Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:28 AM - Re: Scratch building??? Maybe?? (Debo Cox)
2. 05:19 AM - Re: Aileron trim (or not) (Noel Loveys)
3. 07:55 AM - Re: Aileron trim (or not) ()
4. 07:56 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (norman)
5. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Scratch building??? Maybe?? (Trainnut01@aol.com)
6. 08:25 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
7. 08:33 AM - Re: Aileron trim (or not) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
8. 08:46 AM - 601 Parts for Sale or Trade (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
9. 08:57 AM - Re: Scratch building& (Dave and Jan Clay)
10. 09:10 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Randy Bryant)
11. 09:42 AM - Re: 601 Parts for Sale or Trade (Randy Bryant)
12. 09:48 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Randy Bryant)
13. 10:49 AM - Fw: Re: Corroded Fuel Tank/ questions (Big Gee)
14. 11:00 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Carlos Sa)
15. 11:02 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
16. 11:15 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Craig Moore)
17. 11:28 AM - 601 Track width (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
18. 11:44 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
19. 11:59 AM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Randy Bryant)
20. 01:13 PM - Re: 601 Track width (Gig Giacona)
21. 01:13 PM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Craig Moore)
22. 01:31 PM - Re: Re: 601 Track width (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
23. 01:31 PM - Re: 601 Track width (LarryMcFarland)
24. 01:52 PM - Re: 601 Track width (George Swinford)
25. 01:57 PM - Re: 601 Track width (George Swinford)
26. 02:07 PM - Re: 601 Track width (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
27. 02:29 PM - Re: 601 Track width (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
28. 03:01 PM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Noel Loveys)
29. 03:25 PM - Re: Zenith info Thanks (calkath@infostations.com)
30. 03:33 PM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Zodie Rocket)
31. 03:33 PM - Re: Aluminum pricing (Bill Naumuk)
32. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: CH601HD/HDS Main Gear (Bill Naumuk)
33. 04:17 PM - Re: Re: 601 Track width ()
34. 04:20 PM - Re: Aileron trim (or not) (N601RT)
35. 04:28 PM - Re: CH-701 and Czech Amphib floats (Jean-Paul Roy)
36. 04:29 PM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Dave)
37. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: CH601HD/HDS Main Gear (Bill Naumuk)
38. 06:26 PM - Re: Aluminum pricing (Steve Hulland)
39. 06:41 PM - Re: Re: CH600 brake lines & Cont A65 prop (Steve Hulland)
40. 08:33 PM - Riviting the elevator hinge ? (Hudsonmusic1@aol.com)
41. 10:15 PM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (Noel Loveys)
42. 11:25 PM - Re: Aluminum pricing (Tom and Bren Henderson)
43. 11:40 PM - Re: Bolt Torque Specs (normskiroo@ukonl)
44. 11:48 PM - Re: XL spring gearXL spring gear (normskiroo@ukonl)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Scratch building??? Maybe?? |
Hi John,
I'm still fairly new to the whole process (I've been scratch-building my XL for
almost a year now), but I can tell you that with patience, a few specialized
tools, and a healthy dose of common sense you can totally make scratch-building
work for you. I too am one of the more "financially challenged" builders,
but here's how I do it. Very simply put, I keep my inventory low. I put in an
$800 order to Yarde Metals at the beginning of my build, and I'm still working
off that shipment of metal. When it runs out, I'll order more. Prices may fluctuate,
and shipping may make it cost almost the same in the long run, but the
truth of my situation is that it's easier for me to afford $800 twice than $1600
once.
I orderd the scratch-build DVD's and they gave me a huge dose of confidence.
In some cases, it appeared to me that I was trying to make things too precise.
What the videos did for me was give me great ideas for getting things accomplished,
and reinforce what I read from Chris Heinz about building a LSA - not a
jet fighter.
At any rate, my position was pretty much the same as a few others - scratch build,
or don't build at all. I've found it to be a reasonably simple, extremely
rewarding way to operate, and I'd recommend you go for it. You can always go
back to buying component kits (or any piece for that matter) that you want.
If it helps, here's my log on mykitlog.com. It details fairly well my thoughts
and processes along the way. Like I said, I'm no expert, but like anybody who's
read William Wynne's manual will tell you, I've finally got my seat at the
table. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time my friend.
www.mykitlog.com/debo
Debo Cox
__________________________________________________
Message 2
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| Subject: | Aileron trim (or not) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Now I C said the blind man....
I agree the less fangdangling around the controls the better. With the
tabs once set up there is nothing to tangle or jam or even just get in the
way.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Paul Mulwitz
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:10 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Aileron trim (or not)
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Sorry for the confusion. There are two different airplanes involved
> in this discussion.
>
> The bungee rudder trim was on the Cessna. The aileron trim is
> installed on my Zodiac XL.
>
> I used the Cessna example to point out that, in my experience, bungee
> trim is not a desirable choice compared to good old fashioned
> trim tabs.
>
> Paul
> XL wings
> do not archive
>
>
> At 06:51 PM 6/12/2006, you wrote:
> >I must be missing something here... You have a problem with
> the rudder trim
> >and you put a tab on the aileron??? Why not put a fixed tab
> on the rudder??
> >
> >Noel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Aileron trim (or not) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
> Now I C said the blind man....
>
> I agree the less fangdangling around the controls the better. With the
> tabs once set up there is nothing to tangle or jam or even just get in the
> way.
>
> Noel
Not exactly...... you are considering building and flying a plane which may or
may not have a 200 pound or so passenger in the right seat. Add to that the unavoidable
fact that as you fly, you will burn fuel out of one wing tank then the
other. Even if you choose the standard wing tanks, that fuel (12 gallons) weighs72
pounds.... and it's not in the fuselage in the right seat like the passenger,
it's out there in the wing with a larger moment arm off center.
You might say that you will switch back and forth from one tank to the other while
flying to minimize this shift in balance but that isn't the best choice either.
You really want to keep one tank as full as practical enroute so that you
can switch to it on approach. That gives you less chance of sucking air if you
have to accelerate on a go-around. That may not be practical depending on your
route and your rate of fuel burn but it's still a good idea.
Soap box session is now over. Reconsider inflight adjustable aileron trim for any
Zodiac 601 model even if you choose to use a simple cable type design.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / wings
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Bolt Torque Specs |
Hello Randy,
According to CZAW the recommended torque for the AN4 bolts are 50 to 70
in. lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the limit being 11.3 Nm.
Hope this helps.
