Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Dave)
2. 03:43 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 05:29 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Jim Pellien)
4. 05:29 AM - most anti-aviation city in the nation (Keith Ashcraft)
5. 05:44 AM - Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts (N5SL)
6. 06:24 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Frank Roskind)
7. 07:06 AM - Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines (Mike Fothergill)
8. 07:16 AM - Builders' Hint No. 29 (Zed Smith)
9. 07:27 AM - Re: Where can I buy Cortec 373? (Al Young)
10. 08:07 AM - Painting... (Jari Kaija)
11. 08:33 AM - Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts (Gig Giacona)
12. 08:42 AM - Stopped Prop in Glide (FLOYD JAMISON)
13. 08:59 AM - Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines (N601RT)
14. 09:00 AM - Re: To paint or not to paint (Geoff Heap)
15. 09:15 AM - Re: The Bends! (kevinbonds)
16. 09:22 AM - Re: Question for finished builders (Geoff Heap)
17. 09:23 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Paul Mulwitz)
18. 09:39 AM - Re: The Bends! (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
19. 09:46 AM - Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds)
20. 09:52 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Tom and Bren Henderson)
21. 10:06 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe)
22. 10:27 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds)
23. 11:06 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (LarryMcFarland)
24. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts (N5SL)
25. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: To paint or not to paint (raymondj)
26. 11:29 AM - 601 Hat with tail number (John Hines)
27. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: lower nose gear support bolts- Another Picture (N5SL)
28. 11:42 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Ron Butterfield)
29. 11:50 AM - Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines (george may)
30. 12:17 PM - Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane insurance. (Peter Chapman)
31. 12:24 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (B Johnson)
32. 12:43 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (N5SL)
33. 12:49 PM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Frank Roskind)
34. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: To paint or not to paint (Bryan Martin)
35. 12:51 PM - Re: Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane insurance. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
36. 12:53 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds)
37. 01:26 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Bryan Martin)
38. 01:26 PM - Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Jim Pellien)
39. 01:26 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe)
40. 01:38 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Ron Butterfield)
41. 01:50 PM - Re: Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane (Peter Chapman)
42. 01:51 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (George Swinford)
43. 02:14 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (N5SL)
44. 02:16 PM - Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines (Bill Mileski)
45. 02:28 PM - Re: 601 Hat with tail number (Gary Boothe)
46. 02:31 PM - Rent What? (Zed Smith)
47. 02:35 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe)
48. 02:58 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Jaybannist@cs.com)
49. 03:08 PM - Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (Jaybannist@cs.com)
50. 03:23 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Bill Naumuk)
51. 03:34 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe)
52. 03:34 PM - Another Scrap-builder Question. (JOHN STARN)
53. 03:42 PM - Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (Zodie Rocket)
54. 03:54 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
55. 04:30 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Randy L. Thwing)
56. 04:39 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Jaybannist@cs.com)
57. 04:46 PM - Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (george may)
58. 04:49 PM - Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (Jaybannist@cs.com)
59. 04:49 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe)
60. 04:51 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe)
61. 04:55 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Jaybannist@cs.com)
62. 05:07 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Randy L. Thwing)
63. 05:11 PM - GPS (Milburn Reed)
64. 05:56 PM - ZA extrusion photo (Randy L. Thwing)
65. 06:08 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Bill Naumuk)
66. 06:08 PM - Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (Bill Naumuk)
67. 06:20 PM - Re: Painting... (Steve Hulland)
68. 06:31 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Jim Pellien)
69. 06:38 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Steve Hulland)
70. 06:43 PM - Re: ZA extrusion photo (Gary Boothe)
71. 06:45 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe)
72. 06:48 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Steve Hulland)
73. 06:50 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Tom and Bren Henderson)
74. 07:02 PM - Re: GPS (Jim Pellien)
75. 07:02 PM - extrusions (Russell J.)
76. 07:03 PM - RE : ZA extrusion photo (Carlos Sa)
77. 07:10 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Jim Pellien)
78. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: To paint or not to paint (John Marzulli)
79. 08:14 PM - Re: most anti-aviation city in the nation (Noel Loveys)
80. 08:51 PM - Re: ZA extrusion photo (Gary Boothe)
81. 09:09 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Edward Moody II)
82. 09:14 PM - Re: extrusions (Randy L. Thwing)
83. 09:45 PM - What i did on my summer vacation, OR New paint (N601RT)
84. 10:02 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds)
85. 10:25 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Airplane insurance. |
Interesting figures. I drive a motorcycle, so it appears I can take off
in an aircraft that's already on fire and still be safer in the air!
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Winger
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Airplane insurance.
The comparison cited, while interesting, misses a fundamental
difference between the word "accident" when applied to cars and light
aricraft.
The chances of walking away from that oft-mentioned auto accident "on
the way to the airport" are presumably greater than the kind of
"accident" you may have after leaving terra firma in a light airplane.
While not every GA accident is fatal (thankfully), it would be more
appropriate to consider the relevant statistics for "Fatalities Per 100
Million Vehicle Miles Driven." An interpolation between the rate of
overall accidents (235 per 100 million miles) and that of fatal
accidents in autos ( 1.44 per 100 million miles) is probably more
realistic. In that light, the numbers strongly indicate -- as the Kings
have said --that driving your Honda Pilot to the airport looks a whole
lot safer than your activities when you become the pilot of your small
plane.
Check out http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/ for the fuller picture.
Larry Winger
Scratch building 601XL
do not archive
On 7/16/06, Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
<p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net >
I guess the Kings know something the government statistics people
don't know.
I did a little hunting on the Internet for accident statistics.
Here
are the results:
GA accident rate last year was 6.83 accidents per 100,000 hours.
Automobile accident rate (1999) was 235 accidents per 100 million
miles. Dividing that by 50 mph average (my number) you get 117
accidents per 2 million hours or 58 per million hours.
This translates to 5.8 per 100,000 hours or approximately the same
rate per hour as general aviation.
In their piece the Kings claim GA accident rates are 7 times that of
autos. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is the Kings that are
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Airplane insurance. |
After looking at the referenced table, I am led to believe that you
are more likely to be in an auto accident, but more likely to be
killed in a general aviation accident than in a car. (I noticed a
little arithmetic error in my earlier post - the GA accident rate
should be about half the auto rate when based on 100,000 hours)
I don't want to sell the King's point of view short. There is
certainly need for pilots to be aware of risks to their passengers
and themselves. This is even more obvious when you consider the vast
majority of aircraft accidents result from pilot error. I didn't see
any equivalent statistics on auto accidents, but I presume the most
common auto accident is a collision with another auto which implies
the other driver is just as likely to be at fault as you are. I know
most airplane accidents are not collisions with other airplanes.
Perhaps the most interesting issue in this whole story is the
helplessness passengers in either an auto or airplane have with
regard to accidents. In either case they can only hope their number
is not up yet. At least the pilot or driver has at least some
control over his destiny.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 10:48 PM 7/16/2006, you wrote:
>The comparison cited, while interesting, misses a fundamental
>difference between the word "accident" when applied to cars and
>light aricraft.
>
>The chances of walking away from that oft-mentioned auto accident
>"on the way to the airport" are presumably greater than the kind of
>"accident" you may have after leaving terra firma in a light airplane.
>
>While not every GA accident is fatal (thankfully), it would be more
>appropriate to consider the relevant statistics for "Fatalities Per
>100 Million Vehicle Miles Driven." An interpolation between the
>rate of overall accidents (235 per 100 million miles) and that of
>fatal accidents in autos ( 1.44 per 100 million miles) is probably
>more realistic. In that light, the numbers strongly indicate -- as
>the Kings have said --that driving your Honda Pilot to the airport
>looks a whole lot safer than your activities when you become the
>pilot of your small plane.
>
>Check out
><http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/>http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/ for
>the fuller picture.
>
>Larry Winger
>Scratch building 601XL
>do not archive
>
>
>On 7/16/06, Paul Mulwitz
><<mailto:p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
><<mailto:p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net >
>
>I guess the Kings know something the government statistics people don't know.
>
>I did a little hunting on the Internet for accident statistics. Here
>are the results:
>
>GA accident rate last year was 6.83 accidents per 100,000 hours.
>
>Automobile accident rate (1999) was 235 accidents per 100 million
>miles. Dividing that by 50 mph average (my number) you get 117
>accidents per 2 million hours or 58 per million hours.
>This translates to 5.8 per 100,000 hours or approximately the same
>rate per hour as general aviation.
>
>In their piece the Kings claim GA accident rates are 7 times that of
>autos. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is the Kings that are
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Airplane insurance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
I think you should re-check your math. I get 12 accidents per 100,000 hrs
for automobiles using your starting figure of 235 accidents per 1-- million
miles and an average speed of 50 mph.
However the average speed is probably closer to 25 mph, considering signals,
stops, traffic jams, city driving etc. Which brings the number up to 24
accidents per 100,000 miles, about 4 times the GA rate.
I would venture that what the Kings are talking about is the fatality rate.
It seems to make sense that the fatality rate for an airplane would be far
higher than for an auto.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
Sky Bryce Airport (VG18)
Basye, VA
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:18 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
I guess the Kings know something the government statistics people don't
know.
I did a little hunting on the Internet for accident statistics. Here
are the results:
GA accident rate last year was 6.83 accidents per 100,000 hours.
Automobile accident rate (1999) was 235 accidents per 100 million
miles. Dividing that by 50 mph average (my number) you get 117
accidents per 2 million hours or 58 per million hours.
This translates to 5.8 per 100,000 hours or approximately the same
rate per hour as general aviation.
