---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/17/06: 85 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Dave) 2. 03:43 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 05:29 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Jim Pellien) 4. 05:29 AM - most anti-aviation city in the nation (Keith Ashcraft) 5. 05:44 AM - Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts (N5SL) 6. 06:24 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Frank Roskind) 7. 07:06 AM - Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines (Mike Fothergill) 8. 07:16 AM - Builders' Hint No. 29 (Zed Smith) 9. 07:27 AM - Re: Where can I buy Cortec 373? (Al Young) 10. 08:07 AM - Painting... (Jari Kaija) 11. 08:33 AM - Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts (Gig Giacona) 12. 08:42 AM - Stopped Prop in Glide (FLOYD JAMISON) 13. 08:59 AM - Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines (N601RT) 14. 09:00 AM - Re: To paint or not to paint (Geoff Heap) 15. 09:15 AM - Re: The Bends! (kevinbonds) 16. 09:22 AM - Re: Question for finished builders (Geoff Heap) 17. 09:23 AM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 09:39 AM - Re: The Bends! (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 19. 09:46 AM - Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds) 20. 09:52 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Tom and Bren Henderson) 21. 10:06 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe) 22. 10:27 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds) 23. 11:06 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (LarryMcFarland) 24. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts (N5SL) 25. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: To paint or not to paint (raymondj) 26. 11:29 AM - 601 Hat with tail number (John Hines) 27. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: lower nose gear support bolts- Another Picture (N5SL) 28. 11:42 AM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Ron Butterfield) 29. 11:50 AM - Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines (george may) 30. 12:17 PM - Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane insurance. (Peter Chapman) 31. 12:24 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (B Johnson) 32. 12:43 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (N5SL) 33. 12:49 PM - Re: Airplane insurance. (Frank Roskind) 34. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: To paint or not to paint (Bryan Martin) 35. 12:51 PM - Re: Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane insurance. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 36. 12:53 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds) 37. 01:26 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Bryan Martin) 38. 01:26 PM - Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Jim Pellien) 39. 01:26 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe) 40. 01:38 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Ron Butterfield) 41. 01:50 PM - Re: Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane (Peter Chapman) 42. 01:51 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (George Swinford) 43. 02:14 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (N5SL) 44. 02:16 PM - Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines (Bill Mileski) 45. 02:28 PM - Re: 601 Hat with tail number (Gary Boothe) 46. 02:31 PM - Rent What? (Zed Smith) 47. 02:35 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe) 48. 02:58 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Jaybannist@cs.com) 49. 03:08 PM - Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (Jaybannist@cs.com) 50. 03:23 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Bill Naumuk) 51. 03:34 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe) 52. 03:34 PM - Another Scrap-builder Question. (JOHN STARN) 53. 03:42 PM - Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (Zodie Rocket) 54. 03:54 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 55. 04:30 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Randy L. Thwing) 56. 04:39 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Jaybannist@cs.com) 57. 04:46 PM - Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (george may) 58. 04:49 PM - Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (Jaybannist@cs.com) 59. 04:49 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe) 60. 04:51 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe) 61. 04:55 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Jaybannist@cs.com) 62. 05:07 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Randy L. Thwing) 63. 05:11 PM - GPS (Milburn Reed) 64. 05:56 PM - ZA extrusion photo (Randy L. Thwing) 65. 06:08 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Bill Naumuk) 66. 06:08 PM - Re: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? (Bill Naumuk) 67. 06:20 PM - Re: Painting... (Steve Hulland) 68. 06:31 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Jim Pellien) 69. 06:38 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Steve Hulland) 70. 06:43 PM - Re: ZA extrusion photo (Gary Boothe) 71. 06:45 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Gary Boothe) 72. 06:48 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Steve Hulland) 73. 06:50 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Tom and Bren Henderson) 74. 07:02 PM - Re: GPS (Jim Pellien) 75. 07:02 PM - extrusions (Russell J.) 76. 07:03 PM - RE : ZA extrusion photo (Carlos Sa) 77. 07:10 PM - Re: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach (Jim Pellien) 78. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: To paint or not to paint (John Marzulli) 79. 08:14 PM - Re: most anti-aviation city in the nation (Noel Loveys) 80. 