Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:12 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (kevinbonds)
2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Frank Roskind)
3. 05:29 AM - Engine Failures. (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 05:32 AM - Re: Here it is (Bill Naumuk)
5. 05:32 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Frank Roskind)
6. 06:08 AM - Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (2thesky)
7. 06:19 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06 (Tom Farin)
8. 07:49 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Christopher Smith)
9. 07:49 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Christopher Smith)
10. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 08:50 AM - Re: Flanging tool advice (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
12. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Craig Payne)
13. 09:01 AM - Foxcon - Subaru 4 coil ignition (John Hines)
14. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
15. 09:25 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Robin Bellach)
16. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
17. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
18. 09:42 AM - Re: Foxcon - Subaru 4 coil ignition (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
19. 10:15 AM - Re: Here it is (Roger Venables)
20. 11:16 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (James Ferris)
21. 11:16 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (James Ferris)
22. 11:18 AM - Re: Flanging tool advice ()
23. 12:03 PM - Re: Flanging tool advice ()
24. 12:06 PM - don't archive!!! (Zed Smith)
25. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine ()
26. 12:15 PM - Re: don't archive!!! ()
27. 12:20 PM - Re: don't archive!!! (John Hines)
28. 12:25 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (John Hines)
29. 12:41 PM - Green pads.... (Zed Smith)
30. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Edward Moody II)
31. 12:51 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
32. 01:18 PM - Slow day (Zed Smith)
33. 01:19 PM - Corvair cranks (Randy Stout)
34. 01:27 PM - Corvair Forums and Info (Phil Maxson)
35. 01:29 PM - Re: Corvair cranks (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
36. 01:50 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Phil Maxson)
37. 01:56 PM - Wing Building (AZFlyer)
38. 02:16 PM - Oh my gawd, we're all goin' die! (Jeff Small)
39. 02:20 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Gary Boothe)
40. 02:27 PM - Re: Wing Building (Paul Mulwitz)
41. 02:28 PM - Re: Wing Building (Jaybannist@cs.com)
42. 02:39 PM - Re: Wing Building (Robin Bellach)
43. 02:42 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Robin Bellach)
44. 05:17 PM - weight of engines? (Hudsonmusic1@aol.com)
45. 06:16 PM - Re: Corvair cranks (Randy Bryant)
46. 06:23 PM - Re: Slow day (Edward Moody II)
47. 06:28 PM - Re: don't archive!!! (Tommy Walker)
48. 06:34 PM - Re: Wing Building (Edward Moody II)
49. 07:06 PM - Re: Corvair cranks (Phil Maxson)
50. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Jean-Paul Roy)
51. 07:23 PM - Re: Wing Building (Jaybannist@cs.com)
52. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Jean-Paul Roy)
53. 07:41 PM - Getting started on CH601XL (Wade Jones)
54. 08:00 PM - Re: weight of engines? (Paul Mulwitz)
55. 08:04 PM - Re: Wing Building (Paul Mulwitz)
56. 08:34 PM - Seeking O-200 oil tank (Randy L. Thwing)
57. 09:07 PM - Re: Corvair cranks (kevinbonds)
58. 09:44 PM - Re: Seeking O-200 oil tank (Thesumak@aol.com)
59. 10:02 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Afterfxllc@AOL.COM)
60. 10:06 PM - Can we just lighten up? (Richard Vetterli)
61. 10:29 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Randy Bryant)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Paul
I suspect that some are like me. We are in the middle of building some other
part of our plane--and our mental efforts are taken up by it. Not that we
are necessarily unable to discuss technically, but that we would need to go
back and reference various materials, and such, to give qualified
information that is not based on spotty memory. I have read and re-read my
plans and manuals so many times but still wouldn't think of trying to do
anything strictly from memory. I haven't even looked at my engine this year.
I have rebuilt a Lyc 0-320 in class; taken, Applied Calculus, Philosophy,
Sociology, and Plane Trigonometry, and built half my fuse since the last
time I even opened WW's manual. Heck After reading about a million posts I'm
not even sure what your original post was. Maybe it has something to do with
the fact that it is 2:00am as well. I probably should make a rule to not
type after 1:00 for fear that it is all gobbledigoop.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
<html><image
src="http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds/images/Empennage/Elevator.jpg
width="120"></html>
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" <frankroskind@hotmail.com>
I thnk the reason that the Corvair engine gets so much attention is that it
is a unique conversion. The VW is similar but has much less power, and from
what I understand about most VW conversions, the typical aircraft conversion
gets its power off the end opposite that used to get power in a car. The
Corvair engine is air-cooled, and direct drive, both of which bring welcome
simplicity to a project. I have nothing against any gizmo, but if it isn't
on the plane it can't break. The competing engines to a Corvair are the
Rotax, Jabiru, and some older Lycomings or Continentals which are hard to
find. In general they cost more.
I know there are other conversions out there, including Subaru and Geo, but
the bottom line is that those conversions are extremely complex processes,
and require at a minimum gear boxes and liquid cooling systems. It is no
surprise then that the Corvair conversion gets a lot of attention. Further,
the conversion that gets so much attention is the William Wynne conversion.
His discussions make a fair amount of sense. He posts what I think are
open, relatively unbiased discussions on his website. Certainly Zenith is
interested in his work, and posts a link from their website.
OTOH, there are drawbacks to the Corvair conversion, some of which you have
highlighted.
If there were no drawbacks there would be no reason to discuss the engine.
If there were no advantages there would be no reason to discuss the engine.
We have a lot of discussion, and I think the implication is very clear.
Corvair engines have a lot of advantages and drawbacks.
As to single point failures, there are two issues- first can a single point
failure turn your airplane into a glider, and second, is the failure
graceful, or sudden. All piston engines can fail due to a crankshaft
failure or a fuel line failure, both of which are single point, and which
are common modes to all of the engines suggested for Zeniths. Ignition
system failures with conventional point ignition as suggested by Mr. Wynne
are comparitively rare, and failures without warning are extremely rare.
Dual ignition systems are also subject to extremely rare event single point
failures as well. I don't think these failures are as likely to occur ass
some of the other failures, such as fuel system or crankshaft. It is easier
to reduce the risk of an engine failure by addressing the fuel system and
crank than it is to reduce the risk by focuing on the ignition system. I
would suggest that the bigger issue is crankshaft failure, and the relalted
issue of correctly matching the propellor to the engine.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
4. As to the question about why the Corvair gets so much attention on this
list while the other auto conversions get nary a peep, I think it is the way
the Corvair advocates make every comment a personal insult that leads to so
much hot air. If only the technical issues were discussed as such I think
we would all be happier.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Engine Failures. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Frank,
I agree with you.
Sometimes when I get bored I read accident reports on the NTSB web
site. I usually limit my choice of accidents to home built aircraft,
but in discussions with experienced pilots I have been led to believe
that the phenomenon of engine failure is certainly not limited to
home built planes.
My informal conclusions agree completely with your comments about
fuel systems and crank shaft failures - particularly the fuel
systems. I don't think crank failures are as frequent as fuel system
failures, but they get lots of press because of ADs and other
publicity. There are endless examples of fuel system failures which
seem to include clogged filters and fuel starvation from other
causes. I suppose the most popular reason for fuel starvation is the
pilot flew farther than the fuel allowed, but that is probably the
most prevalent form of engine failure.
On the crank failure issue, I am reminded of a lesson from my
favorite flight instructor. He taught me that nearly all mechanical
failures in engines occur when the pilot makes changes to the engine
controls. I believe it is good practice to leave the engine controls
alone while close to the ground, and to make gentle smooth movements
on the controls. This may or may not save me from unpleasant forced
landings, but I have been lucky so far. Another surprise for me was
the fact that new engines are more likely to experience catastrophic
failures than older engines. Older engines may burn a lot of oil but
they are generally smooth in operation.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
>It is easier to reduce the risk of an engine failure by addressing
>the fuel system and crank than it is to reduce the risk by focuing
>on the ignition system. I would suggest that the bigger issue is
>crankshaft failure, and the relalted issue of correctly matching the
>propellor to the engine.
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Mike-
I said up front that the article would be as anonymous as possible. The
whole world would know exactly what list I belonged to if I mentioned green
Scotchbrite!!
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:16 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: mike sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
> I was kinda disappointed, wasn't a single mention about the miracle of
> Green Scotchbrite!
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>> Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>>
>> All- Draft article
>> attached.
>> Bill do not archive
>>
> JULY 5, 2006
> EAA-
> Please consider the following draft article for
> publication
> in an upcoming SA edition:
>
> "Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are
> no
> exception. Divide the world's
> population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find that
> there aren't that many "Birds"
> available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when
> the
> Wright brothers had to wait
> months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet
> builder's group, you can correspond
> instantaneously with other "Birds" building something
> similar to your project.
> Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit.
> Things
> went acceptably well, so I
> maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With all
> the
> confidence of the
> hopelessly nave, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build
> myself
> (Or more accurately,
> mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and
> tried
> to sell the project.
> Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's
> site to builders who were flying
> and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral
> support, I was able to rebuild
> myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project
> and
> eventually recommended
> that I join the international
> builder's list.
