---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/28/06: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:06 AM - Re: XL Gascolater Location (Hunt Malcolm) 2. 03:26 AM - Re: Mixture Control on the Rotax 912ULS (Michel Therrien) 3. 03:56 AM - 912A Choke... (Jari Kaija) 4. 05:13 AM - Re: wing tank fuel line connection. (Bob Unternaehrer) 5. 05:29 AM - Re: XL Gas Struts & Eyelets (N5SL) 6. 05:38 AM - Re: Welding my tanks (steveadams) 7. 05:44 AM - Re: fuel sender access covers (N5SL) 8. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Welding my tanks (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 07:26 AM - Re:912A Choke... () 10. 07:42 AM - VDO fuel tank senders (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 07:50 AM - Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) (Tim Juhl) 12. 08:14 AM - Re: 801801801801 (Larry Landucci) 13. 08:14 AM - Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. (Jari Kaija) 14. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 08:32 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 16. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Welding my tanks (Bob Unternaehrer) 17. 08:52 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. (Jon Croke) 18. 09:08 AM - Re: VDO fuel tank senders (Bill Steer) 19. 09:58 AM - Re: fuel sender access covers (Mike) 20. 10:02 AM - Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) (Tim Juhl) 21. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 22. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 23. 10:51 AM - Re: fuel sender access covers (Robin Bellach) 24. 11:12 AM - Re: Welding my tanks (steveadams) 25. 11:52 AM - Re: Ready to start project (Gig Giacona) 26. 12:16 PM - Re: Notes from Rudder Workshop (Weston Walker) 27. 01:20 PM - Re: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. (Dave) 28. 01:48 PM - Re: fuel sender access covers (Tim Juhl) 29. 02:26 PM - Re: Re: fuel sender access covers (Robin Bellach) 30. 02:39 PM - Re: Engines for the 701 (nyterminat@AOL.COM) 31. 02:52 PM - Re: VDO fuel tank senders (nyterminat@aol.com) 32. 02:52 PM - Re: Engines for the 701 (John Marzulli) 33. 03:00 PM - Fuel sender placement (Zed Smith) 34. 03:28 PM - Re: Fuel sender placement (Brad Cohen) 35. 03:28 PM - Re: CH 701 bolts, nuts, s.l. nuts, washers, screws, rod and,....... (Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito) 36. 03:34 PM - Re: Re: Ready to start project (Bill Naumuk) 37. 04:12 PM - Re: Notes from Rudder Workshop (Al Young) 38. 06:18 PM - Re: 801801801801 (n801bh@netzero.com) 39. 08:44 PM - Builder of an CH640 from plan (Christian Tremblay) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:39 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Gascolater Location From: "Hunt Malcolm" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" Scott Your XL is looking good! One point that I have been struggling with, and you have now installed yours, is the gas struts for the canopy. The plans/manual give details of the compressed and extended lengths, the duty and that M6 eyelets are used. It does not give the diameter of the body or the rod diameter. In UK we have as standard, struts with 15mm bodies and 6mm rods (15/6) or 18mm bodies and 8mm rods (18/8), the trouble is that the 15/6 normally have M5 threads and the 18/8 M6 thread. The 18mm body may just be too big for the steel canopy frame housing. Can you advise what you used? Many thanks in advance and thanks for sharing your pictures Malcolm Hunt CH601XL Plans builder in England -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL Sent: 27 March 2006 16:55 Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Gascolater Location --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Chuck: Not a Jabiru but look on the lower, right side of the firewall(looking forward)under the battery. It's gold. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_18_06_EngineMounted.JPG Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Plumbing intake piping "Chuck & Lana > Maggart" > Where have you all been installing the gascolater? > Chuck Maggart, XL/Jabiru Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. *************************************************************************************************************** The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. *************************************************************************************************************** ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:40 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mixture Control on the Rotax 912ULS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Actually, this is normal and a good thing. If I understand what I learned right, mixture needs to be rich (about 12:1) at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) for maximum HP. Then, at cruise speed, it can run leaner. Michel do not archive --- Grant Corriveau wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > > FWIW, > > I installed a mixture monitor gauge on my CAM100 > just to make me 'feel > better' that the automatic mixture compensation in > my autocarb was working. > It's interesting to see that at 5,000 rpm the > mixture is running richer than > at 4900 -- I don't have enough data to prove > anything yet, but from another > operator, I suspect that there is a significant fuel > economy over a tank of > fuel, buy reducing to this setting and accepting > 5mph less speed. > > Also, any variance in this instrument should alert > me to problems before > they lead to running out of gas or having a > carb/engine failure. > > Unhappily, the heavy lead content of AVGAS limits > this sensor to auto gas > only. > > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > From: Zenith-List Digest Server > > > Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 23:58:39 -0800 > > To: Zenith-List Digest List > > > Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 03/19/06 > > > > Time: 08:19:06 AM PST US > > From: Leo Gates > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: There is Mixture > Control on the Rotax 912ULS > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates > > > > > My 912UL (Uncertified) bought in 1997 has altitude > compensating Bing carbs. > > > > Leo Gates > > N601Z > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:02 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Zenith-List: 912A Choke... