Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:10 AM - Re: Drilling plastic lens ()
2. 03:33 AM - Re: Stabilizer Skin (Larry Portouw)
3. 03:33 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Jim Pellien)
4. 05:05 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (steveadams)
5. 05:12 AM - Re: Crimping tool (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
6. 06:31 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 36 Msgs - 03/09/06 (Grant Corriveau)
7. 06:32 AM - Re: Crimping tool (Jim Hoak)
8. 06:38 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Don Walker)
9. 07:05 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Jim Hoak)
10. 07:09 AM - Re: Crimping tool ()
11. 07:20 AM - Re: Unstable Tach (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
12. 07:54 AM - Re: Drilling plastic lens (Bob Unternaehrer)
13. 08:50 AM - Re: Crimping tool (N5SL)
14. 09:14 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (JAPhillipsGA@AOL.COM)
15. 09:43 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
16. 09:53 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Mike)
17. 09:53 AM - Re: Crimping tool. (Gary Gower)
18. 10:20 AM - Re: The Pilot is the most important safety part. in the airplane. (Gary Gower)
19. 10:28 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Jari Kaija)
20. 10:34 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (crvsecretary@aol.com)
21. 10:35 AM - Drilling the plastic (Blueraven)
22. 10:43 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 36 Msgs - 03/09/06 (Blueraven)
23. 10:52 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Craig Moore)
24. 11:00 AM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Jari Kaija)
25. 12:24 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Frank Stutzman)
26. 12:37 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Gig Giacona)
27. 12:48 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
28. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
29. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 36 Msgs - 03/09/06 (Bryan Martin)
30. 01:25 PM - Trajic accident (Rick Tedford)
31. 01:35 PM - Re: Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (John Marzulli)
32. 02:16 PM - Re: Trajic accident (Gary Gower)
33. 02:35 PM - Posting entire list (Blueraven)
34. 02:54 PM - Re: Posting entire list (Bryan Martin)
35. 03:07 PM - Re: Degaus (John Anderson)
36. 04:11 PM - Tragic accident (Rick Tedford)
37. 05:19 PM - Re: Unstable Tach (Tim & Diane Shankland)
38. 06:32 PM - Re: Unstable UMA Tach (ron dewees)
39. 06:55 PM - Re: Degaus (Tommy Walker)
40. 09:29 PM - New DVD: Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft (Jon Croke)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Drilling plastic lens |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <Craig.Spainhower@exeloncorp.com>
Amen Cy, I also drilled all the holes for my canopy using a Unibit. Works great
and it's fast.
Craig S.
N601XS, 601xl lyc 0-235 wiring and FWF left.
>Use a Unibit! Works great. No grab.
>Cy Galley
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Skin |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Portouw" <Larry@portouw.com>
Chuck, thanks. I am working off of rev 2.0, older than the ones you reference.
I'll hit the web site and get the newer one. Probably too late to change what
I've done now-- end ribs are drilled, but not riveted. Could always replace
them, but I think I have it solved with this method.
--------
Larry Portouw
601XL Kit (H. Stab)
Atlanta, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20770#20770
Message 3
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| Subject: | Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
The problem with "armchair conjecture" is that we do not have the data to
make any sort of reasonable analysis. NTSB has the data, the photos, the
up-close visual inspection etc. I suspect that this is why we have not
heard from the Zenith Aircraft folks. They probably do not have the data
either.
We all will just have to be patient. One thing that I will say is that we
have an airframe that has proven its structural integrity for over 20
years....hundreds are flying around the world and have flown safely for
probably over a million flight hours. I know of no other in-flight
structural failure on any 601.
Patience is the word.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>From a XL assembler and driver who takes his best friends up, his Wife and
Son up and Grandson up, that flew 2.3 hours last Saturday and will probably
exceed that this week end, yes the wings crumpling up on a XL and killing a
couple
fellows really concerns me and the fact that no one has much to offer as
answers concerns me as well. This list should be for more than for beating
which
dammed scotch bright pad to use to death or how many fuel pumps between the
tanks, in the wing root, behind the firewall and in front of the firewall
equals
a vapor lock ! Some of you guys are engineers and airplane designers. Frank
has 10,000 hours on every plane there is and some of you all even more. Get
in
here and give us XL'ers your best shot. Screw waiting for some egg head from
the NTSB. I want to fly this weekend. Who has some ideas that we who are
actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend ?
Anybody
care to speculate what failed and what we could be looking at while NTSB
takes
another coffee break and delivers their "guess" six months from now. Yes,
I'm
in a piss mood, 72 hours without tobacco and an airplane that the wings may
fall off. Do Not Archive.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
If this was a new design I would be worried, but the 601 and CH have a long track
record of safe design. So if you rule out a design flaw leading to failure,
in my mind it has to be one of three things. One, faulty construction. Two, faulty
maintenence (ie - attachment bolts loose, missing or improper hardware,
corrosion etc). Three, the wing had been over stressed at some point either during
this flight or previous flights. I guess the forth possibility is a defective
critical part, but if the proper hardware was used and parts were closely
inspected during construction, this is unlikely. Any of them are tragic, but
likely unique to this particular aircraft. If your airplane was built to plan
specs using the called out hardware, you maintain it well, and you fly within
the design limitations, I doubt anyone has to be worried about flying their 601.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20780#20780
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Crimping tool |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
I made a crimping tool from an old linemans pliers. It worked well
but.....the "T" shaped tool that comes with the kit works best for me. It's simple
and
gives a lot more "control"...particularly if you want to add a little more
"crimp"...but only one one side. When you start "fine tuning" your ribs, this
can be a real advantage.
Dave
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 36 Msgs - 03/09/06 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>... Who has some ideas that we who are
> actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend ?
I appreciate your stress, but I humbly submit that the best thing you or I
or anyone can do is to ensure that the part that rests in our hands is done
properly:
- Did I the builder follow the plans and use good building practices?
- Have I the 'maintenance guy' been following good mtce. procedures?
- Have I the pilot, maintained my own competency and health standards?
- Did I the pilot do the proper pre-flight inspection?
- Am I the pilot following good flying practices within the design specs of
the airplane?
IF all responses = YES, go fly and enjoy.
In any CH601 version, chances of an accident happening due to reasons not
covered by these items are minimal. imo
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Crimping tool |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" <planejim@bellsouth.net>
Buy one for less than $20 from one of the tool companys, such as Avery
Tools.
do not archive
Jim Hoak
----- Original Message -----
From: <LHusky@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 12:10 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Crimping tool
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LHusky@aol.com
>
>
> I was just wondering if anyone out there has invented a handy tool to do
> the
> crimps. I am building a 601XL from plans and I have started the ribs for
> the rudder. I know there is something out there. Any information would
> be
> great.
>
> Larry Husky
> 601XL
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" <d3dw@msn.com>
Okay, Here goes. I will give you an analysis of the deadliest scenario one may
encounter.
"Screw waiting for some egg head from the NTSB. I want to fly this weekend.
Who has some ideas that we who are
actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend."
Literally, this attitude is the one which kills more pilots than any other. It
is the attitude of "wanting what I want right now" and reducing the experts
to "eggheads". I would suggest that mature deliberation regarding the flightworthiness
of your own aircraft is the guiding factor. If one does not have that
knowledge in examining his aircraft even after going through the building process,
perhaps he is an egghead.
As for this weekend, your plane is as safe as it has been, but the attitude expressed
above may get you in trouble. That attitude expressed during the building
process has also killed a few folks. So "screw" your head on straight, and
go fly.
Don Walker HDS, TD 385 hrs do not archive
----Screw waiting for some egg head from
the NTSB. I want to fly this weekend. Who has some ideas that we who are
actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend ?
- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pellien<mailto:jim@pellien.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 5:32 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com<mailto:jim@pellien.com>>
The problem with "armchair conjecture" is that we do not have the data to
make any sort of reasonable analysis. NTSB has the data, the photos, the
up-close visual inspection etc. I suspect that this is why we have not
heard from the Zenith Aircraft folks. They probably do not have the data
either.
We all will just have to be patient. One thing that I will say is that we
have an airframe that has proven its structural integrity for over 20
years....hundreds are flying around the world and have flown safely for
probably over a million flight hours. I know of no other in-flight
structural failure on any 601.
