---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/06/06: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:03 AM - Re: 912 water temp probe? Thilo please clarify (Fritz Gurschick) 2. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: 701 Dual stick mod (Larry) 3. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: 701 Dual stick mod (Bill Naumuk) 4. 07:29 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Scotchbrite (Garrou, Douglas) 5. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: 701 Dual stick mod (Paul Mulwitz) 6. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: 701 Dual stick mod (Bill Naumuk) 7. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: 701 Dual stick mod (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: 701 Dual stick mod (Dave) 9. 09:44 AM - arm rest cover (john butterfield) 10. 10:37 AM - Center Stick (Bill Naumuk) 11. 11:24 AM - Re: arm rest cover (Jack Russell) 12. 12:23 PM - Re: Fw: Re: Scotchbrite (Chuck Deiterich) 13. 01:19 PM - Scratch Building XL Wing Spars (HeatonHE@aol.com) 14. 01:21 PM - Re: Fw: Re: Scotchbrite (Ron Culver) 15. 02:46 PM - Re: 912 water temp probe? Is this correct ? (Fritz Gurschick) 16. 04:26 PM - Re: Scotchbrite (Tim Juhl) 17. 07:04 PM - EFIS / EIS combo units (Edward Moody II) 18. 07:30 PM - Re: EFIS / EIS combo units (Craig Payne) 19. 07:40 PM - Re: EFIS / EIS combo units (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 20. 09:44 PM - Re: EFIS / EIS combo units (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:03 AM PST US From: Fritz Gurschick Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 912 water temp probe? Thilo please clarify --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fritz Gurschick I think the best thing to do, is ask Thilo exactly what he ment. Thilo, your comment below, Are you implying a water temp gauge isn't needed if a CHT gauge is in the aircraft ? Fritz " However, it's not really needed, since the CHT probes are sufficient. Best regards Thilo Kind" Dave wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" I think you misread his response, the water temp gage is needed, however Rotax uses an installation point on the cylinder head that does not directly contact the water/coolant but reads the temperature of the water jacket. Only the cylinder heads are water cooled on a Rotax engine, not the cylinder sleeves or block. I hope clarification this helps. Dave 601-HD 912ULS -----Original Message----- Thilo says, " it's not really needed". I realize that "experimental" and "standard" category are not one and the same. However some "inspectors" seem to overlap the regulations when doing an airworthiness inspection. I know when they inspected my 701 (liqiud cooled) they wanted "certain" gauges. FAR 91.205 Standard Category, Instrument and Equipment Requirements states: Temperature gauge for each liquid cooled engine. Are you folks under the understanding that the CHT can replace a water temp gauge ? I, personally, would not have flown my liquid cooled engine without a "water temp" gauge even though I had both CHT and EGT gauges. --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:22 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" It certainly is a case of "to each his own". However, with the dual sticks properly curved and not straight it is a very easy task to get in and out. A "C" bend allows your right foot/leg to easily pass the stick when getting in and out. Same thing applies for the passenger side. And, my passenger side is pinned for easy removal. I don't like the passenger having access to the stick unless training. When I flew in the passenger seat in Mexico with Roger, I found when Roger was flying I had to keep my left leg as far right as possible in order not to interfere with his movements. It was very uncomfortable and unnatural. This is especially bad for tall people. When I was flying, I found it to be unnatural and again uncomfortable to use my left hand. He had to keep his right leg held to the his left. Either way the plane is very easy to fly. I just think the dual sticks offer more ease of use and are certainly more natural in placement. A center stick is sorta like putting the steering wheel in the center of your car, great for mail carriers. I certainly wouldn't want to drive that way. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sinclair" Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair > > For what it's worth > > My 701 has the stock center stick. A friend that is building a Rans S-6, > and > that has their standard dual stick told me to try his on for size today. > Trying > to get my leg around that stick (and not being quite as limber as I was > when I > was a tad younger), while not impossible, definitely makes me appreciate > not > having to maneuver around that stick every time I want to get in or out. > Also my > daughter that flies with me regularly has some physical handicaps that > would > likely make it a real chore for her to enter or exit the airplane trying > to get > past the dual stick setup. Something to keep in mind if there should ever > be the > need to make a fast exit from the aircraft in an emergency situation. I > wouldn't > trade the center stick for duals in mine for anything. Besides, it is > quite > comfortable to operate. > > Mike Sinclair N701TD > >> >> From: "george may" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 11:49 AM >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod >> All- >> I may regret it later, but it the responses seem to favor the center >> stick for access reasons. I've decided to go with the original design >> arrangement. I guess it will be a while before I can provide a builder's >> report. >> Bill > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/328 - Release Date: 5/1/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:22 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sinclair" Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 10:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair > After sleeping on it, I realized that it doesn't matter whether the stick is in the center or between my legs, I'm still going to have to learn how to fly all over again, as will anyone who has always flown a yoke. From left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle to the other way around. From X amount of backpressure for a C150/152 or Y amount of backpressure for a C172 to rotate, or, from first flight reports, B amount of backpressure for a Zenith. Wing in the basement instead of wing in the attic. If I go with a WW Corvair, left rudder to track the centerline vs right. I can't believe it took me this long to put it all together. My tactile stimulus/response has been conditioned over the last 30+ years for exactly the opposite inputs necessary to fly my Zenith. Pride, be damned. I'm going to see if I can talk a CFI I know who has aerobatic experience into teaching me how to fly my own plane. I can (For the most part) make a Cessna do what I want it to, but all my experience is now less than worthless- it's a detriment, unless I fly solo from the right seat. Complain all you want, the FAA and insurance companies have a leg to stand on mandating transition training. At least in my case. Bill do not archive? > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite From: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" Chuck: I can't resist revisiting this issue. Do you have a citation or reference supporting the claim that silicon carbide Scotchbrite pads should not be used on aluminum? I ask principally because the Scotchbrite people actually recommend one of their gray pads (and maybe others) for "finishing stainless steel *and aluminum*" including "light oxide removal." http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs666yY4COrrrrQ- Note that the pad in question (the 7440 series) is, as you note, a gray pad with a silicon carbide abrasive: http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/electronics_mfg/esm/node_GSN1BGFPYDgs/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_DPB1Q1MJ7Nge/bgel_0GN1N5NLFGbl/gvel_2B4W8PPJ9Xgl/theme_us_electronicsesm_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html I don't see, in the Scotchbrite people's response to you, that they said not to use the silicon carbide pads on aluminum. That would seem to contradict their website. Did one of their people tell you that? If so, did he/she offer a rationale? Cheers Doug Garrou Project801 Bold and unrepentant user of ALL forms of Scotchbrite pads, and defender of the use of silicon carbide in Scotchbrite pads, baby food, and Peeps marshmallow candy. www.garrou.com -----Original Message----- Time: 08:52:35 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" Do not use silicon carbide based Scotchbrite on aluminum. Below is a note I sent a while back. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Deiterich" Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite > To really get the story straight, I asked 3M about ScotchBrite, their > answer: > > The green Scotchbrite (#74)contains approximately aluminum oxide mineral > (220x to 320x) that is resin bonded to the nylon fibers. It will cut most > surfaces including aluminum. > > Other Scotchbrite > > S ULF, S VLF and S MED use silicon carbide, the others use aluminum oxide. > > Light Duty Cleansing Pad 7445 048011-16976-7 - white - > Ultra-Fine Hand Pad 7448 048011-04028-8 - gray S ULF > General Purpose Hand Pad 7447 048011-04029-5 - maroon A VFN > Production Hand Pad 8447 048011-24037-4 - maroon A VFN > Blending Hand Pad 7446 048011-04051-6 - gray S MED > Heavy Duty Hand Pad 7440 048011-04050-9 - tan A MED > Multi-Flex Abrasive Sheet 051131-07521-4 - dark maroon A VFN > 051131-07522-1 - gray S ULF > 051131-07523-8 - gold A ULF > Wood Finishing Roll 7745 051131-07745-4 - gold - > Clean & Finish Roll 048011-00264-4 - maroon A MED > 048011-00265-1 - maroon A FIN > 048011-00266-8 - maroon A VFN > 048011-00270-5 - gray S VFN > 048011-00274-3 - maroon A MED > 048011-00275-0 - maroon A FIN > 048011-00276-7 - maroon A VFN > Scrubbing Sponge 74 048011-20688-7 - green - - > > Chuck D. > N701TX ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:42 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Bill, I commend you on your attitude and conclusions. I think it is a great idea to do transition training