Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:59 AM - Rear Longerons on 601XL (Scott Thatcher)
2. 04:00 AM - Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls (Debo Cox)
3. 05:54 AM - Fuel pump puzzle (Michel Therrien)
4. 06:01 AM - Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder (Brian kissinger)
5. 06:24 AM - Re: Rear Longerons on 601XL (Jaybannist@cs.com)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder (Paul Mulwitz)
7. 07:26 AM - Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER--- (Randy Bryant)
8. 07:28 AM - RE : Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER--- (Carlos Sa)
9. 07:42 AM - Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER--- sorry (Randy Bryant)
10. 07:45 AM - Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls (Randy Bryant)
11. 08:05 AM - Slips/spins final (Bill Naumuk)
12. 08:13 AM - Re: Serial Number 6483 (Zodie Rocket)
13. 08:13 AM - Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER--- sorry (Bill Naumuk)
14. 09:40 AM - Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder (Gordon)
15. 09:58 AM - Re: Matt - Request from Ed Welander's widow (Robert Schoenberger)
16. 10:06 AM - Re: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder (Robert Schoenberger)
17. 10:28 AM - Re: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder (Robert Schoenberger)
18. 10:34 AM - 601HD cowl (George Swinford)
19. 10:49 AM - Re: Fuel system poser (JERICKSON03E@aol.com)
20. 12:05 PM - Fuel Sender...again... (Randy Bryant)
21. 01:49 PM - Re: Fuel Sender...again... (LarryMcFarland)
22. 01:58 PM - Slips (Mark Sherman)
23. 02:11 PM - Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls (LHusky@aol.com)
24. 02:11 PM - Re: 601HD cowl (LarryMcFarland)
25. 02:37 PM - Re: Mounting Horizontal Tail and Elevator on CH701 (Tommy Walker)
26. 02:38 PM - Re: Rear Wing Spar (Dave Ruddiman)
27. 02:38 PM - Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder (Gordon)
28. 03:02 PM - XL Gear Supports (Jaybannist@cs.com)
29. 03:14 PM - XL Gear Support (Jaybannist@cs.com)
30. 03:22 PM - Re: 601HD cowl (George Swinford)
31. 03:26 PM - Fuel System Poser - solved!/ really?? (Big Gee)
32. 03:52 PM - Re: Fuel Sender...again... (Randy Bryant)
33. 05:32 PM - Re: 601HD cowl (LarryMcFarland)
34. 06:00 PM - Re: Fuel System Poser - solved!/ really?? (fred sanford)
35. 06:06 PM - Re: Fuel Sender...again... (Bryan Martin)
36. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: Fuel System Poser - solved!/ really?? (Big Gee)
37. 06:59 PM - Re: Fuel Sender...again... (Randy Bryant)
38. 07:03 PM - Re: Slips (Tim Juhl)
39. 07:34 PM - Re: Ratchet Tiedowns (Melvin Francke)
40. 07:48 PM - mounting tail feathers (Zed Smith)
41. 08:55 PM - Re: Fuel system poser (NYTerminat@aol.com)
42. 10:30 PM - Re: Re: Fuel System Poser - solved!/ really?? (fred sanford)
43. 10:36 PM - Re: Sorry List..goofed again (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Rear Longerons on 601XL |
Thanks Jay for your confirmation of the edge distance of 6-7mm. I was
really wondering what the h... kind of mistake had I made??!! :-)
Answers that confirm that others have had similar problems really help a
builder not feel so alone and isolated.
And Paul, thanks for the dimension check you made. BTW, I did have the
longeron sandwiched between the bottom skin and the HT Frame. I
apparently just casually measured the end of the bottom skin at 92 mm
and then made the holes at 72mm center to center. Since it confirmed my
actual measurement of edge distance, I was satisfied :-) It appears
after actual measurement that the holes are really closer to your
measurements of 77mm (I got 76). However, after doing the math, the HT
Frame has a width of 104mm or so leaving a non-trig difference of
104-76=28mm or 14mm in from the inside edge of the longeron. With the
inside width of the longeron at 21, this leaves 7mm. However, I still
wind up with only 6mm when actually measuring the edge distance on the
longeron. I love math when it agrees with the facts but it's a real pain
when it doesn't!
I'll wait to hear what Nick has to say. He usually responds fairly
quickly and I'm sure those guys can't wait for another day of answering
questions! I may request that Nick send me some longerons that are 22x26
so that I can get a better edge distance in this area. After all, these
tail loads are not insignificant. But I also have a gut feel that due to
spacing and thickness of material, the 22x22 should be sufficient
(famous last words).
Again, thanks for your responses.
Scott
Working on Fuselage 601XL
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls |
Hey John,
I've got a couple of tidbits that might help here. If not, just tell me to go
back to my shop and drill more holes. :)
You can actually buy individual parts from Zenith - not even whole kits, but
individual parts. I got my horizontal stabilizer spars this way. In the builders
section of the Zenith website there's an "Online Kit Parts Database." You can
type in the part you're looking for and it will show you how much that part
costs. One caveat though - some of the prices are out of date, and there are
a lot of parts missing for the XL. I think they've pretty much quit maintaining
the database, but it's still very useful. In case I can't find what I'm looking
for, I just call 'em up and price the part.
Here's the link for Aircraft Spruce nylon. For some reason they put it in with
the metals. I guess by their thinking it's a "raw material."
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/me/nylon.html
Enjoy!
Debo Cox
XL/Corvair
Poundin' out wing ribs
Do not archive
---------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fuel pump puzzle |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Good morning!
I recently discovered that my fuel pumps are less
efficient in flight. Fuel pressure (which is measured
at the gascolator) gets down to ONE psi.
I have one pump at each wing tank (Fred, I'm not
sucking fuel :-) I also have a third pump at the
firewall.
Performance is the same with both the left and right
pumps. I feel the pressure is a tad higher when using
the firewall pump.
I did a test on the ground. Fuel flow is exactly the
same from the 3 pumps and is same as new pumps (25
gal/hr). Fuel pressure on the ground is normal (5 psi
per pump approx).
Anybody would know why I don't get the usual 3-5 psi
in flight? (now it is more like 1 to 3)
Yesterday, as a workaround, I used the firewall pump
in conjunction with the wing pumps (firewall pump is
in series) and I got 4-6 psi.
Michel
PS: the pumps I use are the Facet 40108 pumps. The
wing pumps have approx 200 hours of use each.
Firewall pump is much less solicitated.
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________________________
Message 4
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| Subject: | Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder |
Greetings everyone:
I not a very good builder and I am not much better as a pilot. However I do
have a CFI rating, thousands of flying hours, flown several different taildraggers,
currently own/fly a Luscombe, taught some people how to fly and given several
tailwheel endorsements. I haven't killed myself, wrecked, or groundlooped
any airplanes....yet. I wholeheartedly agree with the endorsement of Stick
& Rudder. It's an essential book for every pilot. The first time I read part
1 "Wings" and Chapter 1 "How a Wing is Flown" it cleared up so much confusion
in my previous 16 years of flying (including Air Force training). Get it,
read it, re-read it.
As far as crosswind landings go...I've seen 2 main schools of thought. What
I like is what I typically teach in a taildragger....wing low into the wind to
stop cross track....opposite rudder as needed to keep the nose pointed straight
down the runway. Other pilots like to maintain a crab into the wind and then
take it out when they are close to the ground. There can be a heated debate
on both sides of this topic.
As far as the 701 goes, I flew with Roger at the factory again a few weeks ago
and he said the plane is recommended not to be slipped (by Chris Heintz). He
demonstrated to me in a power off/nose high configuration that the airplane
will come down quickly and then added power as we got closer to the ground for
a soft landing. That was Roger's technique. I know many on this list have been
flying their planes for hundreds of hours and will probably have their own
techniques that work.