Patience is the word.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
www.MASPL.com<http://www.maspl.com/>
703-313-4818
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JAPhillipsGA@aol.com<mailto:JAPhillipsGA@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 11:34 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com<mailto:JAPhillipsGA@aol.com>
>From a XL assembler and driver who takes his best friends up, his Wife and
Son up and Grandson up, that flew 2.3 hours last Saturday and will probably
exceed that this week end, yes the wings crumpling up on a XL and killing a
couple
fellows really concerns me and the fact that no one has much to offer as
answers concerns me as well. This list should be for more than for beating
which
dammed scotch bright pad to use to death or how many fuel pumps between the
tanks, in the wing root, behind the firewall and in front of the firewall
equals
a vapor lock ! Some of you guys are engineers and airplane designers. Frank
has 10,000 hours on every plane there is and some of you all even more. Get
in
here and give us XL'ers your best shot. Screw waiting for some egg head from
the NTSB. I want to fly this weekend. Who has some ideas that we who are
actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend ?
Anybody
care to speculate what failed and what we could be looking at while NTSB
takes
another coffee break and delivers their "guess" six months from now. Yes,
I'm
in a piss mood, 72 hours without tobacco and an airplane that the wings may
fall off. Do Not Archive.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" <planejim@bellsouth.net>
List,
Working with designer Wayne Ison back in the late 1970s I designed and built
the one and only all metal PDQ ( an Ison design). The original was wood and
fabric. We did the static load test using the Sandbag method. I used a
publication from EAA that described the whole process. I don't know if that
pamphlet is still available. The predicted wing deflection at each G (we
tested up to 3 Gs) and the premanant set came out exactly as predicted. The
process of placement of the sandbags was also prescribed. Of course we did
not test to destruction. Neither my helper nor I are engineers. We're A&P
mechs.
Now for the final results. The airplane came to the ground unplanned because
of an engine problem caused my ME!
The wings took a beating after taking a 6" dia. branch off of an oak tree
( the same ones we tested) but otherwise held up fine. That's a heck of a
way to do the ultimate test. Never rebuilt it either!
The whole process of design, build and test was very enjoyable and
rewarding. However, as for these Zenith aircraft we fly, I have talked with
Chris many times ( I visit with him at SunNFun amd AirVenture every year)
and am satisfied he does all the testing necessary to produde safe aircraft.
I take many friends and family up in my 601HD and feel fine about it.
I don't think we need to do those static load tests on Zenith aircraft.
Those of you in countries which make you do this on proven designs (as
opposed to one of a kind original design) a fighting bureaucrats justifying
their jobs. Not proving a thing!
Jim Hoak 601HD 502hrs 9 years flying
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Sinclair" <mike.sinclair@ATT.NET>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
> Thilo
>
> Appreciate the response. And I do have a definite appreciation about
> testing a
> large aircraft wing to ultimate load. I watched the test videos of taking
> the
> Boeing 777 wing to failure. I don't remember the total flex at the tip,
> but when
> the wing let go it was explosive! I am curious about the process of
> testing all
> experimental aircraft for design load in the other countries though and
> have a
> couple of questions about this process. Are there standards for placement
> of the
> sand bags to distribute the load over the whole wing and for how the
> structure
> is secured before the test? Are there varying standards for the different
> designs? Do the designers have any input on this testing, and if not, how
> are
> testing standards dictated? How thoroughly is the post load tested wing
> inspected? And what would concern me here is that inspecting a completed
> wing
> after the test would be very difficult in most cases as the wing has been
> closed
> up, and some internal failures could go undetected. Is there then any
> required
> x-ray or other inspection required to ensure that the wing is really safe.
> And
> finally, does any of the designers testing of structural strength to
> ultimate
> failure get considered. I'm sure that I have seen pictures somewhere of a
> Zenith
> wing being tested by a very heavy looking load of sandbags. Can't say what
> aircraft the wing was off off, but would have a concern that someone could
> get a
> little overzealous on loading sandbags and cause some damage, that
> undetected,
> could have very serious consequences. For myself, I guess I'm pretty much
> stuck
> with taking Zeniths word on the design limits of the airplane, and then
> just
> making sure that I get nowhere near those limits, but do get a little
> nervous
> when a bureaucracy run by some that know little, but have the need to feel
> important, gets involved. Guess that was more than a couple of questions,
> but
> when you get started it is kind of hard to stop sometimes. Bet that if I
> took a
> little longer I could come up with a few more. Still waiting for the wind
> to die
> down a bit so I can go get in some more air time!
>
> Mike
>
> Thilo Kind wrote:
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind@gmx.net>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> static testing does not need to be destructive. In many countries static
>> testing up to the design load is required by the authorities for
>> experimentals. For that, the wing is turned up side down and mounted to a
>> jig (or you might also turn the whole plane upside down). Next, the wing
>> is
>> then loaded with sandbags up to the designed wing loads. In a 601 HDs,
>> that
>> would be 6 g or 3 times gross weight per wing.
>>
>> Destructive testing is required, if you want to know the ultimate load.
>> Airbus just did it with a wing from their new A 380. I don't know the
>> load,
>> but they bend the wing tip 7 m (21") before breaking it.
>>
>> Happy building / flying
>>
>> Thilo Kind
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Crimping tool |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Buy the crimping (fluting) pliers from Aircraft Spruce.
Ed Moody II
>
> From: LHusky@aol.com
> Date: 2006/03/10 Fri AM 12:10:36 EST
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Crimping tool
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LHusky@aol.com
>
>
> I was just wondering if anyone out there has invented a handy tool to do the
> crimps. I am building a 601XL from plans and I have started the ribs for
> the rudder. I know there is something out there. Any information would be
> great.
>
> Larry Husky
> 601XL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
The good thing is there aren't many things it can be. You know it is not
the tach, so it has to be something to do with an ignition component.
Just a thought Tim, are you using a changeover switch between one
ignition system and the other?
If you have you do realise you have just connected the ignitions
together. It is not impossible for that switch to short to ground and it
could ground out both your ingitons and stop you engine running.
Likely?...No, but it is generally not a good idea to rely on a single
component in a critical application.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim & Diane
Shankland
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland
--> <tshank@core.com>
Thanks for the suggestions, I all ready have tried resistors, either no
effect or no tach, I'll check the coil although the engine only has
about 6 hours on it and I haven't flown it yet. And I will check for
inductive coupling and maybe swap the coils.
Tim Shankland
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Drilling plastic lens |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Here are three methods that have worked for me.
1 Buy bits made for drilling Plexiglas
2. Use any standard bit, BUT.. sharpen it BACKWARDS. This means grind the
"rake" backwards. Normally a bit is ground with the cutting edge "higher"
than the relieved, trailing edge. Grind it backwards by making the "cutting
edge", lower than the trailing edge. The bit has to "burn" it's way thru
the Plexiglas, rather than "cut" it's way thru.
3. Run a drill backwards?
Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:11 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> I am getting ready to drill some 3/16" diameter holes through the plastic
lens for the headlights on my 601 XL. What should I use? I have tried
drilling holes in plastic before and had normal bits with a tip angle of 118
degrees grab and split the plastic. Is there a better solution?
>
> Don Mountain
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Crimping tool |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
I didn't invent it, but I built one three years ago
with vice grips and 1/4" steel dowels from Home Depot.
Here's a photo:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Fluting.jpg
I dipped the end in a can of Plasticote here:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Plasticote.JPG
I have made 36 601XL wing ribs, one instrument panel,
three bulkheads, two landing light filler riblets and
a steel firewall with these pliers. They could use
another dip in plasticote, but are otherwise perfect.
The only thing you should watch out for if you use
vice grips is the clamping force. I had to be careful
not to turn the set screw too much or it would clamp
down and crack .025" aluminum. This only happened
once and it was on a test piece thank goodness.
I used a cheap wire-feed welder and it was quick and
easy.
Good luck,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
Returning Engine to Service
--- LHusky@aol.com wrote:
> I was just wondering if anyone out there has
> invented a handy tool to do the
> crimps.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Mark, thanks, but speculation can be healthy. Remember, we all want the "e"
in experimental to be a small "e". If NASA did a little more speculation and
grasping we might have a couple more space shuttles parked around Florida.