In their piece the Kings claim GA accident rates are 7 times that of
autos. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is the Kings that are
telling the Big Lie.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
>I'm from Missouri when it comes to this claim. Take a look at the
>provocative comments here:
-
Message 4
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| Subject: | most anti-aviation city in the nation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft <keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
All.
This information has been floating around in a couple of other "Groups"
that I belong to. It might be worth checking out if you are in the
Florida area.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/browse_thread/thread/688f409b9c514e53/25ddcbef1957bb52#25ddcbef1957bb52
Keith
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
David:
I countersunk mine from the top and bolted them all
the way through with nuts on the bottom. Here's a veiw
from below showing the nuts on the bottom.
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_30_06_Engine_Below.JPG
The countersunk holes on top also hold some grease for
lubrication.
I don't have a closeup handy of the top.
I hope this helps,
Scott Laughlin
Omaha, Nebraska
601XL
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
--- deglass1@aol.com wrote:
> This might be obvious, but is an unusual design
> practice -
> The 4 bolts AN4H-5A that mount the lower nose gear
> bearing support 6B8-9 to the nylon bearing appear to
> require a blind, threaded hole into the nylon block,
> then they're safety wired to prevent backout. The
> bolt length appears to support this, but depending
> on threaded plastic for pullout strength doesn't
> sound like good practice without an anchor insert.
> Please advise - are these bolts just threaded into
> the nylon, and is this OK since there won't be any
> (or not much) pullout force or shock?
>
> Thanks for all the help this list gives all of us!
>
> David Glass
> Forest (near Lynchburg), VA
> N253DG reserved
> XL fuse, finally finishing the airframe
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
__________________________________________________
Message 6
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| Subject: | Airplane insurance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" <frankroskind@hotmail.com>
I think you have to take into account reporting thresholds and criteria. If
I scrape the auto next to me when pulling out of a parking spot,it is an
accident in the data, while if I pull my airplane out of a hangar and catch
the next airplane's wing, I don't have an accident which will be shown in
the statistics. Some accident data have dollar damage thresholds also, and
shifts in those thresholds can dramatically alter the number of reported
accidents. What seldom changes are fatalities, although even those are
reported differently by various transportation modes. Some report
fatalities only in the 24 hours following the accident, others can count any
fatality within the following year.
Another issue in analyzing general aviation accident rates is that some
types of flying do not translate well using aircraft-miles as a measure of
exposure. Pattern work and aerobatics are two quick examples.
I think the Kings were onto something in the article cited in this thread.
If 85% of all accidents are human factor related, then we have to address
human factor accidents in order to have an effect on overall safety. We
could also address survivability, and there have been some good ideas there,
but obviously the real action is in hman factors.
What can we do to improve human factor accident rates? First, we can try to
understand the various causes. One very promising model breaks human factor
accidnets into lapses, mistakes and violations. A lapse is when a pilot
fails to do something he knows he should and is trying to do, for example, a
pilot can forget to check the fuel during preflight. A mistake is when the
pilot believes he has taken the correct action, but has misperceived some
rality, for example, the pilot checks the fuel level, but does not see the
level correctly, and accts on an incorrect comprehension of the fuel level.
A violation occurs when a pilot deliberately ignores a safety rule, for
example, a pilot decides to fly with a ten minute fuel reserve, even though
a longer reserve is required.
Violations are the easiest to cure in our own flying. Just don't violate
your rules, whether imposed by external entities such as the FAA or the
insurance company, or by yourself.
Some lapses can be cured by adhering to fixed procedures. If you use a
checklist to do a preflight, and don't take off until each box is checked,
you can avoid some lapses like forgetting to check the fuel level. What
used to be a lapse caused accident will now take a violation, which is
easier to avoid.
Some lapses and mistakes are facilitated by design. This is an area where
manufacturers can help improve safety. Gauges can be easier to see and less
ambiguous. Fuel tanks can be easier to check, perhaps with access steps for
high-wing aircraft.
Finally, some lapses and mistakes are due to distraction. Here the
regulatory bodies can help. A lot of airspace restrictions take pilot
attention at critical phases of flight. Simpler procedures could help avoid
distractions. There are lots of other distractions, and to the extent
possible we should work to reduce them.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
I think you should re-check your math. I get 12 accidents per 100,000 hrs
for automobiles using your starting figure of 235 accidents per 1-- million
miles and an average speed of 50 mph.
However the average speed is probably closer to 25 mph, considering signals,
stops, traffic jams, city driving etc. Which brings the number up to 24
accidents per 100,000 miles, about 4 times the GA rate.
I would venture that what the Kings are talking about is the fatality rate.
It seems to make sense that the fatality rate for an airplane would be far
higher than for an auto.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
Sky Bryce Airport (VG18)
Basye, VA
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:18 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
I guess the Kings know something the government statistics people don't
know.
I did a little hunting on the Internet for accident statistics. Here
are the results:
GA accident rate last year was 6.83 accidents per 100,000 hours.
Automobile accident rate (1999) was 235 accidents per 100 million
miles. Dividing that by 50 mph average (my number) you get 117
accidents per 2 million hours or 58 per million hours.
This translates to 5.8 per 100,000 hours or approximately the same
rate per hour as general aviation.
In their piece the Kings claim GA accident rates are 7 times that of
autos. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is the Kings that are
telling the Big Lie.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
>I'm from Missouri when it comes to this claim. Take a look at the
>provocative comments here:
-
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi;
I asked Rotec about about ethanol. They said that a bulletin was going
to be published. A local station said that there could be ethanol in the
gas but my test showwed none at all. The test is easy to do.
Mike
912ULS
UHS Spinners
Charles Kyle wrote:
> Does anyone know if Rotax 912 series engines can use gasoline/ethanol
> mixes? In my area the fuel has up to 10% ethanol added in the summer to
> reduce pollution and I am wondering if those engines tolerate the mix.
> I have looked at the Rotax documentation available and it does not seem
> to address the issue. Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> Chuck Kyle
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Builders' Hint No. 29 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
List,
Everybody soon develops unique methods of accomplishing the impossible while building
without the luxury of a platoon of helpers.
Just so you will all know: A 1997 EZ-GO golf cart with roof will fit nicely under
the wing of a 701.
If you put two or three bath towels on the roof as padding, roll the cart under
from the front just outboard of the strut attach points you'll have a great support.....add
air to cart tires and/or remove air from 701 tires to achieve exact
distance required to remove/re-install struts for whatever reason. Attach
bolts become easy to insert/remove.
Too bad the riding lawnmower doesn't have a roof.....be an excellent excuse for
it to stay idle until winter.
Regards to all,
Zed/701/R912/etc
do not archive the part about the lawnmower
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Where can I buy Cortec 373? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@mchsi.com>
William- check with Shirley at Zenith. I bought some from them about a year
ago.
Al Young
XL
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 6:22 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
>
> I want to use Cortec 373 for corrosions protection but
> I've been unable to find a place that will sell it,
> neither on line nor local. I've searched the archives
> and couldn't find a message that mention where to buy
> it. I checked the Cortec web site and no list of
> distributors. Did a search in Yahoo and Google and I
> got a lot of hits about Cortec but no one from a
> store. Checked some local stores and nothing. Does
> anyone know the secret place where I can buy this
> product?
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> www.ea-report.com
>
>
>
Message 10
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Over 20 years has gone, when I last time paint cars (few of them).
It was more than gladfully to notice, I haven't lost my touch :-)
Main color entered. Blue and red strips waiting...
Paint: Delfleet 350 series.
----------------------------------
http://www.jarikaija.com
http://www.project-ch701.net
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
I just did this last week and while I was doing it I felt like this was the weakest
link I've installed in my aircraft to-date.
I like your idea Scott and I may go redo that next weekend. Is there anyway you
can get a photo of the top side and post it?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47863#47863
Message 12
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| Subject: | Stopped Prop in Glide |
Jim,
Look at George's post that cites from the Naval Aviator's Handbook. the
Prop disc determines the area of drag but the ratio / percentage of drag
is determined by the angle of the prop blade. Natuarlly a windmilling
prop doesn't present 10 times as much drag, but it does present a
significant drag factor that should be understood and used (or
eliminated) as necessary to effect a safe landing under emergency
conditions.
When you have the opportunity, try it for yourself. Its a worthwhile
exercise.
George, Spot on. Thanks.
R,
Floyd
Do Not Archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" <N601RT@comcast.net>
One of the Rotax manuals say 5% alcohol is OK (I don't remember which manual).
I took the 3 day 20 hr Rotax 4 stroke class in Jan'06 where the instructor (and
Rotax guru) Eric Tucker said that the 91x series runs fine with 10% alcohol
BUT that the rest of the fuel system must also be verified to be OK with the alcohol.
I've run Chevron Premium with 10% alcohol in N601RT without problem.
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped,
562hrs, 674 landings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47879#47879
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: To paint or not to paint |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
My 10 cents I started building (701) in 1991. Prior to assy of anything I would
scotchbrite, alumprep, (alodine sometimes), and prime. My wings have been
finished and stored for over 6 years and are painted on the outside (rag wiped)
with zinc chromate (rattle can for all internal parts). I know that if I wipe
this off to use a different primer I will have a nice shiny clean alum surface
underneath. Over the years I have switched to Primers more compatible with
modern finish paints. However, today I have the fuse nearly finished. wings, rudder,
stab, flaperons and slats all finished and I don't have a single component
that is not primed. I consider the inside finished except for the cabin area
which I will finish paint. I'd die if I had to paint everything in one shot.