Thanks everyone for sharing information on this wonderful builder's list...I
am glad Jon survived his crash and I am glad our airplanes are designed to take
a beating.
Cheers,
Brian "Brain" Kissinger
www.brainsflight.com
---------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rear Longerons on 601XL |
Scott, your point about a wider bottom leg on the longeron is a valid one.
ZAC set up an impossible situation by clearly calling for the skin to align
with the tangent point of the longeron bend at the tail end of the fuselage and
taper to the sharp edge of the extruded front longeron. This makes it
impossible to get a 10 mm edge distance on both the longeron and the skin. Since
the
skin was already drilled with a 10 mm edge distance, the longeron edge
distance must suffer. I thought about placing a second row of rivets, offset from
the first row, with a 10 mm edge distance on the longeron. Decided that was
just overkill.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder |
>Hi Brian,
Thank you for your post on the crosswind landing issue. Your
comprehensive coverage of this topic leads me to ask you for further
information and opinion.
First is the issue of performing a forward slip landing with flaps
(or in the case of the 701 with slats). I think I have heard several
instructors suggest that either flaps or a slip is appropriate for
losing extra altitude on final approach but not both. I don't know
why both would be inappropriate, but I have never done the slip with
flaps because of that comment The kind of slip I am talking about in
this case is not the light one to compensate for a crosswind but the
deep one used to dump altitude.
The other issue is one that has bothered me ever since contemplating
flying again after some 15 years on the ground. It seems popular
today for pilots to land light planes with power all the way to
touchdown. I know this is common practice with multiengine planes,
but in the old days I was taught to make the final approach with
power off (unless there was a good reason to do otherwise like trying
to stay ahead of heavy traffic at high use airports). I think the
power off approach works just fine in most cases and also gives the
pilot plenty of practice for dead stick landings in case of engine
failure. I don't know of any advantage of using power on all
approaches other than it makes them a little easier to
perform. Sadly, there seem to be too many owners of light aircraft
who come to a bad end when they fail to make a good approach after an
engine failure and hit the only tree around or fail to clear the final hurdle.
In Roger's case, I can't help but wonder what will happen if his
"Behind the curve" dumping of altitude is punctuated by a failure of
the engine to slow the descent as you described. I have heard of
doing that sort of approach with power on, but never with power
off. The power on version is somewhat like a helicopter landing and
allows for crazy pilots to make incredibly short ground rolls, but is
not for the uninitiated or weak of heart.
I would love to hear you comments on the above issues.
Best regards,
Paul
XL fuselage
>
>I not a very good builder and I am not much better as a
>pilot. However I do have a CFI rating, thousands of flying hours,
>flown several different taildraggers, currently own/fly a Luscombe,
>taught some people how to fly and given several tailwheel
>endorsements. I haven't killed myself, wrecked, or groundlooped any
>airplanes....yet. I wholeheartedly agree with the endorsement of
>Stick & Rudder. It's an essential book for every pilot. The first
>time I read part 1 "Wings" and Chapter 1 "How a Wing is Flown" it
>cleared up so much confusion in my previous 16 years of flying
>(including Air Force training). Get it, read it, re-read it.
>
>As far as crosswind landings go...I've seen 2 main schools of
>thought. What I like is what I typically teach in a
>taildragger....wing low into the wind to stop cross
>track....opposite rudder as needed to keep the nose pointed straight
>down the runway. Other pilots like to maintain a crab into the wind
>and then take it out when they are close to the ground. There can be
>a heated debate on both sides of this topic.
>
>As far as the 701 goes, I flew with Roger at the factory again a few
>weeks ago and he said the plane is recommended not to be slipped (by
>Chris Heintz). He demonstrated to me in a power off/nose high
>configuration that the airplane will come down quickly and then
>added power as we got closer to the ground for a soft landing. That
>was Roger's technique. I know many on this list have been flying
>their planes for hundreds of hours and will probably have their own
>techniques that work.
>
>Thanks everyone for sharing information on this wonderful builder's
>list...I am glad Jon survived his crash and I am glad our airplanes
>are designed to take a beating.
>
>Cheers,
>Brian "Brain" Kissinger
><http://www.brainsflight.com/>www.brainsflight.com
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER--- |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
This is how my CFI taught me a few years ago...AND he was a retired large
transport plane pilot...
Randy
Do Nor Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 7:57 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> I agree with you about the CFI being afraid of a forward slip. That is
> outrageous.
>
> However, there is another way to do a cross-wind landing. I learned it
> from the old guy who was giving me instrument training. What you do is
> fly a crab angle down to the level where you are in ground effect -
> perhaps 10 feet off the ground and then kick the nose straight down the
> runway with the rudder at the last moment. Apparently, this is how it is
> done on large transport planes where the wingspan prevents a forward slip
> because the landing will take place on the upwind wing tip instead of the
> landing gear.
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
>
>
>>It's a pretty sad situation when your CFI is afraid of slips. How
>>else can you make a cross-wind landing?
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER--- |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
That's exactly my preferred technique for cross-wind landing.
BTW, since I am writing: at the local school, you are not allowed to fly solo unless
you have
enough cross-wind landings on your log book. Spin recovery and slips are also part
of the
syllabus.
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Priming wing parts, expect to put them together this summer.
Montreal, Canada
*** do not archive ***
--- Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> a crit :
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> I agree with you about the CFI being afraid of a forward slip. That
> is outrageous.
>
> However, there is another way to do a cross-wind landing. I learned
> it from the old guy who was giving me instrument training. What you
> do is fly a crab angle down to the level where you are in ground
> effect - perhaps 10 feet off the ground and then kick the nose
> straight down the runway with the rudder at the last
> moment. Apparently, this is how it is done on large transport planes
> where the wingspan prevents a forward slip because the landing will
> take place on the upwind wing tip instead of the landing gear.
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
__________________________________________________
En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Courriel vous offre la meilleure protection possible
contre les messages non nollicits
http://mail.yahoo.ca Yahoo! Courriel
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER--- sorry |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
I agree... I "fired" one CFI I had because he refused to teach me to fly
"by the seat of my pants."... The feeling I got, the way he was teaching
me, was to do everything by the book... If after completing the last step
in the book, you were still in trouble, you were also dead... In other
words, at that point, just give up... I found another CFI who had logged
over 40,000 hours back in the day, most of it flying cargo, and his teaching
method was more of "fly it till it hits the ground". He always told me the
reason people get killed in crashes is because they give up and quit flying
the plane. At one point this CFI covered all the instruments on the panel
except for the airspeed and altitude and this was basically how I learned to
fly... I can "feel" if the ball in not in the middle..etc...
Some may consider this type of flying dangerous..etc., but it works for me
and I like it...
Just my .02 worth...
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 9:36 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> My apologies if I appeared to not follow the irony, but I am really
> agreeing
> with you! Flying an old L-2 one instructor used to yell at me, "What cheek
> of your ass are sitting on?" Many modern instructors seem to have lost
> that
> feel.
>
> At the end of my flying days 20 years ago I had finally found a CFI that
> flew a Stearman. He understood slips. I had been reprimanded twice before
> that, once by a Flight Examiner and once by an Airport Manager!
>
> X-winds in a taildragger are most easily handled (says me) by conducting
> an
> up wind, one wheel landing. The up-wind wing is kept low by
> cross-controlling and the pilot keeps the nose pointed down the runway.
> It's
> essentially a forward slip in relationship to the wind.