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" I were Rotax 912 engine service training at Sunday. One thing what came up, they told, that 912 needs choke when it's cold. Otherwise it won't start. Okay, no problem at all, I will include choke handle to my instrument panel. However, I looked pictures of 912 & CH701 instrument panels from web and I didn't seen this choke handle any of them? :-) ---------------------------------- http://www.jarikaija.com http://www.project-ch701.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:10 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: wing tank fuel line connection. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <<>> It's either Viton material or it's not,,,nothing in between. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: wing tank fuel line connection. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > Yes Bob, > > I always use Viton type of O rings, but some probably are not "pure and virgin" and they fail, at least get bigger and wont fit once they spend some time in the fuel... > > Now we know the Quick Disconects work, next time I order something from Spruce, will buy 2 or 3 sets, just in case I find some use for them. :-) > > Saludos > Gary Gower > Do not archive. > > > Bob Unternaehrer wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" > > Just replace the o rings with VITRON or VITON, how ever you spell it. > Bob U. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Gower" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 1:04 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: wing tank fuel line connection. > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > > > The problem thar could hapen with the quick disconectors is that they use > a seal (o ring or something) and in certain ocasions some car gasolines > will damage the seals... > > When removing the wing I think is better to complete drain the fuel > remaining in the tanks. then remove the hose with the clamp. I think is > a safer way all around. > > > > Saludos > > Gary Gower. > > Flying from Chapala, Mexico/. > > > > > > > > Edward Moody II wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" > > > > Bruce Bockius > > easy wing removal and reattachment but wing tank are safer. Im uneasy to > the > > idea of a gasoline tank over my feet. You can get wing tanks and do away > > with the header tank on any of the 601 models. > > > > William Dominguez wrote: Yes but, having an HD with wing tanks make more > > difficult the removal and re-attachment of the wing. > > > > Some of you probably can answer this, > > > > What do FAA types and DARs think about the idea of connecting wing tank > fuel > > lines to the fuselage lines/valve using quick disconnect couplings? They > > have the handy feature of shutting off fuel flow/dripping from both sides > of > > the coupling when they are disconnected. At $26.00 per set they are pricey > > but it's worth it to not have fuel running all over the place during > > disassembly or service. I use them on my UL but have never asked if they > are > > considered safe enough for the more complex experimental aircraft. > > > > Ed Moody II > > Rayne LA > > 601XL working on tail > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:47 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Gas Struts & Eyelets --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Thanks Malcolm: This is one of the things I found it's best to order from ZAC. They were reasonably priced and ZAC supplied the eyelets as well. I just called Shirley and told her what I needed and she mailed them to me. I'm not sure what shipping or taxes would cost to the UK, but the price was lower than I expected for these parts. Let me know off-list if the time difference is a problem and I'll call ZAC and get price and shipping to the UK for you. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Plumbing Intake Piping --- Hunt Malcolm wrote: > > Scott > > Your XL is looking good! > Can you advise what you used? > Many thanks in advance and thanks for sharing your > pictures> > Malcolm Hunt > CH601XL Plans builder in England ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welding my tanks From: "steveadams" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" I guess I will be the dissenting opinion in this discussion. While Vans does use the rivet/proseal method, it is not without it's shortcomings. It seems to be the most dreaded part of the build for many builders, and leaky tanks are a problem with this method as well. RV's are designed for this type of tank and they can be removed for servicing if needed. Browse the RV lists and you will see a lot of discussion about the tanks and problems encountered. While I have seen some discussion on this board concerning leaks in welded tanks, the leaks have been discovered for the most part with testing prior to installation. I have not noticed a problem with welds cracking after the airplane has been flying. The zodiac design is for the tank to be within the wing, rather than an intregal part of the wing. Getting to the tank after closing the wing involves opening up the wing skin. Yes it is difficult to properly weld a tank, and requires a skilled and experienced welder to do right. Yes the tanks are a bit deformed looking sometimes. But if done correctly and adequately tested for leaks prior to installation, I believe it is a superior tank for the Zodiac design. Just my opinion. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24758#24758 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:19 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel sender access covers --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Brad: How is the bayonet connector attached to the top of the sender? Maybe you already thought of this, but if it is riveted, can't you just drill out the rivet and put a small screw and nut there? I had to take mine all apart and weld the extension to the face plate because I was getting an intermittent loss of ground. Here's a photo of it welded: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_04_03_Sender2.JPG and here it is ready for installation: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_5_03_SenderParts.JPG If you could drill out the rivet holding the assembly together, you could install a screw and two nuts and use the same kind of connection I used. (One nut holds the assembly together and the other holds the electrical connector.) Just make sure you get all the insulators back in the right order and you should be good to go with a screw and nuts. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_30_04_Wingholes.JPG I hope this helps, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Plumbing intake piping --- Brad Cohen wrote: > I have the new senders with the bayonette connector > (not the old style with a nut that can be filed > down) and now have a similar problem, the connector > now protrudes from the upper surface of the wing > skin. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Welding my tanks From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Mine failed after about 250 hours and had to be removed for re-welding...Not the end of the world but welded tanks do fail. Proseal is not THAT hard to work with having built two RV tanks....Its a bit like fixing a sewer leak....Thinking about it is the worse part...:) Frank HDS 394 hours Do not archive I guess I will be the dissenting opinion in this discussion. While Vans does use the rivet/proseal method, it is not without it's shortcomings. It seems to be the most dreaded part of the build for many builders, and leaky tanks are a problem with this method as well. RV's are designed for this type of tank and they can be removed for servicing if needed. Browse the RV lists and you will see a lot of discussion about the tanks and problems encountered. While I have seen some discussion on this board concerning leaks in welded tanks, the leaks have been discovered for the most part with testing prior to installation. I have not noticed a problem with welds cracking after the airplane has been flying. The zodiac design is for the tank to be within the wing, rather than an intregal part of the wing. Getting to the tank after closing the wing involves opening up the wing skin. Yes it is difficult to properly weld a tank, and requires a skilled and experienced welder to do right.! Yes the tanks are a bit deformed looking sometimes. But if done correctly and adequately tested for leaks prior to installation, I believe it is a superior tank for the Zodiac design. Just my opinion. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24758#24758 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:16 AM PST US From: Subject: Re:Zenith-List: 912A Choke... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hello Jari. I agree that you definetly need the choke for starting the Rotax 912UL engine. Take a look at my site under Zenith and then panel. http://www.gi.is/fis/ You will see the choke lever on left of the left throttle. Regards, Johann G Iceland. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:29 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: VDO fuel tank senders From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hi Guys can someone tell me what the model of the sender that ZAC uses is for the VDO fuek guage. The closest one on eguages looks to be 226-001 10 to 180ohms. Can anyone confirm this?...My sensder is still dead from when I filled the tank with water to find the leaks after the welded flange cracked some 4 years ago...:) Thanks Frank ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" I for one would be cautious about experimenting too much with the fuel system plumbing. When you read the NTSB accident reports for the 601's most of the cases of forced landings due to loss of power seem to be likely caused by fuel starvation. Regarding forced landings.... My first flight instructor learned to fly during WWII. He told me they were taught that if landing in wooded terrain to try to fly between two trees. The idea was to slow the airplane down and rip the wings (and the fuel tanks) off to reduce the danger to the pilot. One of the guys in his class of cadets was washed out when he destroyed his PT19 doing exactly that. The problem was, he was flying over an area of wide, flat grassland and when the engine quit he maneuvered the plane to put it between the only two trees for miles :-) Tim -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24785#24785 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801801801801 From: Larry Landucci --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry Landucci The cost of the new Lycoming O-360 and Firewall Forward kit (from Zenith) are listed on the Zenith website and are not much different from what I paid about 3 yrs ago. Also, I added a few misc items that were not included, such as an oil/air separator (reduces oil blow-by considerably), CHT probes for all 4 cylinders, and a primer system. The prop that Zenith provided was a fixed pitch metal prop. According to the designer's (Chris Heinz) comments at one of the Oshkosh seminars, a constant speed prop on an airplane as slow as the 801 (110 mph cruise) does not significantly improve the performance and is not worth the extra cost and complication. In my limited experience in flying my 801 so far, I can not imagine why I would need more takeoff performance--once it starts rolling it is difficult to keep it on the ground. I can personally attest to this since my first high-speed taxi test resulted in my first flight. I rarely use the flaps as they are simply not needed on a hard-surface airport that is more than a few hundred feet long. Sorry for the diversion from the initial question about cost--you can tell how much fun I am having. Larry Landucci -- N801LL ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:37 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" If someone have Oil tank for rotax 912 series from crashed plane, or.... I really want to buy it with reasonable price. New Oil tank costs in Finland about 700 euros (800$) from our Rotax service. I also asked price from Czech factory, but it didn't came, yet. ---------------------------------- http://www.jarikaija.com http://www.project-ch701.net ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:04 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I would suspect most fuel starvation is caused by three factors... 1) Running out by trying to stretch range. 