---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/08/06: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:30 AM - Re: Subaru oil and avgas. (Gary Gower) 2. 03:36 AM - Re: Stabilizer Skin (Larry Portouw) 3. 03:49 AM - Re: Tragic Accident (Bryan Martin) 4. 03:50 AM - Re: Subaru oil and avgas (Bryan Martin) 5. 05:51 AM - Re: Tragic Accident (Bill Howerton) 6. 06:10 AM - Re: Subaru oil and avgas (Dave Austin) 7. 06:32 AM - Re: Tragic Accident (n801bh@netzero.com) 8. 06:55 AM - Re: Subaru oil and avgas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (Larry) 10. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (Hildebrand, Eldo E) 11. 08:52 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 09:39 AM - Re: Subaru oil and avgas (Mike Sinclair) 13. 10:17 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 14. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts (Jari Kaija) 15. 12:14 PM - Report of Stol 701 on Czech Amphibious 1200 floats (4 wheel) (Tom and Joyce Schulke) 16. 01:05 PM - Re: Franklin Engines? (Bill+Rose) 17. 01:16 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Bill+Rose) 18. 01:59 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (LarryMcFarland) 19. 02:33 PM - Re: Which Swaging Tool? (Gig Giacona) 20. 03:13 PM - Franklin Engines (Ray Murphy) 21. 06:18 PM - Unstable Tach (Tim & Diane Shankland) 22. 08:01 PM - Re: Subaru oil and avgas (Michel Therrien) 23. 08:32 PM - Re: Unstable Tach (Thilo Kind) 24. 09:08 PM - Aileron Trim (john H) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:30 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower I dont know if the (your) Subaru reduction uses the same engine oil as the R 912. This is important, in the Rotax the oil has to do several main "jobs". One. libricate the engine, Two use the same oil to lubricate the reduction gears, Three, hold the lead in the avgas and take it to the filter. This is why they advise semisinthetic... Another good oil (the one we use here) is the oil used in the big Honda 4 cycle engined bikes: semisinthetic, heavy duty and works with engine and transmission. If your Subaru has a separate oil (SAE 90) for the reduction (or uses a cog belt for example), a good semi or full mineral automotive oil will work perfect with Avgas. Mineral (normal) oil "holds" the lead particles, just change it every 25 or 50 hours, depending on the hours flown over a year... low hours, sooner the change. Something I have heard, but not read in a serious surce yet, is that sinthetic oil is not a good heat tranfer oil... but not sure. Saludos Gary Gower. Mike Sinclair wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair Michel I don't remember whether it was someone from LEAF or from Lockwood that told me, but I'm using Valvoline Durablend 10w-40 in my 912. It's a semi synthetic and from my limited understanding, it suspends the lead particles that would accumulate on the internal surfaces of the engine. I was told that it will work with mogas and avgas, bit if using avgas during any period the oil changes are then supposed to be on a more frequent basis. I would suspect that the Subaru is affected much the same as the Rotax. It has got my curiosity up and now I'm going to have to look back into the pro's and con's of the different types of oil. I do know that my original engine documentation listed several brands of oil, but when I tried to locate them (such as this one Shell designation that seemed to be the one for an occasional avgas usage), I was told that these types listed in the Rotax documentation were European blends only and not available in the US. That was when I started the phone calls to the experts. I believe I still have the answer somewhere, but am unable to locate it right now, so will now need to begin the questioning again. I did a search of the archives and didn't find a suitable answer there. It is also possible that a current answer may be in the Rotax service bulletins but haven't had a chance to peruse them again yet (but it is on my to do right away list). If anyone out there can point us in the right direction for this information, or have a definitive answer on oil types, it would be much appreciated. Mike Sinclair N701TD Back out of Phase I, and most certainly impressed with the performance of the 912uls as compared to the 80hp engine. It's like a whole new airplane! At gross it outperforms what it used to do with just me and minimum fuel. Though being a 701 it still don't go fast, just gets up there quicker. Michel Therrien wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > I'm presently using Castrol Syntech 5-50 oil on my > Subaru powered CH601-HD. Now, I'd like to make longer > flights and use avgas, but I learned that synthetic > oil is no good with leaded gas. > > I'm wondering if anyone here flying a Subaru uses > aviation oil on their automotive conversions. I'm > thinking about the Shell 15w-40 semi-synthetic oil. > Are there any other good alternatives for oil > compatible with avgas? > > Michel > ---------------------------- > Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ > http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby > http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Stabilizer Skin From: "Larry Portouw" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Portouw" Al, you may not have done anything wrong. I'm working on a similar problem. Mine came up about 2.5mm short on the top side creating a serious edge distance problem at the spar. All the measurements checked out fine. In examining the end ribs I noted that the flanges in the area of the tip weren't fully 90 degrees. I was able to get skin back 2mm by removing the end ribs and carefully tightening up the flange (gentle tapping with a BP hammer and a large diamater piece of wood dowel as a backing) so that it bent over a full 90 deg. IOW, the rib was about 1mm longer tip to rear on the flange side than it was on the face side. Given that you get some distance back by doing this around the curve for a cm or so either side of the tip, it didn't take much to get the skin back where it needed to be. After reading your post, I'm going to take the frame off the table and