08:51 PM - Re: ZA extrusion photo (Gary Boothe) 81. 09:09 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (Edward Moody II) 82. 09:14 PM - Re: extrusions (Randy L. Thwing) 83. 09:45 PM - What i did on my summer vacation, OR New paint (N601RT) 84. 10:02 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds) 85. 10:25 PM - Re: Another Scrap-builder Question. (kevinbonds) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:11 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Airplane insurance. Interesting figures. I drive a motorcycle, so it appears I can take off in an aircraft that's already on fire and still be safer in the air! ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Winger To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 2:48 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Airplane insurance. The comparison cited, while interesting, misses a fundamental difference between the word "accident" when applied to cars and light aricraft. The chances of walking away from that oft-mentioned auto accident "on the way to the airport" are presumably greater than the kind of "accident" you may have after leaving terra firma in a light airplane. While not every GA accident is fatal (thankfully), it would be more appropriate to consider the relevant statistics for "Fatalities Per 100 Million Vehicle Miles Driven." An interpolation between the rate of overall accidents (235 per 100 million miles) and that of fatal accidents in autos ( 1.44 per 100 million miles) is probably more realistic. In that light, the numbers strongly indicate -- as the Kings have said --that driving your Honda Pilot to the airport looks a whole lot safer than your activities when you become the pilot of your small plane. Check out http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/ for the fuller picture. Larry Winger Scratch building 601XL do not archive On 7/16/06, Paul Mulwitz wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I guess the Kings know something the government statistics people don't know. I did a little hunting on the Internet for accident statistics. Here are the results: GA accident rate last year was 6.83 accidents per 100,000 hours. Automobile accident rate (1999) was 235 accidents per 100 million miles. Dividing that by 50 mph average (my number) you get 117 accidents per 2 million hours or 58 per million hours. This translates to 5.8 per 100,000 hours or approximately the same rate per hour as general aviation. In their piece the Kings claim GA accident rates are 7 times that of autos. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is the Kings that are ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:27 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Airplane insurance. After looking at the referenced table, I am led to believe that you are more likely to be in an auto accident, but more likely to be killed in a general aviation accident than in a car. (I noticed a little arithmetic error in my earlier post - the GA accident rate should be about half the auto rate when based on 100,000 hours) I don't want to sell the King's point of view short. There is certainly need for pilots to be aware of risks to their passengers and themselves. This is even more obvious when you consider the vast majority of aircraft accidents result from pilot error. I didn't see any equivalent statistics on auto accidents, but I presume the most common auto accident is a collision with another auto which implies the other driver is just as likely to be at fault as you are. I know most airplane accidents are not collisions with other airplanes. Perhaps the most interesting issue in this whole story is the helplessness passengers in either an auto or airplane have with regard to accidents. In either case they can only hope their number is not up yet. At least the pilot or driver has at least some control over his destiny. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 10:48 PM 7/16/2006, you wrote: >The comparison cited, while interesting, misses a fundamental >difference between the word "accident" when applied to cars and >light aricraft. > >The chances of walking away from that oft-mentioned auto accident >"on the way to the airport" are presumably greater than the kind of >"accident" you may have after leaving terra firma in a light airplane. > >While not every GA accident is fatal (thankfully), it would be more >appropriate to consider the relevant statistics for "Fatalities Per >100 Million Vehicle Miles Driven." An interpolation between the >rate of overall accidents (235 per 100 million miles) and that of >fatal accidents in autos ( 1.44 per 100 million miles) is probably >more realistic. In that light, the numbers strongly indicate -- as >the Kings have said --that driving your Honda Pilot to the airport >looks a whole lot safer than your activities when you become the >pilot of your small plane. > >Check out >http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/ for >the fuller picture. > >Larry Winger >Scratch building 601XL >do not archive > > >On 7/16/06, Paul Mulwitz ><p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz ><p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net > > >I guess the Kings know something the government statistics people don't know. > >I did a little hunting on the Internet for accident statistics. Here >are the results: > >GA accident rate last year was 6.83 accidents per 100,000 hours. > >Automobile accident rate (1999) was 235 accidents per 100 million >miles. Dividing that by 50 mph average (my number) you get 117 >accidents per 2 million hours or 58 per million hours. >This translates to 5.8 per 100,000 hours or approximately the same >rate per hour as general aviation. > >In their piece the Kings claim GA accident rates are 7 times that of >autos. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is the Kings that are --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:39 AM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Airplane insurance. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" I think you should re-check your math. I get 12 accidents per 100,000 hrs for automobiles using your starting figure of 235 accidents per 1-- million miles and an average speed of 50 mph. However the average speed is probably closer to 25 mph, considering signals, stops, traffic jams, city driving etc. Which brings the number up to 24 accidents per 100,000 miles, about 4 times the GA rate. I would venture that what the Kings are talking about is the fatality rate. It seems to make sense that the fatality rate for an airplane would be far higher than for an auto. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes Sky Bryce Airport (VG18) Basye, VA www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:18 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I guess the Kings know something the government statistics people don't know. I did a little hunting on the Internet for accident statistics. Here are the results: GA accident rate last year was 6.83 accidents per 100,000 hours. Automobile accident rate (1999) was 235 accidents per 100 million miles. Dividing that by 50 mph average (my number) you get 117 accidents per 2 million hours or 58 per million hours. This translates to 5.8 per 100,000 hours or approximately the same rate per hour as general aviation. In their piece the Kings claim GA accident rates are 7 times that of autos. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is the Kings that are telling the Big Lie. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >I'm from Missouri when it comes to this claim. Take a look at the >provocative comments here: - ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:40 AM PST US From: Keith Ashcraft Subject: Zenith-List: most anti-aviation city in the nation --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft All. This information has been floating around in a couple of other "Groups" that I belong to. It might be worth checking out if you are in the Florida area. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/browse_thread/thread/688f409b9c514e53/25ddcbef1957bb52#25ddcbef1957bb52 Keith ************************************ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. ************************************ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:38 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL David: I countersunk mine from the top and bolted them all the way through with nuts on the bottom. Here's a veiw from below showing the nuts on the bottom. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_30_06_Engine_Below.JPG The countersunk holes on top also hold some grease for lubrication. I don't have a closeup handy of the top. I hope this helps, Scott Laughlin Omaha, Nebraska 601XL http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ --- deglass1@aol.com wrote: > This might be obvious, but is an unusual design > practice - > The 4 bolts AN4H-5A that mount the lower nose gear > bearing support 6B8-9 to the nylon bearing appear to > require a blind, threaded hole into the nylon block, > then they're safety wired to prevent backout. The > bolt length appears to support this, but depending > on threaded plastic for pullout strength doesn't > sound like good practice without an anchor insert. > Please advise - are these bolts just threaded into > the nylon, and is this OK since there won't be any > (or not much) pullout force or shock? > > Thanks for all the help this list gives all of us! > > David Glass > Forest (near Lynchburg), VA > N253DG reserved > XL fuse, finally finishing the airframe > > ________________________________________________________________________ > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:53 AM PST US From: "Frank Roskind" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Airplane insurance. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" I think you have to take into account reporting thresholds and criteria. If I scrape the auto next to me when pulling out of a parking spot,it is an accident in the data, while if I pull my airplane out of a hangar and catch the next airplane's wing, I don't have an accident which will be shown in the statistics. Some accident data have dollar damage thresholds also, and shifts in those thresholds can dramatically alter the number of reported accidents. What seldom changes are fatalities, although even those are reported differently by various transportation modes. Some report fatalities only in the 24 hours following the accident, others can count any fatality within the following year. Another issue in analyzing general aviation accident rates is that some types of flying do not translate well using aircraft-miles as a measure of exposure. Pattern work and aerobatics are two quick examples. I think the Kings were onto something in the article cited in this thread. If 85% of all accidents are human factor related, then we have to address human factor accidents in order to have an effect on overall safety. We could also address survivability, and there have been some good ideas there, but obviously the real action is in hman factors. What can we do to improve human factor accident rates? First, we can try to understand the various causes. One very promising model breaks human factor accidnets into lapses, mistakes and violations. A lapse is when a pilot fails to do something he knows he should and is trying to