---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/24/06: 37 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:37 AM - Re: Rivets: Update on where to buy (Tom and Bren Henderson) 2. 04:28 AM - Re: . Fuel gauge issue.. (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 04:30 AM - Re: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank (Edward Moody II) 4. 04:47 AM - Re: Top skin material substitution (Edward Moody II) 5. 05:09 AM - Re: . Fuel gauge issue.. () 6. 05:30 AM - Re: Cheap metal bending brake that works (Clyde Barcus) 7. 05:52 AM - Re: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" (Big Gee) 8. 05:58 AM - Re: EGT Question (Noel Loveys) 9. 06:31 AM - Re: Rivets: Update on where to buy (Mike Fothergill) 10. 06:31 AM - Re: Deep trouble!! (N5SL) 11. 06:34 AM - Re: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" (Randy Bryant) 12. 06:45 AM - Re: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" (Dave Johnson) 13. 07:16 AM - Re: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" (B Johnson) 14. 07:24 AM - Re: Firewall (LarryMcFarland) 15. 07:39 AM - Re: Deep trouble!! (Dave and Jan Clay) 16. 07:39 AM - Re: Deep trouble!! (Bill Naumuk) 17. 07:39 AM - Re: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" (Edward Moody II) 18. 07:58 AM - Almost half way there (Bill Naumuk) 19. 09:58 AM - Re: Deep trouble!! (Dave Ruddiman) 20. 11:27 AM - Re: Deep trouble!! (Flydog1966@aol.com) 21. 11:36 AM - Re: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount (LarryMcFarland) 22. 12:27 PM - Mid-Atlantic Light Sport Aircraft Show - Sept 16-17 (Jim Pellien) 23. 01:03 PM - Re: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount (Robert Schoenberger) 24. 01:56 PM - Half way there (Bill Naumuk) 25. 02:32 PM - Re: Top skin material substitution (LarryMcFarland) 26. 03:28 PM - Re: On the roll (Jaybannist@cs.com) 27. 03:49 PM - Re: . Fuel gauge issue.. (george may) 28. 04:25 PM - Re: . Fuel gauge issue.. (Paul Mulwitz) 29. 04:56 PM - Oshkosh (Mike Sinclair) 30. 05:12 PM - Re: Deep trouble!! (BobTezyk) 31. 05:35 PM - Re: Oshkosh (Dave) 32. 06:01 PM - Re: On the roll (Bill Naumuk) 33. 08:07 PM - Re: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 34. 08:07 PM - Re: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount (Don Walker) 35. 08:21 PM - 701 elevator trim question (Brian kissinger) 36. 09:38 PM - Stratus engine mount (George Swinford) 37. 10:24 PM - Re: Oshkosh (RURUNY@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:38 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivets: Update on where to buy You're a life saver! :) I've been looking for an alternative source to Zenith for months now, with no luck. Thanks! norriedh wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norriedh" There have been posts on this site as well as the Zenith and CH701 Matronics sites about where to buy additional A4 and A5 rivets. These note that the English-made rivets which are the ones traditionally recommended as being of best quality were available from Avdel Division of Textron Canada Ltd, Ph 1-800-268-9947 or (416) 679-0622. These English-made rivets are no longer available from this source, in fact, these rivets are not made in England any more and in any case are now not sold anywhere in North America. However, Textron, above, still sell the A4 and A5 rivets to the same strength specifications but they are made in Textron's own factory in China. I talked to one of their technical people and was assured that the factory does all the necessary testing to ensure the rivets are up to the spec (Textron's website gives the strength and other data). Even Zenith source their rivets from Textron above and no longer even do their own tests on each batch as they once did. The part numbers and prices are A4 01604-00412 49.99 CDN per thousand A5 01604-00514 64.45 CDN per thousand Textron will take orders online and accept credit card. These rivets are also available from resellers including Zenith and others. Ordering direct from Textron is usually cheaper. The Textron tech said that they have done tests on holes in overlapping sheets where the holes did not line up. In general, the rivets wont line up the holes --- apparently the side forces generated are not too significant -- but he stressed that all the offset holes will get filled by rivet material (Unless the holes are way too much out of line). This agrees with my own testing -- I made overlapping coupons of 6061 sheet -- sometimes two sheets other times three - with sheet thicknesses varying from .016 to .040 inch - -- sectioned the riveted coupons -- and found the A5 rivets would completely fill holes offset up to .020 and sometimes even more - and the A4 a bit less. Douglas N Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=42736#42736 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:09 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: . Fuel gauge issue.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I don't think the sender is smart enough to act this way. The gauge seems like a better guess. It is relatively easy to test the sender and gauge separately. If you disconnect the wires at the gauge (a much easier trick than disconnecting them at the sender) and look at the resistance between the sender and ground you should see instantaneous results that don't change with time. The sender, after all is only a variable resistor with a value in the order of 100 ohms. If you don't already have a multimeter you can get a cheep one at Radio Shack that will do fine for this level of work. It is relatively easy to replace the gauge. If there is a loose wire in the cockpit or engine compartment that is also relatively easy to fix. The last thing you want is to open the wing to get to the sender or fuel tank ground wire. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 11:29 PM 6/23/2006, you wrote: >For all you guys with flying Zenith stuff and any other ones that >use the VDO fuel gauges and senders. My 801 has 120+ hours on her >and a quirk has reared it ugly head. On initial fireup the gauges >read correctly, after about 10 minutes the right one peggs to full >fuel. if I turn off the master switch and wait for a few seconds and >power up the panel again it does the same thing, 10 mintes and the >gauge heads towards full. I am guessing it's the sender unit... Any >guesses out their??? > > >Ben Haas >N801BH >www.haaspowerair.com > >. - ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:28 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" I don't have the photo you asked for but the way to get a countersunk head on both ends of a rivet is this. Both sides of the rivet hole ARE countersunk. You have to select the right length rivet by trial and error but once you get that right, it isn't difficult. You need a pnuematic rivet gun and a backrivetting plate. You set the rivet in the hole and secure it there with rivetting tape. Then turn the work over and set the taped head down on the backrivetting plate. Use a flush rivet driver attachment on the rivet gun to hammer the formed head into the countersink space. If you don't have these tools, find a guy who has built an RV6, 7, or 8 and ask him about the trailing edge rivets in his rudder. They are done exactly this way. Hope that helps, Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > > Can someone send me a picture of one of the aileron bellcranks that will > explain the riveted spacer assembly on 6W10-1&2. The side view drawing of > the spacer and bellcrank showing countersunk rivets does not make sense to > me. Looks like both the shop-head and factory-head are both countersunk on > each rivet. Is this correct? How does one do this? > > Kevin Bonds ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:17 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Top skin material substitution I'm fairly sure that the wing skins in my kit are .025 6061T-6 bare. I believe there's no problem with that. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom and Bren Henderson To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 6:35 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Top skin material substitution I hate .016 aluminum. It dimples too easily, it's damned noisy, and our CNC punches like to eat it for lunch. That being said, has anyone replaced the Middle or Rear top skins (6-B-21-6 and 7 on the XL) with .025 aluminum? I understand the weight issue, especially that far from the CG, but did anyone encounter any other issues that might not be so readily apparent? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:20 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: . Fuel gauge issue.. Ben If the wire from the sender unit is broken the fuel guage will peg on the full side. This happens because the sender unit has variable resistance from zero ohms empty to about 180 ohms when full (maybe 165 ...don't have the data sheet handy). Anyway a broken sender wire is infinite ohms so you will read a pegged guage on the full side. The guage is likely OK. Check the wire first. Gary Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: n801bh@netzero.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:29 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: . Fuel gauge issue.. For all you guys with flying Zenith stuff and any other ones that use the VDO fuel gauges and senders. My 801 has 120+ hours on her and a quirk has reared it ugly head. On initial fireup the gauges read correctly, after about 10 minutes the right one peggs to full fuel. if I turn off the master switch and wait for a few seconds and power up the panel again it does the same thing, 10 mintes and the gauge heads towards full. I am guessing it's the sender unit... Any guesses out their??? Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:29 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cheap metal bending brake that works --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" Dave, Nice job on the brake! Please email me the file. Thanks Clyde Barcus 601XL, Corvair Powered Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 11:44 AM > If anyone needs an inexpensive bending brake that actually works go to the > CH601XL group on yahoo. I've posted plans for an all metal 8 foot brake > that > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:36 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" all below is true, but, does it have to be that complicated? Are you saying you can't "set" a rivet with a hammer, "drift pin", "anvil" ??? How did the "old timers" do it prior to the aviailabiliy of air driven tools ?? Fritz Edward Moody II wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" I don't have the photo you asked for but the way to get a countersunk head on both ends of a rivet is this. Both sides of the rivet hole ARE countersunk. You have to select the right length rivet by trial and error but once you get that right, it isn't difficult. You need a pnuematic rivet gun and a backrivetting plate. You set the rivet in the hole and secure it there with rivetting tape. Then turn the work over and set the taped head down on the backrivetting plate. Use a flush rivet driver attachment on the rivet gun to hammer the formed head into the countersink space. If you don't have these tools, find a guy who has built an RV6, 7, or 8 and ask him about the trailing edge rivets in his rudder. They are done exactly this way. Hope that helps, Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > > Can someone send me a picture of one of the aileron bellcranks that will > explain the riveted spacer assembly on 6W10-1&2. The side view drawing of > the spacer and bellcrank showing countersunk rivets does not make sense to > me. Looks like both the shop-head and factory-head are both countersunk on > each rivet. Is this correct? How does one do this? > > Kevin Bonds --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:12 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EGT Question To me it all depends on why. If you are installing an engine monitor or FADEC on your Corvair then the only way to go is with the six probes. Mounting