> After participating on the builder's list for over a year
> I
> realized that I wasn't the only
> one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought it
> was
> important that SA readers
> be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my
> belief and responded to a
> questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What follows
> is a
> compilation of their responses:
> The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading
> the
> posts of others you can get
> a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished
> product. Forewarned of recurring
> problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of
> finished product limitations,
> you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and
> expectations before it's too late.
> 75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an
> average of 2 months after they
> had purchased their kit or
> plans.
> Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major
> reason
> given for joining a list, even
> though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is
> the
> fact that the internet is acting
> as an alternative to face-to-face
> interaction.
> Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition.
> Some
> listers are more comfortable
> remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the fray.
> Yes,
> fray. Don't forget, you're
> dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and
> sisters,
> and I guarantee you at
> times you'll fight like
> siblings!
> When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for
> technical or social reasons"
> the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted
> macho
> response, because
> when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted
> that
> once friendships had been
> established, social communication was an added
> bonus.
> Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of
> technical advice. The common
> response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely
> slow
> in coming. As an
> alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list
> recommendations with EAA
> Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the
> first to
> respond, with a factory
> blessing weeks or even months later.
> Just about every respondent encountered a major problem
> while
> building. There
> were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans, instructions,
> interpretation of the instructions,
> or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been
> avoided
> by posting a question or
> researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet
> the
> manufacturer's projected
> build time.
> Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a
> major
> problem, with the average
> builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more background
> in
> psychology than me will
> have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a
> builder's mind to be able to come up
> with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open
> for
> everyone to offer moral and/or
> technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the
> ensuing interchange will become
> a permanent part of the archives to help
> builders in the future.
> Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list
> membership was beneficial,
> and recommending membership to new
> builders.
> Good building!
> William J. Naumuk EAA#
> 336752
>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
>> rates starting at 1/min.
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" <frankroskind@hotmail.com>
I read a lot of accident reports. I have not done any stats, but it seems
to me that the first major cause of experimental aircraft power failures is
failure of the fuel delivery system (tanks, no fuel, contamination, lines,
pumps etc.), which does not appear to be affected by choice of engine.
Other prominent causes are lubrication failures, misassembly, overheating,
and crankshaft failures related to poor coordination of propeller and
engine. Th last seems to be a big deal for Corvair engines, but that may be
because someone has focused attention on the issue. On the flycorvair
website there is an extensive discussion of the crankshaft issue. OTOH, I
went to a session last year at Oshkosh where the subject was matching prop
to engine, and the focus was on certified engines on experimental aircraft.
On certified engines the failure mode was often a broken propellor caused by
harmonics, which is much more serious than a crankshaft failure because the
engine often departs the airframe. The simple answer was to select a
propeller engine combination that was working on a certified airplane and
adhere to any rpm restrictions, with the alternative answer to use a wooden
prop, because harmonics are not as big an issue with wood, which damps
vibrations. At the Corvair sessions at Oshkosh, William Wynne was careful
to urge weight and extension limitations for props. That seemed like sound
advice. I haven't read many reports of in-flight ignition system failures.
I would focus on geting the fuel system right , building the engine right,
and getting the right prop. It wouldn't hurt to check the fuel on preflight
either.
I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no
one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides, that's
because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for the cost
savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too
few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures per
capita against a certified engines, it fails more often. One thing is
clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the choice. That is
what is hurting the engine the most.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "2thesky" <biggerspurs@hotmail.com>
Well, since I haven't even decided on how I want to build my shop, much less which
of the few "finalists" I intend to build, an engine choice seems way down
the road for me. One thing that I can say about the Zodie XL Corvair is that
I LOVE the cowling on the engine. It is, in my opinion, one of, if not, the
best looking nose on a plane that I have seen in a long time! I wonder if that
engine cowl could be used with some of the other engines?
Do not archive
--------
Every takeoff is optional, but every landing is mandatory!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45446#45446
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06 |
Let me respond to the Corvair discussion.
First, the passionate and dogmatic response. There was a similar
discussion that occurred yesterday on the C601XL list on Yahoo
yesterday. The subject was engine choices. One member suggested the
Corvair. He was immediately attacked by another on the list for his
choice. So it works both ways.
The best place to post questions relating to Corvair engine conversions
is the Corvaircraft site. As pointed out earlier, it is a very active
group of folks working on Corvair conversions.
http://www.corvaircraft.com/ I find the discussions to be open and
occasionally a bit heated.
The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the
last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the
Corvair engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was
introduced in 1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at
Corvaircraft, on William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site.
Mark had one of the four failures. The consensus seems to be that in
all four cases the installation deviated from the instructions in
Wynne's manual - prop extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way
that placed additional stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark
and William put substantial time into examining the causes of the
failures. In spite of the fact there are no known crank failures on
installations per the WW manual, WW is now recommending the crank be
Nitrided to give it additional strength. In spite of a harrowing
experience, Mark is again flying with a stock WW conversion.
The reason I wrote the last paragraph, is I wanted to respond to the
comment that Corvair builders may not be properly doing the due
dilligance before making the choice. I'd respond by saying the average
Corvair builder puts a lot more time into due dilligance than those
choosing Jabiru, O-200, or Rotax installs. And they should. After all,
the Corvair engine wasn't designed originally as an aviation engine.
I certainly have. I've read virtually every post on the CorvairCraft
site in the last two years, read all the information on the WW site, own
and have read the WW manual, own and have browsed the GM Corvair shop
manual and have read most of the engine parts of the Finch book, "How to
Keep Your Corvair Alive".
As for the ignition system, I have yet to see a post relating to a
Corvair ignition system failure. Yes, a full dual system would be nice,
but that's far from my biggest concern about a Corvair engine install.
In my own case, I went up in a Zodiac XL at the EAA SP tour in
Romeoville a few weeks ago and will be building an XL. I'm still
keeping my options open on the engine. But this weekend, I'm going to
drop $250 to pick up a Corvair engine along with some rebuilder parts.
It's a cheap decision. But when I'm in Oshkosh the end of the month
I'll be asking lots of questions. I always have the option to change my
mind later.
Keep in mind one other thing. The majority of Corvair engine owners
rebuild their own engines. That cuts them from a somewhat different
cloth than the majority of Zodiac builders. I'm not saying they are
better, smarter, or more stupid - just different. When the project is
complete, most know a lot more about the engine they are flying than the
majority of Rotax, Continental, or Jabiru owners. Frankly, the thought
of building my own engine appeals to me.
I was one of the combatants in the discussion on the other list
yesterday. When you put as much time into research as I have and
someone who clearly hasn't done his attacks your choice, you do tend to
respond emotionally.
Tom
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
Gary & Randy,
I would like to point out that I just wanted info on the corvair. Please
read the posts & you will see that. I said some things wrong that made it
sound as if I was lumping all corvair builders into the same group. For tha
t
I am sorry (Think I have said I'm Sorry more in the last day than the last
10 years). But please take time to understand that some of you take
criticism to questions of reliability. I will say this only once......To
walk info anything in aviation blind could cost you your life. That does no
t
mean that just because the batt might quit and take the engine with it is
better or worse than engine x y or z. But if I choose the corvair not carin
g
what makes it differ from any other engine, Then I am a bad builder, a bad
pilot. Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics o
f
engine? I think not. Someone took the time to answer your questions. Now is
the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair does
not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choice.
Thank you.
On 7/6/06, Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
>
> I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question
> crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every time
you
> mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out you a
re
> using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh...
>
> OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic flight a
t
> Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable for flight?
> I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in 1903, one of
the
> biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough power and still light
> enough for flight... They used what they had, what they could make and w
hat
> they could find or invent. At some point between then and now, someone h
as
> taken or was given the authority to say what's "certified" and what's
> not... That being said, the word "certified" is still someone's opinion.
> They can say one engine is certified and one is not...
>
> If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying Machine
> Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but certified by
> whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean that all the
> other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone else builds/copie
s
> of my original design, that accomplishes the same work as mine, at half
> the cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I could say that and tell
the
> world that, but would it be correct..? No, just an opinion...mine.
>
> Along the same thought of:
> The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no
> rules, no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made
> rules, set up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to gover
n
> the activity they introduced to the world and anyone, who from then till
> today, that plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew... Something
> wrong with that picture... Who gave the "authorities" the authority???
>
> Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are:
> 1. I'll be there on Friday.
> 2. The check is in the mail.
> 3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you.
>
> Bottom line is:
> We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own efforts.
> I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because you choose
to
> do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you work and efforts
are
> fruitless and void... You have to do it to a degree that is pleases you.
> Keep in mind what the role of the part is, that's in question, and build
the
> part to accomplish its designated role... Heck, I've seen pictures of pa
rts
> built for homebuilts, even Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet on my wheel barrow a
nd
> trust... but the guy that built it, built it for himself, to suit himsel
f,
> to accomplish the task he planned for it to do...and that's good enough f
or
> me.
>
>
> Randy
> XL Wings - Plans Only
> http://www.n344rb.com
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM
> *Subject:* Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
>
> Chris, Paul,
>
>
> I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe ' No,
> actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and t
hey
> have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today!!!
>
>
> So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of
> experimental aviation that truly inspires me!
>
>
> My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and the
> 601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought
> processes before making any opinion about the Corvair ' or don't.
>
>
> Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your questions
> answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net
>
>
> Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and fl
y
> is your own business.