I'm so used to painting as I go along now that it's just part of the building
process. For me I believe that this is the way to go. By the way, most everything
is different shades of grey right now and without a finish paint job it
looks quite nice compared to a bare metal job ........Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47880#47880
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Yeah, after reading AC 43.13 last night, I agree drilling new holes was a
bad idea. Glad I decided to sleep on it. Sometimes, after making a mistake,
I am too anxious to fix it. There is a lack of information in AC 43.13 about
rivets resting in the bend or drilling too close. This is one of those gray
areas. Glad I put that huge fuselage access door in. I think I will inspect
this area regularly.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:48 AM
Kevin,
I'd not drill new holes in the longeron to satisfy an issue of edge
distance in this case. If the rivets do not look out of line
or impose any structural losses because of the fit, use the holes that
you have placed.
Larry McFarland
do not archive
kevinbonds wrote:
> I need some advice. I have been drilling my Fuselage side skins. I
> accidentally drilled into the bend radius of the longeron splice--not
> the longeron itself. Because the splice sits inside the longeron the
> bend starts to crowd the edge distance. It's kind of a fine line. I
> got sloppy after a long day. I'm thinking of replacing the splice but
> I would have to drill new holes in the longeron-leaving the present
> ones open. Would this would be acceptable. Assuming I am able to
> follow the 3x diameter between rivet holes and still maintain edge
> distance. Any other ideas? I am consulting AC 43.13 for a cure.
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
> Nashville TN
>
> 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
>
> Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
> <http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekevinbonds>
>
> do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Question for finished builders |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
My 10 cents I started building (701) in 1991. Prior to assy of anything I would
scotchbrite, alumprep, (alodine sometimes), and prime. My wings have been
finished and stored for over 6 years and are painted on the outside (rag wiped)
with zinc chromate (rattle can for all internal parts). I know that if I wipe
this off to use a different primer I will have a nice shiny clean alum surface
underneath. Over the years I have switched to Primers more compatible with
modern finish paints. However, today I have the fuse nearly finished. wings, rudder,
stab, flaperons and slats all finished and I don't have a single component
that is not primed. I consider the inside finished except for the cabin area
which I will finish paint. I'd die if I had to paint everything in one shot.
I'm so used to painting as I go along now that it's just part of the building
process. For me I believe that this is the way to go. By the way, most everything
is different shades of grey right now and without a finish paint job it
looks quite nice compared to a bare metal job ........Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47889#47889
Message 17
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| Subject: | Airplane insurance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Frank,
I agree with everything you said. I like the notion of considering
violations and working to push more of the routine pilot functions
into this realm.
I would suggest another way to look at the accident statistics is to
consider the ones that, in my opinion, are the most common and the
most avoidable. This is the "Flight into IMC" and flight while
under the influence of alcohol. I realize the likelihood of alcohol
related accidents seems to be limited to younger pilots, but there is
just no excuse for this problem. The flight into IMC is much more
difficult to deal with.
I am lucky that my wife is also a pilot. She doesn't have my level
of skill or experience, but she has a very good eye for bad weather
up ahead. I can remember times when she got me to turn around when I
might have kept going. I don't know how to translate this into a
principle for other pilots, but I still think the flight into bad
weather accidents are the most insidious. This kind of accident is
both avoidable and often fatal.
One other pilot skill issue I have mentioned several times before on
this list is the question about landing procedures normally used by
pilots. Those pilots who normally approach runways with the power
off get lots of practice flying without using the throttle to make
the runway. Those pilots who choose to always use power for their
approaches deny themselves the practice. I wonder how many of the
serious accidents related to loss of engine power could be avoided if
the pilots were "Up to speed" on power off landing techniques.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
>What can we do to improve human factor accident rates? First, we
>can try to understand the various causes. One very promising model
>breaks human factor accidnets into lapses, mistakes and violations.
Message 18
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Kevin, seems like you could celco in the overlapping splice and drill back
through only the good holes from the inside. Without seeing it seems like you
could make through the two end hole and celco it and then redrill back through
the splice. Best of luck, Bill of Georgia
Message 19
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3.
I'm having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it
architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some
6061? Source?
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut it down.
You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a good price.
kevinbonds <kevinbonds@comcast.net> wrote:
Clean Clean DocumentEmail false false false
MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui)
} /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table
Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400;
mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} I ordered
what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. Im having
a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle.
What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source?
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
Message 21
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Kevin,
That is =9Cextruded=9D angle. I am on the West Coast and
bought it at a local supplier, but had to buy 1 =C2=BD x 1 =C2=BD.
I=99ll cut to suit
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom and
Bren Henderson
Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut
it down. You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a
good price.
kevinbonds <kevinbonds@comcast.net> wrote:
I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is
2024-T3. I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m having a hard time finding this odd
sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else
done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source?
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
<http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekevinbonds>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Yeah it=99s =9Cextruded=9D but the
=9Carchitectural=9D refers to it being different lengths on
each side.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:05 PM
Kevin,
That is =9Cextruded=9D angle. I am on the West Coast and
bought it at a local supplier, but had to buy 1 =C2=BD x 1 =C2=BD.
I=99ll cut to suit
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom and
Bren Henderson
Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut
it down. You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a
good price.
kevinbonds <kevinbonds@comcast.net> wrote:
I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is
2024-T3. I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m having a hard time finding this odd
sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else
done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source?
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
<http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekevinbonds>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Kevin,
I remember setting beside my power bandsaw cutting 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8
inch angle lengthwise to reduce one side to 1-inch.
Took a while, but very doable. I put masking tape on the slide surface
of the saw, ink marked the inch dimension full length and cut
outside the mark or just touching it. Then I put a disk sander on the
edge to bring it perfectly into the ink mark, smoothed the edge and
broke the corners with a file. Aircraft Spruce has the above in 6061 T6
at $1.81 a foot if you need it. Don't use 2024-T3!
Good luck,
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
kevinbonds wrote:
> I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is
> 2024-T3. Im having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks
> call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024?
> Cut down some 6061? Source?
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
> Nashville TN
>
> 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
>
> Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
> <http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekevinbonds>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts |
Hi Gig:
I looked through my backup photos and came up with
these two (attached). It's in a tight spot and engine
parts hide most of it these days.
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
Working on canopy
--- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@cox.net> wrote:
> I like your idea Scott and I may go redo that next
> weekend. Is there anyway you can get a photo of the
> top side and post it?
__________________________________________________
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: To paint or not to paint |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "raymondj" <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
Much of the discussion about paint or not seems to revolve around
appearance. I'm trying maximize my efficiency (be lazy) when it comes to the
finish. I understand the importance of corrosion protection, but I'm
wondering if there is some process out there that offers adequate
protection, though it may look bad, with less work than either paint or
polish.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
Corvair core acquired
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Geoff Heap
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:00 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
My 10 cents I started building (701) in 1991. Prior to assy of anything I
would scotchbrite, alumprep, (alodine sometimes), and prime. My wings have
been finished and stored for over 6 years and are painted on the outside
(rag wiped) with zinc chromate (rattle can for all internal parts). I know
that if I wipe this off to use a different primer I will have a nice shiny
clean alum surface underneath. Over the years I have switched to Primers
more compatible with modern finish paints. However, today I have the fuse
nearly finished. wings, rudder, stab, flaperons and slats all finished and I
don't have a single component that is not primed. I consider the inside
finished except for the cabin area which I will finish paint. I'd die if I
had to paint everything in one shot. I'm so used to painting as I go along
now that it's just part of the building process. For me I believe that this
is the way to go. By the way, most everything is different shades of grey
right now and with!
out a finish paint job it looks quite nice compared to a bare metal job
........Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47880#47880
Message 26
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| Subject: | 601 Hat with tail number |
Guys,
Sorry for the shameless plug for my friend, but...
I had my friend make me a custom hat with a picture of Zenith 601 and my
tail number. Now that they have the design in their computer, the cost
is only $15 per hat. Just send them an email with your tail number and
the color you want. You can coordinate payment and shipment with them.
I just liked mine so much I wanted to share! The really cool thing is
that Dorothy is married to a retired SR-71 pilot.
Just go to www.johnsplane.com <http://www.johnsplane.com/> and click on
the picture of the hat.
John
Don not archive
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: lower nose gear support bolts- Another Picture |
Gig:
I found one more picture that is important if you plan
to go this route. The countersink for the back holes
get into the stop-block part of the bearing. This may
be difficult to do on a drill press - I used my little
mill.
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
--- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@cox.net> wrote:
> I like your idea Scott and I may go redo that next
> weekend. Is there anyway you can get a photo of the
> top side and post it?
__________________________________________________
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield <rbutterfield@mebtel.net>
kevinbonds wrote:
> Yeah its extruded but the architectural refers to it being different lengths
on each side.
NO!
Sorry for shouting, but this wouldn't be so critical if "architectural"
weren't usually 6063 which is HALF AS STRONG as 6061, which is itself
slightly less strong than 2024.
Architectural refers to the metal's intended environment, and the alloy
chosen to optimize it's service life in that environment.
For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to
"aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063.
6061 is often referred to as "aircraft" grade even though it is often
used for other things. 6063 is usually what you get when you order
"architectural" grade; the alloy is optimized for corrosion resistance,
not strength.
Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as
compared to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy
visual identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or
appearance (square).
--
Regards,
RonB
Message 29
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| Subject: | Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
kyle--
There was just an article by Phil Lockwood on the use of fuel with
ethanol. He indicated that Rotax engines can run with 5% ethanol and that
some folks are currently running with 10%. It looks like we are all going
to find out soon how they do on 10%. Most of the gas stations around where
I live are now posting fuels with 10% ethanol. I'm currently flying behind
a Rotax 582 and have had to use some of the 10% gas. No problems so far.