This body of builders has a boundless collective knowledge and experience. We
should encourage the thought process. If you follow the NTSB reports you will
note very quickly that many, many accidents have no definitive resolution. I have
read hundreds of accident reports that NTSB offered no reason. We assemblers
of XLs need to be proactive in an effort to determine what would cause such an
event and self inspect. The prudent pilot and assembler would be remiss not
to try. Best to you, Bill of Georgia
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Don, this is not about me, this is about figuring out what could cause one
then another wing on a XL to fold up and turn perpendicular to the fuselage of
an established flying aircraft as it is in the pattern to land. If you are an
NTSB employee and I hurt your feelings go find the folks working the issue and
tell them to get busy and provide the resolution we are paying for.
Bill
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> NTSB offered no reason. We assemblers of XLs need to be
> proactive in an effort to determine what would cause such an
> event and self inspect.
I couldn't agree more. While the NTSB guys probably know what they're doing, their
reports usually leave a lot to be desired. And normally, the cause or contributing
cause is some government mumbo jumbo like "a factor was pilot's failure
to avoid contact with the ground" or something equally obvious. So, there's
no harm in self-inspecting -- although endless debates on wing loading for a
design that has been around for years probably won't result in anything productive.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
do not archive
---------------------------------
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Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: Crimping tool. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
We build our crimping plier using one of the Cleco pliers (we had 4 and used only
2 or 3 at the same time) was easy. Larry (my brother) welded 3 little pieces
of rod (I think 1/8" diam) to the pliers, one in the center two in the
sides. works perfect.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
LHusky@aol.com wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LHusky@aol.com
Thanks for all the replies. I have seen the tool Zenith either sells or
wants you to build. I know someone with that tool, but I would like something
more in the line of a pair of pliers. There are a lot of crimps coming up and
I know there is something out there that will work. I see in the tools
section of 601.org, there is a nice pair of needle nose pliers with 3 pieces of
rod. Looks like it would work great, but there is no specific's on what size
rod to use etc.
I did find a tool that looks like it would do the job on Aircraft Spruce.
The part number is
12-00500. If you guys that have already built your ribs, could go and look
at this tool and tell me if you think it would work, I would appreciate it.
Most of my parts are CNC'd and are wonderful, so I want to do this right.
Let me know what you think and I am open to any suggestions.
Larry
---------------------------------
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: The Pilot is the most important safety part. in the |
airplane.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hello all of my friends listers,
There is a important chapter, I dont have the book with me now but is near the
end of the book: Stick and Rudder, yes, "The Book" .
This book and now this chapter that talks about the dangers of flying has to
be read by all of us.
Probably not related with this accident, but very important to take note about
what the REAL dangers of flying are.
Please read it will help all of us be better pilots. (Newbies like me and real
experts...)
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
Don Walker <d3dw@msn.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker"
Okay, Here goes. I will give you an analysis of the deadliest scenario one may
encounter.
"Screw waiting for some egg head from the NTSB. I want to fly this weekend.
Who has some ideas that we who are
actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend."
Literally, this attitude is the one which kills more pilots than any other. It
is the attitude of "wanting what I want right now" and reducing the experts to
"eggheads". I would suggest that mature deliberation regarding the flightworthiness
of your own aircraft is the guiding factor. If one does not have that knowledge
in examining his aircraft even after going through the building process,
perhaps he is an egghead.
As for this weekend, your plane is as safe as it has been, but the attitude expressed
above may get you in trouble. That attitude expressed during the building
process has also killed a few folks. So "screw" your head on straight, and
go fly.
Don Walker HDS, TD 385 hrs do not archive
----Screw waiting for some egg head from
the NTSB. I want to fly this weekend. Who has some ideas that we who are
actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend ?
- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pellien
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 5:32 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" >
The problem with "armchair conjecture" is that we do not have the data to
make any sort of reasonable analysis. NTSB has the data, the photos, the
up-close visual inspection etc. I suspect that this is why we have not
heard from the Zenith Aircraft folks. They probably do not have the data
either.
We all will just have to be patient. One thing that I will say is that we
have an airframe that has proven its structural integrity for over 20
years....hundreds are flying around the world and have flown safely for
probably over a million flight hours. I know of no other in-flight
structural failure on any 601.
Patience is the word.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>From a XL assembler and driver who takes his best friends up, his Wife and
Son up and Grandson up, that flew 2.3 hours last Saturday and will probably
exceed that this week end, yes the wings crumpling up on a XL and killing a
couple
fellows really concerns me and the fact that no one has much to offer as
answers concerns me as well. This list should be for more than for beating
which
dammed scotch bright pad to use to death or how many fuel pumps between the
tanks, in the wing root, behind the firewall and in front of the firewall
equals
a vapor lock ! Some of you guys are engineers and airplane designers. Frank
has 10,000 hours on every plane there is and some of you all even more. Get
in
here and give us XL'ers your best shot. Screw waiting for some egg head from
the NTSB. I want to fly this weekend. Who has some ideas that we who are
actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend ?
Anybody
care to speculate what failed and what we could be looking at while NTSB
takes
another coffee break and delivers their "guess" six months from now. Yes,
I'm
in a piss mood, 72 hours without tobacco and an airplane that the wings may
fall off. Do Not Archive.
---------------------------------
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
> Few builders would know what to do with static testing if they were
> furnished and required as in Finland
Hmmm... in here, Finland, we do not need to do static tests at all
to planes, what has tested already in other (approved) countries.
IF we are going to build totally new plane model or we are going
to make some welds to structural parts, we have two way to prove
structures.
Ie. with welded parts we can use static test without breaking parts
(using only forces, what plane should handle already) and we can
make several demonstration welds and prove with them, that person
is capable to do whatever he is doing. We can also use penetration
chemicals to prove satisfactory welds.
All building process are monitored by personal, CAA approved
supervisor, who take cares, that builder won't make any mistakes
AND do not try to go there, where the fence is lower...
damn! I really need more practise with english. I hope, this msg
was readable :-)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: crvsecretary@aol.com
Jari:
Your english is just fine and VERY understandable. Please continue to add your
thoughts and perspective from your fine country on this list.
Regards,
Tracy Smith
601XL N458XL (reserved)
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Jari Kaija <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
Sent: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:25:50 +0200
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
> Few builders would know what to do with static testing if they were
> furnished and required as in Finland
Hmmm... in here, Finland, we do not need to do static tests at all
to planes, what has tested already in other (approved) countries.
IF we are going to build totally new plane model or we are going
to make some welds to structural parts, we have two way to prove
structures.
Ie. with welded parts we can use static test without breaking parts
(using only forces, what plane should handle already) and we can
make several demonstration welds and prove with them, that person
is capable to do whatever he is doing. We can also use penetration
chemicals to prove satisfactory welds.
All building process are monitored by personal, CAA approved
supervisor, who take cares, that builder won't make any mistakes
AND do not try to go there, where the fence is lower...
damn! I really need more practise with english. I hope, this msg
was readable :-)
Message 21
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| Subject: | Drilling the plastic |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Blueraven <bluedog@ak.net>
Herer's a link for tips.
http://www.lpaero.com/DRILTRIM.html
You dont need to buy anything. Take you bit and see where it slopes down
from tht tip. the cutting edge ITSELF is also sloped.
Take a file and remove that edge slope and make it Parallel to the main,
longititudinal, body of the bit. Use low pressure.
Oh and now you gotta segregate your bits for soft metalsand plastics and
hard metals as you make them.
Hope that helps.
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 36 Msgs - 03/09/06 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Blueraven <bluedog@ak.net>
I'm new to the list but was wondering..
Why dont he advertizer's on this list set up a page where they can put
there info and links rather than trying to hawk there wares when the
people are trying to get answers to their questions.
that wld save time for everyone..
