Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:19 AM - Re: Flanging tool (Gbrac80@aol.com)
2. 02:55 AM - Dynon on Corvair engine (Dave Thompson)
3. 05:33 AM - Re: Writing started (John Bolding)
4. 05:58 AM - Re: Flanging tool (Randy Bryant)
5. 06:19 AM - Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Gig Giacona)
6. 06:27 AM - Re: Writing started (Bill Naumuk)
7. 06:46 AM - Re: Writing started (Bob Percival)
8. 06:46 AM - Re: Writing started (Bob Percival)
9. 07:03 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Jim Hoak)
10. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Michael Valentine)
12. 08:03 AM - Re: Flanging tools (Monty Graves)
13. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Paul Mulwitz)
14. 08:20 AM - 701 AVWeb POTW? (Michael Valentine)
15. 08:22 AM - Re: Fuel pump puzzle (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
16. 08:24 AM - 701 strut painting (Zed Smith)
17. 08:39 AM - Re: Fuel pump puzzle ()
18. 08:42 AM - Re: 701 AVWeb POTW? (Christopher Smith)
19. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
20. 08:50 AM - Re: 701 AVWeb POTW? (Chuck Deiterich)
21. 08:50 AM - Re: 701 strut painting ()
22. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (John Hines)
23. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Robin Bellach)
24. 09:24 AM - Looks like 701 on floats (Zed Smith)
25. 10:10 AM - Re: Flanging tool (Gary Gower)
26. 10:59 AM - Here it is (Bill Naumuk)
27. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Paul Mulwitz)
28. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
29. 12:04 PM - Re: Here it is (Mike)
30. 12:11 PM - Oshkosh Bound (mike sinclair)
31. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Jaybannist@cs.com)
32. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Tom and Bren Henderson)
33. 12:26 PM - 601HDS Changes (Klaus Truemper)
34. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Phil Maxson)
35. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Phil Maxson)
36. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
37. 02:15 PM - Corvair Bashing and other irritating, close-minded individuals... (Tom and Bren Henderson)
38. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
39. 02:31 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (John Hines)
40. 02:31 PM - Re: 601HDS Changes (LarryMcFarland)
41. 02:38 PM - Re: Here it is (LarryMcFarland)
42. 02:42 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Rick Lindstrom)
43. 02:43 PM - Re: Corvair Bashing and other irritating, close-minded individuals... (Christopher Smith)
44. 02:57 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (LHusky@aol.com)
45. 03:14 PM - Flanging tool advice (Edward Moody II)
46. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
47. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
48. 03:19 PM - Re: Corvair Bashing and other irritating, close-minded individuals... (Tom and Bren Henderson)
49. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Clyde Barcus)
50. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Tom and Bren Henderson)
51. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (JOHN STARN)
52. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Dave)
53. 03:35 PM - Re: Corvair Bashing and other irritating, close-minded individuals... (Christopher Smith)
54. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
55. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
56. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Robin Bellach)
57. 04:13 PM - Re: Here it is (Bill Naumuk)
58. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
59. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Rick Lindstrom)
60. 04:23 PM - Re: Flanging tool advice (Bill Naumuk)
61. 04:35 PM - Re: Flanging tool advice (Edward Moody II)
62. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
63. 04:48 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (John Hines)
64. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (John Hines)
65. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (LarryMcFarland)
66. 05:54 PM - Re: Flanging tool advice (ROBERT SCEPPA)
67. 06:16 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
68. 06:16 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Christopher Smith)
69. 06:23 PM - Re: Here it is (Bill Naumuk)
70. 06:27 PM - Rear Longerons on Bottom Fuselage (Scott Thatcher)
71. 06:34 PM - Re: Flanging tool advice (Bill Naumuk)
72. 07:19 PM - Re: Here it is (mike sinclair)
73. 08:32 PM - Corvair Conversions (Gary Boothe)
74. 09:18 PM - Corvair Conversions (Gary Boothe)
75. 09:28 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Randy Bryant)
76. 10:34 PM - Re: 701 AVWeb POTW? (NYTerminat@aol.com)
77. 10:36 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Paul Mulwitz)
78. 11:51 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (kevinbonds)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool |
Larry,
Hole flanging die: Make sure that the die has a generous radius where the
metal is formed around, or the parts WILL come out cracked.
I use a simple, wooden, 2x4 frame and a hydraulic bottle jack with my die
set. Perfection each and every time.
I apply lots of force (easy to do with hydraulics) to ensure complete
forming of the flange. Too little force and the part distorts from incomplete
forming. I doubt too much force is possible, as the metal first properly forms
in the die, then resists further forces in simple compression. The part comes
out with a perfectly formed flanged hole and is otherwise absolutely flat.
Rgds,
Mike.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Dynon on Corvair engine |
Larry,
For what it's worth, if you're going to install a Corvair in you're
aircraft; I truly hope that you are following William Wynne's advice on your
build. He has the most experience with the engine.
I had a face to face conversation with William regarding engine
instrumentation a year or so ago. His theories made a lot of sense. He
advocates using mechanical engine instruments. The primary reason is that
they are immune to electrical system failures. With a total electrical
system failure, running the engine on just the battery, his tests show that
the ignition will run the engine down to I believe 9 volts (Don't quote me
on that number). Anyway, the point is; you'll have a long time of full power
to get yourself to an airport. With mechanical instruments, you will have
less to worry about knowing what the engine is doing. He specifically
mentioned that the Dynon units connect directly to the ignition. He cautions
against instruments that might "wig-out" and short out the ignition system
which will, of course stop the engine.
I personally agree with the above. However, I sure like the looks of a glass
panel. If you decide on the Dynon, or any other electronic engine
instrumentation you might consider installing "Idiot Lights" just in case
the Dynon decides to misbehave. Easy lamps to install could be: Oil Temp,
Oil Pressure, Alternator and CHT (use the stock lamp sender). A back-up tach
might also be handy. Check out the link below for some cool panel lamps with
legends.
http://www.k-four.net/catform.htm
Check out pages 7, 10 and especially page 15 of their catalog. I've
purchased many switches and lamps from them through the years and they carry
great quality stuff. Of course, I'm sure that you know; don't use their wire
or crimps on an aircraft.
As for senders, my experience is with cars & boats but they are all engines.
What you'll need is the proper sender for the indicating device. What I mean
is for instance, an oil pressure sender will turn on at a specific pressure
(typically published with the unit) sending ground to a lamp. An electrical
instrument sender will send a varying resistance to ground. That varying
resistance is read by the instrument. If the instrument and sender are not
calibrated to each other, the indication will not be correct.
As long as the sender is correct for the indicator, your only problem may be
appropriate threaded holes at the right location on the engine for that
sender. Be sure that the oil temp sender is down in the flow of heated oil.
I nearly burnt up my '64 Corvair convertible engine back in high school. I
put a sender up on a pipe post and a "T". Most of the hot oil bypassed the
pipe & "T" giving me erroneous instrument temp readings.
I suggest you also look into some type of inductive or magnetic tach sender
to divorce the Dynon unit from the ignition system. I haven't studied enough
to properly advise you on what to try.
Using advice from William, I plan to use Autometer Z-series mechanical
instruments (see the link below). I will also have an "idiot light" over
most instruments. I'm considering the Dynon EFIS-D10A for flight
instrumentation only. That way I will have the best of both worlds. William
said something like "its ironic using auto instruments on an auto conversion
flight engine."
http://autometer.com/cat_gaugeseries.aspx
I called the Autometer factory and they said that if they don't have an
instrument in a particular series but do in another of the same size, they
can custom make an instrument for a minimal charge.
That's my two cents worth, take it or leave it.
Dave Thompson
dave.thompson@verizon.net
Westminster, CA
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Writing started |
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Percival
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:49 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Writing started
Long time lurker - 701 plans and Corvair core in hand. (Let the
flaming begin).
do not archive
Bob, Gimme a note off list, several of us have been building this
combo for a long time
and we need you in the group, I'm sure you are aware that
a 701/Vair has flown
in New Zealand and by CAREFUL weight control was able to
keep his weight to
within 25# of a neighbors 701/912. Those 25# can ALSO be
removed.
jnbolding1 at teleshare.net replace the "at" with @.
John
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool |
My cousin made a set of flanging dies for he and I to use. He made a "T
Handle" to squeeze the 2 halves together... These work very well too.
Attached are 2 pics of my dies.
Thanks,
Randy
XL Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Gbrac80@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging tool
Larry,
Hole flanging die: Make sure that the die has a generous radius where
the metal is formed around, or the parts WILL come out cracked.
I use a simple, wooden, 2x4 frame and a hydraulic bottle jack with my
die set. Perfection each and every time.
I apply lots of force (easy to do with hydraulics) to ensure complete
forming of the flange. Too little force and the part distorts from
incomplete forming. I doubt too much force is possible, as the metal
first properly forms in the die, then resists further forces in simple
compression. The part comes out with a perfectly formed flanged hole
and is otherwise absolutely flat.
Rgds,
Mike.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you would still have
access to the engine instruments should your electrical system fail.
Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail the ignition
system. Though I might be wrong and will conceed the point if someone could
explain it to me.
That said, I've had tachs go out and completed the flight with no problem. I'd
be much more concerned with the loss of ALT and AS. But since I plan to have a
396 in the panel as well I feel its vitual panel will be an acceptable back-up
for the Dynon unit given the type of flying I plan to do.
> Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Larry,
> ?
> For what its worth, if youre going to install a Corvair in youre aircraft; I
truly hope that you are following William Wynnes advice on your build. He has
the most experience with the engine.
> ?
> I had a face to face conversation with William regarding engine instrumentation
a year or so ago. His theories made a lot of sense. He advocates using mechanical
engine instruments. The primary reason is that they are immune to electrical
system failures. With a total electrical system failure, running the engine
on just the battery, his tests show that the ignition will run the engine
down to I believe 9 volts (Dont quote me on that number). Anyway, the point is;
youll have a long time of full power to get yourself to an airport. With mechanical
instruments, you will have less to worry about knowing what the engine
is doing. He specifically mentioned that the Dynon units connect directly to
the ignition. He cautions against instruments that might wig-out and short out
the ignition system which will, of course stop the engine.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45162#45162
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Writing started |
Thanks, Bob. We made it, and I'm struggling with writing the article
right now.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Percival
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:49 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Writing started
Long time lurker - 701 plans and Corvair core in hand. (Let the
flaming begin).
SETTING THE STAGE
1 - Yes
2 - No
3 - Yes (my questions have, so far, been answered without me having to
ask)
4 - N/A
5 - 2.5 hours
6 - .25 hours
7 - No
8 - The list is an obvious wealth of information. Even if everyone on
my block was building a CH something I'd read the list.
DAY TO DAY
1 - 0 (Well, until now.)
2 - N/A
3 - I look at the list FIRST. I'm in the very early stages of my
project and will move forward at a glacial pace due to financial and
time constraints. This does provide me with the ability to benefit from
other builder's trials and tribulations before I forge ahead. Short
answer - 90%
5 - I've really enjoyed the camaraderie in a lurking, non
participating sort of way until now.
CRUNCHTIME
I'm not far enough along to have blown off any toes yet. (Other than
the possible engine selection which is clearly heavier than CH
intended.) I'm sure I'll shoot myself squarely in the foot at some
point. When I do so I'll confess here and accept the help and any
criticism as well. Since I'm going the plans built route I won't be able
to comment on kit issues. I've been studying the plans but it is too
soon for me to comment on those.
BOTTOM LINE
1 - Yes
2 - I'm don't think I'd have ordered plans if it weren't for this
list.
3 - Absolutley.
Thanks to all you listers for the considerable amount of effort I see
put forth here.
Bob Percival
701 Scratch Builder
Working on Corvair conversion, forms, & $75.00 brake press.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 12:59 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Writing started
Roger-
Attached. Thanks.
Bill
SETTING THE STAGE
1. Were you aware of, and did you join a builder's list before
you made a final kit choice?
2. Did you post questions on the list re: your reservations
concerning a potential choice?
3. Did the responses (Assuming any) have a significant effect on
your final choice?
4. If "No" to the above, how long had you been building before
joining?
5. How long would it take to drive to the nearest local builder
of your kit brand and model?
6. How long would it take to drive to the nearest local builder
of your kit brand?
7. Was the lack of local builders the primary reason you joined
a list?
8. If "No" to any of the above, why did you join a list?
DAY TO DAY
1. How many days a week do you post to your list? (Do you feel
more of a need to be an active
contributor vs a passive member)
2. Are most of your posts re: specific technical
questions/answers, or are they more socially
and opinion oriented?
3. What is the percentage of answers/leads to technical
questions you get from your list as
opposed to other sources?
4. Do you find your participation in a list more satisfying from
a technical or social aspect?
CRUNCH TIME (This is the "Essay test" portion)
We've all been faced with major setbacks. No matter the
circumstances, the first
question is "How did that happen?" Answer as many times as you
like. Suggestions for
content are:
Did you know before you posted that you were the cause of the
problem? If you knew
you screwed up, did you post to "Admit your guilt and confess
your sins", getting the reinforcement
from other listers like, "Yeah, join the club", enabling you to
go on? Were you angry at yourself
or depressed? How long does it take you to get over the
anger/depression/indecision and back to work?
Did you post to determine where you screwed up? Was the list
instrumental in finding
the reason?
How do you feel about problems attributable to the kit
manufacturer?
BOTTOM LINE
1. Has membership to the list been worthwhile?
2. Has membership to the list provided enough support to salvage
a seemingly hopeless project?
3. Would you recommend membership in a list to a newbie?
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Venables
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Writing started
Bill
Send me a questionnaire and I will respond
Thanks
Roger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:09 AM
To: zenith list
Subject: Zenith-List: Writing started
All-
I had to take the day off to keep out of the way of the
contractors who are putting in the garanger's French drain system, so I
started writing the list article.
While tabulating the questionnaire responses, I realized I was
still a few short of 25. The way things are shaping up, it probably
won't make any difference to the final outcome, but it would be nice to
have the responses "In the bank" if SA asks.
So, this is my last post asking for questionnaires or responses.
Thanks, all.
Bill
do not archive
Message 7
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Sorry for the last reply folks, meant it to be off list - Newbie mistake
Do not archive
Bob Percival
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Bolding
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:09 AM
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:49 PM
Long time lurker - 701 plans and Corvair core in hand. (Let the flaming
begin).
do not archive
Bob, Gimme a note off list, several of us have been building this
combo for a long time
and we need you in the group, I'm sure you are aware that a
701/Vair has flown
in New Zealand and by CAREFUL weight control was able to
keep his weight to
within 25# of a neighbors 701/912. Those 25# can ALSO be
removed.
jnbolding1 at <mailto:jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
teleshare.net replace the "at" with @.
John
Message 8
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Hello John,
Thanks for the invite to your group of 701/Vair builders! I'm very
interested in your weight loss program and any necessary 701
fortifications. I am aware of the top channel "Zee" reinforcement but am
curious if any other mods are being made. I know these usually result in
a weight penalty and we're already over budget.
Thanks!