George May
601XL 912s
>From: "Charles Kyle" <Phoenix3@cox.net>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines
>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:18:52 -0400
>
>Does anyone know if Rotax 912 series engines can use gasoline/ethanol
>mixes? In my area the fuel has up to 10% ethanol added in the summer to
>reduce pollution and I am wondering if those engines tolerate the mix.
>I have looked at the Rotax documentation available and it does not seem
>to address the issue. Thanks in advance.
>
>Chuck Kyle
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Message 30
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| Subject: | Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane insurance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman <pchapman@ionsys.com>
The discussion here has been about the relative risks of general
aviation vs. driving. Out of curiosity I once looked at another
comparison of fatality rates, that of flying homebuilts vs. skydiving.
What follows is something I wrote to the EAA. The numbers are a bit
old because it was written in 1997. The EAA didn't publish it, so I
tried again with the smaller Canadian equivalent (RAA), but I heard
nothing from them either. While statistics are a tricky thing to
interpret, you can judge whether they didn't believe the
interpretation of the data, or didn't like the message!
=========== One version of the letter was this:
Homebuilt Aircraft & Relative Risk
In the June issue of "Sport Aviation", Tom Poberezny reported improvements
in US homebuilt aircraft safety statistics over recent years. Despite a
registered fleet that grew about 25% from 1992 to 1996, the number of
accidents remained essentially constant, while fatal accidents and
fatalities dropped roughly 10 to 15%. In 1996, fatal accidents to homebuilts
in the USA numbered 56, out of a registered fleet of 18700.
What wasn't noted in the article is the obvious conclusion that one in every
334 homebuilts is involved in a fatal accident each year. Which is not that
far from saying that if you are the pilot of a homebuilt aircraft, there is
a 1 in 334 chance of getting killed in it each year. Not quite so
good sounding?
Naturally this ignores factors such as distinguishing passenger from pilot
fatalities, higher accident rates during initial test flights only (and
lower thereafter), the number of pilots flying each homebuilt, how an
accident involving two homebuilts is counted, and whether all registered
aircraft are actually flown. Still, the number should be a good ballpark
figure. Using the 1992 figures gives a more pessimistic 1 in 231. As
independent evidence, one report I saw in 1990 on the safety of different
sports and activities (US insurance company data) listed a 1 in 320 fatality
rate for homebuilts per participant, per year.
To gain additional perspective, one can compare the numbers for homebuilts
to an aviation activity that has some reputation for high risk: skydiving.
US and international data on skydiving in recent years indicate a fatality
rate in the neighbourhood of 1 in 1000 participants per year, for
non-students. [Edit: I've done a lot of looking at skydiving statistics and
know the sport well, so I'm confident that the 1 in 1000 was and continues to
be a realistic number.] (Adding in students improves the rate by
something like a
factor of four, as many make only one jump and so are exposed to little "per
participant" risk.)
Conclusion: homebuilts are in some ways three times more
dangerous than skydiving. I didn't expect that when I first started looking
at the numbers.
===================
Peter Chapman
Toronto, Canada
partner in a 601 HDS; 1500 jumps
P.S. - Regarding the discussion on general aviation vs. driving
accident rates mentioned on the King web site: To answer a question,
the site says that the data is for fatalities, not accidents in general.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
Dont forget candle wax!
When cutting aluminum with my bandsaw, especially with long cuts, I turn the
saw on then lub the blade with any old candle that happens to be laying
around. On long cuts, I also rub the candle along the cut line for a bit
extra lub... Makes a bandsaw cut 6061 like butta....
-Bruce
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryMcFarland
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:03 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question.
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Kevin,
> I remember setting beside my power bandsaw cutting 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8
> inch angle lengthwise to reduce one side to 1-inch.
> Took a while, but very doable. I put masking tape on the slide surface
> of the saw, ink marked the inch dimension full length and cut
> outside the mark or just touching it. Then I put a disk sander on the
> edge to bring it perfectly into the ink mark, smoothed the edge and
> broke the corners with a file. Aircraft Spruce has the above in 6061 T6
> at $1.81 a foot if you need it. Don't use 2024-T3!
> Good luck,
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
> kevinbonds wrote:
>
> > I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is
> > 2024-T3. Im having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks
> > call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024?
> > Cut down some 6061? Source?
> >
> > Kevin Bonds
> >
> > Nashville TN
> >
> > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
> >
> > Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
> >
> > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
> > <http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekevinbonds>
>
--
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Larry and Kevin:
Another way to do this is to use a table saw and a
piece of wood. Aircraft Spruce ships tubing and
hinges strapped to 1X2" strips of wood. You can press
the angle tightly against a piece of this wood and run
it through your table saw using the guide fence and
get a nice, clean cut to reduce one of the sides of
the angle. If you are brave you can cut it without
the wood but it's more scary. Same results. Be sure
to use pushing blocks and keep your fingers away from
the blade. This way you get a really straight edge.
I use this same wood-block method when cross-cutting
aluminum angle with my power miter saw.
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
--- LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote:
> Kevin,
> I remember setting beside my power bandsaw cutting
> 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8 inch angle lengthwise
__________________________________________________
Message 33
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| Subject: | Airplane insurance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" <frankroskind@hotmail.com>
I can't see how alcohol related flight is anything but a violation, using
the lapse, mistake, violation model.
Continued VFR flight into IMC is a little more challenging. If the pilot
does not get a weather briefing, or deliberately continues into clouds, then
we have a violation type of accident. If a pilot misunderstands a weather
briefing, or the weather briefing is inaccurate, we could have a mistake, if
the pilot could not avoid the clouds. More common would be if the pilot
thought that the weather was not going to worsen, and continued into
conditions that did. Again this is a mistake, and may even get to the point
of violation. If the pilot adopts a self imposed limitation that requires
a precautionary landing at the first available airport, then continuing the
flight would be a violation, and easily avoidable. Night flight into IMC
could be inadvertent if the pilot had no warning of clouds, and definitely
would be a mistake, and much harder to avoid. Clearly then, night flight
should be a violation if the pilot cannot handle brief periods of instrument
flight. It is less obvious whether the correct response to unexpected
clouds at night is a 180 or continued flight. In general the 180 seems
safer, however the pilot needs to know where he is for terrain avoidance
when doing a 180. Way too many pilots have made their 180 to the west over
the Hudson river, hitting the Catskills, instead of flying over the
flatlands on the East side of the river.
I am also unsure as to how to categorize the power off approach as an
everyday technique. My inclination would be to discourage it as an everyday
technique, especially for some of the lighter aircraft, like the 701, and
rather to enourage the pilot to practice power-off approaches regularly, but
not on every landing. There is a substantial risk in a power-off approach
in aircraft with poor gliding characteristics. The flare must be much more
precise, and each landing adds risk. I certainly proved that personally in
a Piper Colt, when I did a less than completely successful power-off
approach in an airplane with an airspeed indicator reading higher than
actual. At the time I was a student pilot on my fourth solo, and I had not
flown the Colt in question before, so I did not have the benefit of
instructors' advice. They had been telling students to land that particular
Colt at 85 mph indicated on final, when the other Colts landed at 65 mph
indicated on final. My guess is that the erroneous reading had been caused
by low pressure at the static port under the instrument panel, caused by a
bent door which reduced cabin pressure. The apparent airspeed was hard to
detect at that point in my training, as the wind noise was about right, as
was the ground speed on the hot windless day.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Frank,
I agree with everything you said. I like the notion of considering
violations and working to push more of the routine pilot functions into this
realm.
I would suggest another way to look at the accident statistics is to
consider the ones that, in my opinion, are the most common and the most
avoidable. This is the "Flight into IMC" and flight while under the
influence of alcohol. I realize the likelihood of alcohol related accidents
seems to be limited to younger pilots, but there is just no excuse for this
problem. The flight into IMC is much more difficult to deal with.
I am lucky that my wife is also a pilot. She doesn't have my level of skill
or experience, but she has a very good eye for bad weather up ahead. I can
remember times when she got me to turn around when I might have kept going.
I don't know how to translate this into a principle for other pilots, but I
still think the flight into bad weather accidents are the most insidious.
This kind of accident is both avoidable and often fatal.
One other pilot skill issue I have mentioned several times before on this
list is the question about landing procedures normally used by pilots.
Those pilots who normally approach runways with the power off get lots of
practice flying without using the throttle to make the runway. Those pilots
who choose to always use power for their approaches deny themselves the
practice. I wonder how many of the serious accidents related to loss of
engine power could be avoided if the pilots were "Up to speed" on power off
landing techniques.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
>What can we do to improve human factor accident rates? First, we can try
>to understand the various causes. One very promising model breaks human
>factor accidnets into lapses, mistakes and violations.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
http://wiki.matronics.com
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: To paint or not to paint |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
leave it as bare unpolished aluminum. Unless you live in a very
corrosive environment, it'll last longer than you will.
On Jul 17, 2006, at 2:16 PM, raymondj wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "raymondj"
> <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
>
> Much of the discussion about paint or not seems to revolve around
> appearance. I'm trying maximize my efficiency (be lazy) when it
> comes to the
> finish. I understand the importance of corrosion protection, but I'm
> wondering if there is some process out there that offers adequate
> protection, though it may look bad, with less work than either
> paint or
> polish.
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
> Corvair core acquired
>
> -----Original Message-----
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 35
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| Subject: | Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane insurance. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Intersting comparison,
Especially as when one ten place airplane crashes with all jumpers on
board tends to skew the statistics.
Frank
HDS.... Sold!