them sounds like it can be fun. If you're only planning on gauges you're going to need a big panel to mount at least three double gauges. Why bother? You won't have time to read them any way. Sight differences in the gauges will worry you half to death when you should be flying the plane So if it's going to be gauges I would locate the hottest cylinder with a laser thermometer and use that cylinder for CHT and run a dual EGT, one from each manifold. I'll bet that if you check with the guys on the list if there is one cylinder, in the back which will usually run hotter than the others. Noel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lindstrom Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 6:53 PM Hi, Larry. I, too, wanted to use 6 egt probes on the Corvair. But upon looking at the exhaust manifold, there jus ain't enough room to do it properly with the quick radius bend. So I'm settling for one on each side. So I'll have dual CHT, and dual EGT. Should be enough. Best, Rick Lindstrom LHusky@aol.com wrote: I need a general concenses on EGT probes. I am putting a Corvair in my XL and I am wondering if I should go with 6 EGT probes or just one on each manifold? I belive 6 would give me better detection of a problem in a specific cylinder, but one probe in the right place would also detect a problem on one side of the engine. What do you think? Larry Husky 601XL Building fuse!! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:55 AM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivets: Update on where to buy --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill I had no trouble in picking up 500 of each of the rivet sizes last month at Textron. Mike UHS Spinners norriedh wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norriedh" > > There have been posts on this site as well as the Zenith and CH701 > Matronics sites about where to buy additional A4 and A5 rivets. > These note that the English-made rivets which are the ones > traditionally recommended as being of best quality were available > from Avdel Division of Textron Canada Ltd, Ph 1-800-268-9947 or (416) > 679-0622. These English-made rivets are no longer available from > this source, in fact, these rivets are not made in England any more and in any case are now not sold anywhere in North America. > > However, Textron, above, still sell the A4 and A5 rivets to the same > strength specifications but they are made in Textron's own factory > in China. I talked to one of their technical people and was assured > that the factory does all the necessary testing to ensure the rivets > are up to the spec (Textron's website gives the strength and other > data). Even Zenith source their rivets from Textron above and no > longer even do their own tests on each batch as they once did. > > The part numbers and prices are > > A4 01604-00412 49.99 CDN per thousand > A5 01604-00514 64.45 CDN per thousand > > Textron will take orders online and accept credit card. > > These rivets are also available from resellers including Zenith and > others. Ordering direct from Textron is usually cheaper. > > The Textron tech said that they have done tests on holes in > overlapping sheets where the holes did not line up. In general, the > rivets wont line up the holes --- apparently the side forces > generated are not too significant -- but he stressed that all the > offset holes will get filled by rivet material (Unless the holes are > way too much out of line). This agrees with my own testing -- I made > overlapping coupons of 6061 sheet -- sometimes two sheets other > times three - with sheet thicknesses varying from .016 to .040 inch - > -- sectioned the riveted coupons -- and found the A5 rivets would > completely fill holes offset up to .020 and sometimes even more - > and the A4 a bit less. > > Douglas N > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=42736#42736 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:55 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Deep trouble!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Jerome: I too have a friend, Boudreaux who had an old mule. A few years ago he married a young bride. As he was leaving the church in his buggy still with rice in his hair, young bride by his side, the mule started acting up. Boudreaux yells "Mule, that's ONE!" The mule straightened up and trotted along down the road. A few minutes later the mule started misbehaving and Boo shouts "Mule, that's TWO!" The mule then dutifully trotted pulling the cart. Sure enough, a short time later the mule is back to his old tricks. Boo jumps up and shouts "Mule, that's THREE!" then pulls out his shot gun and kills the mule dead right there. Seeing this, his young bride starts histerically screaming "why did you do that?" and to that Boo yells "Wife, that's One!" Scott Laughlin Friend of Boo Do Not Archive --- jsimons2 wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jsimons2" > > > Hi all, > I believe that I am in deep sh**. Today I > ordered my plans __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:25 AM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" I don't have pictures of my aileron bellcrank right now to post, but what I did was to counter sink both sides/blocks/spacers, put the rivet through the holes, lay the flat head of the rivet on an anvil, and smash the other end with a small ball peen hammer... Looks great... I'm happy with the way it turned out... Randy XL Wings - Plans Only http://www.n344rb.com Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Big Gee To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" all below is true, but, does it have to be that complicated? Are you saying you can't "set" a rivet with a hammer, "drift pin", "anvil" ??? How did the "old timers" do it prior to the aviailabiliy of air driven tools ?? Fritz Edward Moody II wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" I don't have the photo you asked for but the way to get a countersunk head on both ends of a rivet is this. Both sides of the rivet hole ARE countersunk. You have to select