do, for example, a pilot can forget to check the fuel during preflight. A mistake is when the pilot believes he has taken the correct action, but has misperceived some rality, for example, the pilot checks the fuel level, but does not see the level correctly, and accts on an incorrect comprehension of the fuel level. A violation occurs when a pilot deliberately ignores a safety rule, for example, a pilot decides to fly with a ten minute fuel reserve, even though a longer reserve is required. Violations are the easiest to cure in our own flying. Just don't violate your rules, whether imposed by external entities such as the FAA or the insurance company, or by yourself. Some lapses can be cured by adhering to fixed procedures. If you use a checklist to do a preflight, and don't take off until each box is checked, you can avoid some lapses like forgetting to check the fuel level. What used to be a lapse caused accident will now take a violation, which is easier to avoid. Some lapses and mistakes are facilitated by design. This is an area where manufacturers can help improve safety. Gauges can be easier to see and less ambiguous. Fuel tanks can be easier to check, perhaps with access steps for high-wing aircraft. Finally, some lapses and mistakes are due to distraction. Here the regulatory bodies can help. A lot of airspace restrictions take pilot attention at critical phases of flight. Simpler procedures could help avoid distractions. There are lots of other distractions, and to the extent possible we should work to reduce them. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" I think you should re-check your math. I get 12 accidents per 100,000 hrs for automobiles using your starting figure of 235 accidents per 1-- million miles and an average speed of 50 mph. However the average speed is probably closer to 25 mph, considering signals, stops, traffic jams, city driving etc. Which brings the number up to 24 accidents per 100,000 miles, about 4 times the GA rate. I would venture that what the Kings are talking about is the fatality rate. It seems to make sense that the fatality rate for an airplane would be far higher than for an auto. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes Sky Bryce Airport (VG18) Basye, VA www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:18 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I guess the Kings know something the government statistics people don't know. I did a little hunting on the Internet for accident statistics. Here are the results: GA accident rate last year was 6.83 accidents per 100,000 hours. Automobile accident rate (1999) was 235 accidents per 100 million miles. Dividing that by 50 mph average (my number) you get 117 accidents per 2 million hours or 58 per million hours. This translates to 5.8 per 100,000 hours or approximately the same rate per hour as general aviation. In their piece the Kings claim GA accident rates are 7 times that of autos. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps it is the Kings that are telling the Big Lie. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >I'm from Missouri when it comes to this claim. Take a look at the >provocative comments here: - ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:05 AM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Hi; I asked Rotec about about ethanol. They said that a bulletin was going to be published. A local station said that there could be ethanol in the gas but my test showwed none at all. The test is easy to do. Mike 912ULS UHS Spinners Charles Kyle wrote: > Does anyone know if Rotax 912 series engines can use gasoline/ethanol > mixes? In my area the fuel has up to 10% ethanol added in the summer to > reduce pollution and I am wondering if those engines tolerate the mix. > I have looked at the Rotax documentation available and it does not seem > to address the issue. Thanks in advance. > > > > Chuck Kyle > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:34 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Builders' Hint No. 29 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith List, Everybody soon develops unique methods of accomplishing the impossible while building without the luxury of a platoon of helpers. Just so you will all know: A 1997 EZ-GO golf cart with roof will fit nicely under the wing of a 701. If you put two or three bath towels on the roof as padding, roll the cart under from the front just outboard of the strut attach points you'll have a great support.....add air to cart tires and/or remove air from 701 tires to achieve exact distance required to remove/re-install struts for whatever reason. Attach bolts become easy to insert/remove. Too bad the riding lawnmower doesn't have a roof.....be an excellent excuse for it to stay idle until winter. Regards to all, Zed/701/R912/etc do not archive the part about the lawnmower ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:22 AM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where can I buy Cortec 373? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" William- check with Shirley at Zenith. I bought some from them about a year ago. Al Young XL ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 6:22 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez > > I want to use Cortec 373 for corrosions protection but > I've been unable to find a place that will sell it, > neither on line nor local. I've searched the archives > and couldn't find a message that mention where to buy > it. I checked the Cortec web site and no list of > distributors. Did a search in Yahoo and Google and I > got a lot of hits about Cortec but no one from a > store. Checked some local stores and nothing. Does > anyone know the secret place where I can buy this > product? > > William Dominguez > Zodiac 601XL Plans > www.ea-report.com > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:41 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Zenith-List: Painting... Over 20 years has gone, when I last time paint cars (few of them). It was more than gladfully to notice, I haven't lost my touch :-) Main color entered. Blue and red strips waiting... Paint: Delfleet 350 series. ---------------------------------- http://www.jarikaija.com http://www.project-ch701.net ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:11 AM PST US From: "Gig Giacona" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I just did this last week and while I was doing it I felt like this was the weakest link I've installed in my aircraft to-date. I like your idea Scott and I may go redo that next weekend. Is there anyway you can get a photo of the top side and post it? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47863#47863 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:53 AM PST US From: "FLOYD JAMISON" Subject: Zenith-List: Stopped Prop in Glide Jim, Look at George's post that cites from the Naval Aviator's Handbook. the Prop disc determines the area of drag but the ratio / percentage of drag is determined by the angle of the prop blade. Natuarlly a windmilling prop doesn't present 10 times as much drag, but it does present a significant drag factor that should be understood and used (or eliminated) as necessary to effect a safe landing under emergency conditions. When you have the opportunity, try it for yourself. Its a worthwhile exercise. George, Spot on. Thanks. R, Floyd Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:33 AM PST US From: "N601RT" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" One of the Rotax manuals say 5% alcohol is OK (I don't remember which manual). I took the 3 day 20 hr Rotax 4 stroke class in Jan'06 where the instructor (and Rotax guru) Eric Tucker said that the 91x series runs fine with 10% alcohol BUT that the rest of the fuel system must also be verified to be OK with the alcohol. I've run Chevron Premium with 10% alcohol in N601RT without problem. Regards, Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped, 562hrs, 674 landings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47879#47879 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:45 AM PST US From: "Geoff Heap" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: To paint or not to paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" My 10 cents I started building (701) in 1991. Prior to assy of anything I would scotchbrite, alumprep, (alodine sometimes), and prime. My wings have been finished and stored for over 6 years and are painted on the outside (rag wiped) with zinc chromate (rattle can for all internal parts). I know that if I wipe this off to use a different primer I will have a nice shiny clean alum surface underneath. Over the years I have switched to Primers more compatible with modern finish paints. However, today I have the fuse nearly finished. wings, rudder, stab, flaperons and slats all finished and I don't have a single component that is not primed. I consider the inside finished except for the cabin area which I will finish paint. I'd die if I had to paint everything in one shot. I'm so used to painting as I go along now that it's just part of the building process. For me I believe that this is the way to go. By the way, most everything is different shades of grey right now and without a finish paint job it looks quite nice compared to a bare metal job ........Geoff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47880#47880 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:52 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: The Bends! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Yeah, after reading AC 43.13 last night, I agree drilling new holes was a bad idea. Glad I decided to sleep on it. Sometimes, after making a mistake, I am too anxious to fix it. There is a lack of information in AC 43.13 about rivets resting in the bend or drilling too close. This is one of those gray areas. Glad I put that huge fuselage access door in. I think I will inspect this area regularly. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:48 AM Kevin, I'd not drill new holes in the longeron to satisfy an issue of edge distance in this case. If the rivets do not look out of line or impose any structural losses because of the fit, use the holes that you have placed. Larry McFarland do not archive kevinbonds wrote: > I need some advice. I have been drilling my Fuselage side skins. I > accidentally drilled into the bend radius of the longeron splice--not > the longeron itself. Because the splice sits inside the longeron the > bend starts to crowd the edge distance. It's kind of a fine line. I > got sloppy after a long day. I'm thinking of replacing the splice but > I would have to drill new holes in the longeron-leaving the present > ones open. Would this would be acceptable. Assuming I am able to > follow the 3x diameter between rivet holes and still maintain edge > distance. Any other ideas? I am consulting AC 43.13 for a cure. > > Kevin Bonds > > Nashville TN > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > > do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:53 AM PST US From: "Geoff Heap" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Question for finished builders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" My 10 cents I started building (701) in 1991. Prior to assy of anything I would scotchbrite, alumprep, (alodine sometimes), and prime. My wings have been finished and stored for over 6 years and are painted