---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/03/06: 60 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:19 AM - Fw: Rear Spar mistake (ABGS) 2. 06:03 AM - Re: Gauges (Frank Roskind) 3. 07:08 AM - Flying stuff (Brian kissinger) 4. 07:10 AM - 701 demo update (Brian kissinger) 5. 07:33 AM - Re: 22000 MF Capacitor (Noel Loveys) 6. 08:19 AM - Re: Ratchet Tiedowns () 7. 08:38 AM - Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls () 8. 08:45 AM - Re: Flying stuff (Chuck Deiterich) 9. 09:04 AM - Great tool - Cheap Pirce (Robert Schoenberger) 10. 09:04 AM - Arlington (Dan Lykowski) 11. 09:24 AM - Re: Flying stuff (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER (Tom and Bren Henderson) 13. 09:55 AM - Fw: Fuel pump puzzle (Michel Therrien) 14. 10:20 AM - Re: XL Gear Support (Tom and Bren Henderson) 15. 10:32 AM - Re: Flying stuff (Chuck Deiterich) 16. 10:43 AM - Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls (Tom and Bren Henderson) 17. 11:07 AM - Re: Flying stuff (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 11:29 AM - Re: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) (Dave and Jan Clay) 19. 11:29 AM - Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls (Ron Butterfield) 20. 12:07 PM - Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls (Paul Mulwitz) 21. 12:07 PM - Re: Fuel pump puzzle (Bryan Martin) 22. 12:09 PM - Re: Flying stuff (Dave) 23. 12:14 PM - Re: Arlington (Dave Ruddiman) 24. 12:17 PM - Re: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) (Randy Bryant) 25. 12:34 PM - Re: Flying stuff (ron dewees) 26. 12:37 PM - Re: Slips (Paul Tipton) 27. 12:47 PM - Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (messydeer) 28. 01:16 PM - Re: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) (Christopher Smith) 29. 01:30 PM - Re: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder (Ron Lee) 30. 01:38 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (Tom and Bren Henderson) 31. 01:45 PM - Re: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) (N5SL) 32. 01:54 PM - Re: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls (NYTerminat@aol.com) 33. 02:06 PM - Re: Flying stuff (NYTerminat@aol.com) 34. 02:13 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (NYTerminat@aol.com) 35. 02:19 PM - Re: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder (NYTerminat@aol.com) 36. 02:41 PM - Re: Fuel pump puzzle (Michel Therrien) 37. 02:49 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 38. 03:03 PM - Re: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) (Wade Jones) 39. 03:14 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (Tom and Bren Henderson) 40. 03:43 PM - RE : Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (Carlos Sa) 41. 03:54 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (Randy Bryant) 42. 03:54 PM - Engine decisions getting easier (LarryMcFarland) 43. 03:54 PM - Fitting Stratus/601 cowl (George Swinford) 44. 04:21 PM - Plans builder HELP!!! (LHusky@aol.com) 45. 04:57 PM - Re: Engine decisions getting easier (Robin Bellach) 46. 05:31 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (Noel Loveys) 47. 05:55 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (Mark Sherman) 48. 06:52 PM - flanging dies (Big Gee) 49. 07:21 PM - Re: Plans builder HELP!!! (MacDonald Doug) 50. 07:23 PM - Re: flanging dies (Randy Bryant) 51. 07:28 PM - Re: Fitting Stratus/601 cowl (LarryMcFarland) 52. 07:38 PM - Re: flanging dies (LHusky@aol.com) 53. 07:39 PM - Re: Plans builder HELP!!! (LHusky@aol.com) 54. 07:53 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (messydeer) 55. 08:53 PM - Re: Flying stuff (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 56. 08:56 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (NYTerminat@aol.com) 57. 09:14 PM - Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II (messydeer) 58. 10:03 PM - Re: Fuel pump puzzle (Bryan Martin) 59. 10:27 PM - Bending wing rear channels for scratch builders (Dave and Jan Clay) 60. 11:23 PM - Re: Fuel Sender...again... (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:32 AM PST US From: "ABGS" Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: Rear Spar mistake ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:21 PM Allan Plan page 6-W-7 I have drilled the hole in the rear spar for the Aileron Control Rod on the top of the spar not on the bottom as shown ------------------------------- You are not the first, Chris has approved the fix as shown in the attached pdf file. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:46 AM PST US From: "Frank Roskind" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gauges --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" That works after you buy the stuff, but what about before. For example, what is the lightest weight transponder/ encoder installation, and how does it compare to competitors? I assume there are tradeoffs between weght savigs and costs, but not in all cases. Further, I would guess that some radios and instruments need less stuff outside the case than others, so it isn't jsut a matter of comparing raw instrument or radio weight. If I am shopping different SLSAs I need to be able to guess the best aircraft for he mission, and figure out what equipment is feasible. If radios andinstruments weigh over 40 pounds, that can be a big deal, and might lead to efforts to save weight. Maybe a smaller altimeter is in order. maybe a smaller tach. Do I really need to measure EGT and CHT, and if so how many probes? Do I really need a Nav/Com, or shoud I go with just a Com, and carry a GPS? I thnk weight of radios and isntruments could be a big planning issue, and I wonder where potential data is. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" The manufacturers documentation ...See there are reasons not to throw out all that junk;^} Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Frank Roskind > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:41 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gauges > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" > > > This brings to mind a question I have had for quite a while. > Is there a > source for installed weights of various instruments and radios? > > > > I Agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I assembled my panel > and"complete" it weighed > in at 43 lbs.. > do not archive > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > -- "Jari Kaija" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" > > > I can't wait, that I get my plane ready to fly :) > > It was surprising, how much this instrument panel weights. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43687#43687 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/news_dsc03791_673.jpg > > > > > > > =================================== > > =================================== > > =================================== > =================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:42 AM PST US From: Brian kissinger Subject: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Thanks everyone for their inputs on flying, slips, etc. Like building our planes and living our lives I hope we all do it as safe as possible but have fun. Paul I agree with your comments and in my Luscombe I fly close patterns & sometimes have almost full rudder in a slip depending on the situation. Slips are fun and look cool! But a taildragger with no flaps is much different from a 701. As far as the 701 goes I can only go from what Roger at the factory told me and that was, "it's not recommended to slip the 701 by the designer." And I believe he said it's because of the increased side loads it puts on the airframe. Can we slip a 701...sure...and in an emergency situation where I had one shot at a landing strip I would. I only put this information out on the list as that....information. It's your airplane...slip it or don't slip it....your decision. As another CFI mentioned on the list...don't get too slow in a slip or you risk entering a stall or spin at a low altitude....bad situation. Practice at altitude first. Roger's technique is what I would consider an advanced technique with having a low power setting to get the descent rate you want (almost a stall) then adding power close to the ground. Look at "Stick and Rudder" chapter 14 for an explanation of the principles of why this works. Make sure you are comfortable with basic flying maneuvers, takeoffs, landings, etc before you try what I mention above. Many of us have not flown in years and need to focus on the basics. Set personal minimums for yourself, weather, etc and stick to them. Have fun and be safe. Cheers, Brian www.brainsflight.com do not archive --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:28 AM PST US From: Brian kissinger Subject: Zenith-List: 701 demo update I was at the factory in Mexico, MO on Friday to pick up some parts. They were hanging a 912S Rotax (100 hp) on the 701 demo bird to get it ready for Oshkosh. They also removed the header fuel tank to get it more in line with the configuration they are selling now. Cheers, Brian www.brainsflight.com --------------------------------- Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:34 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 22000 MF Capacitor --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Wiring a nice heavy lytic cap like that in reverse polarity will eventually result in a big bang. The higher the voltage and current fed into the cap in reverse polarity, the faster you will hear the bang. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Paul Mulwitz > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 7:54 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 22000 MF Capacitor > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > Hi Tommy, > > A capacitor that large is usually polarized. That means you need to > attach the "Plus" contact of the capacitor to the "Plus" side of your > electrical hookup. > > I can't tell from your description which contact is the > "Plus". Perhaps if you sent me a picture I could tell. There are > many different ways of marking those parts. One popular way is to > have a line of dashes or "Minus signs" printed on the plastic sleeve > around the barrel of the part. > > It may be that the painted terminal is the plus side, but I can't be > sure. I would have more confidence if it were red rather than black. > > If you can send me a picture I will be glad to look at it. I need to > see both the top and side views including perhaps all sides. > > Good luck, > > Paul > > At 02:14 PM 7/1/2006, you wrote: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" > > > > >Gents, > > > >I'm wiring my Rotax 912 and I have the above capacitor. I > can't understand > >the markings on the two terminals. one of the terminals has > a dab of black > >paint on it and the other is clear. Can someone tell me > what the polarity > >of these two terminals is/are? > > > >Many thanks, > > > >Tommy Walker in Alabama > > > >Do Not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > Paul Mulwitz > 32013 NE Dial Road > Camas, WA 98607 > --------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:31 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ratchet Tiedowns Ratchet TiedownsDave, virtually any kind of rig that will tighten incrementally, and will not scratch the metal, will do. The real key is to insert a (padded) 2x4 or equivalent so that you lay the aluminum down evenly along the span. For an experiment, you can tighten down at one end (very gently) and watch how everything suddenly goes crooked. For the wing I used 2 eight-footers under either 4 or 5 straps, I forget which. It's not as difficult as the book implies. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair It's canopy time ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave VanLanen To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 5:46 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Ratchet Tiedowns I need some advice on ratchet tiedowns for the stabilizer skin and wing skins on the XL. For the stabilizer skin, the Assembly Guide recommends five 12' endless ratchet tiedowns (#11699) from Highland. For the wings, the Assembly Guide recommends McMaster Carr 12' 1-piece ratchet straps (#8842T17), and does not recommend the number needed. Is there any reason I can't use the same straps for both the stabilizer and wings? How many will I need for the wings? Can I use the two-piece style, since I can't seem to find the one-piece style locally in the correct length? Any help would be appreciated. Dave Van Lanen XL - stabilizer ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:10 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls John, I found half-inch nylon to be hideously expensive, and teflon in that thickness pretty rare, but there are alternatives. At your local Ace Hardware, try the Joyce Chen cutting board in their housewares section. I got a 9x12 polyethylene cutting board, half-inch thick, for under $10. It cuts very nice on a bandsaw, and is as slick as nylon. Makes good cable fairleads, too, if you don't mind cutting it down to a thinner profile. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hines To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 11:17 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls Guy, I'm beginning to scratch build my fuselage and have a few questions. I'm not a welder (at least not a good one) so I need to purchase some parts already made. The rudder pedals come with the fuselage kit and not the controls kit. How much does ZAC charge for the rudder pedals? Also, where do I get the nylon to make the bearing? I checked aircraft spruce and didn't see any. I guess if I buy the pedals from ZAC it comes with the nylon but there are other areas that call for nylon. Do most scratch builders purchase controls or fabricate them? On the homebuilt help DVD about scratch building they mention a hardware kit but of course don't mention a price. I don't see it anywhere on ZAC's website. Sorry for rambling on. I've been staring at plans all night and I'm starting to see double. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, John www.johnsplane.com Do not archive John R. Hines IT Manager John.Hines@craftontull.com Office: 479-878-2449 Mobile: 479-366-4783 Fax: 479-631-6224 www.craftontull.com 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 =B7Rogers, AR 72756 Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:22 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff For crosswind landings, do you always land crab into the wind. Slipping with a wing low into the cross wind is easier than decrabbing just before touchdown as well as the forward view is better. Also, Sebastion Heintz has told me the 701 slips very well to lose altitude without flaps. Chuck D. N701TX ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian kissinger To: Matronics Post Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:05 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Thanks everyone for their inputs on flying, slips, etc. Like building our planes and living our lives I hope we all do it as safe as possible but have fun. Paul I agree with your comments and in my Luscombe I fly close patterns & sometimes have almost full rudder in a slip depending on the situation. Slips are fun and look cool! But a taildragger with no flaps is much different from a 701. As far as the 701 goes I can only go from what Roger at the factory told me and that was, "it's not recommended to slip the 701 by the designer." And I believe he said it's because of the increased side loads it puts on the airframe. Can we slip a 701...sure...and in an emergency situation where I had one shot at a landing strip I would. I only put this information out on the list as that....information. It's your airplane...slip it or don't slip it....your decision. As another CFI mentioned on the list...don't get too slow in a slip or you risk entering a stall or spin at a low altitude....bad situation. Practice at altitude first. Roger's technique is what I would consider an advanced technique with having a low power setting to get the descent rate you want (almost a stall) then adding power close to the ground. Look at "Stick and Rudder" chapter 14 for an explanation of the principles of why this works. Make sure you are comfortable with basic flying maneuvers, takeoffs, landings, etc before you try what I mention above. Many of us have not flown in years and need to focus on the basics. Set personal minimums for yourself, weather, etc and stick to them. Have fun and be safe. Cheers, Brian www.brainsflight.com do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:23 AM PST US From: "Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Zenith-List: Great tool - Cheap Pirce List . . . While at Harbor Freight to get something else, I impulse bought a "Magnet / Mirror Pickup Tool" for $7 plus change. It has a handle from which a rod telescopes 27" out. There is an attaching sleeve like an air hose connection onto which you can mount one of three mirrors, a magnifying glass, or one of 2 magnets (all supplied). Included in the handle is a light which goes out parallel to the rod and reflects off the mirror onto the work being inspected. They even include 2 batteries. I'm doing the fus right now and there are many instances when I need to look on the backside of the vertical L's to check the rivet alignment. I wish I had this tool when I was building the wings. Should be good also for looking inside fuel tanks. Robert Schoenberger 701 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:23 AM PST US From: Dan Lykowski Subject: Zenith-List: Arlington --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Lykowski Was there ever a consensus on when/where for Arlington? Dan Lykowski CH601XL __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:15 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Hi Chuck, I am not sure whether your question was for me, but I will answer it anyway. My default method of handling crosswind landings is to use the slip method. I keep the runway centerline pointing toward my airplane with ailerons and keep the nose pointing down the runway with rudder. I do this with power off in most cases. The two exceptions to the power off approach are: When operating at large airports where it is important to stay fast in the traffic pattern (this can include instrument approaches and straight in approaches) so I don't cause problems for the heavy planes landing behind me; and when the crosswind is too high for this approach to work. I don't really like the crab approach, but that is probably just a matter of habit. The crab approach works just fine and I can perform it if I choose to do so. I think it works because the wind is usually much lower at the ground than when clear of any ground effects. I don't fly planes with huge wing spans and probably never will, so that issue is moot for me. For some reason I am not particularly surprised Sebastian Heintz would say something completely different from what Roger said. I don't have a 701, so it is not a big issue for me. I would probably pay more attention to Roger since my experience with him is much more positive than my experience with Sebastian which has been universally negative. In the 701 slip case, I would certainly follow the advice of those listers who suggested practicing the maneuver at altitude before using it for landing. Happy landings, Paul XL fuselage do not archive >For crosswind landings, do you always land crab into the >wind. Slipping with a wing low into the cross wind is easier than >decrabbing just before touchdown as well as the forward view is better. > >Also, Sebastion Heintz has told me the 701 slips very well to lose >altitude without flaps. > >Chuck D. >N701TX - ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:29 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Tony Bingelis' books/ STICK AND RUDDER My instructor (12K hours) put us through spin recovery on my fifth lesson, and slips are praticed every time we work on short field landings. Avoided? Perhaps if you're going to a flight 'school' that's more worried about insurance premiums than teaching you to fly safely... Bill Naumuk wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" J- I speak only from my own experiences with newly minted CFIs. After shooting a number of the current textbook's landings with one, he said "Make a landing however you want". So I did the old WWII "Tight to the field" pattern. Turned to final (Of course) high and he said "You're too high, you'll never make it". Went into a slip and he said "Are you trying to kill us- you're cross controlled!" Don't know how it is where you're from, but around our area, slips and spins are maneuvers to be avoided. Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:44 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jsimons2" > > Hmmmm, maybe I should give the book back to my brother in law. He had it > from his flight instruction many years ago and loaned it to me since I > want to get my PPL. Better yet, I'll go ahead and read it and perhaps get > kicked out of flight school. LOL [Laughing] > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44156#44156 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:49 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Fwd: Zenith-List: Fuel pump puzzle --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Test test test... no response yet... Anybody here using Facet pumps? > > Good morning! > > I recently discovered that my fuel pumps are less > efficient in flight. Fuel pressure (which is > measured > at the gascolator) gets down to ONE psi. > > I have one pump at each wing tank (Fred, I'm not > sucking fuel :-) I also have a third pump at the > firewall. > > Performance is the same with both the left and right > pumps. I feel the pressure is a tad higher when > using > the firewall pump. > > I did a test on the ground. Fuel flow is exactly > the > same from the 3 pumps and is same as new pumps (25 > gal/hr). Fuel pressure on the ground is normal (5 > psi > per pump approx). > > Anybody would know why I don't get the usual 3-5 psi > in flight? (now it is more like 1 to 3) > > Yesterday, as a workaround, I used the firewall pump > in conjunction with the wing pumps (firewall pump is > in series) and I got 4-6 psi. > > Michel > PS: the pumps I use are the Facet 40108 pumps. The > wing pumps have approx 200 hours of use each. > Firewall pump is much less solicitated. ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:28 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Gear Support Amen to that. This re-inforces the rule, "Read ahead, WAY ahead." Read your ENTIRE assembly guide AND all your prints before doing any work, and you'll save yourself a huge headache in the future. I lucked out in that I first assembled my 601XL virtually in 3D CAD. Anything that didn't fit so well, or protruded through another part un-naturally, could be trimmed or adjusted prior laser cutting. One note though, some of the parts should not be trimmed prior to assembly, as each aircraft is going to be unique. I may need to trim 2mm, where you may need only 1mm or less in certain places. Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Another point: It really irritates me that now I am told that I must trim the end of the gear channel 2 or 3 mm to clear the weld on the gear support bracket. It would be a major problem, at this point, to take the gear channel out of the assembly to do this trimming. If you can still hold the gear channel in your hand, I would suggest that you do this trimming before the channel is "buried" in the fuselage! Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:46 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Paul, Actually my note was for Brian Kissinger. Like you, I prefer to keep on the airplane fuselage lined up with the runway (side slip) and when the wind requires it, I land on one rear main to keep from drifting sideways. I may send a note to ZAC about a forward slip in the 701. Chuck D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Hi Chuck, I am not sure whether your question was for me, but I will answer it anyway. My default method of handling crosswind landings is to use the slip method. I keep the runway centerline pointing toward my airplane with ailerons and keep the nose pointing down the runway with rudder. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:38 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com) is a good source for Nylon 6/6, as well as aluminum extrusion and other materials for your XL. They're not as cheap as some of the others, but everything is in one place and almost always stock. The Nylon mentioned below is part #8674K35 and sells for $14.51 for 24 inches of the stuff. paulrod36@msn.com wrote: @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-compose } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } John, I found half-inch nylon to be hideously expensive, and teflon in that thickness pretty rare, but there are alternatives. At your local Ace Hardware, try the Joyce Chen cutting board in their housewares section. I got a 9x12 polyethylene cutting board, half-inch thick, for under $10. It cuts very nice on a bandsaw, and is as slick as nylon. Makes good cable fairleads, too, if you don't mind cutting it down to a thinner profile. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hines To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 11:17 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls Guy, Im beginning to scratch build my fuselage and have a few questions. Im not a welder (at least not a good one) so I need to purchase some parts already made. The rudder pedals come with the fuselage kit and not the controls kit. How much does ZAC charge for the rudder pedals? Also, where do I get the nylon to make the bearing? I checked aircraft spruce and didnt see any. I guess if I buy the pedals from ZAC it comes with the nylon but there are other areas that call for nylon. Do most scratch builders purchase controls or fabricate them? On the homebuilt help DVD about scratch building they mention a hardware kit but of course dont mention a price. I dont see it anywhere on ZACs website. Sorry for rambling on. Ive been staring at plans all night and Im starting to see double. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, John www.johnsplane.com Do not archive John R. Hines IT Manager John.Hines@craftontull.com Office: 479-878-2449 Mobile: 479-366-4783 Fax: 479-631-6224 www.craftontull.com 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 Rogers, AR 72756 Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:59 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Hi Chuck, I think writing to ZAC on the slip question is a great idea. I would guess the kind of slip which may not be a good idea for the 701 is the deep cross controlled condition used to dump lots of altitude without gaining airspeed. I can't imagine it is inappropriate to do the mild version of a slip commonly used to deal with mild crosswind landings. Sometimes I wish it were easy to ask Chris Heintz questions like this rather than trying to get Sebastian or one of the other guys to really understand the question. Paul XL Fuselage do not archive >Paul, >Actually my note was for Brian Kissinger. >Like you, I prefer to keep on the airplane fuselage lined up with >the runway (side slip) and when the wind requires it, I land on one >rear main to keep from drifting sideways. I may send a note to ZAC >about a forward slip in the 701. >Chuck D. - ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:06 AM PST US From: "Dave and Jan Clay" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) I just made my rear wing channels today. Bent them with my trusty $75 bending brake. They turned out great. I'm going the 6 foot spliced route. If the good folks at Can Zac think it's OK, and Zen-Master Scott Laughlin thinks it's OK, and most importantly, if Chris Heintz thinks it's OK...then its OK with me. If anyone is interested I can email you step by step instructions (with photos) showing how I did this task. Dave Scratch building wings _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:06 AM PST US From: Ron Butterfield Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield Tom and Bren Henderson wrote: > McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com) is a good source for Nylon 6/6, as well as aluminum extrusion and other materials for your XL. They're not as cheap as some of the others, but everything is in one place and almost always stock. The Nylon mentioned below is part #8674K35 and sells for $14.51 for 24 inches of the stuff. They also have UHMW Polyethylene, which is significantly more slippery than Nylon, about as strong, and much cheaper. For example, part number 9721K31 is 1/2 x 2 x 12 pieces for $3.47. It also is available in a wide variety of sizes. If you search for just the material name, they have a very nice 'drill-down' feature which allows you to specify exactly the specifications you need. I've used them for years for hardware needs at work and their customer service has been second to none. -- Regards, RonB ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:26 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >They also have UHMW Polyethylene, which is significantly more >slippery than Nylon, about as strong, and much cheaper. For example, >part number 9721K31 is 1/2 x 2 x 12 pieces for $3.47. It also is >available in a wide variety of sizes. That is all true, but Nylon has a very high melting point compared to other plastics. I would use the Nylon or ask ZAC for approval to use a cheaper material. While Nylon is an expensive plastic, there is a reason why it is used for aircraft purposes. Paul XL Fuselage ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:48 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel pump puzzle --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin I am but I haven't seen any similar problem with my plane. It sounds like a fuel tank venting issue. That's the only thing I can think of offhand that would show these symptoms. On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Michel Therrien wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > Test test test... no response yet... > > Anybody here using Facet pumps? > > >> >> Good morning! >> >> I recently discovered that my fuel pumps are less >> efficient in flight. Fuel pressure (which is >> measured >> at the gascolator) gets down to ONE psi. >> -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:28 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff I have had little luck with the "kick it straight" method and also slip and if required land on the upwind wheel. If one were to be a little hot and kicked it straight and then found the aircraft floating a little in ground effect with the "kick it straight" method I expect one would soon find the runway sliding off to one side. AMHIK. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Deiterich To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Paul, Actually my note was for Brian Kissinger. Like you, I prefer to keep on the airplane fuselage lined up with the runway (side slip) and when the wind requires it, I land on one rear main to keep from drifting sideways. I may send a note to ZAC about a forward slip in the 701. Chuck D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Hi Chuck, I am not sure whether your question was for me, but I will answer it anyway. My default method of handling crosswind landings is to use the slip method. I keep the runway centerline pointing toward my airplane with ailerons and keep the nose pointing down the runway with rudder. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:11 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Arlington --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" Someone said Thursday afternoon. I'll be there. I guess if we check in at the Zenith display maybe we can all hook up there. Dave in Salem ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:04 AM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Lykowski > > > Was there ever a consensus on when/where for > Arlington? > > Dan Lykowski > CH601XL > > __________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:27 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" If you'd like me to post the step by step on my site, send them to me and I'll put em' up... Thanks, Randy ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 2:26 PM >I just made my rear wing channels today. Bent them with my trusty $75 > bending brake. They turned out great. I'm going the 6 foot spliced route. > If > the good folks at Can Zac think it's OK, and Zen-Master Scott Laughlin > thinks it's OK, and most importantly, if Chris Heintz thinks it's > OK...then > its OK with me. > > If anyone is interested I can email you step by step instructions (with > photos) showing how I did this task. > > Dave > Scratch building wings > > _________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:53 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees I have been following the slip/crab/flaps/no flaps subject with a lot of interest. I fly a 601HDS taildragger out of a short turf strip and it's a no brainer to slip to lose altitude- not because I'm showing off, but because of no flaps and high obstacles at each end. The caveat every poster mentions with whatever his/her best method of losing altitude is to avoid a "coffin corner" edge-of-the-envelope stall and possible spin entry. The Lift Reserve Indicator that Scott Laughlin has helped provide many of us with has sure taken the guesswork out of this question for me. I put it right on the top of my panel and it will tell me what the lift is doing at any speed or altitude or power setting. I strongly reccomend it if you are going to do slips and crabs or just want to nail your landing speeds in any condition. It will even convince a newbie CFI that you have lift and control of the plane. Ron N601TD 140 hours Paul Mulwitz wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > I think writing to ZAC on the slip question is a great idea. > > I would guess the kind of slip which may not be a good idea for the > 701 is the deep cross controlled condition used to dump lots of > altitude without gaining airspeed. I can't imagine it is > inappropriate to do the mild version of a slip commonly used to deal > with mild crosswind landings. -----------snip------- > > > Paul > XL Fuselage > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:44 PM PST US From: "Paul Tipton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Slips I hate to get into this, because there are many more people out there with much more experience than