2) Poor venting or running vent to tubes to a low pressure area on the airframe 3) Vapour lock through not understanding the physics of this deadly phenominom (sp?) I doubt the choice of fuel line represents a big risk area but your point about experimenting is well taken. Please read the extensive list of emails about fuel system design on this forum to understand the physics of pumping a high vapour pressure liquid...namely fuel, especially autofuel. Regards Frank 601 HDS 394 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:49 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" I for one would be cautious about experimenting too much with the fuel system plumbing. When you read the NTSB accident reports for the 601's most of the cases of forced landings due to loss of power seem to be likely caused by fuel starvation. Regarding forced landings.... My first flight instructor learned to fly during WWII. He told me they were taught that if landing in wooded terrain to try to fly between two trees. The idea was to slow the airplane down and rip the wings (and the fuel tanks) off to reduce the danger to the pilot. One of the guys in his class of cadets was washed out when he destroyed his PT19 doing exactly that. The problem was, he was flying over an area of wide, flat grassland and when the engine quit he maneuvered the plane to put it between the only two trees for miles :-) Tim -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24785#24785 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:04 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Woah!....Wouldn't it be worth buying some sheet aluminium and having welded up locally at this price? Frank 601HDS Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jari Kaija Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" If someone have Oil tank for rotax 912 series from crashed plane, or.... I really want to buy it with reasonable price. New Oil tank costs in Finland about 700 euros (800$) from our Rotax service. I also asked price from Czech factory, but it didn't came, yet. ---------------------------------- http://www.jarikaija.com http://www.project-ch701.net ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:17 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Welding my tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" I would tend to agree with the conclusion below. When at the Zenair workshop I watched the young lady they had welding their tanks and saw the quality of her output and was Impressed. So many times in discussions like this we take Part A and apply it to aircraft B and expect it to work and it doesn't. I think that's really what the conclusion below is all about also. Now IF I had to weld the tanks, and for that matter, design the tanks the clear choice would be PRO SEAL, but that's not the case here. My welding and design abilities are not in the same league as Zenith. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "steveadams" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:37 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welding my tanks > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" > > I guess I will be the dissenting opinion in this discussion. While Vans does use the rivet/proseal method, it is not without it's shortcomings. It seems to be the most dreaded part of the build for many builders, and leaky tanks are a problem with this method as well. RV's are designed for this type of tank and they can be removed for servicing if needed. Browse the RV lists and you will see a lot of discussion about the tanks and problems encountered. While I have seen some discussion on this board concerning leaks in welded tanks, the leaks have been discovered for the most part with testing prior to installation. I have not noticed a problem with welds cracking after the airplane has been flying. The zodiac design is for the tank to be within the wing, rather than an intregal part of the wing. Getting to the tank after closing the wing involves opening up the wing skin. Yes it is difficult to properly weld a tank, and requires a skilled and experienced welder to do right.! > Yes the tanks are a bit deformed looking sometimes. But if done correctly and adequately tested for leaks prior to installation, I believe it is a superior tank for the Zodiac design. Just my opinion. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24758#24758 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:58 AM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" Rotax oil tanks are a bit more than just a tank... there's a screen assembly that 'defoams' the incoming oil foam and a pickup tube that draws the 'cleansed' oil for return to the engine. STILL way overpriced, but more than a tank! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:29 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > Woah!....Wouldn't it be worth buying some sheet aluminium and having > welded up locally at this price? > > Frank > 601HDS > Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:28 AM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VDO fuel tank senders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" Hi, Frank. I can't get to my paperwork, but "1 551 004 257A" is stamped on the flange of the VDO senders I'm using on the wing tanks of my 601HD. Hope this helps. Bill > Hi Guys can someone tell me what the model of the sender that ZAC uses > is for the VDO fuek guage. > > The closest one on eguages looks to be 226-001 10 to 180ohms. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:12 AM PST US From: Mike Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel sender access covers --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike > I do recall one person saying that he scratch built a domed > cover for his senders. If you get an answer on that, I would like to know as well. I have the same problem, but haven't tackled it yet (low on the priority list). Filing down the terminal didn't work for me, nor any of the other tricks previously mentioned, so I will also need some sort of domed covers. do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:38 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" Frank, I would agree with you on all points. You can be assured that I'm paying close attention to this issue since constructing a low wing airplane will be a new one for me. I have instructed in a number of them but all my personal aircraft have (and are) high wing so gravity does my work for me. Reviewing the NTSB reports on the 601, most of the engine stoppages did not appear to be the result of no or low fuel or mechanical failure, thus my interest. As far as your other comments: Lack of proper venting is a real concern and has contributed to a number of accidents. Mud dauber wasps have been known to bring airplanes down by packing mud in the vents which the pilot did not catch on preflight. We also had a fellow with an old airplane who installed his ram air vented caps backwards and wondered why he had problems with fuel flow.[Rolling Eyes] Vapor lock is something I've never experienced in 30 + years of flying but I did teach power recovery methods for it in Cessnas. I wonder if with more people using mogas it has become a greater problem? I appreciate the wisdom and comments of those like you who have had more experience with the 601 type. With 394 hours on your aircraft you obviously must have done things right :-) Tim -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24818#24818 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Well of course vapour lock has four components. 