>
>
> Gary Boothe
>
> Cool, CA
>
> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
>
> Tail done, working on wings....
>
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
"Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics of
engine? I think not." should be "Did anyone on this list choose the corvair
without knowing the basics of engine?
On 7/7/06, Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Gary & Randy,
> I would like to point out that I just wanted info on the corvair. Please
> read the posts & you will see that. I said some things wrong that made
it
> sound as if I was lumping all corvair builders into the same group. For t
hat
> I am sorry (Think I have said I'm Sorry more in the last day than the las
t
> 10 years). But please take time to understand that some of you take
> criticism to questions of reliability. I will say this only once......To
> walk info anything in aviation blind could cost you your life. That does
not
> mean that just because the batt might quit and take the engine with it is
> better or worse than engine x y or z. But if I choose the corvair not car
ing
> what makes it differ from any other engine, Then I am a bad builder, a ba
d
> pilot. Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics
of
> engine? I think not. Someone took the time to answer your questions. Now
is
> the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair doe
s
> not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choic
e.
> Thank you.
>
>
> On 7/6/06, Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
> >
> > I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question
> > crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every tim
e you
> > mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out you
are
> > using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh...
> >
> > OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic flight
> > at Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable for fli
ght?
> > I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in 1903, one o
f the
> > biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough power and still lig
ht
> > enough for flight... They used what they had, what they could make and
what
> > they could find or invent. At some point between then and now, someone
has
> > taken or was given the authority to say what's "certified" and what's
> > not... That being said, the word "certified" is still someone's opinio
n.
> > They can say one engine is certified and one is not...
> >
> > If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying Machine
> > Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but certified by
> > whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean that all th
e
> > other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone else builds/cop
ies
> > of my original design, that accomplishes the same work as mine, at half
> > the cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I could say that and tel
l the
> > world that, but would it be correct..? No, just an opinion...mine.
> >
> > Along the same thought of:
> > The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no
> > rules, no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made
> > rules, set up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to gov
ern
> > the activity they introduced to the world and anyone, who from then til
l
> > today, that plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew... Something
> > wrong with that picture... Who gave the "authorities" the authority???
> >
> > Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are:
> > 1. I'll be there on Friday.
> > 2. The check is in the mail.
> > 3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you.
> >
> > Bottom line is:
> > We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own
> > efforts. I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because
you
> > choose to do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you work
and
> > efforts are fruitless and void... You have to do it to a degree that i
s
> > pleases you. Keep in mind what the role of the part is, that's in ques
tion,
> > and build the part to accomplish its designated role... Heck, I've see
n
> > pictures of parts built for homebuilts, even Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet
on my
> > wheel barrow and trust... but the guy that built it, built it for hims
elf,
> > to suit himself, to accomplish the task he planned for it to do...and t
hat's
> > good enough for me.
> >
> >
> > Randy
> > XL Wings - Plans Only
> > http://www.n344rb.com
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com>
> > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM
> > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
> >
> > Chris, Paul,
> >
> >
> >
> > I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe ' No,
> > actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and
they
> > have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today!
!!
> >
> >
> >
> > So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of
> > experimental aviation that truly inspires me!
> >
> >
> >
> > My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and th
e
> > 601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought
> > processes before making any opinion about the Corvair ' or don't.
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your
> > questions answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net
> >
> >
> >
> > Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and
> > fly is your own business.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary Boothe
> >
> > Cool, CA
> >
> > 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
> >
> > Tail done, working on wings....
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Christopher W. E. Smith
> fly1m1
> http://ch-601xl.com
>
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
And what happens if that changeover switch fails?
Frank
HDS soob 400 hours with individual on-off switches for each critical
system
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hines
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 4:47 PM
Chris,
The duplicate systems on the WW ignition system are the points, coils,
capacitors and resistors. According to WW these are the systems that
are affected by heat, "the primary killer of ignition systems." The
non-redundant systems are the plugs, wires, and cap. Another difference
between the WW system and mag systems is that you only run one at a
time. If one system malfunctions you simply flip a switch to engage the
second system. This was a big topic of discussion at Corvair day at the
Mexico factory. Since the conversion manual is WW's lively hood, I
probably should copy the entire details of the ignition system onto a
web forum. I really encourage you to get the conversion manual. I was
surprised that the first chapter is mainly his philosophy on risk
management. It is a great read whether you build a Corvair or not.
Contact me off the list if you would like to continue this discussion.
Thanks,
John
www.johnsplane.com
________________________________
Smith
Sent: Thu 7/6/2006 6:13 PM
Thank you. I have read alot on the corvair website by WW. I will have to
check out CorvAircraft's website for it is new to me. I was just asking
about info I could not find on the corvair site. But trust me, I have
learned my lesson, & will save Corvair questions for my own site. Thank
you again for your help.
On 7/6/06, Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote:
If you don't find enough information at FlyCorvair.Com, check
out the CorvairCraft list:
search the CorvAircraft archives at
http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp
<https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/ind
ex.jsp>
Other CorvAircraft list info is at
http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html
<https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.h
tml>
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Smith <mailto:ch601xl@gmail.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
"this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about
it...Not that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as
rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's
post. If I wanted to knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But
I don't, in fact I have a link to the corvair website. If I felt the
engine was bad I would not link to it. I see now that the corvair folks
are not willing to help me understand the engine I have an interest in.
When that happens, I look elsewhere. I will from now on post questions
to my website about the corvair to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting
to help me with corvair can post a comment on the site. Sorry for
getting this started, I thought that I could get help here.
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com <https://webvpn.craftontull.com/http/0/ch-601xl.com>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool advice |
Ed, great to hear from you. On the edging tool. Is your purpose to put a lip
around the skin edge to help make a tighter seal when riveting overlapping
skins ? If so, it may be a reasonable idea with some merit. On the other hand,
I
saw a XL a couple months ago, beautiful plane with excellent workmanship (
better than mine) with these bent edges. Frankly, they detracted from the overall
appearance and finish. Maybe more of a taste thing ?? The other point you
might consider is if your metal is right and the rivet lines are straight and
properly spaced from the edge you should achieve a flat tight lap joint. Just my
two cents worth. Have you had a chance to see a XL with these surfaces so bent
? You might agree. Best to you. I hope to fly somewhere this weekend, Bill of
Georgia
do not archive
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>> And what happens if that changeover switch fails?
Roughly the same thing that happens if your mag switch fails. But not
exactly - as I understand it a mag switch grounds a lead to turn off a mag.
IMHO it is less likely that a switch fail and unintentionally grounds a wire
than a switch failing open. So slight edge to a system with a conventional
mag switch.
Anyway there is an easy fix - use two SPST switches instead of a SPDT one.
Each half of the system gets its own switch. Although William doesn't
recommended it there is also nothing that keeps you from running both halves
of the system at the same time.
Bottom line is that any aircraft has potential single points of failure. The
question is what is likely to fail. For example it is possible to add
another plug to the Corvair heads (it has been done). But in the opinion of
some it adds more risk than it removes. It forces you to remove some
critical cooling fins and alters the geometry of the chamber.
-- Craig
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Foxcon - Subaru 4 coil ignition |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" <John.Hines@craftontull.com>
Since we are talking about auto conversions... There is an Australian
company called Foxcon that has a Subaru conversion with a four coil
ignition system. I was wondering if anyone on this list has heard
anything about it. Their website is www.foxcon.com and here is what
they say about it:
Foxcon Aviation & Research Pty Ltd is proud to introduce the latest
safety feature: an Independent Ignition System that eliminates the risk
of forced landings due to alternator failures.
Modified car engines for ultralight aircraft e.g. the Subaru EA 81
commonly operate on single ignition. There are often discussions whether
they should have dual ignition like certified engines for additional
safety and better combustion.
Foxcon Aviation has developed an independent ignition system for each
cylinder: should one system fail, the engine will continue operating on
the remaining cylinders.
The Foxcon independent ignition system has a modified distributor rotor
and cap. There are four independent ignition coils, one for each
cylinder. The power consumption is only about 10 % of a conventional
system with points, hence in the case of an alternator failure, the
battery will power the engine for hours. Additionally, because of the
reduced power consumption, the coils operate at a lower temperature,
which enhances reliability. The only features common within the system
are the power supply and the distributor.
John R. Hines
IT Manager
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
Rogers, AR 72756
Office: 479-878-2449
Mobile: 479-366-4783
Fax: 479-631-6224
John.Hines@craftontull.com
www.craftontull.com
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs
of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message
contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named.
If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute
or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have
received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If
you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information
is strictly prohibited.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
I guess you would point it to the ground and hope you had a heart attack
before you got there........... I have been reading these posts for way to long
about this subject. I don't care what power plant you are using you WILL have
a failure at some point. With that said I would worry a lot more about some
dumb thing you had done that causes you problems rather than worrying about a
redundant system failing. I am going corvair but I have my concerns about the
ignition system so I am going to take extra care when wiring it so I don't
think about it every time I go flying (What's the fun in that)? One point no
one has brought up is on a corvair you have duel points and duel coils, etc.,
etc., but what if the distributor shaft itself breaks? I think we understand
the dangers in our choices but a lycoming breaks just as anything else would,
so I figure as long as the engine stays whole and I don't panic I can get
her down safely.
