Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:17 AM - Re: Does anyone have pictures from Sun-N-Fun? (Jean-Paul Roy)
2. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: Smiles. now aircraft spruce (ron dewees)
3. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: Domed rivets-response to Christian Trembley (ron dewees)
4. 12:40 PM - Flap actuator travel (Craig Payne)
5. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Domed rivets-response to Christian Trembley (John)
6. 03:49 PM - Re: Flap actuator travel (Jack Russell)
7. 04:24 PM - Re: Flap actuator travel (george may)
8. 04:43 PM - Access panel and wing lockers... (Allen Ricks)
9. 05:43 PM - Re: Access panel and wing lockers... (LarryMcFarland)
10. 06:11 PM - Re: Access panel and wing lockers... (Doug Eatman)
11. 06:11 PM - Re: Access panel and wing lockers... (William Dominguez)
12. 06:18 PM - Re: Access panel and wing lockers... (Bill Naumuk)
13. 06:55 PM - Re: Access panel and wing lockers... (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
14. 07:19 PM - Re: Access panel and wing lockers... (Paul Mulwitz)
15. 07:36 PM - Re: Access panel and wing lockers... (Robert Schoenberger)
16. 08:46 PM - Re: Access panel and wing lockers... (Jeff Davidson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Does anyone have pictures from Sun-N-Fun? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" <jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca>
Thanks Trevor for posting them.
Jean-Paul Roy
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trevor Page" <webmaster@upac.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Does anyone have pictures from Sun-N-Fun?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca>
>
> John, I don't have many but a few are on mine here:
>
> http://pagefamily.homeunix.org/picture_album/
>
>
> Trev Page
> C-IDUS 601HD R912
>
>
> On Apr 11, 2006, at 7:19 AM, John Hines wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines"
> > <John.Hines@craftontull.com>
> >
> > Does anyone have pictures from Sun-N-Fun posted on their web site yet?
> >
> > John Hines
> > www.johnsplane.com
> >
> >
> > John Hines
> > IT Manager
> > Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
> > 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
> > Rogers, AR 72756
> > Direct: 479-878-2449
> > Mobile: 479-366-4783
> > Phone: 479-636-4838
> > Fax: 479-631-6224
> > John.Hines@craftontull.com
> >
> > Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and
> > understand the needs of our clients and provide them with
> > successful solutions.
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
> > they are addressed.. If you have received this email in error
> > please notify the system manager. This message contains
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> > named. If you are not the named addressee you should not
> > disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the
> > sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by
> > mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the
> > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
> > distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of
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> >
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Smiles. now aircraft spruce |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
I know these anticdotes could easily get out of hand but I havestrong
opinions about ACS (Georgia). I live about 35 miles from ACS in
Georgia and naturally drive there for large orders. I've gotten to know
the parts manager, Tim, who is a great help and has a wonderful sense of
humor. Last year I took a gas tank there to look for a cap for it. I
forgot it and he called me up and made a trip to town to return it to
me. They will have to raise prices a LOT before I switch from that kind
of service.
Just my opinion..
Ron
do not archive
David X wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>
>Also no problem with ACS. I've sometimes forgot some item or other in a previous
order and will put in a second order with a note to try to ship them together.
They did. Packaging is good, delivery speed is good. No real complaints here.
>
>--------
>Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Domed rivets-response to Christian Trembley |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi David-- A friend of mine just finished a Soneral II and I helped him
skin the wings. It calls for pop rivets just like the 601 but counter
sinks all rivets and uses a flat nose on the puller. The result is
almost undetectable from bucked rivets and a lot less difficult and
time-consuming. It does take a second step of counter sinking the
rivets but the result is nice. I have no idea what the effect is on top
speed, but the wing is a lot thinner so I expect it's more laminar for a
larger percent of the wing surface than our fat wings. If I were to even
think about bucking rivets I would use the countersunk method instead.
Ron
do not archive
David X wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>
>The only explanation I've seen is on the Zenith site. The unique method makes
for a tighter seal in the hole; which would - I imagine - also help keep moisture
out and prevent corrosion. It makes some sense when you consider that its
a bit like wedging the head of the rivet in instead of just pressing it but
its debatable that it would seal better than a regular pulled rivet that expands
everywhere it possibly can. I did notice that Chris technique makes for a slightly
smaller dome than the regular domed rivets.
>
>--------
>Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
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>
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>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Flap actuator travel |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
I want to connect a Ray Allen position sensor to my 601XL's flap actuator to
drive the indicator on the panel. Looking at the actuator and linkage to the
flaps I am guessing the actuator will move farther than the range of travel
of Ray Allen's "longest" sensor. So I expect I'll have to cobble up some
linkage to reduce the travel the sensor "sees". How far does the actuator
move in a "typical" XL? The distance between the rollers of the two limit
switches would get me started.