500 jumps
RV7a...almost ready...As is my old skydiving rig for the first
flight...:)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Chapman
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:09 PM
insurance.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman <pchapman@ionsys.com>
The discussion here has been about the relative risks of general
aviation vs. driving. Out of curiosity I once looked at another
comparison of fatality rates, that of flying homebuilts vs. skydiving.
What follows is something I wrote to the EAA. The numbers are a bit old
because it was written in 1997. The EAA didn't publish it, so I tried
again with the smaller Canadian equivalent (RAA), but I heard nothing
from them either. While statistics are a tricky thing to interpret, you
can judge whether they didn't believe the interpretation of the data, or
didn't like the message!
=========== One version of the letter was this:
Homebuilt Aircraft & Relative Risk
Message 36
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
I get ya Ron. My mistake. My original post said Folks call it
"architectural". I asked a guy at a metal supplier for 6061 in that size, He
said "No, we don't carry any of that "architectural" or odd shaped stuff,
all of our angles are the same dimensions on both sides". Because of this, I
have come to think of it that way, because they don't seem to make anything
less than "square"--for lack of a better term--in 6061-T6. I can see how
this could cause a misunderstanding. And how I confused it in my own head
(hate it when that happens) But don't worry, I would never use 6063 on my
plane. I do know the difference.
My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for this angle
(for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say no. What
say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop)
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Butterfield
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:44 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield <rbutterfield@mebtel.net>
kevinbonds wrote:
> Yeah it's "extruded" but the "architectural" refers to it being different
lengths on each side.
NO!
Sorry for shouting, but this wouldn't be so critical if "architectural"
weren't usually 6063 which is HALF AS STRONG as 6061, which is itself
slightly less strong than 2024.
Architectural refers to the metal's intended environment, and the alloy
chosen to optimize it's service life in that environment.
For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to
"aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063.
6061 is often referred to as "aircraft" grade even though it is often
used for other things. 6063 is usually what you get when you order
"architectural" grade; the alloy is optimized for corrosion resistance,
not strength.
Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as
compared to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy
visual identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or
appearance (square).
--
Regards,
RonB
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Send an e-mail to ZAC and ask, I suspect 2024-T3 will work just fine.
You may have to pay a little more attention to corrosion control. As
I understand it, 2024 is stronger than 6061 but less corrosion
resistant. Some of the working properties are different as well.
On Jul 17, 2006, at 3:50 PM, kevinbonds wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds"
> <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
>
> I get ya Ron. My mistake. My original post said Folks call it
> "architectural". I asked a guy at a metal supplier for 6061 in that
> size, He
> said "No, we don't carry any of that "architectural" or odd shaped
> stuff,
> all of our angles are the same dimensions on both sides". Because
> of this, I
> have come to think of it that way, because they don't seem to make
> anything
> less than "square"--for lack of a better term--in 6061-T6. I can
> see how
> this could cause a misunderstanding. And how I confused it in my
> own head
> (hate it when that happens) But don't worry, I would never use 6063
> on my
> plane. I do know the difference.
>
> My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for
> this angle
> (for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say
> no. What
> say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop)
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
> Nashville TN
>
> 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
>
> Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach |
Hello,
Our Dewey Beach Condominium is located right on the beach (no streets to
cross at all). This beautiful condo has a wonderful view of the beach which
is only steps from the front door of the complex. It sleeps up to four
persons and is still available this summer for the following three weeks:
July 28th - August 4th (reduced rate to $1000)
August 25-Sept 1st ($1200)
Sept 22-29 ($600) (water is still of a swimmable temperature)
(Pets are Not Allowed. No Exceptions!!)
On the beach, in Dewey Beach -- Our studio condominium is available for
rental on a weekly basis (sometimes we rent it for 5 nights, if we do not
have a weekly rental). If you are looking for relaxation, this is it. We
are only a few steps from the beach. Take a dip and the pool or hot tub,
sunbathe on the beach, swim in the ocean and go surf fishing. There are
many nearby restaurants, shops and marinas. It's only a short drive to three
outlet malls with over 140 stores, and Delaware has no sales tax! Sailing on
the bay, tennis, surf fishing/charter boats, numerous golf courses, fitness
centers, day spas and casinos are only a few of the nearby activities
available. At night, Dewey Beach and nearby Rehobeth Beach gets moving with
a plethora of restaurants and night spots. We love our little condo at the
beach and am sure that you will, too. Come to Dewey Beach this year and see
for yourself.
Linda & Jim Pellien
Accommodations:
bullet
Studio has a double fold-out "Murphy" bed plus a queen sleep-sofa (Max = 4
persons)
bullet
Dorm-Size Refrigerator
bullet
Two Burner Stove Top
bullet
Dishes - Cookware, Etc.
bullet
Coffee Maker
bullet
Toaster
bullet
Cable TV/HBO
bullet
Stereo - Cassetter Player
bullet
Solarium Area With Dining Table
bullet
Outdoor Swimming Pool
bullet
Hot Tub & Sauna
bullet
Bicycles
bullet
Videos
bullet
Outdoor Grill
bullet
Commercial Washer/Dryer
bullet
Ice Machine
bullet
Popcorn, Coffee/Tea Available in the Lobby
bullet
Daily Housekeeping
Linda & Jim Pellien
jim@pellien.com
703-313-4818
Message 39
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Ron,
You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I thought was 6061 from a local
supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and square inside corner.
And this was the extrusions for my gear (TD)!!
Thanks for the heads-up!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to
"aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063.
Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as
compared to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy
visual identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or
appearance (square).
--
Regards,
RonB
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield <rbutterfield@mebtel.net>
I only know enough to be dangerous, so take this for what it's worth ;-)
The best I can tell, 2024 is slightly stronger than 6061, as well as
slightly more susceptible to corrosion.
For the words of someone smarter than me, go to:
http://www.zenithair.com//misc/pr-7-kp.htm
and scroll down to the subheading "How It's Built":
"Structurally, the CH 701 is built almost entirely of
corrosion-resistant 6061-T6 aluminum, which normally requires no zinc
chromating for preservation. The more common 2024-T3 is slightly
stronger but would not have the same enduring qualities in its
unprotected state. "
kevinbonds wrote:
>
> My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for this angle
> (for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say no. What
> say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop)
--
Regards,
RonB
Message 41
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| Subject: | Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman <pchapman@ionsys.com>
At 15:48 17-07-06, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>Especially as when one ten place airplane crashes with all jumpers on
>board tends to skew the statistics.
Thanks - It reminds me that in my post I failed to note that the
skydiving statistics apply only to the skydive from exit to landing.
Skydiving aircraft crashes, which take an additional toll, are by
convention tallied separately. So the analysis doesn't change, if one
is comparing homebuilts to the actual skydive, but not the airlift to altitude.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach |
This doesn't have anything to do with Zenith airplanes, or aviation in
general. Why is it on this list? And why should it be archived?
George
Do not archive----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pellien
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach
Hello,
Our Dewey Beach Condominium is located right on the beach (no streets
to cross at all). This beautiful condo has a wonderful view of the
beach which is only steps from the front door of the complex. It sleeps
up to four persons and is still available this summer for the following
three weeks:
July 28th - August 4th (reduced rate to $1000)
August 25-Sept 1st ($1200)
Sept 22-29 ($600) (water is still of a swimmable temperature)
(Pets are Not Allowed. No Exceptions!!)
On the beach, in Dewey Beach -- Our studio condominium is available
for rental on a weekly basis (sometimes we rent it for 5 nights, if we
do not have a weekly rental). If you are looking for relaxation, this is
it. We are only a few steps from the beach. Take a dip and the pool or
hot tub, sunbathe on the beach, swim in the ocean and go surf fishing.
There are many nearby restaurants, shops and marinas. It's only a short
drive to three outlet malls with over 140 stores, and Delaware has no
sales tax! Sailing on the bay, tennis, surf fishing/charter boats,
numerous golf courses, fitness centers, day spas and casinos are only a
few of the nearby activities available. At night, Dewey Beach and nearby
Rehobeth Beach gets moving with a plethora of restaurants and night
spots. We love our little condo at the beach and am sure that you will,
too. Come to Dewey Beach this year and see for yourself.
Linda & Jim Pellien
Accommodations:
Studio has a double fold-out "Murphy" bed plus a queen sleep-sofa
(Max = 4 persons)
Dorm-Size Refrigerator
Two Burner Stove Top
Dishes - Cookware, Etc.
Coffee Maker
Toaster
Cable TV/HBO
Stereo - Cassetter Player
Solarium Area With Dining Table
Outdoor Swimming Pool
Hot Tub & Sauna
Bicycles
Videos
Outdoor Grill
Commercial Washer/Dryer
Ice Machine
Popcorn, Coffee/Tea Available in the Lobby
Daily Housekeeping
Linda & Jim Pellien
jim@pellien.com
703-313-4818
Message 43
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder
workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased
other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that
were square.
Scott Laughlin
--- Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe"
> <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Ron,
>
> You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I
> thought was 6061 from a local
> supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and
> square inside corner.
__________________________________________________
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | RE: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines |
Hi,
I too read the article by Lockwood, but got tired of not knowing if
there's any fuel within driving distance of my hangar in CT that
isn't reformulated with 10% ethanol. I made some calls, and ended up
sending this email to EAA Sport Aviation editorial:
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:53 PM
Hello,
As an owner of a recently completed airplane powered by a Rotax 912S,
I was interested to read Power On in June and July, which discussed
some concerns over ethanol and Rotax engines. I am a resident of
Connecticut, and I thought I ought to pass on some info I got after
contacting several entities involved in fuel distribution,
production, or monitoring. These institutions include the
Independent Connecticut Petroleum Association, the New England Fuel
Institute, the Independent Oil Marketers Association of New England,
The Petroleum Marketers Association of America, and finally the
National Petrochemical and Refiners Association (NPRA). In
particular, the NPRA was most explicit, and there is much information
at www.npra.org for those interested. The bottom line is that all of
the entities felt that Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island
are all offering only reformulated gasoline with a minimum of ten
percent ethanol. This is somewhat disconcerting, as it appears there
is no local option for the desired fuel for these popular engines,
for residents of Southern New England.