>
> Keep on slipping,
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 6:06 PM
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
> All-
> READ MY POST!! IF YOU CAN'T APPRECIATE THE IRONY, GO BACK TO THE FUNNY
> PAGES!
> Bill
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 7:37 PM
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>>
>> I guess we now need to ask the CFI before the flight if he/she is afraid
>> of
>> side slips or forward slips. If they say, "Yes" then it's time to look
>> for
>
>> a
>> new CFI.
>>
>> Gary Boothe
>> Cool, CA
>> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
>> Tail done, working on wings....
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
>> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:21 PM
>>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
>> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>>
>> It's a pretty sad situation when your CFI is afraid of slips. How
>> else can you make a cross-wind landing?
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2006, at 4:28 PM, Big Gee wrote:
>>
>>> List---- sorry I mentioned Bingelis' books and STICK AND RUDDER. I
>>> finally realized I am wasting my time posting to this site.--------
>>> Next thing you'll be telling me is that crosswind landing should be
>>> avioded also. The way you guys are talking is: DON'T LEARN TO
>>> FLY THE AIRPLANE and to be prepaired for the unexpected, it is
>>> better to wait for the real thing--------- too late than.-----------
>>> Myself, I am glad I learned to fly during the "old school" of
>>> flight instruction.
>>> Fritz
>>>
>>> Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk"
>>>
>>> J-
>>> I speak only from my own experiences with newly minted CFIs. After
>>> shooting a number of the current textbook's landings with one, he
>>> said "Make
>>> a landing however you want".
>>> So I did the old WWII "Tight to the field" pattern. Turned to final
>>> (Of
>>> course) high and he said "You're too high, you'll never make it".
>>> Went into
>>> a slip and he said "Are you trying to kill us- you're cross
>>> controlled!"
>>> Don't know how it is where you're from, but around our area, slips and
>>> spins are maneuvers to be avoided.
>>> Bill
>>> do not archive
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:44 PM
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Bryan Martin
>> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
>> do not archive.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls |
Good to hear you've decided to scratch build!
I'm not sure of the price of the pedals from ZAC, but the Y control
stick and torque tube is about $265 or so, so I'd be the pedals will be
$400 or so...just a guess... You could call Shirley at ZAC and find out
for sure.
Another option is to buy your 4130 tubing from a source like Speedy
Metals, cut them to length, fishmouth them, and take them to a welder to
get them welded... Of course you'll end up with the price of the tubing
and the price the welder charges, but I'd say you'll end up with about
25% of the ZAC price for the same parts...
Randy
XL Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hines
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 12:17 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls
Guy,
I'm beginning to scratch build my fuselage and have a few questions.
I'm not a welder (at least not a good one) so I need to purchase some
parts already made. The rudder pedals come with the fuselage kit and
not the controls kit. How much does ZAC charge for the rudder pedals?
Also, where do I get the nylon to make the bearing? I checked aircraft
spruce and didn't see any. I guess if I buy the pedals from ZAC it
comes with the nylon but there are other areas that call for nylon.
Do most scratch builders purchase controls or fabricate them? On the
homebuilt help DVD about scratch building they mention a hardware kit
but of course don't mention a price. I don't see it anywhere on ZAC's
website. Sorry for rambling on. I've been staring at plans all night
and I'm starting to see double. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
John
www.johnsplane.com
Do not archive
John R. Hines
IT Manager
John.Hines@craftontull.com
Office: 479-878-2449
Mobile: 479-366-4783
Fax: 479-631-6224
www.craftontull.com
901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 =B7Rogers, AR 72756
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and
understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful
solutions.
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Slips/spins final |
All-
So what's come out of all of this is that the two schools of thought
have truly been identified. You can either be taught what to DO in a
certain situation, or you can be taught WHAT NOT TO DO.
Go back to my original post. I've experienced CFIs that freaked out
and told me NOT to use Langweishe's (Sp?) techniques. I was seeking help
in improving my landings in a C-172 that turned out to be out of rig,
and he couldn't do any better than I could.
On the other hand, I took a couple of hours of dual from a CFI who
got a big smile on his face when I told him I was building a plane that
didn't have flaps and wanted to learn every trick in the book for
no-flaps landings. We had a blast, but my son, who was in the back seat,
was a little green around the gills.
Now, what side of the fence to you think I'm on?
Bill
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Serial Number 6483 |
We will not have an official meeting at Arlington this year but we will
be having a Zenith gathering at someone=92s trailer on Thursday evening.
Check the Zenith Booth for more information as we develop it.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Ruddiman
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 1:27 AM
Is there going to be an official or unofficial meeting place at
Arlington? Like the Zenith display or?
Dave in Salem
----- Original Message -----
"mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com"zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 9:40 PM
They make you leave all of your beef at home also. I will be heading to
Arlington tomorrow.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
"mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com"owner-zenith-list-server@
matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Dave Ruddiman
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:45 PM
Larry,
Do you know if you are going to Arlington. I'm getting all fired up and
ready to go. My wife is punishing me and probably won't be there with
me. I think I'll be ok without here though. If anyone from Canada reads
this, I'll be wanting to talk to. Wife wants to go to Vancouver. All I
know is you travel North and they stop you and take your guns and drugs
away and then your there.
Dave in Salem
----- Original Message -----
"mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com"zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:50 AM
Dave, I was at Golden West in early May also. I was one of the guys
building a rudder to replace the one I had. It was stolen. I believe
Jim and his dad were the other guys building a rudder. I had a lot of
fun in Golden West and then went to the factory in Missouri. It was a
good month. Hopefully, I will be flying to Golden West next year.
Larry
Lakeview, OR
Fitted Firewall on front pan last night!!!
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
6/30/2006
--
6/30/2006
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
--
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER--- sorry |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Randy-
Where are you located? You didn't have the priviledge of doing some dual
with John J., did you? Cripes, I didn't get anything but the whiskey
compass!
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:40 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant"
> <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
>
> I agree... I "fired" one CFI I had because he refused to teach me to fly
> "by the seat of my pants."... The feeling I got, the way he was teaching
> me, was to do everything by the book... If after completing the last step
> in the book, you were still in trouble, you were also dead... In other
> words, at that point, just give up... I found another CFI who had logged
> over 40,000 hours back in the day, most of it flying cargo, and his
> teaching method was more of "fly it till it hits the ground". He always
> told me the reason people get killed in crashes is because they give up
> and quit flying the plane. At one point this CFI covered all the
> instruments on the panel except for the airspeed and altitude and this was
> basically how I learned to fly... I can "feel" if the ball in not in the
> middle..etc...
>
> Some may consider this type of flying dangerous..etc., but it works for me
> and I like it...
>
> Just my .02 worth...
>
> Randy
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 9:36 PM
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>>
>> Bill,
>>
>> My apologies if I appeared to not follow the irony, but I am really
>> agreeing
>> with you! Flying an old L-2 one instructor used to yell at me, "What
>> cheek
>> of your ass are sitting on?" Many modern instructors seem to have lost
>> that
>> feel.
>>
>> At the end of my flying days 20 years ago I had finally found a CFI that
>> flew a Stearman. He understood slips. I had been reprimanded twice before
>> that, once by a Flight Examiner and once by an Airport Manager!
>>
>> X-winds in a taildragger are most easily handled (says me) by conducting
>> an
>> up wind, one wheel landing. The up-wind wing is kept low by
>> cross-controlling and the pilot keeps the nose pointed down the runway.
>> It's
>> essentially a forward slip in relationship to the wind.
>>
>> Keep on slipping,
>> Gary
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
>> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 6:06 PM
>>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>>
>> All-
>> READ MY POST!! IF YOU CAN'T APPRECIATE THE IRONY, GO BACK TO THE FUNNY
>> PAGES!
