---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/20/06: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:48 AM - Re: May 6th - Zenith Fly-In (CH701) 2. 05:13 AM - More 701 brakes (Zed Smith) 3. 08:49 AM - Sensenich ground adj prop (Tim Juhl) 4. 08:51 AM - Re: May 6th fly-in (fred sanford) 5. 09:16 AM - Re: More 701 brakes (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 6. 09:39 AM - Re: Corvair engine failure - 04/17/06 (Gpjann@aol.com) 7. 09:45 AM - Re: Sensenich ground adj prop (Paul Mulwitz) 8. 10:18 AM - Re: Sensenich ground adj prop (Dan Ribb) 9. 10:42 AM - Re: More 701 brakes (Jim Hoak) 10. 11:44 AM - Re: More 701 brakes (Chuck Deiterich) 11. 12:00 PM - 701 brakes (Zed Smith) 12. 12:11 PM - Re: More 701 brakes (Randy Bryant) 13. 12:57 PM - Re: More 701 brakes (doug kandle) 14. 01:24 PM - FloScan (Beckman, Rick) 15. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: Corvair engine failure - 04/17/06 (Cy Galley) 16. 04:37 PM - Re: Sensenich ground adj prop (Tim Juhl) 17. 04:51 PM - Re: Sensenich ground adj prop (Tim Juhl) 18. 05:38 PM - Re: RE : Re: reamer size vs drill bit size (ROBERT SCEPPA) 19. 06:08 PM - Faa inspection passed (Jack Russell) 20. 09:32 PM - Re: Faa inspection passed (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 21. 10:33 PM - Re: full throttle ??? spin/no spin ? (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:16 AM PST US From: "CH701" <701stol@gmail.com> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: May 6th - Zenith Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: "CH701" <701stol@gmail.com> Dave & All, Here's the Zenith (Quality Sport Planes LLC) link to info on the event: http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_036.htm Todd Henning West Bend, WI -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Ruddiman Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: Zenith-List: May 6th - Zenith Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" --> Does anyone know anything about the Zenith Fly-In on May 6th in California. I thought about driving down from Oregon. Might be a long way to go for a one day deal. Dave in Salem ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:45 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith List -- The 17 feet of quarter-inch OD Nylon tubing supplied by ZAC for the brake lines was actually only 14 feet. Either I move the gear forward, rudder pedals aft, or, get more tubing. Question is: Which tubing in the Spruce catalog is the replacement, "Nylo-Seal" or "Nylaflow"? Tubing on hand is Nylon and was made in Canada. It is marked as .170 ID and fits perfectly on the supplied brass "Poly-Flo" fittings. Regards & Thanks, Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:54 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Sensenich ground adj prop From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" Does anyone have any experience with the Sensenich Carbon Fiber ground adjustable prop used on a Jabiru 3300 in a 601XL? Sensenich has a 10% off sale thru the end of April if you order direct from the factory so I'd like to take advantage of the list's collective wisdom to help make a purchase decision. Tim -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29647#29647 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:44 AM PST US From: fred sanford Subject: Zenith-List: Re: May 6th fly-in --> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford Hi Dave in Salem: Just talked to the guy in Cloverdale. They are going to have two 701's there, and mine will be the third (weather permitting - flying up from Santa Barbara). Their 601. Several LSA presentations. Quick build displays for 601. Rudder workshop going on. Lunch BBQ. Chris Heintz should be there. Ultralights flying and parachuters jumping. do not archive Fred Sanford - N9701 - IZA - 52 hours ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:46 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Zed, I have the plastic tube brake lines on my XL. If I was building again I would not install it and here is why. When I vigorously apply bakes I am getting hard pressure, but the plane does not slow as readily as I believe it should. I think (without any real proof) that some of the pressure is dissipated by the general expansion of 14/17 feet of plastic lines and in effect reducing that to the brake calibers. I fly and land my plane, but I have missed more than a few turn offs because I simply rolled past them. And I am not happy about short airports. If I was building or if I ever have to rebuild ( pray Lord I never have to ) I would install steel lines. FWIW, Best regards, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:45 AM PST US From: Gpjann@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engine failure - 04/17/06 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gpjann@aol.com I wonder if the pilot reached good static PRM while ground testing his engine. If he did, than maybe the prop/pitch was not correct. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:33 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sensenich ground adj prop --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I spoke with the guru at Sensenich last year about this new product. I believe it has just been made available to customers recently, so there is not much information floating around. You might check with Pete at Jabiru since he was involved a little in the product development. My understanding is you can get it from 60 to 62 inches and there might be an option to get a leading edge reinforcement installed at the factory. My current plan is to order one in the 60 inch length since this should allow full 3300 rpm use on the Jabiru 3300. According to the guy at Sensenich the 62 inch length is designed for use to 3200 rpms. (I hope my memory is good on this point, but I am sure you can confirm the facts with the authorities.) Good luck, Paul XL wings >Does anyone have any experience with the Sensenich Carbon Fiber >ground adjustable prop used on a Jabiru 3300 in a 601XL? > >Sensenich has a 10% off sale thru the end of April if you order >direct from the factory so I'd like to take advantage of the list's >collective wisdom to help make a purchase decision. > >Tim > > -- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:44 AM PST US From: "Dan Ribb" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sensenich ground adj prop --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Ribb" More info here. http://www.sensenichprop.com/sen_html/carbon_faq-2.pdf - Dan ----- Original Message ----- > Does anyone have any experience with the Sensenich Carbon Fiber > ground adjustable prop used on a Jabiru 3300 in a 601XL? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:19 AM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" Bill and List, If your replace the "plastic" brake line use 5052 aluminun not steel. That's what I put on my Midget Mustang I, 35 years ago, using Cleaveland brakes. Those would put the Mustang on it's nose if you weren't carefull. I don't think there is pressure loss at the brakes due to expansion or flexing of the "plastic" line on our Zeniths. Rather I think it's just too small brake pads on the Matco brakes, but I could be Wrong AGAIN! I'm replacing the pads now on my 601HD after 500 hrs (over 700 landings). They sure are small. They won't hold the plane still when checking ignition at 3850 RPM of my 80HP Rotax eng. I agree with Bill that unless I really slow down on final and make a nice very slow touchdown I roll past some turn-offs. All the more reason to make nice slow controlled landings! do not archive Jim Hoak ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com > > Zed, I have the plastic tube brake lines on my XL. If I was building again > I > would not install it and here is why. When I vigorously apply bakes I am > getting hard pressure, but the plane does not slow as readily as I believe > it > should. I think (without any real proof) that some of the pressure is > dissipated by > the general expansion of 14/17 feet of plastic lines and in effect > reducing > that to the brake calibers. I fly and land my plane, but I have missed > more > than a few turn offs because I simply rolled past them. And I am not happy > about > short airports. If I was building or if I ever have to rebuild ( pray Lord > I > never have to ) I would install steel lines. FWIW, Best regards, Bill of > Georgia > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:02 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" The geometry of the ZAC brakes is such that you don't get good mechanical advantage. A lot has been said about this in the past. If you are not "bottoming out" the master cylinder you are not losing braking power due to expansion of brake lines. Chuck D. N701TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Hoak" Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" > > Bill and List, > > If your replace the "plastic" brake line use 5052 aluminun not steel. That's > what I put on my Midget Mustang I, 35 years ago, using Cleaveland brakes. > Those would put the Mustang on it's nose if you weren't carefull. I don't > think there is pressure loss at the brakes due to expansion or flexing of > the "plastic" line on our Zeniths. Rather I think it's just too small brake > pads on the Matco brakes, but I could be Wrong AGAIN! I'm replacing the pads > now on my 601HD after 500 hrs (over 700 landings). They sure are small. They > won't hold the plane still when checking ignition at 3850 RPM of my 80HP > Rotax eng. I agree with Bill that unless I really slow down on final and > make a nice very slow touchdown I roll past some turn-offs. All the more > reason to make nice slow controlled landings! > > do not archive > > Jim Hoak > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com > > > > Zed, I have the plastic tube brake lines on my XL. If I was building again > > I > > would not install it and here is why. When I vigorously apply bakes I am > > getting hard pressure, but the plane does not slow as readily as I believe > > it > > should. I think (without any real proof) that some of the pressure is > > dissipated by > > the general expansion of 14/17 feet of plastic lines and in effect > > reducing > > that to the brake calibers. I fly and land my plane, but I have missed > > more > > than a few turn offs because I simply rolled past them. And I am not happy > > about > > short airports. If I was building or if I ever have to rebuild ( pray Lord > > I > > never have to ) I would install steel lines. FWIW, Best regards, Bill of > > Georgia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:10 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: 701 brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith List, Thanks to all, on list and off, for the advice. Looks like some are experiencing stopping problems.......so one observation -- On a previous plane where I had single calipers per wheel there was no problem locking the wheels with brake pressure. Granted the wheels would slide on grass, and sometimes even on concrete that had a smooth finish. Never had the problem on asphalt. This is with R912/3-blade prop. I decided to install much larger tires, run lower tire pressure for bounce-free taxiing......that was a real mistake. The longer radius of the tire/wheel combination was more than the single puck would hold. Pads slipped on the disks at run-up every time. Still would slide on grass, but the point is the singles weren't enough to lock the wheels. My still-under-construction 701 with R912 has dual calipers per wheel and I assume (bad choice of word) that all the more recent 701 production has this setup.....can't speak for the 601 series. Anyway, thanks for the replys. Regards, Zed do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:42 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" Seems