---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/08/06: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:16 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (James Ferris) 2. 04:16 AM - Re: Can we just lighten up? (James Ferris) 3. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Dave Thompson) 4. 06:01 AM - Re: Corvair cranks (Bill Naumuk) 5. 06:06 AM - Re: don't archive!!! (Bill Naumuk) 6. 06:33 AM - Re: Wing Building (Edward Moody II) 7. 06:38 AM - Re: Getting started on CH601XL (Edward Moody II) 8. 06:47 AM - Re: weight of engines? (Jim Pellien) 9. 07:29 AM - Re: Wing Building (Jaybannist@cs.com) 10. 07:39 AM - Re: Getting started on CH601XL (Wade Jones) 11. 07:39 AM - Yaw oscillation, 701 (William Mileski) 12. 07:52 AM - Re: Wing Building (Gary Boothe) 13. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Wing Building (Michael Valentine) 14. 08:26 AM - Has WW been seen lately? (wscribb) 15. 08:26 AM - Corvair decision made. (Christopher Smith) 16. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Dan Lykowski) 17. 08:47 AM - Re: Corvair decision made. (Gary Boothe) 18. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Wing Building (Randy Bryant) 19. 09:08 AM - Re: Has WW been seen lately? (Robin Bellach) 20. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine (Paul Mulwitz) 21. 09:51 AM - Too many messages (Stanley Challgren) 22. 10:17 AM - Re: Wing Building (Jaybannist@cs.com) 23. 11:23 AM - Re: Has WW been seen lately? (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 24. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Re: Wing Building (Michael Valentine) 25. 12:04 PM - Re: Wing Building (Jaybannist@cs.com) 26. 12:26 PM - Re: Has WW been seen lately? (Robin Bellach) 27. 01:00 PM - Help on XL fuselage (Jaybannist@cs.com) 28. 02:41 PM - Re: Wing Building (Randy Bryant) 29. 02:41 PM - Re: Help on XL fuselage (Al Young) 30. 02:56 PM - Re: Yaw oscillation, 701 (Tommy Walker) 31. 02:59 PM - Pushing back a 601XL (Frank Derfler) 32. 03:09 PM - Re: Yaw oscillation, 701 (raymondj) 33. 03:30 PM - Re: Help on XL fuselage (Jaybannist@cs.com) 34. 04:08 PM - Re: Yaw oscillation, 701 (Ashcraft, Keith -AES) 35. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: broken distributor shaft (Dave) 36. 04:26 PM - Scratch build - pre drill holes before bending? (David Wright) 37. 05:26 PM - Re: Pushing back a 601XL (LarryMcFarland) 38. 05:30 PM - Re: Scratch build - pre drill holes before (Paul Mulwitz) 39. 05:43 PM - Re: Wing Building (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 40. 06:10 PM - Re: Pushing back a 601XL (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 41. 06:11 PM - Re: Wing Building (Gary Boothe) 42. 06:16 PM - Re: Pushing back a 601XL (Jim Pellien) 43. 08:03 PM - Re: Scratch build - pre drill holes before (David Barth) 44. 08:15 PM - Re: Scratch build - pre drill holes before bending? (N5SL) 45. 08:22 PM - Re: Rilsan Polyamide Tubing: How to heat bend? (norriedh) 46. 08:54 PM - Re: Getting started on CH601XL (Edward Moody II) 47. 08:54 PM - Re: Getting started on CH601XL (John Anderson) 48. 09:11 PM - Re: Re: Re: Wing Building (Edward Moody II) 49. 09:23 PM - Re: Wing Building (Edward Moody II) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:15 AM PST US From: James Ferris Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris I have nevwr heard of a broken distributer shaft. --- Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > With all due respect.....I just got a call today > from our local DAR and > guess what??? he asked me to go with him to pick up > a RV-7 powered by a o-360 > with a rod thru the case. I am not knocking Lycoming > here just pointing out that > the mags didn't matter much in this case did they? I > am getting sick of this > discussion that is really going no where fast. > Bottom line is that are the dual points truly > redundant NO and the reason is > because there is only one shaft that drives the cam > to open the points, we > know this and accept it but using armor plated wire > and having a backup battery > and a crawl space to get to the engine in flight > wont help you if you have > other issues. stop beating a dead horse or trying > to convince us of what we > are in agreement with already. > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:15 AM PST US From: James Ferris Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Can we just lighten up? --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris Is'n it the most BULL SHIT you ever saw in one pile. --- Richard Vetterli wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Richard Vetterli > > > WOW!! Todays digest had 78 messages and most were > long > and angry. Take a breath, folks. Go out and rivet > something. Remember, no fist fights at Oshkosh. > Rich Vetterli > 601XL/Corvair > Tail complete, working on wings > Check it out at www.geocities.com/stixx5a > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:28 AM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine Wow! What happened? Guys! Guys! I'm sorry that I started this argument! First of all, I'm the first to admit that I don't know much about aircraft. That's why I am on this list. I don't even have an airframe yet. As for the Corvair engine, Yes, that's what I intend to use. Not a defense, just a fact. Why a Corvair? I had a '64 Corvair car in High School and the price looked good. As I researched the engine, I became impressed with the research & development that is being done on the Corvair / 601XL combination. I also was impressed with the people doing it. What I learned was that I was personally willing to accept the level of dependability it will provide, which by the way, flight testing has proven to be very high. If I follow the experts' advice, I can expect to have a powerful and dependable power plant. The lower price allowed me to afford to build the aircraft that all of us here love: A Chris Heintz design. Don't get me wrong, Risk management is foremost in my mind. We must ALL decide for our selves our own level of Risk. That's why I'm not building a wood & fabric plane. It's not within MY PERSONAL level of risk. It's also why I didn't make a third parachute jump back in the 70's. My goal is to get in the air. I want to someday have the pride of saying "I built this airplane!" it will also be cool to say "and the engine too!" As for the other engines, I feel they ALL have their good points and bad points. That's the glory of homebuilding! We ALL get to CHOOSE what we build, hang up front and stick in the panel. And face it: most of us have to consider the size of out wallets. I don't care if you hang a cooling fan motor on some sticks and bed sheets and painted it hot pink. (Let's not start a debate over colors :) If you built it yourself, have the nerve to fly your creation and are proud of it, I'm as happy FOR you as you are. I consider you a brother in the quest for the sky. I joined this group to learn as much as I could. I've posted a few questions and answered some too. Thank you all for the great information I have received. Let's not debate the choices of others or put down other products because they weren't YOUR choice. Let's just try to be as helpful and technically accurate as we can. Now, with that said: I mentioned the ignition system because it was relevant to the original question; connecting a Dynon to a Corvair. The information that I gave about a Tach possibly shorting out an Ignition system came from William Wynne. He has the most experience with Corvair flight engines. That's why I plan to follow his advice. Whatever engine you choose, you should seek out the experts and consider their advice. Anyway, if you want to know more about the flight Corvair ignition or anything else about the engine, check out William's website. www.flycorvair.com . You will get the correct flight tested information. With a quick search I found some statements about tach hookup. Look about half way down for the question entitled: "Tachometer coil pickup". http://www.flycorvair.com/email1204.html Also check out this link a little past half way down. He shows a picture of the tach pickup on his 601XL. http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar1005.html After you read the above websites, and you feel that direct connection of a tach is within your comfort zone of reliability, then go for it. It just seems to me that if someone more qualified than me says not to do it, I won't. If you don't know the options, you can't make an educated decision. I think that's the intent of the original question; to get all the information. I put a very cheap tach on my mustang when I was in high school. Several months later, it failed, shorted out and disabled the ignition system. I don't want the same thing to happen to my airplane. The debate is not coil/points ignition over magneto, that's a debate for the Engine List. The point is if you use a dual ignition distributor on a Corvair flight engine, the designer has tested and has said to keep the tach completely divorced from the ignition. His research and testing strongly suggests some sort of pickup to count teeth on the starter gear. I read someplace that the MSD inductive pickup for tachometer might work but I haven't found anyone who has tried it. I am not really qualified to suggest a pickup that would be compatible with the Dynon units. I hope that by the time I get ready for my panel someone has come up with a resolution to the issue. I hope I didn't offend anybody or sound too crabby, Dave Thompson dave.thompson@verizon.net Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:30 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair cranks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Randy- You're describing the guide bars, not the ejectors. They depend on bushings for alignment and to cut down on wear. You are right about the ejector pins and slides, though. TiN is used to fill the surface imperfections of a part after grinding to cut down on friction, thus surface wear. That's the concept behind a TiN drill bit. They last longer not because they're tougher, but slipperier. I have absolutely no idea how this applies to the Corvair cranks- you just asked about TiN. Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:11 PM > I'm not so sure that nitriding will eliminate...or even help the Corvair > crank breaking problem... > > I'm not an expert on nitriding, but I've been around it a little in my > time... I used to machine plastic ejection molds and tooling dies... > There > are what's called "ejector pins" that the tops of mold and dies slide up > and > down on to make the 2 halves meet properly... > If you can imagine a 4 legged table sitting on it's top with the 4 legs in > the air, then cut a piece of plywood with 4 holes in it to fit over the > legs > and slide up and down, this is what it's equivalent to... The legs would > be > the ejector pins. (I've attached a picture of a MUD Die) We used to have > these pins nitrided all the time... Nitriding, at least what the > nitriders > told me, is that it doesn't make the part more resistant to breakage, but > it > makes it tougher from a wear perspective... I know on molds and dies, the > top half sliding up and down through every cycle on the ejector pins, they > would wear, then the 2 halves wouldn't match up right...they'd > mis-match... > We'd nitride these pins to make their outer surface harder to resist > wear...they'd still break as easily as they were before nitriding, if side > load was applied, their outter surface just didn't wear as fast... You > can > hit a nitrided part with a file and the file will just bounce off it...but > keep on filing, and in a few thousandths, you'll be through the nitriding > and the steel will be soft as ever... SO, > from my limited experience and knowledge of nitriding, if I was having a > crankshaft that was wearing out quickly on the bearing journals, nitriding > seems like a good cure..but to use as a cure for breakage from side load, > it > just doesn't make sense to me... In my thinking, you'd need a flange and > a > thrust bearing to handle side loads... Anyone out there care to elaborate > more on nitriding?? > > Maybe I'm way off base here... Don't know... I will say that at this time > I > plan on using a WW Corvair conversion in my XL when the time comes... Good > lord, I'm just working on the wings right now! ;-) > > Just my .02 worth... > > Randy > XL Wings - Plans Only > http://www.n344rb.com > Do Not Archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:21 PM > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" >> >> William Wynne's own crank had stress fractures in it. This was a standard >> conversion. I'm sure that's what convinced him to recommend nitriding the >> cranks. I did not have a prop extension, or horsepower upgrade and yet >> my >> crank broke. My crank had not been nitrided either, but then I had never >> heard of a crank failure on a Corvair until about a year or so ago. I >> figured since they have been flying Corvairs on Peitenpols since the >> 60's, >> I didn't see any rush. Since my crank break, I have come to realize that >> we >> have been flying these engines much harder than the Pietenpol guys do. >> >> Possible reasons for my crank break: >> Case being "sloppy". I wish I had the measuring equipment to verify this >> one way or another. >> Prop out of balance. Maybe. I know I'm going to get it dynamically >> balanced when I get it flying again. >> Max performance takeoffs. Nearly every flight began that way. >> Cruising at 3100 rpm or higher. I almost always pushed the engine hard. I >> think WW usually cruises at 2900 rpm. >> >> I'm not completely convinced about the nitriding, because it is a >> hardening >> process. If one where to pose the question of whether or not to >> substitute >> grade 8 bolts for AN bolts, the argument would normally be that grade 8 >> have been hardened and are more brittle than an AN bolt . It would not be >> able to take the bending moment that an AN bolt could. For some reason it >> must be different on a crankshaft, but I don't understand why. However, >> since the experts have determined that nitriding is the way to go, I will >> follow. >> >> Something we all need to do regardless of the engine we fly behind: When >> you hear of a crash, engine failure, or other incident, play the scenario >> out in your mind. Maybe even while sitting in the cockpit. Plan what you >> could do to survive the situation. Look at your plane and see if you >> need >> to change something to keep the same problem from occurring to you. Maybe >> inspect the parts that may have contributed to the incident. >> >> Randy Stout >> n282rs"at"earthlink.net >> www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 >> >> >> >>> [Original Message] >>> From: Tom Farin >>> To: >>> Date: 7/7/2006 8:34:40 AM >>> Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 78 Msgs - 07/06/06 >>> >> >>> >>> The most widely talked about issue relating to Corvair engines in the >> last two years is the four recent crank failures. Keep in mind the >> Corvair >> engine has been flying in aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in >> 1960. There was a tremendous amount of dicussion at Corvaircraft, on >> William Wynne's site, and at Mark Langsford's site. Mark had one of the >> four failures. The consensus seems to be that in all four cases the >> installation deviated from the instructions in Wynne's manual - prop >> extensions, horsepower upgrades, etc. - in a way that placed additional >> stress on the crank. In spite of that both Mark and William put >> substantial time into examining the causes of the failures. In spite of >> the fact there are no known crank failures on installations per the WW >> manual, WW is now recommending the crank be Nitrided to give it >> additional >> strength. In spite of a harrowing experience, Mark is again flying with >> a >> stock WW conversion. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:30 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: don't archive!!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Tommy- You left out the Rolls of electrics- Paul Reed Smith. Now, I'm getting out while the getting's good. Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:08 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" > > My first guitar cost $1.50. It was a Kay with a little problem with the > body. I used a knife and gently cut the back off and then used damp > cloths to soften the front and put it back into shape. I traded up to a > well worn Gretsch and then to a Les Paul. I've owned several Fenders over > the years. I think the Les Paul Deluxe is the best guitar ever made. > > There are Gibson's and there are guitars. (Sorry, no Corvairs > (Epiphones), Rotaxes(Rickenbackers), Subaru's (Yahamas), VW's (Peavey)). > My apologies in advance to those who are offended by non-aviation posts. > > These days, with my reduced hearing capacity, I get by with an old Elkhart > (sp) Upright Bass. > > When I'm down around Rayne, Lafayette and Crowley I listen to the bands at > some of the Cajun joints. One of the best meals I had was Wild Duck Gumbo > at the Acadia Parish School Board maintenance shop............ > > So there, I bit, er... gummed. > > Absolutely, Positively, Mr Bowes.... Do Not Archive > > Tommy Walker in Lower Slobovia > > > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of > dredmoody@cox.net > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:15 PM > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Not when I do them! You just need a nicer dentist. > > Ed > > PS: What? No bite on the guitar controversy? I am depressed. > > ---- Zed Smith wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith >> >> A short work week after a pleasant holiday weekend, nice weather, its >> Friday, the Corvair discussion has lost some heat in the last few hours, >> the next weekend is just around the corner......then Ed has to mention a >> root canal. >> >> Take that back, Ed! That's downright unpleasant! > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:29 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building I may be wrong but as best I can tell, the swagging can take place outside the wing, then thread the cables through the lightening holes etc. Any reason that won't work? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:21 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building Personally, I would rig the bellcrank cables before colsing the wing. It is probably possible to to the cable swaging through the access panel, but I felt that it would be a real tight squeeze and a real hassle. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:35 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Where in south Texas Wade? I'm in southwest Louisiana. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Wade Jones To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:40 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Hello Group ,first thanks for the comments/advise on my first post . At that time I had planed to buy a kit and pick it up at the factory in my travel trailer .I have since decided to plans build the 601XL ,this may be optimistic thinking for a 72 year old .However as far as I know I have no medical problems that I am aware of that would hinder my completion .I got the plans a couple of weeks ago and I have completed the wood forms for the tail section ,flaps and ailerons .Today I built my 4' X 12' table and made my first aluminum order from Aircraft Spruce for about half of the airframe .As I said in my earlier post I have been flying a Cont. 0200 powered Soneria for the past 29 years along with my trusty Tripacer .I read every post on this site and I am very pleased to belong to such a great group ,so please bear with me if some of my questions seem too simple . Wade Jones ,Plans # 6464 , South Texas ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:56 AM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: weight of engines? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" The 100 hp Rotax 912 equipped Zodiac XL SLSA that I have for sale has a 591 lb useful load, for comparison. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes Sky Bryce Airport (VG18) Basye, VA www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:59 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz The AMD Zodiac XL claims 520 pounds useful load. It uses the Continental O-200 rather than the Lycoming O-235. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >Isn't the corvair engine about the same weight as a continental >0-200? Wouldn't both reduce the useful load of the 601xl ? What is >the useful load of the factory built LSA with the 0-235 in it? Just >courious. Thanks. Jeff; waiting on wing kit. - ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:36 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building Ed, The cables must be threaded through the holes in the bellcrank, with a thimble. It is not as easy as it sounds! If this is done outside the wing, the bellcrank must be removed from its bracket. I suppose it would be easier to reinstall the bellcrank than to try to do the swaging inside the wing, which means reattaching the control rod to the aileron, also through the access hole. While it is possible, I just found it much easier to do with the wing open. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:08 AM PST US From: "Wade Jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Hi Ed ,I am located in Brazoria 50mi South of Houston .I will look up Rayne La. and see how close we are .As you can tell by my post I am just getting started ,however when I start a project I put many hours a day into it. My hanger is in my back yard and I am retired . Wade Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Where in south Texas Wade? I'm in southwest Louisiana. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / wings Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Wade Jones To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:40 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Hello Group ,first thanks for the comments/advise on my first post . At that time I had planed to buy a kit and pick it up at the factory in my travel trailer .I have since decided to plans build the 601XL ,this may be optimistic thinking for a 72 year old .However as far as I know I have no medical problems that I am aware of that would hinder my completion .I got the plans a couple of weeks ago and I have completed the wood forms for the tail section ,flaps and ailerons .Today I built my 4' X 12' table and made my first aluminum order from Aircraft Spruce for about half of the airframe .As I said in my earlier post I have been flying a Cont. 0200 powered Soneria for the past 29 years along with my trusty Tripacer .I read every post on this site and I am very pleased to belong to such a great group ,so please bear with me if some of my questions seem too simple . Wade Jones ,Plans # 6464 , South Texas ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:25 AM PST US From: William Mileski Subject: Zenith-List: Yaw oscillation, 701 Hi all, I just sort of solved an odd problem I was having with my CH701 currentl y under flight test with 14 hours on it, and hope this may serve someone else at some point. At every take-off I was getting an oscillation in the yaw axis, a few se conds after liftoff, for anywhwere from 2 to 5 seconds, which went away if a) I continued climb normally, b) I dropped from 5450 rpm (max) to 5 200 or lower. It is felt in the whole airframe, and the cowl looked like it was visibly displacing a half inch as the aircraft "wobbled" in yaw at approximately 3 or 4 cycles per sec. Airspeed is accelerating betwee n 50 and 60 mph at this time. The oscillation is mild, more annoying tha n concerning. It could not be stopped by pitching up or down slightly, or changing rud der position slightly. No perceptible vibration is felt in the pedals. My rudder cable tension seems possibly slightly on the high side, and I also tried pressing on both pedals during climb, with no change. After adding another pair of dzus fittings at the cowling at the bottom of the firewall, verifying blade pitch and minimum vibration, without an y change, it occurred to me that the main gear might be out of balance, and the wheels are spinning down from a 40+mph rpm during this time. Alt hough I don't feel any out-of-roundness or vibration from the gear durin g the takeoff run, I tried pressing the brakes immediately after liftoff . I made four takeoffs today pressing the brakes after liftoff, and got no ne of the oscillation, which has been very consistent prior to today. So either the wheels and tires spinning down were the culprit, or I am w rong about my rudder tension, and by braking I'm adding more rudder cabl e tension (through slop and flexure of the nose-wheel steering hardware) than I did before when trying this by pushing only on the pedals (no br akes). I'll try more with pedal pressure without brakes again, too, to s ee if I can figure out what's happening. But at least it's under contro l for now. Sorry for the longwinded explanation, but it seemed like there was a lot to explain for anyone interested. Bill Mileski N701MW Ledyard, CT ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:24 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wing Building Ed / Jay, If you're like me, when you're in wing building mode you don't want to think about swaging cables, hooking up lights, etc. You want to see that wing get built! Just thread a length of 1/8" braided nylon rope thru the holes and tie it off to the bell crank. It will easy to attach the swaged end to the rope and pull thru at a later time and life will be good. Of course, it you wish to do the connects now, have at it. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Ed, The cables must be threaded through the holes in the bellcrank, with a thimble. It is not as easy as it sounds! If this is done outside the wing, the bellcrank must be removed from its bracket. I suppose it would be easier to reinstall the bellcrank than to try to do the swaging inside the wing, which means reattaching the control rod to the aileron, also through the access hole. While it is possible, I just found it much easier to do with the wing open. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:13 AM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Valentine" On 7/8/06, Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > Ed, The cables must be threaded through the holes in the bellcrank, with a > thimble. horsecshoe-type connector (for lack of a proper word) and the connector actually goes through the bellcrank. 1) Is that correct, and 2) Does that make it easier to rig the cables later through the access hole? Michael do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:48 AM PST US From: "wscribb" Subject: Zenith-List: Has WW been seen lately? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "wscribb" Anybody know where William is hiding? I have been trying to contact him over the past month via email and telephone. He isn't returning telephone calls or answering email. Anybody have another phone number for him (direct), other than the 478-0396? I placed an order in Sept 2005, and am still waiting for my Stainless Intake, Stainless Exhaust and Spinner Bulkhead. This is terrible customer service. TIA Bill Cribb 601XL / Corvair (still waiting for parts) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:48 AM PST US From: "Christopher Smith" Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair decision made. What I think I'm going to do is buy the WW manual & a core engine....I planing on a Jabiru 3300 but I am 3 to 5 years away from needing it. So, if in the mean time the Corvair is proven that it was a strong engine all along I'll be ready to go with it. -- Christopher W. E. Smith fly1m1 http://ch-601xl.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:48 AM PST US From: Dan Lykowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Lykowski Dave, Any pickup that will output a digital pulse will work with the Dynon unit. I have spoken with WW a couple of times and I know his opinion on glass. He makes some valid points about being able to short to the ignition etc. But, as an experimenter I find this to be a challenge that needs to be solved, not given up on because the expert said so. He became the expert by experimenting and by working hard. I will be presenting this challenge to my fellow engineers on Monday to see what we can come up with to isolate the tach from the Dynon. I can't promise any results but I will be pushing the issue since I plan on having an all Dynon panel in my Corvair powered XL. (With a few backups of course.) Again, if you guys are really interested in using a Dynon, the best way to get support for it is to call and to e-mail. It currently is not officially supported because there just isn't a lot of demand for it. We are willing to help out anyone who wants to give it a go. Thanks Dan Lykowski Software Engineer Dynon Avionics --- Dave Thompson wrote: > Wow! What happened? > > > > Guys! Guys! > > > > I'm sorry that I started this argument! > > > > First of all, I'm the first to admit that I don't > know much about aircraft. > That's why I am on this list. I don't even have an > airframe yet. > > > > As for the Corvair engine, Yes, that's what I intend > to use. Not a defense, > just a fact. Why a Corvair? I had a '64 Corvair car > in High School and the > price looked good. As I researched the engine, I > became impressed with the > research & development that is being done on the > Corvair / 601XL > combination. I also was impressed with the people > doing it. What I learned > was that I was personally willing to accept the > level of dependability it > will provide, which by the way, flight testing has > proven to be very high. > If I follow the experts' advice, I can expect to > have a powerful and > dependable power plant. The lower price allowed me > to afford to build the > aircraft that all of us here love: A Chris Heintz > design. > > > > Don't get me wrong, Risk management is foremost in > my mind. We must ALL > decide for our selves our own level of Risk. That's > why I'm not building a > wood & fabric plane. It's not within MY PERSONAL > level of risk. It's also > why I didn't make a third parachute jump back in the > 70's. > > > > My goal is to get in the air. I want to someday have > the pride of saying "I > built this airplane!" it will also be cool to say > "and the engine too!" > > > > As for the other engines, I feel they ALL have their > good points and bad > points. That's the glory of homebuilding! We ALL get > to CHOOSE what we > build, hang up front and stick in the panel. And > face it: most of us have to > consider the size of out wallets. > > > > I don't care if you hang a cooling fan motor on some > sticks and bed sheets > and painted it hot pink. (Let's not start a debate > over colors :) If you > built it yourself, have the nerve to fly your > creation and are proud of it, > I'm as happy FOR you as you are. I consider you a > brother in the quest for > the sky. > > > > I joined this group to learn as much as I could. > I've posted a few questions > and answered some too. Thank you all for the great > information I have > received. Let's not debate the choices of others or > put down other products > because they weren't YOUR choice. Let's just try to > be as helpful and > technically accurate as we can. > > > > Now, with that said: > > > > I mentioned the ignition system because it was > relevant to the original > question; connecting a Dynon to a Corvair. The > information that I gave about > a Tach possibly shorting out an Ignition system came > from William Wynne. He > has the most experience with Corvair flight engines. > That's why I plan to > follow his advice. Whatever engine you choose, you > should seek out the > experts and consider their advice. Anyway, if you > want to know more about > the flight Corvair ignition or anything else about > the engine, check out > William's website. www.flycorvair.com > . You > will get the correct flight tested information. With > a quick search I found > some statements about tach hookup. Look about half > way down for the question > entitled: "Tachometer coil pickup". > http://www.flycorvair.com/email1204.html > Also check out this link a little past half way > down. He shows a picture of > the tach pickup on his 601XL. > http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar1005.html > > > > After you read the above websites, and you feel that > direct connection of a > tach is within your comfort zone of reliability, > then go for it. It just > seems to me that if someone more qualified than me > says not to do it, I > won't. If you don't know the options, you can't > make an educated decision. > I think that's the intent of the original question; > to get all the > information. > > > > I put a very cheap tach on my mustang when I was in > high school. Several > months later, it failed, shorted out and disabled > the ignition system. I > don't want the same thing to happen to my airplane. > > > > The debate is not coil/points ignition over magneto, > that's a debate for the > Engine List. The point is if you use a dual ignition > distributor on a > Corvair flight engine, the designer has tested and > has said to keep the tach > completely divorced from the ignition. His research > and testing strongly > suggests some sort of pickup to count teeth on the > starter gear. I read > someplace that the MSD inductive pickup for > tachometer might work but I > haven't found anyone who has tried it. I am not > really qualified to suggest > a pickup that would be compatible with the Dynon > units. I hope that by the > time I get ready for my panel someone has come up > with a resolution to the > issue. > > > > I hope I didn't offend anybody or sound too crabby, > > > > Dave Thompson > > dave.thompson@verizon.net > > Do not archive > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:25 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair decision made. Chris, A wise decision. Though my Corvair engine is built, I too am a couple years from flying and waiting to see how the crank nitriding issue gets resolved thru further testing and flight testing. Plus, there may be other improvements by then. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Do not archive What I think I'm going to do is buy the WW manual & a core engine....I planing on a Jabiru 3300 but I am 3 to 5 years away from needing it. So, if in the mean time the Corvair is proven that it was a strong engine all along I'll be ready to go with it. -- Christopher W. E. Smith fly1m1 http://ch-601xl.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:52 AM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" The thimble goes inside the "loop" that the cable makes. There is an item, I think you are referring to as a "horseshoe type connector" that is called a cable shackle that actually gets bolted to the aileron bellcrank that the cable and thimble are "looped" through... Randy Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:01 AM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Valentine" > > > On 7/8/06, Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: >> Ed, The cables must be threaded through the holes in the bellcrank, with >> a >> thimble. > > horsecshoe-type connector (for lack of a proper word) and the > connector actually goes through the bellcrank. 1) Is that correct, > and 2) Does that make it easier to rig the cables later through the > access hole? > > Michael > > do not archive > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:00 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Has WW been seen lately? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> I've been wanting those same parts for over a year, but they have never showed up on the website price list, so I assumed not yet available. How did you arrange to get on the waiting list at what prices? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 10:25 AM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "wscribb" > > Anybody know where William is hiding? I have been trying to contact him > over the past month via email and telephone. He isn't returning telephone > calls or answering email. Anybody have another phone number for him > (direct), other than the 478-0396? > > I placed an order in Sept 2005, and am still waiting for my Stainless > Intake, Stainless Exhaust and Spinner Bulkhead. This is terrible customer > service. > > TIA > > Bill Cribb > 601XL / Corvair (still waiting for parts) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:57 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Dan, I don't know how the Dynon is typically hooked up to ignition parts to get tachometer function. However, I do know you can get a really ugly signal by wrapping a few turns of wire around a spark plug wire to pick up an A/C signal. The real problem from that point is to condition the signal to be compatible with the Dynon input. This will probably require an appropriate diode to rectify and clamp the signal and a simple resistor divider to reduce the voltage. It may be necessary to add an amplifier (op-amp possibly) to further condition the signal and make a nice square digital wave form. It would help to have the Dynon input circuit diagram and any specification they may have for the input signal. Since the coupling between the circuit described above and the ignition is inductive I don't see how it could possible impact the ignition function. I suppose it could overload it if you draw too much power from the spark plug wire, but you wouldn't need more than a tiny amount of the energy in the spark plug wire to make your signal. This all requires a decent oscilloscope and a little electronics design knowledge. If you don't properly condition the signal you run the risk of damaging the Dynon input circuit. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage Recovering digital circuit designer At 08:33 AM 7/8/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan Lykowski > >Dave, > Any pickup that will output a digital pulse will work >with the Dynon unit. I have spoken with WW a couple of >times and I know his opinion on glass. He makes some >valid points about being able to short to the ignition >etc. But, as an experimenter I find this to be a >challenge that needs to be solved, not given up on >because the expert said so. He became the expert by >experimenting and by working hard. > I will be presenting this challenge to my fellow >engineers on Monday to see what we can come up with to >isolate the tach from the Dynon. I can't promise any >results but I will be pushing the issue since I plan >on having an all Dynon panel in my Corvair powered XL. >(With a few backups of course.) > Again, if you guys are really interested in using a >Dynon, the best way to get support for it is to call >and to e-mail. It currently is not officially >supported because there just isn't a lot of demand for >it. We are willing to help out anyone who wants to >give it a go. > >Thanks >Dan Lykowski >Software Engineer >Dynon Avionics > >-- > - ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:04 AM PST US From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Zenith-List: Too many messages --> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren Wise man said: "WOW!! Todays digest had 78 messages and most were long and angry. Take a breath, folks. Go out and rivet something." AMEN Stan-Tired of deleting angry messages ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:40 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building Michael - IMHO, no. Try it once. The cable is stiff and "springy." the cable must be snug to the thimble and the Nicopress must be snug to the thimble. All this must be held firmly, assuring the proper cable end extension, while crimping the Nicopress. It definitely requires two hands, if not three, and as much room as possible, for the Nicopress tool, elbows, etc. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:56 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Has WW been seen lately? I agree I tried leaving messages but he never answered. Emails went unanswered....I wonder if I started duplacating his parts and selling them how fast he would get in touch. He needs to hire someone to take messages for him. Jeff 601 XL going to the hanger do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:52 AM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Valentine" Thanks Randy and Jay - I am getting close to closing up my first wing and, like Gary, I don't really want to do this at the moment. Perhaps a couple more questions will help me understand more of what is at stake: 1) Can't you make the loop in the cable outside of the wing at any time, any place? If so, then you can just feed the cable into the closed wing with a 1x2 or something. 2) Can't you then slide the pre-made loop into the cable shackle and just bolt the shackle to the bellcrank through the access hole? Then the only thing you are actually doing through the access hole is tightening the shackle bolts. Am I still missing something? **And, why doesn't Zenith have any drawings/guides/instructions on these steps?** Thanks, Michael do not archive On 7/8/06, Randy Bryant wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" > > The thimble goes inside the "loop" that the cable makes. There is an item, > I think you are referring to as a "horseshoe type connector" that is called > a cable shackle that actually gets bolted to the aileron bellcrank that the > cable and thimble are "looped" through... > > Randy > Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:49 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building Randy, I don't think the gap in the shackle will open enough to get the cable loop & thimble in after they are swaged. As I remember, the loop & thimble had to be formed on the shackle while crimping the Nicopress sleeve. And, yes, this could be done after the wing is closed, the cable threaded thru the lightening holes and the shackels bolted to the bellcrank. This is just vastly easier to do with the wing open, and in fact, easier with the bellcrank out of the wing. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:24 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Has WW been seen lately? They may be concentrating on finishing the 701/Vair to fly it to Oshkosh. Any one hear how that project is progressing? Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Has WW been seen lately? I agree I tried leaving messages but he never answered. Emails went unanswered....I wonder if I started duplacating his parts and selling them how fast he would get in touch. He needs to hire someone to take messages for him. Jeff 601 XL going to the hanger do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:55 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Help on XL fuselage To those who have "been there, done that" I am working on the forward fuselage. I have installed the crimped vertical angle that intersects with the back side of the heel support 6B8-8; and the first and second horizontal angles that are between the vertical angle and the firewall. The Photo Guide shows the third (lowest) horizontal angel to be installed even with the turned-up cabin floor, with the outstanding leg to the bottom. This covers up the pre-drilled holes in the turned up part of the cabin floor. The Photo Guide says to drill the holes from the inside, but I can't now see the pre-drilled holes with the horizontal angle in the way. I considered drilling the holes through the turned up part of the cabin floor into the side skin, clecoing them, then back drilling from the outside through the angle. But I think the clecoes would be in the way. Am I missing something? How do you do this operation? I also sent this to ZAC, but probably won't hear from them for several days and I would like to keep moving. Jay in Dallas Do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:32 PM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building Yeah, I don't think it will either, I was just responding to the message that left out the shackle... What I was reading, was to attach the cable/thimble directly to the bellcrank... I was just giving a basic order of bellcrank, shackle, then the cable actually attaches to the shackle, not directly to the bellcrank... Thanks! Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 3:03 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building Randy, I don't think the gap in the shackle will open enough to get the cable loop & thimble in after they are swaged. As I remember, the loop & thimble had to be formed on the shackle while crimping the Nicopress sleeve. And, yes, this could be done after the wing is closed, the cable threaded thru the lightening holes and the shackels bolted to the bellcrank. This is just vastly easier to do with the wing open, and in fact, easier with the bellcrank out of the wing. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:32 PM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help on XL fuselage Jay- I think you are on the right track. I cannot speak from direct experience since my floor was not predrilled. I would think that you should drill the floor to the side skin using the predrilled holes, clecoe the two pieces together from the outside. I would get my hortizontal angle cut to the correct length, and pre drill one hole in the end at the correct 10 mm distance from the end and clecoe it to the corresponding hole you have drilled thru the floor and side skin. Remove the clecoes from the pre-drilled holes except for the end one and mark the other end of the l angle where the other end predrilled hole is, drill a hole in the l angle and clecoe it. You have both ends clecoed now. Put a few clecoes back into the side skin and the floor predrilled holes to keep them lined up and drill from the outside one at a time thru the holes you already drilled, clecoing the three surfaces as you go. Another way might be to cut your horizontal angle to the correct length, place it back of the floor predrilled holes. and drill thru the predrilled holes into the angle clecoing as you go. You could then put the angle in front of the floor and cleco it to the floor. Then use these holes to drill thru the side skin. Good luck- Al Young 601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 2:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Help on XL fuselage To those who have "been there, done that" I am working on the forward fuselage. I have installed the crimped vertical angle that intersects with the back side of the heel support 6B8-8; and the first and second horizontal angles that are between the vertical angle and the firewall. The Photo Guide shows the third (lowest) horizontal angel to be installed even with the turned-up cabin floor, with the outstanding leg to the bottom. This covers up the pre-drilled holes in the turned up part of the cabin floor. The Photo Guide says to drill the holes from the inside, but I can't now see the pre-drilled holes with the horizontal angle in the way. I considered drilling the holes through the turned up part of the cabin floor into the side skin, clecoing them, then back drilling from the outside through the angle. But I think the clecoes would be in the way. Am I missing something? How do you do this operation? I also sent this to ZAC, but probably won't hear from them for several days and I would like to keep moving. Jay in Dallas Do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:17 PM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Yaw oscillation, 701 Bill, Thanks, that is one for me to file in my list of things to know about. I had not considered that happening........ Boy, that first lift off is going to be exciting....... Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of William Mileski Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 9:39 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Yaw oscillation, 701 Hi all, I just sort of solved an odd problem I was having with my CH701 currently under flight test with 14 hours on it, and hope this may serve someone else at some point. At every take-off I was getting an oscillation in the yaw axis, a few seconds after liftoff, for anywhwere from 2 to 5 seconds, which went away if a) I continued climb normally, b) I dropped from 5450 rpm (max) to 5200 or lower. It is felt in the whole airframe, and the cowl looked like it was visibly displacing a half inch as the aircraft "wobbled" in yaw at approximately 3 or 4 cycles per sec. Airspeed is accelerating between 50 and 60 mph at this time. The oscillation is mild, more annoying than concerning. It could not be stopped by pitching up or down slightly, or changing rudder position slightly. No perceptible vibration is felt in the pedals. My rudder cable tension seems possibly slightly on the high side, and I also tried pressing on both pedals during climb, with no change. After adding another pair of dzus fittings at the cowling at the bottom of the firewall, verifying blade pitch and minimum vibration, without any change, it occurred to me that the main gear might be out of balance, and the wheels are spinning down from a 40+mph rpm during this time. Although I don't feel any out-of-roundness or vibration from the gear during the takeoff run, I tried pressing the brakes immediately after liftoff. I made four takeoffs today pressing the brakes after liftoff, and got none of the oscillation, which has been very consistent prior to today. So either the wheels and tires spinning down were the culprit, or I am wrong about my rudder tension, and by braking I'm adding more rudder cable tension (through slop and flexure of the nose-wheel steering hardware) than I did before when trying this by pushing only on the pedals (no brakes). I'll try more with pedal pressure without brakes again, too, to see if I can figure out what's happening. But at least it's under control for now. Sorry for the longwinded explanation, but it seemed like there was a lot to explain for anyone interested. Bill Mileski N701MW Ledyard, CT ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:30 PM PST US From: "Frank Derfler" Subject: Zenith-List: Pushing back a 601XL I'm considering buying an AMD-manufactured Zodiak 601XL. (Yes, I know the Continental isn't as light as the Rotax or as smooth as the Jabaru, but my local A&Ps don't acknowledge the legitimacy of either one --Hey, it's what I've got to work with!) I went for a ride yesterday and enjoyed it, but now the simple "questions that I should have asked" come up.. 1. Tow bar? The two of us pushed the Zodiak back into the hanger by hand without a tow bar. The owner "steered" by pushing down the tail. I will always have to push my airplane back and usually by myself. Is there an appropriate tow bar for pushing back and where does it attach? 2. Tie down? Any hard-earned pieces of 601 XL tie-down wisdom out there? Aileron locks? Any extra places to grab onto? The tail tie-down doesn't look too strong, is it possible to "tow" the airplane into a hangar using the tail tie-down? 3. Canopy opening.. is there a pattern somewhere for a block of wood or PVC or something that holds the canopy open while taxiing? Somebody must have designed a nice "clamp on" holder-opener! Thanks! -- FJD -- Frank Derfler See my views and reviews at www.derfler.biz See my information for pilots at www.flyinflorida.com ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:35 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Yaw oscillation, 701 William, I had a similar experience in a 172 I did some training in. It only seemed to happen when I would do touch-n-gos.Too much speed on the runway before "going" again. :) When I asked the CFI about the vibration he knew exactly what it was and put on the brakes. I guess he was so used to it he didn't notice it any more. In my case it was only a vibration and didn't really have any impact on flight characteristics. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN Corvair core acquired. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of William Mileski Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 9:39 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Yaw oscillation, 701 Hi all, I just sort of solved an odd problem I was having with my CH701 currently under flight test with 14 hours on it, and hope this may serve someone else at some point. At every take-off I was getting an oscillation in the yaw axis, a few seconds after liftoff, for anywhwere from 2 to 5 seconds, which went away if a) I continued climb normally, b) I dropped from 5450 rpm (max) to 5200 or lower. It is felt in the whole airframe, and the cowl looked like it was visibly displacing a half inch as the aircraft "wobbled" in yaw at approximately 3 or 4 cycles per sec. Airspeed is accelerating between 50 and 60 mph at this time. The oscillation is mild, more annoying than concerning. It could not be stopped by pitching up or down slightly, or changing rudder position slightly. No perceptible vibration is felt in the pedals. My rudder cable tension seems possibly slightly on the high side, and I also tried pressing on both pedals during climb, with no change. After adding another pair of dzus fittings at the cowling at the bottom of the firewall, verifying blade pitch and minimum vibration, without any change, it occurred to me that the main gear might be out of balance, and the wheels are spinning down from a 40+mph rpm during this time. Although I don't feel any out-of-roundness or vibration from the gear during the takeoff run, I tried pressing the brakes immediately after liftoff. I made four takeoffs today pressing the brakes after liftoff, and got none of the oscillation, which has been very consistent prior to today. So either the wheels and tires spinning down were the culprit, or I am wrong about my rudder tension, and by braking I'm adding more rudder cable tension (through slop and flexure of the nose-wheel steering hardware) than I did before when trying this by pushing only on the pedals (no brakes). I'll try more with pedal pressure without brakes again, too, to see if I can figure out what's happening. But at least it's under control for now. Sorry for the longwinded explanation, but it seemed like there was a lot to explain for anyone interested. Bill Mileski N701MW Ledyard, CT ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:45 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help on XL fuselage Al, Thanks for the reply. The first method might work. I would still be concerned about the "stand-off" effect of the clecoes. I thought about the second method, but the angle would have to be reversed, end for end after drilling and the pre-drilled holes would have to be symmetrical. I don't trust the symmetry of ZAC's holes. If there were no pre-drilled holes, this would be a "no brainer", but in trying to make it easier for the kit builder, ZAC has created a real problem. Thanks - Jay in Dallas Do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:22 PM PST US From: "Ashcraft, Keith -AES" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Yaw oscillation, 701 All, I guess I thought everybody was taught that way. That was one of the first things I learned when I was flying, was to tap the brakes to stop the tires from spinning. Keith CH701 8% scratch -- no engine decision yet, it keeps down on the negative e-mails:) N 38.9947 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' ************************************************************************* -----Original Message----- Sent: Sat 7/8/2006 4:07 PM William, I had a similar experience in a 172 I did some training in. It only seemed to happen when I would do touch-n-gos.Too much speed on the runway before "going" again. :) When I asked the CFI about the vibration he knew exactly what it was and put on the brakes. I guess he was so used to it he didn't notice it any more. In my case it was only a vibration and didn't really have any impact on flight characteristics. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN Corvair core acquired. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of William Mileski Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 9:39 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Yaw oscillation, 701 Hi all, I just sort of solved an odd problem I was having with my CH701 currently under flight test with 14 hours on it, and hope this may serve someone else at some point. At every take-off I was getting an oscillation in the yaw axis, a few seconds after liftoff, for anywhwere from 2 to 5 seconds, which went away if a) I continued climb normally, b) I dropped from 5450 rpm (max) to 5200 or lower. It is felt in the whole airframe, and the cowl looked like it was visibly displacing a half inch as the aircraft "wobbled" in yaw at approximately 3 or 4 cycles per sec. Airspeed is accelerating between 50 and 60 mph at this time. The oscillation is mild, more annoying than concerning. It could not be stopped by pitching up or down slightly, or changing rudder position slightly. No perceptible vibration is felt in the pedals. My rudder cable tension seems possibly slightly on the high side, and I also tried pressing on both pedals during climb, with no change. After adding another pair of dzus fittings at the cowling at the bottom of the firewall, verifying blade pitch and minimum vibration, without any change, it occurred to me that the main gear might be out of balance, and the wheels are spinning down from a 40+mph rpm during this time. Although I don't feel any out-of-roundness or vibration from the gear during the takeoff run, I tried pressing the brakes immediately after liftoff. I made four takeoffs today pressing the brakes after liftoff, and got none of the oscillation, which has been very consistent prior to today. So either the wheels and tires spinning down were the culprit, or I am wrong about my rudder tension, and by braking I'm adding more rudder cable tension (through slop and flexure of the nose-wheel steering hardware) than I did before when trying this by pushing only on the pedals (no brakes). I'll try more with pedal pressure without brakes again, too, to see if I can figure out what's happening. But at least it's under control for now. Sorry for the longwinded explanation, but it seemed like there was a lot to explain for anyone interested. Bill Mileski N701MW Ledyard, CT ************************************ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intende d solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If yo u have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and d o not necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mai l. ************************************ ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:28 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: broken distributor shaft --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" It's kind of like the family member that is sleeping with his sister, nobody likes to talk about it. It's humor folks, lighten up! do not archive --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris I have nevwr heard of a broken distributer shaft. - ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:17 PM PST US From: David Wright Subject: Zenith-List: Scratch build - pre drill holes before bending? --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Wright All First posting from a newbie scratch builder I have built the tail for my 601XL from a kit from CZAW and have decided to scratch build the rest of the plane. I have taken delivery of the sheet aluminium and am now in the process of marking out the skins for the flaps and ailerons. My questions is for those who have already done this is - should I pre-drill the holes while the aluminium is still flat or should I wait until it is bent? Any suggestions gratefully received Dave 601XL plans built - wings - England ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:12 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Pushing back a 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Frank, I've made a tow bar attachment for the front fork that doubles as a stop limit if the bungee gives way. There's a drawing of it on my site if you'd like to make it yourself. I've also got several of them if you're interested for $35.00. See link below, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travelstop.