>> Bill
>> do not archive
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 7:37 PM
>>
>>
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>>>
>>> I guess we now need to ask the CFI before the flight if he/she is afraid
>>> of
>>> side slips or forward slips. If they say, "Yes" then it's time to look
>>> for
>>
>>> a
>>> new CFI.
>>>
>>> Gary Boothe
>>> Cool, CA
>>> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
>>> Tail done, working on wings....
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
>>> Martin
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:21 PM
>>>
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
>>> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>>>
>>> It's a pretty sad situation when your CFI is afraid of slips. How
>>> else can you make a cross-wind landing?
>>>
>>> On Jul 1, 2006, at 4:28 PM, Big Gee wrote:
>>>
>>>> List---- sorry I mentioned Bingelis' books and STICK AND RUDDER. I
>>>> finally realized I am wasting my time posting to this site.--------
>>>> Next thing you'll be telling me is that crosswind landing should be
>>>> avioded also. The way you guys are talking is: DON'T LEARN TO
>>>> FLY THE AIRPLANE and to be prepaired for the unexpected, it is
>>>> better to wait for the real thing--------- too late than.-----------
>>>> Myself, I am glad I learned to fly during the "old school" of
>>>> flight instruction.
>>>> Fritz
>>>>
>>>> Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk"
>>>>
>>>> J-
>>>> I speak only from my own experiences with newly minted CFIs. After
>>>> shooting a number of the current textbook's landings with one, he
>>>> said "Make
>>>> a landing however you want".
>>>> So I did the old WWII "Tight to the field" pattern. Turned to final
>>>> (Of
>>>> course) high and he said "You're too high, you'll never make it".
>>>> Went into
>>>> a slip and he said "Are you trying to kill us- you're cross
>>>> controlled!"
>>>> Don't know how it is where you're from, but around our area, slips and
>>>> spins are maneuvers to be avoided.
>>>> Bill
>>>> do not archive
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:44 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bryan Martin
>>> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
>>> do not archive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder |
Paul, I agree. I also was taught to land light planes power off, and
only carried power when necessary, generally to lengthen an approach. I
use the slip and full flaps to drop out of the sky when needed, or just
for the fun of it. It's a very good exercise for coordination, just keep
one eye on the airspeed. I've found the technique very impressive when a
CFI on a biannual cuts power at 1200' mid field and wants a simulated
engine out landing. You can stay very close to the field with a rapid
decent and if it looks like you may come up short -- start easing up on
the slip and/or some flaps. This was a regular maneuver for me in a C177
Cardinal I owned for more than 10 years. I'm wondering if there is a
reason NOT to slip with full flaps in a 701?
Gordon
CH701 75%
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Matt - Request from Ed Welander's widow |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 12:56 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Moore <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
>
> Matt,
>
> Could you see to this request?
>
> I received this e-mail off list from Ed Welander's
> widow.
>
> Do not archive
>
> Craig Moore
>
>>To: moorecomp@yahoo.com
>>Subject: need help
>>Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 13:18:03 +1200
>
>>Craig, I just randomly picked your name off the
>>Zenith List. My husband, Ed Welander, was a
>>subscriber to the List. In 2001-02, He built a
>>Zenith CH 601-HDS while we were in America. We
>>brought it back to New Zealand with us when we
>>returned to the country in late 2003. He always
>>enjoyed the List...mostly just read it, very
>>occasionally he posted something. The reason I'm
>>writing....is that Ed had a massive heart attack on
>>24June. He didn't make it. I turned on his computer
>>today for the first time since he died. Hundreds of
>>messages from the List were waiting.
>>
>>I don't know how to post to the List, or how to stop
>>the subscription to it. Maybe you can help me?
>>
>>Also, perhaps you could post to the List about Ed's
>>death. There were many who recognized his name when
>>he posted. He was a licensed aircraft engineer for
>>40 years, most recently contracted to Air New Zealand
>>and worked the Auckland ramp. He also spent many
>>years in the air as a Flight Engineer (727's and
> DC->10's). His little Zenith is still here....I'm
> going >to have to face selling her. My heart is
> broken.
>>
>>Thank you for any help you can give me.
>>Nancy Welander
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder |
For many years I successfully side slipped my Piper Dakota when landing
in heavy crosswinds. I'd be extremely interested on an expansion of the
comment below that Chris doesn't recommend slips in the 701. Why? What
is the reaction of the plane? Thanks. Robert Schoenberger 701 60%
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian kissinger
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 9:00 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder
Greetings everyone:
I not a very good builder and I am not much better as a pilot.
However I do have a CFI rating, thousands of flying hours, flown several
different taildraggers, currently own/fly a Luscombe, taught some people
how to fly and given several tailwheel endorsements. I haven't killed
myself, wrecked, or groundlooped any airplanes....yet. I
wholeheartedly agree with the endorsement of Stick & Rudder. It's an
essential book for every pilot. The first time I read part 1 "Wings"
and Chapter 1 "How a Wing is Flown" it cleared up so much confusion in
my previous 16 years of flying (including Air Force training). Get it,
read it, re-read it.
As far as crosswind landings go...I've seen 2 main schools of thought.
What I like is what I typically teach in a taildragger....wing low into
the wind to stop cross track....opposite rudder as needed to keep the
nose pointed straight down the runway. Other pilots like to maintain a
crab into the wind and then take it out when they are close to the
ground. There can be a heated debate on both sides of this topic.
As far as the 701 goes, I flew with Roger at the factory again a few
weeks ago and he said the plane is recommended not to be slipped (by
Chris Heintz). He demonstrated to me in a power off/nose high
configuration that the airplane will come down quickly and then added
power as we got closer to the ground for a soft landing. That was
Roger's technique. I know many on this list have been flying their
planes for hundreds of hours and will probably have their own techniques
that work.
Thanks everyone for sharing information on this wonderful builder's
list...I am glad Jon survived his crash and I am glad our airplanes are
designed to take a beating.
Cheers,
Brian "Brain" Kissinger
www.brainsflight.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder |
In very light planes such as the 701, isn't the power on to landing due
to the lack of inertia of these planes? Robert Schoenberger 701 do not
archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder
Hi Brian,
Thank you for your post on the crosswind landing issue. Your
comprehensive coverage of this topic leads me to ask you for further
information and opinion.
First is the issue of performing a forward slip landing with flaps (or
in the case of the 701 with slats). I think I have heard several
instructors suggest that either flaps or a slip is appropriate for
losing extra altitude on final approach but not both. I don't know why
both would be inappropriate, but I have never done the slip with flaps
because of that comment The kind of slip I am talking about in this
case is not the light one to compensate for a crosswind but the deep one
used to dump altitude.
The other issue is one that has bothered me ever since contemplating
flying again after some 15 years on the ground. It seems popular today
for pilots to land light planes with power all the way to touchdown. I
know this is common practice with multiengine planes, but in the old
days I was taught to make the final approach with power off (unless
there was a good reason to do otherwise like trying to stay ahead of
heavy traffic at high use airports). I think the power off approach
works just fine in most cases and also gives the pilot plenty of
practice for dead stick landings in case of engine failure. I don't
know of any advantage of using power on all approaches other than it
makes them a little easier to perform. Sadly, there seem to be too many
owners of light aircraft who come to a bad end when they fail to make a
good approach after an engine failure and hit the only tree around or
fail to clear the final hurdle.
In Roger's case, I can't help but wonder what will happen if his
"Behind the curve" dumping of altitude is punctuated by a failure of the
engine to slow the descent as you described. I have heard of doing that
sort of approach with power on, but never with power off. The power on
version is somewhat like a helicopter landing and allows for crazy
pilots to make incredibly short ground rolls, but is not for the
uninitiated or weak of heart.