Or does someone have a more clever scheme?
-- Craig
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Domed rivets-response to Christian Trembley |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John" <bakpakr2@cox.net>
Just curious if your friend was countersinking .016 aluminum?
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "ron dewees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Domed rivets-response to Christian Trembley
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
>
> Hi David-- A friend of mine just finished a Soneral II and I helped him
> skin the wings. It calls for pop rivets just like the 601 but counter
> sinks all rivets and uses a flat nose on the puller. The result is
> almost undetectable from bucked rivets and a lot less difficult and
> time-consuming. It does take a second step of counter sinking the
> rivets but the result is nice. I have no idea what the effect is on top
> speed, but the wing is a lot thinner so I expect it's more laminar for a
> larger percent of the wing surface than our fat wings. If I were to even
> think about bucking rivets I would use the countersunk method instead.
> Ron
> do not archive
>
> David X wrote:
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>>
>>The only explanation I've seen is on the Zenith site. The unique method
>>makes for a tighter seal in the hole; which would - I imagine - also help
>>keep moisture out and prevent corrosion. It makes some sense when you
>>consider that its a bit like wedging the head of the rivet in instead of
>>just pressing it but its debatable that it would seal better than a
>>regular pulled rivet that expands everywhere it possibly can. I did notice
>>that Chris technique makes for a slightly smaller dome than the regular
>>domed rivets.
>>
>>--------
>>Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
>>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Flap actuator travel |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
I thought about the indicator but decided that the cheapest way was to just look
out the window at the flaps. As far as the sensor, I suspect that you could
mount it anywhere along the actuator arm to the back of the seat frame creating
whatever range was required by the sensor. Jack in Los Osos Ca
P.s. Faa has finally scheduled a inspection next week after several months of
delay. ya hoo!
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
I want to connect a Ray Allen position sensor to my 601XL's flap actuator to
drive the indicator on the panel. Looking at the actuator and linkage to the
flaps I am guessing the actuator will move farther than the range of travel
of Ray Allen's "longest" sensor. So I expect I'll have to cobble up some
linkage to reduce the travel the sensor "sees". How far does the actuator
move in a "typical" XL? The distance between the rollers of the two limit
switches would get me started.
Or does someone have a more clever scheme?
-- Craig
Message 7
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| Subject: | Flap actuator travel |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
Craig--
I've installed the sensor on my XL. No need to cobble anything together.
You will have to fabricate a small mount for the sensor and then just pick a
position
along the vertical flap arm which coincides with the travel of the sensor
arm.
A little trial and error and it works fine. I attached mine with a R/C
clevis
and threaded rod. Let me know if you need pictures.
George May
601XL 912s
>From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Flap actuator travel
>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 13:36:45 -0600
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>I want to connect a Ray Allen position sensor to my 601XL's flap actuator
>to
>drive the indicator on the panel. Looking at the actuator and linkage to
>the
>flaps I am guessing the actuator will move farther than the range of travel
>of Ray Allen's "longest" sensor. So I expect I'll have to cobble up some
>linkage to reduce the travel the sensor "sees". How far does the actuator
>move in a "typical" XL? The distance between the rollers of the two limit
>switches would get me started.
>
>Or does someone have a more clever scheme?
>
>-- Craig
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" <allenricks@verizon.net>
Dear fellow listers...
I am about to commit metalcide on my wing skins. Two questions.
1. Does anyone have a really great method or advice for cutting the
inspection panels out. Anyone had good luck with a hole saw vs. drill
and file, or any other
great method.
2. I need to cut the skins for the wing locker option. Again, any great
advice here. I do have a hand held high speed air cutting wheel.
Anyone tried one of these,and does it heat the metal
too much? Can you keep it straight? Any other advice or tips.
I'd really hate to screw up the skins at this point. They are ready to
rivet in place once I have accomplished the above two tasks.
Thanks.
Allen Ricks
Beaverton, OR.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Allen,
Don't use any power equipment. These are best done by hand. If you
need to cut a circle type
hole for inspection, drill a quarter inch hole at center of it with a
drill. Then put a sharp tool in your
fly-cutter with the vertical side of the cutting tool to the outside,
manually pull the tool like a compass
in a circle with very light pressure to remove material until the disk
virtually drops into your hand. This
is a fool-proof method where using a drill can be easily pressing your
luck. Takes about 10 minutes.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wing/inspectionpanels/full/accessspydersafety.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wing/inspectionpanels/full/accessplate2.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly2/full/inspectail.gif
On the luggage wing opening, carefully ink mark your opening. Drill a
hole with a step drill a couple of
inches inside of the line. Cut the skin away with your best Weiss hand
shears, right or left hand and work
the hole down to an inch from the ink mark. Then cut to leave an eighth
inch. Then proceed to cut on the
inside edge of the ink mark with the shears. Afterward, carefully file
the edge to smooth it and keep it straight.