Bob
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Bolding
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:09 AM
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:49 PM
Long time lurker - 701 plans and Corvair core in hand. (Let the flaming
begin).
do not archive
Bob, Gimme a note off list, several of us have been building this
combo for a long time
and we need you in the group, I'm sure you are aware that a
701/Vair has flown
in New Zealand and by CAREFUL weight control was able to
keep his weight to
within 25# of a neighbors 701/912. Those 25# can ALSO be
removed.
jnbolding1 at <mailto:jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
teleshare.net replace the "at" with @.
John
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" <planejim@bellsouth.net>
List,
I seem to remember that many years ago some of the VW powered homebuilts
were using a certain type ( I think it was Westach - could be wrong here )
of tach that were prone to shorting out someway and killing the
ignition.Some airplanes went down because of it. I don't know any of the
technical details so I can't help there. Just something that came to mind.
Everybody be carefull!
Jim Hoak
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 9:17 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
>
> Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail the
> ignition system. Though I might be wrong and will conceed the point if
> someone could explain it to me.
>
>> Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair
>> engine
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Larry,
>> ?
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45162#45162
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
A tach could easily kill an ignition...All it has to do is short the
signal wire to ground and that ign will stop working.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoak
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 7:02 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" <planejim@bellsouth.net>
List,
I seem to remember that many years ago some of the VW powered homebuilts
were using a certain type ( I think it was Westach - could be wrong here
) of tach that were prone to shorting out someway and killing the
ignition.Some airplanes went down because of it. I don't know any of the
technical details so I can't help there. Just something that came to
mind.
Everybody be carefull!
Jim Hoak
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 9:17 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
>
> Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail
the
> ignition system. Though I might be wrong and will conceed the point
if
> someone could explain it to me.
>
>> Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair
>> engine
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
>>
>> Larry,
>> ?
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45162#45162
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
I attended Corvair College #9 and was certainly impressed with the passion
and professionalism of William and his group. However, I met people there
that felt that electronics were not William's strong suit. In part, I think
this feeling arose because he was unwilling or chose not to consider that
many people seriously want to use electronic instruments and engine
information systems. In part, William does not seem to consider the
investment in a glass panel to be economically worthwhile for our light
sporty and primarily VFR planes.
Although I understand his personal philosophy, I do not share it. I
certainly want a glass panel and modern electronic instrument
information/analysis systems. I also know that many Corvair users have
installed such systems - at least as to the EIS, if not the actual primary
flight instruments.
Ultimately, I think the key is to understand how your system works and to
make the personal choice of how you want to balance your priorities. There
is no question that the Dynon can be used. It is simply up to us builders
to install it in such a way that we understand the possible failures and
choose to accept (or not) those risks.
Michael Valentine
(Admittedly no where near the stage that any of this directly affects me
yet!)
On 7/6/06, Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@cox.net> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
>
> First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you would
> still have access to the engine instruments should your electrical system
> fail.
>
> Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail the
> ignition system. Though I might be wrong and will conceed the point if
> someone could explain it to me.
>
>
> > Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair
> engine
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Larry,
> > ?
> > For what it's worth, if you're going to install a Corvair in you're
> aircraft; I truly hope that you are following William Wynne's advice on your
> build. He has the most experience with the engine.
> > ?
> > I had a face to face conversation with William regarding engine
> instrumentation a year or so ago. His theories made a lot of sense. He
> advocates using mechanical engine instruments. The primary reason is that
> they are immune to electrical system failures. With a total electrical
> system failure, running the engine on just the battery, his tests show that
> the ignition will run the engine down to I believe 9 volts (Don't quote me
> on that number). Anyway, the point is; you'll have a long time of full power
> to get yourself to an airport. With mechanical instruments, you will have
> less to worry about knowing what the engine is doing. He specifically
> mentioned that the Dynon units connect directly to the ignition. He cautions
> against instruments that might "wig-out" and short out the ignition system
> which will, of course stop the engine.
> >
>
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tools |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
For those that really don't want to make a set from wood or metal.
http://www.mittlerbros.com/
will make you a set from machined steel. These Mittlerbros is where
Zenith got their bench mounted punch and flare tools at the shop in Mexico
MO. ALL flanges from the factory both 601 and 701 are made with these dies.
Hit PUNCH AND FLARE TOOLS button at the bottom of the above page..
The 701 and the 601 use the same flange sizes...... 65, 95 & 115 mm
Zenith only has those three sizes on the bench.
Nick has approved the 2.5 inch flange from Mittlerbros at $40 instead of
the 65mm
And a 4.5 inch flange which Milltler will have on the shelf but not listed
on the web page instead of the 115mm.
and they will custom make a custom 95mm one.........
All three should be less than $200 total encluding shipping, but these
prices were a couple of years ago.
your mileage may vary
Monty
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
I don't think the possibility of a tachometer failing and bringing
down the connected ignition system is the interesting point
here. The real point is that the auto engine ignition system is
prone to single point failures in any part including the battery,
battery connectors, wiring, generator/alternator, and all the
ignition parts up to the spark plugs. If any of these parts fails
(with possible exception of a spark plug) then the engine stops
running. This happens frequently in automobile engines, but real
aircraft engines have dual isolated ignition systems that don't
depend on battery power to work (i.e. magnetos).
If you want aircraft engine reliability then install an aircraft
engine in your aircraft. If you are happy with auto engine
reliability then don't worry about the tachometer - just worry about
the whole thing.
Paul
XL fuselage
>First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you
>would still have access to the engine instruments should your
>electrical system fail.
>
>Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail
>the ignition system. Though I might be wrong and will conceed the
>point if someone could explain it to me.
---------------------------------------
Message 14
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Is the second picture here a 701?
<http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_27b/potw/192653-1.html>
Michael
do not archive
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Fuel pump puzzle |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I would bypass that firewall pump, I'm pretty suspicious of that iand it
it is pretty useless as you say...
Farnk
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Therrien
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:00 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I'm actually pumping through the firewall pump.
My plan was to remove it as I became convinced it was useless... not so
sure anymore since it brings back my fuel pressure to an acceptable
level (when used in conjunction with wing pumps).
I'll check for venting, but I'd be surprised (I saw fuel dropping out of
vents when I moved the plane with fuel gas tanks last weekend. Of
course, visually, vents look clean.
Filtration?
. finger screen in tanks, gascolator at the bottom of the firewall, fuel
filter at the carburetor.
The fuel pressure sender is on the gascolator. I just checked and
cleaned the gascolator screen upon doing my annual inspection, about a
month or so ago.
I'll inspect my finger screens.
Michel
--- "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank
> George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I assume there is a bypass around the firewall pump?
> Or are you pumping
> through it?
>
> If your pumping through it you might try removing this pump altogether
> (really is not necessary anyway) at least temporarily. It maybe that
> the little checkvalve on the third pump may be acting up.
>
> Either that or it sounds like a venting issue.
>
> In the HDS I had a 40106 pump in each wing root and that always gave
> me 5psi or so at the carb inlet.
>
> What do you use for filtration?...Filters plugging?
>
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________________________
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | 701 strut painting |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
List,
Has anybody found an easy way to paint the INSIDE of the 701 wing struts?
Mine are the older two-piece type; possibly a sponge on a long rod?
Pour paint in until it is full, pour it out, let it drain & dry?
Pour linseed oil through it?
Don't worry about it?
Stick a cork stopper in each end?
Thanks,
Zed
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Fuel pump puzzle |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Let me put my two cents in here.... as long as the pump is istalled and wired,
I would keep it but plumb in a valved bypass just incase. One "T" and a valve
won't cost or weigh much and might be very handy one day. The valve would allow
you to direct fuel flow either through the bypass line or through the fuel pump.
Under normal operations, I would definitely bypass the firewall area pump
because the last thing we want is lower pressure in the line from the tanks to
the pump. That's the area in which we are most likely to vaporize a bubble from
sun-warmed ethanol blend fuel. However, if one of the other pumps fails, it
would be nice to at least pressurize the line from the firewall to the carb.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / wings
---- "Hinde wrote:
>
> I would bypass that firewall pump, I'm pretty suspicious of that iand it
> it is pretty useless as you say...
>
> Farnk
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: 701 AVWeb POTW? |
Yes
On 7/6/06, Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is the second picture here a 701?
>
> <http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_27b/potw/192653-1.html>
>
> Michael
>
> do not archive
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Is this true about the Corvair? No duel Mags?
On 7/6/06, Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <
> p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> I don't think the possibility of a tachometer failing and bringing
> down the connected ignition system is the interesting point
> here. The real point is that the auto engine ignition system is
> prone to single point failures in any part including the battery,
> battery connectors, wiring, generator/alternator, and all the
> ignition parts up to the spark plugs. If any of these parts fails
> (with possible exception of a spark plug) then the engine stops
> running. This happens frequently in automobile engines, but real
> aircraft engines have dual isolated ignition systems that don't
> depend on battery power to work (i.e. magnetos).
>
> If you want aircraft engine reliability then install an aircraft
> engine in your aircraft. If you are happy with auto engine
> reliability then don't worry about the tachometer - just worry about
> the whole thing.
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
>
>
> >First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you
> >would still have access to the engine instruments should your
> >electrical system fail.
> >
> >Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail
> >the ignition system. Though I might be wrong and will conceed the
> >point if someone could explain it to me.
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 701 AVWeb POTW? |
It sure looks like one.
Chuck D.
N701TX
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Valentine
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:19 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 AVWeb POTW?
Is the second picture here a 701?
<http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_27b/potw/192653-1.html>
Michael
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: 701 strut painting |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
This sounds like a great area for that pump spray and wand system that has been
discussed on the list in several previous posts. If that doesn't ring a bell,
search the archives re corrosion prevention. I think it was recommended to be
done once a year or so and supposedly works very well. A layer of corrosion inhibiting
oil would be more likely to work than trying to do a good job with primer
or paint inside there.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / wings
---- Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Has anybody found an easy way to paint the INSIDE of the 701 wing struts?
>
> Mine are the older two-piece type; possibly a sponge on a long rod?
> Pour paint in until it is full, pour it out, let it drain & dry?
> Pour linseed oil through it?
> Don't worry about it?
> Stick a cork stopper in each end?
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
That is correct. It uses a dual ignition distributor with dual coils
and single spark plugs.
http://www.flycorvair.com/distributor.html
It's all a matter of risk management and identifying an expectable level
of risk. Everything you do in life is a risk. Going to work this
morning in these hills with crazy drivers crossing the center line is
definitely a risk. But it was a risk I was willing to take to have the
view out my back window. To me, the view from my Corvair powered Zodiac
will be worth the calculated risk.
Get the latest copy of kit plane magazine. There is a wonderful article
in it about auto conversions and there problems and successes. It also
refers to people building auto conversions as having the true pioneer
spirit that the EAA was founded on. It's a great read.
John
________________________________
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christopher
Smith
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:45 AM
Is this true about the Corvair? No duel Mags?
On 7/6/06, Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <
p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net <mailto:p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> >
I don't think the possibility of a tachometer failing and bringing
down the connected ignition system is the interesting point
here. The real point is that the auto engine ignition system is
prone to single point failures in any part including the battery,
battery connectors, wiring, generator/alternator, and all the
ignition parts up to the spark plugs. If any of these parts fails
(with possible exception of a spark plug) then the engine stops
running. This happens frequently in automobile engines, but real
aircraft engines have dual isolated ignition systems that don't
depend on battery power to work (i.e. magnetos).
If you want aircraft engine reliability then install an aircraft
engine in your aircraft. If you are happy with auto engine
reliability then don't worry about the tachometer - just worry about
the whole thing.
Paul
XL fuselage
>First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you
>would still have access to the engine instruments should your
>electrical system fail.
>
>Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail
>the ignition system. Though I might be wrong and will conceed the
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
John R. Hines
IT Manager
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
Rogers, AR 72756
Office: 479-878-2449
Mobile: 479-366-4783
Fax: 479-631-6224
John.Hines@craftontull.com
www.craftontull.com
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>That is correct. It uses a
dual
ignition distributor with dual coils and single spark
plugs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.flycorvair.com/distributor.html">http://www.flycorvair
com/distributor.html</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It’s all a matter of risk
management
and identifying an expectable level of risk. Everything you do in
life is
a risk. Going to work this morning in these hills with crazy
drivers
crossing the center line is definitely a risk. But it was a risk I
was
willing to take to have the view out my back window. To me, the
view from
my Corvair powered Zodiac will be worth the calculated risk.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Get the latest copy of kit plane
magazine. There is a wonderful article in it about auto
conversions and
there problems and successes. It also refers to people building
auto
conversions as having the true pioneer spirit that the EAA was founded
on. It’s a great read.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>John <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14pt;
COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Verdana"
align=left>John R. Hines</TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=left>IT Manager</TD></TR><TR><TD
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #767374;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=left>John.Hines@craftontull.com</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle
height=10></TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE:
8pt; COLOR: #767374; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=left><br/>
Office: 479-878-2449 <br/>
Mobile: 479-366-4783 <br/>
Fax: 479-631-6224 </TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle
height=10></TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE:
7pt; COLOR: #767374; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=right><A
href="http://www.craftontull.com/">www.craftontull.com</A></TD></TR><TR
><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; COLOR: #767374;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=right>901 N. 47th
Street, Suite 200 ·Rogers, AR 72756</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right
height=40><A title="Visit our website for more information."
style="TEXT-DECORATION: none" href="http://www.craftontull.com/"
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align=justify>Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to
anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with
successful
solutions.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV><hr
size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Christopher Smith<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July 06,
2006
10:45 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">zenith-list@matronics.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Zenith-List:
Re:
Dynon on Corvair engine</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Is this true
about the
Corvair? No duel Mags?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailquote><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On 7/6/06, <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>Paul
Mulwitz</span></b> <<a
href="mailto:p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net">p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net</a>
>
wrote: </span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>-->
Zenith-List
message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <<a
href="mailto:p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net">
p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net</a>><br>
<br>
I don't think the possibility of a tachometer failing and bringing<br>
down the connected ignition system is the interesting point<br>
here. The real point is that the auto engine ignition system
is <br>
prone to single point failures in any part including the battery,<br>
battery connectors, wiring, generator/alternator, and all the<br>
ignition parts up to the spark plugs. If any of these parts
fails<br>
(with possible exception of a spark plug) then the engine stops <br>
running. This happens frequently in automobile engines, but
real<br>
aircraft engines have dual isolated ignition systems that don't<br>
depend on battery power to work (i.e. magnetos).<br>
<br>
If you want aircraft engine reliability then install an aircraft <br>
engine in your aircraft. If you are happy with auto
engine<br>
reliability then don't worry about the tachometer - just worry about<br>
the whole thing.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
XL fuselage<br>
<br>
<br>
>First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you
<br>
>would still have access to the engine instruments should your<br>
>electrical system fail.<br>
><br>
>Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and
fail<br>
>the ignition system. Though I might be wrong and will
conceed
the <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Christopher W. E. Smith<br>
fly1m1<br>
<a href="http://ch-601xl.com">http://ch-601xl.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
The typical Corvair conversion uses a William Wynne designed dual point
ignition. See FlyCorvair.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Smith
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
Is this true about the Corvair? No duel Mags?
Message 24
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| Subject: | Looks like 701 on floats |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Is the nose wheel actually in contact with the road surface?
Not a bad paint job, either.