I would love to hear you comments on the above issues.
Best regards,
Paul
XL fuselage
I not a very good builder and I am not much better as a pilot.
However I do have a CFI rating, thousands of flying hours, flown several
different taildraggers, currently own/fly a Luscombe, taught some people
how to fly and given several tailwheel endorsements. I haven't killed
myself, wrecked, or groundlooped any airplanes....yet. I
wholeheartedly agree with the endorsement of Stick & Rudder. It's an
essential book for every pilot. The first time I read part 1 "Wings"
and Chapter 1 "How a Wing is Flown" it cleared up so much confusion in
my previous 16 years of flying (including Air Force training). Get it,
read it, re-read it.
As far as crosswind landings go...I've seen 2 main schools of
thought. What I like is what I typically teach in a taildragger....wing
low into the wind to stop cross track....opposite rudder as needed to
keep the nose pointed straight down the runway. Other pilots like to
maintain a crab into the wind and then take it out when they are close
to the ground. There can be a heated debate on both sides of this topic.
As far as the 701 goes, I flew with Roger at the factory again a few
weeks ago and he said the plane is recommended not to be slipped (by
Chris Heintz). He demonstrated to me in a power off/nose high
configuration that the airplane will come down quickly and then added
power as we got closer to the ground for a soft landing. That was
Roger's technique. I know many on this list have been flying their
planes for hundreds of hours and will probably have their own techniques
that work.
Thanks everyone for sharing information on this wonderful builder's
list...I am glad Jon survived his crash and I am glad our airplanes are
designed to take a beating.
Cheers,
Brian "Brain" Kissinger
www.brainsflight.com
Message 18
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Larry and Bryan:
Thanks for your cowl tips. I think I'll open the clearance from 20 to
25mm or so and add a few more fastener locations.
Any additional comments and advice still welcomed.
George
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel system poser |
In a message dated 7/1/2006 11:14:44 PM Central Daylight Time,
NYTerminat@aol.com writes:
Jerry,
Thanks, I missed the drilling of the 1/8" hole. Does that hole go straight up
through the cap? What about water entering the tank? I have had the left tank
burn off sooner than the right. I have fuel shut off valves at the door
headers so I can shut off the side that has less fuel than the other to balance
them out. Lately they have been going down pretty evenly.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX / 55hrs
Bob,
The reason I asked is that on previous list postings about fuel feed problems
no mention was made of the cap configuration, per the ZAC print. What changes
from the static gravity fuel flow tests, to the in flight system operation is
the air pressure in side the tank.
Change in the fuel level, head, and change in the tank pressure will effect
the ability of the fuel to gravity feed.
As to the location of the hole, I plan to drill through the middle hole
already located in the spring tensioned that is riveted in place in the cap. But
only thru the inside section.
The fuel caps on the 701 demo at SAC, have been modified to include a ram
air tube with an L brazed or welded to it and to the cap. That is what I am
planning on.
Some time ago a list 701 builder mentioned that in addition to using a ram
air tube, like Tony Binges suggests, he also soldered shut the four edge vents
inside the cap. That makes since to me because those vents live in the upper
wing surface low pressure area, during flight. So, it seems like the pressure
would reduce in the tank, due to out flow suction through the four edge vents in
the cap. Make since?
So that would result in the ram air tube feeding the tank, with no leakage at
the edge vents.
The cap gasket seal might also need work to assure a good seal. Prevent fuel
siphoning, Prevent air siphoning too. Perhaps a viton type seal rather than
pressed cardboard??
At any rate, if the gravity flow is OK during 14.7 static tests, ,,,, and has
less flow during flight, something has changed.
I'm thinking that the inside tank air pressure becomes less than atmospheric,
resulting in less fuel flow.
Also as fuel is used from the tank, there is less fuel head to aid in gravity
flow.
As to bubbles living in the fuel lines, and blocking fuel flow, it seems so
sensitive as to be in need of a serious fix. Would it be more prone to occur
during hot weather,, or when using auto fuel, or just after draining the
gascolator?? Just wondering out loud here.
Good luck with solving the problem, and please do keep us posted.
Jerry
CH 701 SP ~90%
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Fuel Sender...again... |
Over the past 2 days I've been scratch building my wing tanks... I plan
on doing a top installation of the fuel senders. Not really knowing the
exact location of where to cut the hole for the sender in the top of my
tank I did the following:
1. I put the tank on my level table and using a wooden block under one
end of the tank, simulating the dihedral of the wing.
2. Next I put a level flat on the table beside the tank simulated the
fuel level. I wanted my sender positioned in such a way that when the
float hit the bottom of the tank, I would still have approx. 3 gallons
of fuel in the tank. (Inboard bottom corner of the tank.)
3. Sliding the level back and forth along the table you can manipulate
the point where the fuel level and tank bottom meet. After doing some
calculations I came up with a placement of my sender where approx. 3
gallons would be left in the tank when the float hit the bottom of the
tank.
I guess my real question here is: Do you guys see anything wrong with
the way I'm doing this? Am I overlooking an important item in all of
this?
The measurement I came up with is that the sender would be 420mm from
the inboard tank end, measure towards outboard. I have posted an
illustration of what I'm trying to describe here:
http://www.n344rb.com/images/FuelSenderAnim.gif
Thanks in advance,
Randy
XL Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender...again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Randy,
I'd put the float in a position that puts the least amount of fuel at
the bottom of the fuel gage reading. It's being able to see the float
jiggle to a low fuel setting
that offers an idea of how far it is to empty. It would be my
preference to know that to within the last gallon. Where it is when
it's full or above half is of little consequence
compared to the gage that will read nearest empty. Otherwise you'd be
guessing when it hit bottom or if it hit bottom with 3 gallons in play
due to the movement of the
plane. My gages read to less than half a gallon and it's easy to tell
when they've stopped moving.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Randy Bryant wrote:
> Over the past 2 days I've been scratch building my wing tanks... I
> plan on doing a top installation of the fuel senders. Not really
> knowing the exact location of where to cut the hole for the sender in
> the top of my tank I did the following:
>
> 1. I put the tank on my level table and using a wooden block under
> one end of the tank, simulating the dihedral of the wing.
>
> 2. Next I put a level flat on the table beside the tank simulated the
> fuel level. I wanted my sender positioned in such a way that when the
> float hit the bottom of the tank, I would still have approx. 3 gallons
> of fuel in the tank. (Inboard bottom corner of the tank.)
>
> 3. Sliding the level back and forth along the table you can
> manipulate the point where the fuel level and tank bottom meet. After
> doing some calculations I came up with a placement of my sender where
> approx. 3 gallons would be left in the tank when the float hit the
> bottom of the tank.
>
> I guess my real question here is: Do you guys see anything wrong with
> the way I'm doing this? Am I overlooking an important item in all of
> this?
>
> The measurement I came up with is that the sender would be 420mm from
> the inboard tank end, measure towards outboard. I have posted an
> illustration of what I'm trying to describe here:
> http://www.n344rb.com/images/FuelSenderAnim.gif
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Randy
> XL Wings - Plans Only
> http://www.n344rb.com
>
> Do Not Archive
>
Message 22
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sherman <msherman95632@yahoo.com>
I had a 1964 C-150 that was approved for slips with
full flaps. It dropped like a rock. Then I bought a
1961 C-175 it was not approved for slips with full
flaps only half flaps. When I asked around to various
CFI's they didn't know. At a back-country check out
in Montana I ask the instructor the same question, he
said that certain aircraft loose rudder and elevator
authority because to much air is deflected from them.
With a possibility of loss of control.
