---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/27/06: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:29 AM - Welcome to the neighborhood! (Tom and Bren Henderson) 2. 04:54 AM - Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Robin Bellach) 3. 05:08 AM - 4 Wing Lockers (was Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine) (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 4. 06:17 AM - another Prop for sale (gary k) 5. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Edward Moody II) 6. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Edward Moody II) 7. 06:31 AM - Re: AnywhereMap (gary k) 8. 07:08 AM - Re: Welcome to the neighborhood! (jsimons2) 9. 07:20 AM - Re: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders (Bill Naumuk) 10. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: Zodiac 601 "twitchy" (Big Gee) 11. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: Zodiac 601 "twitchy" (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 11:00 AM - New Builder (Hudsonmusic1@aol.com) 13. 12:30 PM - Re: New Builder (n801bh@netzero.com) 14. 12:31 PM - Re: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders (Edward Moody II) 15. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: Zodiac 601 "twitchy" (Edward Moody II) 16. 01:15 PM - Re: Re: Zodiac 601 "twitchy" (LarryMcFarland) 17. 01:16 PM - Re: New Builder (LarryMcFarland) 18. 01:56 PM - Re: Riveting oneself into a corner. (Gary Gower) 19. 03:46 PM - 701 Flaperon Arm Separation (Stanley Challgren) 20. 03:50 PM - 601 XL Quick Build Kit (Ken Arnold) 21. 04:07 PM - Re: another Prop for sale (Craig Payne) 22. 05:19 PM - Re: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders (Bill Naumuk) 23. 06:08 PM - Re: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders (Edward Moody II) 24. 06:20 PM - Flaps (Randy Stout) 25. 06:31 PM - Zenith CH801 Autopilot (Chris In Madison) 26. 07:52 PM - Re: Flaps (Paul Mulwitz) 27. 09:56 PM - Re:Riveting oneself into a corner (Dave and Pam Fisher) 28. 10:02 PM - Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Brandon Tucker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:05 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom and Bren Henderson Congratulations on the choice to build from scratch! I'm relatively new to Zenith aircraft and this forum as well. I started building a 601XL from scratch about four months ago. It should say something about the simplicity of the design, that I've completed the entire tail and 3/4 of the fuselage in those three months. And that was from sheets of aluminum! :) I may open a can of worms here, but the assembly instructions suck (It's called Grammar people!) and The prints are borderline at best. Maybe it's too many years in precision fabrication, but I was FAR less than impressed. That said: the airplane is fantastic! (Where else can you find a complete airframe for less than $2300 in materials?!) I've only been at the controls a few times, but I can hardly bring myself to get back in a 172. lol Rely on the prints and a few basics from the instructions and you'll do fine. I've found the answer to any question I have had on one of the many builders' web sites out there. Access to the press brakes will be invaluable, but a word of warning. I've never met an HVAC mechanic that knew what a Bend Radius was. Make sure they use the correct tooling, or wrap the punch tip to reach the correct radius. (FYI: The first few skins they screw up would buy you a cheap 48" brake at $100 a sheet for aluminum.) Again, welcome to the neighborhood, and don't let my negativity about the plans influence your decision. The 601 really is a great little plane. jsimons2 wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jsimons2" Maybe I should introduce myself first. I've been lurking around here since January and have really learned a lot just by reading the forums every day. I'm a 52 (almost 53) year old electrical inspector who has had the flying bug since about 1970, but real life got in the way of doing anything about it. I started on this serious quest to get an aircraft and a ppl about 2 years ago (when it finally hit me that my kids were grown, gone and I didn't have to "pay" for them anymore). My brother in law is a commercial pilot working for LabCorp and has taken me up a few times, mostly to make sure my dream has not died. I have considered the XL and still am. I just like the looks of the slightly cantilevered wings on the HDS. I want to build a plane that is comfortable, has plenty of speed for cross country and economical to operate (hence, considering the Corvair conversion). The wing baggage lockers was one of the main reasons for considering the HDS over the XL, however, speed and handleing is of more importance. I have yet to begin flight training but have been around aircraft a good part of my life (Navy, VietNam vet working on flight deck of an aircraft carrier in catapults and arresting gear). I have many construction skills from being an electrician for over 28 years, so trying to build an aircraft and reading blueprints doesn't scare me. By the way, I won't need a sheet metal break to build my plane. I already have 3 heating and air shops offering me the use of their 8' commercial breaks just to see an aircraft built. Lol, lucky me. I've learned a lot here and hope to learn even more as my building progresses. Thanks to all. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36763#36763 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:56 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> How much bigger are the HDS wing lockers? I would think they would be about the same size except for being slightly deeper in the thicker wings. And if one were using only two wing tanks instead of four, could one not have four wing lockers instead of two in the XL? I have four 12-gal. tanks and two wing lockers in my XL, but if I had it to do over, since I think the latest tank design is 15 gal, I would probably opt for two tanks and four lockers if possible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jsimons2" Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:20 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jsimons2" > > Maybe I should introduce myself first. I've been lurking around here since > January and have really learned a lot just by reading the forums every > day. I'm a 52 (almost 53) year old electrical inspector who has had the > flying bug since about 1970, but real life got in the way of doing > anything about it. I started on this serious quest to get an aircraft and > a ppl about 2 years ago (when it finally hit me that my kids were grown, > gone and I didn't have to "pay" for them anymore). My brother in law is a > commercial pilot working for LabCorp and has taken me up a few times, > mostly to make sure my dream has not died. > > I have considered the XL and still am. I just like the looks of the > slightly cantilevered wings on the HDS. I want to build a plane that is > comfortable, has plenty of speed for cross country and economical to > operate (hence, considering the Corvair conversion). The wing baggage > lockers was one of the main reasons for considering the HDS over the XL, > however, speed and handleing is of more importance. I have yet to begin > flight training but have been around aircraft a good part of my life > (Navy, VietNam vet working on flight deck of an aircraft carrier in > catapults and arresting gear). I have many construction skills from being > an electrician for over 28 years, so trying to build an aircraft and > reading blueprints doesn't scare me. > > By the way, I won't need a sheet metal break to build my plane. I already > have 3 heating and air shops offering me the use of their 8' commercial > breaks just to see an aircraft built. Lol, lucky me. > > I've learned a lot here and hope to learn even more as my building > progresses. Thanks to all. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36763#36763 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:33 AM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 4 Wing Lockers (was Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Hello All: Four lockers is an interesting idea...........can anyone venture a guess on the maximum load available in a 4-locker configuration? I think there is a 40 pound limit per locker on the current locker design. Another thought - since the XL wing is so much thinner than the HD wing, does 4 lockers make sense? Will they be used? Inquiring minds want to know..... Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601xl N458XL (reserved) do not archive In a message dated 5/27/2006 7:56:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, 601zv@ritternet.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> How much bigger are the HDS wing lockers? I would think they would be about the same size except for being slightly deeper in the thicker wings. And if one were using only two wing tanks instead of four, could one not have four wing lockers instead of two in the XL? I have four 12-gal. tanks and two wing lockers in my XL, but if I had it to do over, since I think the latest tank design is 15 gal, I would probably opt for two tanks and four lockers if possible. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:28 AM PST US From: "gary k" Subject: Zenith-List: another Prop for sale --> Zenith-List message posted by: "gary k" Blue, 2-blade composite (wood core) Prince prop. 68" X 62", SAE1 pattern. May be good for Corvair? Out performs Warp, covers wide range of pitch settings w/o having to change pitch. Can't say enough about Lonnie Prince and his props, awesome. About 40 hours on prop, still like new. Used on Stratus but seems to be incompatible with 2.2:1 redrive. $750 obo (paid $1000 and well worth it). gary ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:28 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" My impression (not an expert opinion by any means) is that leading edge wing lockers would not be a good idea. Better ask the designer or the factory before giving that idea any serious consideration. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> > >And if one were using only two wing tanks instead of four, could one not >have four > wing lockers instead of two in the XL? I have four 12-gal. tanks and two > wing lockers in my XL, but if I had it to do over, since I think the > latest > tank design is 15 gal, I would probably opt for two tanks and four lockers > if possible. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:28 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" The Zodiac 601XL offers wing lockers as an option even with the two long range (15 gallon) tanks, in fact even with four 12 gallon tanks if that floats your boat. The plane is reputed to burn about 5 gph at 125 IAS with the Jabiru 3300 and a Sensenich wood 2-blade prop (don't recall the length and pitch but it is the recommended prop with the FWF kit). The reputed top flat out speed is around 140 mph IAS, but for economy, 5 gph @ 125 mph (25 mpg) is hard to criticize. Find me a hybrid go cart that will do that on the road. All these figures are with tricycle gear and wheel pants. Only the elevator response felt twichy to me in the demo at the factory and it was not extreme. The rest of the flight control response was brisk but not twichy in the least IMHO. It climbed at 900 fpm at about 95 IAS with two of us on board (about 370 lbs. total). Takeoff roll was about 500 feet or so (no flaps on takeoff). The wings are fully cantilevered, hence no struts. The term I think you were intending was dihedral. The 601 HD and HDS have a flat center wing stub and the dihedral begins at the end of the that. The 601XL has dihedral all the way from the fuselage out. The sheet metal shop equipment will come in handy a few times, particularly if you choose to make any mods or certainly if you build from scratch. If you buy a kit, most of the cutting and almost all the bending is already done. All of the welding is done for you in the kit form. Hope this info helps, Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jsimons2" > > I have considered the XL and still am. I just like the looks of the > slightly cantilevered wings on the HDS. I want to build a plane that is > comfortable, has plenty of speed for cross country and economical to > operate (hence, considering the Corvair conversion). The wing baggage > lockers was one of the main reasons for considering the HDS over the XL, > however, speed and handleing is of more importance. > By the way, I won't > need a sheet metal break to build my plane. I already have 3 heating and > air shops offering me the use of their 8' commercial breaks just to see an > aircraft built. Lol, lucky me. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:04 AM PST US From: "gary k" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: AnywhereMap --> Zenith-List message posted by: "gary k" I think the features are great, and with a new PDA the speed and brightness are good. The stylus can be tricky in turbulence but has been manageable. I may be selling mine to consolidate the panel into one bigger piece of glass. I just bought a new iPaq (2950?) and new s/w update that is still good for a while. I have the StreetMap database too with cables setup for easy removal in car/plane. gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Offill Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:42 PM Subject: Zenith-List: AnywhereMap --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Danny Offill" Does anyone use the AnywhereMap software with a PDA while flying. If so please provide a pirep. I'm trying to decide to between the AnywhereMap with the Dell PDA or the Lorance 600c GPS. Thanks, Danny ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welcome to the neighborhood! From: "jsimons2" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jsimons2" Hehe, I guess that I'm lucky on this point also. One of the HVAC mechanics who has offered the use of his break is very familiar with bend radius. One of his employees has a side job of making the body parts for a couple of short track race car drivers using his break. I would imagine that some of the same calculations and bending are involved. He was the only one of the 3 HVAC shops who seemed to have any knowledge of bend radius. Btw, thanks for the concern. As a foot note, I only learned about bend radius by lurking around here for the last few months. Keep up all the great educational information! :D :D Access to the press brakes will be invaluable, but a word of warning. I've never met an HVAC mechanic that knew what a Bend Radius was. Make sure they use the correct tooling, or wrap the punch tip to reach the correct radius. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36763#36763[/quote] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36827#36827 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:03 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Jerome and all- Tom hit on the point that has been nagging at me for 3 years. Everything is relative, and everything's a tradeoff. I've never personally seen the quality of prints that other kit manufacturer's offer, so all I can judge Zenith prints against are what I work with every day- injection mold prints. If a designer makes a cumulative stack-up error of .0001"/laminate in a 100 pin connector mold, you can make $250K worth of junk in a heartbeat. I don't even want to get into problems with 3D CAD. On the other hand, I'm glad I'm building a Zenith instead of a Kitfox! I know there are some listers that are also familiar with Sonex and RV, so what they have to say about the quality of Zenith prints would carry more weight than the rest of us. I'm really interested to know, myself. From a functional standpoint, the Sonex was a better fit for my needs, but I just couldn't see proudly owning something that butt-ugly. (Sorry, Sonex people). After a lot of agonizing, I went with the HDS. Once again, tradeoffs. Performance is about the same as an XL The big selling point when I got into it was the SP eligibility of the XL. In the period since, we've found out the HDS is eligible, too. Two wing sections for the XL vs 3 for the HDS- advantage, XL. Spar length of 8' max for the HDS vs 12' for the XL- advantage, HDS. XL gear vs HDS gear- advantage XL. Simplicity of construction, flaps XL vs HDS full span aileron- advantage HDS. Since you're considering scratch-building, I'd say go for the HDS if you decide you want to. One thing you'll find in common with Zenith builders- it doesn't matter what version they're building, you can count on them if you need help. We bitch and moan and flog the value of different colors of Scotchbrite for weeks on end, but stop and look at the serial number on your print and divide that into the world population. From the speed of the replies I get from some of my e-mentors, I swear they have a computer in their workshop with an amplified "Ding" when e-mail comes in. Changing the subject, as soon as I'm offline I'll be wiring up my new "Garanger" and would like a performance report. I've always welded with my uncle's 240V Lincoln stick welder, but the latest HF flyer lists a 240V Flux welder #6271 that will also MIG with a gas tank for about $50 less. Any owner input appreciated. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom and Bren Henderson" Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 5:19 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood! > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom and Bren Henderson > > > Congratulations on the choice to build from scratch! > I may open a can of worms here, but the assembly instructions suck > (It's called Grammar people!) and The prints are borderline at best. > Maybe it's too many years in precision fabrication, but I was FAR less > than impressed. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36763#36763 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:31 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601 "twitchy" --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee Several times this morning I saw the term: "twithcy". Please explain how it is ment. Do you mean sensitive ? thank you Fritz---- Corvair Edward Moody II wrote Only the elevator response felt twichy to me in the demo at the factory and it was not extreme. The rest of the flight control response was brisk but not twichy in the least IMHO. It climbed at 900 fpm at about 95 IAS with two of us on board (about 370 lbs. total). Takeoff roll was about 500 feet or so (no flaps on takeoff). Hope this info helps, Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:07 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601 "twitchy" --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Fritz, By "Twitchy" I mean unstable. This is different from sensitive. I have not flown an HDS, but I have seen comments by multiple owners suggesting you can't fly one cross country without an autopilot. Apparently every little bit of bump in the air throws it off from the trimmed up attitude. I assume it doesn't return to the trimmed attitude without help from the pilot or autopilot. I did get a short demo flight in the factory XL demonstrator. It seemed solid as a rock to me. Indeed I was a little disappointed since I was expecting the "Twitchy" behavior I had heard so much about and got a much more docile experience. "Sensitive" talks about how much force or movement you must apply to the controls to get a given attitude response. I found the XL to be quite sensitive to forces on the center stick even though there was no perceptible movement of the stick when force was applied. I was particularly pleased to note full aileron authority right down to stall speed - a quality rarely found in the certified airplanes I have flown. Paul XL wings >Several times this morning I saw the term: "twithcy". Please >explain how it is ment. Do you mean sensitive ? thank you > Fritz---- Corvair - ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:32 AM PST US From: Hudsonmusic1@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: New Builder --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hudsonmusic1@aol.com Hello everyone. My name is Jeff Hudson and I just purchased a tail lit for the zodiac XL. My wife and I took a demo ride this past tuesday in the factory demaonstrator. I have never flown anything but cessnas and a piper cub. I couldn't believe how stable the aircraft felt. If it was twitchy, I didn't notice it. I am no expert but I liked how it flew. I just finished my table today and hope to get started on it tomorrow. I have all next week off to work on it too. I resaerched a lot of planes before I decided on the Zodiac. I think I made the right choice for the type of flying I do. I plan to use a continental 0-200 when the time comes. Jeff Hudson ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:27 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Builder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" Welcome to the family... You will find alot of help here and the Zenith = guys are great with product support. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Hudsonmusic1@aol.com wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hudsonmusic1@aol.com Hello everyone. My name is Jeff Hudson and I just purchased a tail lit = for = the zodiac XL. My wife and I took a demo ride this past tuesday in the f= actory = demaonstrator. I have never flown anything but cessnas and a piper cub. = I = couldn't believe how stable the aircraft felt. If it was twitchy, I didn= 't notice = it. I am no expert but I liked how it flew. I just finished my table tod= ay and = hope to get started on it tomorrow. I have all next week off to work on = it = too. = I resaerched a lot of planes before I decided on the Zodiac. I think I= made = the right choice for the type of flying I do. I plan to use a continenta= l = 0-200 when the time comes. = = Jeff Hudson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D = = =

Welcome to the family... You will find alot of help here and th= e Zenith guys are great with product support.