Do not archive
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
Having built my Wynne-Vair 2900 with the generous assistance and
guidance of the WW crew, the satisfaction of completing it and the
knowledge and understanding of it is such that I would not trade it for
a brand new Jab. I expect to fly behind it in more comfort than I would
any new engine I could have purchased.
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Smith
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
...Now is the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it.
The corvair does not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i
will have no choice. Thank you.
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Bingo!
Electrical systems do fail...and quite often. This is why on the Soobs
we all (well most of us) do not interconnect the two electrical systems
save for the diode that seperates the two batteries. That way a single
alternator can charge both the batteries but each battery has a fuel
pump and an ignition system all to itself. When you uses individual SPST
switches this effectively isolates electrical single points of failure.
On the Soob dual ign setup the HT leads comes out of each coil and goes
thru the MSD coil joiner (basically two high voltage diodes) and to the
distributor. These have a zero failure rate as far as anyone knows.
You correct in that the Mag "changeover" switch works the other way
round...I still don't like it and on the RV I have individual switches
for this as well. But the idea is the lead can go open circuit and the
engine will continue to run....But why risk a short to ground if you
don't have to.
Anecdotal reliability info says that ignitor chips (electronic
ignition), coils and switches are items that fail more often than
mechanical components so avoiding single points of failure is highly
desirable.
Frank
HDS Soob 400 hours
RV7a...paint
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:55 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>> And what happens if that changeover switch fails?
Roughly the same thing that happens if your mag switch fails. But not
exactly - as I understand it a mag switch grounds a lead to turn off a
mag.
IMHO it is less likely that a switch fail and unintentionally grounds a
wire than a switch failing open. So slight edge to a system with a
conventional mag switch.
Anyway there is an easy fix - use two SPST switches instead of a SPDT
one.
Each half of the system gets its own switch. Although William doesn't
recommended it there is also nothing that keeps you from running both
halves of the system at the same time.
Bottom line is that any aircraft has potential single points of failure.
The question is what is likely to fail. For example it is possible to
add another plug to the Corvair heads (it has been done). But in the
opinion of some it adds more risk than it removes. It forces you to
remove some critical cooling fins and alters the geometry of the
chamber.
-- Craig
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
Yup...Minimise the risks, make sure you got hull insurance and pray you
get to cash the check!
Frank
HDS soob..>Well not really I sold it
________________________________
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:06 AM
I guess you would point it to the ground and hope you had a heart attack
before you got there........... I have been reading these posts for way
to long about this subject. I don't care what power plant you are using
you WILL have a failure at some point. With that said I would worry a
lot more about some dumb thing you had done that causes you problems
rather than worrying about a redundant system failing. I am going
corvair but I have my concerns about the ignition system so I am going
to take extra care when wiring it so I don't think about it every time I
go flying (What's the fun in that)? One point no one has brought up is
on a corvair you have duel points and duel coils, etc., etc., but what
if the distributor shaft itself breaks? I think we understand the
dangers in our choices but a lycoming breaks just as anything else
would, so I figure as long as the engine stays whole and I don't panic I
can get her down safely.
Do not archive
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Foxcon - Subaru 4 coil ignition |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hmm...What they forget to mention I the standard Subaru ignitor chip is
so feeble (and cost $300 if your ever foolish enough to go buy one) it
should go straight in the trash before ever seeing your airplane..:)
This sounds similar to to what Ram performance is using, but I know very
little about it.
Frank
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines"
--> <John.Hines@craftontull.com>
Since we are talking about auto conversions... There is an Australian
company called Foxcon that has a Subaru conversion with a four coil
ignition system. I was wondering if anyone on this list has heard
anything about it. Their website is www.foxcon.com and here is what
they say about it:
Message 19
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|
Bill
Excellent article! It sums up everything very well. I particularly liked
your comment on posting helping to clear the mind
Roger Venables
CH701
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:57 AM
All-
Draft article attached.
Bill
do not archive
JULY 5, 2006
EAA-
Please consider the following draft article for publication in an
upcoming
SA edition:
"Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are no exception.
Divide the world's
population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find that
there
aren't that many "Birds"
available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when the
Wright brothers had to wait
months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet
builder's
group, you can correspond
instantaneously with other "Birds" building something similar to your
project.
Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. Things went
acceptably
well, so I
maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With all the
confidence of the
hopelessly na=EFve, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build myself
(Or
more accurately,
mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and tried
to
sell the project.
Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's site to
builders
who were flying
and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral
support,
I was able to rebuild
myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project and
eventually recommended
that I join the international builder's list.
After participating on the builder's list for over a year I realized
that I
wasn't the only
one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought it was
important that SA readers
be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my belief and
responded to a
questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What follows is a
compilation of their responses:
The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading the posts of
others
you can get
a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished
product.
Forewarned of recurring
problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of
finished product limitations,
you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and
expectations before it's too late.
75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an
average
of 2 months after they
had purchased their kit or plans.
Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major reason given for
joining a list, even
though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is the
fact
that the internet is acting
as an alternative to face-to-face interaction.
Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. Some listers are
more
comfortable
remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the fray. Yes,
fray. Don't forget, you're
dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and sisters,
and
I guarantee you at
times you'll fight like siblings!
When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for technical or
social reasons"
the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted macho
response, because
when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted that
once
friendships had been
established, social communication was an added bonus.
Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of technical advice.
The
common
response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely slow
in
coming. As an
alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list
recommendations with EAA
Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the first to
respond, with a factory
blessing weeks or even months later.
Just about every respondent encountered a major problem while building.
There
were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans, instructions,
interpretation of the instructions,
or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been avoided
by
posting a question or
researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet the
manufacturer's projected
build time.
Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a major problem,
with
the average
builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more background in
psychology than me will
have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a
builder's
mind to be able to come up
with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open for
everyone to offer moral and/or
technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the
ensuing
interchange will become
a permanent part of the archives to help builders in the future.
Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list membership
was
beneficial,
and recommending membership to new builders.
Good building!
William J. Naumuk EAA# 336752
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris <mijniljj@yahoo.com>
I think you made a good choise because this engine had
more research and developement than all of the Lyc.
and Cont. put together and is only going to be runing
at 50 to 60 percent power and with the crankshaft
problem behind us it will have fewer failures than the
others n the next few years including the Jab.
Jim
--- Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote:
> Having built my Wynne-Vair 2900 with the generous
> assistance and guidance of the WW crew, the
> satisfaction of completing it and the knowledge and
> understanding of it is such that I would not trade
> it for a brand new Jab. I expect to fly behind it in
> more comfort than I would any new engine I could
> have purchased.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Christopher Smith
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
>
>
> ...Now is the time to promote your engine of
> choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need
> defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will
> have no choice. Thank you.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris <mijniljj@yahoo.com>
I think you made a good choise because this engine had
more research and developement than all of the Lyc.
and Cont. put together and is only going to be runing
at 50 to 60 percent power and with the crankshaft
problem behind us it will have fewer failures than the
others n the next few years including the Jab.
Jim
--- Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote:
> Having built my Wynne-Vair 2900 with the generous
> assistance and guidance of the WW crew, the
> satisfaction of completing it and the knowledge and
> understanding of it is such that I would not trade
> it for a brand new Jab. I expect to fly behind it in
> more comfort than I would any new engine I could
> have purchased.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Christopher Smith
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
>
>
> ...Now is the time to promote your engine of
> choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need
> defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will
> have no choice. Thank you.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool advice |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
The roller tool does not produce a nice result in my hands. Some other guys have
said that is the usual result, so I guess it will look good on the wall of the
shop from here on out.
I thought about using a thin kerf saw blade to cut a slot along the edge of a one
by four just to put the least bit of "down"on the edge before rivetting. I
definitely agree that if you bend the edge enough to see it after rivetting, it
would be better not to do it at all.
Today, while waitng for an xray on a root canal, it came to me to try using the
band saw to cut a J - shaped slot into the end of a board. It may take some experimentation
with scraps but if the J is the right size and shape I could slide
it onto the edge of the skin until it bottoms out, then slide it along the
edge from one end to the other, hopefully leaving a gentle curl to the edge that
will flatten out when the clecos and rivets pull it down. If I get the idea
to work, I'll send you and the list a photo. Might turn out to be a brain fart
or a really good innovation, who knows?
Thanks for chiming in,
Ed
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging tool advice |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Thanks Bill, I'm working on a similar idea that came to me at the office today
and if it works, I'll post the results.
Ed
---- Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
> Ed-
> Jeff Small went the other route with a bender that was only about 1/2" wide,
if that. I remember him saying that he made it out of a really hard wood
like walnut or rosewood and had to cut the kerf with a jeweler's saw.
> I was too impatient to use his technique and since I did it the way you were
going to try will have to roll out some high spots. It works, but I'll wind
up with a net loss timewise.
> You might check in the archives for Jeff's tool. I used to have a picture
but had a hard drive crash last year that probably wiped everything out.
> Bill
> do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | don't archive!!! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its Friday, the
Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours, the next weekend
is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a root canal.
Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant!
Zed/701/R912/took 13 hours but we hung the wings/do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender?
Ed Moody II
Do Not Archive
---- Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote:
> I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be one
> soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding on
> what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people on
> this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I will ask
> lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank you for
> the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your words on
> the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way!