So I never side slipped the C-175 with full flaps but
did a lot of times with partial flaps. That's my
preferred cross wind landing technique
Mark S.
701/912S
Painting
__________________________________________________
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls |
John, I just checked the price of the hardware kit that you mentioned and
ZAC wants $425.00 for it. Shirley stated that all the hardware needed for the
XL was in it.
Larry
Lakeview, OR
Building fuse!!
Message 24
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
George,
The Dzus fasteners are easy to install just as you see in the link
below. I've put my cowl on the exterior of the aluminum fuselage which
puts the springs
inside attached to the aluminum. I did a large dimpler for the dzus
fastener stud and if you decide to go with them, let me know and I'll
make one
up for you and send it no cost. The simplicity of dimpling to use A4s
for the springs is really easy once you use a template.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzusspring.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzusdimples.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzustools.gif
I believe the cowl comes off much easier because the number of studs are
held to a minimum. It's way stronger than it looks.
With more studs, you'll fight alignments in the installation and daily
access. With the number I used, the cowl comes off in about 30-seconds
and goes back on in about 45-seconds.
The exhaust clearance tubes were formed using a large rubber mallet on a
piece of aluminum over a heavy wall 2-inch steel tube that was smooth
on the outside. Any diameter from 1-1/2 to 3-inches would work. Put the
tube in a vise and lay the aluminum over the tube and start working it into
shape.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowlfairingsinside.gif
The bumpouts don't need to be anywhere near as large as the ones
provided and you can do a layup of a smaller fiberglass bumpout using
the one
sent with the cowl, adding your own flange. I've got a 1/4-inch
clearance on the nearest side owing to engine offset angle and the
leading cylinder.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowlcheekinstall.gif
If you need any other specific details, you only have to ask.
Larry McFarland
George Swinford wrote:
> Larry and Bryan:
>
> Thanks for your cowl tips. I think I'll open the clearance from 20 to
> 25mm or so and add a few more fastener locations.
>
> Any additional comments and advice still welcomed.
>
> George
Message 25
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| Subject: | Mounting Horizontal Tail and Elevator on CH701 |
John,
I think that info is in the final assembly section.
Do Not Archive
Tommy Walker in Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of john swanson
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 3:16 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Mounting Horizontal Tail and Elevator on CH701
Help
Please can anyone building a CH701 tell me where to find information to
mount the Elevator and Horz.
stab. Been looking and looking and cannot find anything either on the
drqwings or Photo Guides.
What am I missing?
Thanks
John
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Rear Wing Spar |
Hi Gary,
Nope, not flying, just building. Actually I pretty much have all the
tail surfaces done, the flaperons and the slats. I think the wing kit
ships next week. Kind of running out of room at home. Probably have to
move some parts to the airport soon.
Dave in Salem - 801
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 11:03 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rear Wing Spar
Hi Dave,
Sorry to have missed Golden West - again (family function). Things are
not so cool in Cool, right now. Summers can be warm, but not as warm as
Lincoln.
Are you flying your 801?
Gary
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Ruddiman
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:29 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rear Wing Spar
Gary,
I see you are from Cool California. I never heard of the place until I
bought some chairs from a Gal at Golden West fly-in that said she was
from Cool. How cool.
Dave in Salem - 801
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 6:19 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Rear Wing Spar
OK, List, time for some of that camaraderie, support, and over-all
good ideas. If I was a drinking man I'd be on my 2nd six-pack by now.
I finished my right wing (Zenith supplied kit) and started on the
left wing today. I was toe-tapping to some good country music when I
realized I had cut and drilled the rear spar as if it was for the right
wing (obviously not focused on the task at hand).
The good news is that I have plenty of aluminum as I plan on scratch
building the remainder. The bad news is that I have not yet built Dave's
Cheap Sheet Metal Bending Brake (nor do I have the parts).
I sure hate to waste the weekend and you will all feel bad if I end
up at the local watering hole tonight.
Any ideas? Do I have any options?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Message 27
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| Subject: | Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder |
Paul, I agree. I also was taught to land light planes power off, and
only carried power when necessary, generally to lengthen an approach. I
use the slip and full flaps to drop out of the sky when needed, or just
for the fun of it. It's a very good exercise for coordination, just keep
one eye on the airspeed. I've found the technique very impressive when a
CFI on a biannual cuts power at 1200' mid field and wants a simulated
engine out landing. You can stay very close to the field with a rapid
decent and if it looks like you may come up short -- start easing up on
the slip and/or some flaps. This was a regular maneuver for me in a C177
Cardinal I owned for more than 10 years. I'm wondering if there is a
reason NOT to slip with full flaps in a 701?
Gordon
CH701 75%
Message 28
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| Subject: | XL Gear Supports |
For someone who has mounted an XL gear support: The sides of the fuselage at
this point are perpendicular to the bottom. The piece of the support bracket
that fastens to the bottom is not perpendicular to the vertical plate of the
bracket. In ZAC's terms, it is "open" about one degree. When the vertical
plate is flush with the side skin, there is a gap between the inboard edge of the
horizontal plate and the gear channel of about 2 mm. When riveted, it
appears that it woule warp the gear channel. Has anyone encountered this problem?
And what can be done to correct it?
Jay in Dallas
Message 29
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Another point: It really irritates me that now I am told that I must trim
the end of the gear channel 2 or 3 mm to clear the weld on the gear support
bracket. It would be a major problem, at this point, to take the gear channel
out
of the assembly to do this trimming.
If you can still hold the gear channel in your hand, I would suggest that you
do this trimming before the channel is "buried" in the fuselage!
Jay in Dallas
Message 30
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
Larry, the Dzus dimpler would be very much appreciated.
I've been looking at the oil pan "bump" that Zenith sent. The flange
doesn't much match the contour of the lower cowl, does it? They could do
better, if they gave a damn. I can see that I'm going to have to learn
fiberglass work, like it or not, and I don't.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 2:08 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> George,
> The Dzus fasteners are easy to install just as you see in the link
> below. I've put my cowl on the exterior of the aluminum fuselage which
> puts the springs
> inside attached to the aluminum. I did a large dimpler for the dzus
> fastener stud and if you decide to go with them, let me know and I'll
> make one
> up for you and send it no cost. The simplicity of dimpling to use A4s
> for the springs is really easy once you use a template.
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzusspring.gif
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzusdimples.gif
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzustools.gif
> I believe the cowl comes off much easier because the number of studs are
> held to a minimum. It's way stronger than it looks.
> With more studs, you'll fight alignments in the installation and daily
> access. With the number I used, the cowl comes off in about 30-seconds
> and goes back on in about 45-seconds.
>
> The exhaust clearance tubes were formed using a large rubber mallet on a
> piece of aluminum over a heavy wall 2-inch steel tube that was smooth
> on the outside. Any diameter from 1-1/2 to 3-inches would work. Put the
> tube in a vise and lay the aluminum over the tube and start working it
into
> shape.
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowlfairingsinside.gif
>
> The bumpouts don't need to be anywhere near as large as the ones
> provided and you can do a layup of a smaller fiberglass bumpout using
> the one
> sent with the cowl, adding your own flange. I've got a 1/4-inch
> clearance on the nearest side owing to engine offset angle and the
> leading cylinder.
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowlcheekinstall.gif
>
> If you need any other specific details, you only have to ask.
>
> Larry McFarland
>
> George Swinford wrote:
>
> > Larry and Bryan:
> >
> > Thanks for your cowl tips. I think I'll open the clearance from 20 to
> > 25mm or so and add a few more fastener locations.
> >
> > Any additional comments and advice still welcomed.