BR
==========
Zenith-List Digest Server wrote:
>*
>
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
>Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
>HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2006-03-09.html
>
>Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2006-03-09.txt
>
>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
> Zenith-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 03/09/06: 36
>
>
>Today's Message Index:
>----------------------
>
> 1. 05:01 AM - Re: Tach problem (Zed Smith)
> 2. 05:01 AM - Re: Aileron Trim (Michel Therrien)
> 3. 06:58 AM - Re: Unstable Tach (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
> 4. 08:11 AM - Re: Franklin Engines? (shilocom@mcmsys.com)
> 5. 08:48 AM - Re: Stabilizer Skin (Chuck & Lana Maggart)
> 6. 10:21 AM - Re: Franklin Engines (John Anderson)
> 7. 11:14 AM - Drilling plastic lens (Don Mountain)
> 8. 11:22 AM - Re: Franklin Engines (Don Mountain)
> 9. 11:30 AM - Re: Drilling plastic lens (BrownTool@aol.com)
> 10. 11:35 AM - Re: Drilling plastic lens (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
> 11. 12:04 PM - Re: Drilling plastic lens (Robert Schoenberger)
> 12. 12:47 PM - Re: Drilling plastic lens (Randy L. Thwing)
> 13. 01:44 PM - Re: Drilling plastic lens (cgalley)
> 14. 01:48 PM - Re: Drilling plastic lens ()
> 15. 01:57 PM - Re: Drilling plastic lens (Geoff Heap)
> 16. 03:23 PM - Insurance (Chuck Deiterich)
> 17. 04:19 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Bill+Rose)
> 18. 04:19 PM - Re: Franklin Engines? (Bill+Rose)
> 19. 04:45 PM - Re: Franklin Engines? (n801bh@netzero.com)
> 20. 06:09 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (LarryMcFarland)
> 21. 06:52 PM - Re: Unstable Tach (Tim & Diane Shankland)
> 22. 07:35 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Mike Sinclair)
> 23. 07:35 PM - Re: Franklin Engines? (Randy L. Thwing)
> 24. 08:36 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
> 25. 08:36 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Thilo Kind)
> 26. 08:39 PM - Re: Franklin Engines? (Jimbo)
> 27. 09:13 PM - Crimping tool (LHusky@aol.com)
> 28. 09:32 PM - Re: Crimping tool (Zodie Rocket)
> 29. 09:49 PM - Re: Crimping tool (Paul Mulwitz)
> 30. 09:49 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Zodie Rocket)
> 31. 10:01 PM - Re: Crimping tool (Zodie Rocket)
> 32. 10:01 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Gary Gower)
> 33. 10:10 PM - Re: Crimping tool (LHusky@aol.com)
> 34. 10:19 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Mike Sinclair)
> 35. 10:32 PM - crimping tool (George Swinford)
> 36. 11:52 PM - Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. (Thilo Kind)
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 05:01:54 AM PST US
>From: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Tach problem
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
>
>This may NOT be a cure.
>
>A previous installation of my 912 had a tach problem....found that the bundle
of
>wire from engine to firewall, including Oil Temp, Oil Press, CHT, Tach, etc,
>was "near" the top left rear spark plug wire. "Near" in this case was about
>3mm (three millimeters), a mistake by the builder.
>
>There was enough induced voltage from the plug wire, at various RPM settings,
to
>interfere with the AC being sent to the tach that the whole mess was totally
>un-reliable. The pulses to the plug added "extra" pulses to the tach leads,
>or were exactly in phase at times and had a cancelling effect on the tach pulses.
>Whatever. It didn't work.
>
>Moved/separated stuff in the bundle. Cured the problem.
>
>All cases are different, results not typical, batteries not included, some assembly
>required, consult your doctor.
>
>do not archive
>
>Regards,
>
>Zed/701/912/905/etc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 05:01:54 AM PST US
>From: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aileron Trim
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I don't have measurements, but I describe how I did on
>my website. I made a mockup aileron to test various
>installations before making an opening in my aileron.
>
>http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/chowings4.htm
>
>The tab is effective for the purpose you identified,
>but the airplane should be fairly balanced first (it
>is not enough effective to correct major balance
>problems and you probably do not want to use too much
>aileron deflection just for keeping the plane
>straight).
>
>>From my picture, it appears the tab is 420 mm wide.
>
>I do believe that the tab will be more effective if
>installed inboard of the wing than at the outboard end
>of the wing. The tab acts to move the aileron up or
>down, not the wing. I think that if installed at the
>outboard end, the tab has more power to act on the
>position of the wing (arm) while it does have the same
>effect on the aileron than if it is on the inboard end
>(more cancellation of effect). But, this being said,
>I'm not an ingineer... Real ingineers, you're welcome
>to shoot or support this therory!
>
>Michel
>PS: I also had a heavy left wing problem. I corrected
>it by making a new rear spar attachment plate on which
>I offset the hole. The new plate was matched drilled
>with the old plate installed on a drilling jig (a
>piece of plywood with two guides at 90 degrees). It
>took a long evening to remove the wing, remove the
>rear plate, drill a new plate, install it, and
>readjust the incidence of the wing root fairing
>(remove rivets, position, redrill, install a few
>additional rivets.)
>
>To check the incidence, I attached plastic blocs on a
>level. On each bloc, I tapped holes and installed
>screws. The front bloc fits under the front spar.
>The rear bloc fits under the rear spar. By adjusting
>the screws to get the level straight on one wing, I
>was able to compare the level of the second wing. I
>was also able to confirm that there is no twist in the
>wings. It is also easy to calculate the exact
>incidence of the wing (calculate the height difference
>of the screws, consider the height of the rear spar
>relative to the front spar - from the rib template,
>apply sinus law or something like that).
>
>
>--- john H <professor71@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H"
>><professor71@hotmail.com>
>>
>>Hi List
>>I am going to retrofit my 601HHD with an aileron
>>trim to balance out my
>>heavy left wing when flying solo. Does anyone have
>>drawings as how to do
>>this? I will be using the RAC servo with external
>>trim tab. Was wondering
>>how far back from the trailing edge to mount the
>>servo? Left or right wing
>>preference? Size of the trim tab and any other
>>helpful info and drawings.
>>
>>Thanks
>>John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>browse
>>Subscriptions page,
>>FAQ,
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>>
>>Admin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------------
>Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
> http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
> http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 06:58:58 AM PST US
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach
>From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>Sometimes (quite often actually) the coils go bad (low resisatnce on the
>primary side...It usually frys the $300 ignitor chip too so you need to
>check this out before your next flight).
>
>I could how this might cause it...Check your primary coil resistance,
>should be about 1.1 ohms I believe.
>
>Try swapping just the coils and see if the problem follows the coil.
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim & Diane
>Shankland
>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 6:11 PM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland
>--> <tshank@core.com>
>
>I remember this being discussed in the past but I have not been able to
>locate anything with the search engine. I have a Status Suburu and a VDO
>tach. Above 3000 RPM's the tach become unstable, jumping 1000 RPM's or
>more at a time. I have tried some filtering on the line with no success.
>
>When I switch the tach to the secondary ignition it is stable. I was
>hoping someone had solved this before, so I have to cart my Tectronics
>scope out to the shop and try to track this down.
>
>Tim Shankland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 08:11:49 AM PST US
>From: shilocom@mcmsys.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines?
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: shilocom@mcmsys.com
>
>IMHO the polock engines are not near the quality of the old american engines,
>but are the same basic engine, but a lot of changes in manufacture etc. Buy
>the old heavy case engines if you have a choice. Bob U.
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>>
>> Franklins are made in Poland from the original drawings. They've been
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>around about as long as Continental or Lycoming. Don't know if they're
>>related to the radials. The Polish do good work, but there's more data
>>available for the Jabiru, at about the same price. Already looked into them-
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>factor in cowl and mount availability.
>> Bill
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>>To: "Zenith" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 10:02 PM
>>Subject: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>Whats the scoop on these Franklin engines? Who makes them? How long have
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>they been around? Where are they made? Are they any good? Does anybody
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>have one flying? Are they any relation to the old Franklin radial engines
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>made many years ago?
>>>
>>>Don Mountain
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 08:48:31 AM PST US
>From: "Chuck & Lana Maggart" <cmaggart@sprintmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Stabilizer Skin
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck & Lana Maggart" <cmaggart@sprintmail.com>
>
>I had a similar problem with a skin that appeared too short to wrap around. After
>talking to Nick, he told me to wrap the skins BEFORE adding the tip ribs.
>It worked just fine. The newer instructions also say to do this on page 7 of
>12 for dwg.6T2A, rev. 2/28/05.
>
>Chuck Maggart
>601XL nearly finished
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 10:21:18 AM PST US
>From: "John Anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
>
>Hi Group,
> Just to add to Ray's comment on the Franklin's smoothness. I have been
>privileged to own three Stinsons. They were all extremely smooth and no
>squawks in 720 hours. I noticed that Franklin now is producing 0235s. I bet
>it is a lot smoother than my Hd 601 Lycoming 0235. I know it is a lot less
>expensive at $7000. Bet it's not any stronger.
