Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:32 AM - Re: HDS Wings (Peter Barthold)
2. 05:49 AM - Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket (Crvsecretary@aol.com)
3. 06:39 AM - Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket (N5SL)
4. 07:24 AM - Re: Wing skins - getting it flat and straight! (John M. Goodings)
5. 07:43 AM - Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket (LarryMcFarland)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Wing skins - getting it flat and straight! (lynn dingfelder)
7. 09:26 AM - Re: 701 Header tank installation (Geoff Heap)
8. 09:32 AM - Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket ()
9. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: 701 Header tank installation (LarryMcFarland)
10. 10:57 AM - Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket (LarryMcFarland)
11. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket ()
12. 01:30 PM - aileron trim tab power (mcr01steiner@mac.com)
13. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: HDS Wings (Gary Boothe)
14. 03:41 PM - Re: HDS Wings (Bill Naumuk)
15. 04:09 PM - Re: HDS Wings (Gary Boothe)
16. 04:20 PM - Re: HDS Wings (Gary Boothe)
17. 06:01 PM - Re: HDS Wings (Bill Naumuk)
18. 06:16 PM - Re: aileron trim tab power (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
19. 06:48 PM - holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts (Carlos Sa)
20. 06:51 PM - A5 Rivets (Randy Bryant)
21. 08:29 PM - Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts (ROBERT SCEPPA)
22. 08:29 PM - Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts (cgalley)
23. 08:29 PM - Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts (cgalley)
24. 08:29 PM - Re: A5 Rivets (ROBERT SCEPPA)
25. 09:44 PM - Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts (George Swinford)
26. 09:44 PM - Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts (Dan Ribb)
27. 10:37 PM - Re: A5 Rivets (Randy Bryant)
28. 10:46 PM - Re: A5 Rivets ()
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Barthold" <peter.barthold@t-online.de>
Hi Gary,
that is interesting, our projects seem to run totally parallel. I am working on
the (1st) wing of my HDS TD VW Project. I thought I am the last to build this
"dinosaur" [Wink]
However, I did flip over once for now. Clecoed the skeleton and rear top skin, then flipped over onto a super simple holding device made out of scrapped shelves and some lumber , I had lying around. (see: http://www.petersprojekt42.de/PDRM0114_JPG_view.htm ) took about half an hour to complete. I ripped the contour from the second pair of rear ribs I have. Totally true and level and gives me the opportunity to move the assebly around on the table. I intend to complete the whole thing in clecos before I start riveting.
Best Regards from Germany
Peter Barthold
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30310#30310
Message 2
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| Subject: | Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com
Hello All:
I finally caught up in reading a lot of posts that have come in over the
past two weeks and I have a concern about the A5 rivets coming loose on the
aileron bellcrank support P/N 6W6-11. I see these brackets are held to the Rear
Rib # 7 with (3) each A5 rivets. As the bracket receives force from the
control cables through the bellcrank the brackets are pulled in to the rib, but
as the bellcrank transmits that force to the aileron the brackets are
receiving shear forces and transmitting that load through the A5 rivets to the
rib.
My question is: I do not understand the forces involved here to cause those
rivets to fail in this location. Are rivets by design stronger in shear than
in tension? I don't see a lot on tension force here - what am I missing?
Also, are AN bolts stronger than rivets in this situation? No, I am NOT
doubting the designer here, I'm just trying to understand this situation.
Can't you tell I am at this point in wing construction?
Thank you everyone for the suggestions, directions, and contributions made
on this list for the benefit of everyone.
Best Regards,
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
601xl N458XL (reserved)
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Tracy:
I did this:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_25_03_AileronControl.JPG
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
--- Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote:
>
> Hello All:
>
> I finally caught up in reading a lot of posts that
> have come in over the
> past two weeks and I have a concern about the A5
> rivets coming loose on the
> aileron bellcrank support P/N 6W6-11.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wing skins - getting it flat and straight! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" <goodings@yorku.ca>
I read about builders who spend considerable time getting a work table
absoutely flat and level. Let me suggest another approach which certainly
worked for us. My son and I built our 601HD on an 8' x 4' sheet of 3/4"
particle board laid across two saw horses; nothing was braced or levelled.