I have. From my limited (100 hours) experience. Slips work very well in the 701. I have not needed slips and full flaps or any flaps for that matter. If you are that high, go around. The flaps are very effective, but your closing speed to the ground will make you pucker. Your flare and/or the application of power becomes critical. The reducing power works well too, if you remember to keep your speed up. The prop acts as a big air brake and (the key statement) you have no inertia. The best statement I have read about the 701, is if you pull power on landing, be prepared to land and park at the same time. The lack of inertia and powerful engine also means the throttle gets almost instant results. The good part is you get instant results... the bad part is you get instant results. Over control can be a problem. It is very easy to fly the approach speed with a constant throttle to the runway. Slips work very well to alter your glide slope and you never have to bother your throttle or speed. It does not fly like a Cessna, Piper, Beech or anything else I have ever flown. It does not float. The caveat with all this info is I fly a 701 with the 912 ULS. It is a great combination. I cannot attest to any other combination. I differ to anyone with more experience. I learn something different every time I go up. Every landing is different. There are an infinite amount of combinations you can try. Some will work better than others with this plane. All I can say to the people that are not flying yet... it is worth it. 321PT ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:52 PM PST US From: "messydeer" Subject: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II --> Zenith-List message posted by: "messydeer" Hi! I spent most of yesterday etching my VS parts with Alumiprep. I draped a vinyl shower curtain across my table w/ 2x4's underneath around the edges. Things went pretty well. Aluminum fizzed and turned sorta white. After draining and rinsing the drape well, I put in Alodine, 1:2 w/ water as suggested in their literature. Used cheesecloth to drape over areas that stuck out above the bath and kept it pretty moist. I was dissappointed with the results. Even after leaving parts in their for 15 minutes, there was little color change. I tackled it again today and added straight Alodine 1201 to the old bath, making the solution maybe 1:1. That seemed to do the trick. Only took 5 minutes for the desired color change. But I did notice the 2nd batch of parts took longer to change. I might also mention the original 1:2 bath was recycled from my first session a month ago. Although Henkel says you can re-use the solution, it seems fresh Alodine does a much better job. But even with the fresh concentrated solution, I still got some patchiness. I did prep well: dish soap solution sprayed on and scoured w/ scotchbrite; rinse w/ water; wipe w/ lacquer thinner; kept fingerprints off parts. Right now I've sprayed all with the first coat of zinc chromate (tempo cans). Alodine is supposed to help promote adhesion of the primer. Given the patchiness of its coat and the hassle with its application, I'm considering just acid etching and then zinc chromate without Alodine. How does this sound to you zinc chromaters? Thanks, Dan[/b] -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44570#44570 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:50 PM PST US From: "Christopher Smith" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) You know I will as well Dave...Please send. On 7/3/06, Dave and Jan Clay wrote: > > I just made my rear wing channels today. Bent them with my trusty $75 > bending brake. They turned out great. I'm going the 6 foot spliced route. > If > the good folks at Can Zac think it's OK, and Zen-Master Scott Laughlin > thinks it's OK, and most importantly, if Chris Heintz thinks it's > OK...then > its OK with me. > > If anyone is interested I can email you step by step instructions (with > photos) showing how I did this task. > > Dave > Scratch building wings > > _________________________________________________________________ > > -- Christopher W. E. Smith fly1m1 http://ch-601xl.com ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:13 PM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder I never land my 701 with any power on final. Most of the time I use no power from the downwind threshold. Occasionally I will have to add a touch of power to make the runway, but only if I am to far from the runway on downwind, or there is a tailwind on downwind that I have miscalculated. Yes, it drops fast and the window to flare is small but it is not hard to master. Ron Lee Tucson, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Schoenberger To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder In very light planes such as the 701, isn't the power on to landing due to the lack of inertia of these planes? Robert Schoenberger 701 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder Hi Brian, Thank you for your post on the crosswind landing issue. Your comprehensive coverage of this topic leads me to ask you for further information and opinion. First is the issue of performing a forward slip landing with flaps (or in the case of the 701 with slats). I think I have heard several instructors suggest that either flaps or a slip is appropriate for losing extra altitude on final approach but not both. I don't know why both would be inappropriate, but I have never done the slip with flaps because of that comment The kind of slip I am talking about in this case is not the light one to compensate for a crosswind but the deep one used to dump altitude. The other issue is one that has bothered me ever since contemplating flying again after some 15 years on the ground. It seems popular today for pilots to land light planes with power all the way to touchdown. I know this is common practice with multiengine planes, but in the old days I was taught to make the final approach with power off (unless there was a good reason to do otherwise like trying to stay ahead of heavy traffic at high use airports). I think the power off approach works just fine in most cases and also gives the pilot plenty of practice for dead stick landings in case of engine failure. I don't know of any advantage of using power on all approaches other than it makes them a little easier to perform. Sadly, there seem to be too many owners of light aircraft who come to a bad end when they fail to make a good approach after an engine failure and hit the only tree around or fail to clear the final hurdle. In Roger's case, I can't help but wonder what will happen if his "Behind the curve" dumping of altitude is punctuated by a failure of the engine to slow the descent as you described. I have heard of doing that sort of approach with power on, but never with power off. The power on version is somewhat like a helicopter landing and allows for crazy pilots to make incredibly short ground rolls, but is not for the uninitiated or weak of heart. I would love to hear you comments on the above issues. Best regards, Paul XL fuselage I not a very good builder and I am not much better as a pilot. However I do have a CFI rating, thousands of flying hours, flown several different taildraggers, currently own/fly a Luscombe, taught some people how to fly and given several tailwheel endorsements. I haven't killed myself, wrecked, or groundlooped any airplanes....yet. I wholeheartedly agree with the endorsement of Stick & Rudder. It's an essential book for every pilot. The first time I read part 1 "Wings" and Chapter 1 "How a Wing is Flown" it cleared up so much confusion in my previous 16 years of flying (including Air Force training). Get it, read it, re-read it. As far as crosswind landings go...I've seen 2 main schools of thought. What I like is what I typically teach in a taildragger....wing low into the wind to stop cross track....opposite rudder as needed to keep the nose pointed straight down the runway. Other pilots like to maintain a crab into the wind and then take it out when they are close to the ground. There can be a heated debate on both sides of this topic. As far as the 701 goes, I flew with Roger at the factory again a few weeks ago and he said the plane is recommended not to be slipped (by Chris Heintz). He demonstrated to me in a power off/nose high configuration that the airplane will come down quickly and then added power as we got closer to the ground for a soft landing. That was Roger's technique. I know many on this list have been flying their planes for hundreds of hours and will probably have their own techniques that work. Thanks everyone for sharing information on this wonderful builder's list...I am glad Jon survived his crash and I am glad our airplanes are designed to take a beating. Cheers, Brian "Brain" Kissinger www.brainsflight.com ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:50 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II I live in the wet jungles of Oregon, and very few builders here are going to the trouble of Etching, Alodine, and Zinc. Nearly everyone is using Zinc Chromate on mating surfaces, but many of those builders are just using a scotchbrite pad to rough the surface prior to spraying. With more rainy and wet days than sunny, the aircraft are still exhibiting very good corrosion resistance when using 6061-T6. Note that the important part of that sentence is the "T6-6061" part. If you're using a less corrosion resistant type of aluminum (2024-T3 is common) you'll want to do all you can to prolong the life of the aircraft. 6061-T6 will still benefit from the Etch, Alodine, Zinc process, but already exhibits excellent corrosion resistance (due in part to being artificially aged during the production porocess). messydeer wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "messydeer" Hi! I spent most of yesterday etching my VS parts with Alumiprep. I draped a vinyl shower curtain across my table w/ 2x4's underneath around the edges. Things went pretty well. Aluminum fizzed and turned sorta white. After draining and rinsing the drape well, I put in Alodine, 1:2 w/ water as suggested in their literature. Used cheesecloth to drape over areas that stuck out above the bath and kept it pretty moist. I was dissappointed with the results. Even after leaving parts in their for 15 minutes, there was little color change. I tackled it again today and added straight Alodine 1201 to the old bath, making the solution maybe 1:1. That seemed to do the trick. Only took 5 minutes for the desired color change. But I did notice the 2nd batch of parts took longer to change. I might also mention the original 1:2 bath was recycled from my first session a month ago. Although Henkel says you can re-use the solution, it seems fresh Alodine does a much better job. But even with the fresh concentrated solution, I still got some patchiness. I did prep well: dish soap solution sprayed on and scoured w/ scotchbrite; rinse w/ water; wipe w/ lacquer thinner; kept fingerprints off parts. Right now I've sprayed all with the first coat of zinc chromate (tempo cans). Alodine is supposed to help promote adhesion of the primer. Given the patchiness of its coat and the hassle with its application, I'm considering just acid etching and then zinc chromate without Alodine. How does this sound to you zinc chromaters? Thanks, Dan[/b] -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44570#44570 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:08 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Wow Dave! That picture looks like you came to my garage and cleaned it up and took that picture! Mine