Norman
601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Scratch building??? Maybe?? |
I've gotten excellent results just by holding the riveter in my right hand
and gripping the nosepiece between the thumb and forefinger of my left hand.
Very little bounce, and if it does bounce it hits the rivet head and not the
sheetmetal.
Carroll
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Bolt Torque Specs |
Actually the real limit is when you strip the threads! You cannot cause
a bolt to fail in service due to over torquing. They will break (if
subjected to vibrational tension changes that cuse fatigue) if you UNDER
torque them.
Bottom line (and I can't wait to get flamed on this...:)...) the listed
torques specs really are on the very bottom limit for comfort and I
assume are primarilly for fasteners in shear rather than tensile
applications.
You would never find a cylinder head or tensile faster with so little
torque, but they have been shown to work in practice . Mine are all a
little tighter than this though.
Frank
Do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of norman
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Hello Randy,
According to CZAW the recommended torque for the AN4 bolts are 50 to 70
in. lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the limit being 11.3 Nm.
Hope this helps.
Norman
601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Aileron trim (or not) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
If I were building a Zodiac today I would add aileron trim.
As to the comment about keeping a fuel tank nearly full...I would
suggest that rather depends on your fuel system design. If you use an
electric fuel pump in each wing root then it does not matter whether you
suck air on one side or not as the engine will continue to run. Not sure
I have ever got my fuel this low but it is nice to know the fuel system
can tolerate a huge slip with nearly empty tanks on final.
Frank
HDS 400 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
dredmoody@cox.net
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:31 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Aileron trim (or not)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
> Now I C said the blind man....
>
> I agree the less fangdangling around the controls the better. With
the
> tabs once set up there is nothing to tangle or jam or even just get in
> the way.
>
> Noel
Not exactly...... you are considering building and flying a plane which
may or may not have a 200 pound or so passenger in the right seat. Add
to that the unavoidable fact that as you fly, you will burn fuel out of
one wing tank then the other. Even if you choose the standard wing
tanks, that fuel (12 gallons) weighs72 pounds.... and it's not in the
fuselage in the right seat like the passenger, it's out there in the
wing with a larger moment arm off center.
You might say that you will switch back and forth from one tank to the
other while flying to minimize this shift in balance but that isn't the
best choice either. You really want to keep one tank as full as
practical enroute so that you can switch to it on approach. That gives
you less chance of sucking air if you have to accelerate on a go-around.
That may not be practical depending on your route and your rate of fuel
burn but it's still a good idea.
Soap box session is now over. Reconsider inflight adjustable aileron
trim for any Zodiac 601 model even if you choose to use a simple cable
type design.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / wings
Message 8
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| Subject: | 601 Parts for Sale or Trade |
Dear Thread Friends, for you scrap builders I have a deal for you ! I have
the parts for a center yoke control for a XL. May be the same as HD/HDS ? Did
not use them as I installed a dual stick. Will mail anywhere. Make me an offer
or trade me for something I don't have such as a good solid rivet squeezer.
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Scratch building& |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave and Jan Clay" <dclaytx2@hotmail.com>
Hey John,
I've visited your website several times. It looks like your doing quality
work. You should have no problem building from plans. I started building in
late January and have finished my tail section, flaps, ailerons, and most of
my wing ribs. I built a bending brake of my own design. If you are
interested, plans can be found on the yahoo CH601XL group. By the way, I
enjoyed your video on your website.
Dave
Temple, Texas
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Bolt Torque Specs |
I thought that the reason for torquing bolts was to achieve the proper
'stretch' in the bolt... I know in an engine, you torque rod bolts,
they stretch and apply tension to the rod caps and this helps hold the
cap on... If you over torque, you 'stretch' the bolt past its
elasticity and loose this extra holding capacity...
Maybe I'm wrong...?? I just hate having to tighten something as far as
it will go then 1/4 turn more as the torque specs...
Thanks!
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Actually the real limit is when you strip the threads! You cannot
cause a bolt to fail in service due to over torquing. They will break
(if subjected to vibrational tension changes that cuse fatigue) if you
UNDER torque them.
Bottom line (and I can't wait to get flamed on this...:)...) the
listed torques specs really are on the very bottom limit for comfort and
I assume are primarilly for fasteners in shear rather than tensile
applications.
You would never find a cylinder head or tensile faster with so little
torque, but they have been shown to work in practice . Mine are all a
little tighter than this though.
Frank
Do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of norman
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:54 AM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Hello Randy,
According to CZAW the recommended torque for the AN4 bolts are 50 to
70 in. lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the limit being 11.3 Nm.
Hope this helps.
Norman
601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Parts for Sale or Trade |
Bill,
I'd be interested... This would be 1 less part I'll have to build... I
don't have any tools to trade (since I'm building a plane, I'm using
most of them! :-) ), but if you'll give me your price on this, I may
just take it off your hands... Tell me how much $$$ you want... I never
price someone elses merchandise...
Thanks much,
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:44 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Parts for Sale or Trade
Dear Thread Friends, for you scrap builders I have a deal for you ! I
have the parts for a center yoke control for a XL. May be the same as
HD/HDS ? Did not use them as I installed a dual stick. Will mail
anywhere. Make me an offer or trade me for something I don't have such
as a good solid rivet squeezer. Best regards, Bill of Georgia
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Bolt Torque Specs |
Thanks Frank,
It looks like I'm gonna agree with you after all... I just got a
response back from ZAC about the torque of these bolts and here's what
they said:
"For proper bolt selection and installation, please refer to the FAA
publication, Acceptable Methods Techniques, and Practices: AIRCRAFT
INSPECTION AND REPAIR AC 43.13-1B"
We all know what that says, 50-70 inch pounds... Its a crying shame
that a go-kart manufacturer can tell you specifically to torque certain
bolts, used in certain applications, to an exact spec, and aircraft
manufacturers can't... (I guess they're too busy keeping their rivets
exactly 8mm from the edge) Even the auto makers do this... They'll
tell you specifically how many foot/pounds or inch/pounds to tighten
certain bolts, not some broad range of 50-70 inch pounds...
I guess I'll just tighten em' as tight as they'll go, then go about 1/4
turn more... that should do it..
Thanks,
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Actually the real limit is when you strip the threads! You cannot
cause a bolt to fail in service due to over torquing. They will break
(if subjected to vibrational tension changes that cuse fatigue) if you
UNDER torque them.
