---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/31/06: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:04 AM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Jari Kaija) 2. 01:07 AM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Jari Kaija) 3. 02:42 AM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 04:01 AM - Flying Report: Phil Maxson's 601XL/Corvair (Phil Maxson) 5. 05:38 AM - Re: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work (Big Gee) 6. 06:32 AM - Fuel Fresh / Stabil in autogas (Paul Tipton) 7. 07:03 AM - Lycoming O-540 Engine Mount For 801 - Info needed...... (Condon, Philip M.) 8. 08:22 AM - Design for Alcohol Engine (Don Mountain) 9. 09:06 AM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 09:11 AM - Re: Wiring (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 11. 10:09 AM - Re: Wiring (Jaybannist@cs.com) 12. 10:09 AM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine () 13. 10:55 AM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Paul Mulwitz) 14. 11:31 AM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 12:13 PM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (cgalley) 16. 12:50 PM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Noel Loveys) 17. 01:00 PM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Noel Loveys) 18. 01:11 PM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Noel Loveys) 19. 01:24 PM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 20. 02:19 PM - 601XL- Rubber engine Mounts Jab (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 21. 02:24 PM - Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Gig Giacona) 22. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Noel Loveys) 23. 03:30 PM - Re: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work (Bill Naumuk) 24. 03:51 PM - Welder experiment (Bill Naumuk) 25. 03:54 PM - Load Limit (tinerj2005@tinerj.com) 26. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Bill Cardell) 27. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Noel Loveys) 28. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Bill Naumuk) 29. 06:41 PM - Re: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Bill Cardell) 30. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Randy Bryant) 31. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine (Noel Loveys) 32. 06:55 PM - More Flying Report: Phil Maxson's 601XL (Phil Maxson) 33. 07:06 PM - Re: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Brandon Tucker) 34. 09:30 PM - Re: Welder experiment (Ron Lendon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:23 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" > Question- > How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every > rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while > pulling 6 gs? First of all! 6g is DESIGN limit. The limit, when plane will or can brake totally. Zenair have some VERY STUPID way to tell that DESIGN (ultimate) limit to sell their plane/kits/plans, instead of limit, what is more important for pilot, known as Flying limit/Limit load factor. Pilot or builder, who haven't even idea what that means, should newer build or fly any plane. He/She is dangerous idiot for passengers, for himself and for everyone, who are under the breaking plane "crashing area". Sorry if I'm rude, but this kind of thing is something, what EVERYONE, I repeat EVERYONE, who fly or build plane should now already! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:30 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" Damn those "typos"!: > First of all! 6g is DESIGN limit. First of all! 6g is a DESIGN limit. > should newer build or fly any plane. should never build or fly any plane. > should now already! should know already! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:55 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >Sorry if I'm rude, but this kind of thing is something, what EVERYONE, I >repeat EVERYONE, who fly or build plane should know already! I agree with you Jari . . . at least in principle. My own flight training and experience is that normal flight operations will not generate more than around 2 Gs positive and almost none in the negative direction. That means the 6 G limit (what ever detailed name you give it) is a margin that gives extra safety for the occupants of the plane. It is only in the more extreme aerobatic maneuvers that anything like 6 Gs can be experienced by a plane. These are not within the designed operating limits of our planes and should not be done. Any pilot stupid enough to perform high G maneuvers in one of these planes deserves the risk to life and limb they get. I have also found that anything beyond around 3 Gs is very uncomfortable for an old guy like me. Paul XL wings do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:15 AM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: Zenith-List: Flying Report: Phil Maxson's 601XL/Corvair --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" Several of you have been asking about the flying qualities of my plane. Here is a detailed report. Let me say first, I love my plane. I wouldn't change anything about my choice of kit, building order, engine, or finishing the plane in William Wynne's hangar. I have flown my plane for about 12 hours since it has been here in New Jersey. It handles like a typical 601XL. It is very docile and easy to learn to fly and land. Very simple to land. It takes some getting used to if you are used to flying heavy planes (such as a 152/172/Cherokee). Specs: Kit: Standard Kit Options: Lights Engine: Corvair 2700 cc, Built in William's Hangar 2 years ago, Nitrided Crank Prop: Warp Drive, 2 Blade, 67 inch, set at 8.5 degrees Empty Weight: 777 lbs Performance: Time on Airframe: 73 hours Top Speed: 125 mph Power off Stall Speed: Don't know - Registers below lower end airspeed indicator (40 mph) and didn't check GPS Max Sustainable Climb: 1200 fpm Take off distance: Approximately 500 feet (pilot, full tanks) Landing Distance: Approximately 300 feet The XL is a very comfortable, easy cruising plane. It is more sensitive and bumpy than heavier planes I've flown, but it is not too difficult for a low time pilot to manage. Many pilots mention a heavy left wing, but my plane doesn't seem to exhibit this. I burn the fuel in the left tank first to keep things balanced, and also I put the landing light out on the right wing. I don't know if that makes a difference. I've had no problems with the engine or airframe. I don't have wheel pants, step fairings, leg fairings, or any other enhancements. I suspect I can get another 8 mph out of those things. Also, I could possibly change the pitch of my prop. I don't want to do that, since I like having such good climb performance at my short field (with obstacles). I'll post more later. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:35 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee Tom-- I agree with you 100 % and didn't intend to imply otherwise. However, if one has to "swivel his neck" checking for all the loose rivets than it is an aiplane which I wouldn't want to be in. I don't think many of us are going to pull 6 g's. But, if something should happen that we come close, the airplane shouldn't come apart. Hate to see my post taken for what it wasn't ment-------- Build a safe airplane, if any doubts, ask. Fritz ------ Corvair do not archive Tom and Bren Henderson wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom and Bren Henderson Lest your post scare off undecided newbies, we should probably quantify "questionable work". We're not building lunar modules here. Yes, we're building flying machines. Yes, we'll strap our butts to them and terrorize the bugs. Does that mean a slight scratch in a fuselage skin shall be cause for rework? Certainly not! There are critical areas of the airframe that demand strict attention to published standards. Big Gee is completely correct in the statement that Chris will happily answer any and all workmanship questions. We need to remember however that one rivet that is 1mm off the given edge distance, in a row of 40, should not be cause to scrap the parts. If that were the case, many of the parts right off Zenith's line would require re-work (they aren't known for their straight rivet lines). Oh, and don't pull 6 G's ! :- ) Big Gee wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee If you built the airplane to that standard, it shouldn't be in the air. Any questionable work should be reaccomplished as you proceed in the building process. Any doubts contact Cris H. with scatches and he'll be glad to give you the corrective action. Fritz ----Corvair do not archive Bill Naumuk wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Question- How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while pulling 6 gs? Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the > design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed > in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most > certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a > statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value. > > > --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:51 AM PST US From: "Paul Tipton" Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Fresh / Stabil in autogas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton" What experience do we have in routinely using Fuel Fresh or Stabil in your autogas for 912 engines. I don't like the "sludge" produced when autogas sits around for any period of time. It is hard to know how long you are going to have the fuel in the tank when you top it off. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Lycoming O-540 Engine Mount For 801 - Info needed...... From: "Condon, Philip M." --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon, Philip M." Can anyone supply any info on a engine mount for the 801 and a Lycoming O-540 ? I own the engine, hence the search for a mount. Can a Zenith O-360 mount be used on the O-540 ? Will accessories clear ? Is there a shop that supplies this other then the Factory? I searched the archives and found only Travis's web site..... Thanks ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:08 AM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain It seems that the drift is toward more alcohol based fuels in auto engines here in Iowa. And more states are requiring alcohol in auto fuels to the point where it is difficult to find any straight gasoline anywhere anymore. So the question comes up, should I be designing an engine system for my 601 XL that will take advantage of alcohol based fuels when I am installing the engine in a year or two? Have there been any airplane engines set up for alcohol and flown with it successfully? Any of the auto conversions? I wonder about the altitude restrictions it would have due to its vapor pressure and the lower energy content requiring a higher fuel burn. Don Mountain __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Now there is a hornets nest if ever there was one...:) I have run my stratus soob on 10% ethanol fuel for 400 hours witout any issue. Do search on the archives for a vapor lock free way to design a fuel system, no matter what the fuel is...That is pumps in the wing roots. And make sure you have high pressure air on the tank vents. Data from a Hodges fuel vapour tester has shown E10 blended fuels to be good to between 15 and 22,000 feet. Note that these figures are at the temperature on the ground...Assuming temp falls with altitude this gives a safety margin. Note you can easily test each batch of fuel to give you the boil off altitude. The issue is with the vapour boiling in the tanks, not vapour locking the pumps ....As long as the pumps are not sucking on the fuel of course. The other argument against Ethanol blended fuels is they absorb water...Should be a good thing except the solubility reduces with altitude (or is that temperature?), so while you may have no water in the sumps on the ground you could "make" water as you go higher. Is this a real life issue? Personally I doubt it. As to the reduction in range...Well there is not much one can do about it... I am planning to run my new Lycoming on autofuel and while the manufacturers will tolerate that they go nuts about having any ethanol in the fuel...Personally I am not convinced. Frank 601 HDS Subaru 400 hours RV7a FI Lycoming painting! -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Mountain Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:15 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain It seems that the drift is