the right length rivet by trial and error but once you get that right, it isn't difficult. You need a pnuematic rivet gun and a backrivetting plate. You set the rivet in the hole and secure it there with rivetting tape. Then turn the work over and set the taped head down on the backrivetting plate. Use a flush rivet driver attachment on the rivet gun to hammer the formed head into the countersink space. If you don't have these tools, find a guy who has built an RV6, 7, or 8 and ask him about the trailing edge rivets in his rudder. They are done exactly this way. Hope that helps, Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > > Can someone send me a picture of one of the aileron bellcranks that will > explain the riveted spacer assembly on 6W10-1&2. The side view drawing of > the spacer and bellcrank showing countersunk rivets does not make sense to > me. Looks like both the shop-head and factory-head are both countersunk on > each rivet. Is this correct? How does one do this? > > Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:39 AM PST US From: "Dave Johnson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" I had the same problem - also the solid rivets on the brake pedals. I just squeezed the rivets in a bench vice with a couple of sheets of scrap ali. to avoid marking the surfaces. Dave Johnson do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Big Gee To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:48 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" all below is true, but, does it have to be that complicated? Are you saying you can't "set" a rivet with a hammer, "drift pin", "anvil" ??? How did the "old timers" do it prior to the aviailabiliy of air driven tools ?? Fritz Edward Moody II wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" I don't have the photo you asked for but the way to get a countersunk head on both ends of a rivet is this. Both sides of the rivet hole ARE countersunk. You have to select the right length rivet by trial and error but once you get that right, it isn't difficult. You need a pnuematic rivet gun and a backrivetting plate. You set the rivet in the hole and secure it there with rivetting tape. Then turn the work over and set the taped head down on the backrivetting plate. Use a flush rivet driver attachment on the rivet gun to hammer the formed head into the countersink space. If you don't have these tools, find a guy who has built an RV6, 7, or 8 and ask him about the trailing edge rivets in his rudder. They are done exactly this way. Hope that helps, Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > > Can someone send me a picture of one of the aileron bellcranks that will > explain the riveted spacer assembly on 6W10-1&2. The side view drawing of > the spacer and bellcrank showing countersunk rivets does not make sense to > me. Looks like both the shop-head and factory-head are both countersunk on > each rivet. Is this correct? How does one do this? > > Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:14 AM PST US From: "B Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" You CAN set solid rivets with a hammer, I set hundred of them on the wing spar of my Sonex. Polish the head of a bolt & use that between the hammer and the rivet. With very little practice your buckn rivets Bruce ________________________________________ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Johnson Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:41 AM I had the same problem - also the solid rivets on the brake pedals. I just squeezed the rivets in a bench vice with a couple of sheets of scrap ali. to avoid marking the surfaces. Dave Johnson do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:48 PM all below is true, but, does it have to be that complicated? Are you saying you can't "set" a rivet with a hammer,"driftpin","anvil"??? How did the "old timers" do it prior to the aviailabiliy of air driven tools ?? Fritz Edward Moody II wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" I don't have the photo you asked for but the way to get a countersunk head on both ends of a rivet is this. Both sides of the rivet hole ARE countersunk. You have to select the right length rivet by trial and error but once you get that right, it isn't difficult. You need a pnuematic rivet gun and a backrivetting plate. You set the rivet in the hole and secure it there with rivetting tape. Then turn the work over and set the taped head down on the backrivetting plate. Use a flush rivet driver attachment on the rivet gun to hammer the formed head into the countersink space. If you don't have these tools, find a guy who has built an RV6, 7, or 8 and ask him about the trailing edge rivets in his rudder. They are done exactly this way. Hope that helps, Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > > Can someone send me a picture of one of the aileron bellcranks that will > explain the riveted spacer assembly on 6W10-1&2. The side view drawing of > the spacer and bellcrank showing countersunk rivets does not make sense to > me. Looks like both the shop-head and factory-head are both countersunk on > each rivet. Is this correct? How does one do this? > > Kevin ________________________________________ How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. -- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:31 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Firewall --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Kevin, I put a .015 stainless steel firewall in because the material recommended in the plans is too weak to be called structural and for mounting pumps, etc, you need better surface. The stainless is really tough, but I'm glad I did it. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > >Regarding plans building an XL, I am looking ahead trying to make some decisions. Hope you guys and gals can help me out in hte next few emails (broken up to make them more searchable). (1) Back many months ago I seem to remember some talk about using thicker material for the firewall. For those of you flying, has the 18 gauge steel for the firewall seemed sufficient? Noticed in the archives one builder went with stainless steel. Is this a good idea? Stiffer? Better heat resistance in a fire? > >Kevin Bonds >http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:49 AM PST US From: "Dave and Jan Clay" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Deep trouble!