---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/30/06: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:16 AM - Re: Re: AnywhereMap (Gary Gower) 2. 12:16 AM - Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com) 3. 01:56 AM - Re: Zenith list In Cowl Radiators (Jari Kaija) 4. 01:59 AM - Re: Drilling landing gear (Jari Kaija) 5. 04:29 AM - Re: Wiring () 6. 05:21 AM - Re: Zenith list In Cowl Radiators (Trevor Page) 7. 05:45 AM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Bryan Martin) 8. 06:29 AM - MIG TIG STICK etc etc... (Bima, Martin) 9. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: bumpy ride?/ autopilot (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: HDS twitchy ?? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 07:31 AM - Re: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... (N5SL) 12. 07:51 AM - Re: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 13. 08:37 AM - Re: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... (Russell J.) 14. 08:44 AM - Re: Wiring (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 15. 09:36 AM - Re: Wiring (Jaybannist@cs.com) 16. 10:13 AM - Re: Wiring (Bill Steer) 17. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Wiring (Jim Hoak) 18. 03:59 PM - One last welder question (Bill Naumuk) 19. 04:08 PM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Bill Naumuk) 20. 04:14 PM - Re: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Bill Naumuk) 21. 04:39 PM - Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work (Big Gee) 22. 05:18 PM - Re: One last welder question (Gary Boothe) 23. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Question: How bumpy is the ride? (Daniel Vandenberg) 24. 05:49 PM - Re: One last welder question (cgalley) 25. 06:05 PM - Re: One last welder question (LarryMcFarland) 26. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Randy Bryant) 27. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work (Bill Naumuk) 28. 07:31 PM - Re: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work (Tom and Bren Henderson) 29. 07:38 PM - Re: One last welder question (Paul Mulwitz) 30. 07:43 PM - Re: One last welder question (Bill Naumuk) 31. 08:12 PM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Bryan Martin) 32. 08:18 PM - Re: One last welder question (Gary Boothe) 33. 08:50 PM - Limit load (George Swinford) 34. 08:54 PM - Re: One last welder question (David Mikesell) 35. 10:06 PM - Re: One last welder question (David Mikesell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:08 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: AnywhereMap --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower There is (was) only one AnywhereMap here in our Club (about 4 years ago). He liked it very much, the only concern was to see the map with the sun ( I dont know what PDA model or brand he used). He uses now a Garmin instead. Probably newer PDA's have solved this problem. I used to have a Palm. and only could see the programs inside a room. even tree shades were not enough. Saludos Gary Gower. William Mileski wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Mileski I just installed one in my 701. The wireless GPS with bluetooth Dell Ax= im PDA are great. There are no more concerns with dead batteries and hav= ing to reinstall the software with any Windows Mobile 5 PDA. The wirele= ss operation is great, you can pull the unit out of the mount and hand i= t to your copilot/passenger and they can check gas prices ahead. All so= rts of convenience features in that software now, and as the software im= proves, you upgrade for free as part of your annual subscription. Then t= he PDAs improve every year or two, and then you upgrade, for a few hundr= ed dollars, if you have to have the best. Harder to do that with a Garmi= n. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:08 AM PST US Subject: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading From: Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > >That's +/- 6 Gs ultimate load, that means +/- 4 Gs design load with a >1.5 X safety factor. I wonder... "Ultimate load" and "design load" are the same thing. I think, that you mean "Limit load (factor)", what is (with zenair) ultimate/1.5 ------------------------------------------- Jari Kaija Electronic Designer PKC Group Oyj Vihikari 10 FIN-90440 KEMPELE FINLAND Mobile: +358 (0)40 5200265 Phone: +358 (0)201 752252 TeleFax: +358 (0)201 752401 jari.kaija@pkcgroup.com http://www.pkcgroup.com http://www.project-ch701.net ------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:11 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith list In Cowl Radiators --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" > Thanks in advance > Ron Saarinen Are your family came from finland? Saarinen is finnish last name. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:43 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling landing gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" > have yet to drill your 3/4" 6061-T6 gear...do yourself a favor and get > this > tool. $15.00. Sure would be a shame to mess up that big ole piece of > aluminum. Caliper rule (what builder should have already), sharp pen and plywood/nylon = "0$" > While you're at it get the bungee installation tool too. $49.95 and save > some shipping. Pipe. 0$. http://www.project-ch701.net/ch701_fuselage/DSC03685.JPG ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:02 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring --> Zenith-List message posted by: Another option is to leave an additional loop of wire at the wing root and solder the joints and add shrink wrap. How many times in the life of the aircraft do you remove the wings? This is fast, secure and repeatable. I added a plate 1-1/2" above the center wing spar on the console to route the pitot tubes and wing wires