Zed
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool |
Hello Tom,
This is great, not only that the list is full of help and advise betwen us,
but also that there is some team work, sorry that some of us are international,
customs laws sometimes makes sharing parts or materials expensive and impractical.
Keep the good work and share it will all of us.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico (701)
Building a 601 XL.
Tom and Bren Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
Ok, that last one was meant for Larry. Sorry list. (Seems like a lot of us
are doing that lately. lol)
LHusky@aol.com wrote: I believe I have found someone to make my die's. They
will be rather expensive, but I need them and do not have the resource's to
make them. I tried the plywood ones, but all I have is a small band saw. I
would need a compass to make the circle and could not find one in this small "Little
house on the Prarie town". I should have my dies in about a month I am
told. I guess it is time to go work on an engine now. I will pick up all the
core parts from a Corvair guy next week. I can have it cleaned locally, but
everything else I will send out.
I just wanted you guys to know that my dies will be available to any future builder
at no charge except shipping. That is after I have all my holes done!!
Larry Husky
Lakeview, OR
In limbo for now:)
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
Message 26
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All-
Draft article attached.
Bill
do not archive
JULY 5, 2006
EAA-
Please consider the following draft article for publication in an
upcoming SA edition:
"Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are no
exception. Divide the world's
population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find
that there aren't that many "Birds"
available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when
the Wright brothers had to wait
months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet
builder's group, you can correspond
instantaneously with other "Birds" building something similar to
your project.
Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. Things went
acceptably well, so I
maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With
all the confidence of the
hopelessly na=EFve, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build
myself (Or more accurately,
mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and
tried to sell the project.
Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's site to
builders who were flying
and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral
support, I was able to rebuild
myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my
project and eventually recommended
that I join the international builder's list.
After participating on the builder's list for over a year I
realized that I wasn't the only
one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought
it was important that SA readers
be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my belief
and responded to a
questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What follows
is a compilation of their responses:
The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading the posts
of others you can get
a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished
product. Forewarned of recurring
problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware
of finished product limitations,
you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and
expectations before it's too late.
75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an
average of 2 months after they
had purchased their kit or plans.
Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major reason given
for joining a list, even
though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is
the fact that the internet is acting
as an alternative to face-to-face interaction.
Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. Some listers
are more comfortable
remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the
fray. Yes, fray. Don't forget, you're
dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and
sisters, and I guarantee you at
times you'll fight like siblings!
When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for
technical or social reasons"
the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted
macho response, because
when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted
that once friendships had been
established, social communication was an added bonus.
Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of technical
advice. The common
response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely
slow in coming. As an
alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list
recommendations with EAA
Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the
first to respond, with a factory
blessing weeks or even months later.
Just about every respondent encountered a major problem while
building. There
were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans,
instructions, interpretation of the instructions,
or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been
avoided by posting a question or
researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet
the manufacturer's projected
build time.
Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a major
problem, with the average
builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more
background in psychology than me will
have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a
builder's mind to be able to come up
with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open
for everyone to offer moral and/or
technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually,
the ensuing interchange will become
a permanent part of the archives to help builders in the future.
Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list
membership was beneficial,
and recommending membership to new builders.
Good building!
William J. Naumuk EAA# 336752
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it.
Since the "Dual" parts are not isolated from each other (they are
connected at the spark plugs and the battery/generator/voltage
regulator) it is possible that failures of any of the additional
components could bring down the whole engine. It is clear that the
additional components naturally lead to more individual component
failures since there are more components. I don't know how many of
the component failure modes have been analyzed with regard to one
failure causing another part to not work properly. Without this
analysis it is not possible to know whether the increased complexity
leads to improvement or deterioration of the engine reliability.
In any event, failure of the battery, generator, voltage regulator,
or any of the related wiring and connectors could lead to an instant
engine failure. This is not supposed to happen in true aircraft
engines because the dual isolated magneto system doesn't rely on
battery power to keep the engine running. That leads me to believe
the Corvair conversion, like all auto conversions, is more likely to
experience a complete in-flight power failure than a purpose built
aircraft engine.
Paul
XL Fuselage
>That is correct. It uses a dual ignition distributor with dual
>coils and single spark plugs.
>
><http://www.flycorvair.com/distributor.html>http://www.flycorvaircom/distributor.html
>
>
>It's all a matter of risk management and identifying an expectable
>level of risk. Everything you do in life is a risk. Going to work
>this morning in these hills with crazy drivers crossing the center
>line is definitely a risk. But it was a risk I was willing to take
>to have the view out my back window. To me, the view from my
>Corvair powered Zodiac will be worth the calculated risk.
>
-
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Paul I know very little about the Corvair solution but if it is wired up
correctly then the ignition systems will be isolated from each other
On my twin battery Subaru system it had a diode seperating the batteries
and no inter connection between the systems was allowed anywhere. Each
fuel pump was run from each battery. The HT leads also go through a coil
joiner which are also diode protected..
Setup like this you could have your main battery melt down and catch
fire but the engine would not quit.
I would put my Soob conversion up against any Lycoming for reliability
...At least I would now the valve guides don't fall out....:)
Frank
HDS Soob 400 hours
RV7a Lycoming clone...Painting..still
________________________________
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Mulwitz
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:32 AM
It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it.
Since the "Dual" parts are not isolated from each other (they are
connected at the spark plugs and the battery/generator/voltage
regulator) it is possible that failures of any of the additional
components could bring down the whole engine. It is clear that the
additional components naturally lead to more individual component
failures since there are more components. I don't know how many of the
component failure modes have been analyzed with regard to one failure
causing another part to not work properly. Without this analysis it is
not possible to know whether the increased complexity leads to
improvement or deterioration of the engine reliability.
In any event, failure of the battery, generator, voltage regulator, or
any of the related wiring and connectors could lead to an instant engine
failure. This is not supposed to happen in true aircraft engines
because the dual isolated magneto system doesn't rely on battery power
to keep the engine running. That leads me to believe the Corvair
conversion, like all auto conversions, is more likely to experience a
complete in-flight power failure than a purpose built aircraft engine.
Paul
XL Fuselage
That is correct. It uses a dual ignition distributor with dual
coils and single spark plugs.
http://www.flycorvaircom/distributor.html
<http://www.flycorvair.com/distributor.html>
It's all a matter of risk management and identifying an
expectable level of risk. Everything you do in life is a risk. Going
to work this morning in these hills with crazy drivers crossing the
center line is definitely a risk. But it was a risk I was willing to
take to have the view out my back window. To me, the view from my
Corvair powered Zodiac will be worth the calculated risk.
-
Message 29
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Excellent!
do not archive
Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote: All-
Draft article attached.
Bill
do not archive
JULY 5, 2006 EAA-
Please consider the following draft article for publication in an upcoming
SA edition:
"Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are no exception.
Divide the world's population by the number of active homebuilders
and you'll find that there aren't that many "Birds" available
to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when the Wright
brothers had to wait months for a letter from Octave Chanute.
Thanks to the internet builder's group, you can correspond instantaneously
with other "Birds" building something similar to your project.
Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. Things went acceptably
well, so I maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole
nine yards. With all the confidence of the hopelessly nave, I forged
ahead on my own and managed to build myself (Or more accurately,
mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and tried
to sell the project.
Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's site to builders
who were flying and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks
to his technical and moral support, I was able to rebuild myself
out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project and eventually
recommended that I join the international builder's list.
After participating on the builder's list for over a year I realized
that I wasn't the only one who had their project saved by internet
buddies, and thought it was important that SA readers be made
aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my belief and responded
to a
questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What follows
is a compilation of their responses:
The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading the posts
of others you can get a feel for recurring problems and the limitations
of the finished product. Forewarned of recurring problems,
you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of finished product
limitations, you can opt out for a design more compatable
with your needs and expectations before it's too late. 75% of
the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an average of
2 months after they had purchased their kit or plans.
Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major reason given
for joining a list, even though listers live an average of 2 hours
apart. Not surprising is the fact that the internet is acting
as an alternative to face-to-face interaction.
Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. Some listers
are more comfortable remaining in the background, and others prefer
to join in the fray. Yes, fray. Don't forget, you're dealing
with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and sisters, and
I guarantee you at times you'll fight like siblings!
When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for technical
or social reasons" the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This
must be the accepted macho response, because when phrased differently
later in the questionnaire, most admitted that once friendships had
been established, social communication was an added bonus.
Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of technical advice.
The common response was that factory support was the last word, but
extremely slow in coming. As an alternative, many listers
would simultaneously cross check list recommendations with EAA Techical
and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the first to respond,
with a factory blessing weeks or even months later.
Just about every respondent encountered a major problem while building.
There were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans,
instructions, interpretation of the instructions, or plan/instruction
sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been avoided by posting
a question or researching list archives before cutting metal.
3. Rushing to meet the manufacturer's projected build
time.
Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a major problem,
with the average builder recovering within a day. Someone with
a lot more background in psychology than me will have to prove
it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a builder's mind to be
able to come up with a solution. At the same time, the problem
is out in the open for everyone to offer moral and/or technical
support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the ensuing interchange
will become a permanent part of the archives to help
builders in the future.
Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list membership
was beneficial, and recommending membership to new builders.
Good building!
William J. Naumuk EAA# 336752
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting
at 1/min.
Message 30
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: mike sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Just so's ya know. Gonna unsubscribe from the list in the next couple of
days since I've got a busy July on schedule. Heading for Eldorado Lake
(Kansas) on Mon. for a week to help prepare for and participate in
(read: enjoy myself thoroughly) our 19th annual Kansas Vietnam Veterans
& Family Reunion (July 14-16). Then got a week to get ready for the trip
to Mecca. Another Kansas 701 driver & I plan to have our planes parked
in the homebuilt camping area. If I'm at the plane drop by and say hi! I
will be doing my fair share of wandering also. Got a t-shirt with a
picture of my plane on the back, so still might be recognizable. Looking
forward to being able to put a face with some of the names that have
been on this list over the past several years.
Mike Sinclair N701TD "Boop-Boop-A-Doop"
Do Not Archive
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Paul, Purely anecdotal, I have been flying since about 1980. I have
experienced four in-flight complete engine stoppages. All were in "legitimate,"
manufactured, certified airplanes. None had anything to do with the ignition or
electrical systems. I owe a lot to my training because I, nor any of my
passengers nor the airplane, were physically harmed because of these failures.
An
airplane is a system. As such, there are a lot things that can go wrong. We
just need to be acutely aware that we are engaging in a somewhat risky endeavour
and to be ready to cope with whatever does go wrong.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
Do not archive
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Can't argue with that Paul. Aside from the pioneering spirit, I think what
leads people to choose the Corvair over the traditional Lycoming or Continental
is the fact that the latter are damned heavy! I have to admit, the decreased
reliability is a concern for me, especially when I consider the fact that my
children will someday fly with me.
Given the likelyhood that Lycoming will come up with a lighter weight engine
(NOT!), the Corvair seems a solid choice when trying to get more bang for your
buck in a light engine. I would very much like to see somone come up with
a 'Lycoming Style' ignition setup on the Corvair though. How about it all you
Gear Heads out there? Got any ideas?
Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote: It is not clear to me whether
Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system increases the reliability of the Corvair
engine or reduces it.
Since the "Dual" parts are not isolated from each other (they are connected at
the spark plugs and the battery/generator/voltage regulator) it is possible that
failures of any of the additional components could bring down the whole engine.
It is clear that the additional components naturally lead to more individual
component failures since there are more components. I don't know how many
of the component failure modes have been analyzed with regard to one failure
causing another part to not work properly. Without this analysis it is not
possible to know whether the increased complexity leads to improvement or deterioration
of the engine reliability.
In any event, failure of the battery, generator, voltage regulator, or any of
the related wiring and connectors could lead to an instant engine failure. This
is not supposed to happen in true aircraft engines because the dual isolated
magneto system doesn't rely on battery power to keep the engine running. That
leads me to believe the Corvair conversion, like all auto conversions, is more
likely to experience a complete in-flight power failure than a purpose built
aircraft engine.
Paul
XL Fuselage
That is correct. It uses a dual ignition distributor with dual coils and single
spark plugs.
http://www.flycorvaircom/distributor.html
Its all a matter of risk management and identifying an expectable level of risk.
Everything you do in life is a risk. Going to work this morning in these
hills with crazy drivers crossing the center line is definitely a risk. But it
was a risk I was willing to take to have the view out my back window. To me,
the view from my Corvair powered Zodiac will be worth the calculated risk.
-
Message 33
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Klaus Truemper <klaus@utdallas.edu>
Hi,
First note that I am a newcomer to the Zenith List.
Over the years, I have made several changes to the 601HDS design,
including wing root fairings, mounting of radiator in cowl, and
smaller engine cowl. I have had a number of inquiries
about this work. Recently I took time out, made photos, and
described it all on the website
http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/airplane.html
Please note that anyone using
the information does so at his/her own discretion and risk, and
no responsibility or liability is expressed or implied.
Bottom line, we are responsible for nothing.
If someone does not like some of the changes, then this is
perfectly okay, and I have no particular interest to argue about
the changes. In the design and construction of airplanes, there
typically are lots of differing opinions, as is sometimes evident
on the Zenith list web site.
Finally, I have written occasionally articles for the EAA Chapter 168
newsletter. Two of the articles, on mountain flying and
thunderstorms, may be of general interest. They are available on
http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Flying/flying.html
Best wishes for flying and enjoying the Zenith planes,
Klaus Truemper
--
Klaus Truemper
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science
University of Texas at Dallas
Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and
Computer Science EC31
P.O. Box 830688
Richardson, TX 75083-0688
(972) 883-2712
klaus@utdallas.edu
www.utdallas.edu/~klaus
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
I'm using a tooth counting tach, which counts the teeth on the ring gear.
It is totally separated from the elctrical system. For all the reasons you
just described. It works very nicely.
It is as Stewart Warner Deisel Engine tach that goes up to 3500 rpm.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
75 hours
>From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 07:24:55 -0700
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>A tach could easily kill an ignition...All it has to do is short the
>signal wire to ground and that ign will stop working.
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoak
>Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 7:02 AM
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" <planejim@bellsouth.net>
>
>List,
>
>I seem to remember that many years ago some of the VW powered homebuilts
>were using a certain type ( I think it was Westach - could be wrong here
>) of tach that were prone to shorting out someway and killing the
>ignition.Some airplanes went down because of it. I don't know any of the
>technical details so I can't help there. Just something that came to
>mind.
>Everybody be carefull!
>
>Jim Hoak
>
>----- Original Message -----
>Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 9:17 AM
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
> >
> > Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail
>the
> > ignition system. Though I might be wrong and will conceed the point
>if
> > someone could explain it to me.
> >
> >> Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair
> >> engine
> >>
> >>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
> >>
> >> Larry,
> >> ?
> > --------
> > W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> > 601XL Under Construction
> > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45162#45162
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Paul,
No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair
conversion. I'm flying one.
If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of
experts and those who have been flying for years?
On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine better
than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion
to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
75 hours
>From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
>
>It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
>increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it.
>
<<SNIP>>
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no
one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides, that's
because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for the cost
savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too
few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures per
capita against a certified engines, it fails more often. One thing is
clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the choice. That is
what is hurting the engine the most.