However, I am a huge believer in right angles, straight lines and
measurement. Wherever a right angle is called for (ribs on spar, etc.,
etc.), we used a large carpenter's square to make it a true right angle.
Our rivet lines are dead straight; a stretched thread is very easy to use.
The two halves of the aircraft (opposite wings, etc.) are dimensionally
identical. If you do this, it MUST come out right. (Actually, it didn't;
the overall left side of the fuselage from the very front to the very back
is 1.5 mm longer than the right side!). When the wings were mounted with
the aircraft on its gear, the tips are the same height from the ground
within a mm; I'm sure this is partly luck. The aircraft first flew
straight and level; like all Zodiacs I know about, it had a slight
tendency to turn to the left. This was cured by a ground-adjustable trim
tab 200 mm x 50 mm on the right, rear, middle aileron, angled down very
slightly. No additional adjustment is necessary with one or two people in
it. Presumably, one is holding a little more or less aileron, but it is
not noticeable; essentially, the aircraft flies hands off, but I tend to
fly it with my right wrist draped over the Y on the top of the stick. My
point is, I don't think new builders should get uptight and stressed out
about perfectly flat tables absolutely level. But I would spend effort in
getting things straight, at right angles and dimensionally accurate.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Tracy,
If you've not tensioned the cables past 20 to 25 lbs and not created a
binding condition on the aileron crank arms,
you should not see a problem. In flight, if you horse the controls
around hard, you could conceivably have enough repeated
force to damage the mounting area of the rib or loosen the A5s.
Seriously doubt A5s would give it up without other
things going on. I don't fly heavy on the controls at any time because
of the risk of something working loose, or worse,
over-stressing things. The walking action of the aileron control rod on
the belcrank creates a tension on the A5s side to side
and does a bending action on the rib if the forces are high enough.
Yes, riveted fasteners are twice as vulnerable to tension as shear.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com
>
>Hello All:
>
>I finally caught up in reading a lot of posts that have come in over the
>past two weeks and I have a concern about the A5 rivets coming loose on the
>aileron bellcrank support P/N 6W6-11. I see these brackets are held to the Rear
>Rib # 7 with (3) each A5 rivets. As the bracket receives force from the
>control cables through the bellcrank the brackets are pulled in to the rib, but
>as the bellcrank transmits that force to the aileron the brackets are
>receiving shear forces and transmitting that load through the A5 rivets to the
rib.
>
>My question is: I do not understand the forces involved here to cause those
>rivets to fail in this location. Are rivets by design stronger in shear than
>in tension? I don't see a lot on tension force here - what am I missing?
>
>Also, are AN bolts stronger than rivets in this situation? No, I am NOT
>doubting the designer here, I'm just trying to understand this situation.
>
>Can't you tell I am at this point in wing construction?
>
>Thank you everyone for the suggestions, directions, and contributions made
>on this list for the benefit of everyone.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Tracy Smith
>Naugatuck, CT
>601xl N458XL (reserved)
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wing skins - getting it flat and straight! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lynn dingfelder" <ding@tbscc.com>
List,
Obviously there are a multitude of methods for obtaining accuracy in
wing construction, and I will offer yet another that worked very well for
me. If you happen to have access to a simple transit or dumpy level for
construction and site work, this can be used for wing frame leveling and
setup to easily obtain a ridiculous degree of accuracy. By using this
instrument set in the corner of the shop, and using shims, exact table
leveling means nothing. I use strips of wood with spring clamps to rest on
top of the spar ends, make a mark where the crosshairs hit, then move it to
the other end and adjust as needed. Takes me about 20 min. to set up an XL
wing dead level with the spar at the required 9 degrees.
Lynn Corry, PA
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Header tank installation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
You guys are the best. Where else can you get this kind of response.