Bottom line (and I can't wait to get flamed on this...:)...) the
listed torques specs really are on the very bottom limit for comfort and
I assume are primarilly for fasteners in shear rather than tensile
applications.
You would never find a cylinder head or tensile faster with so little
torque, but they have been shown to work in practice . Mine are all a
little tighter than this though.
Frank
Do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of norman
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:54 AM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Hello Randy,
According to CZAW the recommended torque for the AN4 bolts are 50 to
70 in. lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the limit being 11.3 Nm.
Hope this helps.
Norman
601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Corroded Fuel Tank/ questions |
Randy-- sorry to hear about your fuel tank leaks. Could you please share a few
more details with the group?
Did you buy your tanks from Zac ? .032-- 6061-T6 ? How many layers of cork
did you put on/ around the tank? Did you "slosh" the inside of the tanks
with sloshing compound ( not that it would help, if chaffing was the cause)?
Do you think any of the leaks were caused by chaffing ? How much trouble
to open the wing ? Do you have to open up the complete length of the wing or
does ZAC allow you to cut the skin just outbd of the fuel tank so as you only
have open about 5' of the wing?
I know ZAC says to use .032--- 6061-T6. I had my tanks built from .040-------
5052-H32. I would have used .050 if I thought my brake could have bent it
ok. After bending the .040, I am sure my brake would have bent the .050 just
fine and the .050 is what I'd use if doing it again. .050 would have been easier
for the welder also.
Thanks for answers in advance, thanks for informing the group and good luck.
Fritz----- Corvair 90/90
Randy Stout <n282rs@earthlink.net> wrote:
Since my plane was going to be out of commission while I get another engine,
I thought I would work on my annual inspection. I had a little bit of a blue
stain around the fuel sender. Good time to fix that, especially since my wings
are not on the plane. When I filled the tank to test it, I could see fuel
seeping from under the ribs and out the bottom of the nose skin. I had to pull
the nose skin off to see where it was coming from. It appears that the cork
had soaked up some water and I have at least 5 holes that have been caused from
corrosion. Some of them are actually on the top of the tank.
I think the only reason I did not notice it before, was because the fit between
the cork , wing skin, and tank was pretty tight. When we took the wings off
to transport the plane home, this wing was upside down on the trailer. I'm sure
that shook things loose, opening up the holes. I'll have to pull the other
tank to see if it has the same problem.
For those who are building, maybe it would be a good idea to prime and paint
your tanks before closing up your wings. I had not done this, but will this time.
For now, I'm trying to decide if I want to make fiberglass tanks like the ones
shown on CH601.org, or do like Carlos Sa did with his riveted tanks. I also
see that Bill Morelli had to repair his tanks in December and used something other
than cork. Bill, Are you still happy with the foam? Does it have a brand
name? I want to make sure I pick up the same stuff. Got any pictures?
Randy Stout
n282rs"at"earthlink.net
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
__________________________________________________
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Bolt Torque Specs |
Randy, I think you are quite right.
The more torque you apply, the closer the material gets to "plastic" (as opposed
to "elastic").
There is a lot of good reading material out there. I found this one to be interesting:
http://www.auf.asn.au/scratchbuilder/hardware.html
Cheers
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Building aeroplanes (one) since 1999. A tradition in the making.
----- Original Message ----
From: Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:08:16 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
I thought that the reason for torquing bolts was to achieve the proper
'stretch' in the bolt... I know in an engine, you torque rod bolts, they stretch
and apply tension to the rod caps and this helps hold the cap on... If
you over torque, you 'stretch' the bolt past its elasticity and loose this extra
holding capacity...
Maybe I'm wrong...?? I just hate having to tighten something as far as it will
go then 1/4 turn more as the torque specs...
Thanks!
Randy
Message 15
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| Subject: | Bolt Torque Specs |
There is no way on Earth you will stretch AN bolts with the miniscule
listed torque specs. The AN4 is listed at about 6 ft lbs...On a cylinder
head this would be more like 15lbs and it still won't stretch.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Bryant
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
I thought that the reason for torquing bolts was to achieve the proper
'stretch' in the bolt... I know in an engine, you torque rod bolts,
they stretch and apply tension to the rod caps and this helps hold the
cap on... If you over torque, you 'stretch' the bolt past its
elasticity and loose this extra holding capacity...
Maybe I'm wrong...?? I just hate having to tighten something as far as
it will go then 1/4 turn more as the torque specs...
Thanks!
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
<mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Actually the real limit is when you strip the threads! You
cannot cause a bolt to fail in service due to over torquing. They will
break (if subjected to vibrational tension changes that cuse fatigue) if
you UNDER torque them.
Bottom line (and I can't wait to get flamed on this...:)...) the
listed torques specs really are on the very bottom limit for comfort and
I assume are primarilly for fasteners in shear rather than tensile
applications.
You would never find a cylinder head or tensile faster with so
little torque, but they have been shown to work in practice . Mine are
all a little tighter than this though.
Frank
Do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of norman
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:54 AM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Hello Randy,
According to CZAW the recommended torque for the AN4 bolts are
50 to 70 in. lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the limit being 11.3 Nm.
Hope this helps.
Norman
601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Bolt Torque Specs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
Randy,
Remember that the torque is to be added to the running
torque of the nut. If you are using self locking nuts,
then you need to measure the amount of torque required
to turn the nut and add it to the 50 - 70 in. lbs. If
you really want to get educated on threaded fastener
torque, go here and look at MIL-HDBK-60.
http://www.combatindex.com/mil_docs/mil_hdbk_index_01.html
This is a great link and all should bookmark it. Lots
of info here.
BTW - At the end of the handbook, it shows a chart
that looks like the AN4 bolt, which is a 125ksi
tensile material, would require approx. 100 in. lbs.
of torque, the max value given in the 43.13.
Small flame for Frank,
Excessive torque can be a bad thing too, especially if
you exceed the elastic limit of the bolt. Over time,
with cyclic loading and vibration, the preload on the
fastener will be gone, resulting in a situation you
described - undertorque. As another lister noted, bolt
stretch is commonly used as a method of checking for
proper preload. But, the value is within the elastic
limits. All of this is the reason that we go back and
retorque fasteners after a certain time. Also, in the
type of joint we are talking about, the use of many
bolts is because the majority of the shear loads are
transferred through friction of the joint components,
and the load is spread over a large area and not just
taken up by the bolt shanks. Lose the preload, and you
cause stresses to be concentrated at the bolts, thats
were elongated holes come from.