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: don't archive!!! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Not when I do them! You just need a nicer dentist.
Ed
PS: What? No bite on the guitar controversy? I am depressed.
---- Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
>
> A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its Friday,
the Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours, the next weekend
is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a root canal.
>
> Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant!
Message 27
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| Subject: | don't archive!!! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" <John.Hines@craftontull.com>
Can you use green scotchbrite pads on a Corvair?
John R. Hines
IT Manager
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
Rogers, AR 72756
Office: 479-878-2449
Mobile: 479-366-4783
Fax: 479-631-6224
John.Hines@craftontull.com
www.craftontull.com
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs
of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zed Smith
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:06 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its
Friday, the Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours,
the next weekend is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a
root canal.
Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant!
Zed/701/R912/took 13 hours but we hung the wings/do not archive
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message
contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named.
If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute
or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have
received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If
you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information
is strictly prohibited.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" <John.Hines@craftontull.com>
Gibson vs. Fender? What about Kramer, hammer, Ibanez, G&L, Peavey, &
Yamaha? Are you questioning my choice of playing a Peavey? You must be
an elitist guitar snob!! LOL - Sorry, I couldn't resist!
DO NOT ARCHIVE
John R. Hines
IT Manager
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
Rogers, AR 72756
Office: 479-878-2449
Mobile: 479-366-4783
Fax: 479-631-6224
John.Hines@craftontull.com
www.craftontull.com
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs
of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
dredmoody@cox.net
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:13 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender?
Ed Moody II
Do Not Archive
---- Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote:
> I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be
one
> soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding
on
> what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people
on
> this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I
will ask
> lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank
you for
> the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your
words on
> the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way!
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message
contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named.
If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute
or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have
received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If
you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information
is strictly prohibited.
Message 29
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
No, John.....the green Scotchbrite pads are most useful to polish all those BBs
there in Daisy-Land.
Now you explain to the audience about the secrets of living next door to a weapons
manufacturer.
Regards,
Zed
do not archive
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net>
Ah!!! Now that's the list I know. Let the urination commence!
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:24 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines"
> <John.Hines@craftontull.com>
>
> Gibson vs. Fender? What about Kramer, hammer, Ibanez, G&L, Peavey, &
> Yamaha? Are you questioning my choice of playing a Peavey? You must be
> an elitist guitar snob!! LOL - Sorry, I couldn't resist!
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> John R. Hines
> IT Manager
> Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
> 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
> Rogers, AR 72756
> Office: 479-878-2449
> Mobile: 479-366-4783
> Fax: 479-631-6224
> John.Hines@craftontull.com
> www.craftontull.com
>
> Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the
> needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> dredmoody@cox.net
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:13 PM
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
>
> Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender?
>
> Ed Moody II
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> ---- Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be
> one
>> soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding
> on
>> what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people
> on
>> this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I
> will ask
>> lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank
> you for
>> the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your
> words on
>> the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way!
>
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.
> This message contains confidential information and is intended only for
> the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not
> disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender
> immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and
> delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient
> you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any
> action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
> prohibited.
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
Way to go!!! Make a Decision and Stick to your guns !! We all Recognize and
Applaud Courage of Conviction. BRAVO !!
do not archive
Message 32
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Some poor guy is racked up in Ed's chair, got half a bale of cotton stuffed into
his cheeks, enough pain killer that he can't feel his elbows, his has squeezed
the chair arms until his knuckles are white (and bleeding), there are hoses,
clamps and thing-a-dooeys hanging from his numb lips, the assortment of "tools"
on the tray looks like Diesel Mechanics 101, and Ed is playing on the Internet.
Do you use an A4 or A5 to seal a root canal?
do not archive or drill
Zed
Message 33
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <n282rs@earthlink.net>
William Wynne's own crank had stress fractures in it. This was a standard
conversion. I'm sure that's what convinced him to recommend nitriding the
cranks. I did not have a prop extension, or horsepower upgrade and yet my
crank broke. My crank had not been nitrided either, but then I had never
heard of a crank failure on a Corvair until about a year or so ago. I
figured since they have been flying Corvairs on Peitenpols since the 60's,
I didn't see any rush. Since my crank break, I have come to realize that we
have been flying these engines much harder than the Pietenpol guys do.
Possible reasons for my crank break:
Case being "sloppy". I wish I had the measuring equipment to verify this
one way or another.
Prop out of balance. Maybe. I know I'm going to get it dynamically
balanced when I get it flying again.
Max performance takeoffs. Nearly every flight began that way.
Cruising at 3100 rpm or higher. I almost always pushed the engine hard. I
think WW usually cruises at 2900 rpm.
I'm not completely convinced about the nitriding, because it is a hardening
process. If one where to pose the question of whether or not to substitute
grade 8 bolts for AN bolts, the argument would normally be that grade 8
have been hardened and are more brittle than an AN bolt . It would not be
able to take the bending moment that an AN bolt could. For some reason it
must be different on a crankshaft, but I don't understand why. However,
since the experts have determined that nitriding is the way to go, I will
follow.
Something we all need to do regardless of the engine we fly behind: When
you hear of a crash, engine failure, or other incident, play the scenario
out in your mind. Maybe even while sitting in the cockpit. Plan what you
could do to survive the situation. Look at your plane and see if you need
to change something to keep the same problem from occurring to you. Maybe
inspect the parts that may have contributed to the incident.
Randy Stout
n282rs"at"earthlink.net
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
> [Original Message]
> From: Tom Farin <tfarin@farin.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 7/7/2006 8:34:40 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06
>
>
> The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the
last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the Corvair
engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in
1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at Corvaircraft, on
William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site. Mark had one of the
four failures. The consensus seems to be that in all four cases the
installation deviated from the instructions in Wynne's manual - prop
extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way that placed additional
stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark and William put
substantial time into examining the causes of the failures. In spite of
the fact there are no known crank failures on installations per the WW
manual, WW is now recommending the crank be Nitrided to give it additional
strength. In spite of a harrowing experience, Mark is again flying with a
stock WW conversion.
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Corvair Forums and Info |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
The best info on the Corvair engine conversion is on William Wynne's web
site:
www.flycorvair.com
There is also another forum for the Corvair conversion where these kinds of
discussions are more on topic:
http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
>From: "Christopher Smith" <ch601xl@gmail.com>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Bashing and other irritating,
>close-minded individuals...
>Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:35:30 -0500
>
>Thank you Tom, But Mr. Maxson post was insulting to someone who just wanted
>info. Now I know Mr.Maxson's post was not pointed my way but we all just
>wanted to understand.
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Corvair cranks |
Install a different engine ? Just had to do it. I don't know what got into
me. I cam only blame global warming, sun spots, green Scotchbite and huffing
zinc chromate
do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Robin,
You know a level of satisfaction that many other homebuilders will not know.
You built the engine yourself (with help from experts of course). This is
one of the main reasons I chose the Corvair and stuck with the rebuilding
sub-project. It is great fun. I learned more from that than from the rest
of the project.
Now, this evening, I'm going flying.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
>From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
>Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:24:19 -0500
>
>Having built my Wynne-Vair 2900 with the generous assistance and guidance
>of the WW crew, the satisfaction of completing it and the knowledge and
>understanding of it is such that I would not trade it for a brand new Jab.
>I expect to fly behind it in more comfort than I would any new engine I
>could have purchased.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Christopher Smith
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
>
>
> ...Now is the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The
>corvair does not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will
>have no choice. Thank you.
>
Message 37
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" <millrML@AOL.com>
At the risk of interrupting the enlightning Corvair engine discussion, I'd like
to ask for input on building of the XL wings.
I have currently riveted the right wing skeleton together, pilot drilled and clecoed
the top skin, turned the wing over and drilled bottom and nose skin to A5
and A4 respectively, clecoed the bottom rear and nose skin.
My plan, with the ZAC assembly pictures and discription a little thin here, was
to remove all bottom clecos, debur and Zinc C the bottom skins, rivet nose ribs
on, rivet bottom and nose skin on, then turn wing over to install tank and
finish up on top.(ie., wing tip, locker, wiring, etc.)
The assembly pics on the CD and ZAC site sort of jump around on different stages
here. Am I doing this in correct order, or did I miss something along the way?
Thanks in advance...
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL, 3300
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45559#45559
Message 38
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| Subject: | Oh my gawd, we're all goin' die! |
Nor on a Jab!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave"
<daberti@sbcglobal.net<about:blank>>
Not on a Rotax!
-----Original Message-----
A tach could easily kill an ignition...All it has to do is short the
signal wire to ground and that ign will stop working.
do not archive
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Corvair Conversions |
Chris,
Please check out the web sight, corvaircraft.com. There you will find the
link to the Corvair List, which is a more appropriate place for you to get
info. I don't wish to belabor this point with the good Zenith builders on
this list. Better yet, invest the $150 or so to get WW's manual which will
answer virtually every question you have concerning Corvair conversions. If
you are truly interested in experimental aviation this will be a very small
investment.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Do not arcive.
