---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/07/06: 61 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:12 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (kevinbonds) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Frank Roskind) 3. 05:29 AM - Engine Failures. (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 05:32 AM - Re: Here it is (Bill Naumuk) 5. 05:32 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Frank Roskind) 6. 06:08 AM - Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (2thesky) 7. 06:19 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06 (Tom Farin) 8. 07:49 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Christopher Smith) 9. 07:49 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Christopher Smith) 10. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 08:50 AM - Re: Flanging tool advice (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 12. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Craig Payne) 13. 09:01 AM - Foxcon - Subaru 4 coil ignition (John Hines) 14. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 15. 09:25 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Robin Bellach) 16. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 17. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 18. 09:42 AM - Re: Foxcon - Subaru 4 coil ignition (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 19. 10:15 AM - Re: Here it is (Roger Venables) 20. 11:16 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (James Ferris) 21. 11:16 AM - Re: Corvair Conversions (James Ferris) 22. 11:18 AM - Re: Flanging tool advice () 23. 12:03 PM - Re: Flanging tool advice () 24. 12:06 PM - don't archive!!! (Zed Smith) 25. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine () 26. 12:15 PM - Re: don't archive!!! () 27. 12:20 PM - Re: don't archive!!! (John Hines) 28. 12:25 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (John Hines) 29. 12:41 PM - Green pads.... (Zed Smith) 30. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Edward Moody II) 31. 12:51 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 32. 01:18 PM - Slow day (Zed Smith) 33. 01:19 PM - Corvair cranks (Randy Stout) 34. 01:27 PM - Corvair Forums and Info (Phil Maxson) 35. 01:29 PM - Re: Corvair cranks (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 36. 01:50 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Phil Maxson) 37. 01:56 PM - Wing Building (AZFlyer) 38. 02:16 PM - Oh my gawd, we're all goin' die! (Jeff Small) 39. 02:20 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Gary Boothe) 40. 02:27 PM - Re: Wing Building (Paul Mulwitz) 41. 02:28 PM - Re: Wing Building (Jaybannist@cs.com) 42. 02:39 PM - Re: Wing Building (Robin Bellach) 43. 02:42 PM - Re: Corvair Conversions (Robin Bellach) 44. 05:17 PM - weight of engines? (Hudsonmusic1@aol.com) 45. 06:16 PM - Re: Corvair cranks (Randy Bryant) 46. 06:23 PM - Re: Slow day (Edward Moody II) 47. 06:28 PM - Re: don't archive!!! (Tommy Walker) 48. 06:34 PM - Re: Wing Building (Edward Moody II) 49. 07:06 PM - Re: Corvair cranks (Phil Maxson) 50. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Jean-Paul Roy) 51. 07:23 PM - Re: Wing Building (Jaybannist@cs.com) 52. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Jean-Paul Roy) 53. 07:41 PM - Getting started on CH601XL (Wade Jones) 54. 08:00 PM - Re: weight of engines? (Paul Mulwitz) 55. 08:04 PM - Re: Wing Building (Paul Mulwitz) 56. 08:34 PM - Seeking O-200 oil tank (Randy L. Thwing) 57. 09:07 PM - Re: Corvair cranks (kevinbonds) 58. 09:44 PM - Re: Seeking O-200 oil tank (Thesumak@aol.com) 59. 10:02 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Afterfxllc@AOL.COM) 60. 10:06 PM - Can we just lighten up? (Richard Vetterli) 61. 10:29 PM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Randy Bryant) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:29 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Paul I suspect that some are like me. We are in the middle of building some other part of our plane--and our mental efforts are taken up by it. Not that we are necessarily unable to discuss technically, but that we would need to go back and reference various materials, and such, to give qualified information that is not based on spotty memory. I have read and re-read my plans and manuals so many times but still wouldn't think of trying to do anything strictly from memory. I haven't even looked at my engine this year. I have rebuilt a Lyc 0-320 in class; taken, Applied Calculus, Philosophy, Sociology, and Plane Trigonometry, and built half my fuse since the last time I even opened WW's manual. Heck After reading about a million posts I'm not even sure what your original post was. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that it is 2:00am as well. I probably should make a rule to not type after 1:00 for fear that it is all gobbledigoop. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:42 AM PST US From: "Frank Roskind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" I thnk the reason that the Corvair engine gets so much attention is that it is a unique conversion. The VW is similar but has much less power, and from what I understand about most VW conversions, the typical aircraft conversion gets its power off the end opposite that used to get power in a car. The Corvair engine is air-cooled, and direct drive, both of which bring welcome simplicity to a project. I have nothing against any gizmo, but if it isn't on the plane it can't break. The competing engines to a Corvair are the Rotax, Jabiru, and some older Lycomings or Continentals which are hard to find. In general they cost more. I know there are other conversions out there, including Subaru and Geo, but the bottom line is that those conversions are extremely complex processes, and require at a minimum gear boxes and liquid cooling systems. It is no surprise then that the Corvair conversion gets a lot of attention. Further, the conversion that gets so much attention is the William Wynne conversion. His discussions make a fair amount of sense. He posts what I think are open, relatively unbiased discussions on his website. Certainly Zenith is interested in his work, and posts a link from their website. OTOH, there are drawbacks to the Corvair conversion, some of which you have highlighted. If there were no drawbacks there would be no reason to discuss the engine. If there were no advantages there would be no reason to discuss the engine. We have a lot of discussion, and I think the implication is very clear. Corvair engines have a lot of advantages and drawbacks. As to single point failures, there are two issues- first can a single point failure turn your airplane into a glider, and second, is the failure graceful, or sudden. All piston engines can fail due to a crankshaft failure or a fuel line failure, both of which are single point, and which are common modes to all of the engines suggested for Zeniths. Ignition system failures with conventional point ignition as suggested by Mr. Wynne are comparitively rare, and failures without warning are extremely rare. Dual ignition systems are also subject to extremely rare event single point failures as well. I don't think these failures are as likely to occur ass some of the other failures, such as fuel system or crankshaft. It is easier to reduce the risk of an engine failure by addressing the fuel system and crank than it is to reduce the risk by focuing on the ignition system. I would suggest that the bigger issue is crankshaft failure, and the relalted issue of correctly matching the propellor to the engine. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz 4. As to the question about why the Corvair gets so much attention on this list while the other auto conversions get nary a peep, I think it is the way the Corvair advocates make every comment a personal insult that leads to so much hot air. If only the technical issues were discussed as such I think we would all be happier. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:58 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Zenith-List: Engine Failures. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Frank, I agree with you. Sometimes when I get bored I read accident reports on the NTSB web site. I usually limit my choice of accidents to home built aircraft, but in discussions with experienced pilots I have been led to believe that the phenomenon of engine failure is certainly not limited to home built planes. My informal conclusions agree completely with your comments about fuel systems and crank shaft failures - particularly the fuel systems. I don't think crank failures are as frequent as fuel system failures, but they get lots of press because of ADs and other publicity. There are endless examples of fuel system failures which seem to include clogged filters and fuel starvation from other causes. I suppose the most popular reason for fuel starvation is the pilot flew farther than the fuel allowed, but that is probably the most prevalent form of engine failure. On the crank failure issue, I am reminded of a lesson from my favorite flight instructor. He taught me that nearly all mechanical failures in engines occur when the pilot makes changes to the engine controls. I believe it is good practice to leave the engine controls alone while close to the ground, and to make gentle smooth movements on the controls. This may or may not save me from unpleasant forced landings, but I have been lucky so far. Another surprise for me was the fact that new engines are more likely to experience catastrophic failures than older engines. Older engines may burn a lot of oil but they are generally smooth in operation. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >It is easier to reduce the risk of an engine failure by addressing >the fuel system and crank than it is to reduce the risk by focuing >on the ignition system. I would suggest that the bigger issue is >crankshaft failure, and the relalted issue of correctly matching the >propellor to the engine. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:03 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Here it is --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Mike- I said up front that the article would be as anonymous as possible. The whole world would know exactly what list I belonged to if I mentioned green Scotchbrite!! Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:16 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: mike sinclair > > I was kinda disappointed, wasn't a single mention about the miracle of > Green Scotchbrite! > > Do Not Archive > >> Bill Naumuk wrote: >> >> All- Draft article >> attached. >> Bill do not archive >> > JULY 5, 2006 > EAA- > Please consider the following draft article for > publication > in an upcoming SA edition: > > "Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are > no > exception. Divide the world's > population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find that > there aren't that many "Birds" > available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when > the > Wright brothers had to wait > months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet > builder's group, you can correspond > instantaneously with other "Birds" building something > similar to your project. > Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. > Things > went acceptably well, so I > maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With all > the > confidence of the > hopelessly nave, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build > myself > (Or more accurately, > mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and > tried > to sell the project. > Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's > site to builders who were flying > and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral > support, I was able to rebuild > myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project > and > eventually recommended > that I join the international > builder's list. > After participating on the builder's list for over a year > I > realized that I wasn't the only > one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought it > was > important that SA readers > be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my > belief and responded to a > questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What follows > is a > compilation of their responses: > The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading > the > posts of others you can get > a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished > product. Forewarned of recurring > problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of > finished product limitations, > you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and > expectations before it's too late. > 75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an > average of 2 months after they > had purchased their kit or > plans. > Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major > reason > given for joining a list, even > though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is > the > fact that the internet is acting > as an alternative to face-to-face > interaction. > Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. > Some > listers are more comfortable > remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the fray. > Yes, > fray. Don't forget, you're > dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and > sisters, > and I guarantee you at > times you'll fight like > siblings! > When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for > technical or social reasons" > the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted > macho > response, because > when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted > that > once friendships had been > established, social communication was an added > bonus. > Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of > technical advice. The common > response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely > slow > in coming. As an > alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list > recommendations with EAA > Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the > first to > respond, with a factory > blessing weeks or even months later. > Just about every respondent encountered a major problem > while > building. There > were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans, instructions, > interpretation of the instructions, > or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been > avoided > by posting a question or > researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet > the > manufacturer's projected > build time. > Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a > major > problem, with the average > builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more background > in > psychology than me will > have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a > builder's mind to be able to come up > with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open > for > everyone to offer moral and/or > technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the > ensuing interchange will become > a permanent part of the archives to help > builders in the future. > Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list > membership was beneficial, > and recommending membership to new > builders. > Good building! > William J. Naumuk EAA# > 336752 > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great >> rates starting at 1/min. > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:47 AM PST US From: "Frank Roskind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" I read a lot of accident reports. I have not done any stats, but it seems to me that the first major cause of experimental aircraft power failures is failure of the fuel delivery system (tanks, no fuel, contamination, lines, pumps etc.), which does not appear to be affected by choice of engine. Other prominent causes are lubrication failures, misassembly, overheating, and crankshaft failures related to poor coordination of propeller and engine. Th last seems to be a big deal for Corvair engines, but that may be because someone has focused attention on the issue. On the flycorvair website there is an extensive discussion of the crankshaft issue. OTOH, I went to a session last year at Oshkosh where the subject was matching prop to engine, and the focus was on certified engines on experimental aircraft. On certified engines the failure mode was often a broken propellor caused by harmonics, which is much more serious than a crankshaft failure because the engine often departs the airframe. The simple answer was to select a propeller engine combination that was working on a certified airplane and adhere to any rpm restrictions, with the alternative answer to use a wooden prop, because harmonics are not as big an issue with wood, which damps vibrations. At the Corvair sessions at Oshkosh, William Wynne was careful to urge weight and extension limitations for props. That seemed like sound advice. I haven't read many reports of in-flight ignition system failures. I would focus on geting the fuel system right , building the engine right, and getting the right prop. It wouldn't hurt to check the fuel on preflight either. I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:15 AM PST US From: "2thesky" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "2thesky" Well, since I haven't even decided on how I want to build my shop, much less which of the few "finalists" I intend to build, an engine choice seems way down the road for me. One thing that I can say about the Zodie XL Corvair is that I LOVE the cowling on the engine. It is, in my opinion, one of, if not, the best looking nose on a plane that I have seen in a long time! I wonder if that engine cowl could be used with some of the other engines? Do not archive -------- Every takeoff is optional, but every landing is mandatory! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45446#45446 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:28 AM PST US From: "Tom Farin" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06 Let me respond to the Corvair discussion. First, the passionate and dogmatic response. There was a similar discussion that occurred yesterday on the C601XL list on Yahoo yesterday. The subject was engine choices. One member suggested the Corvair. He was immediately attacked by another on the list for his choice. So it works both ways. The best place to post questions relating to Corvair engine conversions is the Corvaircraft site. As pointed out earlier, it is a very active group of folks working on Corvair conversions. http://www.corvaircraft.com/ I find the discussions to be open and occasionally a bit heated. The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the Corvair engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in 1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at Corvaircraft, on William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site. Mark had one of the four failures. The consensus seems to be that in all four cases the installation deviated from the instructions in Wynne's manual - prop extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way that placed additional stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark and William put substantial time into examining the causes of the failures. In spite of the fact there are no known crank failures on installations per the WW manual, WW is now recommending the crank be Nitrided to give it additional strength. In spite of a harrowing experience, Mark is again flying with a stock WW conversion. The reason I wrote the last paragraph, is I wanted to respond to the comment that Corvair builders may not be properly doing the due dilligance before making the choice. I'd respond by saying the average Corvair builder puts a lot more time into due dilligance than those choosing Jabiru, O-200, or Rotax installs. And they should. After all, the Corvair engine wasn't designed originally as an aviation engine. I certainly have. I've read virtually every post on the CorvairCraft site in the last two years, read all the information on the WW site, own and have read the WW manual, own and have browsed the GM Corvair shop manual and have read most of the engine parts of the Finch book, "How to Keep Your Corvair Alive". As for the ignition system, I have yet to see a post relating to a Corvair ignition system failure. Yes, a full dual system would be nice, but that's far from my biggest concern about a Corvair engine install. In my own case, I went up in a Zodiac XL at the EAA SP tour in Romeoville a few weeks ago and will be building an XL. I'm still keeping my options open on the engine. But this weekend, I'm going to drop $250 to pick up a Corvair engine along with some rebuilder parts. It's a cheap decision. But when I'm in Oshkosh the end of the month I'll be asking lots of questions. I always have the option to change my mind later. Keep in mind one other thing. The majority of Corvair engine owners rebuild their own engines. That cuts them from a somewhat different cloth than the majority of Zodiac builders. I'm not saying they are better, smarter, or more stupid - just different. When the project is complete, most know a lot more about the engine they are flying than the majority of Rotax, Continental, or Jabiru owners. Frankly, the thought of building my own engine appeals to me. I was one of the combatants in the discussion on the other list yesterday. When you put as much time into research as I have and someone who clearly hasn't done his attacks your choice, you do tend to respond emotionally. Tom ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:35 AM PST US From: "Christopher Smith" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions Gary & Randy, I would like to point out that I just wanted info on the corvair. Please read the posts & you will see that. I said some things wrong that made it sound as if I was lumping all corvair builders into the same group. For tha t I am sorry (Think I have said I'm Sorry more in the last day than the last 10 years). But please take time to understand that some of you take criticism to questions of reliability. I will say this only once......To walk info anything in aviation blind could cost you your life. That does no t mean that just because the batt might quit and take the engine with it is better or worse than engine x y or z. But if I choose the corvair not carin g what makes it differ from any other engine, Then I am a bad builder, a bad pilot. Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics o f engine? I think not. Someone took the time to answer your questions. Now is the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choice. Thank you. On 7/6/06, Randy Bryant wrote: > > I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question > crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every time you > mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out you a re > using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh... > > OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic flight a t > Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable for flight? > I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in 1903, one of the > biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough power and still light > enough for flight... They used what they had, what they could make and w hat > they could find or invent. At some point between then and now, someone h as > taken or was given the authority to say what's "certified" and what's > not... That being said, the word "certified" is still someone's opinion. > They can say one engine is certified and one is not... > > If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying Machine > Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but certified by > whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean that all the > other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone else builds/copie s > of my original design, that accomplishes the same work as mine, at half > the cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I could say that and tell the > world that, but would it be correct..? No, just an opinion...mine. > > Along the same thought of: > The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no > rules, no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made > rules, set up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to gover n > the activity they introduced to the world and anyone, who from then till > today, that plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew... Something > wrong with that picture... Who gave the "authorities" the authority??? > > Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are: > 1. I'll be there on Friday. > 2. The check is in the mail. > 3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you. > > Bottom line is: > We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own efforts. > I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because you choose to > do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you work and efforts are > fruitless and void... You have to do it to a degree that is pleases you. > Keep in mind what the role of the part is, that's in question, and build the > part to accomplish its designated role... Heck, I've seen pictures of pa rts > built for homebuilts, even Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet on my wheel barrow a nd > trust... but the guy that built it, built it for himself, to suit himsel f, > to accomplish the task he planned for it to do...and that's good enough f or > me. > > > Randy > XL Wings - Plans Only > http://www.n344rb.com > Do Not Archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Gary Boothe > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions > > Chris, Paul, > > > I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe ' No, > actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and t hey > have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today!!! > > > So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of > experimental aviation that truly inspires me! > > > My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and the > 601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought > processes before making any opinion about the Corvair ' or don't. > > > Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your questions > answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net > > > Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and fl y > is your own business. > > > Gary Boothe > > Cool, CA > > 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion > > Tail done, working on wings.... > > -- Christopher W. E. Smith fly1m1 http://ch-601xl.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:35 AM PST US From: "Christopher Smith" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions "Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics of engine? I think not." should be "Did anyone on this list choose the corvair without knowing the basics of engine? On 7/7/06, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Gary & Randy, > I would like to point out that I just wanted info on the corvair. Please > read the posts & you will see that. I said some things wrong that made it > sound as if I was lumping all corvair builders into the same group. For t hat > I am sorry (Think I have said I'm Sorry more in the last day than the las t > 10 years). But please take time to understand that some of you take > criticism to questions of reliability. I will say this only once......To > walk info anything in aviation blind could cost you your life. That does not > mean that just because the batt might quit and take the engine with it is > better or worse than engine x y or z. But if I choose the corvair not car ing > what makes it differ from any other engine, Then I am a bad builder, a ba d > pilot. Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics of > engine? I think not. Someone took the time to answer your questions. Now is > the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair doe s > not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choic e. > Thank you. > > > On 7/6/06, Randy Bryant wrote: > > > > I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question > > crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every tim e you > > mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out you are > > using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh... > > > > OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic flight > > at Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable for fli ght? > > I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in 1903, one o f the > > biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough power and still lig ht > > enough for flight... They used what they had, what they could make and what > > they could find or invent. At some point between then and now, someone has > > taken or was given the authority to say what's "certified" and what's > > not... That being said, the word "certified" is still someone's opinio n. > > They can say one engine is certified and one is not... > > > > If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying Machine > > Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but certified by > > whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean that all th e > > other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone else builds/cop ies > > of my original design, that accomplishes the same work as mine, at half > > the cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I could say that and tel l the > > world that, but would it be correct..? No, just an opinion...mine. > > > > Along the same thought of: > > The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no > > rules, no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made > > rules, set up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to gov ern > > the activity they introduced to the world and anyone, who from then til l > > today, that plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew... Something > > wrong with that picture... Who gave the "authorities" the authority??? > > > > Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are: > > 1. I'll be there on Friday. > > 2. The check is in the mail. > > 3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you. > > > > Bottom line is: > > We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own > > efforts. I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because you > > choose to do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you work and > > efforts are fruitless and void... You have to do it to a degree that i s > > pleases you. Keep in mind what the role of the part is, that's in ques tion, > > and build the part to accomplish its designated role... Heck, I've see n > > pictures of parts built for homebuilts, even Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet on my > > wheel barrow and trust... but the guy that built it, built it for hims elf, > > to suit himself, to accomplish the task he planned for it to do...and t hat's > > good enough for me. > > > > > > Randy > > XL Wings - Plans Only > > http://www.n344rb.com > > Do Not Archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Gary Boothe > > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM > > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions > > > > Chris, Paul, > > > > > > > > I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe ' No, > > actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and they > > have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today! !! > > > > > > > > So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of > > experimental aviation that truly inspires me! > > > > > > > > My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and th e > > 601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought > > processes before making any opinion about the Corvair ' or don't. > > > > > > > > Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your > > questions answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net > > > > > > > > Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and > > fly is your own business. > > > > > > > > Gary Boothe > > > > Cool, CA > > > > 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion > > > > Tail done, working on wings.... > > > > > > > > > -- > Christopher W. E. Smith > fly1m1 > http://ch-601xl.com > -- Christopher W. E. Smith fly1m1 http://ch-601xl.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:31 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" And what happens if that changeover switch fails? Frank HDS soob 400 hours with individual on-off switches for each critical system -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hines Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 4:47 PM Chris, The duplicate systems on the WW ignition system are the points, coils, capacitors and resistors. According to WW these are the systems that are affected by heat, "the primary killer of ignition systems." The non-redundant systems are the plugs, wires, and cap. Another difference between the WW system and mag systems is that you only run one at a time. If one system malfunctions you simply flip a switch to engage the second system. This was a big topic of discussion at Corvair day at the Mexico factory. Since the conversion manual is WW's lively hood, I probably should copy the entire details of the ignition system onto a web forum. I really encourage you to get the conversion manual. I was surprised that the first chapter is mainly his philosophy on risk management. It is a great read whether you build a Corvair or not. Contact me off the list if you would like to continue this discussion. Thanks, John www.johnsplane.com ________________________________ Smith Sent: Thu 7/6/2006 6:13 PM Thank you. I have read alot on the corvair website by WW. I will have to check out CorvAircraft's website for it is new to me. I was just asking about info I could not find on the corvair site. But trust me, I have learned my lesson, & will save Corvair questions for my own site. Thank you again for your help. On 7/6/06, Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote: If you don't find enough information at FlyCorvair.Com, check out the CorvairCraft list: search the CorvAircraft archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp Other CorvAircraft list info is at http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Smith To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine "this corvair stuff is just dumb" meant the Back and forth about it...Not that the corvair in dumb..."Corvair people come off as rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" Is true. Read phil's post. If I wanted to knock the corvair, I would do so on my website. But I don't, in fact I have a link to the corvair website. If I felt the engine was bad I would not link to it. I see now that the corvair folks are not willing to help me understand the engine I have an interest in. When that happens, I look elsewhere. I will from now on post questions to my website about the corvair to keep the list clear. Anyone wanting to help me with corvair can post a comment on the site. Sorry for getting this started, I thought that I could get help here. -- Christopher W. E. Smith fly1m1 http://ch-601xl.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:27 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging tool advice Ed, great to hear from you. On the edging tool. Is your purpose to put a lip around the skin edge to help make a tighter seal when riveting overlapping skins ? If so, it may be a reasonable idea with some merit. On the other hand, I saw a XL a couple months ago, beautiful plane with excellent workmanship ( better than mine) with these bent edges. Frankly, they detracted from the overall appearance and finish. Maybe more of a taste thing ?? The other point you might consider is if your metal is right and the rivet lines are straight and properly spaced from the edge you should achieve a flat tight lap joint. Just my two cents worth. Have you had a chance to see a XL with these surfaces so bent ? You might agree. Best to you. I hope to fly somewhere this weekend, Bill of Georgia do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:42 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" >> And what happens if that changeover switch fails? Roughly the same thing that happens if your mag switch fails. But not exactly - as I understand it a mag switch grounds a lead to turn off a mag. IMHO it is less likely that a switch fail and unintentionally grounds a wire than a switch failing open. So slight edge to a system with a conventional mag switch. Anyway there is an easy fix - use two SPST switches instead of a SPDT one. Each half of the system gets its own switch. Although William doesn't recommended it there is also nothing that keeps you from running both halves of the system at the same time. Bottom line is that any aircraft has potential single points of failure. The question is what is likely to fail. For example it is possible to add another plug to the Corvair heads (it has been done). But in the opinion of some it adds more risk than it removes. It forces you to remove some critical cooling fins and alters the geometry of the chamber. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:44 AM PST US From: "John Hines" Subject: Zenith-List: Foxcon - Subaru 4 coil ignition --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" Since we are talking about auto conversions... There is an Australian company called Foxcon that has a Subaru conversion with a four coil ignition system. I was wondering if anyone on this list has heard anything about it. Their website is www.foxcon.com and here is what they say about it: Foxcon Aviation & Research Pty Ltd is proud to introduce the latest safety feature: an Independent Ignition System that eliminates the risk of forced landings due to alternator failures. Modified car engines for ultralight aircraft e.g. the Subaru EA 81 commonly operate on single ignition. There are often discussions whether they should have dual ignition like certified engines for additional safety and better combustion. Foxcon Aviation has developed an independent ignition system for each cylinder: should one system fail, the engine will continue operating on the remaining cylinders. The Foxcon independent ignition system has a modified distributor rotor and cap. There are four independent ignition coils, one for each cylinder. The power consumption is only about 10 % of a conventional system with points, hence in the case of an alternator failure, the battery will power the engine for hours. Additionally, because of the reduced power consumption, the coils operate at a lower temperature, which enhances reliability. The only features common within the system are the power supply and the distributor. John R. Hines IT Manager Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 Rogers, AR 72756 Office: 479-878-2449 Mobile: 479-366-4783 Fax: 479-631-6224 John.Hines@craftontull.com www.craftontull.com Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:22 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine I guess you would point it to the ground and hope you had a heart attack before you got there........... I have been reading these posts for way to long about this subject. I don't care what power plant you are using you WILL have a failure at some point. With that said I would worry a lot more about some dumb thing you had done that causes you problems rather than worrying about a redundant system failing. I am going corvair but I have my concerns about the ignition system so I am going to take extra care when wiring it so I don't think about it every time I go flying (What's the fun in that)? One point no one has brought up is on a corvair you have duel points and duel coils, etc., etc., but what if the distributor shaft itself breaks? I think we understand the dangers in our choices but a lycoming breaks just as anything else would, so I figure as long as the engine stays whole and I don't panic I can get her down safely. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:48 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions Having built my Wynne-Vair 2900 with the generous assistance and guidance of the WW crew, the satisfaction of completing it and the knowledge and understanding of it is such that I would not trade it for a brand new Jab. I expect to fly behind it in more comfort than I would any new engine I could have purchased. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Smith To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions ...Now is the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choice. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:05 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Bingo! Electrical systems do fail...and quite often. This is why on the Soobs we all (well most of us) do not interconnect the two electrical systems save for the diode that seperates the two batteries. That way a single alternator can charge both the batteries but each battery has a fuel pump and an ignition system all to itself. When you uses individual SPST switches this effectively isolates electrical single points of failure. On the Soob dual ign setup the HT leads comes out of each coil and goes thru the MSD coil joiner (basically two high voltage diodes) and to the distributor. These have a zero failure rate as far as anyone knows. You correct in that the Mag "changeover" switch works the other way round...I still don't like it and on the RV I have individual switches for this as well. But the idea is the lead can go open circuit and the engine will continue to run....But why risk a short to ground if you don't have to. Anecdotal reliability info says that ignitor chips (electronic ignition), coils and switches are items that fail more often than mechanical components so avoiding single points of failure is highly desirable. Frank HDS Soob 400 hours RV7a...paint -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:55 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" --> >> And what happens if that changeover switch fails? Roughly the same thing that happens if your mag switch fails. But not exactly - as I understand it a mag switch grounds a lead to turn off a mag. IMHO it is less likely that a switch fail and unintentionally grounds a wire than a switch failing open. So slight edge to a system with a conventional mag switch. Anyway there is an easy fix - use two SPST switches instead of a SPDT one. Each half of the system gets its own switch. Although William doesn't recommended it there is also nothing that keeps you from running both halves of the system at the same time. Bottom line is that any aircraft has potential single points of failure. The question is what is likely to fail. For example it is possible to add another plug to the Corvair heads (it has been done). But in the opinion of some it adds more risk than it removes. It forces you to remove some critical cooling fins and alters the geometry of the chamber. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:33 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine Yup...Minimise the risks, make sure you got hull insurance and pray you get to cash the check! Frank HDS soob..>Well not really I sold it ________________________________ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:06 AM I guess you would point it to the ground and hope you had a heart attack before you got there........... I have been reading these posts for way to long about this subject. I don't care what power plant you are using you WILL have a failure at some point. With that said I would worry a lot more about some dumb thing you had done that causes you problems rather than worrying about a redundant system failing. I am going corvair but I have my concerns about the ignition system so I am going to take extra care when wiring it so I don't think about it every time I go flying (What's the fun in that)? One point no one has brought up is on a corvair you have duel points and duel coils, etc., etc., but what if the distributor shaft itself breaks? I think we understand the dangers in our choices but a lycoming breaks just as anything else would, so I figure as long as the engine stays whole and I don't panic I can get her down safely. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:58 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Foxcon - Subaru 4 coil ignition --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hmm...What they forget to mention I the standard Subaru ignitor chip is so feeble (and cost $300 if your ever foolish enough to go buy one) it should go straight in the trash before ever seeing your airplane..:) This sounds similar to to what Ram performance is using, but I know very little about it. Frank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" --> Since we are talking about auto conversions... There is an Australian company called Foxcon that has a Subaru conversion with a four coil ignition system. I was wondering if anyone on this list has heard anything about it. Their website is www.foxcon.com and here is what they say about it: ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:24 AM PST US From: "Roger Venables" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Here it is Bill Excellent article! It sums up everything very well. I particularly liked your comment on posting helping to clear the mind Roger Venables CH701 _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:57 AM All- Draft article attached. Bill do not archive JULY 5, 2006 EAA- Please consider the following draft article for publication in an upcoming SA edition: "Birds of a feather flock together" and homebuilders are no exception. Divide the world's population by the number of active homebuilders and you'll find that there aren't that many "Birds" available to flock with. Of course, it isn't as bad as it was when the Wright brothers had to wait months for a letter from Octave Chanute. Thanks to the internet builder's group, you can correspond instantaneously with other "Birds" building something similar to your project. Like most homebuilders, I started with a rudder kit. Things went acceptably well, so I maxed out my credit card and ordered the whole nine yards. With all the confidence of the hopelessly na=EFve, I forged ahead on my own and managed to build myself (Or more accurately, mis-build myself) into a corner in 4 months. Depressed, I quit and tried to sell the project. Months later, I discovered links on my kit manufacturer's site to builders who were flying and struck up a dialog with one. Thanks to his technical and moral support, I was able to rebuild myself out of the hole in 1-1/2 years. He literally saved my project and eventually recommended that I join the international builder's list. After participating on the builder's list for over a year I realized that I wasn't the only one who had their project saved by internet buddies, and thought it was important that SA readers be made aware of this powerful tool. 25 members shared my belief and responded to a questionnaire covering aspects of "Life on the list". What follows is a compilation of their responses: The earlier you're a list member, the better. By reading the posts of others you can get a feel for recurring problems and the limitations of the finished product. Forewarned of recurring problems, you have a good chance of avoiding them yourself. Aware of finished product limitations, you can opt out for a design more compatable with your needs and expectations before it's too late. 75% of the respondents were unaware of the builder's list until an average of 2 months after they had purchased their kit or plans. Surprisingly, lack of local builders wasn't the major reason given for joining a list, even though listers live an average of 2 hours apart. Not surprising is the fact that the internet is acting as an alternative to face-to-face interaction. Active participation (Posting) is a 50/50 proposition. Some listers are more comfortable remaining in the background, and others prefer to join in the fray. Yes, fray. Don't forget, you're dealing with people who are in a sense as close as brothers and sisters, and I guarantee you at times you'll fight like siblings! When asked the direct question, "Do you post primarily for technical or social reasons" the answer was overwhelmingly technical. This must be the accepted macho response, because when phrased differently later in the questionnaire, most admitted that once friendships had been established, social communication was an added bonus. Listers were split when it came to the usefullness of technical advice. The common response was that factory support was the last word, but extremely slow in coming. As an alternative, many listers would simultaneously cross check list recommendations with EAA Techical and the factory. EAA Technical would invariably be the first to respond, with a factory blessing weeks or even months later. Just about every respondent encountered a major problem while building. There were three attributable reasons given: 1. Poor plans, instructions, interpretation of the instructions, or plan/instruction sequencing. 2. Mistakes that could have been avoided by posting a question or researching list archives before cutting metal. 3. Rushing to meet the manufacturer's projected build time. Depression was overwhelmingly the initial reaction to a major problem, with the average builder recovering within a day. Someone with a lot more background in psychology than me will have to prove it, but I contend that posting a problem clears a builder's mind to be able to come up with a solution. At the same time, the problem is out in the open for everyone to offer moral and/or technical support, and a warning to other builders. Eventually, the ensuing interchange will become a permanent part of the archives to help builders in the future. Finally, respondents were unanimous in affirming that list membership was beneficial, and recommending membership to new builders. Good building! William J. Naumuk EAA# 336752 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:04 AM PST US From: James Ferris Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris I think you made a good choise because this engine had more research and developement than all of the Lyc. and Cont. put together and is only going to be runing at 50 to 60 percent power and with the crankshaft problem behind us it will have fewer failures than the others n the next few years including the Jab. Jim --- Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote: > Having built my Wynne-Vair 2900 with the generous > assistance and guidance of the WW crew, the > satisfaction of completing it and the knowledge and > understanding of it is such that I would not trade > it for a brand new Jab. I expect to fly behind it in > more comfort than I would any new engine I could > have purchased. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Smith > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:44 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions > > > ...Now is the time to promote your engine of > choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need > defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will > have no choice. Thank you. > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:04 AM PST US From: James Ferris Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris I think you made a good choise because this engine had more research and developement than all of the Lyc. and Cont. put together and is only going to be runing at 50 to 60 percent power and with the crankshaft problem behind us it will have fewer failures than the others n the next few years including the Jab. Jim --- Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> wrote: > Having built my Wynne-Vair 2900 with the generous > assistance and guidance of the WW crew, the > satisfaction of completing it and the knowledge and > understanding of it is such that I would not trade > it for a brand new Jab. I expect to fly behind it in > more comfort than I would any new engine I could > have purchased. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Smith > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:44 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions > > > ...Now is the time to promote your engine of > choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need > defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will > have no choice. Thank you. > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:50 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging tool advice --> Zenith-List message posted by: The roller tool does not produce a nice result in my hands. Some other guys have said that is the usual result, so I guess it will look good on the wall of the shop from here on out. I thought about using a thin kerf saw blade to cut a slot along the edge of a one by four just to put the least bit of "down"on the edge before rivetting. I definitely agree that if you bend the edge enough to see it after rivetting, it would be better not to do it at all. Today, while waitng for an xray on a root canal, it came to me to try using the band saw to cut a J - shaped slot into the end of a board. It may take some experimentation with scraps but if the J is the right size and shape I could slide it onto the edge of the skin until it bottoms out, then slide it along the edge from one end to the other, hopefully leaving a gentle curl to the edge that will flatten out when the clecos and rivets pull it down. If I get the idea to work, I'll send you and the list a photo. Might turn out to be a brain fart or a really good innovation, who knows? Thanks for chiming in, Ed ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:18 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging tool advice --> Zenith-List message posted by: Thanks Bill, I'm working on a similar idea that came to me at the office today and if it works, I'll post the results. Ed ---- Bill Naumuk wrote: > Ed- > Jeff Small went the other route with a bender that was only about 1/2" wide, if that. I remember him saying that he made it out of a really hard wood like walnut or rosewood and had to cut the kerf with a jeweler's saw. > I was too impatient to use his technique and since I did it the way you were going to try will have to roll out some high spots. It works, but I'll wind up with a net loss timewise. > You might check in the archives for Jeff's tool. I used to have a picture but had a hard drive crash last year that probably wiped everything out. > Bill > do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:00 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: don't archive!!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its Friday, the Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours, the next weekend is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a root canal. Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant! Zed/701/R912/took 13 hours but we hung the wings/do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:11 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender? Ed Moody II Do Not Archive ---- Christopher Smith wrote: > I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be one > soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding on > what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people on > this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I will ask > lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank you for > the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your words on > the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way! ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:33 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: don't archive!!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Not when I do them! You just need a nicer dentist. Ed PS: What? No bite on the guitar controversy? I am depressed. ---- Zed Smith wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith > > A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its Friday, the Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours, the next weekend is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a root canal. > > Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant! ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:26 PM PST US From: "John Hines" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: don't archive!!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" Can you use green scotchbrite pads on a Corvair? John R. Hines IT Manager Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 Rogers, AR 72756 Office: 479-878-2449 Mobile: 479-366-4783 Fax: 479-631-6224 John.Hines@craftontull.com www.craftontull.com Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zed Smith Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:06 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its Friday, the Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours, the next weekend is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a root canal. Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant! Zed/701/R912/took 13 hours but we hung the wings/do not archive This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:34 PM PST US From: "John Hines" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" Gibson vs. Fender? What about Kramer, hammer, Ibanez, G&L, Peavey, & Yamaha? Are you questioning my choice of playing a Peavey? You must be an elitist guitar snob!! LOL - Sorry, I couldn't resist! DO NOT ARCHIVE John R. Hines IT Manager Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 Rogers, AR 72756 Office: 479-878-2449 Mobile: 479-366-4783 Fax: 479-631-6224 John.Hines@craftontull.com www.craftontull.com Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dredmoody@cox.net Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:13 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender? Ed Moody II Do Not Archive ---- Christopher Smith wrote: > I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be one > soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding on > what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people on > this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I will ask > lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank you for > the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your words on > the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way! This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:36 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Green pads.... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith No, John.....the green Scotchbrite pads are most useful to polish all those BBs there in Daisy-Land. Now you explain to the audience about the secrets of living next door to a weapons manufacturer. Regards, Zed do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:38 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Ah!!! Now that's the list I know. Let the urination commence! Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:24 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > > Gibson vs. Fender? What about Kramer, hammer, Ibanez, G&L, Peavey, & > Yamaha? Are you questioning my choice of playing a Peavey? You must be > an elitist guitar snob!! LOL - Sorry, I couldn't resist! > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > John R. Hines > IT Manager > Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. > 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > Office: 479-878-2449 > Mobile: 479-366-4783 > Fax: 479-631-6224 > John.Hines@craftontull.com > www.craftontull.com > > Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the > needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions. > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > dredmoody@cox.net > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:13 PM > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender? > > Ed Moody II > > Do Not Archive > > ---- Christopher Smith wrote: >> I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be > one >> soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding > on >> what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people > on >> this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I > will ask >> lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank > you for >> the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your > words on >> the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way! > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. > If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. > This message contains confidential information and is intended only for > the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not > disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender > immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and > delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient > you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any > action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly > prohibited. > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:02 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions Way to go!!! Make a Decision and Stick to your guns !! We all Recognize and Applaud Courage of Conviction. BRAVO !! do not archive ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:32 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Slow day --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith Some poor guy is racked up in Ed's chair, got half a bale of cotton stuffed into his cheeks, enough pain killer that he can't feel his elbows, his has squeezed the chair arms until his knuckles are white (and bleeding), there are hoses, clamps and thing-a-dooeys hanging from his numb lips, the assortment of "tools" on the tray looks like Diesel Mechanics 101, and Ed is playing on the Internet. Do you use an A4 or A5 to seal a root canal? do not archive or drill Zed ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:55 PM PST US From: "Randy Stout" Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair cranks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" William Wynne's own crank had stress fractures in it. This was a standard conversion. I'm sure that's what convinced him to recommend nitriding the cranks. I did not have a prop extension, or horsepower upgrade and yet my crank broke. My crank had not been nitrided either, but then I had never heard of a crank failure on a Corvair until about a year or so ago. I figured since they have been flying Corvairs on Peitenpols since the 60's, I didn't see any rush. Since my crank break, I have come to realize that we have been flying these engines much harder than the Pietenpol guys do. Possible reasons for my crank break: Case being "sloppy". I wish I had the measuring equipment to verify this one way or another. Prop out of balance. Maybe. I know I'm going to get it dynamically balanced when I get it flying again. Max performance takeoffs. Nearly every flight began that way. Cruising at 3100 rpm or higher. I almost always pushed the engine hard. I think WW usually cruises at 2900 rpm. I'm not completely convinced about the nitriding, because it is a hardening process. If one where to pose the question of whether or not to substitute grade 8 bolts for AN bolts, the argument would normally be that grade 8 have been hardened and are more brittle than an AN bolt . It would not be able to take the bending moment that an AN bolt could. For some reason it must be different on a crankshaft, but I don't understand why. However, since the experts have determined that nitriding is the way to go, I will follow. Something we all need to do regardless of the engine we fly behind: When you hear of a crash, engine failure, or other incident, play the scenario out in your mind. Maybe even while sitting in the cockpit. Plan what you could do to survive the situation. Look at your plane and see if you need to change something to keep the same problem from occurring to you. Maybe inspect the parts that may have contributed to the incident. Randy Stout n282rs"at"earthlink.net www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > [Original Message] > From: Tom Farin > To: > Date: 7/7/2006 8:34:40 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06 > > > The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the Corvair engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in 1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at Corvaircraft, on William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site. Mark had one of the four failures. The consensus seems to be that in all four cases the installation deviated from the instructions in Wynne's manual - prop extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way that placed additional stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark and William put substantial time into examining the causes of the failures. In spite of the fact there are no known crank failures on installations per the WW manual, WW is now recommending the crank be Nitrided to give it additional strength. In spite of a harrowing experience, Mark is again flying with a stock WW conversion. > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:28 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair Forums and Info --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" The best info on the Corvair engine conversion is on William Wynne's web site: www.flycorvair.com There is also another forum for the Corvair conversion where these kinds of discussions are more on topic: http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey >From: "Christopher Smith" >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Bashing and other irritating, >close-minded individuals... >Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:35:30 -0500 > >Thank you Tom, But Mr. Maxson post was insulting to someone who just wanted >info. Now I know Mr.Maxson's post was not pointed my way but we all just >wanted to understand. > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:14 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair cranks Install a different engine ? Just had to do it. I don't know what got into me. I cam only blame global warming, sun spots, green Scotchbite and huffing zinc chromate do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:51 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" Robin, You know a level of satisfaction that many other homebuilders will not know. You built the engine yourself (with help from experts of course). This is one of the main reasons I chose the Corvair and stuck with the rebuilding sub-project. It is great fun. I learned more from that than from the rest of the project. Now, this evening, I'm going flying. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey >From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:24:19 -0500 > >Having built my Wynne-Vair 2900 with the generous assistance and guidance >of the WW crew, the satisfaction of completing it and the knowledge and >understanding of it is such that I would not trade it for a brand new Jab. >I expect to fly behind it in more comfort than I would any new engine I >could have purchased. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Smith > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:44 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions > > > ...Now is the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The >corvair does not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will >have no choice. Thank you. > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:07 PM PST US From: "AZFlyer" Subject: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" At the risk of interrupting the enlightning Corvair engine discussion, I'd like to ask for input on building of the XL wings. I have currently riveted the right wing skeleton together, pilot drilled and clecoed the top skin, turned the wing over and drilled bottom and nose skin to A5 and A4 respectively, clecoed the bottom rear and nose skin. My plan, with the ZAC assembly pictures and discription a little thin here, was to remove all bottom clecos, debur and Zinc C the bottom skins, rivet nose ribs on, rivet bottom and nose skin on, then turn wing over to install tank and finish up on top.(ie., wing tip, locker, wiring, etc.) The assembly pics on the CD and ZAC site sort of jump around on different stages here. Am I doing this in correct order, or did I miss something along the way? Thanks in advance... -------- Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com 601 XL, 3300 Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45559#45559 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:13 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: Oh my gawd, we're all goin' die! Nor on a Jab! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" > Not on a Rotax! -----Original Message----- A tach could easily kill an ignition...All it has to do is short the signal wire to ground and that ign will stop working. do not archive ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:06 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions Chris, Please check out the web sight, corvaircraft.com. There you will find the link to the Corvair List, which is a more appropriate place for you to get info. I don't wish to belabor this point with the good Zenith builders on this list. Better yet, invest the $150 or so to get WW's manual which will answer virtually every question you have concerning Corvair conversions. If you are truly interested in experimental aviation this will be a very small investment. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Do not arcive. Gary & Randy, I would like to point out that I just wanted info on the corvair. Please read the posts & you will see that. I said some things wrong that made it sound as if I was lumping all corvair builders into the same group. For that I am sorry (Think I have said I'm Sorry more in the last day than the last 10 years). But please take time to understand that some of you take criticism to questions of reliability. I will say this only once......To walk info anything in aviation blind could cost you your life. That does not mean that just because the batt might quit and take the engine with it is better or worse than engine x y or z. But if I choose the corvair not caring what makes it differ from any other engine, Then I am a bad builder, a bad pilot. Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics of engine? I think not. Someone took the time to answer your questions. Now is the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choice. Thank you. On 7/6/06, Randy Bryant wrote: I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every time you mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out you are using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh... OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic flight at Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable for flight? I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in 1903, one of the biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough power and still light enough for flight... They used what they had, what they could make and what they could find or invent. At some point between then and now, someone has taken or was given the authority to say what's "certified" and what's not... That being said, the word "certified" is still someone's opinion. They can say one engine is certified and one is not... If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying Machine Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but certified by whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean that all the other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone else builds/copies of my original design, that accomplishes the same work as mine, at half the cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I could say that and tell the world that, but would it be correct..? No, just an opinion...mine. Along the same thought of: The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no rules, no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made rules, set up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to govern the activity they introduced to the world and anyone, who from then till today, that plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew... Something wrong with that picture... Who gave the "authorities" the authority??? Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are: 1. I'll be there on Friday. 2. The check is in the mail. 3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you. Bottom line is: We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own efforts. I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because you choose to do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you work and efforts are fruitless and void... You have to do it to a degree that is pleases you. Keep in mind what the role of the part is, that's in question, and build the part to accomplish its designated role... Heck, I've seen pictures of parts built for homebuilts, even Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet on my wheel barrow and trust... but the guy that built it, built it for himself, to suit himself, to accomplish the task he planned for it to do...and that's good enough for me. Randy XL Wings - Plans Only http://www.n344rb.com Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM Chris, Paul, I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe - No, actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and they have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today!!! So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of experimental aviation that truly inspires me! My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and the 601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought processes before making any opinion about the Corvair - or don't. Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your questions answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and fly is your own business. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... -- Christopher W. E. Smith fly1m1 http://ch-601xl.com ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:46 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Mike, I think you are on the right track. I ran into serious problems after riveting the nose skin on the bottom and then discovering I didn't position it correctly to make the right position on the main spar angle on the top. I would suggest you check this positioning carefully. Also, I didn't follow the suggestion in the photo guide to install temporary solid rivets to keep the alignment between the top skin and main spar. Instead, I went ahead and drilled the top skin and clecoed it to the spar before turning over and doing the bottom. Whichever method you use, make sure the position of the top rear skin is fixed to the main spar to keep the rear ribs in the proper (perpendicular) angle to the spar before fixing the skins on the bottom. Other than that, I think you have it going just fine. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 01:55 PM 7/7/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" > >At the risk of interrupting the enlightning Corvair engine >discussion, I'd like to ask for input on building of the XL wings. > >I have currently riveted the right wing skeleton together, pilot >drilled and clecoed the top skin, turned the wing over and drilled >bottom and nose skin to A5 and A4 respectively, clecoed the bottom >rear and nose skin. > >My plan, with the ZAC assembly pictures and discription a little >thin here, was to remove all bottom clecos, debur and Zinc C the >bottom skins, rivet nose ribs on, rivet bottom and nose skin on, >then turn wing over to install tank and finish up on top.(ie., wing >tip, locker, wiring, etc.) > >The assembly pics on the CD and ZAC site sort of jump around on >different stages here. Am I doing this in correct order, or did I >miss something along the way? > >Thanks in advance... > >-------- >Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com >601 XL, 3300 > >Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45559#45559 > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:39 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building Mike, It sounds like you have the procedure down right. Remember to leave the rivets out where the flap hinge goes. Also leave the clecoes in the nose skin and the first nose rib outboard of the fuel tank. That is in case you have to "jiggle" the nose rib to get the fuel tank in place, according to ZAC. Assuming that confession is good for the soul (and an admonition to others), I confess: I moved those clecoes inside. I only realized I had forgotten about them after everything was riveted (except those pesky inside clecoes). So I cut an "inspection" hole in the bottom of the nose skin, large enough to get my hand in and retrieve the clecoes. Build and learn! Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:19 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> I'd say yes. That's exactly what I did and it seemed to work fine. My wings are now finished on the bottom with tanks and lockers installed, but tops still clecoed for access for wiring etc. Robin in AR, 601XL w/Wynne-Vair 2900 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:55 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" > > At the risk of interrupting the enlightning Corvair engine discussion, I'd > like to ask for input on building of the XL wings. > > I have currently riveted the right wing skeleton together, pilot drilled > and clecoed the top skin, turned the wing over and drilled bottom and nose > skin to A5 and A4 respectively, clecoed the bottom rear and nose skin. > > My plan, with the ZAC assembly pictures and discription a little thin > here, was to remove all bottom clecos, debur and Zinc C the bottom skins, > rivet nose ribs on, rivet bottom and nose skin on, then turn wing over to > install tank and finish up on top.(ie., wing tip, locker, wiring, etc.) > > The assembly pics on the CD and ZAC site sort of jump around on different > stages here. Am I doing this in correct order, or did I miss something > along the way? > > Thanks in advance... > > -------- > Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com > 601 XL, 3300 > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:54 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions That invaluable WW Conversion Manual is only $59. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:17 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions Chris, Please check out the web sight, corvaircraft.com. There you will find the link to the Corvair List, which is a more appropriate place for you to get info. I don't wish to belabor this point with the good Zenith builders on this list. Better yet, invest the $150 or so to get WW's manual which will answer virtually every question you have concerning Corvair conversions. If you are truly interested in experimental aviation this will be a very small investment. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Do not arcive. Gary & Randy, I would like to point out that I just wanted info on the corvair. Please read the posts & you will see that. I said some things wrong that made it sound as if I was lumping all corvair builders into the same group. For that I am sorry (Think I have said I'm Sorry more in the last day than the last 10 years). But please take time to understand that some of you take criticism to questions of reliability. I will say this only once......To walk info anything in aviation blind could cost you your life. That does not mean that just because the batt might quit and take the engine with it is better or worse than engine x y or z. But if I choose the corvair not caring what makes it differ from any other engine, Then I am a bad builder, a bad pilot. Did anyone on this list choose the corvair with knowing the basics of engine? I think not. Someone took the time to answer your questions. Now is the time to promote your engine of choice, not defend it. The corvair does not need defending! Guys, Help me with my choice, or i will have no choice. Thank you. On 7/6/06, Randy Bryant wrote: I've been sitting back tonight watching this discussion and a question crossed my mind tonight, that has many times before... Seems every time you mention building a plane to someone on the street and they find out you are using an auto engine conversion, they just snicker and laugh... OK.. At what point after the Wright brothers made their historic flight at Kitty Hawk, NC, did only "certified" engines become suitable for flight? I'm sure there was no such thing as a "certified" engine in 1903, one of the biggest struggles was to find an engine with enough power and still light enough for flight... They used what they had, what they could make and what they could find or invent. At some point between then and now, someone has taken or was given the authority to say what's "certified" and what's not... That being said, the word "certified" is still someone's opinion. They can say one engine is certified and one is not... If I had a product on hand, that I called a "Super Duper Flying Machine Motor", I could say to the world, "It is certified!"...but certified by whom?... Me. It's still an opinion...mine. Does this mean that all the other "Super Duper Flying Machine Motors" that everyone else builds/copies of my original design, that accomplishes the same work as mine, at half the cost, is junk? Not worthy to do the job? I could say that and tell the world that, but would it be correct..? No, just an opinion...mine. Along the same thought of: The Wright brothers introduced flight to the world... There were no rules, no "certifications"... Then the government stepped in, and made rules, set up administrations, licensing, certifications...etc., to govern the activity they introduced to the world and anyone, who from then till today, that plays by their rules, are "certified"... Whew... Something wrong with that picture... Who gave the "authorities" the authority??? Remember, the 3 biggest lies in the world are: 1. I'll be there on Friday. 