On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
>
> Paul,
>
> No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair
> conversion. I'm flying one.
>
> If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of
> experts and those who have been flying for years?
>
> On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine better
> than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
> discussion
> to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
>
> Phil Maxson
> 601XL/Corvair
> Northwest New Jersey
> 75 hours
>
> >From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
> >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
> >
> >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
> >increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it.
> >
> <<SNIP>>
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Corvair Bashing and other irritating, close-minded individuals... |
Sounds like we have another for the Lycoming side of the fence! No problem,
there's room for us all! : ) Just make sure you don't become one of those
you're harping on. You're correct, there are a few Corvair nuts that hurt the
group by posting before thinking, but they are by far the minority. For the
most part, Corvair buffs admit the shortcomings of the engine and knowingly accept
the tradeoff of hanging one on the front of their aircraft.
I have noticed there are quite a few 'Traditionalists' with the same bad attitude
as the Corvair nuts, especially in recent days. You mentioned the Corvair
failing more than the 'certified' engines, and we all know you're right.
However, that point does little to end the argument of which engine is better.
What is better? Owners of retractable gear airplanes often swear by them.
They tend to be faster, consume less fuel, etc., but statistics show they ARE
more susceptible to accidents. How do these facts answer the question, "Which
aircraft are better: Retractable or Fixed Gear?"
It seems many have taken "Safer" to mean "Better". If that is your standard,
please feel free to judge by it. Just accept that others have a different
standard. Corvair engines are lighter and cheaper. Hmm, could that be another
argument for "Better"? If those are your standards, then yes. Statistics
say it's safer to walk to work every day than to fly once a week. I'd still choose
flying EVERY day if I were able. Does this mean I'm nuts? No, I simply
chose a more dangerous mode of transportation because I LIKE it. Perhaps non-Lycoming
engine enthusiats come accross a little defensive because they're tired
of having to defend their choices?
Just my two cents...Bet I ticked some people off with it too, which is a sad
indication of the irritating minority lurking out there.
Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote: I know I am new to the list but this
corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides.
It has lots of downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason
most who choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the
data to prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if
you look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails
more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending
the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted
by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Paul,
No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair
conversion. I'm flying one.
If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of
experts and those who have been flying for years?
On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine better
than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion
to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
75 hours
>From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
>
>It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
I believe your position is perfectly reasonable. Car engine conversion
can be wonderful but the cost in getting there (both financially and in
reduced liability) can be large. My little piece in Kitplanes this month
details out the painful trials of the Soob ea 81. The problem is the
development curve. In other words when folks first start flying behind a
particular conversion not all the bugs have been worked out, simply
because not enough hours have been flown to show up all the issues.
In my Soob conversion it was valve guides and ignition systems in the
Corvair it seems crankshafts have been the big problem. All of which is
(or has been) resolvable but it take a lot of accumulated hours to find
all the issues.
I would suggest that not a lot of folks appreciate this when they first
get attracted to a particular engine conversion...Dollar signs (or lack
of them) are a big motivator.
For me when i sold my airplane I was as convinced as I could be the bugs
had been worked out in the engine department...But of course I can't be
sure.
Purely personally a mid time O200 would have been a far
better/cheaper/more reliable choice, but now the Zodiac I sold is well
sorted after 400 hours of flying.
It is easy to get emotionally attached to a conversion...A bit like the
second marriage one's selection criteria gets a lot more objective
second time round....:)
Frank
HDS 400 hours
Rv7a...Lycoming clone IO360....:)
Do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christopher
Smith
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:33 PM
I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It
seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of
downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who
choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to
prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you
look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it
fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude
when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson"
<pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Paul,
No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about
the Corvair
conversion. I'm flying one.
If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept
the input of
experts and those who have been flying for years?
On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one
engine better
than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
discussion
to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
75 hours
>From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
>
>It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition
system
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
What is it about the Corvair that brings this stuff out in people? I've
been on this list for 6 months and I have never seen the Subaru, Honda,
Harley, or VW attacked the way the Corvair is routinely. Some of the
posts on both side's of the issue have gotten kinda personal. Corvair
people were even asked to leave this forum once. What's the deal!!
John
Do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christopher
Smith
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 3:33 PM
I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It
seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of
downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who
choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to
prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you
look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it
fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude
when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Paul,
No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the
Corvair
conversion. I'm flying one.
If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input
of
experts and those who have been flying for years?
On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine
better
than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
discussion
to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
75 hours
>From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
>
>It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
John R. Hines
IT Manager
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
Rogers, AR 72756
Office: 479-878-2449
Mobile: 479-366-4783
Fax: 479-631-6224
John.Hines@craftontull.com
www.craftontull.com
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What is it about the Corvair that
brings
this stuff out in people? I’ve been on this list for 6
months and I
have never seen the Subaru, Honda, Harley, or VW attacked the way the
Corvair
is routinely. Some of the posts on both side’s of the issue
have
gotten kinda personal. Corvair people were even asked to leave
this forum
once. What’s the deal!! <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
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style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Do not archive
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14pt;
COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Verdana"
align=left>John R. Hines</TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=left>IT Manager</TD></TR><TR><TD
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #767374;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=left>John.Hines@craftontull.com</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle
height=10></TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE:
8pt; COLOR: #767374; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=left><br/>
Office: 479-878-2449 <br/>
Mobile: 479-366-4783 <br/>
Fax: 479-631-6224 </TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle
height=10></TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE:
7pt; COLOR: #767374; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=right><A
href="http://www.craftontull.com/">www.craftontull.com</A></TD></TR><TR
><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; COLOR: #767374;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=right>901 N. 47th
Street, Suite 200 ·Rogers, AR 72756</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right
height=40><A title="Visit our website for more information."
style="TEXT-DECORATION: none" href="http://www.craftontull.com/"
target=_blank><IMG
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border=0></A></TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;
FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #767374; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=justify>Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to
anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with
successful
solutions.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV><hr
size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Christopher Smith<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July 06,
2006 3:33
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">zenith-list@matronics.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Zenith-List:
Re:
Dynon on Corvair engine</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I know I am
new to the
list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no one can say the
corvair
has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides, that's because it's a car
engine.
But the reason most who choose it is for the cost savings. The engine
does not
have the data to prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will
wager
that if you look at the engine failures per capita against a certified
engines,
it fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as
rude
when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailquote><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On 7/6/06, <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>Phil
Maxson</span></b> <<a
href="mailto:pmaxpmax@hotmail.com">pmaxpmax@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>-->
Zenith-List
message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <<a
href="mailto:pmaxpmax@hotmail.com">pmaxpmax@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Paul</st1:PersonName>,<br>
<br>
No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the
Corvair <br>
conversion. I'm flying one.<br>
<br>
If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept
the
input of<br>
experts and those who have been flying for years?<br>
<br>
On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one
engine
better <br>
than another. In the future, could you please leave the
Corvair
discussion<br>
to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?<br>
<br>
Phil Maxson<br>
601XL/Corvair<br>
<st1:place w:st="on">Northwest New Jersey</st1:place><br>
75 hours<br>
<br>
>From: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Paul</st1:PersonName> Mulwitz
<<a
href="mailto:p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net">p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net</a>
><br>
href="mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com">zenith-list@matronics.com</a><b
r>
>To: <a
href="mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com">zenith-list@matronics.com</a><b
r>
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine<br>
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700<br>
><br>
>It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition
system<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Christopher W. E. Smith<br>
fly1m1<br>
<a href="http://ch-601xl.com">http://ch-601xl.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<BR><BR><FONT style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align="justify">This email and
any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for
the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This
message contains confidential information and is intended only for the
individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender
immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and
delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended
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Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601HDS Changes |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Welcome Klaus,
You've done the HDS proud. Was very pleased to see some really
innovative and worthwhile changes
to your 601. Don't often see images of the specific details that make a
difference. Well done!
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Klaus Truemper wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Klaus Truemper <klaus@utdallas.edu>
>
> Hi,
>
> First note that I am a newcomer to the Zenith List.
>
> Over the years, I have made several changes to the 601HDS design,
> including wing root fairings, mounting of radiator in cowl, and
> smaller engine cowl. I have had a number of inquiries
> about this work. Recently I took time out, made photos, and
> described it all on the website
>
> http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/airplane.html
>
>
> Klaus Truemper
>
Message 41
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Excellent read for perspective Bill
Especially for the newbies.
Larry McFarland
do not archive
Bill Naumuk wrote:
> All-
> Draft article attached.
> Bill
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> JULY 5, 2006
> EAA-
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please consider the following draft article for publication in an
> upcoming SA edition:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are no
> exception. Divide the world's
> population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find that
> there aren't that many "Birds"
> available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when the
> Wright brothers had to wait
> months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet
> builder's group, you can correspond
> instantaneously with other "Birds" building something similar to your
> project.
>
>
> Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. Things went
> acceptably well, so I
> maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With all
> the confidence of the
> hopelessly nave, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build myself
> (Or more accurately,
> mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and
> tried to sell the project.
>
> Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's site to
> builders who were flying
> and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral
> support, I was able to rebuild
> myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project
> and eventually recommended
> that I join the international builder's list.
>
>
>
>
>
> After participating on the builder's list for over a year I realized
> that I wasn't the only
> one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought it
> was important that SA readers
> be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my belief and
> responded to a
> questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What follows is
> a compilation of their responses:
>
> The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading the posts of
> others you can get
> a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished
> product. Forewarned of recurring
> problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of
> finished product limitations,
> you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and
> expectations before it's too late.
> 75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an
> average of 2 months after they
> had purchased their kit or plans.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major reason given
> for joining a list, even
> though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is the
> fact that the internet is acting
> as an alternative to face-to-face interaction.
>
>
>
>
>
> Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. Some listers
> are more comfortable
> remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the fray.
> Yes, fray. Don't forget, you're
> dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and
> sisters, and I guarantee you at
> times you'll fight like siblings!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for technical
> or social reasons"
> the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted
> macho response, because
> when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted
> that once friendships had been
> established, social communication was an added bonus.
>
>
>
> Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of technical
> advice. The common
> response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely
> slow in coming. As an
> alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list
> recommendations with EAA
> Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the first
> to respond, with a factory
> blessing weeks or even months later.
>
>
>
>
>
> Just about every respondent encountered a major problem while
> building. There
> were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans, instructions,
> interpretation of the instructions,
> or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been
> avoided by posting a question or
> researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet the
> manufacturer's projected
> build time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a major
> problem, with the average
> builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more background in
> psychology than me will
> have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a
> builder's mind to be able to come up
> with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open for
> everyone to offer moral and/or
> technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the
> ensuing interchange will become
> a permanent part of the archives to help builders in the future.
>
>
>
> Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list membership
> was beneficial,
> and recommending membership to new builders.
>
>
>
>
> Good building!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> William J. Naumuk EAA# 336752
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Hi, Chris, et al:
Sure, the Corvair engine has its share of downsides. So does every
other aero engine flying, including certificated ones. And that's the
beauty of the experimental category - we get to experiment, just as the
name implies, with various airframe and powerplant solutions.
So blanket statements like "...this corvair stuff is just dumb",
"...most who choose it is for the cost savings", and "Corvair people
come off as rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" are sure
to raise the ire of those of us who have done the research, looked at
the options, heard the word from on high, and made the decision to build
up one of these beautiful little powerplants from a formerly automotive
Corvair.
In my case, I first chose the engine (cost was NOT a factor), and then
went out looking for the right airframe to stick on the back of it. I'm
more than convinced of its reliability and its suitably to haul my ample
butt around, having read the conversion manual, talked to other Corvair
flyers about their experiences, and spent considerable time with the man
who has invested a considerable amount of his life bringing the engine
to the aviation market.
In this little corner of aviation, blanket statements get shot down with
alarming regularity given the variables inherent in each individual
installation. And those statements do little to further the legitimate
educational dialogue, but tend to just polarize folks into "pro" and
"anti" camps. (Besides, it's just not friendly to imply that someone's
an idiot after making an informed choice, when your own research is a
bit lacking.)
And, I've had a forced landing due to an exhaust valve breaking up in a
Lycoming O-360A4K. I do know of a couple of Corvair engines that failed
in flight, but I also know that putting excessive loads on any certified
or non-certified crankshaft will eventually cause a failure. Look at
the rash of recent ADs concerning crankshaft retirement from Lycoming!
So, forgive us if we defend our engine choice with passion. To do
otherwise would indicate that we're really not capable of independent
thought, and are content to only fly behind brand C or brand L engines
for the remainder of our dull, uninspired, sheep-like lives.
Rick Lindstrom
Corvair / 601XL
Christopher Smith wrote:
> I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It
> seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of
> downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who
> choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data
> to prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that
> if you look at the engine failures per capita against a certified
> engines, it fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people
> come off as rude when defending the choice. That is what is hurting
> the engine the most.
>
> On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com <mailto:pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson"
> <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com <mailto:pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>>
>
> Paul,
>
> No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the
> Corvair
> conversion. I'm flying one.
>
> If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the
> input of
> experts and those who have been flying for years?
>
> On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine
> better
> than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
> discussion
> to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
>
> Phil Maxson
> 601XL/Corvair
> Northwest New Jersey
> 75 hours
>
> >From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net
> <mailto:p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>>
> <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
> >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
> >
> >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
>
>
> --
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Bashing and other irritating, close-minded individuals... |
As a matter of fact I have been looking into the corvair engine. As a
possible buyer, I am put off by those trying to promote the corvair engine.
I have seen questions ask, and the ones with the answers get attitudes about
the question ask. You tell me, should a possible customer be made to feel
that way? "Sounds like we have another for the Lycoming side of the fence!"
No you have someone wanting info on the corvair!
On 7/6/06, Tom and Bren Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
>
> Sounds like we have another for the Lycoming side of the fence! No
> problem, there's room for us all! : ) Just make sure you don't become one
> of those you're harping on. You're correct, there are a few Corvair nuts
> that hurt the group by posting before thinking, but they are by far the
> minority. For the most part, Corvair buffs admit the shortcomings of the
> engine and knowingly accept the tradeoff of hanging one on the front of
> their aircraft.
> I have noticed there are quite a few 'Traditionalists' with the same
> bad attitude as the Corvair nuts, especially in recent days. You mentioned
> the Corvair failing more than the 'certified' engines, and we all know
> you're right. However, that point does little to end the argument of which
> engine is better. What is better? Owners of retractable gear airplanes
> often swear by them. They tend to be faster, consume less fuel, etc., but
> statistics show they ARE more susceptible to accidents. How do these facts
> answer the question, "Which aircraft are better: Retractable or Fixed Gear?"
> It seems many have taken "Safer" to mean "Better". If that is your
> standard, please feel free to judge by it. Just accept that others have a
> different standard. Corvair engines are lighter and cheaper. Hmm, could
> that be another argument for "Better"? If those are your standards, then
> yes. Statistics say it's safer to walk to work every day than to fly once a
> week. I'd still choose flying EVERY day if I were able. Does this mean I'm
> nuts? No, I simply chose a more dangerous mode of transportation because I
> LIKE it. Perhaps non-Lycoming engine enthusiats come accross a little
> defensive because they're tired of having to defend their choices?