1) Sucking on fuel..up hill or through restrictions 2) Higher vapour pressure fuel (namely mogas) 3) Heating the fuel (hot day plus a mechanical fuel pump on a hot engine) 4) Altitude. Item 3 is not that big of a deal in a 601 because it doesn't usually fly that high. On an RV at 20,000ft this can be a real issue with fuel literally boiling in the gas tank! Items 1,2 and 3 can however easily collide on an unsuspecting builder and there are documented (of course the evidence dissapperas by the time of the accident investigation) cases of crashes. My fear is that folks think they are safe because they sort of copy what "Real airplanes do"...But of course a Certified ship is using the same fuel system as all airplanes were when the earth's crust was still soft..In other words nobody in their right mind would trust an electric pump (even two redundant pumps) back when Lycoming first certified its fuel system. To get around a rather poor system they use 100LL with a lower VP and cool the pump with a blast tube. The boost pump is intended to be a backup in the low wing configuration from what I can see. While this marginal system works with 100LL it may not work with mogas and as electric pumps are probably as reliable as mechanical ones these days...Well there are just better ways of doing things. Incidently..My FI RV (yet to fly) has an electric punp in each wing root and no mechanical pump..The only dissadvantage I see is what happens if struck by lightening? Cheers Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:02 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" Frank, I would agree with you on all points. You can be assured that I'm paying close attention to this issue since constructing a low wing airplane will be a new one for me. I have instructed in a number of them but all my personal aircraft have (and are) high wing so gravity does my work for me. Reviewing the NTSB reports on the 601, most of the engine stoppages did not appear to be the result of no or low fuel or mechanical failure, thus my interest. As far as your other comments: Lack of proper venting is a real concern and has contributed to a number of accidents. Mud dauber wasps have been known to bring airplanes down by packing mud in the vents which the pilot did not catch on preflight. We also had a fellow with an old airplane who installed his ram air vented caps backwards and wondered why he had problems with fuel flow.[Rolling Eyes] Vapor lock is something I've never experienced in 30 + years of flying but I did teach power recovery methods for it in Cessnas. I wonder if with more people using mogas it has become a greater problem? I appreciate the wisdom and comments of those like you who have had more experience with the 601 type. With 394 hours on your aircraft you obviously must have done things right :-) Tim -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Ooops...i meant iten #4 is not that big of deal. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:26 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: wing tank fuel line connection.. (probably not related) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Well of course vapour lock has four components. 1) Sucking on fuel..up hill or through restrictions 2) Higher vapour pressure fuel (namely mogas) 3) Heating the fuel (hot day plus a mechanical fuel pump on a hot engine) 4) Altitude. Item 3 is not that big of a deal in a 601 because it doesn't usually fly that high. On an RV at 20,000ft this can be a real issue with fuel literally boiling in the gas tank! Items 1,2 and 3 can however easily collide on an unsuspecting builder and there are documented (of course the evidence dissapperas by the time of the accident investigation) cases of crashes. My fear is that folks think they are safe because they sort of copy what "Real airplanes do"...But of course a Certified ship is using the same fuel system as all airplanes were when the earth's crust was still soft..In other words nobody in their right mind would trust an electric pump (even two redundant pumps) back when Lycoming first certified its fuel system. To get around a rather poor system they use 100LL with a lower VP and cool the pump with a blast tube. The boost pump is intended to be a backup in the low wing configuration from what I can see. While this marginal system works with 100LL it may not work with mogas and as electric pumps are probably as reliable as mechanical ones these days...Well there are just better ways of doing things. Incidently..My FI RV (yet to fly) has an electric punp in each wing root and no mechanical pump..The only dissadvantage I see is what happens if struck by lightening? Cheers Frank - ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:15 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel sender access covers --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> I too have been puzzling over this for some time. Unless someone comes up with a better idea, my plan is to use standard aluminum Inspection Plates (ACS #09-19300). They are 5" in diameter and the center of the dome rises about 8mm, so they should just fit with the metal spring clip removed. Also, on my four tanks, not only do the senders protrude above the top skin, but when the filler cap receptacles are screwed in they seat in the tank before fully contacting the skin leaving a slight gap. Have any of you also noticed this, and have a fix for it (some sort of rubber gaskety ring or something to take up the slack)? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel sender access covers > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike > >> I do recall one person saying that he scratch built a domed >> cover for his senders. > > If you get an answer on that, I would like to know as well. I have the > same problem, but haven't tackled it yet (low on the priority list). > Filing down the terminal didn't work for me, nor any of the other tricks > previously mentioned, so I will also need some sort of domed covers. > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welding my tanks From: "steveadams" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" frank.hinde(at)hp.com wrote: > Mine failed after about 250 hours and had to be removed for > re-welding...Not the end of the world but welded tanks do fail. > > Proseal is not THAT hard to work with having built two RV tanks....Its a > bit like fixing a sewer leak....Thinking about it is the worse part...:) > > Frank > > HDS 394 hours > > Do not archive > > True, they do occasionally fail. However, look how often the prosealed tanks get a weeping rivet or two. Not a problem if the rivet is staring you in the face. There are ways to drill out the offending rivet and seal the leak without even having to pull the tank. In a Zodiac that is not an option, you either live with the leak (not a good option) or open up the skin and fix the tank (also not such a good option). I'm not saying that the RV is not a good design, just that you really can't build a Zodiac the same as an RV any more than you can build an RV just like a Zodiac. CH didn't include welded tanks in his design because it is easier or cheaper for them to manufacture, so in my mind there must be a good reason. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24830#24830 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Ready to start project From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" Falcon has shown a willingness to cover 601XLs with a William Wynne built Corvair engine on first flight. Something to think about. jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com wrote: > --- "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > wrote: > > I only talked to Avemco so far. They carry my renters > insurance and are a direct writer, not broker. They do > not yet insure the Sonex, but do insure the 601. > Alternative engines raise the rate, but they will > insure them. I need to talk to a broker as well. > -------- W.R. Gig Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24835#24835 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:26 PM PST US From: "Weston Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Notes from Rudder Workshop --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston Walker" Al, I'm a CFI with 185 hours in my 601XL. However, I too face insurance hurdles. I'm a new CFI. The first thing after getting my CFI ticket last summer was to contact my insurance agent (EAA Falcon) about using my experimental amateur built 601XL for transition/familiarization training using the EAA exemption that allows training in an amateur built for the purpose of preparing pilot/builders for flying their new aircraft. They said great, no problem; until they found out I'm a new CFI. They want me to have 100 hours instruction given before I can give transition training in my 601XL. However, I moved a few weeks after getting my CFI; at the new location I have not had time to make connections with a new flight school or FBO that needs a part-time CFI. So I'm still a 0 hour CFI. If you, or anyone, wants to come to Denver, and you have your own plane (since the insurance company won't let me instruct in mine), then I would be happy to help. One more example of who really regulates general aviation in the US: the insurance companies. Weston Walker 601XL/Jabiru 3300 Based at 48V Time: 11:27:53 AM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Notes from Rudder Workshop --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" Stanley- You are not a CFI with more than 25 hrs in a 601 are you? (Re using the 701 for training.) I need such a person. My insurance co wants me to get 5 addl hours in a XL with a CFI that has more than 25 hrs in type. Jim Pallien in VA is the only one that qualifies and that too far away for me. Al Young 601XL ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:14 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 oil tank to sell.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" Stainless steel too -----Original Message----- --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" Rotax oil tanks are a bit more than just a tank... there's a screen assembly that 'defoams' the incoming oil foam and a pickup tube that draws the 'cleansed' oil for return to the engine. STILL way overpriced, but more than a tank! ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: fuel sender access covers From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" I'm confused.... I haven't received my kit yet, but a look at the drawings (dated 8/05) show the sender for the tank installed on the inboard end, not the top. Can someone explain things to a newbie? Tim -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24854#24854 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:35 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: fuel sender access covers --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Older plans showed installation in the top. Apparently rather than change the tank design to make them fit on top, they revised the plans to put them in the ends of the tank. I considered putting them in the end to avoid the bulges on top of the wing, but decided to go with the top access so they would be easier to service. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Juhl" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 3:45 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: fuel sender access covers > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" > > I'm confused.... I haven't received my kit yet, but a look at the > drawings (dated 8/05) show the sender for the tank installed on the > inboard end, not the top. Can someone explain things to a newbie? > > Tim > > -------- > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - awaiting kit > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24854#24854 > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:27 PM PST US From: nyterminat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engines for the 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: nyterminat@aol.com 20 extra horse. A must if you plan on floats, not need on wheels -----Original Message----- From: Chris Harding Sent: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:57:43 -0800 Subject: Zenith-List: Engines for the 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Harding" Can anyone comment on the pros and cons of the 80 h.p. Rotax 912 versus the 100 h.p. 912S for the 701? Thanks in advance, Chris Harding Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24735#24735 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:34 PM PST US From: nyterminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VDO fuel tank senders --> Zenith-List message posted by: nyterminat@aol.com You should check what your gauge requires. Zenith used tow different ones, 10-170 1nd 10- 70 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Steer Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:00:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VDO fuel tank senders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" Hi, Frank. I can't get to my paperwork, but "1 551 004 257A" is stamped on the flange of the VDO senders I'm using on the wing tanks of my 601HD. Hope this helps. Bill > Hi Guys can someone tell me what the model of the sender that ZAC uses > is for the VDO fuek guage. > > The closest one on eguages looks to be 226-001 10 to 180ohms. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:34 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engines for the 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Marzulli" If your going for floats or thinking about doing high altitude bush flying then the 914 is also an option. Jabiru also makes a FWF kit for their 3300. On 3/28/06, nyterminat@aol.com wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: nyterminat@aol.com > > 20 extra horse. A must if you plan on floats, not need on wheels > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Harding > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:57:43 -0800 > Subject: Zenith-List: Engines for the 701 > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Harding" < > charding@houston.rr.com> > > Can anyone comment on the pros and cons of the 80 h.p. Rotax 912 versus > the 100 > h.p. 912S for the 701? > > Thanks in advance, > Chris Harding > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D24735#24735 > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:54 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel sender placement --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith Gents, My as yet unfinished 701 kit is five years old ("Yes, you can build one in only one weekend" with a lot of help). At the time the "D-tank" was the standard and wing tanks, ten gallons each, were an option. What I ran in to is that the sender, when mounted atop the tank, is taller than the top skin. There are probably some who opted to end-mount their senders for this very reason. After much handwringing I decided to top-mount for future access, and the fact that maybe it will leak less mounted on top. The solution to the obvious "bulge" was to cut a hole in the top skin slightly larger than the sender then cover the hole with a "domed" cover and A4 rivets. Yes, there is a "bubble" in one small area on top of the wing. However, since I'll rarely exceed 0.5 Mach, and considering all the other draggy stuff hanging out there, not to worry. The local farm store had nice stainless steel food dishes for house pets that had a flat, smooth, well finished lip, just right for the A4 rivets. Whatever turns your crank, but it works just fine. Two small holes properly placed allow for "zero" and "span" adjustments of the capacitive sender. do not archive patent pending Zed/701/R912/etc/etc/..... ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:50 PM PST US From: "Brad Cohen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel sender placement --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brad Cohen" Zed, have not yet tried a food dish, but that seems logical, Iwill try Petsmart tonight! ----- Original Message ----- From: Zed Smith To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:59 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel sender placement --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith > Gents, My as yet unfinished 701 kit is five years old ("Yes, you can build one in only one weekend" with a lot of help). At the time the "D-tank" was the standard and wing tanks, ten gallons each, were an option. What I ran in to is that the sender, when mounted atop the tank, is taller than the top skin. There are probably some who opted to end-mount their senders for this very reason. After much handwringing I decided to top-mount for future access, and the fact that maybe it will leak less mounted on top. The solution to the obvious "bulge" was to cut a hole in the top skin slightly larger than the sender then cover the hole with a "domed" cover and A4 rivets. Yes, there is a "bubble" in one small area on top of the wing. However, since I'll rarely exceed 0.5 Mach, and considering all the other draggy stuff hanging out there, not to worry. The local farm store had nice stainless steel food dishes for house pets that had a flat, smooth, well finished lip, just right for the A4 rivets. Whatever turns your crank, but it works just fine. Two small holes properly placed allow for "zero" and "span" adjustments of the capacitive sender. do not archive patent pending Zed/701/R912/etc/etc/..... ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:50 PM PST US From: "Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 bolts, nuts, s.l. nuts, washers, screws, rod and,....... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito" Hi Robert Sceppa, I'm building two planes and I have two serial numbers. Zodiac XL 601 (all with flush rivet) Jab 3300 is "6096" and CH 701 Jab 2200 is "6342". If you have and want to help me, I'll thanks. Because I have a lot difficulty in my country to find this variety of parts, and I'd like to buy in Sun'N Fun/2006. Excuse me of my English. Thanks a lot, Roberto Brito. S=E3o Paulo-Brazil Zodiac XL 601 Jab 3300 70% " all with flush rivet'' CH 701 Jab 2200 to begin with ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:32 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Ready to start project --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Gig- Is a Jab considered an "Alternative engine"? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 2:49 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Ready to start project > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > > Falcon has shown a willingness to cover 601XLs with a William Wynne built > Corvair engine on first flight. Something to think about. > > > jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com wrote: >> --- "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" >> wrote: >> >> I only talked to Avemco so far. They carry my renters >> insurance and are a direct writer, not broker. They do >> not yet insure the Sonex, but do insure the 601. >> Alternative engines raise the rate, but they will >> insure them. I need to talk to a broker as well. >> > > > -------- > W.R. Gig Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24835#24835 > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:38 PM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Notes from Rudder Workshop --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" Weston- My XL isn't back together yet. So I'd need to go with you. I'd be glad to have you instruct me, but I understand about your insurance problem. What a visious