Ducking,
Craig Moore A&P
701 builder wannabe
--- Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
> Thanks Frank,
>
> It looks like I'm gonna agree with you after all...
> I just got a response back from ZAC about the torque
> of these bolts and here's what they said:
>
> "For proper bolt selection and installation, please
> refer to the FAA
> publication, Acceptable Methods Techniques, and
> Practices: AIRCRAFT
> INSPECTION AND REPAIR AC 43.13-1B"
>
> We all know what that says, 50-70 inch pounds...
> Its a crying shame that a go-kart manufacturer can
> tell you specifically to torque certain bolts, used
> in certain applications, to an exact spec, and
> aircraft manufacturers can't... (I guess they're too
> busy keeping their rivets exactly 8mm from the edge)
> Even the auto makers do this... They'll tell you
> specifically how many foot/pounds or inch/pounds to
> tighten certain bolts, not some broad range of 50-70
> inch pounds...
>
> I guess I'll just tighten em' as tight as they'll
> go, then go about 1/4 turn more... that should do
> it..
>
> Thanks,
>
> Randy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:24 AM
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
>
>
> Actually the real limit is when you strip the
> threads! You cannot cause a bolt to fail in service
> due to over torquing. They will break (if subjected
> to vibrational tension changes that cuse fatigue) if
> you UNDER torque them.
>
> Bottom line (and I can't wait to get flamed on
> this...:)...) the listed torques specs really are on
> the very bottom limit for comfort and I assume are
> primarilly for fasteners in shear rather than
> tensile applications.
>
> You would never find a cylinder head or tensile
> faster with so little torque, but they have been
> shown to work in practice . Mine are all a little
> tighter than this though.
>
> Frank
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of norman
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:54 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
>
>
> Hello Randy,
>
> According to CZAW the recommended torque for the
> AN4 bolts are 50 to 70 in. lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the
> limit being 11.3 Nm.
> Hope this helps.
>
> Norman
> 601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
__________________________________________________
Message 17
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Guys I need yer help.
I have a guy who wants to buy my plane and trailer it away.
Can someone tell me...
1) The width to the outside of the main wheels
2) The width of the center spar...He may want to use an enclosed
trailer.
Thanks
Frank
601HDS 400 hours
Message 18
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| Subject: | Bolt Torque Specs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
No need to duck Craig...:)
Good point but...the point about "stretching" the bolt is basically
taking the fastener up to the top of its elastic limit...In fact most
cyl head bolts today cannot be reused so this presumably means the have
been torqued INTO their plastic range.
I am am not talking about going anywhere near that point....10 foot
pounds say will still be well within the elsatic range of a 1/4" 125kpsi
bolt.
But I agree...You can't just keep tightening the thing at will...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Moore
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
Randy,
Remember that the torque is to be added to the running torque of the
nut. If you are using self locking nuts, then you need to measure the
amount of torque required to turn the nut and add it to the 50 - 70 in.
lbs. If you really want to get educated on threaded fastener torque, go
here and look at MIL-HDBK-60.
http://www.combatindex.com/mil_docs/mil_hdbk_index_01.html
This is a great link and all should bookmark it. Lots of info here.
BTW - At the end of the handbook, it shows a chart that looks like the
AN4 bolt, which is a 125ksi tensile material, would require approx. 100
in. lbs.
of torque, the max value given in the 43.13.
Small flame for Frank,
Excessive torque can be a bad thing too, especially if you exceed the
elastic limit of the bolt. Over time, with cyclic loading and vibration,
the preload on the fastener will be gone, resulting in a situation you
described - undertorque. As another lister noted, bolt stretch is
commonly used as a method of checking for proper preload. But, the value
is within the elastic limits. All of this is the reason that we go back
and retorque fasteners after a certain time. Also, in the type of joint
we are talking about, the use of many bolts is because the majority of
the shear loads are transferred through friction of the joint
components, and the load is spread over a large area and not just taken
up by the bolt shanks. Lose the preload, and you cause stresses to be
concentrated at the bolts, thats were elongated holes come from.
Ducking,
Craig Moore A&P
701 builder wannabe
--- Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
> Thanks Frank,
>
> It looks like I'm gonna agree with you after all...
> I just got a response back from ZAC about the torque of these bolts
> and here's what they said:
>
> "For proper bolt selection and installation, please refer to the FAA
> publication, Acceptable Methods Techniques, and
> Practices: AIRCRAFT
> INSPECTION AND REPAIR AC 43.13-1B"
>
> We all know what that says, 50-70 inch pounds...
> Its a crying shame that a go-kart manufacturer can tell you
> specifically to torque certain bolts, used in certain applications, to
> an exact spec, and aircraft manufacturers can't... (I guess they're
> too busy keeping their rivets exactly 8mm from the edge) Even the
> auto makers do this... They'll tell you specifically how many
> foot/pounds or inch/pounds to tighten certain bolts, not some broad
> range of 50-70 inch pounds...
>
> I guess I'll just tighten em' as tight as they'll go, then go about
> 1/4 turn more... that should do it..
>
> Thanks,
>
> Randy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:24 AM
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
>
>
> Actually the real limit is when you strip the threads! You cannot
> cause a bolt to fail in service due to over torquing. They will break
> (if subjected to vibrational tension changes that cuse fatigue) if you
> UNDER torque them.
>
> Bottom line (and I can't wait to get flamed on
> this...:)...) the listed torques specs really are on the very bottom
> limit for comfort and I assume are primarilly for fasteners in shear
> rather than tensile applications.
>
> You would never find a cylinder head or tensile faster with so
> little torque, but they have been shown to work in practice . Mine are
> all a little tighter than this though.
>
> Frank
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of norman
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:54 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
>
>
> Hello Randy,
>
> According to CZAW the recommended torque for the
> AN4 bolts are 50 to 70 in. lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the limit being 11.3
> Nm.
> Hope this helps.
>
> Norman
> 601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
__________________________________________________
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Bolt Torque Specs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
Thanks Craig,
This is good info... This really helps... My fear was I wouldn't tighten
them enough and have to worry about that from now on after my plane is
flying, or be in fear that they are too tight and loose the preload...yet
another thing to worry about...
One more quick question for you:
Would a certain bolt such as an AN4 require the same torque regardless of
it's application (where it's being used on the plane) ?
Thanks much,
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Moore" <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
>
> Randy,
>
> Remember that the torque is to be added to the running
> torque of the nut. If you are using self locking nuts,
> then you need to measure the amount of torque required
> to turn the nut and add it to the 50 - 70 in. lbs. If
> you really want to get educated on threaded fastener
> torque, go here and look at MIL-HDBK-60.