> Just my two cents...Bet I ticked some people off with it too, which is
> a sad indication of the irritating minority lurking out there.
>
>
> *Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems
> no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides,
> that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for
> the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's
> reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the
> engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often.
> One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the
> choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
>
> On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the
> > Corvair
> > conversion. I'm flying one.
> >
> > If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input
> > of
> > experts and those who have been flying for years?
> >
> > On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine
> > better
> > than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
> > discussion
> > to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
> >
> > Phil Maxson
> > 601XL/Corvair
> > Northwest New Jersey
> > 75 hours
> >
> > >From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
> > >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
> > >
> > >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
WOW! I am planning on using a Corvair engine, but at no time have I came
off rude when talking to anyone in this group about the engine. Your statement
is what is RUDE! If you don't have anything nice to say, go join the
LYCOMING PEOPLE group and be rude there. No, I am not defending my choice of
engine. I could care less what you think of my choice. That is why it is my
choice. I am defending the fact that not ALL Corvair people are RUDE!
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Flanging tool advice |
I bought an edge flanging tool from Aircraft Spruce... the kind with the
two rollers on a straight handle. I want to use it to slightly curl the
edge of some of the skins before rivetting so that the edge sits down
tight. There are no directions with the tool and my experiments with
pieces of scrap have produced a wavy edge rather than the desired
effect. Anybody out there know the secret to using this tool
successfully? I'd appreciate the help,
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / wings
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
"this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about it...Not
that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as rude...That is what
is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's post. If I wanted to
knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But I don't, in fact I have
a link to the corvair website. If I felt the engine was bad I would not link
to it. I see now that the corvair folks are not willing to help me
understand the engine I have an interest in. When that happens, I look
elsewhere. I will from now on post questions to my website about the corvair
to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting to help me with corvair can post a
comment on the site. Sorry for getting this started, I thought that I could
get help here.
On 7/6/06, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Chris, et al:
>
> Sure, the Corvair engine has its share of downsides. So does every other
> aero engine flying, including certificated ones. And that's the beauty of
> the experimental category - we get to experiment, just as the name implies,
> with various airframe and powerplant solutions.
>
> So blanket statements like "...this corvair stuff is just dumb", "...most
> who choose it is for the cost savings", and "Corvair people come off as
> rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" are sure to raise the
> ire of those of us who have done the research, looked at the options, heard
> the word from on high, and made the decision to build up one of these
> beautiful little powerplants from a formerly automotive Corvair.
>
> In my case, I first chose the engine (cost was NOT a factor), and then
> went out looking for the right airframe to stick on the back of it. I'm
> more than convinced of its reliability and its suitably to haul my ample
> butt around, having read the conversion manual, talked to other Corvair
> flyers about their experiences, and spent considerable time with the man who
> has invested a considerable amount of his life bringing the engine to the
> aviation market.
>
> In this little corner of aviation, blanket statements get shot down with
> alarming regularity given the variables inherent in each individual
> installation. And those statements do little to further the legitimate
> educational dialogue, but tend to just polarize folks into "pro" and "anti"
> camps. (Besides, it's just not friendly to imply that someone's an idiot
> after making an informed choice, when your own research is a bit lacking.)
>
> And, I've had a forced landing due to an exhaust valve breaking up in a
> Lycoming O-360A4K. I do know of a couple of Corvair engines that failed in
> flight, but I also know that putting excessive loads on any certified or
> non-certified crankshaft will eventually cause a failure. Look at the rash
> of recent ADs concerning crankshaft retirement from Lycoming!
>
> So, forgive us if we defend our engine choice with passion. To do
> otherwise would indicate that we're really not capable of independent
> thought, and are content to only fly behind brand C or brand L engines for
> the remainder of our dull, uninspired, sheep-like lives.
>
> Rick Lindstrom
> Corvair / 601XL
>
>
> Christopher Smith wrote:
>
> I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems
> no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides,
> that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for
> the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's
> reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the
> engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often.
> One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the
> choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
>
> On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the
> > Corvair
> > conversion. I'm flying one.
> >
> > If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input
> > of
> > experts and those who have been flying for years?
> >
> > On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine
> > better
> > than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
> > discussion
> > to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
> >
> > Phil Maxson
> > 601XL/Corvair
> > Northwest New Jersey
> > 75 hours
> >
> > >From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
> > >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
> > >
> > >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
At no time did I say anything about your choice. I was hoping you guys would
help me with mine. Again, Sorry & enjoy the dvd.
On 7/6/06, LHusky@aol.com <LHusky@aol.com> wrote:
>
> WOW! I am planning on using a Corvair engine, but at no time have I came
> off rude when talking to anyone in this group about the engine. Your
> statement is what is RUDE! If you don't have anything nice to say, go join
> the LYCOMING PEOPLE group and be rude there. No, I am not defending my
> choice of engine. I could care less what you think of my choice. That is
> why it is my choice. I am defending the fact that not ALL Corvair people
> are RUDE!
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Bashing and other irritating, close-minded individuals... |
Then you've come to the right spot! Your first post most certainly had a different
'feel' to it. : ) Thanks for the clarification. I would recommend posting
the questions the 'other guys' seem to be avoiding to the list. I guarrantee
you'll get answers. As with all things internet related, filter them with
a healthy dose of common sense.
Hope you find what you're looking for...
Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote: As a matter of fact I have been looking
into the corvair engine. As a possible buyer, I am put off by those trying
to promote the corvair engine. I have seen questions ask, and the ones with
the answers get attitudes about the question ask. You tell me, should a possible
customer be made to feel that way? "Sounds like we have another for the Lycoming
side of the fence!" No you have someone wanting info on the corvair!
On 7/6/06, Tom and Bren Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com> wrote: Sounds
like we have another for the Lycoming side of the fence! No problem, there's
room for us all! : ) Just make sure you don't become one of those you're harping
on. You're correct, there are a few Corvair nuts that hurt the group by
posting before thinking, but they are by far the minority. For the most part,
Corvair buffs admit the shortcomings of the engine and knowingly accept the
tradeoff of hanging one on the front of their aircraft.
I have noticed there are quite a few 'Traditionalists' with the same bad attitude
as the Corvair nuts, especially in recent days. You mentioned the Corvair
failing more than the 'certified' engines, and we all know you're right.
However, that point does little to end the argument of which engine is better.
What is better? Owners of retractable gear airplanes often swear by them.
They tend to be faster, consume less fuel, etc., but statistics show they ARE
more susceptible to accidents. How do these facts answer the question, "Which
aircraft are better: Retractable or Fixed Gear?"
It seems many have taken "Safer" to mean "Better". If that is your standard,
please feel free to judge by it. Just accept that others have a different
standard. Corvair engines are lighter and cheaper. Hmm, could that be another
argument for "Better"? If those are your standards, then yes. Statistics
say it's safer to walk to work every day than to fly once a week. I'd still choose
flying EVERY day if I were able. Does this mean I'm nuts? No, I simply
chose a more dangerous mode of transportation because I LIKE it. Perhaps non-Lycoming
engine enthusiats come accross a little defensive because they're tired
of having to defend their choices?
Just my two cents...Bet I ticked some people off with it too, which is a
sad indication of the irritating minority lurking out there.
Christopher Smith < ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote: I know I am new to the list but this
corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides.
It has lots of downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the
reason most who choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the
data to prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if
you look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails
more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending
the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com > wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted
by: "Phil Maxson" < pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Paul,
No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair
conversion. I'm flying one.
If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of
experts and those who have been flying for years?
On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine better
than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion
to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
75 hours
>From: Paul Mulwitz < p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
>
>It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
I think some are missing the real point of this list!!!!!! Good
information is what we need.
First and foremost we are Pilots pursuing a passion, to build and fly
our own airplane. It doesn't make one bit of difference to me what
engine you have up front, you are a fellow builder, period! This list
has provided valuable information to me from time and time and to
several of my friends. When someone ask for information on a specific
engine, instruments, whatever, that's what they need. Unless you have
significant experience in that field your opinion on that specific
question is probably not needed or wanted. Paul's opinion on auto
conversions does not help someone looking for an answer to a serious
question. I will be using a corvair, I have never said it is the best
choice but for me personally I think auto conversions help make it
affordable for a lot more people. The Corvair people I know are far from
rude, William Wynne, Mark Langford and numerous others share everything
to help make our choice as safe as it can be and it is based on flying
experience, not opinion. If you choose a Lycoming or auto conversion you
still need good information to build an airplane unless you have been
there before with that specific engine choice. Last point! Years ago, I
owned a Tiger with a 180 hp Lycoming, it didn't help one damn bit that
it was certified, it quit and cost a lot to get it repaired. Lycoming
did accept the responsibility and reimbursed me months later.
Clyde Barcus
601XL, Corvair Powered
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Smith
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It
seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of
downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who
choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to
prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you
look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it
fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude
when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
When looking for help, one does not usually run into the room and shout, "You're
all rude, and your engines fail more than those other ones!". Just aks,
and you'll get it. :)
Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote: "this corvair stuff is just dumb"
meant the Back and forth about it...Not that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people
come off as rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" Is true.
Read phil's post. If I wanted to knock the corvair, I would do so on my website.
But I don't, in fact I have a link to the corvair website. If I felt the engine
was bad I would not link to it. I see now that the corvair folks are not
willing to help me understand the engine I have an interest in. When that happens,
I look elsewhere. I will from now on post questions to my website about the
corvair to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting to help me with corvair can
post a comment on the site. Sorry for getting this started, I thought that I could
get help here.
On 7/6/06, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com> wrote: Hi, Chris,
et al:
Sure, the Corvair engine has its share of downsides. So does every other aero
engine flying, including certificated ones. And that's the beauty of the experimental
category - we get to experiment, just as the name implies, with various
airframe and powerplant solutions.
So blanket statements like "...this corvair stuff is just dumb", "...most who
choose it is for the cost savings", and "Corvair people come off as rude...That
is what is hurting the engine the most" are sure to raise the ire of those of
us who have done the research, looked at the options, heard the word from on
high, and made the decision to build up one of these beautiful little powerplants
from a formerly automotive Corvair.
In my case, I first chose the engine (cost was NOT a factor), and then went out
looking for the right airframe to stick on the back of it. I'm more than convinced
of its reliability and its suitably to haul my ample butt around, having
read the conversion manual, talked to other Corvair flyers about their experiences,
and spent considerable time with the man who has invested a considerable
amount of his life bringing the engine to the aviation market.
In this little corner of aviation, blanket statements get shot down with alarming
regularity given the variables inherent in each individual installation.
And those statements do little to further the legitimate educational dialogue,
but tend to just polarize folks into "pro" and "anti" camps. (Besides, it's
just not friendly to imply that someone's an idiot after making an informed choice,
when your own research is a bit lacking.)
And, I've had a forced landing due to an exhaust valve breaking up in a Lycoming
O-360A4K. I do know of a couple of Corvair engines that failed in flight,
but I also know that putting excessive loads on any certified or non-certified
crankshaft will eventually cause a failure. Look at the rash of recent ADs concerning
crankshaft retirement from Lycoming!
So, forgive us if we defend our engine choice with passion. To do otherwise would
indicate that we're really not capable of independent thought, and are content
to only fly behind brand C or brand L engines for the remainder of our dull,
uninspired, sheep-like lives.
Rick Lindstrom
Corvair / 601XL
Christopher Smith wrote:
I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no one
can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides, that's because
it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for the cost savings.
The engine does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too few are
flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures per capita against
a certified engines, it fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair
people come off as rude when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the
engine the most.
On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message
posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Paul,
No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair
conversion. I'm flying one.
If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of
experts and those who have been flying for years?
On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine better
than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion
to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
75 hours
>From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
>
>It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Me thinks he complains too loudly......Mis quote from Willie the Shake.
8*)
Easy guys we are ALL just trying to learn from one another rather than
re-inventing the wheel everytime someone get the building bug. KABONG
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: LHusky@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
WOW! I am planning on using a Corvair engine, but at no time have I
came off rude when talking to anyone in this group about the engine.
Your statement is what is RUDE! If you don't have anything nice to say,
go join the LYCOMING PEOPLE group and be rude there. No, I am not
defending my choice of engine. I could care less what you think of my
choice. That is why it is my choice. I am defending the fact that not
ALL Corvair people are RUDE!
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" <daberti@sbcglobal.net>
Not on a Rotax!
-----Original Message-----
A tach could easily kill an ignition...All it has to do is short the
signal wire to ground and that ign will stop working.
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Bashing and other irritating, close-minded individuals... |
Thank you Tom, But Mr. Maxson post was insulting to someone who just wanted
info. Now I know Mr.Maxson's post was not pointed my way but we all just
wanted to understand.
On 7/6/06, Tom and Bren Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
>
> Then you've come to the right spot! Your first post most certainly
> had a different 'feel' to it. : ) Thanks for the clarification. I would
> recommend posting the questions the 'other guys' seem to be avoiding to the
> list. I guarrantee you'll get answers. As with all things internet
> related, filter them with a healthy dose of common sense.
> Hope you find what you're looking for...
>
>
> *Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> As a matter of fact I have been looking into the corvair engine. As a
> possible buyer, I am put off by those trying to promote the corvair engine.
> I have seen questions ask, and the ones with the answers get attitudes about
> the question ask. You tell me, should a possible customer be made to feel
> that way? "Sounds like we have another for the Lycoming side of the fence!"
> No you have someone wanting info on the corvair!
>
> On 7/6/06, Tom and Bren Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like we have another for the Lycoming side of the fence! No
> > problem, there's room for us all! : ) Just make sure you don't become one
> > of those you're harping on. You're correct, there are a few Corvair nuts
> > that hurt the group by posting before thinking, but they are by far the
> > minority. For the most part, Corvair buffs admit the shortcomings of the
> > engine and knowingly accept the tradeoff of hanging one on the front of
> > their aircraft.
> > I have noticed there are quite a few 'Traditionalists' with the same
> > bad attitude as the Corvair nuts, especially in recent days. You mentioned
> > the Corvair failing more than the 'certified' engines, and we all know
> > you're right. However, that point does little to end the argument of which
> > engine is better. What is better? Owners of retractable gear airplanes
> > often swear by them. They tend to be faster, consume less fuel, etc., but
> > statistics show they ARE more susceptible to accidents. How do these facts
> > answer the question, "Which aircraft are better: Retractable or Fixed Gear?"
> > It seems many have taken "Safer" to mean "Better". If that is your
> > standard, please feel free to judge by it. Just accept that others have a
> > different standard. Corvair engines are lighter and cheaper. Hmm, could
> > that be another argument for "Better"? If those are your standards, then
> > yes. Statistics say it's safer to walk to work every day than to fly once
a
> > week. I'd still choose flying EVERY day if I were able. Does this mean I'm
> > nuts? No, I simply chose a more dangerous mode of transportation because I
> > LIKE it. Perhaps non-Lycoming engine enthusiats come accross a little
> > defensive because they're tired of having to defend their choices?
> > Just my two cents...Bet I ticked some people off with it too, which
> > is a sad indication of the irritating minority lurking out there.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *Christopher Smith < ch601xl@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> > I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It
> > seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of
> > downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose
> > it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's
> > reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the
> > engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often.