see what I have on the back side before I start drilling holes! I also recommend engaging your friendly neighborhood EAA tech councilor. -- it's a technique that has kept me away from disaster or post disaster despair more than once. BATAR(at)aol.com wrote: > Help! I finished the stabilizer frame, and placed the skin on it, and found > it too short on the bottom side. > > > > Readfield, Maine -------- Larry Portouw 601XL Kit (H. Stab) Atlanta, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20306#20306 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:49:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin On the XL, the outer spar root ends fit in between the two vertical webs of the center spar and six bolts pass through the spar cap extrusions. There are no splice plates. There is one bolt holding the rear spar to the rear frame. I can't imagine how the wing could fold up at that joint unless bolts were left out. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. on 3/7/06 3:45 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at frank.hinde@hp.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > I assume the wing attach uses the tired and trusted spar slice plates > and single bolt at the rear spar. I do know some examples of the HD(S) > had problems with the rear attach cracking but I never heard of one > failing catastrophically. > > Definatly a weired one but I agree with you Doug I doubt it's a design > flaw but I do hope the results are made VERY public. > > Makes you think though, I am working on the RV7 and thought I had > tightened all the oil lines to the invert system....Nope they are still > finger tight as are the prop bolts. I could see how a critical fastener > could be missed. > > Frank > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin My Stratus manual suggests using Castrol 20W-50 non-synthetic oil. It also suggests that the oil change interval be cut in half if avgas is used. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. on 3/7/06 10:34 PM, Michel Therrien at mtherr@yahoo.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > > I'm presently using Castrol Syntech 5-50 oil on my > Subaru powered CH601-HD. Now, I'd like to make longer > flights and use avgas, but I learned that synthetic > oil is no good with leaded gas. > > I'm wondering if anyone here flying a Subaru uses > aviation oil on their automotive conversions. I'm > thinking about the Shell 15w-40 semi-synthetic oil. > Are there any other good alternatives for oil > compatible with avgas? > > Michel > do not archive > > > ---------------------------- > Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ > http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby > http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:31 AM PST US From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" Was out at the hangar the other night thinking about this one... My XL's wings are nearly complete, as is the fuselage, so I really looked inside the center spar/wing spar attachment point. It seems to me that it would be very difficult for this to be a situation where someone left out the spar bolts, or failed to tighten them. Even if the nuts had indeed come loose, the bolts would had to have worked their way out of their holes - something that seems unlikely to have occurred with a wing under load -- the load itself would have kept them inplace. But assuming that it did happen, or that the bolts were omitted entirely, for the wing to fold up, it would have to come out of the center spar enough to clear the bottom of the center spar cap. The only way this can happen is if the rear bolt also came out to allow the wing to move horizontally away from the fuselage. In other words it would pretty much require that the spar bolts be omitted AND that the rear bolt either failed, came loose or it too was omitted. While I guess it's possible someone could be that negligent, it seems unlikely that anyone could be that stupid. It seems to me the more likely scenario is that they experienced some kind of structural failure. Trying to fit the eye-witness accounts with the design, the only way I can see this occurring would have to have been a crack in the lower section of the spar itself that had been unnoticed during assembly, and manifested itself and grew when the wing was placed under load. If this happened the wing could indeed fold up, and the rear channel would simply rotate, with the rear bolt acting as a pivot point. This could be the result of corrosion, or perhaps from a scratch that went un-heeded. We know that the owner had recently taken delivery, but we don't know under what circumstances he came to own the plane, nor do we know how long or under what conditions that the wing sat before being assembled. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Martin To: Zenith List Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 4:46 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin On the XL, the outer spar root ends fit in between the two vertical webs of the center spar and six bolts pass through the spar cap extrusions. There are no splice plates. There is one bolt holding the rear spar to the rear frame. I can't imagine how the wing could fold up at that joint unless bolts were left out. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. on 3/7/06 3:45 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at frank.hinde@hp.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > I assume the wing attach uses the tired and trusted spar slice plates > and single bolt at the rear spar. I do know some examples of the HD(S) > had problems with the rear attach cracking but I never heard of one > failing catastrophically. > > Definatly a weired one but I agree with you Doug I doubt it's a design > flaw but I do hope the results are made VERY public. > > Makes you think though, I am working on the RV7 and thought I had > tightened all the oil lines to the invert system....Nope they are still > finger tight as are the prop bolts. I could see how a critical fastener > could be missed. > > Frank > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:59 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Mike, I use synthetic oil all the time in my 912. I've flown to Oshkosh and Florida using avgas 100LL after the initial tankfull was used with no noticeable sludge build-up. I did change the oil after those trips, but for the usual one fill with avgas and one with mogas I've had no trouble at all. Change oil once per year. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:17 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" There is the good chance they were out doing aerobatics and overstressed the plane, realized they did tweak something and were limping back to the airport before something major failed. I doubt they would have made a radio call stating to the effect of that senerio. All it would have taken was a turbulance bump down low where they are the strongest while decending into the pattern to land to have the wing fail completely. I will bet the NTSB will figure this thing out. Godspeed to those two guys.................................. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com There is the good chance they were out doing aerobatics and overstressed the plane, realized they didtweak something and were limping back to the airport before something major failed. I doubt they would have made a radio call stating to the effect of that senerio. All it would have taken was a turbulance bump down low where they are the strongestwhile decending into the pattern to land to have the wing fail completely. I will bet the NTSB will figure this thing out. Godspeed to those two guys.................................. do not archive BenHaas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:20 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Just use mineral oil. I use castrol 20-50 and it is just fine with Avgas. You might want to change your oil at say 30 hours with 100LL. I think there is a danger of spending more money on oil than the engine is worth. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Therrien Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I'm presently using Castrol Syntech 5-50 oil on my Subaru powered CH601-HD. Now, I'd like to make longer flights and use avgas, but I learned that synthetic oil is no good with leaded gas. I'm wondering if anyone here flying a Subaru uses aviation oil on their automotive conversions. I'm thinking about the Shell 15w-40 semi-synthetic oil. Are there any other good alternatives for oil compatible with avgas? Michel do not archive ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:04 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" Granted, grade 8s are not legal for certified, but we are not doing certified aircraft. I have seen several comments about grade 8 bolts being brittle. Well they are not, potato chips are brittle. Grade 8s have a strength of 2800 psi, AN ,2600 psi, grade 5, 2500 psi. That relates to the grade 8 being only around 7% harder than an AN bolt. Yesterday I took a 3/8" X 5" grade eight bolt, put it in a vise, took a larger hammer, bent it over to 45 degree angle, bent it back somewhat straight, bent it over again and back. No visible cracks, didn't break. Brittle is definitely not the right word. If I could go to any store around here and but AN bolts, I would. They are just not available unless you order them. Anyway, I think this horse has been beat to death. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "cgalley" Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > You are correct but since things don't always get the proper treatment, it > was interesting to find the bolt that lasted the longest was the less > brittle, tougher AN bolt which is legal for a prop. Class 8s are not legal > for certified. > > Cy Galley - Chair, > Air Emergency Aircraft Repair > A Service Project of Chapter 75 > EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC > EAA Sport Pilot > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:55 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" >> >> >> >> There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 >> bolts. >> It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right >> size, >> not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a >> combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six >> properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem. >> >> Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com >> >> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >> This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were >> some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality >> bolts >> and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first >> surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We >> strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the >> best stuff for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was >> honest and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the >> whole debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better >> way >> to deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, >> wholesaler to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all >> the >> fraud to happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were >> charged and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far >> east where the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people >> who bought for the major manufacturers like Dorm! >> an, ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor >> quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to >> have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as >> grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of >> the story never lives on like the rest of it does. >> >> do not archive >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 >> bolts. >> It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right >> size, >> not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a >> combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six >> properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem. >> >> Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com >> >> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >> >> >> >> >> This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were >> some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality >> bolts >> and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first >> surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We >> strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the >> best stuff for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was >> honest >> and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the whole >> debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better way to >> deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, wholesaler >> to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all the fraud to >> happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were charged >> and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far east where >> the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people who bought >> for the major manufacturers like Dorman! >> , ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor >> quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to >> have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as >> grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of >> the story never lives on like the rest of it does. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> do not archive >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:00 AM PST US From: "Hildebrand, Eldo E" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hildebrand, Eldo E" I've not being paying close attention to this lengthy exchange; however I couldn't let Larry's comment go without digging out my notes for Mechanics of Materials and one of many texts on my shelf (sorry my Aircraft Mechanics Handbook is at home). I've no idea what the grades you mention are intended to mean but if the strengths are correct, I wouldn't let them near an aircraft. A high strength AN6 bolt has a yield strength (start to fail) in shear of 10,500 lb (that translates to about 95,000lb/sq.in.). Ordinary structural steel (A36) that is often cast into concrete has a yield in tension (starts to fail) of 36,000lb/sq.in (thus the code A36) and ultimate strength (when it breaks) of 60,000lb/sq.in. Typical yield in shear (the way bolts are normally meant to be used) is about half that of the tensile strength.... the typical garden variety steel is therefore at best about 18,000 psi versus 95,000 psi for AN hardware. There are other issues of quality control of shoulder radius at the head, size tolerances etc. that mean AN bolts are are the ticket unless you know the expected stresses and the allowable strengths for the application and the hardware you wish to use. Bottom line... if the designer says this is where an AN bolt goes, I wouldn't want to chance anything less even if the hardware cost is a couple hundred more and I have to wait an extra day for FedEx! Quoting Larry : > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" > > Granted, grade 8s are not legal for certified, but we are not doing > certified aircraft. > I have seen several comments about grade 8 bolts being brittle. Well they > are not, potato chips are brittle. Grade 8s have a strength of 2800 psi, AN > ,2600 psi, grade 5, 2500 psi. That relates to the grade 8 being only > around 7% harder than an AN bolt. Yesterday I took a 3/8" X 5" grade eight > bolt, put it in a vise, took a larger hammer, bent it over to 45 degree > angle, bent it back somewhat straight, bent it over again and back. No > visible cracks, didn't break. Brittle is definitely not the right word. > If I could go to any store around here and but AN bolts, I would. They are > just not available unless you order them. > Anyway, I think this horse has been beat to death. > > Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com > > Eldo Hildebrand, PhD., P.Eng. Assistant Dean of Engineering University of New Brunswick P.O. Box 4400 Fredericton NB E3B 5A3 Phone 506 453 5112 Fax 506 453 3568 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:01 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I had another strange idea about the cause for this structure failure. I remember a post a few months ago about someone who bought a plane (parts?) and handed it over to his local auto paint shop where the rivets were all ground down flush with the skin to make it look better. That sort of treatment would explain the fact that both wings failed in sequence. None of the conjectures I have heard address the second wing folding. Do not archive Paul XL wings ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:28 AM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair Dave, and any others interested I did a search of the Rotax Service Instructions and did find oil info in SI-18-1997 R5 dated 9/2004. Listed in the sevice instruction was the Valvoline Durablend 10w-40 semi synthetic oil. It was one of two "Recommended for normal (lower than 120C/250F) and high temperature (higher than 120C/250F) operation using leaded or unleaded fuels". The other was the SHELL Formula Shell Synthetic Blend APISJ SAE 10w-30. Another oil listed that said "Highly Recommended" in the above quote was the SHELL Advance VSX4 in either 10w-40 or 15w-50. However I believe that was the blend available in Europe only. This 6 page document is available on www.rotax-owner.com and can be accessed by logging on as a guest user if so desired. It does include some good sense engine operation guidelines and mentions residue formation and cylinder glazing among other things concerning use of leaded fuel. It's a quick read and some decent info to file away in a mental compartment for future reference. Now I still can't say how this relates to the Subaru engine (or others), but suspect that a lot of the operation principals will be the same. Mike Sinclair Now if the wind here in Kansas would die down just a tad, even the jets flying over are in a crab. Would have a good ground speed going north though. Just not sure how long it would take to get back. Dave Austin wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" > > Mike, > I use synthetic oil all the time in my 912. I've flown to Oshkosh and > Florida using avgas 