>
> http://www.combatindex.com/mil_docs/mil_hdbk_index_01.html
>
> This is a great link and all should bookmark it. Lots
> of info here.
>
> BTW - At the end of the handbook, it shows a chart
> that looks like the AN4 bolt, which is a 125ksi
> tensile material, would require approx. 100 in. lbs.
> of torque, the max value given in the 43.13.
>
> Small flame for Frank,
> Excessive torque can be a bad thing too, especially if
> you exceed the elastic limit of the bolt. Over time,
> with cyclic loading and vibration, the preload on the
> fastener will be gone, resulting in a situation you
> described - undertorque. As another lister noted, bolt
> stretch is commonly used as a method of checking for
> proper preload. But, the value is within the elastic
> limits. All of this is the reason that we go back and
> retorque fasteners after a certain time. Also, in the
> type of joint we are talking about, the use of many
> bolts is because the majority of the shear loads are
> transferred through friction of the joint components,
> and the load is spread over a large area and not just
> taken up by the bolt shanks. Lose the preload, and you
> cause stresses to be concentrated at the bolts, thats
> were elongated holes come from.
>
> Ducking,
>
> Craig Moore A&P
> 701 builder wannabe
>
> --- Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Frank,
>>
>> It looks like I'm gonna agree with you after all...
>> I just got a response back from ZAC about the torque
>> of these bolts and here's what they said:
>>
>> "For proper bolt selection and installation, please
>> refer to the FAA
>> publication, Acceptable Methods Techniques, and
>> Practices: AIRCRAFT
>> INSPECTION AND REPAIR AC 43.13-1B"
>>
>> We all know what that says, 50-70 inch pounds...
>> Its a crying shame that a go-kart manufacturer can
>> tell you specifically to torque certain bolts, used
>> in certain applications, to an exact spec, and
>> aircraft manufacturers can't... (I guess they're too
>> busy keeping their rivets exactly 8mm from the edge)
>> Even the auto makers do this... They'll tell you
>> specifically how many foot/pounds or inch/pounds to
>> tighten certain bolts, not some broad range of 50-70
>> inch pounds...
>>
>> I guess I'll just tighten em' as tight as they'll
>> go, then go about 1/4 turn more... that should do
>> it..
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:24 AM
>> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
>>
>>
>> Actually the real limit is when you strip the
>> threads! You cannot cause a bolt to fail in service
>> due to over torquing. They will break (if subjected
>> to vibrational tension changes that cuse fatigue) if
>> you UNDER torque them.
>>
>> Bottom line (and I can't wait to get flamed on
>> this...:)...) the listed torques specs really are on
>> the very bottom limit for comfort and I assume are
>> primarilly for fasteners in shear rather than
>> tensile applications.
>>
>> You would never find a cylinder head or tensile
>> faster with so little torque, but they have been
>> shown to work in practice . Mine are all a little
>> tighter than this though.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On
>> Behalf Of norman
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:54 AM
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
>>
>>
>> Hello Randy,
>>
>> According to CZAW the recommended torque for the
>> AN4 bolts are 50 to 70 in. lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the
>> limit being 11.3 Nm.
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Norman
>> 601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Track width |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
Looking at the drawing on my wall it looks like the wheels are 7ft center to center
so add a foot or so.
Can't help with the spar question but I don't see how it would matter the gear
is the widest part of the fuselage.
The top of the rudder is ~78 inches from the ground.
frank.hinde(at)hp.com wrote:
> Guys I need yer help.
> ?
> I have a guy who wants to buy my plane and trailer it away.
> ?
> Can someone tell me...
> ?
> 1) The width to the outside of the main wheels
> 2) The width of the center spar...He may want to use an enclosed trailer.
> ?
> Thanks
> ?
> Frank
> 601HDS 400 hours
>
> ?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40779#40779
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Bolt Torque Specs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
Randy,
I assume you looked at the MIL-HDBK-60. Paragraph 4.2
gives the two type of shear loaded joints. One is like
your wing attach bolts. No sliding, with shear loads
transmitted by friction. Think of the other as like a
rod end or fork fitting. This type obviously does not
use friction to transmitt the load from one fitting to
the other, it goes through the bolt. In this case, the
torque is only to hold the joint together so that
bending loads do not occur on the bolt. A castle nut,
finger tight, then tight to line up the cotter pin
hole would suffice. On a high tensile load like an
engine mount to firewall, then the clamping force of
the rated torque would be used to keep the joint
together and prevent bending. Good luck building. I'll
be there one day.
Best regards,
Craig Moore A&P
701 builder wannabe
--- Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant"
> <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
>
> Thanks Craig,
>
> This is good info... This really helps... My fear
> was I wouldn't tighten
> them enough and have to worry about that from now on
> after my plane is
> flying, or be in fear that they are too tight and
> loose the preload...yet
> another thing to worry about...
>
> One more quick question for you:
> Would a certain bolt such as an AN4 require the same
> torque regardless of
> it's application (where it's being used on the
> plane) ?
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Randy
>
> Do Not Archive
>
snip
__________________________________________________
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Track width |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Unfortunatly the HDS is not like the XL...The wheels are not the widest
part, the center wing section is wider than the wheels.
Thanks all the same.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:11 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Track width
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
Looking at the drawing on my wall it looks like the wheels are 7ft
center to center so add a foot or so.
Can't help with the spar question but I don't see how it would matter
the gear is the widest part of the fuselage.
The top of the rudder is ~78 inches from the ground.
frank.hinde(at)hp.com wrote:
> Guys I need yer help.
> ?
> I have a guy who wants to buy my plane and trailer it away.
> ?
> Can someone tell me...
> ?
> 1) The width to the outside of the main wheels
> 2) The width of the center spar...He may want to use an enclosed
trailer.
> ?
> Thanks
> ?
> Frank
> 601HDS 400 hours
>
> ?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40779#40779
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601 Track width |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Frank,
The center spar material length is 2200mm or 86.61 inches. Your main gear
is about 5-inches narrower at Centerlines. Just fits onto a trailer I
have for
my HDS which is 84-inches wide. The 2200mm is without the splice
plates, so
you may have to remove them if you're going to try for inside a trailer.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/loadlfttiedown.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/loadedcenter.gif
It'll be close though.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
> Guys I need yer help.
>
> I have a guy who wants to buy my plane and trailer it away.
>
> Can someone tell me...