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave and Jan Clay" Hey Jerome, I just reminded my sweet wife of all those great trips we could take in our own airplane and she was sold. In fact, if she thinks I'm not spending enough time building she gets on my case. Dave _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:49 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Deep trouble!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Just hope you can finish the plane before you can't qualify for a driver's license. Bill ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 9:25 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jsimons2" > > Hi all, > I believe that I am in deep sh**. Today I ordered my plans for a Zodiac > CH 601 HDS without telling my wife that I was even near ordering plans. > How much longer do I have to live? (Read as "How long does it take for the > plans to arrive?") How long do I have to get the dog house in order and > liveable? HELLLLLLLLLP!!! > > Jerome > Almost a "scrap" builder (if I live) > Just waiting on plans now. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=42704#42704 > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:59 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" Nothing of the sort. It can definitely be done with a hammer and anvil. It's just a bit easier to control the result if you have the tools mentioned and/or access to an RV guy who's done it a zillion times already. There are a lot of RVs out there so I figured the odds were in favor of you having some help from that direction. I mean honestly, you can't swing a dead cat in this area without hitting one of them. As for old timers? I honestly don't know. I came along too late to experience that and it's an area of history I haven't pondered. What I do know is that scratch builders are some ingenious mothers and if one of them says it works, it probably does. Ed Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Big Gee To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: scratchbuilt aileron bellcrank/ "air riveter" all below is true, but, does it have to be that complicated? Are you saying you can't "set" a rivet with a hammer, "drift pin", "anvil" ??? How did the "old timers" do it prior to the aviailabiliy of air driven tools ?? Fritz ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:31 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Almost half way there All- Thanks for your responses, almost half-way to 25. Keep it coming! There IS a common thread (At least so far), so I think there's a good chance that SA will pick up the article. This is YOUR story, people! How about some international input? Contact me off-list for the questionnaire if you haven't seen it yet. I'm actually workiing on my project for the first time in nearly a month. My center wing is jigged up and level for the addition of some pieces, and right in front of my table saw. Figured I'd finish that work off before moving the table saw upstairs so I could install the pegboard/particle board in the garanger. Bill do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:11 AM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Deep trouble!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" Hey Dave, Does your wife have a sister like her that I could trade my wife for? Dave in Salem ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:36 AM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave and Jan Clay" > > > Hey Jerome, > > I just reminded my sweet wife of all those great trips we could take in > our own airplane and she was sold. In fact, if she thinks I'm not spending > enough time building she gets on my case. > > Dave > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:13 AM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Deep trouble!! Make the dog house big enough for a 12 foot work bench. do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:45 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Hi George, I had something similar, not quite off half a hole diameter, same place, but I made it closely to Zenith provided drawings. Could be that the Stratus mounts have us out of position by a small amount? It still is not the fit I'd like either, but it just does and one day I'll pull the engine and reweld the hole and drill it down where it should be. Or remake the Stratus mount to get the adjustment. I've already made a new right upper Stratus mount and it fits fine. Larry McFarland George Swinford wrote: > Yesterday I tried to hang the Stratus EA81 on my Zodiac 601. Three of > the four mount bolts went in smoothly, but the lower left hand mount > bolt misses the hole in the mount by almost the whole diameter of the > bolt. No way can I shift things around or deflect the legs of the > mount to get the bolt in. Another local builder had the same problem, > but was able to force a fit. Has anyone else on the list had this > problem? > > I bought my firewall-forward kit, including the engine mount, in > 2000. The mount mated up with the firewall, no sweat. In response to > other builder's reports of cracking lugs on the firewall end of the > mount, I had gussets added to those lugs. Since three of the engine > mounts line up, I doubt that welding induced enough distortion to > create my current problem. I did modify the mount, so I'm reluctant > to throw the blame on the factory, although I suspect that's where it > belongs. > > Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions. > > George > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:30 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: Zenith-List: Mid-Atlantic Light Sport Aircraft Show - Sept 16-17 Hello, You should definitely