> > One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the
> > choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
> >
> > On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com
> > > >
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the
> > > Corvair
> > > conversion. I'm flying one.
> > >
> > > If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the
> > > input of
> > > experts and those who have been flying for years?
> > >
> > > On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine
> > > better
> > > than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
> > > discussion
> > > to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
> > >
> > > Phil Maxson
> > > 601XL/Corvair
> > > Northwest New Jersey
> > > 75 hours
> > >
> > > >From: Paul Mulwitz < p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> > > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
> > > >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
> > > >
> > > >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Christopher W. E. Smith
> > fly1m1
> > http://ch-601xl.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Paul's opinion on auto conversions does not help someone looking for an
answer to a serious question. Really, Cus I have the same question! He said
" It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it." Did anyone
answer? No. Did he get ripped a new one? Yes. "No offense intended, but you
are showing your ignorance about the Corvair conversion. I'm flying one.
If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of
experts and those who have been flying for years?
On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine better
than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion
to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
On 7/6/06, Clyde Barcus <barcusc@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> *I think some are missing the real point of this list!!!!!! Good
> information is what we need.*
> **
> First and foremost we are Pilots pursuing a passion, to build and fly our
> own airplane. It doesn't make one bit of difference to me what engine you
> have up front, you are a fellow builder, period! This list has provided
> valuable information to me from time and time and to several of my friends.
> When someone ask for information on a specific engine, instruments,
> whatever, that's what they need. Unless you have significant experience in
> that field your opinion on that specific question is probably not needed or
> wanted. Paul's opinion on auto conversions does not help someone looking for
> an answer to a serious question. I will be using a corvair, I have never
> said it is the best choice but for me personally I think auto conversions
> help make it affordable for a lot more people. The Corvair people I know are
> far from rude, William Wynne, Mark Langford and numerous others share
> everything to help make our choice as safe as it can be and it is based on
> flying experience, not opinion. If you choose a Lycoming or auto conversion
> you still need good information to build an airplane unless you have been
> there before with that specific engine choice. Last point! Years ago, I
> owned a Tiger with a 180 hp Lycoming, it didn't help one damn bit that it
> was certified, it quit and cost a lot to get it repaired. Lycoming did
> accept the responsibility and reimbursed me months later.
>
> Clyde Barcus
> 601XL, Corvair Powered
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 4:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>
>
> I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems
> no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides,
> that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for
> the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's
> reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the
> engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often.
> One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the
> choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
"Just aks, and you'll get it. :)" The question has been ask. Still no
reponse.
On 7/6/06, Tom and Bren Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
>
> When looking for help, one does not usually run into the room and
> shout, "You're all rude, and your engines fail more than those other
> ones!". Just aks, and you'll get it. :)
>
>
> *Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> "this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about it...Not
> that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as rude...That is what
> is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's post. If I wanted to
> knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But I don't, in fact I have
> a link to the corvair website. If I felt the engine was bad I would not link
> to it. I see now that the corvair folks are not willing to help me
> understand the engine I have an interest in. When that happens, I look
> elsewhere. I will from now on post questions to my website about the corvair
> to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting to help me with corvair can post a
> comment on the site. Sorry for getting this started, I thought that I could
> get help here.
>
> On 7/6/06, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Chris, et al:
> >
> > Sure, the Corvair engine has its share of downsides. So does every
> > other aero engine flying, including certificated ones. And that's the
> > beauty of the experimental category - we get to experiment, just as the name
> > implies, with various airframe and powerplant solutions.
> >
> > So blanket statements like "...this corvair stuff is just dumb",
> > "...most who choose it is for the cost savings", and "Corvair people come
> > off as rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" are sure to raise
> > the ire of those of us who have done the research, looked at the options,
> > heard the word from on high, and made the decision to build up one of these
> > beautiful little powerplants from a formerly automotive Corvair.
> >
> > In my case, I first chose the engine (cost was NOT a factor), and then
> > went out looking for the right airframe to stick on the back of it. I'm
> > more than convinced of its reliability and its suitably to haul my ample
> > butt around, having read the conversion manual, talked to other Corvair
> > flyers about their experiences, and spent considerable time with the man who
> > has invested a considerable amount of his life bringing the engine to the
> > aviation market.
> >
> > In this little corner of aviation, blanket statements get shot down with
> > alarming regularity given the variables inherent in each individual
> > installation. And those statements do little to further the legitimate
> > educational dialogue, but tend to just polarize folks into "pro" and "anti"
> > camps. (Besides, it's just not friendly to imply that someone's an idiot
> > after making an informed choice, when your own research is a bit lacking.)
> >
> > And, I've had a forced landing due to an exhaust valve breaking up in a
> > Lycoming O-360A4K. I do know of a couple of Corvair engines that failed in
> > flight, but I also know that putting excessive loads on any certified or
> > non-certified crankshaft will eventually cause a failure. Look at the rash
> > of recent ADs concerning crankshaft retirement from Lycoming!
> >
> > So, forgive us if we defend our engine choice with passion. To do
> > otherwise would indicate that we're really not capable of independent
> > thought, and are content to only fly behind brand C or brand L engines for
> > the remainder of our dull, uninspired, sheep-like lives.
> >
> > Rick Lindstrom
> > Corvair / 601XL
> >
> >
> > Christopher Smith wrote:
> >
> > I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It
> > seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of
> > downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose
> > it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's
> > reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the
> > engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often.
> > One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the
> > choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
> >
> > On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com
> > >
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the
> > Corvair
> > conversion. I'm flying one.
> >
> > If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input
> > of
> > experts and those who have been flying for years?
> >
> > On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine
> > better
> > than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
> > discussion
> > to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
> >
> > Phil Maxson
> > 601XL/Corvair
> > Northwest New Jersey
> > 75 hours
> >
> > >From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> >
> > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
> > >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
> > >
> > >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 56
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
If you don't find enough information at FlyCorvair.Com, check out the
CorvairCraft list:
search the CorvAircraft archives at
http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp
Other CorvAircraft list info is at
http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Smith
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
"this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about
it...Not that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as
rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's
post. If I wanted to knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But
I don't, in fact I have a link to the corvair website. If I felt the
engine was bad I would not link to it. I see now that the corvair folks
are not willing to help me understand the engine I have an interest in.
When that happens, I look elsewhere. I will from now on post questions
to my website about the corvair to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting
to help me with corvair can post a comment on the site. Sorry for
getting this started, I thought that I could get help here.
Message 57
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Larry-
I'm glad it's over with. I have enough work to do on the garanger before
I run out of vacation as it is!
Electric and gas completed, 2-1/2 of 4 walls covered. No doubt going
into hock big time rounding up the siding tomorrow.
2 of the 3 workbenches upstairs, along with the table saw. Have to have
the interior pretty much complete and the rest of the benches/tools moved
before my son goes back to work Monday,
This is vacation??
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:35 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Excellent read for perspective Bill
> Especially for the newbies.
>
> Larry McFarland
> do not archive
>
>
> Bill Naumuk wrote:
>
>> All-
>> Draft article attached.
>> Bill
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> JULY 5, 2006
>> EAA-
>> Please consider the following draft article for publication in an
>> upcoming SA edition:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are no exception.
>> Divide the world's
>> population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find that
>> there aren't that many "Birds"
>> available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when the
>> Wright brothers had to wait
>> months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet builder's
>> group, you can correspond
>> instantaneously with other "Birds" building something similar to your
>> project.
>> Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. Things went
>> acceptably well, so I
>> maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With all the
>> confidence of the
>> hopelessly nave, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build myself
>> (Or more accurately,
>> mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and tried
>> to sell the project.
>>
>> Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's site to
>> builders who were flying
>> and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral
>> support, I was able to rebuild
>> myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project and
>> eventually recommended
>> that I join the international builder's list.
>> After participating on the builder's list for over a year I realized that
>> I wasn't the only
>> one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought it was
>> important that SA readers
>> be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my belief and
>> responded to a questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What
>> follows is a compilation of their responses:
>>
>> The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading the posts of
>> others you can get
>> a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished
>> product. Forewarned of recurring
>> problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of
>> finished product limitations,
>> you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and
>> expectations before it's too late.
>> 75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an
>> average of 2 months after they
>> had purchased their kit or plans.
>> Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major reason given for
>> joining a list, even
>> though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is the
>> fact that the internet is acting
>> as an alternative to face-to-face interaction.
>> Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. Some listers are
>> more comfortable
>> remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the fray. Yes,
>> fray. Don't forget, you're
>> dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and sisters,
>> and I guarantee you at
>> times you'll fight like siblings!
>> When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for technical or
>> social reasons"
>> the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted macho
>> response, because
>> when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted that
>> once friendships had been
>> established, social communication was an added bonus.
>> Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of technical advice.
>> The common
>> response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely slow
>> in coming. As an
>> alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list
>> recommendations with EAA
>> Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the first to
>> respond, with a factory
>> blessing weeks or even months later.
>> Just about every respondent encountered a major problem while building.
>> There
>> were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans, instructions,
>> interpretation of the instructions,
>> or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been avoided
>> by posting a question or
>> researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet the
>> manufacturer's projected
>> build time.
>> Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a major problem,
>> with the average
>> builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more background in
>> psychology than me will
>> have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a builder's
>> mind to be able to come up
>> with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open for
>> everyone to offer moral and/or
>> technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the
>> ensuing interchange will become
>> a permanent part of the archives to help builders in the future.
>> Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list membership was
>> beneficial,
>> and recommending membership to new builders.
>> Good building!
>>
>>
>>
>> William J. Naumuk EAA# 336752
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Thank you. I have read alot on the corvair website by WW. I will have to
check out CorvAircraft's website for it is new to me. I was just asking
about info I could not find on the corvair site. But trust me, I have
learned my lesson, & will save Corvair questions for my own site. Thank you
again for your help.
On 7/6/06, Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote:
>
> If you don't find enough information at FlyCorvair.Com, check out the
> CorvairCraft list:
> search the CorvAircraft archives at
> http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp
> Other CorvAircraft list info is at
> http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:14 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>
> "this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about it...Not
> that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as rude...That is what
> is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's post. If I wanted to
> knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But I don't, in fact I have
> a link to the corvair website. If I felt the engine was bad I would not link
> to it. I see now that the corvair folks are not willing to help me
> understand the engine I have an interest in. When that happens, I look
> elsewhere. I will from now on post questions to my website about the corvair
> to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting to help me with corvair can post a
> comment on the site. Sorry for getting this started, I thought that I could
> get help here.
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Upon your suggestion, Chris, I went back and read Phil's post again.
Yep, he took offense at a prior post. And, he responded to what he
perceived as an attack on the wisdom of flying behind a Corvair.
I know Phil. He's not a bad guy. And he'll even pick up a lunch tab
occasionally. But he IS from New Jersey. So you have to cut him a bit
a slack. ;-)
You are in the right place to ask questions and get valid responses.
But lumping all Corvair guys together as to their engine motivations
and attitudes does tend to chafe a bit, and really doesn't help move the
ball down the field for anyone.
Well, I'm off to my local biker bar to ask the other fine patrons why
their Harleys suck so badly when compared to the latest in crotch
rockets from Japan and the European Union...
Again - ;-)
Rick
Christopher Smith wrote:
> "this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about
> it...Not that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as
> rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read
> phil's post. If I wanted to knock the corvair, I would do so on my
> website. But I don't, in fact I have a link to the corvair website. If
> I felt the engine was bad I would not link to it. I see now that the
> corvair folks are not willing to help me understand the engine I have
> an interest in. When that happens, I look elsewhere. I will from now
> on post questions to my website about the corvair to keep the list
> clear. Anyone wanting to help me with corvair can post a comment on
> the site. Sorry for getting this started, I thought that I could get
> help here.
>
> On 7/6/06, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com
> <mailto:tigerrick@mindspring.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi, Chris, et al:
>
> Sure, the Corvair engine has its share of downsides. So does
> every other aero engine flying, including certificated ones. And
> that's the beauty of the experimental category - we get to
> experiment, just as the name implies, with various airframe and
> powerplant solutions.
>
> So blanket statements like "...this corvair stuff is just dumb",
> "...most who choose it is for the cost savings", and "Corvair
> people come off as rude...That is what is hurting the engine the
> most" are sure to raise the ire of those of us who have done the
> research, looked at the options, heard the word from on high, and
> made the decision to build up one of these beautiful little
> powerplants from a formerly automotive Corvair.
>
> In my case, I first chose the engine (cost was NOT a factor), and
> then went out looking for the right airframe to stick on the back
> of it. I'm more than convinced of its reliability and its
> suitably to haul my ample butt around, having read the conversion
> manual, talked to other Corvair flyers about their experiences,
> and spent considerable time with the man who has invested a
> considerable amount of his life bringing the engine to the
> aviation market.
>
> In this little corner of aviation, blanket statements get shot
> down with alarming regularity given the variables inherent in each
> individual installation. And those statements do little to
> further the legitimate educational dialogue, but tend to just
> polarize folks into "pro" and "anti" camps. (Besides, it's just
> not friendly to imply that someone's an idiot after making an
> informed choice, when your own research is a bit lacking.)
>
> And, I've had a forced landing due to an exhaust valve breaking up
> in a Lycoming O-360A4K. I do know of a couple of Corvair engines
> that failed in flight, but I also know that putting excessive
> loads on any certified or non-certified crankshaft will eventually
> cause a failure. Look at the rash of recent ADs concerning
> crankshaft retirement from Lycoming!
>
> So, forgive us if we defend our engine choice with passion. To do
> otherwise would indicate that we're really not capable of
> independent thought, and are content to only fly behind brand C or
> brand L engines for the remainder of our dull, uninspired,
> sheep-like lives.
>
> Rick Lindstrom
> Corvair / 601XL
>
>
> Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>> I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb.
>> It seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has
>> lots of downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the
>> reason most who choose it is for the cost savings. The engine
>> does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too few are
>> flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures
>> per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often. One
>> thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending
>> the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
>>
>> On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com
>> <mailto:pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson"
>> <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com <mailto:pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>>
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about
>> the Corvair
>> conversion. I'm flying one.
>>
>> If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept
>> the input of
>> experts and those who have been flying for years?
>>
>> On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one
>> engine better
>> than another. In the future, could you please leave the
>> Corvair discussion
>> to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
>>
>> Phil Maxson
>> 601XL/Corvair
>> Northwest New Jersey
>> 75 hours
>>
>>>From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net
>> <mailto:p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>>
>> <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
>>>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
>>>
>>>It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition
>> system
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christopher W. E. Smith
>> fly1m1
>> http://ch-601xl.com
>
>
> --
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
Message 60
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|
| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool advice |
Ed-
I had the same tool and attempted the same trick as you're trying to
perform.
The answer is, you'd better get it right the first time, because the
metal 1. Stretches and 2. Starts curling up, the same way as a piece of
paper will if you run it over the edge of a table. Take one pass with
the tool and quit. I always drew the tool toward me rather than pushed
it away.
The technique works OK on short runs, but I guarantee you'll get
into trouble if you try to do, say, the spanwise edge of a wing skin.