Gary & Randy,
I would like to point out that I just wanted info on the corvair. Please
read the posts & you will see that. I said some things wrong that made it
sound as if I was lumping all corvair builders into the same group. For that
I am sorry (Think I have said I'm Sorry more in the last day than the last
10 years). But please take time to understand that some of you take
criticism to questions of reliability. I will say this only once......To
walk info anything in aviation blind could cost you your life. That does not
mean that just because the batt might quit and take the engine with it is
better or worse than engine x y or z. But if I choose the corvair not caring
what makes it differ from any other engine, Then I am a bad builder, a bad
pilot. Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics of
engine? I think not. Someone took the time to answer your questions. Now is
the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair does
not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choice.
Thank you.
On 7/6/06, Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question
crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every time you
mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out you are
using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh...
OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic flight at
Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable for flight?
I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in 1903, one of the
biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough power and still light
enough for flight... They used what they had, what they could make and what
they could find or invent. At some point between then and now, someone has
taken or was given the authority to say what's "certified" and what's not...
That being said, the word "certified" is still someone's opinion. They can
say one engine is certified and one is not...
If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying Machine
Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but certified by
whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean that all the
other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone else builds/copies
of my original design, that accomplishes the same work as mine, at half the
cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I could say that and tell the
world that, but would it be correct..? No, just an opinion...mine.
Along the same thought of:
The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no rules,
no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made rules, set
up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to govern the activity
they introduced to the world and anyone, who from then till today, that
plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew... Something wrong with that
picture... Who gave the "authorities" the authority???
Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are:
1. I'll be there on Friday.
2. The check is in the mail.
3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you.
Bottom line is:
We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own efforts.
I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because you choose to
do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you work and efforts are
fruitless and void... You have to do it to a degree that is pleases you.
Keep in mind what the role of the part is, that's in question, and build the
part to accomplish its designated role... Heck, I've seen pictures of parts
built for homebuilts, even Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet on my wheel barrow and
trust... but the guy that built it, built it for himself, to suit himself,
to accomplish the task he planned for it to do...and that's good enough for
me.
Randy
XL Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM
Chris, Paul,
I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe - No,
actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and they
have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today!!!
So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of
experimental aviation that truly inspires me!
My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and the
601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought
processes before making any opinion about the Corvair - or don't.
Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your questions
answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net
<http://www.corvaircraft@mylist.net/>
Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and fly
is your own business.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Mike,
I think you are on the right track.
I ran into serious problems after riveting the nose skin on the
bottom and then discovering I didn't position it correctly to make
the right position on the main spar angle on the top. I would
suggest you check this positioning carefully.
Also, I didn't follow the suggestion in the photo guide to install
temporary solid rivets to keep the alignment between the top skin and
main spar. Instead, I went ahead and drilled the top skin and
clecoed it to the spar before turning over and doing the
bottom. Whichever method you use, make sure the position of the top
rear skin is fixed to the main spar to keep the rear ribs in the
proper (perpendicular) angle to the spar before fixing the skins on
the bottom.
Other than that, I think you have it going just fine.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 01:55 PM 7/7/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" <millrML@AOL.com>
>
>At the risk of interrupting the enlightning Corvair engine
>discussion, I'd like to ask for input on building of the XL wings.
>
>I have currently riveted the right wing skeleton together, pilot
>drilled and clecoed the top skin, turned the wing over and drilled
>bottom and nose skin to A5 and A4 respectively, clecoed the bottom
>rear and nose skin.
>
>My plan, with the ZAC assembly pictures and discription a little
>thin here, was to remove all bottom clecos, debur and Zinc C the
>bottom skins, rivet nose ribs on, rivet bottom and nose skin on,
>then turn wing over to install tank and finish up on top.(ie., wing
>tip, locker, wiring, etc.)
>
>The assembly pics on the CD and ZAC site sort of jump around on
>different stages here. Am I doing this in correct order, or did I
>miss something along the way?
>
>Thanks in advance...
>
>--------
>Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
>601 XL, 3300
>
>Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45559#45559
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Building |
Mike, It sounds like you have the procedure down right. Remember to leave
the rivets out where the flap hinge goes. Also leave the clecoes in the nose
skin and the first nose rib outboard of the fuel tank. That is in case you
have to "jiggle" the nose rib to get the fuel tank in place, according to ZAC.
Assuming that confession is good for the soul (and an admonition to others),
I confess: I moved those clecoes inside. I only realized I had forgotten
about them after everything was riveted (except those pesky inside clecoes). So
I cut an "inspection" hole in the bottom of the nose skin, large enough to
get my hand in and retrieve the clecoes. Build and learn!
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
Do not archive
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
I'd say yes. That's exactly what I did and it seemed to work fine. My wings
are now finished on the bottom with tanks and lockers installed, but tops
still clecoed for access for wiring etc.
Robin in AR, 601XL w/Wynne-Vair 2900
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:55 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" <millrML@AOL.com>
>
> At the risk of interrupting the enlightning Corvair engine discussion, I'd
> like to ask for input on building of the XL wings.
>
> I have currently riveted the right wing skeleton together, pilot drilled
> and clecoed the top skin, turned the wing over and drilled bottom and nose
> skin to A5 and A4 respectively, clecoed the bottom rear and nose skin.
>
> My plan, with the ZAC assembly pictures and discription a little thin
> here, was to remove all bottom clecos, debur and Zinc C the bottom skins,
> rivet nose ribs on, rivet bottom and nose skin on, then turn wing over to
> install tank and finish up on top.(ie., wing tip, locker, wiring, etc.)
>
> The assembly pics on the CD and ZAC site sort of jump around on different
> stages here. Am I doing this in correct order, or did I miss something
> along the way?
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
> --------
> Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
> 601 XL, 3300
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Conversions |
That invaluable WW Conversion Manual is only $59.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:17 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
Chris,
Please check out the web sight, corvaircraft.com. There you will find
the link to the Corvair List, which is a more appropriate place for you
to get info. I don't wish to belabor this point with the good Zenith
builders on this list. Better yet, invest the $150 or so to get WW's
manual which will answer virtually every question you have concerning
Corvair conversions. If you are truly interested in experimental
aviation this will be a very small investment.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Do not arcive.
Gary & Randy,
I would like to point out that I just wanted info on the corvair.
Please read the posts & you will see that. I said some things wrong
that made it sound as if I was lumping all corvair builders into the
same group. For that I am sorry (Think I have said I'm Sorry more in the
last day than the last 10 years). But please take time to understand
that some of you take criticism to questions of reliability. I will say
this only once......To walk info anything in aviation blind could cost
you your life. That does not mean that just because the batt might quit
and take the engine with it is better or worse than engine x y or z. But
if I choose the corvair not caring what makes it differ from any other
engine, Then I am a bad builder, a bad pilot. Did anyone on this list
choose the corvair with knowing the basics of engine? I think not.
Someone took the time to answer your questions. Now is the time to
promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need
defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choice. Thank
you.
On 7/6/06, Randy Bryant <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com> wrote:
I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question
crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every time
you mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out
you are using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh...
OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic
flight at Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable
for flight? I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in
1903, one of the biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough
power and still light enough for flight... They used what they had,
what they could make and what they could find or invent. At some point
between then and now, someone has taken or was given the authority to
say what's "certified" and what's not... That being said, the word
"certified" is still someone's opinion. They can say one engine is
certified and one is not...
If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying
Machine Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but
certified by whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean
that all the other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone
else builds/copies of my original design, that accomplishes the same
work as mine, at half the cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I
could say that and tell the world that, but would it be correct..? No,
just an opinion...mine.
Along the same thought of:
The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no
rules, no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made
rules, set up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to
govern the activity they introduced to the world and anyone, who from
then till today, that plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew...
Something wrong with that picture... Who gave the "authorities" the
authority???
Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are:
1. I'll be there on Friday.
2. The check is in the mail.
3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you.
Bottom line is:
We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own
efforts. I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because
you choose to do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you
work and efforts are fruitless and void... You have to do it to a
degree that is pleases you. Keep in mind what the role of the part is,
that's in question, and build the part to accomplish its designated
role... Heck, I've seen pictures of parts built for homebuilts, even
Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet on my wheel barrow and trust... but the guy
that built it, built it for himself, to suit himself, to accomplish the
task he planned for it to do...and that's good enough for me.
Randy
XL Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions
Chris, Paul,
I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe - No,
actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and
they have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are
today!!!
So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of
experimental aviation that truly inspires me!
My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and
the 601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought
processes before making any opinion about the Corvair - or don't.
Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your
questions answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net
Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and
fly is your own business.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
--
Christopher W. E. Smith
fly1m1
http://ch-601xl.com
Message 44
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| Subject: | weight of engines? |
Isn't the corvair engine about the same weight as a continental 0-200?
Wouldn't both reduce the useful load of the 601xl ? What is the useful load of
the
factory built LSA with the 0-235 in it? Just courious. Thanks. Jeff;
waiting on wing kit.
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair cranks |
I'm not so sure that nitriding will eliminate...or even help the Corvair
crank breaking problem...
I'm not an expert on nitriding, but I've been around it a little in my
time... I used to machine plastic ejection molds and tooling dies... There
are what's called "ejector pins" that the tops of mold and dies slide up and
down on to make the 2 halves meet properly...