logical to me... Since a liquid cannot be compressed, at some point the lines would quit expanding and would either burst or apply more force to the brake pads... As long as you have not "bottomed out" the master cylinder yet... Randy B. N344RB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Deiterich" Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 2:41 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" > > The geometry of the ZAC brakes is such that you don't get good mechanical > advantage. A lot has been said about this in the past. If you are not > "bottoming out" the master cylinder you are not losing braking power due > to > expansion of brake lines. > Chuck D. > N701TX > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Hoak" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:40 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" >> >> Bill and List, >> >> If your replace the "plastic" brake line use 5052 aluminun not steel. > That's >> what I put on my Midget Mustang I, 35 years ago, using Cleaveland brakes. >> Those would put the Mustang on it's nose if you weren't carefull. I don't >> think there is pressure loss at the brakes due to expansion or flexing of >> the "plastic" line on our Zeniths. Rather I think it's just too small > brake >> pads on the Matco brakes, but I could be Wrong AGAIN! I'm replacing the > pads >> now on my 601HD after 500 hrs (over 700 landings). They sure are small. > They >> won't hold the plane still when checking ignition at 3850 RPM of my 80HP >> Rotax eng. I agree with Bill that unless I really slow down on final and >> make a nice very slow touchdown I roll past some turn-offs. All the more >> reason to make nice slow controlled landings! >> >> do not archive >> >> Jim Hoak >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes >> >> >> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com >> > >> > Zed, I have the plastic tube brake lines on my XL. If I was building > again >> > I >> > would not install it and here is why. When I vigorously apply bakes I >> > am >> > getting hard pressure, but the plane does not slow as readily as I > believe >> > it >> > should. I think (without any real proof) that some of the pressure is >> > dissipated by >> > the general expansion of 14/17 feet of plastic lines and in effect >> > reducing >> > that to the brake calibers. I fly and land my plane, but I have missed >> > more >> > than a few turn offs because I simply rolled past them. And I am not > happy >> > about >> > short airports. If I was building or if I ever have to rebuild ( pray > Lord >> > I >> > never have to ) I would install steel lines. FWIW, Best regards, Bill >> > of >> > Georgia >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:58 PM PST US From: doug kandle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More 701 brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle I found out that if you don't break in the pads as the instructions state, they don't work very well. When I break in a new set of linings I taxi 2 or 3 thousand feet with the brakes on. They get hot and I see sparks coming off of the disks. But after they cool, they work much better. --- When I vigorously apply bakes I > >> > am > >> > getting hard pressure, but the plane does not slow as readily as I > > believe > >> > it > >> > should. I think (without any real proof) that some of the pressure is > >> > dissipated by > >> > the general expansion of 14/17 feet of plastic lines and in effect > >> > reducing > >> > that to the brake calibers. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: FloScan From: "Beckman, Rick" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Beckman, Rick" Hi, Y'all If any of you are using the GRT EIS with the FloScan sensor, would you e-mail me off list, please? I have some technical questions I need answered. Thanks, Rick ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:33 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engine failure - 04/17/06 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" He might have reached a really good static. So high that the prop goes sonic and the engine can't make it turn any faster and the "bite" to too small to reach flying speed. It happens. Too flat a pitch is just as bad as too much pitch. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:27 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engine failure - 04/17/06 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gpjann@aol.com > > I wonder if the pilot reached good static PRM while ground testing his > engine. > If he did, than maybe the prop/pitch was not correct. > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sensenich ground adj prop From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" Thanks. I talked to Pete earlier today and he said that there were at least a couple of Zenith owners flying behind the new prop. He had generally favorable comments about the prop when used with Jabiru aircraft and said that about half the Zenith folks buying Jab 3300's were opting for the new prop. I was hoping there might be someone on the list who could share their first hand experiences. Tim -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29736#29736 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sensenich ground adj prop From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" Oops! I forgot to mention some other info I got while talking with Sensenich - You might find their comments useful "We have a 64" two blade propeller for the jabiru 3300 engine. Propeller is rated at the same rating as the engine: 3300 intermittant, 2850 continuous. In my opinion, the propeller is fine for 3000 continuous. Now with the new economy tuning kit, most people with 3300 engines will stay below 2900 because fuel consumption rises by 2 gph at 3000 and above. For the month of april, our composite aircraft propellers are available direct from the