>John Al
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ray Murphy" <ray.murphy@verizon.net>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 5:13 PM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines
>
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ray Murphy" <ray.murphy@verizon.net>
>>
>>My Stinson 108-3 had a Franklin Engine. It was a 6 cyl. and 165 hp.
>>
>>
>Without a doubt, it was the smoothest piston engine I've ever flown behind.
>
>
>>Ray Murphy
>>Bandon, OR
>>601 XL wannabe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 11:14:54 AM PST US
>From: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
>I am getting ready to drill some 3/16" diameter holes through the plastic lens
>for the headlights on my 601 XL. What should I use? I have tried drilling holes
>in plastic before and had normal bits with a tip angle of 118 degrees grab
>and split the plastic. Is there a better solution?
>
>Don Mountain
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 11:22:03 AM PST US
>From: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
>They don't seem to have much of a presence in the United States market. I looked
>at their web page after someone else here mentioned the apparent cheap price.
>And that someone down in Georgia sells them. Thats a little far to go for
>parts from Iowa. And I never see any parts advertised for them. I think I will
>let someone else take the plunge first and put one in a 601 XL.
>
>Don
>
>John Anderson <ande437@bellsouth.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by:
>"John Anderson"
>
>Hi Group,
> Just to add to Ray's comment on the Franklin's smoothness. I have been
>privileged to own three Stinsons. They were all extremely smooth and no
>squawks in 720 hours. I noticed that Franklin now is producing 0235s. I bet
>it is a lot smoother than my Hd 601 Lycoming 0235. I know it is a lot less
>expensive at $7000. Bet it's not any stronger.
>John Al
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ray Murphy"
>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 5:13 PM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 11:30:12 AM PST US
>From: BrownTool@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: BrownTool@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 3/9/2006 1:15:42 PM Central Standard Time,
>mountain4don@yahoo.com writes:
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
>I am getting ready to drill some 3/16" diameter holes through the plastic
>lens for the headlights on my 601 XL. What should I use? I have tried
>drilling holes in plastic before and had normal bits with a tip angle of 118
degrees
>
>grab and split the plastic. Is there a better solution?
>
>Don Mountain
>
>
>Don and Zenith Listers,
>
>My company and most of the other kit aircraft tool suppliers sell drill bits
>specifically designed to drill plastics, plexiglas, and similar materials.
>The key factor is to have no "rake" on the cutting edge of the drill bit which
>
>prevents "grabbing" in these types of materials.
>
>Ours can be found on our website at:
>
>http://www.browntool.com/productselect.asp?ProductID=635
>
>As always, feel free to contact me off list with any technical application
>issues.
>
>Take care,
>
>Michael Brown
>
>Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co.
>2536 S.E. 15th Street
>Oklahoma City, OK 73129
>USA
>
>405-688-6888
>Fax 405-688-6555
>browntool@aol.com
>www.browntool.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 11:35:48 AM PST US
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>There are special flexi glass drill bits...These have a much steeper
>angle...Or you can grind and old drill bit to look like a pencil and it
>works pretty well...Warm the plastic to 100F...in front of your shop
>heater.
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
>Mountain
>Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 11:12 AM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
>I am getting ready to drill some 3/16" diameter holes through the
>plastic lens for the headlights on my 601 XL. What should I use? I
>have tried drilling holes in plastic before and had normal bits with a
>tip angle of 118 degrees grab and split the plastic. Is there a better
>solution?
>
>Don Mountain
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 12:04:31 PM PST US
>From: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>
>It's nice to see another pro monitoring our list and offering advice.
>Thanks Mike. Robert Schoenberger 701 do not archive.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <BrownTool@aol.com>
>Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 2:28 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: BrownTool@aol.com
>>
>>
>>In a message dated 3/9/2006 1:15:42 PM Central Standard Time,
>>mountain4don@yahoo.com writes:
>>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>>
>>I am getting ready to drill some 3/16" diameter holes through the plastic
>>lens for the headlights on my 601 XL. What should I use? I have tried
>>drilling holes in plastic before and had normal bits with a tip angle of
>>118 degrees
>>grab and split the plastic. Is there a better solution?
>>
>>Don Mountain
>>
>>
>>Don and Zenith Listers,
>>
>>My company and most of the other kit aircraft tool suppliers sell drill
>>bits
>>specifically designed to drill plastics, plexiglas, and similar materials.
>>The key factor is to have no "rake" on the cutting edge of the drill bit
>>which
>>prevents "grabbing" in these types of materials.
>>
>>Ours can be found on our website at:
>>
>>http://www.browntool.com/productselect.asp?ProductID=635
>>
>>As always, feel free to contact me off list with any technical application
>>issues.
>>
>>Take care,
>>
>>Michael Brown
>>
>>Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co.
>>2536 S.E. 15th Street
>>Oklahoma City, OK 73129
>>USA
>>
>>405-688-6888
>>Fax 405-688-6555
>>browntool@aol.com
>>www.browntool.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 12:47:58 PM PST US
>From: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>
>>From the archives:
>
>The two most common twist drill types off the shelf are:
>
>1. High speed steel, 118 degree point angle, standard chisel point.
>
>2. Cobalt steel, 135 degree point angle, split point.
>
>The standard chisel point tends to "walk" when started into work without
>center punching. The split point is considered self centering and center
>punching for hole location is not required. Cobalt steel is high speed
>steel with 6 to 8 percent cobalt added which makes it more wear resistant,
>giving more holes between sharpenings. Although either type works well in
>standard materials, for the small price difference, I always buy the cobalt
>split points.
>
>For a detailed article on drill point geometry, including altering drills to
>drill plexiglass, try this link:
>
>http://www.newmantools.com/machines/drillpoint.html
>
>Randy L. Thwing, do not archive, again
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 01:44:56 PM PST US
>From: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
>Use a Unibit! Works great. No grab.
>
>Cy Galley - Chair,
>AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
>A Service Project of Chapter 75
>EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
>EAA Sport Pilot
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:11 PM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>>
>>I am getting ready to drill some 3/16" diameter holes through the plastic
>>lens for the headlights on my 601 XL. What should I use? I have tried
>>drilling holes in plastic before and had normal bits with a tip angle of
>>118 degrees grab and split the plastic. Is there a better solution?
>>
>>Don Mountain
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 01:48:38 PM PST US
>From: <dredmoody@cox.net>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling plastic lens
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
>
>Try a brand new 3-point bit with high speed and light pressure and masking tape
>on the back side. Also make certain that the plastic is supported by a wood block
>to spread out the pressure from the drill.
>
>Ed Moody II
>Rayne, LA
>601XL waiting on kit
>
>
>
>>I am getting ready to drill some 3/16" diameter holes through the plastic lens
>>
>>
>for the headlights on my 601 XL. What should I use? I have tried drilling
>holes in plastic before and had normal bits with a tip angle of 118 degrees grab
>and split the plastic. Is there a better solution?
>
>
>>Don Mountain
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 01:57:09 PM PST US
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Drilling plastic lens
>From: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
>
>"frank.hinde(at)hp.com" suggested a very sharp drillpoint angle. Thats what I
would
>do. However, you can find that angle on center drills which are cheap and
>I always have plenty of them around. I would use a #2 center drill which has
>a body dia of 3/16. I would take it almost all the way through and then turn the
>part around and finish drilling it from the back. That way you don't risk a
>breakout. Try a test part first. There is a good chance that the steep angle
>on the center drill will act the way Frank said and drill a good hole from one
>side only
> Geoff Heap
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20668#20668
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 03:23:46 PM PST US
>From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Insurance
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
>
>I just called my insurance company (Falcon) and asked what the changes would be
>if I started flying as a Sport Pilot instead of a Private Pilot (not getting
>my medical renewed). He answer was no change in cost or coverage.
>
>I just did my bi-annual in my CH 701, what a hoot. The CFI enjoyed it too.
>
>Chuck D.
>N701TX
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 04:19:27 PM PST US
>From: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 4:56 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
>
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>>
>>
>>
>Larry-
> Trying to Scotch any speculation. What does Zenith recommend for static
>testing?
> Bill
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>Concerned as well but,
>>I'd not recommend speculation on anything until facts are in. It's got
>>to be something as simple as
>>an incorrectly fastened or fabricated spar. The people investigating
>>will be able to easily see
>>what gave it up in the first place. Incorrect assembly will
>>differentiate itself from outright failure as
>>strongly as a fatigued part or incorrect material, bolts etc. The
>>people that do these investigations are better at
>>it than we are and are seeing a lot more of it these days. I'd predict
>>it's not going to be as hard as it sounds,
>>but will take a little more time.