without being seen or disturbing the wing spar. The plate serves as a place to velcro the Y-control stick boot on its top and the wires below thru gromets. Gary Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:35 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com > > I am building an XL and am curious about wiring from the wings. I have seen > on various web sites, the use of terminal blocks in the fuselage. I have left > enough wire (I think) to reach the instrument panel. Is it better to run the > wiring unbroken from the "user" to the switch, or is it better to use > terminal blocks (and why)? > > Thanks in advance - Jay in Dallas working on fuselage. > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:59 AM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith list In Cowl Radiators --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page Ron, have a look at Michel Therien's website here : http:// mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/chengine5.htm Trev Page C-IDUS 601HD R912 On May 30, 2006, at 1:18 AM, sales@steelframe wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "sales@steelframe" > > > Does anyone have Photos of in cowl radiators installed in a 601 > with Subaru engine, any details would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance > Ron Saarinen > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:19 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value. On May 30, 2006, at 3:15 AM, Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin >> >> >> That's +/- 6 Gs ultimate load, that means +/- 4 Gs design load with a >> 1.5 X safety factor. > > I wonder... "Ultimate load" and "design load" are the same thing. > > I think, that you mean "Limit load (factor)", what is (with zenair) > ultimate/1.5 > > > ------------------------------------------- > Jari Kaija > Electronic Designer > PKC Group Oyj -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:38 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... From: "Bima, Martin" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" Does anyone use gas anymore? The nature of electric resistance welding includes a huge temperature differential between the tip and the surrounding area (remember that the tip is hotter than the sun and just a 1/2 inch away is cold steel at 55 degrees) which requires proper post-weld heat treatment - normalizing. This I done using a torch or oven, getting the surrounding area to glow a dull to cherry red, and letting it cool very slowly in still air. So why buy an electric machine if you are going to have to heat it after with gas anyway(unless you have a huge and hot over in your garage). Don't get me wrong here. If I had the money, there would be a nice little yellow TIG welder in my garage next to the two tanks, but I don't have that kind of money, so it's just the two tanks. BUT PLEASE - If you are a novice welder I would recommend that ... 1. Don't take advice from a forum like this as GOSPEL. There are too many amatuers that have strong opinions that could be mistaken as fact - including myself (But, if you have any training in logic, you would know that if a liar tells you to be careful, you should still be careful). 2. Buy (or go to the library and get) a book on AIRCRAFT welding - not "How to Build Trailers and Dune-Buggies". Better to buy because this will become an invaluable reference. The EAA has several excelent books and videos for beginners and advanced welders. I have not yet seen a trailer that can roll inverted or do loops unless pushed off a cliff. 3. Take an AIRCRAFT welding course or have another AIRCRAFT welder watch your work. I thought I was doing a fine job with my amatuer welding (bikes, and other frame structures) until a REAL AIRCRAFT welder showed me some very subtle changes in my technique that made big improvements in safety and economy. There are as many methods and techniques in welding as there are opinions on this here internet (again, I am including myself here), but the goal is to have a strong and tough weld that in the unlikely event of a highly stressful event, the plane will bend and contort around the straight runs of tubing and the joints will be pristine. (If I have offended you, you are way too sensitive and need to lighten up. This stuff is suppose to be fun - remember?) Martin Bima Winnipeg "kiss you wife, hug your kids, and get building" ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:30 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: bumpy ride?/ autopilot From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Old style autopilots were analogue control and apparently were not sensitive enough to control the airframe in turbulence. Modern day digital controlled A/P's do not have this issue. In fact many of the RV drivers are using them IFR for exactly this purpose. Just the extensive reading I have done, I have not flown my Digitrack yet. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Big Gee Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 2:38 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: bumpy ride?/ autopilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee All--- There has been a lot of water over the dam since I've taken my flying lessons. As a matter of fact I have only flown with autopilot one time. That was to experience it only, than my instructor told me to turn it off. It was a long time ago, but I recall being told to "turn the autopilot off in turbulence." If I recall correctly it was because it was harder on the airframe. Feedback please Fritz ------ Corvair ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: HDS twitchy ?? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" You seem to imply that yanking and banking equals a bad flying airplane?...Not in my book its FUN! Personally I think this conversation has all gotten out of hand somehow...I think this started with my using the term "twitchy" when I really intended to imply "sensitive" and your way more "connected" to the controls than the barge like C152/172. To me the HDS the is trmendous fun but I bet it would be a handful in IFR Frank +++++ FOR THE RECORD !!! I totally disagree about "Yanking and Banking". My wife and I flew our HDS 2100 miles down to Sun n Fun and back (with a stop down in Arkansas to visit a friend) in 2004. The flying characteristics of the HDS (at least this one) are wonderful! My wife is a pilot as well. She flew our aircraft a considerable part of that trip and commented several times about how flying our Zodiac was FAR more fun than flying the Cessna 172 we used to own. Fred 238 hours Jabiru 3300/ 601 HDS ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:19 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL I do. Scott (Do Not Archive) Laughlin (hack welder extraordinaire) www.cooknwithgas.com --- "Bima, Martin" wrote: > Does anyone use gas anymore? __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Me too!..Gas is one of the the most useful tools in the whole shop!...Weld, cut, heat, bend, free stuck threads. Wonderful Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL I do. Scott (Do Not Archive) Laughlin (hack welder extraordinaire) www.cooknwithgas.com --- "Bima, Martin" wrote: > Does anyone use gas anymore? __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:53 AM PST US From: "Russell J." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Russell J." > Me too!..Gas is one of the the most useful tools in the whole > shop!...Weld, cut, heat, bend, free stuck threads. > > Wonderful > > Frank ++++++++++++++++++++++++ as it is more commonly known, "the hot wrench" Russell J. do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:05 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Jay, I used on recommendation from my tech counselor, Jim Hoak, a zissor connector covered in shrink tube just inside the fuselage. Worked well in disconnecting later to remove the wing for painting and transport to the hanger. Also you did not have to worry about if the wire was long enough. FWIW, best regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:43 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com Bill, I've not heard of a zissor connector. Tell me more. Jay do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:34 AM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" I believe he meant the knife disconnects. They're items 32446 and 32448 in my ACS catalog. Bill > Bill, I've not heard of a zissor connector. Tell me more. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:18 AM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" Jay, I'm the one who recommended the knife ( Bill called them sissor - (mispelled)) connectors that he used. These have been used in the aviation industry for many years. They are used where you will have to occasionally disconnect / connect wires. These are Aircraft Spruce Part Numbers 32446 (22-16 wire size-red) and 32448 (16-14 wire size - blue). I believe using these knife connectors would work fine at the fuselage / wing juncture. Be sure to use shrink wrap and some way to secure the connections to prevent them from chaffing. Terminal strips have their use and could be made to work at this location but would be more complicated, heavier and require careful insulation. Jim Hoak 601HD 512 hours. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:33 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Zenith-List: Wiring > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com > > Bill, I've not heard of a zissor connector. Tell me more. > > Jay > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:49 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" All- Thanks for all the truly helpful responses. By line item: 1. I've been welding both gas and electric since I was 13. Problem = is, I've used the same equipment for the past 39 years and wanted to see = what the big deal was with the new acronyms (MIG/TIG, etc.) From the = responses, A. MIG is no big deal. B. TIG or oxy/acetylene is for = aluminum.=20 2. Asked my 86 year old Uncle Joe what his recommendation was. He = used to be a welder for Bucyrus-Erie and Greenville Steel Car during = WWII. That's what drove my Memorial Day comments.=20 He had an iron-clad critical war-worker deferment. One day, he'd = taken enough crap from a couple of ladies on the streetcar going to work = for being a "Draft Dodger", got off at the next stop and enlisted in the = USAAC. Flew 38 missions in B-17s with the 100th (Yes, that 100th) = bombardment of the 8th Air Force, 28 combat and 10 hauling relief = supplies. Bronze star, shot down 3 times. After 50 years won't even fly = commercial because he said he's already used up 8 of his 9 lives. =20 His recommendation was "The thinner the stock you can do a good job = of welding, the better the welder". From the responses, sounds like it's = still solid advice. 3. My welded parts were purchased from Zenith, so I'm looking more = at a rig for making fixtures, repairs, and the like. I can't see any = better bang for the buck than the top of the line Lincoln stick welder = for steel. The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum? By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here. Bill do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:31 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Question- How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while pulling 6 gs? Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the > design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed > in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most > certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a > statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value. > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:10 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Jerome- No HDS builder will dispute this. Once again, a trade off. How much time and money is it going to take to scratchbuild a spring gear vs bungee? I don't think raw stock that thick is going to come cheap! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Tucker" Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:00 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker > It did, however, simplify the > installation > > __________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:08 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee If you built the airplane to that standard, it shouldn't be in the air. Any questionable work should be reaccomplished as you proceed in the building process. Any doubts contact Cris H. with scatches and he'll be glad to give you the corrective action. Fritz ----Corvair do not archive Bill Naumuk wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Question- How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while pulling 6 gs? Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the > design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed > in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most > certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a > statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value. > > > --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:03 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Bill, God bless your uncle, and every other WWII veteran, including my own father who lied and cheated his way into the Navy, at 17 years old! Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... 2. Asked my 86 year old Uncle Joe what his recommendation was. He = used to be a welder for Bucyrus-Erie and Greenville Steel Car during = WWII. That's what drove my Memorial Day comments.=20 He had an iron-clad critical war-worker deferment. One day, he'd = taken enough crap from a couple of ladies on the streetcar going to work = for being a "Draft Dodger", got off at the next stop and enlisted in the = USAAC. Flew 38 missions in B-17s with the 100th (Yes, that 100th) = Bill do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:40 PM PST US From: Daniel Vandenberg Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Question: How bumpy is the ride? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg Thanks Lance...this sort of input is valuable. Could I further elicit responses on this topic also from a few other XL drivers who frequent this list? lgingell wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lgingell" Good question.... I have an XL/Jab 3300. It can be pretty bumpy, particularly when lightly loaded (i'm 120lbs) I think my XL is great, but I *would* prefer it to be less bumpy. It yaws quite a bit in turbulence. Its a bumpier ride than the RV's around here. My trutrak digitrak autopilot does quite a good job of smoothing it out, but you still feel it. If you are concerned, and you have the extra money/time, go with the 9...(or a 7 - doesn't that have a higher wingloading still?). cheers, ..lance http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp -------- Zodiac XL/Jab 3300 http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37196#37196 --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:12 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Yes propane is actually too hot. Many use Hydrogen instead. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Naumuk" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: Zenith-List: One last welder question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > All- > Thanks for all the truly helpful responses. By line item: > 1. I've been welding both gas and electric since I was 13. Problem = > is, I've used the same equipment for the past 39 years and wanted to see = > what the big deal was with the new acronyms (MIG/TIG, etc.) From the = > responses, A. MIG is no big deal. B. TIG or oxy/acetylene is for = > aluminum.=20 > 2. Asked my 86 year old Uncle Joe what his recommendation was. He = > used to be a welder for Bucyrus-Erie and Greenville Steel Car during = > WWII. That's what drove my Memorial Day comments.=20 > He had an iron-clad critical war-worker deferment. One day, he'd = > taken enough crap from a couple of ladies on the streetcar going to work = > for being a "Draft Dodger", got off at the next stop and enlisted in the = > USAAC. Flew 38 missions in B-17s with the 100th (Yes, that 100th) = > bombardment of the 8th Air Force, 28 combat and 10 hauling relief = > supplies. Bronze star, shot down 3 times. After 50 years won't even fly = > commercial because he said he's already used up 8 of his 9 lives. =20 > His recommendation was "The thinner the stock you can do a good job = > of welding, the better the welder". From the responses, sounds like it's = > still solid advice. > 3. My welded parts were purchased from Zenith, so I'm looking more = > at a rig for making fixtures, repairs, and the like. I can't see any = > better bang for the buck than the top of the line Lincoln stick welder = > for steel. The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum? > By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here. > Bill > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:21 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Bill, Aircraft welders dont exist today. Any serious welding is pre-certified to specific jobs and the professional welder that does aircraft welding in the universal sense is mostly an A & P or an amateur like us. Theres some variability in exposure and training, but most of it is self-taught. Only practice makes a good welder of you. The 6000-degree Oxyacetylene flame is the only gas that will melt nearly all metals and is the least