factory at 10% off. $1525 retail - $1375 april special cost includes all mounting hardware for propeller. Normal finish is all white, red tips and flat back face. Alternate solid colors are: grey and black with white or red tips. Includes nickel leading edge. Delivery usually runs 2-3 weeks." Tim -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29739#29739 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:56 PM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: RE : Re: Zenith-List: reamer size vs drill bit size --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > I agree. I tried opening the site here, didn't work. > The way I did it is to put the info your looking for > in the Yahoo search window. You will see several > sites, that was one of them. Try again..Bob Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > > Robert, there must be a typo in the URL you > provided; > > http://www.littlemachine.com/ > > is a web development co. ... > > Carlos > do not archive > > --- ROBERT SCEPPA a crit : > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > > > > > > Go to LittleMachine,com Carlos > > > > > > > Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ? > magasinage.yahoo.ca > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:47 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Zenith-List: Faa inspection passed --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Our experience with the FAA inspector was a good one. The inspection took a couple of hours and the only problem he had was one prop bolt safety wire was loose. Should be in the air soon! Of course, We had to wait about 3 months for this all to occur so learn from our mistakes. We went to the local fsdo and was told to bring all paperwork to their office which we did the next day. A couple of weeks later the inspector called to set up an appointment and asked if we had registered it with OK. Told him that he had the paper work. Long story short, The registration must be sent direct to OK and not the local office before the inspection can be set up. We sent it off to OK and finally we got the regs back. All the run around took about 2 months longer than it should have. Just a word of advice, get it registered long before you think you might be getting to the end. Jack in Los Osos Ca. Ps. The Inspector was a great guy to work with. Very helpful. Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:55 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Faa inspection passed --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com So Jack, how did she fly ???? ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:43 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: full throttle ??? spin/no spin ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Fritz, The spring to full power is very important. In fact here, our Instructor and most Experienced Bush Pilot (no AF-1 of course :-) Flys a C 180 to the mountains to do mission flights, He has "the spring" in his carburator. and sure is not a Rotax powered Cessna. By the way he is my Instructor and was the test pilot for our 701. He loved the plane, Saludos Gary Gower Just back from some GREAT vacations! Later some comments. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Do not archive. Fritz Gurschick wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fritz Gurschick All--- this is why I keep my post to a minimum--- will do my best not to make any more, but I have a hard time keeping quiet when it is a saftey issue. Let's not "spin" this around---- the orginal question was about-- "Full throlle at linkage breakeage." Not everyone is flying with a Rotax 912, which I believe uses the Bing Carbs, with their use of assistance springs. What Jon C. did by his own admission was to modify these springs which lead to the fact he couldn't acquire full rpm for a successful go around. I will not "paste and drag" his account to this page as I don't believe it is fair to Jon to do that. (Jon took the time to post a very informative narration and pictures in the hopes that others wouldn't make the same mistake he did------ thank you, Jon) Also, as far as appling brakes at engine start, I realize that is the proper thing to do. But, after following this site for some time, it is very apparent that there are some Zenith/ Zenair aircraft out there with less than appropriate braking power.---Fritz Jean-Paul Roy wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" Has anyone heard of John Croke who also tought the full throttle failure set up wasn't up to par. On one approach, he decided to overshoot an applied full throttle without getting any engine response or partial response,,,,,,,,,,,, and crashed his 701 in some trees. He had removed the heavy spring Rotax or Bing install on the carbs and replaced it with a weaker spring. Just ask him what he thinks: feedback@HomebuiltHELP.com Jean-Paul do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leo Gates" Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: full throttle ????? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates > > List, > I am very happy with my Rotax 912 throttle hook-up. I always start the > engine with my feet on the breaks. My HDS will creep (tires skid) at > full throttle. A runaway at start up is a simple "turn off the > ignition". My hand is already 2" away on the throttle. I don't see a > problem and I would MUCH more prefer full throttle failure than idle. > > My 2 cents. > Do not archive. > > Leo Gates > N601Z > > Fritz Gurschick wrote: > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fritz Gurschick > > > >List, > > "What if you have a throttle failure on engine start, at a fly-in, crowed ramp conditions, with all kinds of people and airplanes around". > > In a panic situation, the shut-down procedure might not get done as quickly as one might expect and a lot of folks and equipment could be severly damaged. > > ---------------------------------