and to find a good instructor to help you. On the other hand, I think you are a little too pessimistic on how difficult it will be. For starters, I think you should start thinking and flying by visual references rather than by thinking about control input pressure. All planes fly about the same when considering the pitch, roll, and yaw attitude even though the control levers and pressures might differ considerably. (There are huge differences when you are flying a heavy plane vs. a light one, but all the planes you are discussing are light ones.) I understand transitioning from yoke to stick is very natural while the people who have flown sticks and want to learn yokes have a bit of a problem to overcome. I don't think it makes any difference whether it is a center stick or side stick except for which hand you use. If you sit in the left seat, you will need to change hands, but this is similar to flying your old familiar plane in the other front seat. You can learn the stick movements and the visual reference stuff by flying simulators on your PC. Microsoft flight simulator is an excellent tool for this. Just get yourself a joystick rather than a yoke. The cost of the joystick and simulator software will be less than an hour of instruction in a real plane and you can fly it for as many hours as you care to. I think you will find the transition is a real effort but not a particularly hard or lengthy one. Good luck, Paul XL wings > After sleeping on it, I realized that it doesn't matter whether the >stick is in the center or between my legs, I'm still going to have to learn >how to fly all over again, as will anyone who has always flown a yoke. From >left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle to the other way >around. From X amount of backpressure for a C150/152 or Y amount of >backpressure for a C172 to rotate, or, from first flight reports, B amount >of backpressure for a Zenith. Wing in the basement instead of wing in the >attic. If I go with a WW Corvair, left rudder to track the centerline vs >right. I can't believe it took me this long to put it all together. My >tactile stimulus/response has been conditioned over the last 30+ years for >exactly the opposite inputs necessary to fly my Zenith. > Pride, be damned. I'm going to see if I can talk a CFI I know who has >aerobatic experience into teaching me how to fly my own plane. I can (For >the most part) make a Cessna do what I want it to, but all my experience is >now less than worthless- it's a detriment, unless I fly solo from the right >seat. > Complain all you want, the FAA and insurance companies have a leg to >stand on mandating transition training. At least in my case. > > > Bill > - ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:01 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Paul- My point is that I've been conditioned over the past 30+ years to react like Pavlov's dog, and I don't want to be salivating while chewing on an extension cord. I'm not being pessimistic, just realistic. After all the work I've put in, I'm not going to take a chance pranging the plane. As I said before, pride be damned. Cheap insurance. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 10:44 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > Hi Bill, > > I commend you on your attitude and conclusions. I think it is a > great idea to do transition training and to find a good instructor to help > you. > > On the other hand, I think you are a little too pessimistic on how > difficult it will be. > > For starters, I think you should start thinking and flying by visual > references rather than by thinking about control input pressure. All > planes fly about the same when considering the pitch, roll, and yaw > attitude even though the control levers and pressures might differ > considerably. (There are huge differences when you are flying a > heavy plane vs. a light one, but all the planes you are discussing > are light ones.) > > I understand transitioning from yoke to stick is very natural while > the people who have flown sticks and want to learn yokes have a bit > of a problem to overcome. I don't think it makes any difference > whether it is a center stick or side stick except for which hand you > use. If you sit in the left seat, you will need to change hands, but > this is similar to flying your old familiar plane in the other front seat. > > You can learn the stick movements and the visual reference stuff by > flying simulators on your PC. Microsoft flight simulator is an > excellent tool for this. Just get yourself a joystick rather than a > yoke. The cost of the joystick and simulator software will be less > than an hour of instruction in a real plane and you can fly it for as > many hours as you care to. > > I think you will find the transition is a real effort but not a > particularly hard or lengthy one. > > Good luck, > > Paul > XL wings > > >> After sleeping on it, I realized that it doesn't matter whether the >>stick is in the center or between my legs, I'm still going to have to >>learn >>how to fly all over again, as will anyone who has always flown a yoke. >>From >>left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle to the other way >>around. From X amount of backpressure for a C150/152 or Y amount of >>backpressure for a C172 to rotate, or, from first flight reports, B amount >>of backpressure for a Zenith. Wing in the basement instead of wing in the >>attic. If I go with a WW Corvair, left rudder to track the centerline vs >>right. I can't believe it took me this long to put it all together. My >>tactile stimulus/response has been conditioned over the last 30+ years for >>exactly the opposite inputs necessary to fly my Zenith. >> Pride, be damned. I'm going to see if I can talk a CFI I know who has >>aerobatic experience into teaching me how to fly my own plane. I can (For >>the most part) make a Cessna do what I want it to, but all my experience >>is >>now less than worthless- it's a detriment, unless I fly solo from the >>right >>seat. >> Complain all you want, the FAA and insurance companies have a leg to >>stand on mandating transition training. At least in my case. >> >> >> Bill >> > > - > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:58 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Ya I see both sides of this argument and I fretted long and hard over this very issue...I.e first time with a stick, low wing throttle/yoke hands reversed. I can say the 601 was so easy to fly I was quite surprised. Having said that...Mt Rv 7 is now equppied with left hand throttle just like the Zodiac I been flying for 400 hours.. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Paul- My point is that I've been conditioned over the past 30+ years to react like Pavlov's dog, and I don't want to be salivating while chewing on an extension cord. I'm not being pessimistic, just realistic. After all the work I've put in, I'm not going to take a chance pranging the plane. As I said before, pride be damned. Cheap insurance. Bill ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:30 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Naumuk" Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Dual stick mod > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Paul- > My point is that I've been conditioned over the past 30+ years to react > like Pavlov's dog, and I don't want to be salivating while chewing on an > extension cord. > I'm not being pessimistic, just realistic. After all the work I've put > in, I'm not going to take a chance pranging the plane. As I said before, > pride be damned. > Cheap insurance. I'm a low time newly minted pilot with time mostly on a clapped out old 152. When I had the chance to fly other aircaft the stick vs yoke issue was the only thing that didn't give me any trouble. I've no idea why but I didn't even have to think about it, that one aspect of control was a no-brainer. I think transistion training into anything new is a grand idea though. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:55 AM PST US From: john butterfield Subject: Zenith-List: arm rest cover --> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield hi list i have read that some people are using a hing on the arm rest cover and others (and plans) say to rivet it together. It seems it would be stronger if riveted, but if a hinge is useful, i would use it. seems that in either case, access to the stick is adequate. john butterfield 601XL, corvair ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:29 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Center Stick --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" All- 'Nuff said. I've received enough information to make my personal = decision. Next topic........... Bill do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:50 AM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: arm rest cover --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell John: I used screws and nut plates to mount the armrest but I also moved the upper elevator turnbuckle to the rear of the plane at the upper elev horn to have easier access. I don't remember if the rudder turnbuckles were in the back in the plans but they are also on the horns on my xl. Much easier to safety wire it back there. Jack in Los Osos CA --> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield hi list i have read that some people are using a hing on the arm rest cover and others (and plans) say to rivet it together. It seems it would be stronger if riveted, but if a hinge is useful, i would use it. seems that in either case, access to the stick is adequate. john butterfield 601XL, corvair Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:05 PM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" Doug, See chart on page 8 of Zenair News #84 September/October 1994 sent by Zenith Aircraft Co. of Mexico, MO. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrou, Douglas" Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 9:07 AM Subject: RE: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" > > Chuck: > > I can't resist revisiting this issue. > > Do you have a citation or reference supporting the claim that silicon carbide Scotchbrite pads should not be used on aluminum? I ask principally because the Scotchbrite people actually recommend one of their gray pads (and maybe others) for "finishing stainless steel *and aluminum*" including "light oxide removal." > > http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs666yY4CO rrrrQ- > > Note that the pad in question (the 7440 series) is, as you note, a gray pad with a silicon carbide abrasive: > > http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/electronics_mfg/esm/node_GSN1BGFPYD gs/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_DPB1Q1MJ7Nge/bgel_0GN1N5NLFGbl/gvel_2B4W8PPJ9Xgl/ theme_us_electronicsesm_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html > > I don't see, in the Scotchbrite people's response to you, that they said not to use the silicon carbide pads on aluminum. That would seem to contradict their website. Did one of their people tell you that? If so, did he/she offer a rationale? > > Cheers > Doug Garrou > Project801 > Bold and unrepentant user of ALL forms of Scotchbrite pads, and defender of the use of silicon carbide in Scotchbrite pads, baby food, and Peeps marshmallow candy. > www.garrou.com > > -----Original Message----- > > Time: 08:52:35 AM PST US > From: "Chuck Deiterich" > Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" > > Do not use silicon carbide based Scotchbrite on aluminum. > Below is a note I sent a while back. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Deiterich" > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite > > > > To really get the story straight, I asked 3M about ScotchBrite, their > > answer: > > > > The green Scotchbrite (#74)contains approximately aluminum oxide mineral > > (220x to 320x) that is resin bonded to the nylon fibers. It will cut most > > surfaces including aluminum. > > > > Other Scotchbrite > > > > S ULF, S VLF and S MED use silicon carbide, the others use aluminum oxide. > > > > Light Duty Cleansing Pad 7445 048011-16976-7 - white - > > Ultra-Fine Hand Pad 7448 048011-04028-8 - gray S ULF > > General Purpose Hand Pad 7447 048011-04029-5 - maroon A VFN > > Production Hand Pad 8447 048011-24037-4 - maroon A VFN > > Blending Hand Pad 7446 048011-04051-6 - gray S MED > > Heavy Duty Hand Pad 7440 048011-04050-9 - tan A MED > > Multi-Flex Abrasive Sheet 051131-07521-4 - dark maroon A VFN > > 051131-07522-1 - gray S ULF > > 051131-07523-8 - gold A ULF > > Wood Finishing Roll 7745 051131-07745-4 - gold - > > Clean & Finish Roll 048011-00264-4 - maroon A MED > > 048011-00265-1 - maroon A FIN > > 048011-00266-8 - maroon A VFN > > 048011-00270-5 - gray S VFN > > 048011-00274-3 - maroon A MED > > 048011-00275-0 - maroon A FIN > > 048011-00276-7 - maroon A VFN > > Scrubbing Sponge 74 048011-20688-7 - green - - > > > > Chuck D. > > N701TX > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:42 PM PST US From: HeatonHE@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Scratch Building XL Wing Spars --> Zenith-List message posted by: HeatonHE@aol.com Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Culver" I checked that reference Chuck and it indicates about S class pads. On the 3m site the only aluminum oxide that is listed as medium or finer is the maroon which is medium.No aluminum oxide Fine grade seems to be other than silicon carbide ..So what is to be used for fine polishing? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Deiterich" Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" > > Doug, > See chart on page 8 of Zenair News #84 September/October 1994 sent by > Zenith > Aircraft Co. of Mexico, MO. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Garrou, Douglas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 9:07 AM > Subject: RE: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" >> >> Chuck: >> >> I can't resist revisiting this issue. >> >> Do you have a citation or reference supporting the claim that silicon > carbide Scotchbrite pads should not be used on aluminum? I ask > principally > because the Scotchbrite people actually recommend one of their gray pads > (and maybe others) for "finishing stainless steel *and aluminum*" > including > "light oxide removal." >> >> > http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs666yY4CO > rrrrQ- >> >> Note that the pad in question (the 7440 series) is, as you note, a gray > pad with a silicon carbide abrasive: >> >> > http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/electronics_mfg/esm/node_GSN1BGFPYD > gs/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_DPB1Q1MJ7Nge/bgel_0GN1N5NLFGbl/gvel_2B4W8PPJ9Xgl/ > theme_us_electronicsesm_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html >> >> I don't see, in the Scotchbrite people's response to you, that they said > not to use the silicon carbide pads on aluminum. That would seem to > contradict their website. Did one of their people tell you that? If so, > did > he/she offer a rationale? >> >> Cheers >> Doug Garrou >> Project801 >> Bold and unrepentant user of ALL forms of Scotchbrite pads, and defender > of the use of silicon carbide in Scotchbrite pads, baby food, and Peeps > marshmallow candy. >> www.garrou.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> Time: 08:52:35 AM PST US >> From: "Chuck Deiterich" >> Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite >> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" >> >> Do not use silicon carbide based Scotchbrite on aluminum. >> Below is a note I sent a while back. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chuck Deiterich" >> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:39 PM >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Scotchbrite >> >> >> > To really get the story straight, I asked 3M about ScotchBrite, their >> > answer: >> > >> > The green Scotchbrite (#74)contains approximately aluminum oxide >> > mineral >> > (220x to 320x) that is resin bonded to the nylon fibers. It will cut > most >> > surfaces including aluminum. >> > >> > Other Scotchbrite >> > >> > S ULF, S VLF and S MED use silicon carbide, the others use aluminum > oxide. >> > >> > Light Duty Cleansing Pad 7445 048011-16976-7 - white - >> > Ultra-Fine Hand Pad 7448 048011-04028-8 - gray S ULF >> > General Purpose Hand Pad 7447 048011-04029-5 - maroon A VFN >> > Production Hand Pad 8447 048011-24037-4 - maroon A VFN >> > Blending Hand Pad 7446 048011-04051-6 - gray S MED >> > Heavy Duty Hand Pad 7440 048011-04050-9 - tan A MED >> > Multi-Flex Abrasive Sheet 051131-07521-4 - dark maroon A VFN >> > 051131-07522-1 - gray S ULF >> > 051131-07523-8 - gold A ULF >> > Wood Finishing Roll 7745 051131-07745-4 - gold - >> > Clean & Finish Roll 048011-00264-4 - maroon A MED >> > 048011-00265-1 - maroon A FIN >> > 048011-00266-8 - maroon A VFN >> > 048011-00270-5 - gray S VFN >> > 048011-00274-3 - maroon A MED >> > 048011-00275-0 - maroon A FIN >> > 048011-00276-7 - maroon A VFN >> > Scrubbing Sponge 74 048011-20688-7 - green - - >> > >> > Chuck D. >> > N701TX >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:40 PM PST US From: Fritz Gurschick Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 912 water temp probe? Is this correct ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fritz Gurschick After thinking about this all day and re-reading and re-reading the messages, what threw me off was the CHT reference. I understand the head ports do not extent into the water jacket. You use this port to pick up the "WATER TEMP" even though the probe is not touching the water-----even though Thilo referenced these as CHT probes the gauge will be marked, "water temp"-------- is this correct- Fritz Fritz Gurschick wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fritz Gurschick I think the best thing to do, is ask Thilo exactly what he ment. Thilo, your comment below, Are you implying a water temp gauge isn't needed if a CHT gauge is in the aircraft ? Fritz " However, it's not really needed, since the CHT probes are sufficient. Best regards Thilo Kind" Dave wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" I think you misread his response, the water temp gage is needed, however Rotax uses an installation point on the cylinder head that does not directly contact the water/coolant but reads the temperature of the water jacket. Only the cylinder heads are water cooled on a Rotax engine, not the cylinder sleeves or block. I hope clarification this helps. Dave 601-HD 912ULS -----Original Message----- Thilo says, " it's not really needed". I realize that "experimental" and "standard" category are not one and the same. However some "inspectors" seem to overlap the regulations when doing an airworthiness inspection. I know when they inspected my 701 (liqiud cooled) they wanted "certain" gauges. FAR 91.205 Standard Category, Instrument and Equipment Requirements states: Temperature gauge for each liquid cooled engine. Are you folks under the understanding that the CHT can replace a water temp gauge ? I, personally, would not have flown my liquid cooled engine without a "water temp" gauge even though I had both CHT and EGT gauges. --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2/min or less. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scotchbrite From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" I just checked the 3M website and found the following that might be helpful - Scotchbrite hand pads with Aluminum Oxide abrasive are available in medium and fine PN 7447 and 7448 respectively. For a really fine finish I suggest you try 3M Softback Sanding Sponges - these use Aluminum oxide and are thin, dense sponges with abrasive on one side. Microfine is PN 4181 Ultrafine is PN 4182. I've used the softback sponges with great success. There are a number of discount autobody finishing supplies outlets on the net. Try entering 3M Softback Sanding Sponges in Google and see what comes up. Tim Juhl -------- CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - awaiting kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33184#33184 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:16 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Zenith-List: EFIS / EIS combo units --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Has anyone in the group used any of the EFIS / EIS combo units? If so, = which brand and model? Any problems and were they solved? Particularly, = has anyone had good results with the Dynon D-100 or D-180? How about = Advanced Flight Systems 3400 or 3500? I would like to use a combination = unit backed by steam gauges for ASI, Tach, and electric turn = coordinator. My gps can serve well enough as the back-up ALT. Any = constructive comments and advice are welcome. Advice based on actual = experience would be even better. I want a cross country VFR capability, = not an IFR ready panel. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:10 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EFIS / EIS combo units --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" I have one of these (but have only flown it around my desk): http://www.mglavionics.co.za/ (Manufacture) http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html (US Distributor) The dealer and manufacturer have been *very* supportive of my odd-ball requests. Brandon Tucker has one too but I am pretty sure he has not flown yet. Nice large display but only black and white. Less expensive than the color units. I finally got to see one of the Dynon units in direct sunlight at Sun-N-Fun. Pretty good IMHO. I also spoke with AFS at the show and looked at the 3400/3500. Very new (I don't think they ship until June). The head of the company say that they use a much faster CPU than Dynon and that their display is brighter. Their previous engine-monitor-only product is well regarded and I like its voice announcements of alarms (also in the 3000 series I believe). I would expect some teething pains with the 3000 series. Not a problem if you won't be flying until later in the year. All of these units allow you to update their software. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:49 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EFIS / EIS combo units From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I have flown my HDS for 400 hours and am finishing up an IFR RV 7a complete with Dynon D100 and EMS D10...They look great but have not flown them yet. Purely personally I think an EFIS for a 601 is way overkill, especially if you have steam guage backup. The EMS however maybe a good fit as the total cost (as long as it is a good fit for your engine...all the sensors available etc) could be similar to a steam guage setup...certainly having fuel consumption information has been one of the most useful tools I have had in the cockpit,....I had a JPI flowscan. Anyway, back to the EFIS. With my extensive flight experience I can tell you a much more useful toy would be a Pictoral pilot (autopilot). I mean if you think about it, why do you want an artificial horizon and DG?....Yeah I know you could inadvertantly stray into bad weather but if you had an A/P you simply hit the engage knob and the A/P will immediately level the wings. You then punch in the nearest button on your handheld and the GPS will drive the A/P to take you anywhere you want to go....Or turn the knob to dial up a new heading and the thing will turn the airplane around for you with better control than you could probably manage. Thus the A/H and DG are simply not used. Even better the Pictoral pilot has a turn coordinator head that actually works (unlike real turn coordinators), I.e the TC always agrees with the real horizon....So junk that steam guage as well. I can tell you for a cross country airplane an A/P will be just stinking wonderful, much better than hand flying...The EFIS just gives you another screen that you'll never use to be honest 'cus you'll be looking out the window, but you will still have to hand fly it...With the A/P you can keep looking out the window cus the GPS will be flying the airplane....Sweet Frank HDS 400 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 6:59 PM Subject: Zenith-List: EFIS / EIS combo units --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Has anyone in the group used any of the EFIS / EIS combo units? If so, = which brand and model? Any problems and were they solved? Particularly, = has anyone had good results with the Dynon D-100 or D-180? How about = Advanced Flight Systems 3400 or 3500? I would like to use a combination = unit backed by steam gauges for ASI, Tach, and electric turn = coordinator. My gps can serve well enough as the back-up ALT. Any = constructive comments and advice are welcome. Advice based on actual = experience would be even better. I want a cross country VFR capability, = not an IFR ready panel. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:09 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EFIS / EIS combo units --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Frank, Your autopilot solution is great for someone willing to bet his life and his passenger's life that some computer software can fly a plane better than he can. For me, a good gyro or two sounds a lot more attractive. Paul XL wings do not archive >Yeah I know you could inadvertantly stray into bad weather but if >you had an A/P you simply hit the engage knob and the A/P will >immediately level the wings. You then punch in the nearest button on >your handheld and the GPS will drive the A/P to take you anywhere you >want to go....Or turn the knob to dial up a new heading and the thing >will turn the airplane around for you with better control than you could >probably manage. ---------------------------------------------