Larry. For some reason I can't get your site up. Is it down? (I've been there before)
Johann. Ive been on your site before also. Your pics are very good. My problem
with the old plans was that the installation did not look secure enough to me
but now I see the extra bracing you put in I feel much better about having 6 gallons
of fuel suspended above my feet. I am ploughing right ahead now with the
install. Thanks again both of you. I'll try your site again later Larry.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30363#30363
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
I don't think the designer would be terribly offended nor would it be an "over
the top" measure of extra safety to substitute an AN3 bolt for an A5 rivet in
critical or high stress assemblies. This assumes that the bolts used are of the
right grip length, acceptable number and placement of washers, etc. The small
extra weight is obvious but not a deal breaker. The caveat is that the use of
an AN bolt and locknut should probably only be done where inspection is possible.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL wings
>
> From: Crvsecretary@aol.com
> Date: 2006/04/24 Mon AM 08:47:09 EDT
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com
>
> Hello All:
>
> I finally caught up in reading a lot of posts that have come in over the
> past two weeks and I have a concern about the A5 rivets coming loose on the
> aileron bellcrank support P/N 6W6-11. I see these brackets are held to the
Rear
> Rib # 7 with (3) each A5 rivets. As the bracket receives force from the
> control cables through the bellcrank the brackets are pulled in to the rib,
but
> as the bellcrank transmits that force to the aileron the brackets are
> receiving shear forces and transmitting that load through the A5 rivets to the
rib.
>
> My question is: I do not understand the forces involved here to cause those
> rivets to fail in this location. Are rivets by design stronger in shear than
> in tension? I don't see a lot on tension force here - what am I missing?
>
> Also, are AN bolts stronger than rivets in this situation? No, I am NOT
> doubting the designer here, I'm just trying to understand this situation.
>
> Can't you tell I am at this point in wing construction?
>
> Thank you everyone for the suggestions, directions, and contributions made
> on this list for the benefit of everyone.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Tracy Smith
> Naugatuck, CT
> 601xl N458XL (reserved)
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Header tank installation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Geoff,
The site is always up but for a few minutes each week when they check
their system.
You might need to again download the Flash component to get to the menu.
Larry
Geoff Heap wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
>
>You guys are the best. Where else can you get this kind of response.
>Larry. For some reason I can't get your site up. Is it down? (I've been there
before)
>Johann. Ive been on your site before also. Your pics are very good. My problem
with the old plans was that the installation did not look secure enough to me
but now I see the extra bracing you put in I feel much better about having 6
gallons of fuel suspended above my feet. I am ploughing right ahead now with the
install. Thanks again both of you. I'll try your site again later Larry.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30363#30363
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Ed,
I'd recommend an AN bolt with a castellated nut safetied with a cotter
where it's used as a pivot
component.
Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
dredmoody@cox.net wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
>
>I don't think the designer would be terribly offended nor would it be an "over
the top" measure of extra safety to substitute an AN3 bolt for an A5 rivet in
critical or high stress assemblies. This assumes that the bolts used are of the
right grip length, acceptable number and placement of washers, etc. The small
extra weight is obvious but not a deal breaker. The caveat is that the use
of an AN bolt and locknut should probably only be done where inspection is possible.
>
>Ed Moody II
>Rayne, LA
>601XL wings
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
I'm sort of leaning towards mounting critical stuff as in the case of the aileron
bellcrank with AN bolts and castle nuts/cotter pin or Nylok with 3 threads
showing. Might even use a backing plate under the stiffeners to spread load and
minimize rib flexing. I promised myself I wouldn't get too OCD on this plane.....
my UL is way too tricked out..... but I think this might be a place to use
extra caution. Besides, I break a lot of those promises.
Ed
> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
>
> Ed,
> I'd recommend an AN bolt with a castellated nut safetied with a cotter
> where it's used as a pivot
> component.
>
> Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | aileron trim tab power |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: mcr01steiner@mac.com
A question for all flying a 601 XL with the electric aileron trim option.
Supposed the plane is flying straight and level with the trim tab in its neutral
position, what roll rate results from a fully deflected aileron trim trab in
either direction ?