2. The check is in the mail. 3. We're the FAA, and we're here to help you. Bottom line is: We are all trying to get into the air...our own way...by our own efforts. I'll do it my way, and you'll do it yours. BUT, just because you choose to do it your way instead of my way, doesn't mean that you work and efforts are fruitless and void... You have to do it to a degree that is pleases you. Keep in mind what the role of the part is, that's in question, and build the part to accomplish its designated role... Heck, I've seen pictures of parts built for homebuilts, even Zodiacs, I wouldn't rivet on my wheel barrow and trust... but the guy that built it, built it for himself, to suit himself, to accomplish the task he planned for it to do...and that's good enough for me. Randy XL Wings - Plans Only http://www.n344rb.com Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:27 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair Conversions Chris, Paul, I am one of those who chose the Corvair first, then an airframe - No, actually, I have wanted to build a Pietenpol for close to 40 years, and they have been powered by Model A engines since 1928!!! And still are today!!! So much for the argument against auto conversions. That's the part of experimental aviation that truly inspires me! My passion for the Piet led me to the Corvair which led me to WW and the 601. Please take the time to understand WW's background and thought processes before making any opinion about the Corvair - or don't. Also, there may be a more appropriate List for you to have your questions answered at: www.corvaircraft@mylist.net Please take this kindly when I say that what inspires you to build and fly is your own business. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... -- Christopher W. E. Smith fly1m1 http://ch-601xl.com ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:01 PM PST US From: Hudsonmusic1@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: weight of engines? Isn't the corvair engine about the same weight as a continental 0-200? Wouldn't both reduce the useful load of the 601xl ? What is the useful load of the factory built LSA with the 0-235 in it? Just courious. Thanks. Jeff; waiting on wing kit. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:18 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair cranks I'm not so sure that nitriding will eliminate...or even help the Corvair crank breaking problem... I'm not an expert on nitriding, but I've been around it a little in my time... I used to machine plastic ejection molds and tooling dies... There are what's called "ejector pins" that the tops of mold and dies slide up and down on to make the 2 halves meet properly... If you can imagine a 4 legged table sitting on it's top with the 4 legs in the air, then cut a piece of plywood with 4 holes in it to fit over the legs and slide up and down, this is what it's equivalent to... The legs would be the ejector pins. (I've attached a picture of a MUD Die) We used to have these pins nitrided all the time... Nitriding, at least what the nitriders told me, is that it doesn't make the part more resistant to breakage, but it makes it tougher from a wear perspective... I know on molds and dies, the top half sliding up and down through every cycle on the ejector pins, they would wear, then the 2 halves wouldn't match up right...they'd mis-match... We'd nitride these pins to make their outer surface harder to resist wear...they'd still break as easily as they were before nitriding, if side load was applied, their outter surface just didn't wear as fast... You can hit a nitrided part with a file and the file will just bounce off it...but keep on filing, and in a few thousandths, you'll be through the nitriding and the steel will be soft as ever... SO, from my limited experience and knowledge of nitriding, if I was having a crankshaft that was wearing out quickly on the bearing journals, nitriding seems like a good cure..but to use as a cure for breakage from side load, it just doesn't make sense to me... In my thinking, you'd need a flange and a thrust bearing to handle side loads... Anyone out there care to elaborate more on nitriding?? Maybe I'm way off base here... Don't know... I will say that at this time I plan on using a WW Corvair conversion in my XL when the time comes... Good lord, I'm just working on the wings right now! ;-) Just my .02 worth... Randy XL Wings - Plans Only http://www.n344rb.com Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:21 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" > > William Wynne's own crank had stress fractures in it. This was a standard > conversion. I'm sure that's what convinced him to recommend nitriding the > cranks. I did not have a prop extension, or horsepower upgrade and yet my > crank broke. My crank had not been nitrided either, but then I had never > heard of a crank failure on a Corvair until about a year or so ago. I > figured since they have been flying Corvairs on Peitenpols since the 60's, > I didn't see any rush. Since my crank break, I have come to realize that > we > have been flying these engines much harder than the Pietenpol guys do. > > Possible reasons for my crank break: > Case being "sloppy". I wish I had the measuring equipment to verify this > one way or another. > Prop out of balance. Maybe. I know I'm going to get it dynamically > balanced when I get it flying again. > Max performance takeoffs. Nearly every flight began that way. > Cruising at 3100 rpm or higher. I almost always pushed the engine hard. I > think WW usually cruises at 2900 rpm. > > I'm not completely convinced about the nitriding, because it is a > hardening > process. If one where to pose the question of whether or not to substitute > grade 8 bolts for AN bolts, the argument would normally be that grade 8 > have been hardened and are more brittle than an AN bolt . It would not be > able to take the bending moment that an AN bolt could. For some reason it > must be different on a crankshaft, but I don't understand why. However, > since the experts have determined that nitriding is the way to go, I will > follow. > > Something we all need to do regardless of the engine we fly behind: When > you hear of a crash, engine failure, or other incident, play the scenario > out in your mind. Maybe even while sitting in the cockpit. Plan what you > could do to survive the situation. Look at your plane and see if you need > to change something to keep the same problem from occurring to you. Maybe > inspect the parts that may have contributed to the incident. > > Randy Stout > n282rs"at"earthlink.net > www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Tom Farin >> To: >> Date: 7/7/2006 8:34:40 AM >> Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06 >> > >> >> The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the > last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the > Corvair > engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in > 1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at Corvaircraft, on > William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site. Mark had one of the > four failures. The consensus seems to be that in all four cases the > installation deviated from the instructions in Wynne's manual - prop > extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way that placed additional > stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark and William put > substantial time into examining the causes of the failures. In spite of > the fact there are no known crank failures on installations per the WW > manual, WW is now recommending the crank be Nitrided to give it additional > strength. In spite of a harrowing experience, Mark is again flying with a > stock WW conversion. >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:35 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Slow day --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Tourjour consevative.... I use A4 set flush with a flat nose piece. Ed ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:15 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith > > Some poor guy is racked up in Ed's chair, got half a bale of cotton > stuffed into his cheeks, enough pain killer that he can't feel his elbows, > his has squeezed the chair arms until his knuckles are white (and > bleeding), there are hoses, clamps and thing-a-dooeys hanging from his > numb lips, the assortment of "tools" on the tray looks like Diesel > Mechanics 101, and Ed is playing on the Internet. > > Do you use an A4 or A5 to seal a root canal? > > do not archive or drill > > Zed > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:01 PM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: don't archive!!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" My first guitar cost $1.50. It was a Kay with a little problem with the body. I used a knife and gently cut the back off and then used damp cloths to soften the front and put it back into shape. I traded up to a well worn Gretsch and then to a Les Paul. I've owned several Fenders over the years. I think the Les Paul Deluxe is the best guitar ever made. There are Gibson's and there are guitars. (Sorry, no Corvairs (Epiphones), Rotaxes(Rickenbackers), Subaru's (Yahamas), VW's (Peavey)). My apologies in advance to those who are offended by non-aviation posts. These days, with my reduced hearing capacity, I get by with an old Elkhart (sp) Upright Bass. When I'm down around Rayne, Lafayette and Crowley I listen to the bands at some of the Cajun joints. One of the best meals I had was Wild Duck Gumbo at the Acadia Parish School Board maintenance shop............ So there, I bit, er... gummed. Absolutely, Positively, Mr Bowes.... Do Not Archive Tommy Walker in Lower Slobovia -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dredmoody@cox.net Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:15 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: Not when I do them! You just need a nicer dentist. Ed PS: What? No bite on the guitar controversy? I am depressed. ---- Zed Smith wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith > > A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its Friday, the Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours, the next weekend is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a root canal. > > Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant! ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:51 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" I rivetted the nose ribs (completed the skeleton) before drilling and clecoing any of the skins. I don't see a problem with doing it in the order you described. You will find it easier to cut and finish access hatches before the skin is rivetted to the skeleton. Also (probably obvious) make sure you have all conduit, wiring, and plumbing done to your satisfaction before riveting the nose and top rear skin. The aileron bellcrank brakets should be rivetted to rear rib 7 before rivetting any skins, and the aileron pushrod should be finished before rivetting the top rear skin. Rigging aileron cables can be done via the bellcrank access hatch later when the wings are mated to the fuselage. Anybody see a problem with any of this? Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "AZFlyer" > > At the risk of interrupting the enlightning Corvair engine discussion, I'd > like to ask for input on building of the XL wings. > > I have currently riveted the right wing skeleton together, pilot drilled > and clecoed the top skin, turned the wing over and drilled bottom and nose > skin to A5 and A4 respectively, clecoed the bottom rear and nose skin. > > My plan, with the ZAC assembly pictures and discription a little thin > here, was to remove all bottom clecos, debur and Zinc C the bottom skins, > rivet nose ribs on, rivet bottom and nose skin on, then turn wing over to > install tank and finish up on top.(ie., wing tip, locker, wiring, etc.) > > The assembly pics on the CD and ZAC site sort of jump around on different > stages here. Am I doing this in correct order, or did I miss something > along the way? > > Thanks in advance... > > -------- > Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:42 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair cranks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" There should be many hundreds of hours of nitrided crank testing happening in 2006 and 2007. Just sit tight and we'll do all the test flying and keep you informed. This subject has been beaten to death on the Corvaircraft list. Search the archives to your heart's content. I'll be test flying my nitrided crank while you do! Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey Oshkosh Bound in a couple weeks. >From: "Randy Bryant" >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair cranks >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 21:11:08 -0400 > >I'm not so sure that nitriding will eliminate...or even help the Corvair >crank breaking problem... > <> ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:18 PM PST US From: "Jean-Paul Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" Peavy,,,,,,,,,waaashhhhhhhh! lollllll not even good for beginners J.P. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:24 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" > > Gibson vs. Fender? What about Kramer, hammer, Ibanez, G&L, Peavey, & > Yamaha? Are you questioning my choice of playing a Peavey? You must be > an elitist guitar snob!! LOL - Sorry, I couldn't resist! > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > John R. Hines > IT Manager > Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. > 901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 > Rogers, AR 72756 > Office: 479-878-2449 > Mobile: 479-366-4783 > Fax: 479-631-6224 > John.Hines@craftontull.com > www.craftontull.com > > Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions. > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > dredmoody@cox.net > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:13 PM > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender? > > Ed Moody II > > Do Not Archive > > ---- Christopher Smith wrote: > > I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be > one > > soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding > on > > what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people > on > > this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I > will ask > > lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank > you for > > the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your > words on > > the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way! > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. > > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:18 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building Personally, I would rig the bellcrank cables before colsing the wing. It is probably possible to to the cable swaging through the access panel, but I felt that it would be a real tight squeeze and a real hassle. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:18 PM PST US From: "Jean-Paul Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" Hey Ed, I've got a Telecaster and an old Strat that I just love! Mind you I gave my old Gibson away but I won't get rid of my Lespaul,,,,,,, just in case. J.P. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:13 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Hey, now can we have a pissing match over Gibson guitars vs. Fender? > > Ed Moody II > > Do Not Archive > > ---- Christopher Smith wrote: > > I really didn't mean to lump all corvair guys into one for I might be one > > soon. I'm sure Phil is a nice guy & I hope he will help me on deciding on > > what to do about my engine choices. I know there are many smart people on > > this list, & that can only be a help to me in the years to come. I will ask > > lots of questions, & none of them will be to put down anyone. Thank you for > > the response & thank all of you who have written me off list. Your words on > > the list are nice to hear. & oh.....crotch rockets all the way! > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:18 PM PST US From: "Wade Jones" Subject: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Hello Group ,first thanks for the comments/advise on my first post . At that time I had planed to buy a kit and pick it up at the factory in my travel trailer .I have since decided to plans build the 601XL ,this may be optimistic thinking for a 72 year old .However as far as I know I have no medical problems that I am aware of that would hinder my completion .I got the plans a couple of weeks ago and I have completed the wood forms for the tail section ,flaps and ailerons .Today I built my 4' X 12' table and made my first aluminum order from Aircraft Spruce for about half of the airframe .As I said in my earlier post I have been flying a Cont. 0200 powered Soneria for the past 29 years along with my trusty Tripacer .I read every post on this site and I am very pleased to belong to such a great group ,so please bear with me if some of my questions seem too simple . Wade Jones ,Plans # 6464 , South Texas ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:04 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: weight of engines? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz The AMD Zodiac XL claims 520 pounds useful load. It uses the Continental O-200 rather than the Lycoming O-235. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >Isn't the corvair engine about the same weight as a continental >0-200? Wouldn't both reduce the useful load of the 601xl ? What is >the useful load of the factory built LSA with the 0-235 in it? Just >courious. Thanks. Jeff; waiting on wing kit. - ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:09 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Ed, Just one little detail that might be improved. The access hatch cover for the fuel tank finger strainer overlaps both nose ribs, so it might be easier to do that hatch after riveting the bottom nose skin. Paul XL Fuselage >I rivetted the nose ribs (completed the skeleton) before drilling >and clecoing any of the skins. I don't see a problem with doing it >in the order you described. You will find it easier to cut and >finish access hatches before the skin is rivetted to the skeleton. >Also (probably obvious) make sure you have all conduit, wiring, and >plumbing done to your satisfaction before riveting the nose and top >rear skin. The aileron bellcrank brakets should be rivetted to rear >rib 7 before rivetting any skins, and the aileron pushrod should be >finished before rivetting the top rear skin. Rigging aileron cables >can be done via the bellcrank access hatch later when the wings are >mated to the fuselage. > >Anybody see a problem with any of this? > >Ed Moody II >Rayne, LA >601XL / wings --- ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:16 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: Seeking O-200 oil tank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" Hello Listers: Does anyone have a Continenatal O-200 oil tank for sale (oil sump, kidney tank etc.). We are majoring the engine on our '59 C150 and our tank has rusted through areas. It was taken to a "certified" welder who finished destroying it for us. If you can help, please contact me. Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:02 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair cranks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Randy Check out Mark Langford's site here: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/flexplate/problem.html He broke his crank and did a lot of the legwork into finding out why and finding the Nitride solution. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Bryant Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:11 PM I'm not so sure that nitriding will eliminate...or even help the Corvair crank breaking problem... I'm not an expert on nitriding, but I've been around it a little in my time... I used to machine plastic ejection molds and tooling dies... There are what's called "ejector pins" that the tops of mold and dies slide up and down on to make the 2 halves meet properly... If you can imagine a 4 legged table sitting on it's top with the 4 legs in the air, then cut a piece of plywood with 4 holes in it to fit over the legs and slide up and down, this is what it's equivalent to... The legs would be the ejector pins. (I've attached a picture of a MUD Die) We used to have these pins nitrided all the time... Nitriding, at least what the nitriders told me, is that it doesn't make the part more resistant to breakage, but it makes it tougher from a wear perspective... I know on molds and dies, the top half sliding up and down through every cycle on the ejector pins, they would wear, then the 2 halves wouldn't match up right...they'd mis-match... We'd nitride these pins to make their outer surface harder to resist wear...they'd still break as easily as they were before nitriding, if side load was applied, their outter surface just didn't wear as fast... You can hit a nitrided part with a file and the file will just bounce off it...but keep on filing, and in a few thousandths, you'll be through the nitriding and the steel will be soft as ever... SO, from my limited experience and knowledge of nitriding, if I was having a crankshaft that was wearing out quickly on the bearing journals, nitriding seems like a good cure..but to use as a cure for breakage from side load, it just doesn't make sense to me... In my thinking, you'd need a flange and a thrust bearing to handle side loads... Anyone out there care to elaborate more on nitriding?? Maybe I'm way off base here... Don't know... I will say that at this time I plan on using a WW Corvair conversion in my XL when the time comes... Good lord, I'm just working on the wings right now! ;-) Just my .02 worth... Randy XL Wings - Plans Only http://www.n344rb.com Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:21 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" > > William Wynne's own crank had stress fractures in it. This was a standard > conversion. I'm sure that's what convinced him to recommend nitriding the > cranks. I did not have a prop extension, or horsepower upgrade and yet my > crank broke. My crank had not been nitrided either, but then I had never > heard of a crank failure on a Corvair until about a year or so ago. I > figured since they have been flying Corvairs on Peitenpols since the 60's, > I didn't see any rush. Since my crank break, I have come to realize that > we > have been flying these engines much harder than the Pietenpol guys do. > > Possible reasons for my crank break: > Case being "sloppy". I wish I had the measuring equipment to verify this > one way or another. > Prop out of balance. Maybe. I know I'm going to get it dynamically > balanced when I get it flying again. > Max performance takeoffs. Nearly every flight began that way. > Cruising at 3100 rpm or higher. I almost always pushed the engine hard. I > think WW usually cruises at 2900 rpm. > > I'm not completely convinced about the nitriding, because it is a > hardening > process. If one where to pose the question of whether or not to substitute > grade 8 bolts for AN bolts, the argument would normally be that grade 8 > have been hardened and are more brittle than an AN bolt . It would not be > able to take the bending moment that an AN bolt could. For some reason it > must be different on a crankshaft, but I don't understand why. However, > since the experts have determined that nitriding is the way to go, I will > follow. > > Something we all need to do regardless of the engine we fly behind: When > you hear of a crash, engine failure, or other incident, play the scenario > out in your mind. Maybe even while sitting in the cockpit. Plan what you > could do to survive the situation. Look at your plane and see if you need > to change something to keep the same problem from occurring to you. Maybe > inspect the parts that may have contributed to the incident. > > Randy Stout > n282rs"at"earthlink.net > www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Tom Farin >> To: >> Date: 7/7/2006 8:34:40 AM >> Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06 >> > >> >> The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the > last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the > Corvair > engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in > 1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at Corvaircraft, on > William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site. Mark had one of the > four failures. The consensus seems to be that in all four cases the > installation deviated from the instructions in Wynne's manual - prop > extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way that placed additional > stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark and William put > substantial time into examining the causes of the failures. In spite of > the fact there are no known crank failures on installations per the WW > manual, WW is now recommending the crank be Nitrided to give it additional > strength. In spite of a harrowing experience, Mark is again flying with a > stock WW conversion. >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:09 PM PST US From: Thesumak@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Seeking O-200 oil tank Randy: I had some luck last year sealing small holes in my C-85 sump by brazing. If the holes are small, you might try this before giving up on yours. Cheers, Bill Do not archive ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:31 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine With all due respect.....I just got a call today from our local DAR and guess what??? he asked me to go with him to pick up a RV-7 powered by a o-360 with a rod thru the case. I am not knocking Lycoming here just pointing out that the mags didn't matter much in this case did they? I am getting sick of this discussion that is really going no where fast. Bottom line is that are the dual points truly redundant NO and the reason is because there is only one shaft that drives the cam to open the points, we know this and accept it but using armor plated wire and having a backup battery and a crawl space to get to the engine in flight wont help you if you have other issues. stop beating a dead horse or trying to convince us of what we are in agreement with already. ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:29 PM PST US From: Richard Vetterli Subject: Zenith-List: Can we just lighten up? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Richard Vetterli WOW!! Todays digest had 78 messages and most were long and angry. Take a breath, folks. Go out and rivet something. Remember, no fist fights at Oshkosh. Rich Vetterli 601XL/Corvair Tail complete, working on wings Check it out at www.geocities.com/stixx5a __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:34 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine This is why I'm thinking of scraping the 601XL idea and start building a bi-plane... This way if one set of wings 'go bad', I'll have another, redundant set! :-) Randy Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:00 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine With all due respect.....I just got a call today from our local DAR and guess what??? he asked me to go with him to pick up a RV-7 powered by a o-360 with a rod thru the case. I am not knocking Lycoming here just pointing out that the mags didn't matter much in this case did they? I am getting sick of this discussion that is really going no where fast. Bottom line is that are the dual points truly redundant NO and the reason is because there is only one shaft that drives the cam to open the points, we know this and accept it but using armor plated wire and having a backup battery and a crawl space to get to the engine in flight wont help you if you have other issues. stop beating a dead horse or trying to convince us of what we are in agreement with already.