used to be that clean but somehow it got messy and I can't bring myself to stop and re-organize it before I finish my airplane. Your rear channel bend looks great. I think the spliced channel is stronger than the 12' version since you reinforce the channel right where you drill the big hole for the aileron control rod. Chris H. is good with it and I have a sketch from him to prove it. Just to be clear, the splice is a mini-channel that fits inside the flanges of the channel, not just a plate. It's a tricky bend to get just right so get some scrap pieces ready for trial and error. Great work, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Wishing my garage was as clean as Dave's. DO NOT ARCHIVE --- Dave and Jan Clay wrote: > I just made my rear wing channels today. Bent them > with my trusty $75 > bending brake. They turned out great. I'm going the > 6 foot spliced route. If > the good folks at Can Zac think it's OK, __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:13 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scratch build question - Fuselage & controls The only place I know that you can call at 5 pm and still get material ordered by the next day AM!!!!!! And that is their normal service. Ron said it best " their service has been second to none" Bob Spudis Do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 2:30:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rbutterfield@mebtel.net writes: Tom and Bren Henderson wrote: > McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com) is a good source for Nylon 6/6 I've used them for years for hardware needs at work and their customer service has been second to none. -- Regards, RonB ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:14 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Ron, How long is your field and how high are your obstacles?? I have a 1300 ft grass strip with 150 ft power lines at one end and 50 ft trees at the other. Other runway is 700 ft with 30 ft trees on takeoff side. I was just wondering what your take off and landing requirements are. Bob Spudis N701ZX 701/912S do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 3:36:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rdewees@mindspring.com writes: I have been following the slip/crab/flaps/no flaps subject with a lot of interest. I fly a 601HDS taildragger out of a short turf strip and it's a no brainer to slip to lose altitude- not because I'm showing off, but because of no flaps and high obstacles at each end. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:44 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II Dan, Not to get another scotchbrite and primer debate going, I just used the scotchbrite and cleaned with lacquer thinner and sprayed with self etching primer and have had great results. Bob Spudis N701ZX 701/912S do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 3:49:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, messydeer@yahoo.com writes: Hi! I spent most of yesterday etching my VS parts with Alumiprep. I draped a vinyl shower curtain across my table w/ 2x4's underneath around the edges. Things went pretty well. Aluminum fizzed and turned sorta white. After draining and rinsing the drape well, I put in Alodine, 1:2 w/ water as suggested in their literature. Used cheesecloth to drape over areas that stuck out above the bath and kept it pretty moist. I was dissappointed with the results. Even after leaving parts in their for 15 minutes, there was little color change. I tackled it again today and added straight Alodine 1201 to the old bath, making the solution maybe 1:1. That seemed to do the trick. Only took 5 minutes for the desired color change. But I did notice the 2nd batch of parts took longer to change. I might also mention the original 1:2 bath was recycled from my first session a month ago. Although Henkel says you can re-use the solution, it seems fresh Alodine does a much better job. But even with the fresh concentrated solution, I still got some patchiness. I did prep well: dish soap solution sprayed on and scoured w/ scotchbrite; rinse w/ water; wipe w/ lacquer thinner; kept fingerprints off parts. Right now I've sprayed all with the first coat of zinc chromate (tempo cans). Alodine is supposed to help promote adhesion of the primer. Given the patchiness of its coat and the hassle with its application, I'm considering just acid etching and then zinc chromate without Alodine. How does this sound to you zinc chromaters? Thanks, Dan[/b] -------- Dan ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:34 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying techniques and Stick & Rudder Ron What kind of sink rate are you getting, what is your glide speed , are you using flaps and what type/size runway are you using? I usually keep power in right to touchdown except when I fly over my 150' power line approach to my grass strip. Bob Spudis N701ZX In a message dated 7/3/2006 4:31:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rlee468@comcast.net writes: I never land my 701 with any power on final. Most of the time I use no power from the downwind threshold. Occasionally I will have to add a touch of power to make the runway, but only if I am to far from the runway on downwind, or there is a tailwind on downwind that I have miscalculated. Yes, it drops fast and the window to flare is small but it is not hard to master. Ron Lee Tucson, AZ ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:09 AM In very light planes such as the 701, isn't the power on to landing due to the lack of inertia of these planes? Robert Schoenberger 701 do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:33 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel pump puzzle --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I noticed when I fueled up at an airport recently (with 91 octane mogas). The performance of the pump (the fueling pump) was very poor for the first 20 seconds (fuel was flowing very slowly). The man mentioned something about fueling be slow when gasoline temperature is high (due to vapor, or whatever). As a matter of fact, as soon as cool gasoline entered the pump, it became faster. Could this be the same type of problem? I suppose the gas is fairly hot in those alum wing fuel tanks. Any way to improve this? Michel --- Bryan Martin wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > > I am but I haven't seen any similar problem with my > plane. It sounds > like a fuel tank venting issue. That's the only > thing I can think of > offhand that would show these symptoms. > > On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Michel Therrien wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > > > > Test test test... no response yet... > > > > Anybody here using Facet pumps? > > > > > >> > >> Good morning! > >> > >> I recently discovered that my fuel pumps are less > >> efficient in flight. Fuel pressure (which is > >> measured > >> at the gascolator) gets down to ONE psi. > >> > > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:20 PM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II Hello Bob and Listers: I used the scotchbrite/lacquer thinner/rattle can approach for the horizontal stabilizer, elevator, flaps, and ailerons with acceptable results. I have two questions for everyone: 1) The scotchbrite pad thing seems to take forever by hand. I'm using a plain old scotchbrite pad (number and color to remain nameless so as not to incite another Scotchbrite debate) and rubbing the parts to take the shine off them. Is there an easier way? A wheel or something to make the job move along? 2) I've just started priming the wing ribs using a scotchbrite/lacquer thinner/two-part epoxy primer. WOW - this stuff REALLY sticks !!!! I like it - but it's a lot of work. Is anyone else using a two-part epoxy primer? Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601xl N458XL (reserved) do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 5:14:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: Dan, Not to get another scotchbrite and primer debate going, I just used the scotchbrite and cleaned with lacquer thinner and sprayed with self etching primer and have had great results. Bob Spudis N701ZX 701/912S do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 3:49:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, messydeer@yahoo.com writes: Hi! I spent most of yesterday etching my VS parts with Alumiprep. I draped a vinyl shower curtain across my table w/ 2x4's underneath around the edges. Things went pretty well. Aluminum fizzed and turned sorta white. After draining and rinsing the drape well, I put in Alodine, 1:2 w/ water as suggested in their literature. Used cheesecloth to drape over areas that stuck out above the bath and kept it pretty moist. I was dissappointed with the results. Even after leaving parts in their for 15 minutes, there was little color change. I tackled it again today and added straight Alodine 1201 to the old bath, making the solution maybe 1:1. That seemed to do the trick. Only took 5 minutes for the desired color change. But I did notice the 2nd batch of parts took longer to change. I might also mention the original 1:2 bath was recycled from my first session a month ago. Although Henkel says you can re-use the solution, it seems fresh Alodine does a much better job. But even with the fresh concentrated solution, I still got some patchiness. I did prep well: dish soap solution sprayed on and scoured w/ scotchbrite; rinse w/ water; wipe w/ lacquer thinner; kept fingerprints off parts. Right now I've sprayed all with the first coat of zinc chromate (tempo cans). Alodine is supposed to help promote adhesion of the primer. Given the patchiness of its coat and the hassle with its application, I'm considering just acid etching and then zinc chromate without Alodine. How does this sound to you zinc chromaters? Thanks, Dan[/b] -------- Dan ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:31 PM PST US From: "Wade Jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rear Wing Channels (Scratch Builder Question) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Wade Jones" Great looking work Dave ,your brake design must be working well .Building the brake is my next task .Please e-mail me the rear wing channel photos .Thanks Wade ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 1:26 PM >I just made my rear wing channels today. Bent them with my trusty $75 > bending brake. They turned out great. I'm going the 6 foot spliced route. > If > the good folks at Can Zac think it's OK, and Zen-Master Scott Laughlin > thinks it's OK, and most importantly, if Chris Heintz thinks it's > OK...then > its OK with me. > > If anyone is interested I can email you step by step instructions (with > photos) showing how I did this task. > > Dave > Scratch building wings > > _________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:32 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II 3M makes a Roloc disk for use with a 90-degree die grinder. You can get it in any flavor of standard scotch-brite pad. Be carefull with your RPMS. It will eat right through your .020 skins if you're too high! Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: Hello Bob and Listers: I used the scotchbrite/lacquer thinner/rattle can approach for the horizontal stabilizer, elevator, flaps, and ailerons with acceptable results. I have two questions for everyone: 1) The scotchbrite pad thing seems to take forever by hand. I'm using a plain old scotchbrite pad (number and color to remain nameless so as not to incite another Scotchbrite debate) and rubbing the parts to take the shine off them. Is there an easier way? A wheel or something to make the job move along? 