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair= .com

-- Hudsonmusic1@aol.com wrote:
--> Zeni= th-List message posted by: Hudsonmusic1@aol.com
<= BR> Hello everyone. My name is Jeff H= udson and I just purchased a tail lit=  for 
the zodiac XL. My wife and&n= bsp;I took a demo ride this past tues= day in the factory 
demaonstrator. I ha= ve never flown anything but cessnas and&nb= sp;a piper cub. I 
couldn't believe how=  stable the aircraft felt. If it was&= nbsp;twitchy, I didn't notice 
it. I am=  no expert but I liked how it fl= ew. I just finished my table today an= d 
hope to get started on it tomor= row. I have all next week off to = ;work on it 
too.  
  I re= saerched a lot of planes before I dec= ided on the Zodiac. I think I made&nb= sp;
the right choice for the type of&nb= sp;flying I do. I plan to use a = continental 
0-200 when the time comes.
<= BR>           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;      
     = ;       Jeff Hudson


<= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=        - The Zenith-List&nb= e many List utilities such as the Sub= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=       - NEW MATRONICS LIST&= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D           &nb=    Thank you for your generous s= bsp;           &n= bsp;        -Matt Dralle,&n= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



&n= bsp;
 
 



________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:58 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" I agree with all the assessments except the negative re flaps on the XL. In the kit form, the flaps take about 8 - 10 hours of no sweat work. If you want to and are capable of scratch building, then the flaps are probably not much of a bother or challenge and they will allow you to point the nose steeply downhill without building up to warp speed on final. That may be the only time you will use them but I think of it like a big engine in a car. I don't drive with my foot to the floor but I want it there when the situation calls for it. The 12 foot long wings do take up a lot of shop length... on that I fully agree..... I'm wrestling with that right now. I have to be creative about where I will store one skin while I debur the skeleton or work on access ports in the other skin, etc. Once the wings are substantially complete, however they can be stored in a cradle and stay there safe and sound until later. Whatever you decide, have fun and count on the list to be free with help and advice. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Spar length of 8' max for the HDS vs 12' for the XL- advantage, HDS. >XL gear vs HDS gear- advantage XL. Simplicity of construction, flaps >XL vs HDS full span aileron- advantage HDS. Since you're considering >scratch-building, I'd say go for the HDS if you decide you want to. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:00 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601 "twitchy" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Exactly. As I use the term regarding control response in an airplane, twitchy means that the response is excessive (too much response and/or too quick in response) relative to the amount of control input. The main issue is that I have to become a better pilot to get fine incremental results. Not a deal breaker, just an objective comment...... I will definitely deal with it. It's a Damascus steel sort of issue; you get thrown in the fire then bent and beat with a hammer until you become something better than you were before. Ed > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee > > Several times this morning I saw the term: "twithcy". Please explain how > it is ment. Do you mean sensitive ? thank you > Fritz---- Corvair > > Edward Moody II wrote > Only the > elevator response felt twichy to me in the demo at the factory and it was > not extreme. The rest of the flight control response was brisk but not > twichy in the least IMHO. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:10 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601 "twitchy" --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Hi guys, I've flown the HDS a lot on convective days, yet found no twitchy or diverting counterforces needed in the 23 ft wingspan. I think it cuts through better than the larger wings because it has a higher wing-loading than the HD or XL. I've had worse experiences in a Cessna 150. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Paul Mulwitz wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >Hi Fritz, > >By "Twitchy" I mean unstable. This is different from sensitive. > >I have not flown an HDS, but I have seen comments by multiple owners >suggesting you can't fly one cross country without an >autopilot. Apparently every little bit of bump in the air throws it >off from the trimmed up attitude. I assume it doesn't return to the >trimmed attitude without help from the pilot or autopilot. > >I did get a short demo flight in the factory XL demonstrator. It >seemed solid as a rock to me. Indeed I was a little disappointed >since I was expecting the "Twitchy" behavior I had heard so much >about and got a much more docile experience. > >"Sensitive" talks about how much force or movement you must apply to >the controls to get a given attitude response. I found the XL to be >quite sensitive to forces on the center stick even though there was >no perceptible movement of the stick when force was applied. I was >particularly pleased to note full aileron authority right down to >stall speed - a quality rarely found in the certified airplanes I have flown. > >Paul >XL wings > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:42 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Builder --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Hudsonmusic1@aol.com wrote: Congratulations Jeff, Welcome aboard. You've made a good decision in the Zenith 601. Another with this fine group. Really civil bunch that will help you get it done. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hudsonmusic1@aol.com > > Hello everyone. My name is Jeff Hudson and I just purchased a tail lit for >the zodiac XL. My wife and I took a demo ride this past tuesday in the factory >demaonstrator. I have never flown anything but cessnas and a piper cub. I >couldn't believe how stable the aircraft felt. If it was twitchy, I didn't notice >it. I am no expert but I liked how it flew. I just finished my table today and >hope to get started on it tomorrow. I have all next week off to work on it >too. > I resaerched a lot of planes before I decided on the Zodiac. I think I made >the right choice for the type of flying I do. I plan to use a continental >0-200 when the time comes. > > > Jeff Hudson > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:11 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Riveting oneself into a corner. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Tommy, I had a similar problem in another project... I solved it using a little nut that fits in the rivet nail, goes betwen the rivet and the hand rivet gun. This way, you can bend a little the nail to get the rivet done. The rivet will not got the round finish, but will hold ok. Make a test in some scrap material first. Saludos Gary Gower Tommy Walker wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Like the proverbial painter, I've gotten myself into a corner and wondered if anyone has a solution short of drilling all the rivets out and starting over correctly. If you look at the attached picture, you can see where my problem is. I can't get the two holes in the 7F12-4 Gusset riveted. The problem is caused by the 15 degree angle in the 7F5-2SP Side Channel. I should have set these two rivets in the Gusset and tubes before I set it in place, but I didn't There's not enough room for my manual or air powered rivet guns to set the rivet flush. I tried grinding off the side of the nose on the rivet gun, but still can't get the head to set flush. Any ideas would be appreciated. I bought a cheap HF rivet gun with a swivel head thinking I might be able to wiggle around and get it to work.... Alas, all my wiggling has been for naught. [Rolling Eyes] Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive -------- Tommy Walker Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36646#36646 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tightfit_107.jpg --------------------------------- Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:12 PM PST US Cc: Stanley Challgren From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Flaperon Arm Separation --> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren List: I am building the first 701 wing and have a question. The plans (drawing 7-V-5) call for 1201 mm between the flaperon arm sets. My inboard (#1 & #3) ones are 1199 mm apart (measured at the moment arm). Is this OK? #4 and #6 are 1210 mm apart but this could be reduced by about 7 mm by reversing #4 to outboard and #6 to inboard instead of what the plans call for. (Much of the difference is due to the arms not being strictly vertical but rather leaning away from each other). Note the flaperon arms can easily be leaned inward toward each other to achieve the 1201 called for in the plans. What would you recommend or should I just modify the flaperons when I build them to correlate with the measurements I have on the arms? Stan Challgren 701/Jab 3300 probably ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:45 PM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL Quick Build Kit --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken Arnold" Hi, Have searched FAQs for info on wing removal and winter storage of = subject A/C. Zenith web site pics reflect what appears to be bolts and = plug-ins to detach and attach the wings. Would appreciate if anyone has info as to time and effort involved. Ken Arnold ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:35 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: another Prop for sale --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Corvairs require a reverse-rotation prop. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary k Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:14 AM Subject: Zenith-List: another Prop for sale --> Zenith-List message posted by: "gary k" Blue, 2-blade composite (wood core) Prince prop. 68" X 62", SAE1 pattern. May be good for Corvair? Out performs Warp, covers wide range of pitch settings w/o having to change pitch. Can't say enough about Lonnie Prince and his props, awesome. About 40 hours on prop, still like new. Used on Stratus but seems to be incompatible with 2.2:1 redrive. $750 obo (paid $1000 and well worth it). gary ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:08 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Ed- List contributors have reported no benefit from XL flaps. I'm not being negative, I'm simply repeating what listers other than you have posted. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Moody II" Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" > > I agree with all the assessments except the negative re flaps on the XL. > In > the kit form, the flaps take about 8 - 10 hours of no sweat work. If you > want to and are capable of scratch building, then the flaps are probably > not > much of a bother or challenge and they will allow you to point the nose > steeply downhill without building up to warp speed on final. That may be > the > only time you will use them but I think of it like a big engine in a car. > I > don't drive with my foot to the floor but I want it there when the > situation > calls for it. The 12 foot long wings do take up a lot of shop length... on > that I fully agree..... I'm wrestling with that right now. I have to be > creative about where I will store one skin while I debur the skeleton or > work on access ports in the other skin, etc. Once the wings are > substantially complete, however they can be stored in a cradle and stay > there safe and sound until later. > > Whatever you decide, have fun and count on the list to be free with help > and > advice. > > Ed Moody II > Rayne, LA > 601XL / wings > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" >> >> Spar length of 8' max for the HDS vs 12' for the XL- advantage, HDS. >>XL gear vs HDS gear- advantage XL. Simplicity of construction, flaps >>XL vs HDS full span aileron- advantage HDS. Since you're considering >>scratch-building, I'd say go for the HDS if you decide you want to. > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:38 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" No arguement from me as whether or not others like the flaps or how they feel about their usefulness. What I stated about slowing a steeper decent is what I witnessed in person flying the demo at the factory. For me they are worth messing with even if I only use them once in a blue moon. I threw that opinion into the mix because it's valid for me. I don't think I'll use them routinely enough to bother with a flap indicator on the panel even though the AF-3500 EFIS I'm going to use has the ability to display flap angle. It's just not enough return on investment. I'm not bothered about being in the minority if that's how it shakes out. I have heard that many flyers say they don't use them or hardly ever do. Like I mentioned, I hardly ever floorboard the accelerator pedal in my vehicles, but I wouldn't want a smaller engine either. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Naumuk" Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:12 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Ed- > List contributors have reported no benefit from XL flaps. I'm not being > negative, I'm simply repeating what listers other than you have posted. > Bill ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:53 PM PST US From: "Randy Stout" Subject: Zenith-List: Flaps --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" In normal, every day flying, I would agree with you. But, the other day when I made my emergency landing in an oat field, I would have used them. The HD has a lot of drag, but when the prop stops, much of that drag disappears. The approach angle you are normally used to with the engine at idle changes drastically with the engine off. It becomes flatter instead of steeper. I was doing S turns and flying sideways to try to bleed off the remaining altitude. The HD floated over the ground for awhile before it would touchdown. My plane don't normally float. Usually you have to give it a little throttle to get it to slow it's decent or else the wheels will slam into the runway.. Randy Stout n282rs"at"earthlink.net www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > [Original Message] > From: Bill Naumuk > To: > Date: 5/27/2006 7:24:09 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welcome to the neighborhood!