toward more alcohol based fuels in auto engines here in Iowa. And more states are requiring alcohol in auto fuels to the point where it is difficult to find any straight gasoline anywhere anymore. So the question comes up, should I be designing an engine system for my 601 XL that will take advantage of alcohol based fuels when I am installing the engine in a year or two? Have there been any airplane engines set up for alcohol and flown with it successfully? Any of the auto conversions? I wonder about the altitude restrictions it would have due to its vapor pressure and the lower energy content requiring a higher fuel burn. Don Mountain __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:40 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Jay, sorry about the spelling, they were scissor connectors. Bill ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:20 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wiring --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com Bill, It seems they are more commonly called knife disconnects. - Jay ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:20 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine Cc: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: I believe that the issue is not about fuel boiling in the tanks. If the tanks are vented with the vent tube bevelled toward the oncoming air, the tanks should be pressurized slightly above the ambient pressure at which you are flying. Given our service ceiling limitation, if the fuel boils at that pressure there is little hope that any of us will make it back down alive. The real life issue is in fact the fuel boiling (particularly if the fuel gets warmed by sunshine on the wings) when the pressure is significantly reduced by the pump having to suck it uphill in the fuel line. The bubble that forms in the line when fuel vaporizes tends to act as an obstruction in the line because when it reaches the pump, the efficiency of the pump on vapor is much less than on liquid. Also while the bubble is in the line and not going anywhere it requires the liguid fuel to pass around it. That results in a drastic reduction in the effective diameter of the lumen of the fuel line. So until the pump finally moves the bubbles through to the output side, the fuel flow is cut severely. If the bubbles are not reabsorbed into the liquid fuel in the pressurized section of the line, they cause short periods of fuel starvation at the float bowl when they arrive. Therefore, it's what happens between the tank and the carburetor that is of greatest concern to us inflight. Consider all the bubbles that are agitated into the fuel in the tank in turbulent conditions. They don't cause a problem unless the fuel level in the tank is low enough to suck some of them into the line. That's when the fun begins. Locating a fuel pump in each wing near the tank is a good idea. Ed Moody II Rayne. LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > Do search on the archives for a vapor lock free way to design a > fuel system, no matter what the fuel is...That is pumps in the wing > roots. And make sure you have high pressure air on the tank vents. > >The issue is with the vapour boiling in the tanks, not vapour > locking the pumps ....As long as the pumps are not sucking on the fuel > of course. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:43 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz There is another deadly issue with alcohol in aviation fuel. With many states and the feds pushing use of alcohol we all face this issue if we use anything but 100LL in our planes. This could be really fatal if the availability of 100LL ends -- a likely event since there is only one company in the world making the key ingredient for 100LL Tetra Ethyl Lead. Alcohol is a strong solvent. This means it will dissolve some of the materials used to seal up our power plants and fuel storage/transport systems. When this happens there are two potential problems. First, the fuel is seriously contaminated with the dissolved materials. Second. the seals and other parts needed to keep the fuel flowing and contained disappear. I have been trying to look into this whole problem since the warning email from EAA asked for political action in my state (WA) to prevent the existing bill requiring ethanol in all fuels from becoming law. The law did not include avgas in its final version, but it requires ethanol in all motor fuels other than avgas. I don't have all the answers yet, but one show stopper is the requirement in the Jabiru operating/maintenance manual that requires use of alcohol free fuel. I believe this is typical of all aircraft engines. Paul XL wings >The real life issue is in fact the fuel boiling (particularly if the >fuel gets warmed by sunshine on the wings) when the pressure is >significantly reduced by the pump having to suck it uphill in the fuel line. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:37 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I don't have all the answers yet, but one show stopper is the requirement in the Jabiru operating/maintenance manual that requires use of alcohol free fuel. I believe this is typical of all aircraft engines. It is typical and the point you make about the seals is valid...BUT.... Alcohol proof seals are available. Indeed Airflow Perfromance uses seals that are alcohol compatible in their aircraft engine FI systems. The real problem posed by the makers of Lycoming clones is the susceptability to vapour lock and thus "forbid" the use of Alcohol. When I started digging on this issue I found what they were really talking about was fuel boiling in the fuel injection lines...This is NOT vapour lock...This is a "hot start" issue and taxiing issue. Secondly all "proper" aircraft engines come with mechanical fuel pumps. The undercolw temps on aircooled engines on the ground are usually WAAY higher compared to a water cooled engine. So now think about it...Mechaical fuel pump in a VERY hot cowl...What do mechanical pumps do in a low wing airplane?...They suck...