Christoph Steiner
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Peter,
Couldn't read a word of your websight, and couldn't figure out how to
enlarge the images, but I think I get the idea. I also made a cradle for my
wings. It is only for storing them, though, and hinges down from the ceiling
so that when a wing is done I can set it in the cradle and pull it up to the
ceiling with a rope and pulley, tie it there, and the garage door can open
beneath it.
Are you now counting the turns of your wing?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Barthold
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 5:26 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: HDS Wings
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Barthold"
<peter.barthold@t-online.de>
Hi Gary,
that is interesting, our projects seem to run totally parallel. I am working
on the (1st) wing of my HDS TD VW Project. I thought I am the last to build
this "dinosaur" [Wink]
However, I did flip over once for now. Clecoed the skeleton and rear top
skin, then flipped over onto a super simple holding device made out of
scrapped shelves and some lumber , I had lying around. (see:
http://www.petersprojekt42.de/PDRM0114_JPG_view.htm ) took about half an
hour to complete. I ripped the contour from the second pair of rear ribs I
have. Totally true and level and gives me the opportunity to move the
assebly around on the table. I intend to complete the whole thing in clecos
before I start riveting.
Best Regards from Germany
Peter Barthold
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30310#30310
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Gary-
Didn't flip my outboards much, but the center is a different story. You
still wind up working upside down and backwards! You might seriously
consider building it on the floor.
Did have my nose skins on and off probably 30 times a side, though.
Tell me about the gas prices. We're at 2.99/9, which is as close as you
can get to $3 and still be under. I drive a 2003 Subaru for nothing but my
commute, and bought it new. Just rolled over 93K miles!
Garanger is going in fits and starts. Probably won't be any further
progress until Thursday.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Just reflecting.has anyone counted how many times they turned their wings
> during the building process? Not me, but it has to be 2-300 times!!!
>
>
> Gary Boothe
>
> Cool, CA
>
> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
>
> Tail done, working on wings.
>
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
$3.30/gal is common. I drive a 2005 3/4 ton Chevy! I usually put over 3,000
miles/mo on it. Thank God the company buys all the gas!!!
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Gary-
Didn't flip my outboards much, but the center is a different story. You
still wind up working upside down and backwards! You might seriously
consider building it on the floor.
Did have my nose skins on and off probably 30 times a side, though.
Tell me about the gas prices. We're at 2.99/9, which is as close as you
can get to $3 and still be under. I drive a 2003 Subaru for nothing but my
commute, and bought it new. Just rolled over 93K miles!
Garanger is going in fits and starts. Probably won't be any further
progress until Thursday.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Just reflecting.has anyone counted how many times they turned their wings
> during the building process? Not me, but it has to be 2-300 times!!!
>
>
> Gary Boothe
>
> Cool, CA
>
> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
>
> Tail done, working on wings.
>
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Sorry, List. That was for Bill....Do not achive!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
$3.30/gal is common. I drive a 2005 3/4 ton Chevy! I usually put over 3,000
miles/mo on it. Thank God the company buys all the gas!!!
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Gary-
Didn't flip my outboards much, but the center is a different story. You
still wind up working upside down and backwards! You might seriously
consider building it on the floor.
Did have my nose skins on and off probably 30 times a side, though.
Tell me about the gas prices. We're at 2.99/9, which is as close as you
can get to $3 and still be under. I drive a 2003 Subaru for nothing but my
commute, and bought it new. Just rolled over 93K miles!
Garanger is going in fits and starts. Probably won't be any further
progress until Thursday.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Just reflecting.has anyone counted how many times they turned their wings
> during the building process? Not me, but it has to be 2-300 times!!!
>
>
> Gary Boothe
>
> Cool, CA
>
> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
>
> Tail done, working on wings.
>
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
All-
I did it, too. Could have swore I clicked on Gary's direct link.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 7:17 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Sorry, List. That was for Bill....Do not achive!!!!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 4:07 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> $3.30/gal is common. I drive a 2005 3/4 ton Chevy! I usually put over
> 3,000
> miles/mo on it. Thank God the company buys all the gas!!!