>
> 1) The width to the outside of the main wheels
> 2) The width of the center spar...He may want to use an enclosed trailer.
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank
> 601HDS 400 hours
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Track width |
Frank:
I just measured the distance between the outboard ends of the MLG axles
at 81 & 1/2 inches and the span of the center section (not including
splice plates) at 86 & 3/4 inches. Hope this helps.
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:26 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Track width
Guys I need yer help.
I have a guy who wants to buy my plane and trailer it away.
Can someone tell me...
1) The width to the outside of the main wheels
2) The width of the center spar...He may want to use an enclosed
trailer.
Thanks
Frank
601HDS 400 hours
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601 Track width |
Frank:
I forgot to mention that the airplane I measured is a 601HD. Should be
the same as your HDS.
George
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:26 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Track width
Guys I need yer help.
I have a guy who wants to buy my plane and trailer it away.
Can someone tell me...
1) The width to the outside of the main wheels
2) The width of the center spar...He may want to use an enclosed
trailer.
Thanks
Frank
601HDS 400 hours
Message 26
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Thanks Larry...
Much appreciated
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LarryMcFarland
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Track width
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland
--> <larry@macsmachine.com>
Frank,
The center spar material length is 2200mm or 86.61 inches. Your main
gear is about 5-inches narrower at Centerlines. Just fits onto a
trailer I have for my HDS which is 84-inches wide. The 2200mm is
without the splice plates, so you may have to remove them if you're
going to try for inside a trailer.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/loadlfttiedow
n.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/loadedcenter.
gif
It'll be close though.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
> Guys I need yer help.
>
> I have a guy who wants to buy my plane and trailer it away.
>
> Can someone tell me...
>
> 1) The width to the outside of the main wheels
> 2) The width of the center spar...He may want to use an enclosed
trailer.
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank
> 601HDS 400 hours
>
>
Message 27
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|
Awesome!....Actual measurements, even better...:)
Thanks George
Frank
Do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George
Swinford
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Track width
Frank:
I just measured the distance between the outboard ends of the MLG axles
at 81 & 1/2 inches and the span of the center section (not including
splice plates) at 86 & 3/4 inches. Hope this helps.
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
<mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:26 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Track width
Guys I need yer help.
I have a guy who wants to buy my plane and trailer it away.
Can someone tell me...
1) The width to the outside of the main wheels
2) The width of the center spar...He may want to use an enclosed
trailer.
Thanks
Frank
601HDS 400 hours
Message 28
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| Subject: | Bolt Torque Specs |
I usually go with the lower end of the range...50 - 70 In.Lb. Use 50
In.
Lb. on the first use... if the nut is removed and used again then I'll
use
60"Lb. The second time it's removed may as well replace it if it is in
an
area of any stress.
One other thing I always turn/torque the nut.... never the bolt.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Bryant
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Thanks Frank,
It looks like I'm gonna agree with you after all... I just got a
response
back from ZAC about the torque of these bolts and here's what they said:
"For proper bolt selection and installation, please refer to the FAA
publication, Acceptable Methods Techniques, and Practices: AIRCRAFT
INSPECTION AND REPAIR AC 43.13-1B"
We all know what that says, 50-70 inch pounds... Its a crying shame
that a
go-kart manufacturer can tell you specifically to torque certain bolts,
used
in certain applications, to an exact spec, and aircraft manufacturers
can't... (I guess they're too busy keeping their rivets exactly 8mm from
the
edge) Even the auto makers do this... They'll tell you specifically
how
many foot/pounds or inch/pounds to tighten certain bolts, not some broad
range of 50-70 inch pounds...
I guess I'll just tighten em' as tight as they'll go, then go about 1/4
turn
more... that should do it..
Thanks,
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank <mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com> George (Corvallis)
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Actually the real limit is when you strip the threads! You cannot cause
a
bolt to fail in service due to over torquing. They will break (if
subjected
to vibrational tension changes that cuse fatigue) if you UNDER torque
them.
Bottom line (and I can't wait to get flamed on this...:)...) the listed
torques specs really are on the very bottom limit for comfort and I
assume
are primarilly for fasteners in shear rather than tensile applications.
You would never find a cylinder head or tensile faster with so little
torque, but they have been shown to work in practice . Mine are all a
little
tighter than this though.
Frank
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of norman
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
Hello Randy,
According to CZAW the recommended torque for the AN4 bolts are 50 to 70
in.
lb. (5.6 to 7.9 Nm) the limit being 11.3 Nm.
Hope this helps.
Norman
601 XL G-DONT 40 hrs U.K.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith info Thanks |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: calkath@infostations.com
> Larry: Thanks for the Info A gentleman by the name of George wrote me he
measured his @ 23 & 7/8" this puts me in the hunt I built this trailor
and create useing 22" I allowed 4" for supension play so I think I'm
set. Thanks again Cal
-> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
>
> Cal,
> 22-inches is a fairly close call. I believe the clearance would be an
> inch shorter, but depends on
> the engine, weights specific, less radiator shown. See link,
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/Zenith-on-the-roadh.jpg
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> calkath@infostations.com wrote:
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: calkath@infostations.com
>>
>>Hello; I'm new to this today I bought a Zenith HD a week or so ago I have
>>not had it delivered yet this is where I have a question. I'm building a
>>trailor and a crate to put the wings in. I would like to know what the
>>distance is from the ground to the belly of the aircraft between the main
>>gear. I have buddy that flys an XL and those measurements ar 22 inches. I
>>was told this week end that the HD sits a tad lower. Can anyone help on
>>this? The trailor and crate are due to head east on the 20th of this
>>month. Thanks Cal
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Bolt Torque Specs |
Randy not to dampen your expectations but =93you are=94 the
manufacturer,
not the kit provider. It is your responsibility to ensure compliance to
FAA regulations. Zenith sells and supports kits that will someday fly.
If you want an exact torque you could try AMD which manufacturers
Zodiacs for the LSA market, but I doubt they will respond. ZAC=92s
response was correct and expected. It is up to you as to what torque you
are comfortable with.
cdngoose
HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK
"http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK
"http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
Thanks Frank,
It looks like I'm gonna agree with you after all... I just got a
response back from ZAC about the torque of these bolts and here's what
they said:
"For proper bolt selection and installation, please refer to the FAA
publication, Acceptable Methods Techniques, and Practices: AIRCRAFT
INSPECTION AND REPAIR AC 43.13-1B"
We all know what that says, 50-70 inch pounds... Its a crying shame
that a go-kart manufacturer can tell you specifically to torque certain
bolts, used in certain applications, to an exact spec, and aircraft
manufacturers can't... (I guess they're too busy keeping their rivets
exactly 8mm from the edge) Even the auto makers do this... They'll
tell you specifically how many foot/pounds or inch/pounds to tighten
certain bolts, not some broad range of 50-70 inch pounds...
I guess I'll just tighten em' as tight as they'll go, then go about 1/4
turn more... that should do it..
Thanks,
Randy
--
--
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum pricing |
All-
Wish I would have bought copper futures. Called to get pricing on
1/2" tubing and they said "You can't afford it ($2.20/ft). Can you do
what you need to do with black pipe? 12/2 Romex going for up to $1.29/ft
around here. And they say there's no inflation! Hope this is just a
price spike, and not like gas prices- never to go down again.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom and Bren Henderson
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:09 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Aluminum pricing
John, you'd better pick up your material as quickly as possible,
as ingot prices tripled in the last 13 months.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: RE: CH601HD/HDS Main Gear |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Brandon-
There are times you can deviate from the plans, but you have to admit,
messing with the gear is about the worst choice of a place to experiment.
On the other hand, they don't call these "Experimental" aircraft for
nothing. I applaud you for your willingness to try a variation, but I think
you have to move the proving stage further upstream.
Right now, you're a coroner, examining the final result. If you would
have built a proof of concept scale model, you probably would have detected
the negative effects earlier, before a major rebuild became necessary. Pain
in the ass, additional time and expense, you bet. Less work and lots more
peace of mind down the line, you bet.
Good building.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Tucker" <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:10 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: RE: CH601HD/HDS Main Gear
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>
> Gents,
>
> I built spring gear mounts for my taildragger HDS
> from pictures supplied to me by another builder.
> After some ground testing, and jumping the plane up
> and down under weight, I found that the forward
> fuselage bottom skin is starting to concave. There is
> no way it would be able to handle a hard landing. I
> am currently rebuilding the mount situation, using the
> XL plans for guidance (which is what I should have
> done in the first place). Having been through the
> process, I am not sure that I would build a spring
> gear again. It would probably be a whole lot easier
> building mounts for a tri-gear, but it has been a pain
> for the taildragger. I am getting to the point where
> I am regretting deviation from the plans. Those of
> you who are thinking of this mod, give it some good
> thought. I think I jumped in a little too hastily.
> ADHD is a bitch!
>
> -Please, no "I told you so's." I can see some
> of you chomping at the bit as you read this!
>
> R/
>
> Brandon
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601 Track width |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jlatimer1@cox.net>
Frank,
The center spar is 2200 mm wide. If you leave the splice plates on the spar you
will have to another 126 mm.
Jerry Latimer
601 HDS 912S
---- "Hinde wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Unfortunatly the HDS is not like the XL...The wheels are not the widest
> part, the center wing section is wider than the wheels.
>
> Thanks all the same.
>
> Frank
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron trim (or not) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" <N601RT@comcast.net>
Rich,
I used an RV-6 aileron trim kit (AIL-T6 from http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1150222747-272-15&browse=airframe&product=ail-tx) in N601RT.
In the RV-6, the control handle mounts between the pilots. The control handle is
welded to a tube with similar flat extension welded to the other end of the
tube and extending the opposite direction. The second flat extension is the bottom
of the control part. The tube mounts in a hole in a delrin (or similar plastic)
piece with a slot that allows tightening the with a bolt. (Similar to the
tension adjuster for the Zenair throttle.) Springs go from the end of the bottom
extension to the lowest end of each control stick.
In N601RT, I mounted the control handle in the spar centrally under the left seat,
with the control handle pointing up. I ran a spring from the bottom flat to
the lowest end of the control stick and then ran another spring from the lowest
end of the control stick to a mounting bolt centrally located in the spar
under the right seat. Push the control handle left to bias a left roll, push it
right to bias a right roll. The RV6 springs are not strong enough in my installation
for the trim adjustment to have enough effect. Ill double the spring
tension at some point.
Two additional notes: 1) When getting in N601RT I have to be careful not to snag
my pant leg on the trim control handle. 2) I also bought a AIL-T34 for an RV-3
or RV-4 which mounts on the control stick, but could not figure out how to
make it work.
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped,
535hrs, 640 landings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40825#40825
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: CH-701 and Czech Amphib floats |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" <jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca>
No problem Max as it was a really interesting reading. It is beneficial to
all.
Jean-Paul Roy
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <max.johansson@nokia.com>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH-701 and Czech Amphib floats
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <max.johansson@nokia.com>
>
>
> Sorry listers, this was intended just for Walt but never mind...
> do not archieve
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]
> >Sent: 12 June, 2006 16:39
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH-701 and Czech Amphib floats
> >
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: <max.johansson@nokia.com>
> >
> >Walt
> >
> >Are there structural enhancements needed for a 701SP-kit ?
> >I have not implemented any myself...
> >
> >Have some experience with CZAW 1150 floats and yesterday a
> >C42 Ikarus was successfully mounted on CZAW 1200 floats here,
>
>
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Bolt Torque Specs |
50 to 70 is NOT "some broad range" in fact + or - 10 inch lbs Is a rather
standard torque tolerance. Certificated (calibrated) torque wrenches are
only good to 2 percent of the total range of the wrench so if you have a 0
to 150 in lbs wrench it's accurate to 3 inch lbs from what you set it to.
Sounds like a pretty tight specification to me, and I shoot for the mean
plus the drag of the nylon stop nut.
Dave 601-HD 912ULS
"For proper bolt selection and installation, please refer to the FAA
publication, Acceptable Methods Techniques, and Practices: AIRCRAFT
INSPECTION AND REPAIR AC 43.13-1B"
We all know what that says, 50-70 inch pounds... Its a crying shame that
a go-kart manufacturer can tell you specifically to torque certain bolts,
used in certain applications, to an exact spec, and aircraft manufacturers
can't... (I guess they're too busy keeping their rivets exactly 8mm from the
edge) Even the auto makers do this... They'll tell you specifically how
many foot/pounds or inch/pounds to tighten certain bolts, not some broad
range of 50-70 inch pounds...
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: RE: CH601HD/HDS Main Gear |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
By the way, I didn't come up with this idea on my own. A couple of
EAAers from Ohio by the name of Wright were the originators.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: CH601HD/HDS Main Gear
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
> Brandon-
> There are times you can deviate from the plans, but you have to admit,
> messing with the gear is about the worst choice of a place to experiment.