(in more ways than one) on what is now WARM fuel. Yes I know they all have blast tubes to cool them but they barely work to avoid VL on take off after a hot taxi. This is a potentially deadly setup as warm fuel will boil with almost no provacation from sucking. It is hardly any wonder then that they are nervous of using an even higher vapour pressure fuel than 92 Octane mogas, especially when the thing coughs and splutters during taxi due to the injection lie boiling issue. Of course there is normally an electric boost pump to augment the mechanical pump but they cannot guarantee a prospective builder won't try to avoid the complexity of the electric pump. So I think the seal issue is resolvable (whether Jabauru will provide such seals is another matter of course) and if electric fuel pumps are used in the "hydraulically correct" place then alcohol might be much less of a demon than the airplane engine makers proclaim it is. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:53 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz --> There is another deadly issue with alcohol in aviation fuel. With many states and the feds pushing use of alcohol we all face this issue if we use anything but 100LL in our planes. This could be really fatal if the availability of 100LL ends -- a likely event since there is only one company in the world making the key ingredient for 100LL Tetra Ethyl Lead. Alcohol is a strong solvent. This means it will dissolve some of the materials used to seal up our power plants and fuel storage/transport systems. When this happens there are two potential problems. First, the fuel is seriously contaminated with the dissolved materials. Second. the seals and other parts needed to keep the fuel flowing and contained disappear. I have been trying to look into this whole problem since the warning email from EAA asked for political action in my state (WA) to prevent the existing bill requiring ethanol in all fuels from becoming law. The law did not include avgas in its final version, but it requires ethanol in all motor fuels other than avgas. I don't have all the answers yet, but one show stopper is the requirement in the Jabiru operating/maintenance manual that requires use of alcohol free fuel. I believe this is typical of all aircraft engines. Paul XL wings >The real life issue is in fact the fuel boiling (particularly if the >fuel gets warmed by sunshine on the wings) when the pressure is >significantly reduced by the pump having to suck it uphill in the fuel line. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:11 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" The fact that Alcohol is a solvent is NOT the problem. Alcohol with moisture is a weak organic acid; corrosive. If solvents were a problem, then there would not be any toluene in 100 low lead as an octane enhancer. Toluene can and has taken the paint off airplanes. Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > > There is another deadly issue with alcohol in aviation fuel. With > many states and the feds pushing use of alcohol we all face this > issue if we use anything but 100LL in our planes. This could be > really fatal if the availability of 100LL ends -- a likely event > since there is only one company in the world making the key > ingredient for 100LL Tetra Ethyl Lead. > > Alcohol is a strong solvent. This means it will dissolve some of the > materials used to seal up our power plants and fuel storage/transport > systems. When this happens there are two potential problems. First, > the fuel is seriously contaminated with the dissolved > materials. Second. the seals and other parts needed to keep the fuel > flowing and contained disappear. > > I have been trying to look into this whole problem since the warning > email from EAA asked for political action in my state (WA) to prevent > the existing bill requiring ethanol in all fuels from becoming > law. The law did not include avgas in its final version, but it > requires ethanol in all motor fuels other than avgas. > > I don't have all the answers yet, but one show stopper is the > requirement in the Jabiru operating/maintenance manual that requires > use of alcohol free fuel. I believe this is typical of all aircraft > engines. > > Paul > XL wings > > >>The real life issue is in fact the fuel boiling (particularly if the >>fuel gets warmed by sunshine on the wings) when the pressure is >>significantly reduced by the pump having to suck it uphill in the fuel >>line. > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:39 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Paul: I see you missed two points. I mention them only to reinforce your stand on ethanol. First alcohol has a natural affinity to water. This will allow water to pass through your gascolator and enter the venturi of your carburettor where it can freeze into ice. So the possibility of carb ice increases with ethanol. The second point is for those poor folks among which I'm one who presently fly a two stroke engine. The lead in 100 LL ( that should be 100 Loaded with Lead) will come out of suspension with the gas and deposit itself in the roller bearings of our engines. This is a lot more dangerous than just fouling the plugs!! I noticed the group representing the people who build the ethanol plants were saying that the cost of production of ethanol is less than gasoline. I'll put it straight .... They are lying !! Unless the farms where the sugar cane or corn is grown are growing the plants without the use of Diesel tractors or harvesters and don't have to pump their water, the cost of making ethanol will always be higher than fossil fuel and the green house gasses given off by the production will be higher than if the ethanol weren't made in the first place. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Paul Mulwitz > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:23 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > > There is another deadly issue with alcohol in aviation fuel. With > many states and the feds pushing use of alcohol we all face this > issue if we use anything but 100LL in our planes. This could be > really fatal if the availability of 100LL ends -- a likely event > since there is only one company in the world making the key > ingredient for 100LL Tetra Ethyl Lead. > > Alcohol is a strong solvent. This means it will dissolve some of the > materials used to seal up our power plants and fuel storage/transport > systems. When this happens there are two potential problems. First, > the fuel is seriously contaminated with the dissolved > materials. Second. the seals and other parts needed to keep the fuel > flowing and contained disappear. > > I have been trying to look into this whole problem since the warning > email from EAA asked for political action in my state (WA) to prevent > the existing bill requiring ethanol in all fuels from becoming > law. The law did not include avgas in its final version, but it > requires ethanol in all motor fuels other than avgas. > > I don't have all the answers yet, but one show stopper is the > requirement in the Jabiru operating/maintenance manual that requires > use of alcohol free fuel. I believe this is typical of all > aircraft engines. > > Paul > XL wings ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:11 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > I don't have all the answers yet, but one show stopper is the > requirement in the Jabiru operating/maintenance manual that requires > use of alcohol free fuel. I believe this is typical of all aircraft > engines. I'm willing to bet that the seals are not the only reason that Jabiru requires the use of alcohol free fuel. Another reason could be the amount of water vapour, or lack of it given off when alcohol burns. Also any blow by could cause some interesting things in the crank case. Oh yes alcohol has an affinity for water... How do you feel about water condensing inside your crank case? If ethanol was economically feasible for all, not just the people who erect the ethanol plants I'd say we have to work around it. But .... The production of ethanol causes elevated emissions of green house gasses and at best it's a stop gap. Something worse than putting Chicory in coffee to stretch out the coffee. Noel ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:29 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Eight hours bottle to throttle should be for planes as well as pilots. For any one who has composite fuel tanks believe me the solvent action of ethanol is paramount. There is two ways of protecting your engines form the effects of ethanol. Mix a bit of "Top Lube" in with the gas... Ethanol has an affinity for water but it has a greater affinity for oil. The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash it out with water which is easy to separate from the gas. Noel > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > The fact that Alcohol is a solvent is NOT the problem. Alcohol with > moisture is a weak organic acid; corrosive. > > If solvents were a problem, then there would not be any > toluene in 100 low > lead as an octane enhancer. Toluene can and has taken the paint off > airplanes. > > Cy Galley > EAA Safety Programs Editor > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:01 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Actually the major cause of camshaft failure in Lycomings is corrosion from water that already collects in crankcase even using 100LL...At least that is the theory... It's a shame the political weight that has been thrown behind this ethanol production nonsense. Probably too late to stop it now unless something unpleasant happens...Like Chernobyl for instance. I even heard sombody saying...WOW E85 is 15C a gallon cheaper!...yes and it will get less miles for every one of those gallons too! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:58 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > I don't have all the answers yet, but one show stopper is the > requirement in the Jabiru operating/maintenance manual that requires > use of alcohol free fuel. I believe this is typical of all aircraft > engines. I'm willing to bet that the seals are not the only reason that Jabiru requires the use of alcohol free fuel. Another reason could be the amount of water vapour, or lack of it given off when alcohol burns. Also any blow by could cause some interesting things in the crank case. Oh yes alcohol has an affinity for water... How do you feel about water condensing inside your crank case? If ethanol was economically feasible for all, not just the people who erect the ethanol plants I'd say we have to work around it. But .... The production of ethanol causes elevated emissions of green house gasses and at best it's a stop gap. Something worse than putting Chicory in coffee to stretch out the coffee. Noel ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:15 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL- Rubber engine Mounts Jab --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Dear Thread Friends, any of you folks out there seen any deterioration in you mounting rubber grommets for the 3300 Jab ? I looked at some photos of my plane last night taken a year ago and the prop spinner was much further up on the front face of the top cowl. I am wondering if the rubber on the JAB FWF kit may be too soft or deteriorating. Anybody seen anything similar? Pete from Jab told me at S N F that some builders were trying the rubber mounts from Sonix, but they proved too hard and vibration was readily transferred. Hope to hear from you. Bill ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" The problem with that is there will be a major change in the octane of the final fuel. If it was 87 octane with the Ethanol it isn't going to be 87 without the Ethanol. noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca wrote: > > The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash it out with water > which is easy to separate from the gas. > > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37728#37728 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:44 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" What you say is true. What other octane boosters are available??? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Gig Giacona > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:53 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > > The problem with that is there will be a major change in the > octane of the final fuel. If it was 87 octane with the > Ethanol it isn't going to be 87 without the Ethanol. > > > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca wrote: > > > > The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash > it out with water > > which is easy to separate from the gas. > > > > > > > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37728#37728 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:36 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Fritz- My tongue-in-cheek, obviously poorly stated point was that proving a Zenith has a 6g stress limit is something none of us want to experience. Regardless of who built the plane, if I were in a situation where I was pulling 6gs, I'd know the end was near and be kicking myself for ever getting into it. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Big Gee" Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee > > Tom-- I agree with you 100 % and didn't intend to imply otherwise. > However, if one has to "swivel his neck" checking for all the loose > rivets than it is an aiplane which I wouldn't want to be in. I don't > think many of us are going to pull 6 g's. But, if something should happen > that we come close, the airplane shouldn't come apart. > Hate to see my post taken for what it wasn't ment-------- Build a safe > airplane, if any doubts, ask. > Fritz ------ Corvair > do not archive > > > Tom and Bren Henderson wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom and Bren Henderson > > Lest your post scare off undecided newbies, we should probably quantify > "questionable work". We're not building lunar modules here. Yes, we're > building flying machines. Yes, we'll strap our butts to them and terrorize > the bugs. Does that mean a slight scratch in a fuselage skin shall be > cause for rework? Certainly not! > There are critical areas of the airframe that demand strict attention to > published standards. Big Gee is completely correct in the statement that > Chris will happily answer any and all workmanship questions. > We need to remember however that one rivet that is 1mm off the given edge > distance, in a row of 40, should not be cause to scrap the parts. If that > were the case, many of the parts right off Zenith's line would require > re-work (they aren't known for their straight rivet lines). Oh, and don't > pull 6 G's ! :- ) > > Big Gee wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee > > If you built the airplane to that standard, it shouldn't be in the air. > Any questionable work should be reaccomplished as you proceed in the > building process. Any doubts contact Cris H. with scatches and he'll be > glad to give you the corrective action. > Fritz ----Corvair > do not archive > > > Bill Naumuk wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Question- > How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every > rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while > pulling 6 gs? > > Bill > > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Martin" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM > Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > >> >> You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the >> design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed >> in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most >> certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a >> statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value. > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > --------------------------------- > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:10 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Welder experiment --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" All- My apologies for getting so far off track re: my uncle. I honestly = don't know why I was so affected this Memorial Day. Since there doesn't seem to be a wealth of knowledge about = oxy-propane welding, I'll try it on scraps of .016, .025, .032, and .040 = T-6 and let you know how it turns out. The results will definitely be = real world, because I've never welded aluminum before. So people don't = freak out, this is a test, only a test!=20 1. Any special surface prep? 2. What grade rods should I use for the different thicknesses? 3. Do you need an additional flux (What grade) or is it integral = with the rod? All input appreciated. = Bill do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:29 PM PST US From: "tinerj2005@tinerj.com" Subject: Zenith-List: Load Limit --> Zenith-List message posted by: "tinerj2005@tinerj.com" The load limit, also known as ultimate load, is not for continuous operation. In my copy of Mountain Flying, Sparky Imeson says it is for at least 3 seconds. (3.001 seconds meets the criteria.) I am thinking the safety margin lets the plane withstand that first bump from unexpected turblance - vertical gusts. The pilot must quickly slow to manuvering speed. John Hudson Tiner -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:18 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine From: "Bill Cardell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" toluene Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) www.flyinmiata.com 1-800-FLY-MX5S tech 970-242-3800 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:09 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" What you say is true. What other octane boosters are available??? Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig > Giacona > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:53 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > > The problem with that is there will be a major change in the octane of > the final fuel. If it was 87 octane with the Ethanol it isn't going to > be 87 without the Ethanol. > > > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca wrote: > > > > The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash > it out with water > > which is easy to separate from the gas. > > > > > > > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37728#37728 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:52 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Is Toluene available? I've only seen it discussed as a refinery additive. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Bill Cardell > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:35 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" > > > toluene > > > Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) > www.flyinmiata.com > 1-800-FLY-MX5S > tech 970-242-3800 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Noel Loveys > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:09 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > What you say is true. > > What other octane boosters are available??? > > Noel > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig > > Giacona > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:53 PM > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > > > > > The problem with that is there will be a major change in > the octane of > > > the final fuel. If it was 87 octane with the Ethanol it > isn't going to > > > be 87 without the Ethanol. > > > > > > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca wrote: > > > > > > The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash > > it out with water > > > which is easy to separate from the gas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > > 601XL Under Construction > > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37728#37728 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:30 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" You can buy it in lab quantities from Fisher Scientific, if nowhere else. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > Is Toluene available? I've only seen it discussed as a refinery > additive. > > Noel > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Bill Cardell >> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:35 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine >> >> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" >> >> >> toluene >> >> >> Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) >> www.flyinmiata.com >> 1-800-FLY-MX5S >> tech 970-242-3800 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Noel Loveys >> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:09 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine >> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" >> >> What you say is true. >> >> What other octane boosters are available??? >> >> Noel >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig >> > Giacona >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:53 PM >> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine >> > >> > >> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" >> >> > >> > The problem with that is there will be a major change in >> the octane of >> >> > the final fuel. If it was 87 octane with the Ethanol it >> isn't going to >> >> > be 87 without the Ethanol. >> > >> > >> > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca wrote: >> > > >> > > The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash >> > it out with water >> > > which is easy to separate from the gas. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -------- >> > W.R. "Gig" Giacona >> > 601XL Under Construction >> > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37728#37728 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine From: "Bill Cardell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" Most hardware and paint stores carry it. Works wonders in forced induction applications to kill knock. TurboDog's Dad Bill Cardell www.flyinmiata.com 1-800-FLY-MX5S 970-242-3800 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:52 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Is Toluene available? I've only seen it discussed as a refinery additive. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill > Cardell > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:35 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" > > > toluene > > > Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) > www.flyinmiata.com > 1-800-FLY-MX5S > tech 970-242-3800 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel > Loveys > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:09 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > What you say is true. > > What other octane boosters are available??? > > Noel > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig > > Giacona > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:53 PM > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > > > > > The problem with that is there will be a major change in > the octane of > > > the final fuel. If it was 87 octane with the Ethanol it > isn't going to > > > be 87 without the Ethanol. > > > > > > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca wrote: > > > > > > The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash > > it out with water > > > which is easy to separate from the gas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > > 601XL Under Construction > > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37728#37728 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:49 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" It can be had at your local Sherwin-Williams paint store... I used to buy it and use it as an additive in kart racing engines... Randy http://www.n344rb.com 601XL - Plans Building Working on Wings Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > Is Toluene available? I've only seen it discussed as a refinery > additive. > > Noel > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Bill Cardell >> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:35 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine >> >> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" >> >> >> toluene >> >> >> Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) >> www.flyinmiata.com >> 1-800-FLY-MX5S >> tech 970-242-3800 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Noel Loveys >> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:09 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine >> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" >> >> What you say is true. >> >> What other octane boosters are available??? >> >> Noel >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig >> > Giacona >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:53 PM >> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine >> > >> > >> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" >> >> > >> > The problem with that is there will be a major change in >> the octane of >> >> > the final fuel. If it was 87 octane with the Ethanol it >> isn't going to >> >> > be 87 without the Ethanol. >> > >> > >> > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca wrote: >> > > >> > > The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash >> > it out with water >> > > which is easy to separate from the gas. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -------- >> > W.R. "Gig" Giacona >> > 601XL Under Construction >> > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37728#37728 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:34 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" I guess the last question is how much would you add to a gallon of gas to increase the octane rating the 5 or so points lost by the removal of ethanol?? I read somewhere that mixing kero 1:100 with gasoline will also increase the octane rating about 5 points. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Bill Naumuk > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 9:57 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > You can buy it in lab quantities from Fisher Scientific, if > nowhere else. > > Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:51 PM > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > Is Toluene available? I've only seen it discussed as a refinery > > additive. > > > > Noel > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > >> Bill Cardell > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:35 PM > >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > >> > >> > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" > >> > >> > >> toluene > >> > >> > >> Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) > >> www.flyinmiata.com > >> 1-800-FLY-MX5S > >> tech 970-242-3800 > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > >> Noel Loveys > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:09 PM > >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > >> > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > >> > >> What you say is true. > >> > >> What other octane boosters are available??? > >> > >> Noel > >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > >> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig > >> > Giacona > >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:53 PM > >> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >> > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Design for Alcohol Engine > >> > > >> > > >> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > >> > >> > > >> > The problem with that is there will be a major change in > >> the octane of > >> > >> > the final fuel. If it was 87 octane with the Ethanol it > >> isn't going to > >> > >> > be 87 without the Ethanol. > >> > > >> > > >> > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca wrote: > >> > > > >> > > The other way is to remove the ethanol from the gas. Wash > >> > it out with water > >> > > which is easy to separate from the gas. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -------- > >> > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > >> > 601XL Under Construction > >> > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Read this topic online here: > >> > > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37728#37728 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:34 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: Zenith-List: More Flying Report: Phil Maxson's 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" When I first started my kit, the factory demonstrator had not yet flown passengers. I started the XL on faith. I started building component kits, because there WAS no complete kit offered. I built the tail first, and had the joy of re-building the rear fuse, because the plans changed! Gregg Jannakos is now flying around in his HDS with the first rear fuse I built. In any case, six years later, I can tell you have the XL/Corvair combination flies. When you punch that throttle to the firewall, and it pins you back into your seat, there is no feeling in the world like it! I'm still in awe that I built the airplane -- and it flies straight. I built the engine too -- and it is strong and growls. It sounds like and airplane is supposed to sound. My home airport, Hackettstown, (N05) ( http://www.airnav.com/airport/N05 ) is a throwback to the past. It is uphill in all directions. The only level spot on the field is at the crest of the hill in the middle of the paved runway. It looks a lot shorter than it is since you can't see one end of the runway from the other. Every time I've landed there in Cessnas, they all refuse to fly before they crest the hill. Now, if my XL were to make it to the top of the hill without flying, there would be a problem! This baby likes to climb! Even at gross, it is a great performer. With just me in the plane I can sustain 1200 ft/min. Stalls in the XL are a no event. Power off, there is no break. The plane buffets and mushes along loosing altitude until you point the nose down. All control surfaces are effective throughout. Power on, you do get a nose drop, but it comes back to climb attitude right away. The two times I've tried to do power on stalls, I've gained about 1000 ft of altitude. More later. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:27 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Snip: Jerome- No HDS builder will dispute this. Once again, a trade off. How much time and money is it going to take to scratchbuild a spring gear vs bungee? I don't think raw stock that thick is going to come cheap! Bill, I bought a 10' length for less than $100, and built the gear in less than 4 hours. The mounts took a couple of hours as well, and required a milling machine. I used a slightly thicker piece of aluminum than the 701 uses. If you have the gear legs that came with your kit, then go with the bungee gear. If you are scratch building, and are interested in the spring gear, e-mail me off list for more information. R/ Brandon Spinner installed today __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welder experiment From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" To the best of my recall you need flux and blue lenses for gas welding aluminum. Here is a link where you might get some pointers: I worked with a guy who would cut thin strips (1/8 wide) off the same sheet to use as filler rod and he would gas weld tacks first then, fluxing both the base metals and the rod. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37811#37811