plan to go to the Mid-Atlantic Light Sport Aircraft Show on Sept 16-17 at the Sky Bryce Airport in Basye, VA. This show is completely focused on and dedicated to the new Light Sport Aircraft, nothing else. The show is co-sponsored by the Bryce Mountain Resort and Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes. All proceeds from the show go towards the maintenance of the Sky Bryce Airport. We will be holding this show twice per year show, once in the Fall and once in the Spring. Make sure you are present at the 1st show of its kind in the Mid-Atlantic Region that is solely devoted to light sport aircraft. All the details of the show are located at: http://www.maspl.com/FLY-IN.htm Information on how to sign up for the show and reserve your tiedowns and display areas are at: http://www.maspl.com/FLY-IN%20COMMERCIAL%20OPPORTUNITIES.htm The following are pictures of all 34 SLSA's that have been certified and listed at the EAA.org webpage. EXHIBITORS * Commercial Tie-Down for 2 Day Show (Blacktop): $200 * Commercial Tie-Down for 2 Day Show (Grass): $150 * 10' X 10' Display Space (No tables, chairs or electric available): $100 for 2 days Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes Sky Bryce Airport (VG18) Basye, VA www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:55 PM PST US From: "Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" I've never mounted an engine to an airframe, but I remember some correspondence on this list some 2 or so years ago where builders forced a fit and later cracks were discovered in the supporting frame due to the stressed condition. Just a thought to be concerned about. Robert Schoenberger 701 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:32 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > > Hi George, > I had something similar, not quite off half a hole diameter, same place, > but I made it closely to Zenith provided drawings. Could be that the > Stratus mounts have us out of position by a small amount? It still is not > the fit I'd like either, but it just does and one day I'll pull the engine > and reweld the hole and drill it down where it should be. > Or remake the Stratus mount to get the adjustment. I've already made a > new right upper Stratus mount and it fits fine. > > Larry McFarland > > George Swinford wrote: > >> Yesterday I tried to hang the Stratus EA81 on my Zodiac 601. Three of the >> four mount bolts went in smoothly, but the lower left hand mount bolt >> misses the hole in the mount by almost the whole diameter of the bolt. >> No way can I shift things around or deflect the legs of the mount to get >> the bolt in. Another local builder had the same problem, but was able to >> force a fit. Has anyone else on the list had this problem? >> I bought my firewall-forward kit, including the engine mount, in 2000. >> The mount mated up with the firewall, no sweat. In response to other >> builder's reports of cracking lugs on the firewall end of the mount, I >> had gussets added to those lugs. Since three of the engine mounts line >> up, I doubt that welding induced enough distortion to create my current >> problem. I did modify the mount, so I'm reluctant to throw the blame on >> the factory, although I suspect that's where it belongs. Thanks in >> advance for any helpful suggestions. George >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:43 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Half way there All- We're past the half-way point. Keep 'em coming. Looks like this may work- a definite pattern is showing up, which is what I (And I'm sure SA) were hoping for. Bill do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:38 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Top skin material substitution --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Tom, I've got a 601HDS that has generally replaced .016 with .020 on bottom skins, .025 on the wing skins and top skins. Exceptions are elevator, rudder and ailerons. Nothing so heavy as to upset my weight at all. The appearance improved with thicker skins, fit better, don't oil can as much and the plane looks more solid than the light aircraft it is. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Tom and Bren Henderson wrote: > I hate .016 aluminum. It dimples too easily, it's damned noisy, > and our CNC punches like to eat it for lunch. That being said, has > anyone replaced the Middle or Rear top skins (6-B-21-6 and 7 on the > XL) with .025 aluminum? I understand the weight issue, especially > that far from the CG, but did anyone encounter any other issues that > might not be so readily apparent? > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:17 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: On the roll Answers to questionnaire: SETTING THE STAGE 1. No 2. No 3. NA 4. About a month 5. Don't know 6. Don't know 7. No 8. I was made aware of it thru ZAC website & it looked useful right away. DAY TO DAY 1. About once a week 2. Specific, not social 3. ~10% 4. Technical CRUNCH TIME I have handled my screw-ups either with ZAC or with my EAA tech advisor. Some, I just figured out myself. I avoided a few by reviewing several of the builders' websites on ZAC's website. Only on one was I totally devastated. I didn't get over it until I had worked out a solution with my tech advisor, about a day. I actually came up withe the solution, but this was facilitated by the interaction and discussion. Problems attributable to ZAC are somewhat frustrating, but they always come through, so I don't get really upset. BOTTOM LINE 1. Yes 2. No 3. Yes Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:19 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: . Fuel gauge issue.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" I am guessing it's the sender unit... Any guesses out their??? Have you tried swapping the wiring to the senders---left to right right to left. If the problem follows the switch it's the sender, if not its probably the guage George May _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:53 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: . Fuel gauge issue.