If you can imagine a 4 legged table sitting on it's top with the 4 legs in
the air, then cut a piece of plywood with 4 holes in it to fit over the legs
and slide up and down, this is what it's equivalent to... The legs would be
the ejector pins. (I've attached a picture of a MUD Die) We used to have
these pins nitrided all the time... Nitriding, at least what the nitriders
told me, is that it doesn't make the part more resistant to breakage, but it
makes it tougher from a wear perspective... I know on molds and dies, the
top half sliding up and down through every cycle on the ejector pins, they
would wear, then the 2 halves wouldn't match up right...they'd mis-match...
We'd nitride these pins to make their outer surface harder to resist
wear...they'd still break as easily as they were before nitriding, if side
load was applied, their outter surface just didn't wear as fast... You can
hit a nitrided part with a file and the file will just bounce off it...but
keep on filing, and in a few thousandths, you'll be through the nitriding
and the steel will be soft as ever... SO,
from my limited experience and knowledge of nitriding, if I was having a
crankshaft that was wearing out quickly on the bearing journals, nitriding
seems like a good cure..but to use as a cure for breakage from side load, it
just doesn't make sense to me... In my thinking, you'd need a flange and a
thrust bearing to handle side loads... Anyone out there care to elaborate
more on nitriding??
Maybe I'm way off base here... Don't know... I will say that at this time I
plan on using a WW Corvair conversion in my XL when the time comes... Good
lord, I'm just working on the wings right now! ;-)
Just my .02 worth...
Randy
XL Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:21 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <n282rs@earthlink.net>
>
> William Wynne's own crank had stress fractures in it. This was a standard
> conversion. I'm sure that's what convinced him to recommend nitriding the
> cranks. I did not have a prop extension, or horsepower upgrade and yet my
> crank broke. My crank had not been nitrided either, but then I had never
> heard of a crank failure on a Corvair until about a year or so ago. I
> figured since they have been flying Corvairs on Peitenpols since the 60's,
> I didn't see any rush. Since my crank break, I have come to realize that
> we
> have been flying these engines much harder than the Pietenpol guys do.
>
> Possible reasons for my crank break:
> Case being "sloppy". I wish I had the measuring equipment to verify this
> one way or another.
> Prop out of balance. Maybe. I know I'm going to get it dynamically
> balanced when I get it flying again.
> Max performance takeoffs. Nearly every flight began that way.
> Cruising at 3100 rpm or higher. I almost always pushed the engine hard. I
> think WW usually cruises at 2900 rpm.
>
> I'm not completely convinced about the nitriding, because it is a
> hardening
> process. If one where to pose the question of whether or not to substitute
> grade 8 bolts for AN bolts, the argument would normally be that grade 8
> have been hardened and are more brittle than an AN bolt . It would not be
> able to take the bending moment that an AN bolt could. For some reason it
> must be different on a crankshaft, but I don't understand why. However,
> since the experts have determined that nitriding is the way to go, I will
> follow.
>
> Something we all need to do regardless of the engine we fly behind: When
> you hear of a crash, engine failure, or other incident, play the scenario
> out in your mind. Maybe even while sitting in the cockpit. Plan what you
> could do to survive the situation. Look at your plane and see if you need
> to change something to keep the same problem from occurring to you. Maybe
> inspect the parts that may have contributed to the incident.
>
> Randy Stout
> n282rs"at"earthlink.net
> www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Tom Farin <tfarin@farin.com>
>> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>> Date: 7/7/2006 8:34:40 AM
>> Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06
>>
>
>>
>> The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the
> last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the
> Corvair
> engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in
> 1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at Corvaircraft, on
> William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site. Mark had one of the
> four failures. The consensus seems to be that in all four cases the
> installation deviated from the instructions in Wynne's manual - prop
> extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way that placed additional
> stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark and William put
> substantial time into examining the causes of the failures. In spite of
> the fact there are no known crank failures on installations per the WW
> manual, WW is now recommending the crank be Nitrided to give it additional
> strength. In spite of a harrowing experience, Mark is again flying with a
> stock WW conversion.
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 46
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net>
Tourjour consevative.... I use A4 set flush with a flat nose piece.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:15 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
>
> Some poor guy is racked up in Ed's chair, got half a bale of cotton
> stuffed into his cheeks, enough pain killer that he can't feel his elbows,
> his has squeezed the chair arms until his knuckles are white (and
> bleeding), there are hoses, clamps and thing-a-dooeys hanging from his
> numb lips, the assortment of "tools" on the tray looks like Diesel
> Mechanics 101, and Ed is playing on the Internet.
>
> Do you use an A4 or A5 to seal a root canal?
>
> do not archive or drill
>
> Zed
>
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | don't archive!!! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
My first guitar cost $1.50. It was a Kay with a little problem with the body.
I used a knife and gently cut the back off and then used damp cloths to soften
the front and put it back into shape. I traded up to a well worn Gretsch and
then to a Les Paul. I've owned several Fenders over the years. I think the
Les Paul Deluxe is the best guitar ever made.
There are Gibson's and there are guitars. (Sorry, no Corvairs (Epiphones), Rotaxes(Rickenbackers),
Subaru's (Yahamas), VW's (Peavey)). My apologies in advance
to those who are offended by non-aviation posts.
These days, with my reduced hearing capacity, I get by with an old Elkhart (sp)
Upright Bass.
When I'm down around Rayne, Lafayette and Crowley I listen to the bands at some
of the Cajun joints. One of the best meals I had was Wild Duck Gumbo at the
Acadia Parish School Board maintenance shop............
So there, I bit, er... gummed.
Absolutely, Positively, Mr Bowes.... Do Not Archive
Tommy Walker in Lower Slobovia
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
dredmoody@cox.net
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:15 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Not when I do them! You just need a nicer dentist.
Ed
PS: What? No bite on the guitar controversy? I am depressed.
---- Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
>
> A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its Friday,
the Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours, the next weekend
is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a root canal.
>
> Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant!
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net>
I rivetted the nose ribs (completed the skeleton) before drilling and
clecoing any of the skins. I don't see a problem with doing it in the order
you described. You will find it easier to cut and finish access hatches
before the skin is rivetted to the skeleton. Also (probably obvious) make
sure you have all conduit, wiring, and plumbing done to your satisfaction
before riveting the nose and top rear skin. The aileron bellcrank brakets
should be rivetted to rear rib 7 before rivetting any skins, and the aileron
pushrod should be finished before rivetting the top rear skin. Rigging
aileron cables can be done via the bellcrank access hatch later when the
wings are mated to the fuselage.
Anybody see a problem with any of this?
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / wings
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" <millrML@AOL.com>
>
> At the risk of interrupting the enlightning Corvair engine discussion, I'd
> like to ask for input on building of the XL wings.
>
> I have currently riveted the right wing skeleton together, pilot drilled
> and clecoed the top skin, turned the wing over and drilled bottom and nose
> skin to A5 and A4 respectively, clecoed the bottom rear and nose skin.
>
> My plan, with the ZAC assembly pictures and discription a little thin
> here, was to remove all bottom clecos, debur and Zinc C the bottom skins,
> rivet nose ribs on, rivet bottom and nose skin on, then turn wing over to
> install tank and finish up on top.(ie., wing tip, locker, wiring, etc.)
>
> The assembly pics on the CD and ZAC site sort of jump around on different
> stages here. Am I doing this in correct order, or did I miss something
> along the way?
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
> --------
> Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair cranks |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
There should be many hundreds of hours of nitrided crank testing happening
in 2006 and 2007. Just sit tight and we'll do all the test flying and keep
you informed.
This subject has been beaten to death on the Corvaircraft list. Search the
archives to your heart's content. I'll be test flying my nitrided crank
while you do!
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
Oshkosh Bound in a couple weeks.
>From: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair cranks
>Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 21:11:08 -0400
>
>I'm not so sure that nitriding will eliminate...or even help the Corvair
>crank breaking problem...
>
<<SNIP>>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" <jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca>
Peavy,,,,,,,,,waaashhhhhhhh! lollllll
not even good for beginners
J.P.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:24 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines"
<John.Hines@craftontull.com>
>
> Gibson vs. Fender? What about Kramer, hammer, Ibanez, G&L, Peavey, &
> Yamaha? Are you questioning my choice of playing a Peavey? You must be
> an elitist guitar snob!! LOL - Sorry, I couldn't resist!
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> John R. Hines
> IT Manager
> Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
> 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
> Rogers, AR 72756
> Office: 479-878-2449
> Mobile: 479-366-4783
> Fax: 479-631-6224
> John.Hines@craftontull.com
> www.craftontull.com
>
> Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the
needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> dredmoody@cox.net
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:13 PM
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
>
> Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender?
>
> Ed Moody II
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> ---- Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be
> one
> > soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding
> on
> > what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people
> on
> > this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I
> will ask
> > lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank
> you for
> > the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your
> words on
> > the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way!
>
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.
This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the
individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender
immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete
this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are
notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in
reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
>
>
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Building |
Personally, I would rig the bellcrank cables before colsing the wing. It is
probably possible to to the cable swaging through the access panel, but I felt
that it would be a real tight squeeze and a real hassle.
Jay in Dallas
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" <jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca>
Hey Ed, I've got a Telecaster and an old Strat that I just love! Mind you I
gave my old Gibson away but I won't get rid of my Lespaul,,,,,,, just in
case.
J.P.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:13 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
>
> Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender?
>
> Ed Moody II
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> ---- Christopher Smith <ch601xl@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be
one
> > soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding
on
> > what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people
on
> > this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I will
ask
> > lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank you
for
> > the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your words
on
> > the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way!