> On the other hand, they don't call these "Experimental" aircraft for
> nothing. I applaud you for your willingness to try a variation, but I
> think you have to move the proving stage further upstream.
> Right now, you're a coroner, examining the final result. If you would
> have built a proof of concept scale model, you probably would have
> detected the negative effects earlier, before a major rebuild became
> necessary. Pain in the ass, additional time and expense, you bet. Less
> work and lots more peace of mind down the line, you bet.
> Good building.
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Tucker" <btucke73@yahoo.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:10 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: RE: CH601HD/HDS Main Gear
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>>
>> Gents,
>>
>> I built spring gear mounts for my taildragger HDS
>> from pictures supplied to me by another builder.
>> After some ground testing, and jumping the plane up
>> and down under weight, I found that the forward
>> fuselage bottom skin is starting to concave. There is
>> no way it would be able to handle a hard landing. I
>> am currently rebuilding the mount situation, using the
>> XL plans for guidance (which is what I should have
>> done in the first place). Having been through the
>> process, I am not sure that I would build a spring
>> gear again. It would probably be a whole lot easier
>> building mounts for a tri-gear, but it has been a pain
>> for the taildragger. I am getting to the point where
>> I am regretting deviation from the plans. Those of
>> you who are thinking of this mod, give it some good
>> thought. I think I jumped in a little too hastily.
>> ADHD is a bitch!
>>
>> -Please, no "I told you so's." I can see some
>> of you chomping at the bit as you read this!
>>
>> R/
>>
>> Brandon
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum pricing |
Bill,
It is not a price spike. Copper continues to go up and the mine owners
(usually from outside the US) make more and more.
Do not archive.--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 701, Amado, AZ
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Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: RE: CH600 brake lines & Cont A65 prop |
I have a CH 600 that will be ready for the DAR withing 6-8 weeks. I have a
Cont. A65 on the airplane. Would like to move the empty CG forward just a
tiny bit. Right now, with two 200 +/- people and low fuel (4 gallons or so),
the CG is at or behind the aft CG. I figure that a metal prop would do the
trick. I have a wooden prop now. Battery is already as far forward as I can
get it. Nothing else that I add will make much difference. For example,
small panel mounted radio will hardly move the empty CG. Anyone know
someone with a metal prop for a Cont. A-65?
Brake lines are done in plastic. I really do not like the plastic showing
outside the wheel pants. Thinking of making the last foot or two out of
metal tubing. Any ideas? Successful applications would be nice.
Thanks for your help.
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600, Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
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Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Riviting the elevator hinge ? |
I am ready to start riviting the elevator together. Is it OK to rivet the
hinge to both the elevator and HS at this time? The plans don't specify. Thanks,
Jeff Hudson.
Message 41
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| Subject: | Bolt Torque Specs |
I only use the drag of the fibre lock nut (AKA friction torque) when it is
specified. Wearing of the fibres in the locknuts is the main reason I dump
them after they have been tightened three times. In the overall scheme of
things they are cheap enough to use relatively new.
As for the torque wrench I tend to check mine out with a known weight every
couple of months. Right now for 200"Lb. I set for 187"LB. checking it is
easy as suspending a known weight on the handle at a specific distance from
the centre of the stud and then adjusting the wrench to just click at that
torque.
e.g. 16.6Lb. suspended at 12" from the centre of the stud = 200"Lb. When
calibrated this way the torque wrench should be less than 1% out. you can
also put the same weight at 6" top check the calibration of 100"Lb.
In Canada torque wrenches used on certified A/C have to have a certificate
of calibration in effect before the wrench is used.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Bolt Torque Specs
50 to 70 is NOT "some broad range" in fact + or - 10 inch lbs Is a rather
standard torque tolerance. Certificated (calibrated) torque wrenches are
only good to 2 percent of the total range of the wrench so if you have a 0
to 150 in lbs wrench it's accurate to 3 inch lbs from what you set it to.
Sounds like a pretty tight specification to me, and I shoot for the mean
plus the drag of the nylon stop nut.
Dave 601-HD 912ULS
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum pricing |
For the Record: It's not just offshore outfits jacking up prices. Most
of the aluminum used in the US is of domestic origin, and it's experiencing the
same escalating prices. The problem isn't China, or any other nation for that
matter, raising prices. The problem, my friends, is that suppliers have learned
the one thing we'll wish they hadn't. No matter how much the price increases,
we'll still jump on the net and place that order.
Another devastating factor in the metals market is the fact that small mills
(those large enough to affect pricing) have been bought out by Alcoa and the
other big three. Time to bend over and grit your teeth builders...
Steve Hulland <marinegunner@gmail.com> wrote: Bill,
It is not a price spike. Copper continues to go up and the mine owners (usually
from outside the US) make more and more.
Do not archive.--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 701, Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior
to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free
email and attachments.
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|
| Subject: | Re: Bolt Torque Specs |
| From: | "normskiroo@ukonl" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk> |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "normskiroo@ukonl" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
Randy,
A word of caution here, I have this morning checked my CZAW drawings and they specify
the bolts that attach the wings on my XL are AN5 15A not AN4 15A.
The torque for these bolts according to the data CZAW gave me is -
100 to 140 in. lb. recommended 11.3 to 15.8 Nm with a limit of 25.4 Nm.
I shall, next time a am down at the aircraft use a vernier gauge to confirm the
size.
During a wings off/back on operation some time ago I managed to strip the threads
of one of the bolts /nuts by over tightening and I was only using a ratchet
socket handle six inches long!
Needless to say the drilling of the bolt head took a while to get the whole thing
out!
Regards,
Norman 601 XL G-DONT 40 hours, UK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40885#40885
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | Re: XL spring gearXL spring gear |
| From: | "normskiroo@ukonl" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk> |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "normskiroo@ukonl" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
Cy,
Sorry for the delay in answering your question , I have had trouble logging on
to the site.
If a major repair were to be carried out you would involve your inspector over
here and go along with his recommendations.
If the owner is competant he can carry out the repair himself with the inspector
examining the work and signing it off.
Any thing really involved it would prpbably mean involving the PFA/manufacture
to lay down a repair proceedure.
Hope this helps.
I have just heard from the PFA that I can carry out my own test flying from now
on when I wish to renew my annual permit, I need ten hours on type (or similar)
and 100 hrs P! total.
Regards,
Norman 601 XL G-DONT, 40 hrs UK
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40886#40886
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