circle. If you don't mind, I'll keep your offer in mind and maybe I could come to Denver and take you up on it. I would be glad to sign a liability waiver. My brother lives in Denver and I can fly there free on a pass, so I'll contact you later after I hear from my insurance co. Regards, Al Young Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Weston Walker" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Notes from Rudder Workshop > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston Walker" > > > Al, > > > I'm a CFI with 185 hours in my 601XL. However, I too face insurance > hurdles. > > > I'm a new CFI. The first thing after getting my CFI ticket last summer was > to contact my insurance agent (EAA Falcon) about using my experimental > amateur built 601XL for transition/familiarization training using the EAA > exemption that allows training in an amateur built for the purpose of > preparing pilot/builders for flying their new aircraft. They said great, > no > problem; until they found out I'm a new CFI. They want me to have 100 > hours > instruction given before I can give transition training in my 601XL. > However, I moved a few weeks after getting my CFI; at the new location I > have not had time to make connections with a new flight school or FBO that > needs a part-time CFI. So I'm still a 0 hour CFI. > > > If you, or anyone, wants to come to Denver, and you have your own plane > (since the insurance company won't let me instruct in mine), then I would > be > happy to help. > > > One more example of who really regulates general aviation in the US: the > insurance companies. > > > Weston Walker > > 601XL/Jabiru 3300 > > Based at 48V > > > Time: 11:27:53 AM PST US > > From: "Al Young" > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Notes from Rudder Workshop > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" > > > Stanley- You are not a CFI with more than 25 hrs in a 601 are you? (Re > > using the 701 for training.) I need such a person. My insurance co wants > > me to get 5 addl hours in a XL with a CFI that has more than 25 hrs in > type. > > > Jim Pallien in VA is the only one that qualifies and that too far away for > > me. > > Al Young > > 601XL > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:17 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801801801801 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" The cost of the new Lycoming O-360 and Firewall Forward kit (from Zenith) are listed on the Zenith website and are not much different from what I paid about 3 yrs ago. Also, I added a few misc items that were not included, such as an oil/air separator (reduces oil blow-by considerably), CHT probes for all 4 cylinders, and a primer system. The prop that Zenith provided was a fixed pitch metal prop. According to the designer's (Chris Heinz) comments at one of the Oshkosh seminars, a constant speed prop on an airplane as slow as the 801 (110 mph cruise) does not significantly improve the performance and is not worth the extra cost and complication. In my limited experience in flying my 801 so far, I can not imagine why I would need more takeoff performance--once it starts rolling it is difficult to keep it on the ground. I can personally attest to this since my first high-speed taxi test resulted in my first flight. I rarely use the flaps as they are simply not needed on a hard-surface airport that is more than a few hundred feet long. Sorry for the diversion from the initial question about cost--you can tell how much fun I am having. Larry Landucci -- N801LL ///////////////////////////////////////////////// We would still like to see the actual price. I added it up once while I was building my 801 and it came to over $ 30,000 with everything needed to get it in the air. That's 1 1/2 times the cost of the kit. I had a hard time swallowing the fact that the first 30 inches of my 801 was going to cost more than the last 27 feet. Also now there is a AD on Lycoming crankshafts that will cost the owner alot more money. If I were going to go the aircooled route I would pick the Lyc 180 hp clone that uses Roller lifter technology. Just my opinion and of course,,, do not archive. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com The cost of the new Lycoming O-360 and Firewall Forward kit (from Zenith) are listed on the Zenith website and are not much different from what I paid about 3 yrs ago. Also, I added a few misc items that were not included, such as an oil/air separator (reduces oil blow-by considerably), CHT probes for all 4 cylinders, and a primer system. The prop that Zenith provided was a fixed pitch metal prop. According to the designer's (Chris Heinz) comments at one of the Oshkosh seminars, a constant speed prop on an airplane as slow as the 801 (110 mph cruise) does not significantly improve the performance and is not worth the extra cost and complication. In my limited experience in flying my 801 so far, I can not imagine why I would need more takeoff performance--once it starts rolling it is difficult to keep it on the ground. I can personally attest to this since my first high-speed taxi test resulted in my first flight. I rarely use the flaps as they are simply not needed on a hard-surface airport that is more than a few hundred feet long. Sorry for the diversion from the initial question about cost--you can tell how much fun I am having. Larry Landucci -- N801LL ///////////////////////////////////////////////// We would still like to see the actual price. I added it up once while I was building my 801 and it came to over $ 30,000 with everything needed to get it in the air. That's 1 1/2 times the cost of the kit. I had a hard time swallowing the fact that the first 30 inchesof my 801 was going to cost more than the last 27 feet. Also now there is a AD on Lycoming crankshafts that will cost the owner alot more money. IfI were going to go theaircooled route I would pick the Lyc 180 hp clone that uses Roller lifter technology. Just my opinion and of course,,, do not archive. BenHaas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:37 PM PST US From: Christian Tremblay Subject: Zenith-List: Builder of an CH640 from plan --> Zenith-List message posted by: Christian Tremblay Hi, I want to know who is building a CH640. I build from plan and I want to exchange informations and tricks with other CH640 builder. My rudder and mostly of the part of the tail wing are nearly completed. My website is located at : http://www.zodiac640.com Many photographies of my installation including a steel bending breake and press for ribs holes (home made). Thanks. Christian Tremblay