Bill Mileski
Ledyard, Connecticut
Message 45
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| Subject: | 601 Hat with tail number |
And just for all of us Taildraggers, Dorothy has modified the logo!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Guys,
Sorry for the shameless plug for my friend, but.
I had my friend make me a custom hat with a picture of Zenith 601 and my
tail number. Now that they have the design in their computer, the cost is
only $15 per hat. Just send them an email with your tail number and the
color you want. You can coordinate payment and shipment with them. I just
liked mine so much I wanted to share! The really cool thing is that Dorothy
is married to a retired SR-71 pilot.
Just go to www.johnsplane.com <http://www.johnsplane.com/> and click on the
picture of the hat.
John
Don not archive
Message 46
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Something must have gotten scrambled in transmission......what the heck is "Dooie
Bitch Condum"?
All I got was some garble about no pets and three photos.
One looks like maybe a hot tub with a spectator area,
One looks like an un-finished construction project,
And the third resembles the parlor of a cat house in some movie.
Where are the airplanes?
Thanks you very much,
Regards to all,
Batteries not included,
Do not archive,
Etc
Zed/701 airplane/R912 engine/a great project to keep idle minds idle
Message 47
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
OK....now what? Anyone got any ideas on how to ID 6061 extruded vs. 6063
extruded?
Gary
FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder
workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased
other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that
were square.
Scott Laughlin
--- Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe"
> <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Ron,
>
> You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I
> thought was 6061 from a local
> supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and
> square inside corner.
__________________________________________________
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties.
Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes and
roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root (called
square root angles). All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied by ZAC have
square edges and roots.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes!
Message 49
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| Subject: | Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? |
I hope someone can steer me in the right direction, 'cause, at this point, I
am just chasing my tail!
601XL, fuselage spar center section, upright supports. The photo guide tells
me to remove one of the uprighs to get to the outboard row of spar mounting
bolt holes. I am to use a drill guide bushing in the hole to drill a pilot
hole in the remaining upright, or a transfer punch. It seems that transfer
punches only come in sets. I only need one size. There is a picture of a drill
guide bushing, but no clue as to where to get one. Any suggestions?
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
I must have spent half a day on line trying to find the spar cap
extrusion before contacting Larry Mac. Duhh!
1. Extrusions of the same alloy can come with either rounded or
square edges.
2. Definitely swipe one of those candles on your dining room table
that have never been lit and put it to use.
3. If you can rig up a little "Splitter" to go down the kerf line to
keep the sides from buckling in, you won't have to muscle your band saw
blade back on the rollers every 5 minutes.
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS being relocated to new shop
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question.
Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic
properties. Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that
have rounded toes and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with
square edges and root
Message 51
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Jay,
Thanks for that, but as you follow the string there were two conflicting
pieces of info. One lister said that you could ID the angle based on shape,
the other lister said NO. Now I have un-identifiable angle and, short of
buying new, don't know if there is a way to ID the 6061.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
_____
Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties.
Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes
and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root
(called square root angles). All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied
by ZAC have square edges and roots.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes!
Message 52
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Just a comment. We use both 2024 & 6063 at the hanger.
We use the 2024 for the airplane (HRII N561FS) and 6063 for the jr.& high
school riveting classes we hold. We cut the 6063 in 3" pieces, drill three
holes in it and attach a .032 plate with three types of rivets & let the
kids take them home. One "pop" rivet, one round head & a flush type. The
students re-drill (battery, cord & air types), debur, counter sink, dimple
and set rivets with a manual "pop" rivet gun, a hand squeezer, a C frame
with rubber mallet & an air hammer with bucking bar.
We use the best materials required for the intended application. The 6063
without the interior web radius is easier to clamp securely to the safety
2X4's.
After 30 years as a plumbing contractor I use "L" & "K" type copper for
pressure air, water lines etc. and type "M" for non-pressure lines, drain
lines & wind chimes. "The best materials required for the intended
application". The "best" use for type M copper (the one with the red
printing) is for wind chimes.
In my not so humble opinion type "M" copper & 6063 angle are best suited for
applications there they support nothing, contain nothing & are cut into
small pieces. KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:43 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield
> <rbutterfield@mebtel.net>
>
>
> kevinbonds wrote:
>> Yeah its extruded but the architectural refers to it being different
>> lengths on each side.
>
> NO!
>
> Sorry for shouting, but this wouldn't be so critical if "architectural"
> weren't usually 6063 which is HALF AS STRONG as 6061, which is itself
> slightly less strong than 2024.
>
> Architectural refers to the metal's intended environment, and the alloy
> chosen to optimize it's service life in that environment.
>
> For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to
> "aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063.
>
> 6061 is often referred to as "aircraft" grade even though it is often used
> for other things. 6063 is usually what you get when you order
> "architectural" grade; the alloy is optimized for corrosion resistance,
> not strength.
>
> Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as compared
> to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy visual
> identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or appearance
> (square).
> Regards,
> RonB
Message 53
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| Subject: | Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? |
Jay, Harbor Freight has a cheap set of transfer punches and trust me
once you have them there is no way you will only use just the one. I
have used several different ones in the planes and they come in real
handy sometimes.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK
"http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK
"http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 6:05 PM
I hope someone can steer me in the right direction, 'cause, at this
point, I am just chasing my tail!
601XL, fuselage spar center section, upright supports. The photo guide
tells me to remove one of the uprighs to get to the outboard row of spar
mounting bolt holes. I am to use a drill guide bushing in the hole to
drill a pilot hole in the remaining upright, or a transfer punch. It
seems that transfer punches only come in sets. I only need one size.
There is a picture of a drill guide bushing, but no clue as to where to
get one. Any suggestions?
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
7/14/2006
--
7/14/2006
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
OK I don't know if this will help but...... I watched a TV show once where
they were showing how they identify aluminum at a recycling plant and they had
a hand held gadget that they would put against the aluminum and it would tell
them what it was by identifying it's properties. So you might try calling
your recycler and taking small pieces to them to identify.
Jeff
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
I don't have a camera here at the plant, but I do have Ryerson steel's data
book. From the Aluminum structural shapes section:
American Standard: Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles,
channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends.
Sharp Corner: Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are
sharp, with nearly invisible radii.
but ONLY on the inside. There is also a filet where the two legs join. If
you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square, if you put a
square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet, and
the legs are tapered.
The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not a
perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside and
it will measure square. There is no taper of the flanges or legs.
When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily available
in the "American Standard" shape.
If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but
is available in 6063-T52.
Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals"
book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52 angle.
When you go to Home Depot, they usually have the sharp corner version and it
is usually marked "architectural" It is made for attaching awnings to your
RV, not building wing spars.
not available as stock items. Anyone can have them made, but the minimum
run would probably be 1000 lbs plus. ZA does this as they are constantly
selling their sizes. So in the case of the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093, you buy that
size but in the .125 thickness and you order some longer rivets. In the
case of the 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 (is that right?) you will have to buy 1 1/2 x 1
1/2 angle and cut one leg down as instructed by Larry Mac and the other
Builders. As Builders have stated, you can't find the ZA sizes as stock
items. So order from ZA or get out the saw, set the fench, steal the
candles and start cutting!
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
> FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder
> workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased
> other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that
> were square.
>
> Scott Laughlin
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Gary, My only suggestion would be to trace the heritage of the stull you have
on hand. In other words, go to whomever sold it to you, and if necessary, to
the one that sold it to them. Someone along the line should know what it is.
Good luck! - Jay
Do not archive
Message 57
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| Subject: | Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
Jay--
I went through the same self discussion before I decided to just make a
transfer punch. I had a piece of 5/16 steel rod and turned it in a drill
with a file. Final tool worked fine. It wasn't hardened but I only had to
use it for 4 holes.
George May
601XL 912s
>From: Jaybannist@cs
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? |
Mark, Thanks. I have never been in a Harbour Freight store. I didn't even
know they had stores here in the Dallas area. Guess it's about time I paid
them a visit. I see, on their on-line catalog, a transfer punch set for about
eight bucks. What I have seen elsewhere were ten times that!
Thanks again - Jay
Do not archive
Message 59
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Randy,
You are most helpful.
Since this was not a special order item that I acquired (1 1/2" x 1 1/2"
ext.aluminum), and since it has sharp corners and no inside web, and since
it has uniformly thick flanges, chances are that it is 6063. Do I understand
correctly?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
American Standard: Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles,
channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends.
Sharp Corner: Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are
sharp, with nearly invisible radii.
but ONLY on the inside. There is also a filet where the two legs join. If
you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square, if you put a
square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet, and
the legs are tapered.
The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not a
perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside and
it will measure square. There is no taper of the flanges or legs.
When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily available
in the "American Standard" shape.
If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but
is available in 6063-T52.
Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals"
book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52 angle.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
> FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder
> workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased
> other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that
> were square.
>
> Scott Laughlin
Message 60
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Thanks, Jay. He'll look funny walking around with it stuck up his
you-know-what..
Gary
Do not archive
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:35 PM
Gary, My only suggestion would be to trace the heritage of the stull you
have on hand. In other words, go to whomever sold it to you, and if
necessary, to the one that sold it to them. Someone along the line should
know what it is.