/HF Welders > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Ed- > List contributors have reported no benefit from XL flaps. I'm not being > negative, I'm simply repeating what listers other than you have posted. > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:48 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith CH801 Autopilot From: "Chris In Madison" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" Good evening all, I've spent the last week or two lurking and have learned a lot about some of the 601 and 701 building tricks. I'd like to throw an 801 question out there regarding autopilots. Given that no control surface connections are made within the wing itself, I'm presuming that no autopilot servos or associated wiring would be found in the wings. Is that a fair assessment? The best I can tell from the on-line information, everything is inside the cabin on this aircraft. Does anyone expect or has anyone experienced any kind of difficulty connecting autopilot servos to the control systems of this aircraft? I'm curious as to the considerations necessary to connect to this plane's flaperon system. Also, anyone here flying this aircraft IFR? Any insight is appreciated! Best regards, Chris -------- Chris Owens Still Dreaming of a CH801 Waunakee, WI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36901#36901 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:35 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaps --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >I was planning on avoiding comment on the flaps issue, but I guess I >finally got sucked in. For me, flaps serve three purposes: 1. Soft field take-off. A little flaps goes a long way to get the weight off the wheels and the plane airborne. About 10 degrees is perfect in a Cessna and probably would work nicely in a Zodiac too. 2. Increase landing descent angle. This is a way to adjust for a high approach. After on final and with power off, if the plane is still headed for the wrong end of the runway flaps will bring it down faster. This can also be accomplished quite nicely with a forward slip and no flaps. 3. As a normal landing procedure, I sometimes add flaps while in ground effect on the landing approach. I have normally done this when at high traffic density airports (i.e. where I am trying to stay ahead of jets on final so I am approaching at a high airspeed). Adding full flaps at the last moment reduces the landing speed and the resulting damage to both tires and brakes. I certainly wouldn't consider building or buying a plane without flaps. Paul XL wings do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:21 PM PST US From: Dave and Pam Fisher Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Riveting oneself into a corner --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dave and Pam Fisher Hi Tommy, Try grinding the dimpled face of your nose piece at a 15 degree angle and then redimple it, or you can accomplish the same thing by making a separate angled and dimpled attachment to slip over the rivet stem before you pull it. You can then angle the riveter into the corner while the crooked nose piece gives you a flush set on the rivet. The rivet stem will be pulled at an angle but you'll get a straight set on the rivet. Dave, 701 with A80-8 Continental At 12:58 AM 5/27/2006, you wrote: >* > >If you look at the attached picture, you can see where my problem is. I can't >get the two holes in the 7F12-4 Gusset riveted. The problem is caused by the >15 degree angle in the 7F5-2SP Side Channel. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:34 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Jerome, I would like to add to what others have said. As far as I know, we do not currently have an HDS Corvair combination flying yet. (Someone please chime in if there is). According the the Zenith website, the max cruise speed for the XL is 134 mph (100 hp) and 135 for the HDS. We all know that these speeds are inflated, but... I think we will soon learn that the speed advantage of the XL is negligible. Also, as someone mentioned, the HDS can meet the requirements for sport pilot. If your plane stalls at 53, droop the ailerons a degree or two, and you have a sport aircraft. If you are scratch building, I feel that the HDS spar is much easier to fabricate and build. You can also take what you like of the XL and build it into your HDS. I scratch built LE tanks, and the forward tilt canopy from the XL plans. I also custom built an aluminum spring gear morphing the 701 and XL plans. If you are exceedingly tall, the XL might be the right choice, as it has a couple more inches of leg room. The XL has a slightly bigger baggage compartment, while the HDS wing lockers are slightly deeper, but unless you are a marijuana or popcorn smuggler, you are going to run out of weight before you run out of space - especially if you are the average homebuilder size... Unless you have a significant amount of tail dragger experience, you should probably stick with tri-gear. Insurance savings being the biggest advantage. I have hundreds of tail hours in travel airs, texans, citabrias and cubs, so I decided to stick with conventional gear. Some will point out that rougher strips can be handled in a tail dragger, but most build them for bragging rights. I built the HDS because I got a bunch of parts for cheap from a guy who's priorities changed. I would have happily built either one, but I do think the HDS looks a little sexier. If mine is the first HDS Corvair flying, I will quickly report performance numbers. It will hopefully be flying in a month or so. R/ Brandon __________________________________________________