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-&-ground-handli.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-and-stear-link.gif I think the tie downs are fine if you anchor them well. I'd use 4 point tie downs if you were expecting winds in excess of 40-mph. I used a block of foam when I first began taxi testing in 90-degree heat. Could have been more imaginative as it blew away when the canopy was opened further a week later. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Frank Derfler wrote: > I'm considering buying an AMD-manufactured Zodiak 601XL. (Yes, I know > the Continental isn't as light as the Rotax or as smooth as the > Jabaru, but my local A&Ps don't acknowledge the legitimacy of either > one --Hey, it's what I've got to work with!) I went for a ride > yesterday and enjoyed it, but now the simple "questions that I should > have asked" come up.. > > 1. Tow bar? The two of us pushed the Zodiak back into the hanger by > hand without a tow bar. The owner "steered" by pushing down the > tail. I will always have to push my airplane back and usually by > myself. Is there an appropriate tow bar for pushing back and where > does it attach? > > 2. Tie down? Any hard-earned pieces of 601 XL tie-down wisdom out > there? Aileron locks? Any extra places to grab onto? The tail > tie-down doesn't look too strong, is it possible to "tow" the airplane > into a hangar using the tail tie-down? > > 3. Canopy opening.. is there a pattern somewhere for a block of wood > or PVC or something that holds the canopy open while taxiing? > Somebody must have designed a nice "clamp on" holder-opener! > > Thanks! -- FJD > > -- > Frank Derfler > See my views and reviews at www.derfler.biz > See my information for pilots at www.flyinflorida.com > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:25 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scratch build - pre drill holes before --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi David, Welcome aboard. I would recommend waiting to drill holes until the underlying structure is built. That way you can put the holes where they match the existing structure instead of the theoretical location the prints indicate they should be. The little differences between ideal and reality can add up. Paul XL Fuselage At 04:24 PM 7/8/2006, you wrote: >First posting from a newbie scratch builder > >I have built the tail for my 601XL from a kit from CZAW and have >decided to scratch build the rest of the plane. >I have taken delivery of the sheet aluminium and am now in the >process of marking out the skins for the flaps and ailerons. >My questions is for those who have already done this is - should I >pre-drill the holes while the aluminium is still flat or should I >wait until it is bent? > >Any suggestions gratefully received > > >Dave >601XL plans built - wings - England ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:59 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building The cables are not threaded through the holes in the bellcrank. The cables attach to the bellcrank by means of cable shackles. If I recall correctly, the cable shackle can be inserted through the cable loop and thimble after it's swaged although it is easier to thread the cable through before swaging. I installed the thimble and shackle then threaded the cable through the sleeve and shackle, pulled it tight and then clamped it with a small set of vice grips to hold it tight while I made the first crimp in the sleeve. Then just before I installed the wings, I pulled the swaged ends of the cables out into the wings with pieces of rope that I had threaded through the wings with the help of a broom handle and tape. After I had the wings attached and the outer ends of the cables attached to the bellcranks, I cut the cables to length and swaged the inboard ends behind the seats. -------------- Original message ---------------------- > Ed, The cables must be threaded through the holes in the bellcrank, with a > thimble. It is not as easy as it sounds! If this is done outside the wing, the > bellcrank must be removed from its bracket. I suppose it would be easier to > reinstall the bellcrank than to try to do the swaging inside the wing, which > means reattaching the control rod to the aileron, also through the access hole. > While it is possible, I just found it much easier to do with the wing open. > > Jay in Dallas -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive Content-Type: Multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29054_1152405628_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29054_1152405628_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, The cables must be threaded thr ough the holes in the bellcrank, with a thimble.  It is not as easy as it sounds! If this is done outside the wing, the bellcrank must be removed f rom its bracket.  I suppose it would be easier to reinstall the bellcra nk than to try to do the swaging inside the wing, which means reattaching th e control rod to the aileron, also through the access hole. While it is poss ible, I just found it much easier to do with the wing open.

Jay in Dallas --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29054_1152405628_1-- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:39 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Pushing back a 601XL 1. It's not too difficult to push back a Zodiac alone. You grab hold of the prop and push sideways on the nose in the direction you want the tail to go as you push it back. 3. At first I made a canopy prop out of a piece of 1 by 2 by cutting a notch on one end that fit over the latch pin and carving down the other end to fit into the latch mechanism in the canopy frame. this worked well enough to keep the canopy partway open during taxi but every once in a while a gust of wind from behind would try to flip the canopy open and my prop stick would do nothing to prevent this. Recently, I went to an auto parts store to the "Help" products section and bought a latch pin the same size as the one on my plane and bought a piece of galvanized strap steel from the hardware store (about 1 1/4 inches wide and 1/8 inch thick). I drilled a hole in one end of the strap to bolt the latch pin through and drilled a hole in the other end that would fit over the latch pin on the canopy rail. Now I just insert the pin on my canopy prop into the canopy latch and put the pin on the canopy rail through the hole in the other end and it stays put. -------------- Original message ---------------------- > I'm considering buying an AMD-manufactured Zodiak 601XL. (Yes, I know the > Continental isn't as light as the Rotax or as smooth as the Jabaru, but my > local A&Ps don't acknowledge the legitimacy of either one --Hey, it's what > I've got to work with!) I went for a ride yesterday and enjoyed it, but > now the simple "questions that I should have asked" come up.. > > 1. Tow bar? The two of us pushed the Zodiak back into the hanger by hand > without a tow bar. The owner "steered" by pushing down the tail. I will > always have to push my airplane back and usually by myself. Is there an > appropriate tow bar for pushing back and where does it attach? > > 2. Tie down? Any hard-earned pieces of 601 XL tie-down wisdom out there? > Aileron locks? Any extra places to grab onto? The tail tie-down doesn't > look too strong, is it possible to "tow" the airplane into a hangar using > the tail tie-down? > > 3. Canopy opening.. is there a pattern somewhere for a block of wood or PVC > or something that holds the canopy open while taxiing? Somebody must have > designed a nice "clamp on" holder-opener! > > Thanks! -- FJD > > -- > Frank Derfler > See my views and reviews at www.derfler.biz > See my information for pilots at www.flyinflorida.com -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive Content-Type: Multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20272_1152407379_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20272_1152407379_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
I'm considering buying an AMD-manufactured Zodiak 601XL.  (Yes, I know the Continental isn't as light as the Rotax or as smooth as the Jabaru, but my local A&Ps don't acknowledge the legitimacy of either one  --Hey, it's what I've got to work with!)   I went for a ride yesterday and enjoyed it, but now the simple "questions that I should have asked" come up..
 
1. Tow bar?  The two of us pushed the Zodiak back into the hanger by hand without a tow bar.  The owner "steered" by pushing down the tail.  I will always have to push my airplane back and usually by myself.  Is there an appropriate tow bar for pushing back and where does it attach?
 
2. Tie down?  Any hard-earned pieces of 601 XL tie-down wisdom out there?  Aileron locks?  Any extra places to grab onto?  The tail tie-down doesn't look too strong, is it possible to "tow" the airplane into a hangar using the tail tie-down? 
 
3. Canopy opening..  is there a pattern somewhere for a block of wood or PVC or something that holds the canopy open while taxiing?   Somebody must have designed a nice "clamp on" holder-opener! 