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz One unpleasant possibility comes to mind. It is a faulty ground between the sender and aircraft structure. This ground must be accomplished with two separate tricks. First the connection between the main plate of the sender must be connected to the gas tank by insuring electrical contact through one or more of the mounting screws. Second, the tank must be grounded to the aircraft frame with a wire. If these are not properly done then the sender circuit is not completed. Another way to do this is to weld a tab to the sender plate and run a ground wire from this to either the airframe or to the gauge. These are unpleasant possibilities because the wing skin must be opened to get access to the sender to correct them. Paul XL fuselage >I am guessing it's the sender unit... Any guesses out their??? > > >Have you tried swapping the wiring to the senders---left to right >right to left. If the problem follows the switch it's the >sender, if not its probably the guage > >George May > >_ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:50 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Zenith-List: Oshkosh --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair A question for those Zenith drivers that have flown in. Where do the 701's congregate? 1988 was the last year that I made it to Oshkosh. Only got to stay one day since the wife (thankfully has now been "ex" for quite some time) wasn't happy. Myself and another 701 driver from the Wichita area intend to be going that way this year. Have heard varying opinions as to where they ought to go. One even said the 701's should go to the ultralight area (and performance wise can put most ultralights to shame on short field, leaving or arriving) and others say homebuilt area. We intend to camp under the wings at this point, subject to a better situation. It's been long enough since I've been there and I've had little to no experience flying into this sort of congestion and would appreciate any suggestions.We've got a copy of the notam and new charts. Flight planning has begun. Is there a gathering of Zeniths? Yehaaaa! Mike Sinclair N701TD ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:56 PM PST US From: "BobTezyk" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Deep trouble!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "BobTezyk" If you are lucky, you will only have to endure a round of retaliatory spending. If you are not, she will buff your gonads with 60 grit sand paper one night this week. Bob :lol: -------- Regards, Bob Tezyk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=42849#42849 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:20 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Oshkosh --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" Get the Oshkosh Notam!!! And for camping under the wing they will put you in "Homebuilt Camping" The Notam will fill you in on the sign you need for the ground crews. My 601 will be in "Homebuilt Parking" (you can't camp there) Dave 601-HD 912ULS -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Sinclair Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:52 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair A question for those Zenith drivers that have flown in. Where do the 701's congregate? 1988 was the last year that I made it to Oshkosh. Only got to stay one day since the wife (thankfully has now been "ex" for quite some time) wasn't happy. Myself and another 701 driver from the Wichita area intend to be going that way this year. Have heard varying opinions as to where they ought to go. One even said the 701's should go to the ultralight area (and performance wise can put most ultralights to shame on short field, leaving or arriving) and others say homebuilt area. We intend to camp under the wings at this point, subject to a better situation. It's been long enough since I've been there and I've had little to no experience flying into this sort of congestion and would appreciate any suggestions.We've got a copy of the notam and new charts. Flight planning has begun. Is there a gathering of Zeniths? Yehaaaa! Mike Sinclair N701TD ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:09 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: On the roll Thank, Jay. Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: On the roll Answers to questionnaire: SETTING THE STAGE 1. No 2. No 3. NA 4. About a month 5. Don't know 6. Don't know 7. No 8. I was made aware of it thru ZAC website & it looked useful right away. DAY TO DAY 1. About once a week 2. Specific, not social 3. ~10% 4. Technical CRUNCH TIME I have handled my screw-ups either with ZAC or with my EAA tech advisor. Some, I just figured out myself. I avoided a few by reviewing several of the builders' websites on ZAC's website. Only on one was I totally devastated. I didn't get over it until I had worked out a solution with my tech advisor, about a day. I actually came up withe the solution, but this was facilitated by the interaction and discussion. Problems attributable to ZAC are somewhat frustrating, but they always come through, so I don't get really upset. BOTTOM LINE 1. Yes 2. No 3. Yes Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:20 PM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" My engine mount was way off too...But to the fireall not the engine. I would call Zac and ask 'em to sort it out. You paid a lot of money for that mount and it really has to be right. Frank -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Schoenberger Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 12:59 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" --> I've never mounted an engine to an airframe, but I remember some correspondence on this list some 2 or so years ago where builders forced a fit and later cracks were discovered in the supporting frame due to the stressed condition. Just a thought to be concerned about. Robert Schoenberger 701 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:32 