Bill
do not archive?
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:13 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Flanging tool advice
I bought an edge flanging tool from Aircraft Spruce... the kind with
the two rollers on a straight handle. I want to use it to slightly curl
the edge of some of the skins before rivetting so that the edge sits
down tight. There are no directions with the tool and my experiments
with pieces of scrap have produced a wavy edge rather than the desired
effect. Anybody out there know the secret to using this tool
successfully? I'd appreciate the help,
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / wings
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool advice |
Thanks, I was afraid of that. I just hoped there was a trick I had
missed. I'll revert to plan "B" which is to take a 2x4, cut a
length-wise saw kerf along one of the 1.5" sides and use that to put a
gentle bend along the entire edge of the skin at once. Damn! I hate when
there's no GEE WHIZ in the gee whiz tool.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging tool advice
Ed-
I had the same tool and attempted the same trick as you're trying
to perform.
The answer is, you'd better get it right the first time, because
the metal 1. Stretches and 2. Starts curling up, the same way as a piece
of paper will if you run it over the edge of a table. Take one pass with
the tool and quit. I always drew the tool toward me rather than pushed
it away.
The technique works OK on short runs, but I guarantee you'll get
into trouble if you try to do, say, the spanwise edge of a wing skin.
Bill
do not archive?
Message 62
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be one
soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding on
what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people on
this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I will ask
lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank you for
the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your words on
the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way!
On 7/6/06, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Upon your suggestion, Chris, I went back and read Phil's post again.
>
> Yep, he took offense at a prior post. And, he responded to what he
> perceived as an attack on the wisdom of flying behind a Corvair.
>
> I know Phil. He's not a bad guy. And he'll even pick up a lunch tab
> occasionally. But he IS from New Jersey. So you have to cut him a bit a
> slack. ;-)
>
> You are in the right place to ask questions and get valid responses. But
> lumping all Corvair guys together as to their engine motivations and
> attitudes does tend to chafe a bit, and really doesn't help move the ball
> down the field for anyone.
>
> Well, I'm off to my local biker bar to ask the other fine patrons why
> their Harleys suck so badly when compared to the latest in crotch rockets
> from Japan and the European Union...
>
> Again - ;-)
>
> Rick
>
> Christopher Smith wrote:
>
> "this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about it...Not
> that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as rude...That is what
> is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's post. If I wanted to
> knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But I don't, in fact I have
> a link to the corvair website. If I felt the engine was bad I would not link
> to it. I see now that the corvair folks are not willing to help me
> understand the engine I have an interest in. When that happens, I look
> elsewhere. I will from now on post questions to my website about the corvair
> to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting to help me with corvair can post a
> comment on the site. Sorry for getting this started, I thought that I could
> get help here.
>
> On 7/6/06, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Chris, et al:
> >
> > Sure, the Corvair engine has its share of downsides. So does every
> > other aero engine flying, including certificated ones. And that's the
> > beauty of the experimental category - we get to experiment, just as the name
> > implies, with various airframe and powerplant solutions.
> >
> > So blanket statements like "...this corvair stuff is just dumb",
> > "...most who choose it is for the cost savings", and "Corvair people come
> > off as rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" are sure to raise
> > the ire of those of us who have done the research, looked at the options,
> > heard the word from on high, and made the decision to build up one of these
> > beautiful little powerplants from a formerly automotive Corvair.
> >
> > In my case, I first chose the engine (cost was NOT a factor), and then
> > went out looking for the right airframe to stick on the back of it. I'm
> > more than convinced of its reliability and its suitably to haul my ample
> > butt around, having read the conversion manual, talked to other Corvair
> > flyers about their experiences, and spent considerable time with the man who
> > has invested a considerable amount of his life bringing the engine to the
> > aviation market.
> >
> > In this little corner of aviation, blanket statements get shot down with
> > alarming regularity given the variables inherent in each individual
> > installation. And those statements do little to further the legitimate
> > educational dialogue, but tend to just polarize folks into "pro" and "anti"
> > camps. (Besides, it's just not friendly to imply that someone's an idiot
> > after making an informed choice, when your own research is a bit lacking.)
> >
> > And, I've had a forced landing due to an exhaust valve breaking up in a
> > Lycoming O-360A4K. I do know of a couple of Corvair engines that failed in
> > flight, but I also know that putting excessive loads on any certified or
> > non-certified crankshaft will eventually cause a failure. Look at the rash
> > of recent ADs concerning crankshaft retirement from Lycoming!
> >
> > So, forgive us if we defend our engine choice with passion. To do
> > otherwise would indicate that we're really not capable of independent
> > thought, and are content to only fly behind brand C or brand L engines for
> > the remainder of our dull, uninspired, sheep-like lives.
> >
> > Rick Lindstrom
> > Corvair / 601XL
> >
> >
> > Christopher Smith wrote:
> >
> > I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It
> > seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of
> > downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose
> > it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's
> > reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the
> > engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often.
> > One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the
> > choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.
> >
> > On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com
> > >
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the
> > Corvair
> > conversion. I'm flying one.
> >
> > If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input
> > of
> > experts and those who have been flying for years?
> >
> > On second thought, don't answer that. Some people like one engine
> > better
> > than another. In the future, could you please leave the Corvair
> > discussion
> > to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?
> >
> > Phil Maxson
> > 601XL/Corvair
> > Northwest New Jersey
> > 75 hours
> >
> > >From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> >
> > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
> > >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700
> > >
> > >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 63
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Chris,
The duplicate systems on the WW ignition system are the points, coils,
capacitors and resistors. According to WW these are the systems that
are affected by heat, "the primary killer of ignition systems." The
non-redundant systems are the plugs, wires, and cap. Another difference
between the WW system and mag systems is that you only run one at a
time. If one system malfunctions you simply flip a switch to engage the
second system. This was a big topic of discussion at Corvair day at the
Mexico factory. Since the conversion manual is WW's lively hood, I
probably should copy the entire details of the ignition system onto a
web forum. I really encourage you to get the conversion manual. I was
surprised that the first chapter is mainly his philosophy on risk
management. It is a great read whether you build a Corvair or not.
Contact me off the list if you would like to continue this discussion.
Thanks,
John
www.johnsplane.com
________________________________
Smith
Sent: Thu 7/6/2006 6:13 PM
Thank you. I have read alot on the corvair website by WW. I will have to
check out CorvAircraft's website for it is new to me. I was just asking
about info I could not find on the corvair site. But trust me, I have
learned my lesson, & will save Corvair questions for my own site. Thank
you again for your help.
On 7/6/06, Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote:
If you don't find enough information at FlyCorvair.Com, check out the
CorvairCraft list:
search the CorvAircraft archives at
http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp
<https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/inde
x.jsp>
Other CorvAircraft list info is at
http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html
<https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.ht
ml>
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Smith <mailto:ch601xl@gmail.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
"this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about
it...Not that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as
rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's
post. If I wanted to knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But
I don't, in fact I have a link to the corvair website. If I felt the
engine was bad I would not link to it. I see now that the corvair folks
are not willing to help me understand the engine I have an interest in.
When that happens, I look elsewhere. I will from now on post questions
to my website about the corvair to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting
to help me with corvair can post a comment on the site. Sorry for
getting this started, I thought that I could get help here.
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com <https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/ch-601xl.com>
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Oops. I meant to say "should not".
John R. Hines
IT Manager
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
Rogers, AR 72756
Office: 479-878-2449
Mobile: 479-366-4783
Fax: 479-631-6224
John.Hines@craftontull.com
www.craftontull.com
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the
needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu Jul 06 18:53:21 2006
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
Chris,
The duplicate systems on the WW ignition system are the points, coils,
capacitors and resistors. According to WW these are the systems that
are affected by heat, "the primary killer of ignition systems." The
non-redundant systems are the plugs, wires, and cap. Another difference
between the WW system and mag systems is that you only run one at a
time. If one system malfunctions you simply flip a switch to engage the
second system. This was a big topic of discussion at Corvair day at the
Mexico factory. Since the conversion manual is WW's lively hood, I
probably should copy the entire details of the ignition system onto a
web forum. I really encourage you to get the conversion manual. I was
surprised that the first chapter is mainly his philosophy on risk
management. It is a great read whether you build a Corvair or not.
Contact me off the list if you would like to continue this discussion.
Thanks,
John
www.johnsplane.com
________________________________
Smith
Sent: Thu 7/6/2006 6:13 PM
Thank you. I have read alot on the corvair website by WW. I will have to
check out CorvAircraft's website for it is new to me. I was just asking
about info I could not find on the corvair site. But trust me, I have
learned my lesson, & will save Corvair questions for my own site. Thank
you again for your help.
On 7/6/06, Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote:
If you don't find enough information at FlyCorvair.Com, check out the
CorvairCraft list:
search the CorvAircraft archives at
http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp
<https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/inde
x.jsp>
Other CorvAircraft list info is at
http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html
<https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.ht
ml>
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Smith <mailto:ch601xl@gmail.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
"this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about
it...Not that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as
rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's
post. If I wanted to knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But
I don't, in fact I have a link to the corvair website. If I felt the
engine was bad I would not link to it. I see now that the corvair folks
are not willing to help me understand the engine I have an interest in.
When that happens, I look elsewhere. I will from now on post questions
to my website about the corvair to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting
to help me with corvair can post a comment on the site. Sorry for
getting this started, I thought that I could get help here.
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com <https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/ch-601xl.com>
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the
system manager. This message contains confidential information and is
intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named
addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this
e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are
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distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this
information is strictly prohibited.
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Oops. I meant to say "should not".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BR><DIV align=left><TABLE height 0 cellSpacing=0
cellPadding=0 width=400 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD
style="BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat" align=left
width="100%"><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%"
border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14pt;
COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Verdana"
align=left>John R. Hines</TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=left>IT Manager</TD></TR><TR><TD
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #767374;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=left>John.Hines@craftontull.com</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle
height=10></TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE:
8pt; COLOR: #767374; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=left><br/>
Office: 479-878-2449 <br/>
Mobile: 479-366-4783 <br/>
Fax: 479-631-6224 </TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle
height=10></TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE:
7pt; COLOR: #767374; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=right><A
href="http://www.craftontull.com/">www.craftontull.com</A></TD></TR><TR
><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; COLOR: #767374;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=right>901 N. 47th
Street, Suite 200 ·Rogers, AR 72756</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right
height=40><A title="Visit our website for more information."
style="TEXT-DECORATION: none" href="http://www.craftontull.com/"
target=_blank><IMG
src="http://www.craftontull.com/images/emailsignature_block1.gif"
border=0></A></TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;
FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #767374; MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
align=justify>Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to
anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with
successful
solutions.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>-----
Original Message-----<BR>
HREF="mailto:John.Hines@craftontull.com">mailto:John.Hines@craftontull.
com</A>]<BR>
Sent: Thu Jul 06 18:53:21 2006<BR>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re:
Dynon on Corvair engine<BR>
<BR>
Chris,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The duplicate systems on the WW ignition system are the points, coils,
capacitors and resistors. According to WW these are the systems
that are affected by heat, "the primary killer of ignition
systems." The non-redundant systems are the plugs, wires, and
cap. Another difference between the WW system and mag systems is
that you only run one at a time. If one system malfunctions you
simply flip a switch to engage the second system. This was a big
topic of discussion at Corvair day at the Mexico factory. Since
the conversion manual is WW's lively hood, I probably should copy the
entire details of the ignition system onto a web forum. I really
encourage you to get the conversion manual. I was surprised that
the first chapter is mainly his philosophy on risk management. It
is a great read whether you build a Corvair or not.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Contact me off the list if you would like to continue this
discussion.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
www.johnsplane.com <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Smith<BR>
Sent: Thu 7/6/2006 6:13 PM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. I have read alot on the corvair website by WW. I will have to
check out CorvAircraft's website for it is new to me. I was just asking
about info I could not find on the corvair site. But trust me, I have
learned my lesson, & will save Corvair questions for my own site.
Thank you again for your help.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 7/6/06, Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
If you don't find enough
information at FlyCorvair.Com, check out the CorvairCraft list:<BR>
search the CorvAircraft
archives at <A
HREF="http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp">http://www.maddyh
ome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp</A> <<A
HREF="https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.maddyhome.com/corvairsr
ch/index.jsp">https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.maddyhome.com/cor
vairsrch/index.jsp</A>><BR>
Other CorvAircraft list info
is at <A
HREF="http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html">http://www.krnet.org
/corvaircraft_inst.html</A> <<A
HREF="https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_
inst.html">https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.krnet.org/corvaircra
ft_inst.html</A>><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message
-----<BR>
From: Christopher Smith
<<A
HREF="mailto:ch601xl@gmail.com">mailto:ch601xl@gmail.com</A>> <
BR>
<BR>
To:
zenith-list@matronics.com<BR>
<BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006
5:14 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:
Dynon on Corvair engine<BR>
<BR>
"this corvair stuff is
just dumb" meant the Back and forth about it...Not that the corvair
in dumb..."Corvair people come off as rude...That is what is
hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's post. If I wanted
to knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But I don't, in fact
I have a link to the corvair website. If I felt the engine was bad I
would not link to it. I see now that the corvair folks are not willing
to help me understand the engine I have an interest in. When that
happens, I look elsewhere. I will from now on post questions to my
website about the corvair to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting to help
me with corvair can post a comment on the site. Sorry for getting this
started, I thought that I could get help here.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Christopher W. E. Smith<BR>
fly1m1<BR>
<A HREF="http://ch-601xl.com">http://ch-601xl.com</A> <<A
HREF="https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/ch-601xl.com">https://webvp
n.craftontull.com/http/0/ch-601xl.com</A>> <BR>
</FONT>
</P>
<BR><BR><FONT style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align="justify">This email and
any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for
the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This
message contains confidential information and is intended only for the
individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender
immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and
delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended
recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or
taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is
strictly prohibited.</FONT></BODY>
</HTML>
Message 65
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Love the pro and con on all these emotionally charged debates, but
remember that you're eating into the technical volumes of our archives
and I'd not like to see them ruined by having to read all this over and
over again. Perhaps you all could be convinced to add
DO NOT ARCHIVE TO THE POSTS THAT ARE NOT SO INFORMATIVE.
Very much appreciated,
thanks guys,
Larry McFarland
do not archive
LHusky@aol.com wrote:
> WOW! I am planning on using a Corvair engine, but at no time have I
> came off rude when talking to anyone in this group about the engine.
> Your statement is what is RUDE! If you don't have anything nice to
> say, go join the LYCOMING PEOPLE group and be rude there. No, I am
> not defending my choice of engine. I could care less what you think
> of my choice. That is why it is my choice. I am defending the fact
> that not ALL Corvair people are RUDE!
Message 66
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|
| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool advice |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> How about putting a slot in a long board the
> thickness of the skin and the depth you want. Then
> put the skin in the slot and bend it down, that
> work. Bob S.
--- Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
> I bought an edge flanging tool from Aircraft
> Spruce... the kind with the two rollers on a
> straight handle. I want to use it to slightly curl
> the edge of some of the skins before rivetting so
> that the edge sits down tight. There are no
> directions with the tool and my experiments with
> pieces of scrap have produced a wavy edge rather
> than the desired effect. Anybody out there know the
> secret to using this tool successfully? I'd
> appreciate the help,
>
> Ed Moody II
> Rayne, LA
> 601XL / wings
__________________________________________________
Message 67
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Will do Larry...Sorry
On 7/6/06, LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Love the pro and con on all these emotionally charged debates, but
> remember that you're eating into the technical volumes of our archives
> and I'd not like to see them ruined by having to read all this over and
> over again. Perhaps you all could be convinced to add
> DO NOT ARCHIVE TO THE POSTS THAT ARE NOT SO INFORMATIVE.
>
> Very much appreciated,
> thanks guys,
> Larry McFarland
> do not archive
>
> LHusky@aol.com wrote:
>
> > WOW! I am planning on using a Corvair engine, but at no time have I
> > came off rude when talking to anyone in this group about the engine.
> > Your statement is what is RUDE! If you don't have anything nice to
> > say, go join the LYCOMING PEOPLE group and be rude there. No, I am
> > not defending my choice of engine. I could care less what you think
> > of my choice. That is why it is my choice. I am defending the fact
> > that not ALL Corvair people are RUDE!
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 68
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Wait wait wait!
do not archive
On 7/6/06, Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Will do Larry...Sorry
>
>
> On 7/6/06, LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote:
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com
> > >
> >
> > Love the pro and con on all these emotionally charged debates, but
> > remember that you're eating into the technical volumes of our archives
> > and I'd not like to see them ruined by having to read all this over and
> > over again. Perhaps you all could be convinced to add
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE TO THE POSTS THAT ARE NOT SO INFORMATIVE.
> >
> > Very much appreciated,
> > thanks guys,
> > Larry McFarland
> > do not archive
> >
> > LHusky@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > WOW! I am planning on using a Corvair engine, but at no time have I
> > > came off rude when talking to anyone in this group about the engine.
> > > Your statement is what is RUDE! If you don't have anything nice to
> > > say, go join the LYCOMING PEOPLE group and be rude there. No, I am
> > > not defending my choice of engine. I could care less what you think
> > > of my choice. That is why it is my choice. I am defending the fact
> > > that not ALL Corvair people are RUDE!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 69
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Oops! Seems like I always get on and off list posts screwed up.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 7:13 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
> Larry-
> I'm glad it's over with. I have enough work to do on the garanger
> before I run out of vacation as it is!
> Electric and gas completed, 2-1/2 of 4 walls covered. No doubt going
> into hock big time rounding up the siding tomorrow.
> 2 of the 3 workbenches upstairs, along with the table saw. Have to have
> the interior pretty much complete and the rest of the benches/tools moved
> before my son goes back to work Monday,
> This is vacation??
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:35 PM
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>>
>> Excellent read for perspective Bill
>> Especially for the newbies.
>>
>> Larry McFarland
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> Bill Naumuk wrote:
>>
>>> All-
>>> Draft article attached.
>>> Bill
>>> do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JULY 5, 2006
>>> EAA-
>>> Please consider the following draft article for publication in an
>>> upcoming SA edition:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are no exception.
>>> Divide the world's
>>> population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find that
>>> there aren't that many "Birds"
>>> available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when the
>>> Wright brothers had to wait
>>> months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet
>>> builder's group, you can correspond
>>> instantaneously with other "Birds" building something similar to your
>>> project.
>>> Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. Things went
>>> acceptably well, so I
>>> maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With all the
>>> confidence of the
>>> hopelessly nave, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build myself
>>> (Or more accurately,
>>> mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and tried
>>> to sell the project.
>>>
>>> Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's site to
>>> builders who were flying
>>> and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral
>>> support, I was able to rebuild
>>> myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project and
>>> eventually recommended
>>> that I join the international builder's list.
>>> After participating on the builder's list for over a year I realized
>>> that I wasn't the only
>>> one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought it was
>>> important that SA readers
>>> be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my belief and
>>> responded to a questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list".
>>> What follows is a compilation of their responses:
>>>
>>> The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading the posts of
>>> others you can get
>>> a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished
>>> product. Forewarned of recurring
>>> problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of
>>> finished product limitations,
>>> you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and
>>> expectations before it's too late.
>>> 75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an
>>> average of 2 months after they
>>> had purchased their kit or plans.
>>> Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major reason given for
>>> joining a list, even
>>> though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is the
>>> fact that the internet is acting
>>> as an alternative to face-to-face interaction.
>>> Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. Some listers are
>>> more comfortable
>>> remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the fray. Yes,
>>> fray. Don't forget, you're
>>> dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and sisters,
>>> and I guarantee you at
>>> times you'll fight like siblings!
>>> When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for technical or
>>> social reasons"
>>> the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted macho
>>> response, because
>>> when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted that
>>> once friendships had been
>>> established, social communication was an added bonus.
>>> Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of technical advice.
>>> The common
>>> response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely slow
>>> in coming. As an
>>> alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list
>>> recommendations with EAA
>>> Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the first to
>>> respond, with a factory
>>> blessing weeks or even months later.
>>> Just about every respondent encountered a major problem while building.
>>> There
>>> were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans, instructions,
>>> interpretation of the instructions,
>>> or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been avoided
>>> by posting a question or
>>> researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet the
>>> manufacturer's projected
>>> build time.
>>> Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a major problem,
>>> with the average
>>> builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more background in
>>> psychology than me will
>>> have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a
>>> builder's mind to be able to come up
>>> with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open for
>>> everyone to offer moral and/or
>>> technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the
>>> ensuing interchange will become
>>> a permanent part of the archives to help builders in the future.
>>> Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list membership
>>> was beneficial,
>>> and recommending membership to new builders.
>>> Good building!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William J. Naumuk EAA# 336752
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Message 70
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| Subject: | Rear Longerons on Bottom Fuselage |
Hello Listers,
I got an answer from Zenith! With reference to the probem I was having
with the rear longerons extending away from the bottom skin resulting in
an edge distance of 6-7mm at the HT Frame, I was sent this email from
Caleb Gebhardt at Zenith Aircraft.
"I've had a look at the pictures you sent and looked over your problem.
You won't have a problem with it having an edge distance of 6mm. The
absolute minimum edge distance is 1.5 x diameter of the hole, which for
those rivets the minimum is 4.75mm."
Thanks to those of you who responded. This was one of those areas that I
just worried about because of the loads. At least now I know the "Real"
rule regarding edge distance. I'll stay with the 3X distance but at
least I won't worry as much if I drop to 2-2.5X.
Now, on to the Bottom Access Panel...
Scott Thatcher
Message 71
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool advice |
Ed-
Jeff Small went the other route with a bender that was only about
1/2" wide, if that. I remember him saying that he made it out of a
really hard wood like walnut or rosewood and had to cut the kerf with a
jeweler's saw.
I was too impatient to use his technique and since I did it the way
you were going to try will have to roll out some high spots. It works,
but I'll wind up with a net loss timewise.
You might check in the archives for Jeff's tool. I used to have a
picture but had a hard drive crash last year that probably wiped
everything out.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging tool advice
Thanks, I was afraid of that. I just hoped there was a trick I had
missed. I'll revert to plan "B" which is to take a 2x4, cut a
length-wise saw kerf along one of the 1.5" sides and use that to put a
gentle bend along the entire edge of the skin at once. Damn! I hate when
there's no GEE WHIZ in the gee whiz tool.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging tool advice
Ed-
I had the same tool and attempted the same trick as you're
trying to perform.
The answer is, you'd better get it right the first time, because
the metal 1. Stretches and 2. Starts curling up, the same way as a piece
of paper will if you run it over the edge of a table. Take one pass with
the tool and quit. I always drew the tool toward me rather than pushed
it away.
The technique works OK on short runs, but I guarantee you'll get
into trouble if you try to do, say, the spanwise edge of a wing skin.
Bill
do not archive?
Message 72
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: mike sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
I was kinda disappointed, wasn't a single mention about the miracle of
Green Scotchbrite!
Do Not Archive
> Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>
> All- Draft article
> attached.
> Bill do not archive
>
JULY 5, 2006
EAA-
Please consider the following draft article for publication
in an upcoming SA edition:
"Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are no
exception. Divide the world's
population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find that
there aren't that many "Birds"
available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when the
Wright brothers had to wait
months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet
builder's group, you can correspond
instantaneously with other "Birds" building something
similar to your project.
Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. Things
went acceptably well, so I
maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With all the
confidence of the
hopelessly nave, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build myself
(Or more accurately,
mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and tried
to sell the project.
Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's
site to builders who were flying
and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral
support, I was able to rebuild
myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project and
eventually recommended
that I join the international
builder's list.
After participating on the builder's list for over a year I
realized that I wasn't the only
one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought it was
important that SA readers
be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my
belief and responded to a
questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What follows is a
compilation of their responses:
The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading the
posts of others you can get
a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished
product. Forewarned of recurring
problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of
finished product limitations,
you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and
expectations before it's too late.
75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an
average of 2 months after they
had purchased their kit or
plans.
Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major reason
given for joining a list, even
though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is the
fact that the internet is acting
as an alternative to face-to-face
interaction.
Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. Some
listers are more comfortable
remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the fray. Yes,
fray. Don't forget, you're
dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and sisters,
and I guarantee you at
times you'll fight like
siblings!
When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for
technical or social reasons"
the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted macho
response, because
when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted that
once friendships had been
established, social communication was an added
bonus.
Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of
technical advice. The common
response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely slow
in coming. As an
alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list
recommendations with EAA
Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the first to
respond, with a factory
blessing weeks or even months later.
Just about every respondent encountered a major problem while
building. There
were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans, instructions,
interpretation of the instructions,
or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been avoided
by posting a question or
researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet the
manufacturer's projected
build time.
Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a major
problem, with the average
builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more background in
psychology than me will
have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a
builder's mind to be able to come up
with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open for
everyone to offer moral and/or
technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the
ensuing interchange will become
a permanent part of the archives to help
builders in the future.
Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list
membership was beneficial,
and recommending membership to new
builders.
Good building!
William J. Naumuk EAA#
336752
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
> rates starting at 1/min.
Message 73
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| Subject: | Corvair Conversions |
Chris, Paul,
I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe - No,
actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and they
have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today!!!
So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of
experimental aviation that truly inspires me!
My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and the
601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought
processes before making any opinion about the Corvair - or don't.
Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your questions
answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net
<http://www.corvaircraft@mylist.net/>
Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and fly
is your own business.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Message 74
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| Subject: | Corvair Conversions |
Chris, Paul,
I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe - No,
actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and they
have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today!!!
So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of
experimental aviation that truly inspires me!
My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and the
601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought
processes before making any opinion about the Corvair - or don't.
Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your Corvair
questions answered at: corvaircraft.com
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Message 75
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question
crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every time
you mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out
you are using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh...
OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic flight
at Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable for
flight? I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in
1903, one of the biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough
power and still light enough for flight... They used what they had,
what they could make and what they could find or invent. At some point
between then and now, someone has taken or was given the authority to
say what's "certified" and what's not... That being said, the word
"certified" is still someone's opinion. They can say one engine is
certified and one is not...
If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying Machine
Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but certified by
whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean that all the
other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone else
builds/copies of my original design, that accomplishes the same work as
mine, at half the cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I could say
that and tell the world that, but would it be correct..? No, just an
opinion...mine.
Along the same thought of:
The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no
rules, no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made
rules, set up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to
govern the activity they introduced to the world and anyone, who from
then till today, that plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew...
Something wrong with that picture... Who gave the "authorities" the
authority???
Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are:
1. I'll be there on Friday.
2. The check is in the mail.
3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you.
Bottom line is:
We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own
efforts. I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because
you choose to do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you
work and efforts are fruitless and void... You have to do it to a
degree that is pleases you. Keep in mind what the role of the part is,
that's in question, and build the part to accomplish its designated
role... Heck, I've seen pictures of parts built for homebuilts, even
Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet on my wheel barrow and trust... but the guy
that built it, built it for himself, to suit himself, to accomplish the
task he planned for it to do...and that's good enough for me.
Randy
XL Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
Chris, Paul,
I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe - No,
actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and
they have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are
today!!!
So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of
experimental aviation that truly inspires me!
My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and
the 601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought
processes before making any opinion about the Corvair - or don't.
Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your
questions answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net
Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and
fly is your own business.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Message 76
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| Subject: | Re: 701 AVWeb POTW? |
Sure looks like one to me!!
In a message dated 7/6/2006 11:20:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mgvalentine@gmail.com writes:
Is the second picture here a 701?
<_http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_27b/potw/192653-1.html_
(http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_27b/potw/192653-1.html) >
Michael
do not archive
Message 77
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>Well, I'm off to my local biker bar to ask the other fine patrons
>why their Harleys suck so badly when compared to the latest in
>crotch rockets from Japan and the European Union...
Well done, Rick. That one got even me into a deep belly laugh.
For anyone who is interested, let me actually make a clear statement
of where I stand on the engine questions:
1. I am building a 601XL and have not yet made a final decision on
which engine to install. I am leaning heavily toward the Jabiru
3300, but until I have it in hand that decision could change. My
goal is to get the best possible performance from my plane and engine
without much concern for reliability or cost.
2. I don't have anything against William Wynne or Corvair
engines. I am personally concerned about the discussions that have
taken place over this engine choice. The reason I am concerned is I
get the impression that the most vocal Corvair advocates do so
without any support of a technical nature for their positions. They
seem to make it a completely personal issue and not a technical
one. This makes me wonder if the picture they have of the Corvair
engine is accurate. Since I have yet to have a single technical
response to my comments (except for the citing of a "Dual points and
coil" system) and have received perhaps two dozen personal attacks
without any technical backup, I remain worried that fellow builders
are going down the garden path with their eyes firmly shut. For any
builder who chooses a Corvair or other auto conversion engine knowing
they are trading apparent cost for reliability and performance losses
I am very happy. For those who think they are getting improved
reliability or performance by using an auto engine in an airplane I
am concerned.
3. While I am not an expert in auto ignition systems, I am somewhat
expert in design of fault tolerant systems. I did that for a living
for a number of years when I was designing computers that run
communications systems. I believe my discussion of the possible
reduction in reliability in the non-isolated ignition system
additions was reasonably competent. While I would like to thank
Frank for his comments regarding addition of diodes with the hope of
causing isolation I remain unconvinced that these low volume custom
systems are really fault tolerant. If it is just me, that is
fine. I agree completely with the listers who pointed out that
engine failures occur with all engine choices and the really
important issue is for the pilots to keep their skills at landing
newly minted gliders up to the requirements.
4. As to the question about why the Corvair gets so much attention
on this list while the other auto conversions get nary a peep, I
think it is the way the Corvair advocates make every comment a
personal insult that leads to so much hot air. If only the technical
issues were discussed as such I think we would all be happier.
Best regards to all,
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
--
Message 78
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Dude Rick! That one got me. I'm still stryin' to stop laughing. I love how
that just came out of left field.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
Well, I'm off to my local biker bar to ask the other fine patrons why their
Harleys suck so badly when compared to the latest in crotch rockets from
Japan and the European Union...
Again - ;-)
Rick
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