>>
>>From the perspective of one that's blissfully retired going on 3 years
>>now.
>>
>> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 04:19:27 PM PST US
>From: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines?
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 4:02 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines?
>
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>>Everyone missed my main point- once again,
>>Already looked into them-
>>FACTOR IN COWL AND MOUNT AVAILABILITY!!!!!!!!!
>> Bill
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Don Mountain" <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>>To: "Zenith" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 10:02 PM
>>Subject: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>Whats the scoop on these Franklin engines? Who makes them? How long
>>>have
>>>they been around? Where are they made? Are they any good? Does anybody
>>>have one flying? Are they any relation to the old Franklin radial
>>>engines
>>>made many years ago?
>>>
>>>Don Mountain
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 04:45:22 PM PST US
>From: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines?
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
>
>IMHO the polock engines are not near the quality of the old american engines,
>but are the same basic engine, but a lot of changes in manufacture etc. Buy
>the old heavy case engines if you have a choice. Bob U.
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill+Rose" <naumuk@allte
>>
>>
>l.net>
>
>//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>I could be wrong here but, When I tried to buy a new a 6 cyl 350 cu in 220 hp
Franklin
>for my 801 from the distributor in Colorado a few years back I was told
>by him that Frankiln was going out of businees and altho he could sell me one
>of his last ones he had in stock he said "good luck on finding parts later".
>Like I said this guy might have been full of you know what.
>do not archive
>
>
>Ben Haas
>N801BH
>www.haaspowerair.com
>
>
>IMHO the polock engines are not near the quality of the old american engines,
>but are the same basic engine, but a lot of changes in manufacture etc. Buy
>the old heavy case engines if you have a choice. Bob U.
>
>-- Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill+Rose" <A class=3Dm1 onclick=3D"top.checkNewBrowser('26?To=3Dnaumuk@alltel.netcount=3D1141950952')"
>#">naumuk@allte
>l.net
>
>
>//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
>
>I could be wrong here but, When I tried to buy a newa 6 cyl 350 cu in 220 hpFranklin
>for my 801from the distributor in Colorado a few years back I was told by
>him that Frankiln was going out of businees and altho he could sell me one of
>his last ones he had in stock he said "good luck on finding parts later". Like
>I said this guy might have been full of you know what.
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
>BenHaas
>N801BH
>www.haaspowerair.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 06:09:54 PM PST US
>From: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
>
>As far as I know, Zenith doesn't suggest a process or method for static
>testing wings or spars.
>Few builders would know what to do with static testing if they were
>furnished and required as in Finland
>the U.K. and other places. I'd not encourage anyone to suggest that
>FAA should consider it either!
>
>If built, loaded and flown within specifications, the engineering
>drawings and guidance by the designer
>should take care of that. Doesn't mean you can't think for yourself,
>but I'd only static test something
>I introduced that wasn't covered well enough by the design.
>
>Larry McFarland - 601HDS
>do not archive
>
>Bill+Rose wrote:
>
>
>
>>Larry-
>> Trying to Scotch any speculation. What does Zenith recommend for static
>>testing?
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Concerned as well but,
>>>I'd not recommend speculation on anything until facts are in. It's got
>>>to be something as simple as
>>>an incorrectly fastened or fabricated spar. The people investigating
>>>will be able to easily see
>>>what gave it up in the first place. Incorrect assembly will
>>>differentiate itself from outright failure as
>>>strongly as a fatigued part or incorrect material, bolts etc. The
>>>people that do these investigations are better at
>>>it than we are and are seeing a lot more of it these days. I'd predict
>>>it's not going to be as hard as it sounds,
>>>but will take a little more time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>From the perspective of one that's blissfully retired going on 3 years
>>
>>
>>>now.
>>>
>>>Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>>>do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 06:52:03 PM PST US
>From: Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank@core.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank@core.com>
>
>Thanks for the suggestions, I all ready have tried resistors, either no
>effect or no tach, I'll check the coil although the engine only has
>about 6 hours on it and I haven't flown it yet. And I will check for
>inductive coupling and maybe swap the coils.
>
>Tim Shankland
>
>Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>>
>>Sometimes (quite often actually) the coils go bad (low resisatnce on the
>>primary side...It usually frys the $300 ignitor chip too so you need to
>>check this out before your next flight).
>>
>>I could how this might cause it...Check your primary coil resistance,
>>should be about 1.1 ohms I believe.
>>
>>Try swapping just the coils and see if the problem follows the coil.
>>
>>Frank
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim & Diane
>>Shankland
>>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 6:11 PM
>>To: Zenith List
>>Subject: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach
>>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland
>>--> <tshank@core.com>
>>
>>I remember this being discussed in the past but I have not been able to
>>locate anything with the search engine. I have a Status Suburu and a VDO
>>tach. Above 3000 RPM's the tach become unstable, jumping 1000 RPM's or
>>more at a time. I have tried some filtering on the line with no success.
>>
>>When I switch the tach to the secondary ignition it is stable. I was
>>hoping someone had solved this before, so I have to cart my Tectronics
>>scope out to the shop and try to track this down.
>>
>>Tim Shankland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 07:35:12 PM PST US
>From: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@ATT.NET>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
>For what it's worth, and from what I understand from working in the commercial
>aviation & general aviation airplane building business for quite a few years,
>and from general bull sessions with many friends and co-workers in both sectors,
>plus numerous articles and films I've seen showing this kind of testing, a
>static test is a test of destruction. This testing is a process to find at what
>point the structure will fail. So I suspect that if you don't want to invest
>the money to buy (and build) a second airframe and set of wings that will be
>destroyed in the process of testing, any thought of doing a true static test is
>a mental excercise only. And therefore probably not very productive. Surely you
>don't want to try bending your wings to the point that they might possibly fail,
>and then put those same wings on your airplane. I also don't believe you are
>going to want a bunch of lard butts standing on your wing just to show how
>strong it is in negative g's, and then again, go put those same wings on an
>airplane you intend to fly. I sugest that if you have any concerns about the
>actual failing point of these structures, then you contact the designer about
>any testing he may have done along these lines.
>
>Mike Sinclair
>
>LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>>
>>As far as I know, Zenith doesn't suggest a process or method for static
>>testing wings or spars.
>>Few builders would know what to do with static testing if they were
>>furnished and required as in Finland
>>the U.K. and other places. I'd not encourage anyone to suggest that
>>FAA should consider it either!
>>
>>If built, loaded and flown within specifications, the engineering
>>drawings and guidance by the designer
>>should take care of that. Doesn't mean you can't think for yourself,
>>but I'd only static test something
>>I introduced that wasn't covered well enough by the design.
>>
>>Larry McFarland - 601HDS
>>
>>Bill+Rose wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Larry-
>>> Trying to Scotch any speculation. What does Zenith recommend for static
>>>testing?
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 07:35:12 PM PST US
>From: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Franklin Engines?
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>
>I have two Franklin engines, a A-120 60 hp two cylinder and a A-235 125 hp
>four cylinder. The 60 is what I call a "Syracuse" (US made) Franklin and
>the 125 is a PZL (Polish) made Franklin. I have "heard" the following, I
>have no idea if it is really true or not: I would like to know the true
>story myself:
>
>PZL is the Polish aerospace Company that bought out Franklin after they went
>out of business in the US in the early 1970's.
>Pratt & Whitney recently purchased PZL itself or their engine divisions.
>Pratt & Whitney has no interest in continuing to produce piston engines, so
>the Franklin line may languish.
>
>That's the last I heard, and have no idea what if any is true.
>
>I am a Franklin fan and I hope they continue in production.
>
>Regards,
>
>Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive
>
>
>
>
>>I could be wrong here but, When I tried to buy a newa 6 cyl 350 cu in 220
>>
>>
>hpFranklin for my 801from the distributor in Colorado a few years back I was
>told by him that Frankiln was going out of businees and altho he could sell
>me one of his last ones he had in stock he said "good luck on finding parts
>later". Like I said this guy might have been full of you know what.