2) I've just started priming the wing ribs using a scotchbrite/lacquer thinner/two-part epoxy primer. WOW - this stuff REALLY sticks !!!! I like it - but it's a lot of work. Is anyone else using a two-part epoxy primer? Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601xl N458XL (reserved) do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 5:14:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: Dan, Not to get another scotchbrite and primer debate going, I just used the scotchbrite and cleaned with lacquer thinner and sprayed with self etching primer and have had great results. Bob Spudis N701ZX 701/912S do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 3:49:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, messydeer@yahoo.com writes: Hi! I spent most of yesterday etching my VS parts with Alumiprep. I draped a vinyl shower curtain across my table w/ 2x4's underneath around the edges. Things went pretty well. Aluminum fizzed and turned sorta white. After draining and rinsing the drape well, I put in Alodine, 1:2 w/ water as suggested in their literature. Used cheesecloth to drape over areas that stuck out above the bath and kept it pretty moist. I was dissappointed with the results. Even after leaving parts in their for 15 minutes, there was little color change. I tackled it again today and added straight Alodine 1201 to the old bath, making the solution maybe 1:1. That seemed to do the trick. Only took 5 minutes for the desired color change. But I did notice the 2nd batch of parts took longer to change. I might also mention the original 1:2 bath was recycled from my first session a month ago. Although Henkel says you can re-use the solution, it seems fresh Alodine does a much better job. But even with the fresh concentrated solution, I still got some patchiness. I did prep well: dish soap solution sprayed on and scoured w/ scotchbrite; rinse w/ water; wipe w/ lacquer thinner; kept fingerprints off parts. Right now I've sprayed all with the first coat of zinc chromate (tempo cans). Alodine is supposed to help promote adhesion of the primer. Given the patchiness of its coat and the hassle with its application, I'm considering just acid etching and then zinc chromate without Alodine. How does this sound to you zinc chromaters? Thanks, Dan[/b] -------- Dan ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:27 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: RE : Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa I use a rubber disk with velcro hooks, meant for sand paper. Scotch brite (of any colour) will stick to it. The disk is some 5" in diameter, so it won't reach the tight spots. But it will speed up the larger stratches of Al... Carlos --- Crvsecretary@aol.com a crit : > > Hello Bob and Listers: > > I used the scotchbrite/lacquer thinner/rattle can approach for the > horizontal stabilizer, elevator, flaps, and ailerons with acceptable results. I have > two questions for everyone: > > 1) The scotchbrite pad thing seems to take forever by hand. I'm using a > plain old scotchbrite pad (number and color to remain nameless so as not to > incite another Scotchbrite debate) and rubbing the parts to take the shine off > them. Is there an easier way? A wheel or something to make the job move along? > > 2) I've just started priming the wing ribs using a scotchbrite/lacquer > thinner/two-part epoxy primer. WOW - this stuff REALLY sticks !!!! I like it - > but it's a lot of work. Is anyone else using a two-part epoxy primer? > > > Tracy Smith > Naugatuck, CT > 601xl N458XL (reserved) __________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:48 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II Afix the scotchbrite pad to a vibrating or random orbital sander... This will should help. Randy XL Wings - Plans Only http://www.n344rb.com Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Crvsecretary@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II Hello Bob and Listers: I used the scotchbrite/lacquer thinner/rattle can approach for the horizontal stabilizer, elevator, flaps, and ailerons with acceptable results. I have two questions for everyone: 1) The scotchbrite pad thing seems to take forever by hand. I'm using a plain old scotchbrite pad (number and color to remain nameless so as not to incite another Scotchbrite debate) and rubbing the parts to take the shine off them. Is there an easier way? A wheel or something to make the job move along? 2) I've just started priming the wing ribs using a scotchbrite/lacquer thinner/two-part epoxy primer. WOW - this stuff REALLY sticks !!!! I like it - but it's a lot of work. Is anyone else using a two-part epoxy primer? Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601xl N458XL (reserved) do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 5:14:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: Dan, Not to get another scotchbrite and primer debate going, I just used the scotchbrite and cleaned with lacquer thinner and sprayed with self etching primer and have had great results. Bob Spudis N701ZX 701/912S do not archive In a message dated 7/3/2006 3:49:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, messydeer@yahoo.com writes: Hi! I spent most of yesterday etching my VS parts with Alumiprep. I draped a vinyl shower curtain across my table w/ 2x4's underneath around the edges. Things went pretty well. Aluminum fizzed and turned sorta white. After draining and rinsing the drape well, I put in Alodine, 1:2 w/ water as suggested in their literature. Used cheesecloth to drape over areas that stuck out above the bath and kept it pretty moist. I was dissappointed with the results. Even after leaving parts in their for 15 minutes, there was little color change. I tackled it again today and added straight Alodine 1201 to the old bath, making the solution maybe 1:1. That seemed to do the trick. Only took 5 minutes for the desired color change. But I did notice the 2nd batch of parts took longer to change. I might also mention the original 1:2 bath was recycled from my first session a month ago. Although Henkel says you can re-use the solution, it seems fresh Alodine does a much better job. But even with the fresh concentrated solution, I still got some patchiness. I did prep well: dish soap solution sprayed on and scoured w/ scotchbrite; rinse w/ water; wipe w/ lacquer thinner; kept fingerprints off parts. Right now I've sprayed all with the first coat of zinc chromate (tempo cans). Alodine is supposed to help promote adhesion of the primer. Given the patchiness of its coat and the hassle with its application, I'm considering just acid etching and then zinc chromate without Alodine. How does this sound to you zinc chromaters? Thanks, Dan[/b] -------- Dan ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:48 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: Engine decisions getting easier --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Hi Guys, This month's Kit Planes Magazine was a real value. Frank Hinde wrote a very honest and candid article on the Stratus Subaru EA81 that was extremely well done. A BD5 was also featured with a Subaru EA81 that could have kept Jim Bede out of Bankruptcy. Also the $10K Rev Master 3000 was featured in the same magazine. When this engine gets into production, its price/performance will seriously eat into the Jabaru and Rotax market. Really worth while reading, especially those of you that haven't decided on an engine just yet. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:48 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Fitting Stratus/601 cowl I'm encouraged by the good responses to my cowl questions. Here is another: Is it best to assemble the two halves of the cowl on the work table and somehow clamp or cleco them together before fitting one or both to the fuselage? With the Stratus engine in place it isn't possible to fit the lower cowl to the fuselage without trimming it to clear the various "lumps" on the engine. Trimming the lower cowl seems to be a cut and fit sort of process. Also, it seems to be necessary to establish the position and slope of the upper cowl pretty early in the process. Any advice from those who have been there already? George Swinford ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:22 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Plans builder HELP!!! OK, I live in the desert! It is 100 miles to the nearest Taco Bell. I am 320 miles from my building buddy who is also building a 601XL. I am at a point in my fuselage where I need to flange my holes. The holes are cut, just needs flanged. I bought a 2 wheel flanging tool from Aircraft Tool Supply because Aircraft Spruce is back ordered. They said the company has been back ordered for some time now and the manufacture said it will be at least another month, so I bought this one. IT STINKS!!! It took me 30 minutes to mess up a perfectly good hole. It won't be seen, so that is the good news. I am wanting to build my center wing spar, but I have to flange the holes first and the front one can be seen if someone at a fly in looks hard enough. I have been all over town trying to find someone who can make these dye's for me and there just is no equipment here to do it. I don't care if they are made of silly putty!! Does anyone know someone who can make them, or does anyone have a set they would be willing to sell or rent to me. I am running out of things to do on the fuse now. I still have wings to build after the fu se!! I could continue using the tool I just bought, but I really hate using it. My building buddy already has a lot on his plate and needs his tools right now. We were neck and neck in the build, but he has long passed me. I looked at the Sonex site, but there's is smaller and I would rather stay with the plans. Any help would be appreciated. I work as a police officer and a correctional officer, so I don't have a lot of time to look for these specialty tools, especially in the middle of NOWHERE!!! I will take wood, metal, plastic, or even dried mud dye's right now. Thanks, Larry Husky Lakeview, OR Building Fuse, but thinking about building the engine instead!! ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:44 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine decisions getting easier --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> The article also includes Bill Clapp's fantastic Corvair powered KR-2 (complete firewall forward about $3,500). This William Wynne Corvair conversion is my choice for my 601XL. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 5:52 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > > > Hi Guys, > This month's Kit Planes Magazine was a real value. Frank Hinde wrote a > very honest and candid article on the Stratus Subaru EA81 that was > extremely well done. A BD5 was also featured with a Subaru EA81 that could > have kept Jim Bede out of Bankruptcy. Also the $10K Rev Master 3000 was > featured in the same magazine. When this engine gets into production, its > price/performance will seriously eat into the Jabaru and Rotax market. > Really worth while reading, especially those of you that haven't decided > on an engine just yet. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:10 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Did you do a water break test? Spray a little clean water on the prepared aluminium and it should coat the aluminium without any breaks in the water... Then it's ready for the Alodine. I've used Alodine several times without the splochyness you describe. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of messydeer > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 5:16 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "messydeer" > > Hi! > > I spent most of yesterday etching my VS parts with Alumiprep. > I draped a vinyl shower curtain across my table w/ 2x4's > underneath around the edges. Things went pretty well. > Aluminum fizzed and turned sorta white. > > After draining and rinsing the drape well, I put in Alodine, > 1:2 w/ water as suggested in their literature. Used > cheesecloth to drape over areas that stuck out above the bath > and kept it pretty moist. I was dissappointed with the > results. Even after leaving parts in their for 15 minutes, > there was little color change. > > I tackled it again today and added straight Alodine 1201 to > the old bath, making the solution maybe 1:1. That seemed to > do the trick. Only took 5 minutes for the desired color > change. But I did notice the 2nd batch of parts took longer > to change. I might also mention the original 1:2 bath was > recycled from my first session a month ago. Although Henkel > says you can re-use the solution, it seems fresh Alodine does > a much better job. > > But even with the fresh concentrated solution, I still got > some patchiness. I did prep well: dish soap solution sprayed > on and scoured w/ scotchbrite; rinse w/ water; wipe w/ > lacquer thinner; kept fingerprints off parts. > > Right now I've sprayed all with the first coat of zinc > chromate (tempo cans). Alodine is supposed to help promote > adhesion of the primer. Given the patchiness of its coat and > the hassle with its application, I'm considering just acid > etching and then zinc chromate without Alodine. How does this > sound to you zinc chromaters? > > Thanks, > Dan[/b] > > -------- > Dan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44570#44570 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:31 PM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sherman --- Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: > > Hello Bob and Listers: > > I used the scotchbrite/lacquer thinner/rattle can > approach for the > horizontal stabilizer, elevator, flaps, and ailerons > with acceptable results. I have > two questions for everyone: > > 1) The scotchbrite pad thing seems to take forever > by hand. I'm using a > plain old scotchbrite pad (number and color to > remain nameless so as not to > incite another Scotchbrite debate) and rubbing the > parts to take the shine off > them. Is there an easier way? A wheel or something > to make the job move along? > > 2) I've just started priming the wing ribs using a > scotchbrite/lacquer > thinner/two-part epoxy primer. WOW - this stuff > REALLY sticks !!!! I like it - > but it's a lot of work. Is anyone else using a > two-part epoxy primer? > > > Tracy Smith > Naugatuck, CT > 601xl N458XL (reserved) > do not archive > > > > Tracy. I used the two part epoxy on the entire airplane inside. Alumaprep/alodine then prime. Yes it was a lot of work. I let the alumaprep do all the work of dulling the surface. I mixed some 409 cleaner in with the full strength alumaprep to do two steps in one. I cleaned it with thinner first to get off the ink, then let the alumaprep do its thing. I know a lot of people say there is no need to go to all this work, that 6061 will outlast all of us. Maybe so, but I had a 1964 C-150 that was paper thin because of corrosion after thirty years and never by the ocean. Yeah I know it was 2024 not 6061. But the 2024 they use has an almost pure aluminum layer clad on it, this is way more corrosion resistant than 6061. Where did all that pure aluminum go? I figure that some new owner of my plane thirty years from now will look inside at no corrosion and say WOW did this guy really know how to build an airplane. Worth every extra hour I put into it. Although I must confess that I found a place called Pacific Coast Anodizing that did what the industry calls Chem-film, (alumaprep/alodine)that did all of both wing parts (ribs,skins,spars all little parts) for $75.00 and the entire fuse and tail parts for another $125.00 for me. I got them back individually wrapped in paper, picked up and delivered to my door. Not bad if you live in the central valley of California. Keep up the good work I think it is worth it. Mark S. 701/912S Paint booth built painting __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:17 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Zenith-List: flanging dies Larry When I built my 701, I made my flanging dies from plywood as per Chris H. plans. I used them for my 701, got permission from ZAC to use them on the 601 (plans called for slightly different size flanges) and my cousin is now using them for his 701. Simple to make, but take a little time. At the time (no expereince) it took me one day to make a male/female set, the second day I made two different sets.---------(now I could make them all in one day) I have friends who believe in overkill and think they have to be mechined from aluminum at a mechine shop----not so-- unless you are going into the airplane production business. Fritz -- Corvair, 601XL scratch builder, 90/90 LHusky@aol.com wrote: OK, I live in the desert! It is 100 miles to the nearest Taco Bell. I am 320 miles from my building buddy who is also building a 601XL. I am at a point in my fuselage where I need to flange my holes. The holes are cut, just needs flanged. I bought a 2 wheel flanging tool from Aircraft Tool Supply because Aircraft Spruce is back ordered. They said the company has been back ordered for some time now and the manufacture said it will be at least another month, so I bought this one. IT STINKS!!! It took me 30 minutes to mess up a perfectly good hole. It won't be seen, so that is the good news. I am wanting to build my center wing spar, but I have to flange the holes first and the front one can be seen if someone at a fly in looks hard enough. I have been all over town trying to find someone who can make these dye's for me and there just is no equipment here to do it. I don't care if they are made of silly putty!! Does anyone know someone who can make them, or does anyone have a set they would be willing to sell or rent to me. I am running out of things to do on the fuse now. I still have wings to build after the fuse!! I could continue using the tool I just bought, but I really hate using it. My building buddy already has a lot on his plate and needs his tools right now. We were neck and neck in the build, but he has long passed me. I looked at the Sonex site, but there's is smaller and I would rather stay with the plans. Any help would be appreciated. I work as a police officer and a correctional officer, so I don't have a lot of time to look for these specialty tools, especially in the middle of NOWHERE!!! I will take wood, metal, plastic, or even dried mud dye's right now. Thanks, Larry Husky Lakeview, OR Building Fuse, but thinking about building the engine instead!! __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:42 PM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Plans builder HELP!!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug I got stung by Spruce's backorder of the flanging tool too. I then noticed that the replacement wheels were made by Avery. A little bit of thought suggested that if the wheels were made by Avery, the tool must be too. I called Avery and the tool arrived in about four days. Exactly what was in the Spruce catalog. I don't know why the Spruce Goose is having so much trouble getting them. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch builder Working on Elevator do not archive __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:44 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: flanging dies Big Gee, Where did you get the plans for the plywood dies?? Thanks, Randy Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Big Gee To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:48 PM Subject: Zenith-List: flanging dies Larry When I built my 701, I made my flanging dies from plywood as per Chris H. plans. I used them for my 701, got permission from ZAC to use them on the 601 (plans called for slightly different size flanges) and my cousin is now using them for his 701. Simple to make, but take a little time. At the time (no expereince) it took me one day to make a male/female set, the second day I made two different sets.---------(now I could make them all in one day) I have friends who believe in overkill and think they have to be mechined from aluminum at a mechine shop----not so-- unless you are going into the airplane production business. Fritz -- Corvair, 601XL scratch builder, 90/90 LHusky@aol.com wrote: OK, I live in the desert! It is 100 miles to the nearest Taco Bell. I am 320 miles from my building buddy who is also building a 601XL. I am at a point in my fuselage where I need to flange my holes. The holes are cut, just needs flanged. I bought a 2 wheel flanging tool from Aircraft Tool Supply because Aircraft Spruce is back ordered. They said the company has been back ordered for some time now and the manufacture said it will be at least another month, so I bought this one. IT STINKS!!! It took me 30 minutes to mess up a perfectly good hole. It won't be seen, so that is the good news. I am wanting to build my center wing spar, but I have to flange the holes first and the front one can be seen if someone at a fly in looks hard enough. I have been all over town trying to find someone who can make these dye's for me and there just is no equipment here to do it. I don't care if they are made of silly putty!! Does anyone know someone who can make them, or does anyone have a set they would be willing to sell or rent to me. I am running out of things to do on the fuse now. I still have wings to build after the fuse!! I could continue using the tool I just bought, but I really hate using it. My building buddy already has a lot on his plate and needs his tools right now. We were neck and neck in the build, but he has long passed me. I looked at the Sonex site, but there's is smaller and I would rather stay with the plans. Any help would be appreciated. I work as a police officer and a correctional officer, so I don't have a lot of time to look for these specialty tools, especially in the middle of NOWHERE!!! I will take wood, metal, plastic, or even dried mud dye's right now. Thanks, ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:55 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fitting Stratus/601 cowl --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland George, The slope of the upper cowl is the first issue. Trying to keep the lower edges of the upper cowl level with the longerons, plus or minus a quarter of an inch at the front, the upper cowl has to be the first piece. You've got the most room at the top, but the cowl will look strange if it isn't level at the joining edge and parallel with the forward top skin on the top. This requires you get some duct tape and position it first on top of the engine if your engine is mounted. Once you've worked top down, it's time to find the spots that need clearance to get the bottom to come up around the engine and get mating surface underlap with the top cowl. The engine also has to have 3-degrees offset for prop torque and can be down as much as 2 degrees to get the prop flange and spinner to align with the cowl. If you were making an engine mount, it'd be better to pivot around the front flange and swing the rear of the engine to keep the spinner in the center of the cowl. As most have found, the Zenith mount with Stratus engine can be offset up front by as much as 3/4-inch. You might find it easier to remove the exhaust pipes, muffler and valve covers while doing this fit up. This will initially allow you to focus on fewer items like the oil pan. Then mark the spots of contact and consider how much is needed to get around them. Well, you get the drift of what is needed, but it's easier top down and you'll fit these a good many times to compile the best position before you start anchoring things with fasteners. I found the places that would ultimately become center positions for Dzus fasteners and drilled an 1/8-inch hole for clecos to first secure things. It does get close everywhere, but you can get it all to fit if you plan ahead before drilling for the clecos. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com George Swinford wrote: > I'm encouraged by the good responses to my cowl questions. Here is > another: > > Is it best to assemble the two halves of the cowl on the work table > and somehow clamp or cleco them together before fitting one or both to > the fuselage? With the Stratus engine in place it isn't possible to > fit the lower cowl to the fuselage without trimming it to clear the > various "lumps" on the engine. Trimming the lower cowl seems to be a > cut and fit sort of process. Also, it seems to be necessary to > establish the position and slope of the upper cowl pretty early in the > process. Any advice from those who have been there already? > > George Swinford ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:05 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: flanging dies Fritz, I would be interested in seeing a set. Do you have a picture of the die and maybe a picture of a lightning hole. Any instructions on how to make them? I have a band saw and a drill press. The rest, I could probably borrow from another officer at work. I am ready to try anything. Larry ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:31 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Plans builder HELP!!! Doug, how did they work for you. I really wanted the Avery flanging tool. Mine came in and has big wheels that are metal. Would not be bad for something thicker than what we are using on our planes, but I don't like the metal wheels. Larry ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:58 PM PST US From: "messydeer" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II --> Zenith-List message posted by: "messydeer" Thanks everybody for the feedback :=) > The scotchbrite pad thing seems to take forever by hand.? I'm using a plain old scotchbrite pad Ditto w/ the dual action scotchbrite, especially w/ skins, since the pad is ~6" across. I have a weanie compressor so it's not time efficient for me. > Did you do a water break test? Well...uh...no...Knew about it but didn't do it. I did notice the water ran off easily in sheets, but should have thoroughly tested. > jungles of Oregon I'm in similar jungles of the former Oregon Territory. Before that the city was named by George Vancouver after the controller of the storekeeper's account of the Royal Navy. Juding from that, I presume it to have been one of the last things he named. Cheers, Dan -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44661#44661 ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:25 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying stuff Ron, great to hear from you. I finished up the annual and mods tonight and after washing tomorrow I'll try flying again. It's been a month. Hope I remember how ! I can't wait to see how the LRI works out I just installed. Hope it's as big a help to me as you have indicted it has been for you. Take care, Bill ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:20 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II Tracy, I found that it was not bad using the pad by hand. I know that there are scotchbrite wheels that are available but I did not use them. I found that when the pad took longer to use I got rid of it and used a new one. They weren't all that expensive and the new one worked much faster. In a message dated 7/3/2006 5:50:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Crvsecretary@aol.com writes: The scotchbrite pad thing seems to take forever by hand. I'm using a plain old scotchbrite pad (number and color to remain nameless so as not to incite another Scotchbrite debate) and rubbing the parts to take the shine off them. Is there an easier way? A wheel or something to make the job move along? ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:30 PM PST US From: "messydeer" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Alodine and Zinc Chromate, Part II --> Zenith-List message posted by: "messydeer" Enco sells the maroon 7447 scotchbrite for $.59 per pad. I don't use one, but they also have on sale scotchbrite wheels. Order more than $50 and you can get shipping free if you use the code WEBRN76 Their site is . They ship fast, are fairly cheap and have excellent customer service. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44671#44671 ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:42 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel pump puzzle --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin If the fueling station has underground tanks and above ground pumps that are sitting out in the sun, the fuel in the pumps may partially vaporize and cause slow pumping at first. The pumps are sucking the gas up out of the tanks, which makes the problem worse. High octane auto gas is easier to vaporize than low octane and all auto gas is easier to vaporize than avgas. Also, auto gas made for winter use has a higher vapor pressure than summer auto gas. With the fuel system you described in your earlier post, I wouldn't think vapor at your pump inlets would be a problem since any vapor that forms in the tank should rise to the top of the tank and away from the tank outlets and the pumps. If your tank screens are starting to clog up, you may see a drop in pump pressure as you demand higher fuel flows with high throttle settings. If this is the problem, it should also show up on the ground during a high power run-up. If your tank vents are restricted, it may take a while for a drop in pump pressure to show up because it takes a while to form a partial vacuum in the tank. I don't know how your tanks are vented but you should check for blockage (mud wasps are notorious for clogging up small tubing for instance). Any restriction in your fuel lines upstream of your pumps can cause pressure drops at higher fuel flows. On Jul 3, 2006, at 5:39 PM, Michel Therrien wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > I noticed when I fueled up at an airport recently > (with 91 octane mogas). The performance of the pump > (the fueling pump) was very poor for the first 20 > seconds (fuel was flowing very slowly). The man > mentioned something about fueling be slow when > gasoline temperature is high (due to vapor, or > whatever). As a matter of fact, as soon as cool > gasoline entered the pump, it became faster. > > Could this be the same type of problem? I suppose the > gas is fairly hot in those alum wing fuel tanks. > > Any way to improve this? > > Michel > > >>>> >>>> Good morning! >>>> >>>> I recently discovered that my fuel pumps are less >>>> efficient in flight. Fuel pressure (which is >>>> measured >>>> at the gascolator) gets down to ONE psi. >> -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:41 PM PST US From: "Dave and Jan Clay" Subject: Zenith-List: Bending wing rear channels for scratch builders First of all, I am not trying to pass myself off as any sort of "expert". We truly have many of those on this list. I say that in all sincerity. I for one am grateful for the wealth of knowledge found here. I'm just learning as I go. Anyway, I have put together an Acrobat pdf file detailing how I bent my wing rear channels. Randy Bryant has graciously posted them on his website www.n344rb.com and Chris Smith will be posting them on his site http://ch-601xl.com/ . They say necessity is the mother of invention For me that should be poverty is the mother. I'm pretty good at figuring out easier and less expensive ways to do things. I hope my ideas can be of some help to other builders out there. Thanks, Dave Temple, Texas _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:56 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender...again... Hope you are able to adjust it correctly, BUT If the range of the sender cannot be possible to set complete, and you need to make a choise. I will advise to have the accurate reading in the empty side mark. Is better to know when the tank is empty, or how close is to empty, when you are flying headwind. Doesnt matter that the gauge marks full from, lets say 3/4 to full, for example... Just what I will do... Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Randy Bryant wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" Thanks Larry, In short, I guess what you're saying is for me not to have a "built in" reserve with my guage...??? Just make it read what's really there.. If it's full, it's full, if it's empty, it's empty...right? Thanks! Randy Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:45 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > > Randy, > I'd put the float in a position that puts the least amount of fuel at the > bottom of the fuel gage reading. It's being able to see the float jiggle > to a low fuel setting > that offers an idea of how far it is to empty. It would be my preference > to know that to within the last gallon. Where it is when it's full or > above half is of little consequence > compared to the gage that will read nearest empty. Otherwise you'd be > guessing when it hit bottom or if it hit bottom with 3 gallons in play due > to the movement of the > plane. My gages read to less than half a gallon and it's easy to tell > when they've stopped moving. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > Randy Bryant wrote: > >> Over the past 2 days I've been scratch building my wing tanks... I plan >> on doing a top installation of the fuel senders. Not really knowing the >> exact location of where to cut the hole for the sender in the top of my >> tank I did the following: >> 1. I put the tank on my level table and using a wooden block under one >> end of the tank, simulating the dihedral of the wing. >> 2. Next I put a level flat on the table beside the tank simulated the >> fuel level. I wanted my sender positioned in such a way that when the >> float hit the bottom of the tank, I would still have approx. 3 gallons of >> fuel in the tank. (Inboard bottom corner of the tank.) >> 3. Sliding the level back and forth along the table you can manipulate >> the point where the fuel level and tank bottom meet. After doing some >> calculations I came up with a placement of my sender where approx. 3 >> gallons would be left in the tank when the float hit the bottom of the >> tank. >> I guess my real question here is: Do you guys see anything wrong with >> the way I'm doing this? Am I overlooking an important item in all of >> this? >> The measurement I came up with is that the sender would be 420mm from >> the inboard tank end, measure towards outboard. I have posted an >> illustration of what I'm trying to describe here: >> http://www.n344rb.com/images/FuelSenderAnim.gif >> Thanks in advance, >> Randy >> XL Wings - Plans Only >> http://www.n344rb.com >> Do Not Archive >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ---------------------------------