Good luck! - Jay
Do not archive
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Gary, I typed "stull" and meant to type "stuff." Sorry. I am recovering
from a detatched retina and can't see that well right now, especially errors!
Jay
Do not archive
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
Somehow a sentence was deleted from my previous post, the lead in of the
fourth paragraph. I added it below:
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing
> I don't have a camera here at the plant, but I do have Ryerson steel's
data
> book. From the Aluminum structural shapes section:
>
> American Standard: Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles,
> channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends.
>
> Sharp Corner: Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are
> sharp, with nearly invisible radii.
>
> American Standard shapes have tapered flanges or legs, but ONLY on the
inside. There is also a filet where the two legs join. If
> you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square, if you put a
> square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet,
and
> the legs are tapered.
>
> The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not
a
> perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside
and
> it will measure square. There is no taper of the flanges or legs.
>
> When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily
available
> in the "American Standard" shape.
>
> If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but
> is available in 6063-T52.
>
> Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals"
> book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52
angle.
>
> When you go to Home Depot, they usually have the sharp corner version and
it
> is usually marked "architectural" It is made for attaching awnings to
your
> RV, not building wing spars.
>
> not available as stock items. Anyone can have them made, but the minimum
> run would probably be 1000 lbs plus. ZA does this as they are constantly
> selling their sizes. So in the case of the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093, you buy that
> size but in the .125 thickness and you order some longer rivets. In the
> case of the 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 (is that right?) you will have to buy 1 1/2 x
1
> 1/2 angle and cut one leg down as instructed by Larry Mac and the other
> Builders. As Builders have stated, you can't find the ZA sizes as stock
> items. So order from ZA or get out the saw, set the fench, steal the
> candles and start cutting!
>
> Regards,
>
> Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
Message 63
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|
Please advise what GPS I should buy to use here on the ranch
http://www.directcon.net/reedranch/
on the ground as well as later in my 701 when I get it built? How do you
correlate Latitude and Longitude with township and range ?
Mil Reed
Message 64
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|
| Subject: | ZA extrusion photo |
OK, now I'm at home where I have both a camera and extrusions I
purchased from ZA. This is my first attempt at attaching a photo to the
list so wish me luck. Referring to my previous posts, the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093
seems to be the "square corner" specification. There is no filet on the
inside and the legs or flanges are a constant size with no taper. The
larger 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 extrusion meets neither specification I described.
It does not have "square corners" on the inside, it has a filet, yet it has
no taper on the legs or flanges, so it really doesn't meet the "American
Standard" spec I described.
When you order from the mill in quantity, you can have any shape made of
any material made to any specification. Is this what ZA is doing?
Obviously, I don't have the complete answer. I wish I had a sample of the
"American Standard" cross section to compare what ZA furnishes.
I now believe that ZA extrusions are "mill specials" that you wouldn't
find in any normal stocking situation. That doesn't mean that you couldn't
use readily available stock sizes and alter them to "near" ZA shape.
I've done my best to determine what is the real story here, maybe other
listers can add to this story.
Best Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, NV
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Gary-
Two things.
1. Extrusions I bought from Wick's were square, while the ones from ACS
were rounded. I have no idea whether this is their stocking policy or
coincidence.
2. Anyone dealing in critical materials should have "Material Certs"
that come in with every shipment on file. Kick back, relax, and ask to see
the applicable cert, which will tell you the exact composition of the alloy.
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS being relocated to new shop
Townville, Pa
>
>
>
Message 66
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|
| Subject: | Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? |
HF stuff usually isn't pretty, but it does the job.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS being relocated to new shop
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches?
Mark, Thanks. I have never been in a Harbour Freight store. I didn't
even know they had stores here in the Dallas area. Guess it's about
time I paid them a visit. I see, on their on-line catalog, a transfer
punch set for about eight bucks. What I have seen elsewhere were ten
times that!
Thanks again - Jay
Do not archive
Message 67
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|
Jari,
Looks like a very nice paint job - keep up the good work.--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus
free email and attachments.
Message 68
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| Subject: | Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach |
Sorry to Everybody. Somehow the Zenith List emeail address got into my Surf
Club Mailing List.
Apologies across the board.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
Sky Bryce Airport (VG18)
Basye, VA
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:49 PM
This doesn't have anything to do with Zenith airplanes, or aviation in
general. Why is it on this list? And why should it be archived?
George
Do not archive----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:20 PM
Hello,
Our Dewey Beach Condominium is located right on the beach (no streets to
cross at all). This beautiful condo has a wonderful view of the beach which
is only steps from the front door of the complex. It sleeps up to four
persons and is still available this summer for the following three weeks:
July 28th - August 4th (reduced rate to $1000)
August 25-Sept 1st ($1200)
Sept 22-29 ($600) (water is still of a swimmable temperature)
(Pets are Not Allowed. No Exceptions!!)
On the beach, in Dewey Beach -- Our studio condominium is available for
rental on a weekly basis (sometimes we rent it for 5 nights, if we do not
have a weekly rental). If you are looking for relaxation, this is it. We
are only a few steps from the beach. Take a dip and the pool or hot tub,
sunbathe on the beach, swim in the ocean and go surf fishing. There are
many nearby restaurants, shops and marinas. It's only a short drive to three
outlet malls with over 140 stores, and Delaware has no sales tax! Sailing on
the bay, tennis, surf fishing/charter boats, numerous golf courses, fitness
centers, day spas and casinos are only a few of the nearby activities
available. At night, Dewey Beach and nearby Rehobeth Beach gets moving with
a plethora of restaurants and night spots. We love our little condo at the
beach and am sure that you will, too. Come to Dewey Beach this year and see
for yourself.
Linda & Jim Pellien
Accommodations:
bullet
Studio has a double fold-out "Murphy" bed plus a queen sleep-sofa (Max = 4
persons)
bullet
Dorm-Size Refrigerator
bullet
Two Burner Stove Top
bullet
Dishes - Cookware, Etc.
bullet
Coffee Maker
bullet
Toaster
bullet
Cable TV/HBO
bullet
Stereo - Cassetter Player
bullet
Solarium Area With Dining Table
bullet
Outdoor Swimming Pool
bullet
Hot Tub & Sauna
bullet
Bicycles
bullet
Videos
bullet
Outdoor Grill
bullet
Commercial Washer/Dryer
bullet
Ice Machine
bullet
Popcorn, Coffee/Tea Available in the Lobby
bullet
Daily Housekeeping
Linda & Jim Pellien
jim@pellien.com
703-313-4818
Message 69
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| Subject: | Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach |
Jim,
This type information has no place on this list. If anymore like it is put
up, I will simply get off the list. Go rent it to someone who cares.
I hope the master of the list removes you from the list.
Do Not Archive
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
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Message 70
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| Subject: | ZA extrusion photo |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Randy,
Your diligence is MOST appreciated. I think I will follow BN's suggestion
and return to my supplier looking for "Material Certs." Got plenty of
time...
Gary
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy L. Thwing
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 5:50 PM
OK, now I'm at home where I have both a camera and extrusions I
purchased from ZA. This is my first attempt at attaching a photo to the
list so wish me luck. Referring to my previous posts, the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093
seems to be the "square corner" specification. There is no filet on the
inside and the legs or flanges are a constant size with no taper. The
larger 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 extrusion meets neither specification I described.
It does not have "square corners" on the inside, it has a filet, yet it has
no taper on the legs or flanges, so it really doesn't meet the "American
Standard" spec I described.
When you order from the mill in quantity, you can have any shape made of
any material made to any specification. Is this what ZA is doing?
Obviously, I don't have the complete answer. I wish I had a sample of the
"American Standard" cross section to compare what ZA furnishes.
I now believe that ZA extrusions are "mill specials" that you wouldn't
find in any normal stocking situation. That doesn't mean that you couldn't
use readily available stock sizes and alter them to "near" ZA shape.
I've done my best to determine what is the real story here, maybe other
listers can add to this story.
Best Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, NV
Message 71
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Bill,
I'll follow-up with the supplier to see Material Certs. If I cannot verify,
then I'll simply repurchase a verifiable product.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
2. Anyone dealing in critical materials should have "Material Certs"
that come in with every shipment on file. Kick back, relax, and ask to see
the applicable cert, which will tell you the exact composition of the alloy.
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS being relocated to new shop
Townville, Pa
>
>
>
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach |
Jim,
Apology accepted.
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
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Message 73
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Chances are it's 5052, which is the 'standard' angle shipped by most distributors
if you don't specify 6061-T6. Your best bet is to call the company you
bought it from and ask for the material certification that should have come with
your order. Most companies add a surcharge for the certs, but it's sometimes
the only way you can be sure you're getting what you ordered. Angle and Extrusion
aren't always ink marked as aluminum sheet is.
If the company you purchased the extrusion from doesn't offer certs, switch
companies. McMaster Carr carries everything you might need if you can't find
another source, although they are about 10% more expensive on average.
If you're still set on identifying your particular extrusion, you won't be
happy. The equipment to test is available, but runs about $1000 for the temper
test alone. You still won't know the metallurgy at that point. You DON'T want
to put a softer or more brittle type of aluminum on the aircraft, especially
the if we're talking about the longerons.
Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary
Boothe"
Randy,
You are most helpful.
Since this was not a special order item that I acquired (1 1/2" x 1 1/2"
ext.aluminum), and since it has sharp corners and no inside web, and since
it has uniformly thick flanges, chances are that it is 6063. Do I understand
correctly?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
American Standard: Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles,
channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends.