This method removes material in a way that will least likely bend any
outside the perimeter of the hole you
intend to make. Takes a little time, but it is a sure way to get a good
job. See links below.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wing/baggagearea/full/baggage-door-rear.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wing/baggagearea/full/luggageopenrear.gif
If you have further questions, just ask.
Good luck,
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Allen Ricks wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" <allenricks@verizon.net>
>
>Dear fellow listers...
>
>I am about to commit metalcide on my wing skins. Two questions.
>
>1. Does anyone have a really great method or advice for cutting the
> inspection panels out. Anyone had good luck with a hole saw vs. drill
>and file, or any other
> great method.
>
>2. I need to cut the skins for the wing locker option. Again, any great
> advice here. I do have a hand held high speed air cutting wheel.
> Anyone tried one of these,and does it heat the metal
> too much? Can you keep it straight? Any other advice or tips.
>
>I'd really hate to screw up the skins at this point. They are ready to
>rivet in place once I have accomplished the above two tasks.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Allen Ricks
>Beaverton, OR.
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Eatman" <pilotdna@hotmail.com>
Hi Allen,
I have not yet made any inspection holes and can't help you there. However,
I do cut everything using a die grinder with a 3" cutting wheel as you
mentioned. It works extremely well, and the thinnest style wheels
(depending on vendor, they range from paper thin to almost 1/8" thick) slice
through .032 and thinner sheet so fast it only gets slightly warm to the
touch. The wheel will not distort the edges as hand shears do, and it
allows "plunge cuts" like you need to do for the locker openings.
After using the cutting wheel to cut close to your intended line, a 90
degree die grinder with a small 50 grit sanding disk allows very
controllable final trimming, although if you need to trim more than an
eighth inch or so you may have to pause to allow cooling since the sanding
disk does heat the metal up quickly.
This is the technique I have used for all rib, horn, fitting, and skin
blanks for the H. Stab and elevator. However, that is all I have built so
take it for what it's worth.
Do not Archive
Douglas Eatman
601XL/Corvair scratch builder
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Two words.. Olfa Knife
http://www.ch601.org/tools/olfa.htm
It is the best thing for straight cuts like the one
needed for the wing lockers.
William Dominguez
Plansbuilt Zodiac 601XL
--- Allen Ricks <allenricks@verizon.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks"
> <allenricks@verizon.net>
>
> Dear fellow listers...
>
> I am about to commit metalcide on my wing skins.
> Two questions.
>
> 1. Does anyone have a really great method or advice
> for cutting the
> inspection panels out. Anyone had good luck
> with a hole saw vs. drill
> and file, or any other
> great method.
>
> 2. I need to cut the skins for the wing locker
> option. Again, any great
> advice here. I do have a hand held high speed
> air cutting wheel.
> Anyone tried one of these,and does it heat the
> metal
> too much? Can you keep it straight? Any other
> advice or tips.
>
> I'd really hate to screw up the skins at this point.
> They are ready to
> rivet in place once I have accomplished the above
> two tasks.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Allen Ricks
> Beaverton, OR.
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
protection around
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Ricks" <allenricks@verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:28 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Access panel and wing lockers...
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" <allenricks@verizon.net>
Allen-
Drill access holes in the corners, duct tape over top of the skin to
within 1/8" of your line. Use an appropriate metal cutting blade in a good
saber saw to cut close to the line. (Mine is a variable speed Skil). Touch
up with a mill bastard file.
Alternative, if you haven't already permanently attached the skins, is
to use an Olfa knife. Just getting around to trying it- looks real clean in
the HomebuiltHelp DVD.
Bill
>
> 2. I need to cut the skins for the wing locker option. Again, any great
> advice here.
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
For the baggage holes I had rapid success with a jigsaw...Tape the skins
with masking tape so the foot of the saw won't scratch...Then let it
rip...Now don't try to cut up to the edges of the hole with a saw,
grinding wheel or anything else that is "hi speed"...simply cut to
within 3/8ths" minimum and finish off with tin snips.
This mthod has them cut in no time flat!
Frank
601HDS 395 hours...fresh BFR
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Ricks
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 4:28 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Access panel and wing lockers...
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks"
--> <allenricks@verizon.net>
Dear fellow listers...
I am about to commit metalcide on my wing skins. Two questions.
1. Does anyone have a really great method or advice for cutting the
inspection panels out. Anyone had good luck with a hole saw vs.
drill and file, or any other
great method.
2. I need to cut the skins for the wing locker option. Again, any
great
advice here. I do have a hand held high speed air cutting wheel.
Anyone tried one of these,and does it heat the metal
too much? Can you keep it straight? Any other advice or tips.