> >
> > George
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Fuel System Poser - solved!/ really?? |
Fred-
Do me, yourself and your passengers a favor------- get this problem fixed before
you fly. Your "band-aid" cure is only giving you false security. If you
want to fly under this (air bubble in fuel line) circumstances fine, but it
is not fair to your passengers.
You may be betting your life on the statement: "I'm sure there it is not enough
air to cause the engine to quit."
Fritz
fred sanford <sonar1@cox.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford
The bubble either stays where it is, moves
down the line and stays there, or some of it comes out of the output.
I'm sure it is not enough air to cause the engine to quit, but it is
disconcerting to see one tank empty, and one full!
I am making a fuel cap with a 6 foot hose, so I can blow any bubbles
into the opposite tank as part of the preflight before any long flights.
Should fix the problem.
Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. 70 hours loving it!
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender...again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
Thanks Larry,
In short, I guess what you're saying is for me not to have a "built in"
reserve with my guage...???
Just make it read what's really there.. If it's full, it's full, if it's
empty, it's empty...right?
Thanks!
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:45 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Randy,
> I'd put the float in a position that puts the least amount of fuel at the
> bottom of the fuel gage reading. It's being able to see the float jiggle
> to a low fuel setting
> that offers an idea of how far it is to empty. It would be my preference
> to know that to within the last gallon. Where it is when it's full or
> above half is of little consequence
> compared to the gage that will read nearest empty. Otherwise you'd be
> guessing when it hit bottom or if it hit bottom with 3 gallons in play due
> to the movement of the
> plane. My gages read to less than half a gallon and it's easy to tell
> when they've stopped moving.
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> Randy Bryant wrote:
>
>> Over the past 2 days I've been scratch building my wing tanks... I plan
>> on doing a top installation of the fuel senders. Not really knowing the
>> exact location of where to cut the hole for the sender in the top of my
>> tank I did the following:
>> 1. I put the tank on my level table and using a wooden block under one
>> end of the tank, simulating the dihedral of the wing.
>> 2. Next I put a level flat on the table beside the tank simulated the
>> fuel level. I wanted my sender positioned in such a way that when the
>> float hit the bottom of the tank, I would still have approx. 3 gallons of
>> fuel in the tank. (Inboard bottom corner of the tank.)
>> 3. Sliding the level back and forth along the table you can manipulate
>> the point where the fuel level and tank bottom meet. After doing some
>> calculations I came up with a placement of my sender where approx. 3
>> gallons would be left in the tank when the float hit the bottom of the
>> tank.
>> I guess my real question here is: Do you guys see anything wrong with
>> the way I'm doing this? Am I overlooking an important item in all of
>> this?
>> The measurement I came up with is that the sender would be 420mm from
>> the inboard tank end, measure towards outboard. I have posted an
>> illustration of what I'm trying to describe here:
>> http://www.n344rb.com/images/FuelSenderAnim.gif
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Randy
>> XL Wings - Plans Only
>> http://www.n344rb.com
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 33
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
George,
Fiberglassing isn't so difficult to learn, but do wear a 3M
organic/charcoal respirator when you work with the resin.
The respirator will keep you safe as well as eliminate your having to
smell the stuff in process. Nowdays,
I get deathly ill if I don't have the respirator on with the resin
container lid off. Do wear latex gloves.
Acetone will cut the stuff better than anything. You need more guidance
on doing fiberglass, I can summarize it
for you, or you can read up and get there off the Internet. If so, let
me know when you get there.
Larry McFarland
George Swinford wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
>
>Larry, the Dzus dimpler would be very much appreciated.
>
>I've been looking at the oil pan "bump" that Zenith sent. The flange
>doesn't much match the contour of the lower cowl, does it? They could do
>better, if they gave a damn. I can see that I'm going to have to learn
>fiberglass work, like it or not, and I don't.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 2:08 PM
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Poser - solved!/ really?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford <sonar1@cox.net>
Fritz:
You missed the fix. Next paragraph.
For long flights that will require both tanks, I plan to use my new
"hose on a fuel cap" and pressurize the left tank to push any bubbles in
the right line into the right tank.
And then do the same for the other side. No bubbles, no air in the fuel
pump, even feeding from both tanks, no engine sputters, no
problem........Fred
Do not archive
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender...again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Unfortunately, because of the dihedral, you can't position the
senders so that they are accurate at both ends of the scale. If you
set them up to read accurately when the tanks are full, you'll still
have a few gallons left when they read empty and if you position them
to read accurately at the bottom end of the scale, you'll burn off a
few gallons before they move off the full mark.
I would say that the guage should read empty when the tank is empty.
That way, you won't be tempted to try to stretch your flight a little
further thinking that you still have that three gallons left in the
tank. When the guage reads empty, it's time to land, now, because you
really don't know how much fuel is left after the gauges bottom out.
It's much more critical to know when the tanks are going empty. I
don't care about the first few gallons I burn, it's the last few
gallons I worry about.
On Jul 2, 2006, at 6:49 PM, Randy Bryant wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant"
> <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
>
> Thanks Larry,
>
> In short, I guess what you're saying is for me not to have a "built
> in" reserve with my guage...???
>
> Just make it read what's really there.. If it's full, it's full, if
> it's empty, it's empty...right?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Randy
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:45 PM
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland
>> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>>
>> Randy,
>> I'd put the float in a position that puts the least amount of fuel
>> at the bottom of the fuel gage reading. It's being able to see
>> the float jiggle to a low fuel setting
>> that offers an idea of how far it is to empty. It would be my
>> preference to know that to within the last gallon. Where it is
>> when it's full or above half is of little consequence
>> compared to the gage that will read nearest empty. Otherwise
>> you'd be guessing when it hit bottom or if it hit bottom with 3
>> gallons in play due to the movement of the
>> plane. My gages read to less than half a gallon and it's easy to
>> tell when they've stopped moving.
>>
>> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>>
>> Randy Bryant wrote:
>>
>>> Over the past 2 days I've been scratch building my wing tanks...
>>> I plan on doing a top installation of the fuel senders. Not
>>> really knowing the exact location of where to cut the hole for
>>> the sender in the top of my tank I did the following:
>>> 1. I put the tank on my level table and using a wooden block
>>> under one end of the tank, simulating the dihedral of the wing.
>>> 2. Next I put a level flat on the table beside the tank
>>> simulated the fuel level. I wanted my sender positioned in such
>>> a way that when the float hit the bottom of the tank, I would
>>> still have approx. 3 gallons of fuel in the tank. (Inboard bottom
>>> corner of the tank.)
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Poser - solved!/ really?? |
Fred--
I didn't miss it, it just didn't re-print for some reason. That is my concern.
the problem isn't being fixed.
I don't want to beat this to death, but I am concerned. I can only tell you
what I'd do:
1) I'd put on new vent caps built like one other lister discribed and built
like Tony Bingelis shows in his book.
2) I would install a fuel control valve like Chris H. calls for in the 601XL---
that is a 3 way position valve: left/ off/ right. THE PILOT SHOULD BE
CONTROL THE FUEL FLOW. Allowing both tanks to gravity feed at the same time
adds to your problem.
Honestly, I would not fly in your airplane with you under these known conditions.
Best of luck
Fritz
fred sanford <sonar1@cox.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford
Fritz:
You missed the fix. Next paragraph.
For long flights that will require both tanks, I plan to use my new
"hose on a fuel cap" and pressurize the left tank to push any bubbles in
the right line into the right tank.
And then do the same for the other side. No bubbles, no air in the fuel
pump, even feeding from both tanks, no engine sputters, no
problem........Fred
Do not archive
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender...again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
Thanks Bryan,
That makes 2 of you that have said the same thing... I'm convinced... As
you say though, you can make it either read accurate at full or at empty,
but not much you can do in the between... I'll go the route you and Larry
have recommended.