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 3:37 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
> Gary-
> Didn't flip my outboards much, but the center is a different story. You
> still wind up working upside down and backwards! You might seriously
> consider building it on the floor.
> Did have my nose skins on and off probably 30 times a side, though.
> Tell me about the gas prices. We're at 2.99/9, which is as close as you
> can get to $3 and still be under. I drive a 2003 Subaru for nothing but my
> commute, and bought it new. Just rolled over 93K miles!
> Garanger is going in fits and starts. Probably won't be any further
> progress until Thursday.
> Bill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:06 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: HDS Wings
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>>
>> Just reflecting.has anyone counted how many times they turned their wings
>> during the building process? Not me, but it has to be 2-300 times!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Boothe
>>
>> Cool, CA
>>
>> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
>>
>> Tail done, working on wings.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: aileron trim tab power |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Chris, can't really provide a rate, but the ailerons are sensitive and over
100 mph they only need a slight nudge to quickly start the process. I have made
a cross wind landing with the aileron trim full in the wrong direction and
still able to dip the wind ward wing to bring her in, My trim buttons are on the
stick and I had accidentally re trimmed the aileron on base or final with
incorrect hand location of the stick and just did not see it. I was happy no one
else saw my bobble after I landed, Best regards, Bill of Georgia N505WP,
601XL-3300 w/dc
Message 19
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| Subject: | holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Hello, fellow listers
Once again, I have managed to create problems where no one has created before!
I got reamers of the proper sizes (5/16" and 3/8") to drill the wing attach plates
(CH601-HD),
and the alphabetic size drills to go with them (N and U).
So, tonight I made some holes in some scrap material, for practice.
I expected the bolt to fit very tightly, but nope! They go through easily. Not
too loose, but not
tight. Same with both sizes.
Then, for comparison, I made a hole with a regular 3/8" drill bit, and the results
were similar,
if not a bit tighter!
Am I doing something wrong, or is the difference supposed to be that subtle?
Here's how I made the holes: started with small drill bit and replaced it with
a large one. Drill
hole and repeat.
Below is the sequence for each final size.
Hole for AN5 (5/16"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", then N.
Hole for AN6 (3/8"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", N, then U.
Hole for AN6 (3/8"), no reamer: 1/8", 3/64", 1/4", N then 3/8"
Note that the material was clamped to the drill press table all the time. I did
have to lower the
table one or two inches in order to mount the reamers. This is the only thing I
can think could
have thrown the process off track.
One more question: to avoid the adjustment step, I could cut the reamer's shank.
Does anyone see
a problem with this?
Thanks in advance for your toughts / comments / blank stares.
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
working on a concept of infinity applied to time.
Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ?
magasinage.yahoo.ca
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
I contacted Crawford Products today to order some A5 rivets (1604-0514) and found
out the don't stock these anymore... They offered to special order some for
me but the minimum order was 8000.
Does anyone have another "cheap" contact for rivets for the 601XL?
Thanks in advance,
Randy Bryant
N344RB
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> Carlos, there is another way. Try using close
> tolerence AN bolts. They may solve your problem. Bob
--- Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
> <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello, fellow listers
>
>
> Once again, I have managed to create problems where
> no one has created before!
>
> I got reamers of the proper sizes (5/16" and 3/8")
> to drill the wing attach plates (CH601-HD),
> and the alphabetic size drills to go with them (N
> and U).
>
> So, tonight I made some holes in some scrap
> material, for practice.
> I expected the bolt to fit very tightly, but nope!
> They go through easily. Not too loose, but not
> tight. Same with both sizes.
> Then, for comparison, I made a hole with a regular
> 3/8" drill bit, and the results were similar,
> if not a bit tighter!
>
> Am I doing something wrong, or is the difference
> supposed to be that subtle?
>
> Here's how I made the holes: started with small
> drill bit and replaced it with a large one. Drill
> hole and repeat.
>
> Below is the sequence for each final size.
>
> Hole for AN5 (5/16"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", then N.
>
> Hole for AN6 (3/8"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", N, then U.