I'd really hate to screw up the skins at this point. They are ready to
rivet in place once I have accomplished the above two tasks.
Thanks.
Allen Ricks
Beaverton, OR.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Allen,
It seems like there are as many ways to cut holes in wing skins as
there are builders doing it. Let me add my method to the list of alternatives.
First I mark exactly the shape I want in the finished hole with a
felt tip (permanent) marker. This often requires making a pattern
from 1/8 inch plywood or similar material and just tracing the
outline. In the case of an inspection hole, I mark the centerline
and endpoints of the oval shape on the wing and then use my full size
pattern with matching centerline marks to locate and draw the outline
on the skin.
To get the actual hole I use what I call my "Sneaking up"
method. This method works for everything from forming nearly perfect
inspection holes to machining parts on a lathe or shoving dirt and
gravel around with a tractor. In the wing skin case, I start by
making a nice hole with a step drill somewhere inside the marked
pattern. This hole winds up being 3/4 inch or so and is large enough
to allow tin snips to start cutting toward the final outline. Next I
make as many repeated passes as necessary with the snips removing
metal from the hole. Depending on the shape needed, I stop using the
snips when I am around 1/4 inch from the final mark to right on the
line for a straight portion of the outline. Then I move to hand
files and sometimes a Dremel tool with a triangular (conical?) rotary
file to work ever closer to the final line. I like the triangular
shape because I can choose to use the small radius portion for slow
cutting or move to larger radius portion for faster metal removal. A
rat tail file is great for forming relatively small radius areas like
a rounded inside corner.
For an actual inspection plate, I start by making the plate
itself. I drill pilot holes where the final screws will go. After
finding the correct position for the plate, I attach it to the skin
with duct tape and drill through the holes to get perfect matches for
the holes in the skin. Clecos are handy for this process too. The
actual inspection hole is then marked inside the screw holes and the
metal is removed. Meanwhile the screw holes are opened up to the
required size for the screws and nut plates installed on the
inspection plate. (I set the solid rivets using a 1 ton arbor press
I have had around the shop for a long time.) After creating the
inspection hole, the screw holes are enlarged. To install the
inspection plate I like to attach a temporary handle with duct tape
rolled into a circle to make double stick duct tape. That is used to
hold a block of wood onto the plate to position it for the
screws. After the screws are installed the temporary handle comes right off.
After reaching the marked outline, it is time to finish the edge of
metal. I do this with smooth files of appropriate shape. The half
round shape seems to be the best for most uses. Final finish can be
done with the files or a few passes with extra fine grit sandpaper or
emery cloth will make a very smooth edge that won't cut you or one of
your many girlfriends while they are stowing baggage for the weekend
in the wilderness.
Good luck,
Paul
XL wings
At 04:28 PM 4/12/2006, you wrote:
>Does anyone have a really great method or advice for cutting the
> inspection panels out. Anyone had good luck with a hole saw vs. drill
>and file, or any other
> great method.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
How about cutting the outline with Jillson snips - slow, sure, and easy.
Touch up with a file. Robert Schoenberger do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Access panel and wing lockers...
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> For the baggage holes I had rapid success with a jigsaw...Tape the skins
> with masking tape so the foot of the saw won't scratch...Then let it
> rip...Now don't try to cut up to the edges of the hole with a saw,
> grinding wheel or anything else that is "hi speed"...simply cut to
> within 3/8ths" minimum and finish off with tin snips.
>
> This mthod has them cut in no time flat!
>
> Frank
>
> 601HDS 395 hours...fresh BFR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Ricks
> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 4:28 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Access panel and wing lockers...
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks"
> --> <allenricks@verizon.net>
>
> Dear fellow listers...
>
> I am about to commit metalcide on my wing skins. Two questions.
>
> 1. Does anyone have a really great method or advice for cutting the
> inspection panels out. Anyone had good luck with a hole saw vs.
> drill and file, or any other
> great method.
>
> 2. I need to cut the skins for the wing locker option. Again, any
> great
> advice here. I do have a hand held high speed air cutting wheel.
> Anyone tried one of these,and does it heat the metal
> too much? Can you keep it straight? Any other advice or tips.
>
> I'd really hate to screw up the skins at this point. They are ready to
> rivet in place once I have accomplished the above two tasks.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Allen Ricks
> Beaverton, OR.
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Access panel and wing lockers... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Davidson" <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
Allen Ricks wrote:
I am about to commit metalcide on my wing skins. Two questions.
Anyone had good luck with a hole saw vs. drill and file, or any other
great method.
Allen,
FWIW I used a unibit to drill out the four corners of the opening.
Then I enlarged the openings with a hand nibbler enough to use simple
straight hand snips with a non-serrated edge. Then I filed the cut edges
smooth. It is a manual process, but I felt that I had a lot more control
this way. They came out fine.
Jeff Davidson
Do not archive
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