Thanks!
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 9:02 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> Unfortunately, because of the dihedral, you can't position the senders so
> that they are accurate at both ends of the scale. If you set them up to
> read accurately when the tanks are full, you'll still have a few gallons
> left when they read empty and if you position them to read accurately at
> the bottom end of the scale, you'll burn off a few gallons before they
> move off the full mark.
>
> I would say that the guage should read empty when the tank is empty.
> That way, you won't be tempted to try to stretch your flight a little
> further thinking that you still have that three gallons left in the tank.
> When the guage reads empty, it's time to land, now, because you really
> don't know how much fuel is left after the gauges bottom out. It's much
> more critical to know when the tanks are going empty. I don't care about
> the first few gallons I burn, it's the last few gallons I worry about.
>
> On Jul 2, 2006, at 6:49 PM, Randy Bryant wrote:
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant"
>> <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
>>
>> Thanks Larry,
>>
>> In short, I guess what you're saying is for me not to have a "built in"
>> reserve with my guage...???
>>
>> Just make it read what's really there.. If it's full, it's full, if it's
>> empty, it's empty...right?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Randy
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:45 PM
>>
>>
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland
>>> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>>>
>>> Randy,
>>> I'd put the float in a position that puts the least amount of fuel at
>>> the bottom of the fuel gage reading. It's being able to see the float
>>> jiggle to a low fuel setting
>>> that offers an idea of how far it is to empty. It would be my
>>> preference to know that to within the last gallon. Where it is when
>>> it's full or above half is of little consequence
>>> compared to the gage that will read nearest empty. Otherwise you'd be
>>> guessing when it hit bottom or if it hit bottom with 3 gallons in play
>>> due to the movement of the
>>> plane. My gages read to less than half a gallon and it's easy to tell
>>> when they've stopped moving.
>>>
>>> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>>>
>>> Randy Bryant wrote:
>>>
>>>> Over the past 2 days I've been scratch building my wing tanks... I
>>>> plan on doing a top installation of the fuel senders. Not really
>>>> knowing the exact location of where to cut the hole for the sender in
>>>> the top of my tank I did the following:
>>>> 1. I put the tank on my level table and using a wooden block under
>>>> one end of the tank, simulating the dihedral of the wing.
>>>> 2. Next I put a level flat on the table beside the tank simulated
>>>> the fuel level. I wanted my sender positioned in such a way that when
>>>> the float hit the bottom of the tank, I would still have approx. 3
>>>> gallons of fuel in the tank. (Inboard bottom corner of the tank.)
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL,
> RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
> do not archive.
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 38
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" <juhl@avci.net>
I've been a CFII for 21 of my 31 years of flying - I've slipped many different
aicraft without incident, including a Cessna 172 with full flaps. I've been told
to avoid slips in a 4-place Cessna with full flaps when the rear seats are
occupied but I've never had any problems. I own an Aeronca Champ and fly it into
my 1200 foot strip over obstacles so slips are a part of every landing.
My suggestion to anyone new to slips is to practice at altitude, especially in
an aircraft whose flight characteristics are unknown to you.
Slips should be performed at normal approach speeds (approx. 1.3 times stall speed.)
Slips attempted when an aircraft is at the ragged edge of a stall may
lead to a spin entry.
I would suspect that Zenith aircraft, in particular the slab-sided 701 & 801 would
slip very nicely. Slips are a great way to lose altitude in a hurry and I
like the fact that the moment you remove the slip you're back flying normally.
You do need to warn your passengers, however.
Tim Juhl
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Horiz. Stab. & Elev.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44468#44468
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| Subject: | Re: Ratchet Tiedowns |
Dave, try Wal-Mart they have the Highland #11699 12' Endless Ractchet
tiedowns ($4-$6 each)
Lee
Subject: Ratchet Tiedowns
From: Dave VanLanen (davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat Jul 01 - 3:47 PM
I need some advice on ratchet tiedowns for the stabilizer skin and wing
skins on the XL. For the stabilizer skin, the Assembly Guide recommends
five 12' endless ratchet tiedowns (#11699) from Highland. For the
wings,
the Assembly Guide recommends McMaster Carr 12' 1-piece ratchet straps
(#8842T17), and does not recommend the number needed.
Is there any reason I can't use the same straps for both the stabilizer
and
wings? How many will I need for the wings? Can I use the two-piece
style,
since I can't seem to find the one-piece style locally in the correct
length?
Any help would be appreciated.
Dave Van Lanen
XL - stabilizer
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| Subject: | mounting tail feathers |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Mine were hiding in the "Assembly Manual"........however, since my kit is vintage
1999, and was at the point where ZAC issued BOTH the old hand-drawn drawings
AND the newer CAD drawings. I only got the "old" assembly manual.
It's in there, but you have to read carefully, closely, and patiently......I nearly
wore out a pair of shoes walking around the tail area looking.....you only
get to drill the holes once; make SURE before you drill.
A good measuring tape and an electronic "smart" level will do the trick.
For left-right, just attempt to get the fuselage level....tire pressure will do
this, measured at the rear of the cabin/front of the rear fuselage.
For fore & aft, as I recall, the instructions call for the top side of the horizontal
stabilizer to be parallel with the top of the fuselage, and XXX mm above
(don't remember exactly, see manual) the fuselage top.
The "smart" level will read out in tenths of a degree..... simply read the level
and make the horiz stab agree with the fuselage. Same for the port-starboard
setting.
Biggest problem is making sure the rudder and elevator move through the proper
arcs without binding before you nail the horiz stab. This is really a two-person
task, although with scrapes and cuts and a great deal of loud expletives you
can mount these parts alone.
Regards,
Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc/do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel system poser |
In a message dated 7/2/2006 1:50:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
JERICKSON03E@aol.com writes:
The fuel caps on the 701 demo at SAC, have been modified to include a ram
air tube with an L brazed or welded to it and to the cap. That is what I am
planning on.
Jerry,
Thanks for your input, the demo may have a header tank which I believe
required the ram air tube.
Bob Spudis
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Re: Fuel System Poser - solved!/ really?? |
>Fred:
>I didn't miss it, it just didn't re-print for some reason. That is my concern.
>the problem isn't being fixed.
> I don't want to beat this to death, but I am concerned. I can only tell you
>what I'd do:
> 1) I'd put on new vent caps built like one other lister discribed and built
>like Tony Bingelis shows in his book.
> 2) I would install a fuel control valve like Chris H. calls for in the 601XL---
>that is a 3 way position valve: left/ off/ right. THE PILOT SHOULD BE
>CONTROL THE FUEL FLOW. Allowing both tanks to gravity feed at the same time
>adds to your problem.
> Honestly, I would not fly in your airplane with you under these known conditions.
> Best of luck
>Fritz
Fritz:
You wouldn't fly with me in my plane? It is a CH701, built just as designed by
Chris Heintz,
and is one of the 600 or so flying all around the world built to his specs. We
made no changes.
Build yours like you want - we can each do that right?
I feel that if I keep the bubbles out of the line, the tanks will feed evenly.
Enough on this topic....Fred.
For Jerry and Bob, yes, the demo 701 does have a header tank.
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Sorry List..goofed again |
No problem Rick, Now that we ALL know, when we visit Spruce in GA, we will
drop by to visit and have a beer...
Not this time in my case, I will fly to Los Angeles in a few weeks. :-) :-)
Happy building and hope you finish soon... Will you use the Raven Geo Conversion?
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico
Rick R <rick@n701rr.com> wrote: Sorry list..this bites my butt every time. This
was meant for Tommy.
Do not archive.
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