>
> Hole for AN6 (3/8"), no reamer: 1/8", 3/64", 1/4", N
> then 3/8"
>
> Note that the material was clamped to the drill
> press table all the time. I did have to lower the
> table one or two inches in order to mount the
> reamers. This is the only thing I can think could
> have thrown the process off track.
>
> One more question: to avoid the adjustment step, I
> could cut the reamer's shank. Does anyone see
> a problem with this?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your toughts / comments /
> blank stares.
>
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> working on a concept of infinity applied to time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ?
> magasinage.yahoo.ca
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Did you mike the bolts?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Sa" <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 8:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello, fellow listers
>
>
> Once again, I have managed to create problems where no one has created
> before!
>
> I got reamers of the proper sizes (5/16" and 3/8") to drill the wing
> attach plates (CH601-HD),
> and the alphabetic size drills to go with them (N and U).
>
> So, tonight I made some holes in some scrap material, for practice.
> I expected the bolt to fit very tightly, but nope! They go through easily.
> Not too loose, but not
> tight. Same with both sizes.
> Then, for comparison, I made a hole with a regular 3/8" drill bit, and the
> results were similar,
> if not a bit tighter!
>
> Am I doing something wrong, or is the difference supposed to be that
> subtle?
>
> Here's how I made the holes: started with small drill bit and replaced it
> with a large one. Drill
> hole and repeat.
>
> Below is the sequence for each final size.
>
> Hole for AN5 (5/16"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", then N.
>
> Hole for AN6 (3/8"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", N, then U.
>
> Hole for AN6 (3/8"), no reamer: 1/8", 3/64", 1/4", N then 3/8"
>
> Note that the material was clamped to the drill press table all the time.
> I did have to lower the
> table one or two inches in order to mount the reamers. This is the only
> thing I can think could
> have thrown the process off track.
>
> One more question: to avoid the adjustment step, I could cut the reamer's
> shank. Does anyone see
> a problem with this?
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your toughts / comments / blank stares.
>
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> working on a concept of infinity applied to time.
>
>
> Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ?
> magasinage.yahoo.ca
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
If you have a standard chucking reamer of a nominal size, an AN bolt is
always a couple of thousands smaller. You can get precision ground aircraft
bolts. If you can find them as surplus they are reasonable.
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Sa" <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 8:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello, fellow listers
>
>
> Once again, I have managed to create problems where no one has created
> before!
>
> I got reamers of the proper sizes (5/16" and 3/8") to drill the wing
> attach plates (CH601-HD),
> and the alphabetic size drills to go with them (N and U).
>
> So, tonight I made some holes in some scrap material, for practice.
> I expected the bolt to fit very tightly, but nope! They go through easily.
> Not too loose, but not
> tight. Same with both sizes.
> Then, for comparison, I made a hole with a regular 3/8" drill bit, and the
> results were similar,
> if not a bit tighter!
>
> Am I doing something wrong, or is the difference supposed to be that
> subtle?
>
> Here's how I made the holes: started with small drill bit and replaced it
> with a large one. Drill
> hole and repeat.
>
> Below is the sequence for each final size.
>
> Hole for AN5 (5/16"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", then N.
>
> Hole for AN6 (3/8"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", N, then U.
>
> Hole for AN6 (3/8"), no reamer: 1/8", 3/64", 1/4", N then 3/8"
>
> Note that the material was clamped to the drill press table all the time.
> I did have to lower the
> table one or two inches in order to mount the reamers. This is the only
> thing I can think could
> have thrown the process off track.
>
> One more question: to avoid the adjustment step, I could cut the reamer's
> shank. Does anyone see
> a problem with this?
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your toughts / comments / blank stares.
>
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> working on a concept of infinity applied to time.
>
>
> Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ?
> magasinage.yahoo.ca
>
>
>
Message 24
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> Hi Randy, have you tried Wicks Aircraft? I am in a
> Glastar project and we did order some from there.
> Bob S.
--- Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant"
> <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
>
> I contacted Crawford Products today to order some A5
> rivets (1604-0514) and found out the don't stock
> these anymore... They offered to special order some
> for me but the minimum order was 8000.