 
Thanks!  -- FJD

--
Frank Derfler
See my views and reviews at www.derfler.biz
See my information for pilots at www.flyinflorida.com
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20272_1152407379_1-- ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:01 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Brian is right on track. The correct part would be AS & S part No. MS20667. It's a swaged on fork end that passes over the bell crank and merely gets an AN Bolt with a hole for a cotter pin thru a castle nut, ie: AN3-8. The best, cheapest, correct way to cut aircraft cable is with a cold chisel. That's hard to do when the cable is in place. You can do what you want, but it seems easiest to me to run the rope thru the wing, close the wing up, finish the airframe, mount the wing and tail empanage, then measure all the cables you will need. This way you can easily build them on your work bench or order them made to length. BTW, the other end gets the same part, with the addition of the correct turnbuckle - safety wired. I am building the HDS, not the XL, and have a different aileron configuration, but it still uses a bell crank. Nor have I looked that far into the plans. I am merely relying on ancient knowledge from my A&P days over 20 years ago. The input of a current A&P would be welcomed. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... The cables are not threaded through the holes in the bellcrank. The cables attach to the bellcrank by means of cable shackles. If I recall correctly, the cable shackle can be inserted through the cable loop and thimble after it's swaged although it is easier to thread the cable through before swaging. I installed the thimble and shackle then threaded the cable through the sleeve and shackle, pulled it tight and then clamped it with a small set of vice grips to hold it tight while I made the first crimp in the sleeve. Then just before I installed the wings, I pulled the swaged ends of the cables out into the wings with pieces of rope that I had threaded through the wings with the help of a broom handle and tape. After I had the wings attached and the outer ends of the cables attached to the bellcranks, I cut the cables to length and swaged the inboard ends behind the seats. -------------- Original message ---------------------- > Ed, The cables must be threaded through the holes in the bellcrank, with a > thimble. It is not as easy as it sounds! If this is done outside the wing, the > bellcrank must be removed from its bracket. I suppose it would be easier to > reinstall the bellcrank than to try to do the swaging inside the wing, which > means reattaching the control rod to the aileron, also through the access hole. > While it is possible, I just found it much easier to do with the wing open. > > Jay in Dallas -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:24 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Pushing back a 601XL My answers are below in CAPITAL LETTERS Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes Sky Bryce Airport (VG18) Basye, VA www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Derfler Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:58 PM I'm considering buying an AMD-manufactured Zodiak 601XL. (Yes, I know the Continental isn't as light as the Rotax or as smooth as the Jabaru, but my local A&Ps don't acknowledge the legitimacy of either one --Hey, it's what I've got to work with!) I went for a ride yesterday and enjoyed it, but now the simple "questions that I should have asked" come up.. 1. Tow bar? The two of us pushed the Zodiak back into the hanger by hand without a tow bar. The owner "steered" by pushing down the tail. I will always have to push my airplane back and usually by myself. Is there an appropriate tow bar for pushing back and where does it attach? WE JUST PUSH IT BACK USING THE HUB. THE AIRCRAFT IS SO LIGHT, IT IS EASY TO DO. 2. Tie down? Any hard-earned pieces of 601 XL tie-down wisdom out there? Aileron locks? IF YOU HAVE DUAL STICKS, YOU CAN TIE THE SEAT BELT AROUND ONE OR BOTH OF THE STICKS TO ACT AS AN AILERON AND ELEVATOR LOCK Any extra places to grab onto? The tail tie-down doesn't look too strong, is it possible to "tow" the airplane into a hangar using the tail tie-down? 3. Canopy opening.. is there a pattern somewhere for a block of wood or PVC or something that holds the canopy open while taxiing? Somebody must have designed a nice "clamp on" holder-opener! MY ELBOW WORKS FINE. Thanks! -- FJD -- Frank Derfler See my views and reviews at www.derfler.biz See my information for pilots at www.flyinflorida.com ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:55 PM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scratch build - pre drill holes before --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hi David I have to agree with Paul. Always best to wait until the parts are bent up David --- Paul Mulwitz wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > Hi David, > > Welcome aboard. > > I would recommend waiting to drill holes until the > underlying > structure is built. That way you can put the holes > where they match > the existing structure instead of the theoretical > location the prints > indicate they should be. The little differences > between ideal and > reality can add up. > > Paul > XL Fuselage > > At 04:24 PM 7/8/2006, you wrote: > >First posting from a newbie scratch builder > > > >I have built the tail for my 601XL from a kit from > CZAW and have > >decided to scratch build the rest of the plane. > >I have taken delivery of the sheet aluminium and am > now in the > >process of marking out the skins for the flaps and > ailerons. > >My questions is for those who have already done > this is - should I > >pre-drill the holes while the aluminium is still > flat or should I > >wait until it is bent? > > > >Any suggestions gratefully received > > > > > >Dave > >601XL plans built - wings - England > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:47 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scratch build - pre drill holes before bending? --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hi David: NO and NO! Don't drill any holes until you are ready to install the part. I made this mistake and had to re-make a few parts. I know the drawings show the hole locations but as in the "Pirates Code" it's more like a guideline. There are some exceptions to the rule, but wait until you have the part ready to install to drill the holes and then plan carefully. Good luck, Scott Laughlin --- David Wright wrote: > All > should I > pre-drill the holes while the aluminium is still > flat or should I > wait until it is bent? __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:41 PM PST US From: "norriedh" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rilsan Polyamide Tubing: How to heat bend? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norriedh" Here's how: Rilsan is one of the group of plastics commonly called Nylon, composed of polyamides. The different variants of Nylon have generally similar characteristics, but each has some particular characteristic extended for an application. Rilsan is the trade name of a nylon well suited for tubing. It can be hot bent by heating with a heat gun. Boiling water (100 C) is not hot enough I found, but the melting point is around 180 C so a low heat gun setting is needed. Two tips are: use a bending jig that contrains the sides of the tube from moving out and the tube flattening and use a piece of wooden dowel (sanded down to fit snugly) inside the open end to stop it changing shape and also for leverage. So heat the tube in the area of the bend, put it into the jig, bend and hold till cool. Some springback occurs so repeat as needed to get the bend required. A bending jig can be just a groove filed circumferentially around the corner of a board. Douglas N Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=45806#45806 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:56 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Sounds like you are in a good situation for building. Rayne is 165 miles from the Galveston landing of the Bolivar ferry on a bearing of about 64 degrees. Ed Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Wade Jones To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Hi Ed ,I am located in Brazoria 50mi South of Houston .I will look up Rayne La. and see how close we are .As you can tell by my post I am just getting started ,however when I start a project I put many hours a day into it. My hanger is in my back yard and I am retired . Wade Jones ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:56 PM PST US From: "John Anderson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Getting started on CH601XL Hi Wade, My hats off to YOU. I am 75 years old and still fly and build a lot! I built an Avid Aerobat when I was 72. Had a Jabiru 2200 and was a real kick to fly once I got accustomed to the quickness of the response of the controls. My first snap roll with it was by accident. From there on I really enjoyed aerobatics until I would make myself feel queezy which did not take long. I have a 601HD now that had a Revmaster when I bought it. Replaced it with a zero time Lycoming 0235. It makes twice as much noise and burns twice as much gas. Canopy blew off the other day and I am just about thru with the addition of a front opening canopy. Sorry if I bored you Wade, just wanted you to know that there was other "well seasoned" folks out here having fun. See you later, John Do not archive ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:44 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Actually, you don't even have to tighten the shackle bolts inside the hatch. Everything can be done in the daylight except bolting the bellcrank back into its bracket. Feed the pre-thimbled cables through the lightening holes as you suggested, insert the shackles, bolt them to the bellcrank under the wing (outside the hatch). Then the bellcrank is bolted to its bracket inside the hatch. I made my hatch bigger than the plans called for so it ought to be reasonably easy. Ed ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:34 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Valentine" > > > Thanks Randy and Jay - > > I am getting close to closing up my first wing and, like Gary, I don't > really want to do this at the moment. Perhaps a couple more questions > will help me understand more of what is at stake: > > 1) Can't you make the loop in the cable outside of the wing at any > time, any place? > If so, then you can just feed the cable into the closed wing with a > 1x2 or something. > > 2) Can't you then slide the pre-made loop into the cable shackle and > just bolt the shackle to the bellcrank through the access hole? > Then the only thing you are actually doing through the access hole is > tightening the shackle bolts. > > Am I still missing something? **And, why doesn't Zenith have any > drawings/guides/instructions on these steps?** > > Thanks, Michael > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:24 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Thanks. That's pretty much how I expect to do mine. Ed ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:40 PM > The cables are not threaded through the holes in the bellcrank. The cables > attach to the bellcrank by means of cable shackles. If I recall correctly, > the cable shackle can be inserted through the cable loop and thimble after > it's swaged although it is easier to thread the cable through before > swaging. > > I installed the thimble and shackle then threaded the cable through the > sleeve and shackle, pulled it tight and then clamped it with a small set > of vice grips to hold it tight while I made the first crimp in the sleeve. > Then just before I installed the wings, I pulled the swaged ends of the > cables out into the wings with pieces of rope that I had threaded through > the wings with the help of a broom handle and tape. > > After I had the wings attached and the outer ends of the cables attached > to the bellcranks, I cut the cables to length and swaged the inboard ends > behind the seats.