expensive process for welding 4130 structural tubing. TIG is better if you really need to have the best looking welds and total control of the job. My welds never looked as good as professionally done aluminum. Welding 5052 was initially rather difficult even though Id read the books and my problems were mostly about contaminated argon flow tips. The professional Welding Engineer seldom has broad applied skills in welding that we learn just during the plane-building process. So when you put a 6000-degree flame to a job or the 125-amp TIG arc begins a melt process, its generally up to you to learn how to stay in control of it. Books are a nice start, but practice is the only way to get there. Welding aluminum with Oxyacetylene was one of the most difficult things I've had to learn and don't recommend it as it's compared to riding a unicycle in the dark. It can be done, but at considerable effort. My second fuel tank was done this way for a Tailwind/Cougar and I never got comfortable with it. TIG is much like running a sewing machine in comparison. Dont let anyone diminish your ability to believe you can learn a new process Bill, just because you dont have a PHD in Applied Welding process. Its just not rocket science. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Bill Naumuk wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > >All- > The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum? > By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here. > Bill > do not archive > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:14 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" I bought a 12' X 8" X 3/4" piece from Yarde Metals about 2 months ago for less than $200 to build my XL gear... Randy http://www.n344rb.com Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Naumuk" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Jerome- > No HDS builder will dispute this. Once again, a trade off. How much > time > and money is it going to take to scratchbuild a spring gear vs bungee? I > don't think raw stock that thick is going to come cheap! > > Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Tucker" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:00 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker >> > It did, however, simplify the >> installation > >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:26 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Anyone who doesn't have a doubt about his workmanship at 6gs is a far better man than I. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Big Gee" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee > > If you built the airplane to that standard, it shouldn't be in the air. > Any questionable work should be reaccomplished as you proceed in the > building process. Any doubts contact Cris H. with scatches and he'll be > glad to give you the corrective action. > Fritz ----Corvair > do not archive > > > Bill Naumuk wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Question- > How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every > rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while > pulling 6 gs? > > Bill > > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Martin" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM > Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > >> >> You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the >> design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed >> in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most >> certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a >> statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value. > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > --------------------------------- > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:16 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom and Bren Henderson Lest your post scare off undecided newbies, we should probably quantify "questionable work". We're not building lunar modules here. Yes, we're building flying machines. Yes, we'll strap our butts to them and terrorize the bugs. Does that mean a slight scratch in a fuselage skin shall be cause for rework? Certainly not! There are critical areas of the airframe that demand strict attention to published standards. Big Gee is completely correct in the statement that Chris will happily answer any and all workmanship questions. We need to remember however that one rivet that is 1mm off the given edge distance, in a row of 40, should not be cause to scrap the parts. If that were the case, many of the parts right off Zenith's line would require re-work (they aren't known for their straight rivet lines). Oh, and don't pull 6 G's ! :- ) Big Gee wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee If you built the airplane to that standard, it shouldn't be in the air. Any questionable work should be reaccomplished as you proceed in the building process. Any doubts contact Cris H. with scatches and he'll be glad to give you the corrective action. Fritz ----Corvair do not archive Bill Naumuk wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Question- How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while pulling 6 gs? Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the > design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed > in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most > certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a > statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value. > > > --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:45 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >Its just not rocket science. No . . . It's airplane science, but it also works for rockets. Paul XL wings do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:53 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Gary and all- My uncle enlisted in the USAAC because of peer pressure; my father had the choice of joining the Navy or going to Riker's Island. My uncle wound up after the war as a postmaster, my father an engineer for Grumman. Go figure. Everyone has an Uncle Joe. It took 40 years to get the story I just related. PTSD started long before 'Nam. Talk to the WWII vets before it's too late- chances are what you hear will blow your preconceptions of Hollywood History to pieces. At this point in time, the vets have no reason to hold anything back any longer. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Boothe" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: One last welder question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" > > Bill, > > God bless your uncle, and every other WWII veteran, including my own > father > who lied and cheated his way into the Navy, at 17 years old! > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:52 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin Since the flight load limit is 4 Gs, I'd be a damn fool to try to pull more than that. 6 Gs is the point where, theoretically, things start to permanently deform. On May 30, 2006, at 7:08 PM, Bill Naumuk wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Question- > How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look > at every > rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) > while > pulling 6 gs? > > Bill > > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Martin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM > Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin >> >> >> You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the >> design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed >> in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most >> certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a >> statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:27 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Best book I ever read on the subject (PTSD) - Flags of our Fathers - about the six Marines who hoisted the famous flag over Iwo Jima.... 'nuff said! Gary Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:43 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Gary and all- My uncle enlisted in the USAAC because of peer pressure; my father had the choice of joining the Navy or going to Riker's Island. My uncle wound up after the war as a postmaster, my father an engineer for Grumman. Go figure. Everyone has an Uncle Joe. It took 40 years to get the story I just related. PTSD started long before 'Nam. Talk to the WWII vets before it's too late- chances are what you hear will blow your preconceptions of Hollywood History to pieces. At this point in time, the vets have no reason to hold anything back any longer. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Boothe" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: One last welder question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" > > Bill, > > God bless your uncle, and every other WWII veteran, including my own > father > who lied and cheated his way into the Navy, at 17 years old! > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:26 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Limit load --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" With respect to Bryan Martin's last posting on limit load: By = definition, limit load is the maximum g-load that the structure is = designed to stand without any permanent deformation. Above that load = something would be expected to bend and stay bent when the load comes = off. At or slightly above ultimate load, defined as 1.5 times limit = load, something would be expected to fail. Don't try to pull 6 Gs. George Swinford Do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:45 PM PST US From: "David Mikesell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Mikesell" Very well put Larry. I dropped from the discussion after it was said "you have to have a big oven or a oxy/acetalne torch to reheat your work", that is a very very big mistatement that I did not want to argue with, but you know I just couldn't resist. I will not argue with my words but with the designer's Chris H, "all welding for the 601 series can be done with a torch, mig or tig and it requires no heat treatment or reheating, that is something the home builder should not have to do". The reheating of 4130 steel is not even done when the factory makes a motor mount for a certified aircraft. The steel is not heated enough to loose its properties to a critical point to where it needs to be relieved and normalized. Doing the motor mount and landing gear legs for the HD and HDS can be welded and used, you don't need a oven or a torch. Just a little bit of experience in the repair of Helicopters and Airplanes (20+years) and the current fleet I take care of includes a P-51, Stearman, Stagerwing, 2 Beech 99 airliners, 2 DeHavilland Super Otters and my customers airplanes of 4 Beech 65A90 King Airs....and I do all the welding both aluminum and steel with the complete blessing of my local Fisdo as long as I adhere to AC43 for my repairs. David Mikesell 23597 N. Hwy 99 Acampo, CA 95220 209-609-8774 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > > Bill, > Aircraft welders dont exist today. Any serious welding is pre-certified > to specific jobs and the professional welder that does aircraft > welding in the universal sense is mostly an A & P or an amateur like > us. Theres some variability in exposure and training, but most of it is > self-taught. Only practice makes a good welder of you. The 6000-degree > Oxyacetylene flame is the only gas that will melt nearly all metals and > is the least expensive process for welding 4130 structural tubing. TIG > is better if you really need to have the best looking welds and total > control of