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > > Hi George, > I had something similar, not quite off half a hole diameter, same place, > but I made it closely to Zenith provided drawings. Could be that the > Stratus mounts have us out of position by a small amount? It still is not > the fit I'd like either, but it just does and one day I'll pull the engine > and reweld the hole and drill it down where it should be. > Or remake the Stratus mount to get the adjustment. I've already made a > new right upper Stratus mount and it fits fine. > > Larry McFarland > > George Swinford wrote: > >> Yesterday I tried to hang the Stratus EA81 on my Zodiac 601. Three of the >> four mount bolts went in smoothly, but the lower left hand mount bolt >> misses the hole in the mount by almost the whole diameter of the bolt. >> No way can I shift things around or deflect the legs of the mount to get >> the bolt in. Another local builder had the same problem, but was able to >> force a fit. Has anyone else on the list had this problem? >> I bought my firewall-forward kit, including the engine mount, in 2000. >> The mount mated up with the firewall, no sweat. In response to other >> builder's reports of cracking lugs on the firewall end of the mount, I >> had gussets added to those lugs. Since three of the engine mounts line >> up, I doubt that welding induced enough distortion to create my current >> problem. I did modify the mount, so I'm reluctant to throw the blame on >> the factory, although I suspect that's where it belongs. Thanks in >> advance for any helpful suggestions. George >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:20 PM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount Mine, too, which I received in 1997. Just about 1/8th inch off. I enlarged a hole a bit and made it fit...390 hours ago. All seems okay. don walker ----- Original Message ----- From: LarryMcFarland To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601/ Stratus Engine Mount --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > Hi George, I had something similar, not quite off half a hole diameter, same place, but I made it closely to Zenith provided drawings. Could be that the Stratus mounts have us out of position by a small amount? It still is not the fit I'd like either, but it just does and one day I'll pull the engine and reweld the hole and drill it down where it should be. Or remake the Stratus mount to get the adjustment. I've already made a new right upper Stratus mount and it fits fine. Larry McFarland George Swinford wrote: > Yesterday I tried to hang the Stratus EA81 on my Zodiac 601. Three of > the four mount bolts went in smoothly, but the lower left hand mount > bolt misses the hole in the mount by almost the whole diameter of the > bolt. No way can I shift things around or deflect the legs of the > mount to get the bolt in. Another local builder had the same problem, > but was able to force a fit. Has anyone else on the list had this > problem? > > I bought my firewall-forward kit, including the engine mount, in > 2000. The mount mated up with the firewall, no sweat. In response to > other builder's reports of cracking lugs on the firewall end of the > mount, I had gussets added to those lugs. Since three of the engine > mounts line up, I doubt that welding induced enough distortion to > create my current problem. I did modify the mount, so I'm reluctant > to throw the blame on the factory, although I suspect that's where it > belongs. > > Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions. > > George > ========================= ========== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ========================= ========== ========================= ========== http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:48 PM PST US From: Brian kissinger Subject: Zenith-List: 701 elevator trim question Greetings all: New to the list...1st time posting. I just riveted shut my elevator tonight (Zenith 701)and started looking through the photo assemblies and drawings for the next steps. I don't see anywhere how to install the elevator trim system other than in drawing 7-ETO-1. When are we supposed to do this? Frustration sets in :) Thanks in advance for your tips. Cheers, Brian "Brain" Kissinger www.brainsflight.com --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1/min. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:54 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Stratus engine mount I'm getting some good responses to my question/complaint about the engine mount. Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Don, the misaligned hole in my mount is about 5/16 out, too much to correct by enlarging the hole. Frank, I agree that Zenith should make it right, but I don't expect they will, based on previous experience. I can get it to a certified aircraft welder who has built a steel tube airframe of his own, and so knows the problems. Near his shop there is a place which will bead blast it clean and ready to prime after welding. I can get it done and back on the airplane in a few days, and move on. I'm guessing that you won't have such problems with Van. George Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:06 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Oshkosh Dave, I camped under the wing at Oshkosh in 2002 and 2004 for 6 days each time. I was in the vintage acft area and was right by the ultralight field both times. The one thing nice about being there was that the demo 701 flew there all the time over our camping spot. The only 701 there though was the demo, all others were in the homebuilt parking or the homebuilt camping area. They were not really grouped together in the camping area but scattered about. They are grouped together by make in the homebuilt parking. I hope you get to stay longer this time, it is lots of fun staying for the week especially with a friend who is interested. I know how the wife gets at airshows for a few hours and would not last more than a day at Oshkosh. Have a great time! Brian Long Island