>
>
>>do not archive
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>BenHaas
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 08:36:49 PM PST US
>From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
>>From a XL assembler and driver who takes his best friends up, his Wife and
>Son up and Grandson up, that flew 2.3 hours last Saturday and will probably
>exceed that this week end, yes the wings crumpling up on a XL and killing a couple
>
>fellows really concerns me and the fact that no one has much to offer as
>answers concerns me as well. This list should be for more than for beating which
>
>dammed scotch bright pad to use to death or how many fuel pumps between the
>tanks, in the wing root, behind the firewall and in front of the firewall equals
>
>a vapor lock ! Some of you guys are engineers and airplane designers. Frank
>has 10,000 hours on every plane there is and some of you all even more. Get in
>
>here and give us XL'ers your best shot. Screw waiting for some egg head from
>the NTSB. I want to fly this weekend. Who has some ideas that we who are
>actually flying XLs can employ to make our birds more safe this weekend ? Anybody
>
>care to speculate what failed and what we could be looking at while NTSB takes
>
>another coffee break and delivers their "guess" six months from now. Yes, I'm
>
>in a piss mood, 72 hours without tobacco and an airplane that the wings may
>fall off. Do Not Archive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 08:36:49 PM PST US
>From: "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind@gmx.net>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind@gmx.net>
>
>
>Hi Mike,
>
>static testing does not need to be destructive. In many countries static
>testing up to the design load is required by the authorities for
>experimentals. For that, the wing is turned up side down and mounted to a
>jig (or you might also turn the whole plane upside down). Next, the wing is
>then loaded with sandbags up to the designed wing loads. In a 601 HDs, that
>would be 6 g or 3 times gross weight per wing.
>
>Destructive testing is required, if you want to know the ultimate load.
>Airbus just did it with a wing from their new A 380. I don't know the load,
>but they bend the wing tip 7 m (21") before breaking it.
>
>Happy building / flying
>
>Thilo Kind
>
>
>>--- Ursprngliche Nachricht ---
>>Von: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@ATT.NET>
>>An: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>Betreff: Re: Zenith-List: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture.
>>Datum: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 21:24:03 -0600
>>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>>
>>For what it's worth, and from what I understand from working in the
>>commercial
>>aviation & general aviation airplane building business for quite a few
>>years,
>>and from general bull sessions with many friends and co-workers in both
>>sectors,
>>plus numerous articles and films I've seen showing this kind of testing, a
>>static test is a test of destruction. This testing is a process to find at
>>what
>>point the structure will fail. So I suspect that if you don't want to
>>invest
>>the money to buy (and build) a second airframe and set of wings that will
>>be
>>destroyed in the process of testing, any thought of doing a true static
>>test is
>>a mental excercise only. And therefore probably not very productive.
>>Surely you
>>don't want to try bending your wings to the point that they might possibly
>>fail,
>>and then put those same wings on your airplane. I also don't believe you
>>are
>>going to want a bunch of lard butts standing on your wing just to show how
>>strong it is in negative g's, and then again, go put those same wings on
>>an
>>airplane you intend to fly. I sugest that if you have any concerns about
>>the
>>actual failing point of these structures, then you contact the designer
>>about
>>any testing he may have done along these lines.
>>
>>Mike Sinclair
>>
>>LarryMcFarland wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland
>>>
>>>
>><larry@macsmachine.com>
>>
>>
>>>As far as I know, Zenith doesn't suggest a process or method for static
>>>testing wings or spars.
>>>Few builders would know what to do with static testing if they were
>>>furnished and required as in Finland
>>>the U.K. and other places. I'd not encourage anyone to suggest that
>>>FAA should consider it either!
>>>
>>>If built, loaded and flown within specifications, the engineering
>>>drawings and guidance by the designer
>>>should take care of that. Doesn't mean you can't think for yourself,
>>>but I'd only static test something
>>>I introduced that wasn't covered well enough by the design.
>>>
>>>Larry McFarland - 601HDS
>>>
>>>Bill+Rose wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Larry-
>>>> Trying to Scotch any speculation. What does Zenith recommend for
>>>>
>>>>
>>static
>>
>>
>>>>testing?
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
Bill,
I will step out on a limb here for you and make a few
comments. According to the accounts I have read, the
builder was described as being immaculate in his work.
A comment I hope we all can have said for our work.
The pilots were both very experienced.
The NTSB approaches investigations based on facts. The
fact is we have what is called an "upset from normal
flight", caused by structural failure of the wing.
Then they must determine what caused the failure. Were
any of the wing attach bolts left out, or did they
fail for some other reason? - Check yours.
This accident occurred in the pattern (low speed). Did
something in the flap control circuit fail when the
flaps were being used and allow the flaps "flap",
either together or independantly, without restraint?
Would this create high enough loads to fail the wing?
- Check yours.
What would happen if an aileron control cable broke or
a swage failed? Would it allow the ailerons to flutter
and destroy the wing, even at low airspeed? - Check
yours.
I know the 601 has been flutter tested by the
manufacturer, but all of the technical articles I read
say there will be diferences between aircraft of the
same model, due to variances in things like circuit
friction, cable tensions, added weight aft of the
hinge line (i.e. electric trim or fixed tabs). I am
not suggesting this accident was caused by high speed
flutter. I am concerned as to what would happen to
these large, unbalanced control surfaces after a
failure in the control circuit, and they are allowed
to flutter without restraint at any speed.
General aviation airplanes are required in FAR Part 23
certification to be able to maintain control after a
failure of a primary flight control, by using the
remaing controls (trim, rudder and such). I know this
doesn't apply to AB/EX, but it is something that
should be part of any good control system design.
I am inclined to go with aileron control system
failure and subsequent flutter that caused aerodynamic
forces great enough to deform and eventually fail the
spar.
Ducking
Do not archive
Craig Moore A&P
701 builder wannabe
--- JAPhillipsGA@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by:
> JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
> Mark, thanks, but speculation can be healthy.
> Remember, we all want the "e"
> in experimental to be a small "e". If NASA did a
> little more speculation and
> grasping we might have a couple more space shuttles
> parked around Florida.
> This body of builders has a boundless collective
> knowledge and experience. We
> should encourage the thought process. If you follow
> the NTSB reports you will
> note very quickly that many, many accidents have no
> definitive resolution. I have
> read hundreds of accident reports that NTSB offered
> no reason. We assemblers
> of XLs need to be proactive in an effort to
> determine what would cause such an
> event and self inspect. The prudent pilot and
> assembler would be remiss not
> to try. Best to you, Bill of Georgia
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
> from your fine country on this list.
You didn't seen Conan's wednesday? episode ;-)
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman <stutzman@stutzman.com>
On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, Jari Kaija wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
>
> > Few builders would know what to do with static testing if they were
> > furnished and required as in Finland
>
> Hmmm... in here, Finland, we do not need to do static tests at all
> to planes, what has tested already in other (approved) countries.
>
> IF we are going to build totally new plane model or we are going
> to make some welds to structural parts, we have two way to prove
> structures.
>
> Ie. with welded parts we can use static test without breaking parts
> (using only forces, what plane should handle already) and we can
> make several demonstration welds and prove with them, that person
> is capable to do whatever he is doing. We can also use penetration
> chemicals to prove satisfactory welds.
>
> All building process are monitored by personal, CAA approved
> supervisor, who take cares, that builder won't make any mistakes
> AND do not try to go there, where the fence is lower...
Hmm, maybe things have changed.
The first Bowers Flybaby built in Finland was statically tested. The test
report (translated into English) is at
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/safety/Finnish_Load_Report.pdf. This test was
done sometime in '70s and by that time the Flybaby prototype had been
flying for more than decade at that point.
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
The problem with all of these possible problems and the idea that this group could
come up with a fix "for this weekend" is that no one here even has access
to the plane.
There was, I believe, one witness that saw the wing fail. It could have been an
optical illusion. We don't know.
