---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/07/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:37 AM - 406 Mhz PLB (neitzel) 2. 12:49 PM - Re: 406 Mhz PLB (Dave) 3. 02:44 PM - Re: 406 Mhz PLB (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 03:18 PM - Minimum Edge Distance (Dave VanLanen) 5. 03:50 PM - Re: Minimum Edge Distance () 6. 04:39 PM - Re: Minimum Edge Distance (Edward Moody II) 7. 05:15 PM - Re: Minimum Edge Distance (Dave Austin) 8. 05:51 PM - Re: Minimum Edge Distance (Edward Moody II) 9. 07:25 PM - Trimming messages (Richard A Hartwig) 10. 08:00 PM - Minimum edge distance (George Swinford) 11. 08:16 PM - Re: 406 Mhz PLB (Craig Payne) 12. 08:25 PM - Re: Trimming messages (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 13. 09:38 PM - Domed rivets-response to Christian Trembley (George Swinford) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:14 AM PST US From: "neitzel" Subject: Zenith-List: 406 Mhz PLB --> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" Greetings all, Some time ago there was a discussion about the requirement for the new 406 Mhz PLB. I went to an FAA site and after wading through countless pages knew less than when I started. It appeared that it was going to be an ICAO requirement only, which would mean the 121.5/243.0 would still be monitored in the US. I was on the Aviation Digital Data Service site today and they were able to say in one sentence what took the FAA hundreds of pages to say (and left me clueless). Apparently the current ELT system will shut down on 2/1/09. There after only the 406 Mhz PLB will be monitored. If anyone wants to get the understandable explanation of this new system, go to ADDS and you will see on the opening page the links to get the correct information. I'm glad I ran into this info as I can now return the Ameri-King ELT, that I just bought, and get a full refund towards the purchase price of the more expensive 406 Mhz unit. I would put the ADDS address here but it is about a foot long. If you don't already have ADDS in your favorite list, use any search engine and type in ADDS. Aviation Digital Data Service will be one of the first to come up. There is also an wealth of weather data available on this site. Dick Neitzel Sayner, WI 701 Jabiru 2200 About 70% Hope to be on the gear by end of week end. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:39 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 406 Mhz PLB --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" not really, the ELT info is on the first page http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/ - Dave ...........I would put the ADDS address here but it is about a foot long. If you don't already have ADDS in your favorite list, use any search engine and type in ADDS. Aviation Digital Data Service will be one of the first to come up. There is also an wealth of weather data available on this site. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:41 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 406 Mhz PLB --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I found the new ELT information here: http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/ do not archive Paul XL wings At 12:41 PM 4/7/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" > >not really, the ELT info is on the first page >http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/ --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:39 PM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith-List: Minimum Edge Distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" Recently I e-mailed some questions to Nick regarding edge distances. In his response, he included a pdf file labeled CS #101. Based on his e-mail, it sounds like this may be an excerpt from a complete construction manual that will be coming out later in the summer. Anyway, when I looked at this page it showed the minimum edge distance formula as 1.5d. In the material we received at our workshop, the minimum edge distance formula was represented as 2d. I asked Nick in a follow-up e-mail which formula was correct, and he responded that 1.5d is correct. Can anyone shed any additonal light on this discrepancy for me? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI 601XL ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:48 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Minimum Edge Distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: According to my old copy of 43.13 Para 99d(1) calls for edge distance of not less than 2D, and spacing of not less than 3D. They may have changed it since 1972. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave VanLanen" Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Minimum Edge Distance > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > > Recently I e-mailed some questions to Nick regarding edge distances. In his > response, he included a pdf file labeled CS #101. Based on his e-mail, it > sounds like this may be an excerpt from a complete construction manual that > will be coming out later in the summer. Anyway, when I looked at this page > it showed the minimum edge distance formula as 1.5d. In the material we > received at our workshop, the minimum edge distance formula was represented > as 2d. I asked Nick in a follow-up e-mail which formula was correct, and he > responded that 1.5d is correct. Can anyone shed any additonal light on this > discrepancy for me? > > Thanks, > Dave Van Lanen > Madison, WI > 601XL > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:53 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Minimum Edge Distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Hi Dave, Not sure what's up with this but my information received with the rudder and again with the complete kit (arrived here 15MAR06 so I think it was current) is that the ideal edge distance is three times the hole diameter. In other words, for a 1/8" rivet: 1/8" equals 0.125" which multiplied times 3 equals 0.375" . Multiply that by 25.4 mm per inch to get an ideal edge distance of 9.525 mm . That's why we were instructed to use 10.0 mm for the rivet line where it was feasible. In a tight area, we were told that 7.5 mm was adequate: in other words, about 2.5 x the diameter is the minimum edge distance. I have no idea why they would suddenly switch to a guideline of 1.5 x d . You might want to review this with and ask why it has changed because this does indeed represent a significant recent change in technique. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL working on tail Rudder workshop (8-9DEC05 still fresh in memory) Subject: Zenith-List: Minimum Edge Distance > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > > > Recently I e-mailed some questions to Nick regarding edge distances. In > his > response, he included a pdf file labeled CS #101. Based on his e-mail, it > sounds like this may be an excerpt from a complete construction manual > that > will be coming out later in the summer. Anyway, when I looked at this > page > it showed the minimum edge distance formula as 1.5d. In the material we > received at our workshop, the minimum edge distance formula was > represented > as 2d. I asked Nick in a follow-up e-mail which formula was correct, and > he > responded that 1.5d is correct. Can anyone shed any additonal light on > this > discrepancy for me? > > Thanks, > Dave Van Lanen > Madison, WI > 601XL ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:23 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Minimum Edge Distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Is think that the 1.5 times diameter is from the edge of the hole, the 2 x diameter is from the centre of the hole. That's been my understanding for both my a/c. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:54 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Minimum Edge Distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Measuring from the edge of the hole is not very useful in the construction process unless you want to draw the line, then guess where to spot the drill bit tip to have the edge touch the line. Distance from the edge of the hole sounds like the stuff a DAR might use to evaluate the quality of the construction. While building, it is more appropriate to work on the line which translates to distance from the center of the hole to the edge. That's how my instructions were written and it makes sense from the builder's prospective. Ed Moody II > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" > > Is think that the 1.5 times diameter is from the edge of the hole, the 2 x > diameter is from the centre of the hole. That's been my understanding for > both my a/c. > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Trimming messages From: Richard A Hartwig --> Zenith-List message posted by: Richard A Hartwig PLEASE...please think before you hit the "Reply" when responding to something on the Zenith List. Yesterday a couple of people resent the whole digest from the day before. This makes the Digest very difficult to read and also fills up the archives with useless repeats. Matronics etiquette says to trim down the message you are replying to...leave only what is necessary for understanding. Dick H rhartwig11@juno.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:40 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Minimum edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" Way back in the cold war days, when I was designing sheet metal structure at McDonnell Aircraft, the standard edge distance was 2D plus .06 inch (.31 inch for a 1/8 rivet, just under 8mm). If we didn't put a dimension on the rivet pattern, that edge distance was assumed and gave the mechanics some leeway in locating the hole. 2D was adequate distance, but we had to show that dimension on the drawing. In many cases, the stress analysts would approve 1.5D. These were the standards used on the F4 and F101 fighters. These edge distances were for solid (bucked) rivets, not pulled rivets such as the Avex rivets we are using. Usually the designer tries to balance the shear strength of the fastener with the shear tearout strength of the sheet, but other factors sometimes enter in. Avex rivets have a lower shear strength than solid AN rivets, and 6061-T6 is not as strong as the 2024-T3 used for those military airplanes. For my own 601, I am assuming that 2D is adequate. George Swinford ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:13 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 406 Mhz PLB --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" The cheapest 406 MHz unit I know of is the Artex ME406 (http://www.artex.net/me406.html), under $1000. If you find yourself faced with posting a very long web address (URL) use http://tinyurl.com to create a short equivalent. The tinyURL for the link above is http://tinyurl.com/nwjoa. Not a very impressive demo but it will create an equally short address for ones hundreds or thousands of characters long. BTW "PLB" is a misnomer for an ELT. A Personal Locator Beacon is typically a portable, hand-held device (also on 406 MHz) and generally cheaper than a 406 MHz aircraft ELT. You can get one including an internal GPS for around $800 (I'm ignoring the units intended for marine use). The down-side is that they have to be manually activated. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:52 PM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trimming messages --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com <<<< Matronics etiquette says to trim down the message you are replying to...leave only what is necessary for understanding.>>>> Amen!!!!!! Dave ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:46 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Domed rivets-response to Christian Trembley --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" Christian: I believe Chris H. answered this question some time ago, but I can't remember where I saw the answer. Perhaps someone else on the list remembers. I have no knowlege on this subject, except that Chris has tested the strength of Avex rivets formed this way, and recommends it. George Do not archive