>
> Does anyone have another "cheap" contact for rivets
> for the 601XL?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Randy Bryant
> N344RB
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
Carlos:
For a 3/8 diameter AN6 bolt, the max diameter is .374 and the min is only
.371. Perhaps you can select AN6 bolts that run toward the maximum
diameter. The corresponding close tolerance bolt, AN 176, has a max
diameter slightly greater at .3742 and the minimum is .3737. For a 5/16 AN5
bolt you could substitute the close tolerance AN175. Again the minimum
diameter is larger for the close tolerance bolt. Bolt strength is
equivalent in each case.
George
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Sa" <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 6:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello, fellow listers
>
>
> Once again, I have managed to create problems where no one has created
before!
>
> I got reamers of the proper sizes (5/16" and 3/8") to drill the wing
attach plates (CH601-HD),
> and the alphabetic size drills to go with them (N and U).
>
> So, tonight I made some holes in some scrap material, for practice.
> I expected the bolt to fit very tightly, but nope! They go through easily.
Not too loose, but not
> tight. Same with both sizes.
> Then, for comparison, I made a hole with a regular 3/8" drill bit, and the
results were similar,
> if not a bit tighter!
>
> Am I doing something wrong, or is the difference supposed to be that
subtle?
>
> Here's how I made the holes: started with small drill bit and replaced it
with a large one. Drill
> hole and repeat.
>
> Below is the sequence for each final size.
>
> Hole for AN5 (5/16"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", then N.
>
> Hole for AN6 (3/8"): 1/8", 13/64", 1/4", N, then U.
>
> Hole for AN6 (3/8"), no reamer: 1/8", 3/64", 1/4", N then 3/8"
>
> Note that the material was clamped to the drill press table all the time.
I did have to lower the
> table one or two inches in order to mount the reamers. This is the only
thing I can think could
> have thrown the process off track.
>
> One more question: to avoid the adjustment step, I could cut the reamer's
shank. Does anyone see
> a problem with this?
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your toughts / comments / blank stares.
>
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> working on a concept of infinity applied to time.
>
>
> Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran ?
> magasinage.yahoo.ca
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: holes, drill bits, reamers and bolts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Ribb" <dan@danribb.com>
Check out this article. It really helped me out - especially the last 3
paragraphs.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/fhofmann/art_round_hole.html
I found this helpful too.
http://exp-aircraft.com/library/alexande/hardware.html
- Dan
> ----- Original Message -----
> Once again, I have managed to create problems ....
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
Message 27
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
Thanks Robert,
I checked Wick's, their price is $0.11 each for the 5/16" Avex (A5)
rivets...
When Crawford had them, they were selling them $46.00 per thousand and
$22.00 per thousand for the A4's... I ordered 4000 of the A4's from them
today... After doing the math, I think I'd be better off buying the minimum
order of 8000 of the A5's from Crawford, at $368.00 and maybe trying to
resale what I have left over... The A5's is where I'm really struggling
right now, as I'm fresh out of em'! and I need them before I can proceed
with my wings...
Thanks!
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "ROBERT SCEPPA" <rjscep@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A5 Rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
>
>> Hi Randy, have you tried Wicks Aircraft? I am in a
>> Glastar project and we did order some from there.
>> Bob S.
>
> --- Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant"
>> <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
>>
>> I contacted Crawford Products today to order some A5
>> rivets (1604-0514) and found out the don't stock
>> these anymore... They offered to special order some
>> for me but the minimum order was 8000.
>>
>> Does anyone have another "cheap" contact for rivets
>> for the 601XL?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Randy Bryant
>> N344RB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> browse
>> Subscriptions page,
>> FAQ,
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>>
>>
>> Admin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 28
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
How about the Zenith Aircraft Company, Mexico, Mo? I bet if you called them they
would sell and ship you any reasonable quantity.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL wings
> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
>
> I contacted Crawford Products today to order some A5 rivets (1604-0514) and found
out the don't stock these anymore... They offered to special order some
for me but the minimum order was 8000.
>
> Does anyone have another "cheap" contact for rivets for the 601XL?
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