the job. My welds never looked as good as professionally done > aluminum. Welding 5052 was initially rather difficult even though Id > read the books and my problems were mostly about contaminated argon flow > tips. > > The professional Welding Engineer seldom has broad applied skills in > welding that we learn just during the plane-building process. So when > you put a 6000-degree flame to a job or the 125-amp TIG arc begins a > melt process, its generally up to you to learn how to stay in control > of it. Books are a nice start, but practice is the only way to get there. > > Welding aluminum with Oxyacetylene was one of the most difficult things > I've had to learn and don't recommend it as it's compared to riding a > unicycle in the dark. It can be done, but at considerable effort. My > second fuel tank was done this way for a Tailwind/Cougar and I never got > comfortable with it. TIG is much like running a sewing machine in > comparison. > > Dont let anyone diminish your ability to believe you can learn a new > process Bill, just because you dont have a PHD in Applied Welding > process. Its just not rocket science. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > do not archive > > > Bill Naumuk wrote: > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > > >All- > > The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum? > > By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here. > > Bill > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:47 PM PST US From: "David Mikesell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Mikesell" OOPS, forgot to qualify the welding statement.......IF you read back to the construction of the airframes for all the tube & rag airplanes: Fairchild, Piper, Aeronca and such you will see thousands of welded tube airframes.......and they never heated one in a oven after welding......got that from a guy on my airport who worked for piper welding cub airframes. David Mikesell 23597 N. Hwy 99 Acampo, CA 95220 209-609-8774 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Mikesell" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Mikesell" > > Very well put Larry. I dropped from the discussion after it was said "you > have to have a big oven or a oxy/acetalne torch to reheat your work", that > is a very very big mistatement that I did not want to argue with, but you > know I just couldn't resist. I will not argue with my words but with the > designer's Chris H, "all welding for the 601 series can be done with a > torch, mig or tig and it requires no heat treatment or reheating, that is > something the home builder should not have to do". The reheating of 4130 > steel is not even done when the factory makes a motor mount for a certified > aircraft. The steel is not heated enough to loose its properties to a > critical point to where it needs to be relieved and normalized. Doing the > motor mount and landing gear legs for the HD and HDS can be welded and used, > you don't need a oven or a torch. Just a little bit of experience in the > repair of Helicopters and Airplanes (20+years) and the current fleet I take > care of includes a P-51, Stearman, Stagerwing, 2 Beech 99 airliners, 2 > DeHavilland Super Otters and my customers airplanes of 4 Beech 65A90 King > Airs....and I do all the welding both aluminum and steel with the complete > blessing of my local Fisdo as long as I adhere to AC43 for my repairs. > > David Mikesell > 23597 N. Hwy 99 > Acampo, CA 95220 > 209-609-8774 > skyguynca@skyguynca.com > www.skyguynca.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "LarryMcFarland" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 6:04 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > > > > Bill, > > Aircraft welders dont exist today. Any serious welding is pre-certified > > to specific jobs and the professional welder that does aircraft > > welding in the universal sense is mostly an A & P or an amateur like > > us. Theres some variability in exposure and training, but most of it is > > self-taught. Only practice makes a good welder of you. The 6000-degree > > Oxyacetylene flame is the only gas that will melt nearly all metals and > > is the least expensive process for welding 4130 structural tubing. TIG > > is better if you really need to have the best looking welds and total > > control of the job. My welds never looked as good as professionally done > > aluminum. Welding 5052 was initially rather difficult even though Id > > read the books and my problems were mostly about contaminated argon flow > > tips. > > > > The professional Welding Engineer seldom has broad applied skills in > > welding that we learn just during the plane-building process. So when > > you put a 6000-degree flame to a job or the 125-amp TIG arc begins a > > melt process, its generally up to you to learn how to stay in control > > of it. Books are a nice start, but practice is the only way to get there. > > > > Welding aluminum with Oxyacetylene was one of the most difficult things > > I've had to learn and don't recommend it as it's compared to riding a > > unicycle in the dark. It can be done, but at considerable effort. My > > second fuel tank was done this way for a Tailwind/Cougar and I never got > > comfortable with it. TIG is much like running a sewing machine in > > comparison. > > > > Dont let anyone diminish your ability to believe you can learn a new > > process Bill, just because you dont have a PHD in Applied Welding > > process. Its just not rocket science. > > > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > do not archive > > > > > > Bill Naumuk wrote: > > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > > > > >All- > > > The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum? > > > By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here. > > > Bill > > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >