 42-degree ambient temp and the rest of the temps were in the green. Anyway, it worked.* *Fly safe,* *Larry McFarland - 601HDS - Stratus at 85 hours - at www.macsmachine.com* ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:12 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hope I get the idea right, But what realy holds the propeller in place is the even and correct pressure of the propeller to the hub, not the bolts directly. if torqued correctly they will not fail. If they are loose the vibration from the engine (moving the propeller over the hub) will cut them, sooner or later, as a cold shisel (sp?) will not matter if they are 1" diameter AN bolts. or 1/4" diameter Grade 8. Some countries, and here some 20 years ago, where importing was a real problem: Time, money and paperwork and most time the parts were lost in Customs, but the bush pilots kept flying, Common sence and bench destroy testing, gave good and no good options to all of us. Yes, now with NAFTA we can get easy all AN parts we need realy soon , just pay shipping (courrier) and some "mild" paperwork most of the times... Saludos Gary Gower. "n801bh@netzero.com" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 bolts. It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right size, not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality bolts and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the best stuff for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was honest and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the whole debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better way to deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, wholesaler to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all the fraud to happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were charged and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far east where the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people who bought for the major manufacturers like Dorm! an, ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of the story never lives on like the rest of it does. do not archive --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:12 PM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain Whats the scoop on these Franklin engines? Who makes them? How long have they been around? Where are they made? Are they any good? Does anybody have one flying? Are they any relation to the old Franklin radial engines made many years ago? Don Mountain --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:28 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I'm presently using Castrol Syntech 5-50 oil on my Subaru powered CH601-HD. Now, I'd like to make longer flights and use avgas, but I learned that synthetic oil is no good with leaded gas. I'm wondering if anyone here flying a Subaru uses aviation oil on their automotive conversions. I'm thinking about the Shell 15w-40 semi-synthetic oil. Are there any other good alternatives for oil compatible with avgas? Michel do not archive ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:06 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair Michel I don't remember whether it was someone from LEAF or from Lockwood that told me, but I'm using Valvoline Durablend 10w-40 in my 912. It's a semi synthetic and from my limited understanding, it suspends the lead particles that would accumulate on the internal surfaces of the engine. I was told that it will work with mogas and avgas, bit if using avgas during any period the oil changes are then supposed to be on a more frequent basis. I would suspect that the Subaru is affected much the same as the Rotax. It has got my curiosity up and now I'm going to have to look back into the pro's and con's of the different types of oil. I do know that my original engine documentation listed several brands of oil, but when I tried to locate them (such as this one Shell designation that seemed to be the one for an occasional avgas usage), I was told that these types listed in the Rotax documentation were European blends only and not available in the US. That was when I started the phone calls to the experts. I believe I still have the answer somewhere, but am unable to locate it right now, so will now need to begin the questioning again. I did a search of the archives and didn't find a suitable answer there. It is also possible that a current answer may be in the Rotax service bulletins but haven't had a chance to peruse them again yet (but it is on my to do right away list). If anyone out there can point us in the right direction for this information, or have a definitive answer on oil types, it would be much appreciated. Mike Sinclair N701TD Back out of Phase I, and most certainly impressed with the performance of the 912uls as compared to the 80hp engine. It's like a whole new airplane! At gross it outperforms what it used to do with just me and minimum fuel. Though being a 701 it still don't go fast, just gets up there quicker. Michel Therrien wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > I'm presently using Castrol Syntech 5-50 oil on my > Subaru powered CH601-HD. Now, I'd like to make longer > flights and use avgas, but I learned that synthetic > oil is no good with leaded gas. > > I'm wondering if anyone here flying a Subaru uses > aviation oil on their automotive conversions. I'm > thinking about the Shell 15w-40 semi-synthetic oil. > Are there any other good alternatives for oil > compatible with avgas? > > Michel > ---------------------------- > Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ > http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby > http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:22 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: tragic accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Yes, is the same one, I think we all have to wait for the FAA (NTBS?) final report to posible know what happened, every other possiblity will only be wild thinking now. Saludos Gary Gower. Todd Osborne wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Todd Osborne" Isn't this the same accident we heard about right after it happened? Todd Osborne Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com Web Site: www.toddtown.com MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:34 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (long) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Got it, sorry Jerry... Just got a little lost :-) My personal experience of almost 15 years flying 80% of the weekends here using almost all the Rotax engines (447, 503, 618, 532, 582 and now 912S) also with the experience of all the ultralight pilots in our Club, and half of the country (as a Builder Adviser), never had or got refered a problem with the metric bolts that come with the engine or their replacements (Grade 8 or a AN European equivalent?) when used as propellers attachment. We also used almost all type and brand of propellers known, USA and Europe, Composite (adjustable) with alum center part, all wood, wood blades (adjustable) with alum center part., etc... We always torque and retorque as specified (Factory and Mantainance manuals). As I told early, torque is 99.99999 % of good service, all adjustables every 25 or 50 hours (at least once a year). Wooden every change of season (at last at the beguining of dry and also rain season). Normally Rotax bolts are installed in treaded hubs (tight and torqued) and they also use an extra nylon safety nut as "double tight" (sp?), instead of the safety wire. To retorque, we remove first the safety nylon nut, then retorque and reinstall a NEW safety nut. Safety wire ones, as normal procedure... I remember... Once did happened here a lost prop in flight, not because of the bolts, but was a funny (and safe) event: This pilot was the first and only Trike (weight shift) Pioneer and Instructor here at that time. We all (trike flyers) learned to fly with him... His old trike, well mantained, with already several new wings, but the same old Robin engine with a cog belt reduction, they had all the hours in the world (no hourmeter, no logs, good old times), that engine never missed a beat, always started at the 3rd hand pull (no starter or cord pull), primed in cold or with engine hot, always just 3 pulls and started... was amasing. One Saturday, we were all in the Clubs terrace, he landed with the engine stoped (he used to do it normally to practice engine out landings with his students). He walked to the group and with his characteristic calm voice asked: "Have you seen a propeller?" " I just lost it in flight". Imagine the face of all of us!!! "WHAT?" We all looked around and found it half our later... What happened was that the reduction and the hub were a single machined piece, fortunally had a safety shaft inside the reduction. The red/hub failed exactly in the middle and the prop just flew away backwards, when lost speed (and pressure to the engine over the shaft) he was flying over the club when happened so while gliding he had the chance to see the prop for several minutes until lost its sight... The reduction was rebuilt in my factory's lathe and two years later was "forced donated" to our Clubs Museum, where is waiting "restoration" :-) Saludos Gary Gower. JERICKSON03E@aol.com wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com In a message dated 3/6/2006 9:37:44 PM Central Standard Time, ggower_99@yahoo.com writes: No, not at all. What problem do you had? Saludos Gary Gower Gary, No problem as they are not yet installed. My question was sent to add the metric bolts to the subject, rather than to ignore them. Prop bolts are the ones we need to know about, and maintain often. Do you happen to know how the metric bolts fit into the grade 8/ AN/MS strength question? Regards, Jerry --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:52 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower We can think million of possibilities, but we have no facts in hand. Lets wait for the experts results, hope dont take too long. The ZAC airplanes are simple built and strong, not much chance for structural failure. Also always there is the chance of something missing in last assemble... (human factor), . But also will be unfair to blame the final assembler. Saludos Gary Gower. Do not archive Doug Sire wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Sire" I'm thinking some of the circumstances surrounding the flight seem a bit odd. -The NTSB report states that the aircraft was delivered on 12/15/05 and sat in a hanger until the day of the flight/accident. So, this was apparently the first flight by the new owner, and he had an instructor as PIC (how much did these two weigh?). He may not have had any familiarity with the aircraft. -It appeared to be a nice day; winds were only three knots with good visibility. -The flight only lasted 15 minutes. -Since they were approaching to land, their airspped was slow. So, it doesn't look like an accident that could have been caused by any severe aerodynamics stress on the airframe. I'm wondering how the owner took delivery. Were the wings removed and then the aircraft was shipped to the buyer? Maybe the wing spar bolts were not all replaced. Maybe they were removed for inspection and not replaced. Why didn't the airplane fly for about two months after delivery? If this was a first flight, you would think it would have lasted more than 15 minutes. Possibly the pilot felt that something didn't feel right (loose wings) after takeoff and was returning to check it out. It is also entirely possible that the eyewitness accounts got it wrong and it was just an approach to landing stall that was the result of a first flight unfamiliarity with the aircraft. Eyewitnesses can often be very unreliable. I doubt it will prove to be a reflection on the quality of the design. Doug Sire 601XL --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with