>
>
Message 53
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| Subject: | Getting started on CH601XL |
Hello Group ,first thanks for the comments/advise on my first post . At
that time I had planed to buy a kit and pick it up at the factory in my
travel trailer .I have since decided to plans build the 601XL ,this may
be optimistic thinking for a 72 year old .However as far as I know I
have no medical problems that I am aware of that would hinder my
completion .I got the plans a couple of weeks ago and I have completed
the wood forms for the tail section ,flaps and ailerons .Today I built
my 4' X 12' table and made my first aluminum order from Aircraft Spruce
for about half of the airframe .As I said in my earlier post I have been
flying a Cont. 0200 powered Soneria for the past 29 years along with my
trusty Tripacer .I read every post on this site and I am very pleased to
belong to such a great group ,so please bear with me if some of my
questions seem too simple . Wade Jones ,Plans # 6464 , South Texas
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: weight of engines? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
The AMD Zodiac XL claims 520 pounds useful load. It uses the
Continental O-200 rather than the Lycoming O-235.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
>Isn't the corvair engine about the same weight as a continental
>0-200? Wouldn't both reduce the useful load of the 601xl ? What is
>the useful load of the factory built LSA with the 0-235 in it? Just
>courious. Thanks. Jeff; waiting on wing kit.
-
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Ed,
Just one little detail that might be improved. The access hatch
cover for the fuel tank finger strainer overlaps both nose ribs, so
it might be easier to do that hatch after riveting the bottom nose skin.
Paul
XL Fuselage
>I rivetted the nose ribs (completed the skeleton) before drilling
>and clecoing any of the skins. I don't see a problem with doing it
>in the order you described. You will find it easier to cut and
>finish access hatches before the skin is rivetted to the skeleton.
>Also (probably obvious) make sure you have all conduit, wiring, and
>plumbing done to your satisfaction before riveting the nose and top
>rear skin. The aileron bellcrank brakets should be rivetted to rear
>rib 7 before rivetting any skins, and the aileron pushrod should be
>finished before rivetting the top rear skin. Rigging aileron cables
>can be done via the bellcrank access hatch later when the wings are
>mated to the fuselage.
>
>Anybody see a problem with any of this?
>
>Ed Moody II
>Rayne, LA
>601XL / wings
---
Message 56
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| Subject: | Seeking O-200 oil tank |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
Hello Listers:
Does anyone have a Continenatal O-200 oil tank for sale (oil sump,
kidney tank etc.). We are majoring the engine on our '59 C150 and our tank
has rusted through areas. It was taken to a "certified" welder who finished
destroying it for us. If you can help, please contact me.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive
Message 57
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Randy
Check out Mark Langford's site here:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/flexplate/problem.html
He broke his crank and did a lot of the legwork into finding out why and
finding the Nitride solution.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
<html><image
src="http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds/images/Empennage/Elevator.jpg
width="120"></html>
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Bryant
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:11 PM
I'm not so sure that nitriding will eliminate...or even help the Corvair
crank breaking problem...
I'm not an expert on nitriding, but I've been around it a little in my
time... I used to machine plastic ejection molds and tooling dies... There
are what's called "ejector pins" that the tops of mold and dies slide up and
down on to make the 2 halves meet properly...
If you can imagine a 4 legged table sitting on it's top with the 4 legs in
the air, then cut a piece of plywood with 4 holes in it to fit over the legs
and slide up and down, this is what it's equivalent to... The legs would be
the ejector pins. (I've attached a picture of a MUD Die) We used to have
these pins nitrided all the time... Nitriding, at least what the nitriders
told me, is that it doesn't make the part more resistant to breakage, but it
makes it tougher from a wear perspective... I know on molds and dies, the
top half sliding up and down through every cycle on the ejector pins, they
would wear, then the 2 halves wouldn't match up right...they'd mis-match...
We'd nitride these pins to make their outer surface harder to resist
wear...they'd still break as easily as they were before nitriding, if side
load was applied, their outter surface just didn't wear as fast... You can
hit a nitrided part with a file and the file will just bounce off it...but
keep on filing, and in a few thousandths, you'll be through the nitriding
and the steel will be soft as ever... SO,
from my limited experience and knowledge of nitriding, if I was having a
crankshaft that was wearing out quickly on the bearing journals, nitriding
seems like a good cure..but to use as a cure for breakage from side load, it
just doesn't make sense to me... In my thinking, you'd need a flange and a
thrust bearing to handle side loads... Anyone out there care to elaborate
more on nitriding??
Maybe I'm way off base here... Don't know... I will say that at this time I
plan on using a WW Corvair conversion in my XL when the time comes... Good
lord, I'm just working on the wings right now! ;-)
Just my .02 worth...
Randy
XL Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:21 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <n282rs@earthlink.net>
>
> William Wynne's own crank had stress fractures in it. This was a standard
> conversion. I'm sure that's what convinced him to recommend nitriding the
> cranks. I did not have a prop extension, or horsepower upgrade and yet my
> crank broke. My crank had not been nitrided either, but then I had never
> heard of a crank failure on a Corvair until about a year or so ago. I
> figured since they have been flying Corvairs on Peitenpols since the 60's,
> I didn't see any rush. Since my crank break, I have come to realize that
> we
> have been flying these engines much harder than the Pietenpol guys do.
>
> Possible reasons for my crank break:
> Case being "sloppy". I wish I had the measuring equipment to verify this
> one way or another.
> Prop out of balance. Maybe. I know I'm going to get it dynamically
> balanced when I get it flying again.
> Max performance takeoffs. Nearly every flight began that way.
> Cruising at 3100 rpm or higher. I almost always pushed the engine hard. I
> think WW usually cruises at 2900 rpm.
>
> I'm not completely convinced about the nitriding, because it is a
> hardening
> process. If one where to pose the question of whether or not to substitute
> grade 8 bolts for AN bolts, the argument would normally be that grade 8
> have been hardened and are more brittle than an AN bolt . It would not be
> able to take the bending moment that an AN bolt could. For some reason it
> must be different on a crankshaft, but I don't understand why. However,
> since the experts have determined that nitriding is the way to go, I will
> follow.
>
> Something we all need to do regardless of the engine we fly behind: When
> you hear of a crash, engine failure, or other incident, play the scenario
> out in your mind. Maybe even while sitting in the cockpit. Plan what you
> could do to survive the situation. Look at your plane and see if you need
> to change something to keep the same problem from occurring to you. Maybe
> inspect the parts that may have contributed to the incident.
>
> Randy Stout
> n282rs"at"earthlink.net
> www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Tom Farin <tfarin@farin.com>
>> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>> Date: 7/7/2006 8:34:40 AM
>> Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06
>>
>
>>
>> The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the
> last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the
> Corvair
> engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in
> 1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at Corvaircraft, on
> William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site. Mark had one of the
> four failures. The consensus seems to be that in all four cases the
> installation deviated from the instructions in Wynne's manual - prop
> extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way that placed additional
> stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark and William put
> substantial time into examining the causes of the failures. In spite of
> the fact there are no known crank failures on installations per the WW
> manual, WW is now recommending the crank be Nitrided to give it additional
> strength. In spite of a harrowing experience, Mark is again flying with a
> stock WW conversion.
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Seeking O-200 oil tank |
Randy:
I had some luck last year sealing small holes in my C-85 sump by brazing.
If the holes are small, you might try this before giving up on yours.
Cheers,
Bill
Do not archive
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
With all due respect.....I just got a call today from our local DAR and
guess what??? he asked me to go with him to pick up a RV-7 powered by a o-360
with a rod thru the case. I am not knocking Lycoming here just pointing out that
the mags didn't matter much in this case did they? I am getting sick of this
discussion that is really going no where fast.
Bottom line is that are the dual points truly redundant NO and the reason is
because there is only one shaft that drives the cam to open the points, we
know this and accept it but using armor plated wire and having a backup battery
and a crawl space to get to the engine in flight wont help you if you have
other issues. stop beating a dead horse or trying to convince us of what we
are in agreement with already.
Message 60
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| Subject: | Can we just lighten up? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Richard Vetterli <richvetterli@yahoo.com>
WOW!! Todays digest had 78 messages and most were long
and angry. Take a breath, folks. Go out and rivet
something. Remember, no fist fights at Oshkosh.
Rich Vetterli
601XL/Corvair
Tail complete, working on wings
Check it out at www.geocities.com/stixx5a
__________________________________________________
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon on Corvair engine |
This is why I'm thinking of scraping the 601XL idea and start building a
bi-plane... This way if one set of wings 'go bad', I'll have another,
redundant set! :-)
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine
With all due respect.....I just got a call today from our local DAR
and guess what??? he asked me to go with him to pick up a RV-7 powered
by a o-360 with a rod thru the case. I am not knocking Lycoming here
just pointing out that the mags didn't matter much in this case did
they? I am getting sick of this discussion that is really going no where
fast.
Bottom line is that are the dual points truly redundant NO and the
reason is because there is only one shaft that drives the cam to open
the points, we know this and accept it but using armor plated wire and
having a backup battery and a crawl space to get to the engine in flight
wont help you if you have other issues. stop beating a dead horse or
trying to convince us of what we are in agreement with already.
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