--------
W.R. Gig Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20896#20896
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Craig, thank you for your insight. Did you happen to read the AOPA article on
the Beaver that the wings were destroyed from a low speed flutter (115mph) as
a result of aileron imbalance? Frankly, I had no idea that ailerons had to be
balanced. Surely, such destruction on the Beaver was unanticipated and the
Company had tested the design before marketing. As an A&P, you may have
encountered aileron imbalance. What would we simple assemblers need to look for
that
could forestal such an event occurring in our XLs. Thanks, Bill
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Gig, thanks and you made a good point. Have you had a chance to read the
preliminary NTSB report ? My point is I think we should be part of the process
not
just patient recipients. I understand our XLs have been tested and this has
not happened before. I encourage you to read the AOPA post article on the low
speed flutter of a Beaver that destroyed the wings as a result of an aileron
imbalance. Never happened to a Beaver before either. Have you read anything from
ZAC concerning balancing ailerons on a XL ? Hope you are well and I
appreciate you opinion, Bill
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 36 Msgs - 03/09/06 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Another thing that can save a lot of time for other list readers (especially
those who receive the digest version) is to trim the quoted text in your
replies to leave just enough information to identify what you are replying
to instead of quoting the entire daily digest. :)
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
on 3/10/06 1:41 PM, Blueraven at bluedog@ak.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Blueraven <bluedog@ak.net>
>
> I'm new to the list but was wondering..
>
> Why dont he advertizer's on this list set up a page where they can put
> there info and links rather than trying to hawk there wares when the
> people are trying to get answers to their questions.
>
> that wld save time for everyone..
>
> BR
> ==========
>
Message 30
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Tedford" <rick.tedford@sympatico.ca>
Fellow listers : I noticed in the NTSB report that first the left wing folded up
and then the right wing folded . While I do not believe we should speculate
as to what happened , it sure sounds like some main spar bolts either failed or
were missing . I have had my 601XL in extremely severe turbulence and the only
thing hurt was me. ( head on canopy ) . Checking for 12 bolts in the main centre
spar and 2 bolts at the rear is now part of my preflight inspection .
FWIW
Rick Tedford
601XL , Jab 3300
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Tragic Accident - more stupid conjecture. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Marzulli" <john.marzulli@gmail.com>
Here is the pilot's account of the Beaver incident.
http://www.aopa.org/pilot/never_again/2006/na0603.html
Sounds very different than what the witness reported in the prelim NTSB
report.
On 3/10/06, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
> Gig, thanks and you made a good point. Have you had a chance to read the
> preliminary NTSB report ? My point is I think we should be part of the
> process not
> just patient recipients. I understand our XLs have been tested and this
> has
> not happened before. I encourage you to read the AOPA post article on the
> low
> speed flutter of a Beaver that destroyed the wings as a result of an
> aileron
> imbalance. Never happened to a Beaver before either. Have you read
> anything from
> ZAC concerning balancing ailerons on a XL ? Hope you are well and I
> appreciate you opinion, Bill
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Trajic accident |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
In all my previous hang gliders, ultralights and now the 701, since 30 years ago,,,
ALL the structural main bolts ARE part of my daily preflight (check the
red paint align), The important part of prefight is to keep own confidence
(daily) and second, prevent a future problem (very rare). Same thing as preventive
mantainance in aviation, off course.
If we get poisoned by an unknow fear, we will never enjoy flying the rest of
our lives.
"Fear is a result of unknown facts, once you know them fear is gone..." (not
my post but remember it since teenager, probably also a bad translation to
english).
Read about a pilot that was honored with high time (lots of flying hours!)
He flew all his life checking power lines in small airplanes at low speed and
low altitude.
He admited that day, that he always feared (since his first solo) of a engine
quit, he admited smiling also, that in all his flying hours and years, any of
the engines of all the airplanes he flew, never loosed a beat.
Lots of pilots are lost by fear to golf or fishing (from the shore, off course)
:-) :-) :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Rick Tedford <rick.tedford@sympatico.ca> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Tedford"
Fellow listers : I noticed in the NTSB report that first the left wing folded up
and then the right wing folded . While I do not believe we should speculate
as to what happened , it sure sounds like some main spar bolts either failed or
were missing . I have had my 601XL in extremely severe turbulence and the only
thing hurt was me. ( head on canopy ) . Checking for 12 bolts in the main centre
spar and 2 bolts at the rear is now part of my preflight inspection .
FWIW
Rick Tedford
601XL , Jab 3300
---------------------------------
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Posting entire list |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Blueraven <bluedog@ak.net>
I didnt mean to do and Im sorry.
BR
=================
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Posting entire list |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Stuff happens. :)
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Blueraven <bluedog@ak.net>
>
> I didnt mean to do and Im sorry.
>
> BR
Message 35
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <ande437@bellsouth.net>
Hi Tommy and Group,
A degaussing tool from a computer room that run large commercial tape
drives will do the job. Several businesses in Anniston run such machines.
You could obtain fine insulated wire from a motor rewind shop, inexpensive,
wind it in an 8 or 10 inch coil of many turns. The number of turns nor their
diameter is critical. Wire a 330 ohm or so resistor and half amp fuse in
series with the coil and plug it into 120 volts. Pass the loop around the
frame until it is shown to be demagnetized. Do not turn device on or off
while close to metal. If you have any questions call me. 205-672-7152
CUL,
John
601HD 57hrs
Harpersville, Al
Do not archive
Message 36
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Tedford" <rick.tedford@sympatico.ca>
I am sorry . I should have said Do not archive
Best regards
Rick
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Unstable Tach |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank@core.com>
I am using a switch to change the tach form one ignition to the other,
true a shorting of the switch could cause the selected one to fail. I
guess I could include a 1 or 2 K resistor in series with those lead to
protect from that possibility.
Tim
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>The good thing is there aren't many things it can be. You know it is not
>the tach, so it has to be something to do with an ignition component.
>
>Just a thought Tim, are you using a changeover switch between one
>ignition system and the other?
>
>If you have you do realise you have just connected the ignitions
>together. It is not impossible for that switch to short to ground and it
>could ground out both your ingitons and stop you engine running.
>
>Likely?...No, but it is generally not a good idea to rely on a single
>component in a critical application.
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim & Diane
>Shankland
>Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 6:55 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unstable Tach
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland
>--> <tshank@core.com>
>
>Thanks for the suggestions, I all ready have tried resistors, either no
>effect or no tach, I'll check the coil although the engine only has
>about 6 hours on it and I haven't flown it yet. And I will check for
>inductive coupling and maybe swap the coils.
>
>Tim Shankland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Unstable UMA Tach |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
While on the subject of unstable tachs I have a question myself. I have
a UMA tach on my Jab 3300 (0 to 3500 rpm scale) and it's spot-on
accurate from 1000 rpm to beyond 3100 rpm. The problem is that it just
stops reading and goes to zero rpms below 950 or so rpms. When it's
sitting on O rpm I don't know if it's at low idle or stopped. Don't
want to grind up a starter taking the wrong action! If I keep it at
fast idle it's great. It uses a pickup wire from the voltage regulator
to trigger it so there isn't any way to put it on the other mag, etc.
Anyone have any ideas or the same experience with a UMA tach?
Thanks
Ron DeWees
>
>
Message 39
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Thanks John, I want to get down to Sylacauga to see your new engine when I can.
I am driving down to Mobile and will come through Sylacauga on March 24. If
you are going to be around the airport, I would like to see your project.
Thanks,
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not Archive
ande437(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
> Hi Tommy and Group,
> A degaussing tool from a computer room that run large commercial tape
> drives will do the job. Several businesses in Anniston run such machines.
> You could obtain fine insulated wire from a motor rewind shop, inexpensive,
> wind it in an 8 or 10 inch coil of many turns. The number of turns nor their
> diameter is critical. Wire a 330 ohm or so resistor and half amp fuse in
> series with the coil and plug it into 120 volts. Pass the loop around the
> frame until it is shown to be demagnetized. Do not turn device on or off
> while close to metal. If you have any questions call me. 205-672-7152
> CUL,
> John
> 601HD 57hrs
> Harpersville, Al
>
> Do not archive
--------
Tommy Walker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20956#20956
Message 40
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| Subject: | New DVD: Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
This is a one time announcement of a brand new video that HomebuiltHELP will be
releasing this weekend:
"Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft"
This film is targeted towards the person who would like to witness the creating
of metal ribs, spars and other components from scratch that are used in constructing
a plane like a 601 or 701. An excellent resource for those who want a
genuine understanding of the skills, tools and techniques of plans building.
The most significant feature of this production is that it "stars' two gentlemen that you are already quite familiar with... and I will let you discover who these builders are by visiting http://homebuilthelp.com/Scratch.htm
Won't take up any more bandwidth here with details; they are all on the aforementioned
website.
Hope to see all at Sun n Fun... a great way to kiss the winter time goodbye one
more time and welcome the upcoming spring!
Jon
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