Sharp Corner: Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are
sharp, with nearly invisible radii.
but ONLY on the inside. There is also a filet where the two legs join. If
you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square, if you put a
square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet, and
the legs are tapered.
The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not a
perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside and
it will measure square. There is no taper of the flanges or legs.
When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily available
in the "American Standard" shape.
If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but
is available in 6063-T52.
Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals"
book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52 angle.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
> FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder
> workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased
> other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that
> were square.
>
> Scott Laughlin
Message 74
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Milburn,
396 with weather overlay $2495. Can buy a cradle for it in your airplane
and another for your car. Plop it into your aircraft to see aviation
information (moving map), as well as weather conditions via satellite,.you
can also see the locations of other nearby aircraft, just like what the
controllers see, for all aircraft that are using a transponder, provided
you also have the GTX-330 Transponder with Traffic Information Service
(TIS).
Then take the 396 out of the aircraft after your flight and put it into the
automobile cradle and see a moving map of roadways, interstates, restaurant
locations and stores.
There are many less capable GPS systems from Garmin starting at about $400.
Just do a google search on "Aviation GPS" and have fund learning about all
of the new GPS offerings. The 396 is probably the best price/performance
Portable GPS on the market as I speak.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
Sky Bryce Airport (VG18)
Basye, VA
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Milburn Reed
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:08 PM
Please advise what GPS I should buy to use here on the ranch
http://www.directcon.net/reedranch/
on the ground as well as later in my 701 when I get it built? How do you
correlate Latitude and Longitude with township and range ?
Mil Reed
Message 75
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the attach photo out of the "Ryerson" stock list handbook, page 340 might
shed some light on the question concerning the angle shapes.
R. Johnson / 601-HDS
do not archive
Message 76
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| Subject: | ZA extrusion photo |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Randy, all the extrusions I bought have the round internal corner - and where all
printed with
"6061-T6", measurements and mill name (I presume that was mill name).
At the place where I bought some of the material, I heard somebody explaining to
a new employee
that the extrusions with the round internal corner (filet) is "structural".
Now, for peace of mind, may I suggest: get rid of the unknown material and get
some from a
reliable source. I don't know what is the current price of 6061-T6 extrusions,
but it can't be so
high that it would justify a full scale investigation on the origins of this piece...
There ya go, my 2 cents.
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Montreal, Canada
--- "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com> a crit :
> OK, now I'm at home where I have both a camera and extrusions I
> purchased from ZA. This is my first attempt at attaching a photo to the
> list so wish me luck. Referring to my previous posts, the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093
> seems to be the "square corner" specification.
__________________________________________________________
Message 77
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| Subject: | Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach |
Steve,
For gosh sakes, I apologized to the group. What more do you want? It was a
mistake.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
Sky Bryce Airport (VG18)
Basye, VA
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hulland
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:35 PM
Jim,
This type information has no place on this list. If anymore like it is put
up, I will simply get off the list. Go rent it to someone who cares.
I hope the master of the list removes you from the list.
Do Not Archive
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
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Message 78
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| Subject: | Re: To paint or not to paint |
Living up here in Seattle, I plan on painting for two reasons
1) Seattle is a highly corrosive environment ( physically, not socially :-)
).
2) I'm spending a lot of money and a lot of time on a project that is a
different type of plane, so why shouldn't I make it look different?
These planes are expressions of ourselves, so I'm choosing to give my bird a
very unique paint scheme. I also like the look of shiny polished airplanes
like Cessna 120/140s.
The point is the choice is yours, just like the panel you build up.
-John in Seattle
On 7/17/06, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> leave it as bare unpolished aluminum. Unless you live in a very
> corrosive environment, it'll last longer than you will.
>
>
> On Jul 17, 2006, at 2:16 PM, raymondj wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "raymondj"
> > <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
> >
> > Much of the discussion about paint or not seems to revolve around
> > appearance. I'm trying maximize my efficiency (be lazy) when it
> > comes to the
> > finish. I understand the importance of corrosion protection, but I'm
> > wondering if there is some process out there that offers adequate
> > protection, though it may look bad, with less work than either
> > paint or
> > polish.
> >
> > Raymond Julian
> > Kettle River, MN.
> > Corvair core acquired
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL,
> RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
> do not archive.
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
Message 79
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| Subject: | most anti-aviation city in the nation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
(this does apply to the aviation issue)Flying craft means any vehicle
designed for navigation in the air or through outer space, including
but not limited to airplanes, helicopters and hot air balloons.
At what point does a series of parts become an airplane? I notice it
doesn't include ultralites which by US federal law are described as vehicles
and specifically not airplanes! I wonder if this could be expanded to the
huge fins on the 60s Chryslers After all they were designed to be
reminiscent of rockets of the day.
Enclose the carport with canvas...
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Keith Ashcraft
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:59 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: most anti-aviation city in the nation
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft
> <keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
>
> All.
> This information has been floating around in a couple of
> other "Groups"
> that I belong to. It might be worth checking out if you are in the
> Florida area.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/browse_t
> hread/thread/688f409b9c514e53/25ddcbef1957bb52#25ddcbef1957bb52
>
>
> Keith
>
> ************************************
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> by this e-mail.
> ************************************
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 80
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| Subject: | ZA extrusion photo |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Carlos,
I guess I started this, and I can't agree more with you. If I cannot resolve
it with a simple question and response I'll buy from a more reputable
dealer.
Forget what I said about sticking it up his you-know-what. After all, he's
bigger than me!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Now, for peace of mind, may I suggest: get rid of the unknown material and
get some from a
reliable source. I don't know what is the current price of 6061-T6
extrusions, but it can't be so
high that it would justify a full scale investigation on the origins of this
piece...
There ya go, my 2 cents.
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Montreal, Canada
--- "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com> a crit :
> OK, now I'm at home where I have both a camera and extrusions I
> purchased from ZA. This is my first attempt at attaching a photo to the
> list so wish me luck. Referring to my previous posts, the 3/4 x 3/4 x
.093
> seems to be the "square corner" specification.
__________________________________________________________
Message 81
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| Subject: | Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Use the 2024-T3 but be aware that it has significantly less corrosion
resistance than 6061-T6. You want to store it in a safe dry area and
prime it thoroughly at the earliest possible opportunity.
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: kevinbonds
I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is
2024-T3. I'm having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call
it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down
some 6061? Source?
Message 82
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
Hello Russell:
That is the Ryerson book I referred to in my earlier post. I did not
bring up the "aluminum Association" type as that type refers to section with
three elements, i.e. web, flange and flange. A angle section has only two
sections, i.e. flange and flange. If you compare the Ryerson drawings with
my photo of ZA furnished extrusions, the small extrusion compares with the
"sharp corner" type, whereas the large extrusion doesn't quite compare with
either Sharp corner or American Standard as the flanges or legs have no
interior taper. Again, ZA must have this made to their spec and is not
standard, but we seek further input.
As another lister has just pointed out, the "American Standard" profile
of fileted web with tapered flanges is usually referred to as the
"structural" type where the "sharp corner" type is referred to as
"architectural" type.
> the attach photo out of the "Ryerson" stock list handbook, page 340 might
> shed some light on the question concerning the angle shapes.
>
> R. Johnson / 601-HDS
Message 83
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| Subject: | What i did on my summer vacation, OR New paint |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" <N601RT@comcast.net>
After flying 550 hours during the last 3+ years without paint on my plane, it finally
looks finished. On Sat 7/1/06, I flew to Lake California [Lake California
is near Redding, Ca] and was greeted by several friends. Before flying to Lake
Ca, I did a bunch of prep work which started with cleaning the entire airframe
with alcohol. Other prep included wiring the plane for a wig-wag (alternating
flasher), making a landing light lens for the right wing, making an additional
small rib to support the landing light mount, modifying the Zenair muffler
so the exhaust exits just behind the firewall and is pointed rearward instead
of downward, making initial fiberglass part to update the bottom of the lower
cowl to compliment the modified exhaust.
When I arrived, my friend Larry and I started working on the plane. Clean with alcohol, clean with detergent, repeat several times. Also body work to remove flaws from construction and small wear and tear irregularities from the past. Larrys work for the body work was amazing. I also took the opportunity to repair/replace the strobe power supply and install a modified Duck Works (http://www.romeolima.com/Duckworks/RVLightKits/rvlightkits.htm ) landing light in the right wing to compliment the one in the left wing. I replaced the capacator in the strobe power supply, but that did not fix the power supply.
We used a 2 part PPG Shopline epoxy primer and three part PPG Shopline acrylic
paint. Larry did all the spraying. The dark horizontal stripe is purple. The red
is a very close match to the red in the Arplast propeller. I flew back to Oregon
on Sunday, 7/9/06.
One of the attached pictures is N601RT just after painting. The other is N601RT
and N601LG.
See you at Oshkosh. I expect to arrive Monday and leave Friday.
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped,
562hrs, 674 landings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48145#48145
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_2183_medium_105.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc_0214_medium_699.jpg
Message 84
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
Good to know. I assumed all "extruded" angles had square edges (of course
you know what they say about assuming . . .).
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:55 PM
Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties.
Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes
and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root
(called square root angles). All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied
by ZAC have square edges and roots.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes!
Message 85
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| Subject: | Another Scrap-builder Question. |
I meant to say, "I assumed all extruded angle had ROUND edges". I'm so
confused. But thanks for the info.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinbonds
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:58 PM
Good to know. I assumed all "extruded" angles had square edges (of course
you know what they say about assuming . . .).
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:55 PM
Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties.
Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes
and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root
(called square root angles). All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied
by ZAC have square edges and roots.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes!
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