100LL after the initial tankfull was used with no > noticeable sludge build-up. I did change the oil after those trips, but for > the usual one fill with avgas and one with mogas I've had no trouble at all. > Change oil once per year. > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:24 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Paul, consider that both rear spars on the XL wings are attached with one bolt each (I think a 5/8 ? my plans are at the hanger so I'm unsure the size) When that bolt is removed and when holding the wing at the tip with all six main spar bolts torqued down, the wing is still very flexible. From the tip I can turn the whole wing an inch or so and the main spar is flexible enough to bend forward and rearward for adjustment. The lose of some skin might have caused such a colossal tragedy, but such a significant loss surely would have been observed. IE: " big pieces of wing skin fell off and fluttered down." Surely the witnesses would have picked up on something like that if it occurred that way. Further, someone offered that the plane had only recently been bought and sold and perhaps the wings had been removed and replaced for some reason (transport or inspection). Of course that is possibly the reason especially if the bolts where installed incorrectly or the wrong bolts were used ? Also, someone offered that the guys may have been performing acrobatics and bent something which caused the flight to end within 15 minutes and resulted in the crash on landing. I encourage all of us to not make such leaps without any evidence. Some NTSB wiz kid might read that and adopt it as their normal "pilot error" explanation. Bad business condemning another pilot without any evidence of misdeed, especially when the pilot(s) have gone on to the big FBO in the sky and can't respond. Yes, we can all wait for the NTSB fellows to "give" us their answer and I'm sure they will do the best they can, but it might be months before they resolve their issues and they might also get it wrong so in the meantime it is very healthy that we builders and drivers brain storm what could have been the reason two friends died, and how it happened, and what we could do to prevent or remedy the cause. FWIW, Bill of Georgia N505WP ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:57 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Grades of Nuts & Bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" > I've no idea what the grades you mention are intended to mean but if the strengths are > correct, I wouldn't let them near an aircraft. A high strength AN6 bolt has a yield Ok, it's time to end this "I think" thread... http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Default.aspx#material ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:17 PM PST US From: "Tom and Joyce Schulke" Subject: Zenith-List: Report of Stol 701 on Czech Amphibious 1200 floats (4 wheel) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tom and Joyce Schulke" With over 50 hours on my Stol 701SP on the floats (over 100 total) I feel I can report on the combination of 701 and the 4 wheel amphibs. My 701 has a Rotax 912uls , warp drive prop, with a carb air box, (Sky Shops FFW conversion kit with new style cowling) faired wing struts and Sky Shops electric flaperon kit. Every thing else is stock. The floats are the A-1200 Czechs. The mods to the floats that I did include a http://www.flyingsafer.com/ gear position warning system, stainless steel wheel bearings and a wider horn on the rudder for great water rudder response. One other modification that was applied at 25 hours on floats was a aluminum cover for the area that the landing gear went under the fuselage. This I feel is a must...I gained a lot of climb. This area was like a speed brake at some climb attitudes.I also have a Avid Magnum (160 hp) on Aqua 1500 floats (500+ hours) in Wisconsin, the 701 is my Florida aircraft. The install of the floats was not to hard and the instructions were good. The photo CD was very helpful for me. Support from Sky Shops was excellent. The weight on wheels was 586 lbs on floats about 740lbs. Not bad ...I raised my gross [on floats only] to 1240 lbs. This still gives me a good useful load. The take off with me (220lbs) and full fuel (120lbs) on a 70 degree day is very quick. Add the second person to gross and the takeoff seems to double but still beats most of the aircraft on our airstrip off the runway. I use about 13 to 15 degrees of flaps for takeoff. 10 to full for landing. Comparisons:My friend Jim has a Rans S-7 on Czech 1150 x 4 Amphibs . He has the 912S with the warp drive. With full fuel and pilot (we weigh about the same) we take off in about the same distance (land and water) and climb is similar. With a passenger he has a small edge in all operations and can easily out climb me. The BIG difference is cruse. 701 85 mph Rans S-7 100 mph. (GPS) I could get a bit more cruse with a constant speed prop or repitching the warp drive. But I'm trying to compare apples to apples. The Rans has a glide. The 701....well let's just say we never have to slip! That said ...I love my 701 and fly it most of the time low and slow. It's great for checking on "gators" and wild pigs! The flight over to Cedar Key at 100 or so feet over the Gulf is a blast. There are NOT a lot of amphibious aircraft that will outperform the Stol 701.....But there are some. When I fly with Jim in the Rans I throttle up and he throttles back. (He loves the fuel savings!!!!) I tell everyone that if you look up the word "drag" in the dictionary you'll see a picture of the 701! Landings are short in both aircraft. Water handling is great. I had a problem getting the 701 in my hanger as the door is 9' 2" high....the tail a few inches higher. My choices were a new hydraulic door for $7,000 or a lift for the spreader bar for about $100 bucks. Yep ...I went for the spreader bar lift! These are my opinions and observations in my 701 "The Odd Duck" . Every 701 is a little different as is performance. The money that I have in the whole setup is less than a new set of Wipline floats for a Supercub or Husky and it's just as fun. I'll try to answer any other questions anyone has. And a big thanks for help I received on the Zenith List. Tom Schulke STOL 701 SP Rotax 912ULS ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:16 PM PST US From: "Bill+Rose" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill+Rose" Franklins are made in Poland from the original drawings. They've been around about as long as Continental or Lycoming. Don't know if they're related to the radials. The Polish do good work, but there's more data available for the Jabiru, at about the same price. Already looked into them- factor in cowl and mount availability. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Mountain" Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 10:02 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > > Whats the scoop on these Franklin engines? Who makes them? How long have > they been around? Where are they made? Are they any good? Does anybody > have one flying? Are they any relation to the old Franklin radial engines > made many years ago? > > Don Mountain > > > --------------------------------- > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:55 PM PST US From: "Bill+Rose" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill+Rose" ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 1:13 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com > All- For peace of mind, think back to the picture you've seen with 40 people sitting on a wing without failure. Why doesn't someone find out what sort of load test Zenith recommends, so we can perform it? I'm so busy I can barely check my e-mails a couple of times a month- how about one of you "Blissfully retired" folk? Bill > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:13 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Bill+Rose wrote: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com >> >All- > For peace of mind, think back to the picture you've seen with 40 people >sitting on a wing without failure. Why doesn't someone find out what sort of >load test Zenith recommends, so we can perform it? I'm so busy I can barely >check my e-mails a couple of times a month- how about one of you "Blissfully >retired" folk? > Bill > > Concerned as well but, I'd not recommend speculation on anything until facts are in. It's got to be something as simple as an incorrectly fastened or fabricated spar. The people investigating will be able to easily see what gave it up in the first place. Incorrect assembly will differentiate itself from outright failure as strongly as a fatigued part or incorrect material, bolts etc. The people that do these investigations are better at it than we are and are seeing a lot more of it these days. I'd predict it's not going to be as hard as it sounds, but will take a little more time. From the perspective of one that's blissfully retired going on 3 years now. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Which Swaging Tool? From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I found one identical to the one listed on eBay today at my local tool store for $42. It's out in the trunk of my truck as we speak. Thanks all. -------- W.R. Gig Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20440#20440 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:39 PM PST US From: "Ray Murphy" Subject: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ray Murphy" My Stinson 108-3 had a Franklin Engine. It was a 6 cyl. and 165 hp. Without a doubt, it was the smoothest piston engine I've ever flown behind. Ray Murphy Bandon, OR 601 XL wannabe ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:33 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland I remember this being discussed in the past but I have not been able to locate anything with the search engine. I have a Status Suburu and a VDO tach. Above 3000 RPM's the tach become unstable, jumping 1000 RPM's or more at a time. I have tried some filtering on the line with no success. When I switch the tach to the secondary ignition it is stable. I was hoping someone had solved this before, so I have to cart my Tectronics scope out to the shop and try to track this down. Tim Shankland ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:59 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Subaru oil and avgas --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Thanks all for the great information! do not archive ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:39 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Tim, I had a similar experience with my Micro Tach 100 on a Rotax 912. Finally installed a resitor in the sensing wire - problem solved. I'm not home right now, but I think it was 47 K. Good luck Thilo Kind> --- Ursprngliche Nachricht --- > Von: Tim & Diane Shankland > An: Zenith List > Betreff: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach > Datum: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 21:11:29 -0500 > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland > > I remember this being discussed in the past but I have not been able to > locate anything with the search engine. I have a Status Suburu and a VDO > tach. Above 3000 RPM's the tach become unstable, jumping 1000 RPM's or > more at a time. I have tried some filtering on the line with no success. > When I switch the tach to the secondary ignition it is stable. I was > hoping someone had solved this before, so I have to cart my Tectronics > scope out to the shop and try to track this down. > > Tim Shankland > > > > > > > > > > > > -- "Feel free" mit GMX FreeMail! Monat fr Monat 10 FreeSMS inklusive! http://www.gmx.net ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:36 PM PST US From: "john H" Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron Trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H" Hi List I am going to retrofit my 601HHD with an aileron trim to balance out my heavy left wing when flying solo. Does anyone have drawings as how to do this? I will be using the RAC servo with external trim tab. Was wondering how far back from the trailing edge to mount the servo? Left or right wing preference? Size of the trim tab and any other helpful info and drawings. Thanks John