on the outside (rag wiped) with zinc chromate (rattle can for all internal parts). I know that if I wipe this off to use a different primer I will have a nice shiny clean alum surface underneath. Over the years I have switched to Primers more compatible with modern finish paints. However, today I have the fuse nearly finished. wings, rudder, stab, flaperons and slats all finished and I don't have a single component that is not primed. I consider the inside finished except for the cabin area which I will finish paint. I'd die if I had to paint everything in one shot. I'm so used to painting as I go along now that it's just part of the building process. For me I believe that this is the way to go. By the way, most everything is different shades of grey right now and without a finish paint job it looks quite nice compared to a bare metal job ........Geoff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47889#47889 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:34 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Airplane insurance. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Frank, I agree with everything you said. I like the notion of considering violations and working to push more of the routine pilot functions into this realm. I would suggest another way to look at the accident statistics is to consider the ones that, in my opinion, are the most common and the most avoidable. This is the "Flight into IMC" and flight while under the influence of alcohol. I realize the likelihood of alcohol related accidents seems to be limited to younger pilots, but there is just no excuse for this problem. The flight into IMC is much more difficult to deal with. I am lucky that my wife is also a pilot. She doesn't have my level of skill or experience, but she has a very good eye for bad weather up ahead. I can remember times when she got me to turn around when I might have kept going. I don't know how to translate this into a principle for other pilots, but I still think the flight into bad weather accidents are the most insidious. This kind of accident is both avoidable and often fatal. One other pilot skill issue I have mentioned several times before on this list is the question about landing procedures normally used by pilots. Those pilots who normally approach runways with the power off get lots of practice flying without using the throttle to make the runway. Those pilots who choose to always use power for their approaches deny themselves the practice. I wonder how many of the serious accidents related to loss of engine power could be avoided if the pilots were "Up to speed" on power off landing techniques. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >What can we do to improve human factor accident rates? First, we >can try to understand the various causes. One very promising model >breaks human factor accidnets into lapses, mistakes and violations. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:13 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: The Bends! Kevin, seems like you could celco in the overlapping splice and drill back through only the good holes from the inside. Without seeing it seems like you could make through the two end hole and celco it and then redrill back through the splice. Best of luck, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:23 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. I'm having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:42 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut it down. You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a good price. kevinbonds wrote: Clean Clean DocumentEmail false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. Im having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:05 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Kevin, That is =9Cextruded=9D angle. I am on the West Coast and bought it at a local supplier, but had to buy 1 =C2=BD x 1 =C2=BD. I=99ll cut to suit Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom and Bren Henderson Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut it down. You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a good price. kevinbonds wrote: I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:22 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Yeah it=99s =9Cextruded=9D but the =9Carchitectural=9D refers to it being different lengths on each side. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:05 PM Kevin, That is =9Cextruded=9D angle. I am on the West Coast and bought it at a local supplier, but had to buy 1 =C2=BD x 1 =C2=BD. I=99ll cut to suit Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom and Bren Henderson Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut it down. You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a good price. kevinbonds wrote: I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:09 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Kevin, I remember setting beside my power bandsaw cutting 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8 inch angle lengthwise to reduce one side to 1-inch. Took a while, but very doable. I put masking tape on the slide surface of the saw, ink marked the inch dimension full length and cut outside the mark or just touching it. Then I put a disk sander on the edge to bring it perfectly into the ink mark, smoothed the edge and broke the corners with a file. Aircraft Spruce has the above in 6061 T6 at $1.81 a foot if you need it. Don't use 2024-T3! Good luck, Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com kevinbonds wrote: > I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is > 2024-T3. Im having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks > call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? > Cut down some 6061? Source? > > Kevin Bonds > > Nashville TN > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:11 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Question about XL lower nose gear support bolts Hi Gig: I looked through my backup photos and came up with these two (attached). It's in a tight spot and engine parts hide most of it these days. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Working on canopy --- Gig Giacona wrote: > I like your idea Scott and I may go redo that next > weekend. Is there anyway you can get a photo of the > top side and post it? __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:31 AM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: To paint or not to paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: "raymondj" Much of the discussion about paint or not seems to revolve around appearance. I'm trying maximize my efficiency (be lazy) when it comes to the finish. I understand the importance of corrosion protection, but I'm wondering if there is some process out there that offers adequate protection, though it may look bad, with less work than either paint or polish. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. Corvair core acquired -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Geoff Heap Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:00 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" My 10 cents I started building (701) in 1991. Prior to assy of anything I would scotchbrite, alumprep, (alodine sometimes), and prime. My wings have been finished and stored for over 6 years and are painted on the outside (rag wiped) with zinc chromate (rattle can for all internal parts). I know that if I wipe this off to use a different primer I will have a nice shiny clean alum surface underneath. Over the years I have switched to Primers more compatible with modern finish paints. However, today I have the fuse nearly finished. wings, rudder, stab, flaperons and slats all finished and I don't have a single component that is not primed. I consider the inside finished except for the cabin area which I will finish paint. I'd die if I had to paint everything in one shot. I'm so used to painting as I go along now that it's just part of the building process. For me I believe that this is the way to go. By the way, most everything is different shades of grey right now and with! out a finish paint job it looks quite nice compared to a bare metal job ........Geoff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47880#47880 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:18 AM PST US From: "John Hines" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Hat with tail number Guys, Sorry for the shameless plug for my friend, but... I had my friend make me a custom hat with a picture of Zenith 601 and my tail number. Now that they have the design in their computer, the cost is only $15 per hat. Just send them an email with your tail number and the color you want. You can coordinate payment and shipment with them. I just liked mine so much I wanted to share! The really cool thing is that Dorothy is married to a retired SR-71 pilot. Just go to www.johnsplane.com and click on the picture of the hat. John Don not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:53 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: lower nose gear support bolts- Another Picture Gig: I found one more picture that is important if you plan to go this route. The countersink for the back holes get into the stop-block part of the bearing. This may be difficult to do on a drill press - I used my little mill. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com --- Gig Giacona wrote: > I like your idea Scott and I may go redo that next > weekend. Is there anyway you can get a photo of the > top side and post it? __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:59 AM PST US From: Ron Butterfield Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield kevinbonds wrote: > Yeah its extruded but the architectural refers to it being different lengths on each side. NO! Sorry for shouting, but this wouldn't be so critical if "architectural" weren't usually 6063 which is HALF AS STRONG as 6061, which is itself slightly less strong than 2024. Architectural refers to the metal's intended environment, and the alloy chosen to optimize it's service life in that environment. For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to "aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063. 6061 is often referred to as "aircraft" grade even though it is often used for other things. 6063 is usually what you get when you order "architectural" grade; the alloy is optimized for corrosion resistance, not strength. Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as compared to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy visual identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or appearance (square). -- Regards, RonB ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:19 AM PST US From: "george may" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" kyle-- There was just an article by Phil Lockwood on the use of fuel with ethanol. He indicated that Rotax engines can run with 5% ethanol and that some folks are currently running with 10%. It looks like we are all going to find out soon how they do on 10%. Most of the gas stations around where I live are now posting fuels with 10% ethanol. I'm currently flying behind a Rotax 582 and have had to use some of the 10% gas. No problems so far. George May 601XL 912s >From: "Charles Kyle" >To: >Subject: Zenith-List: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:18:52 -0400 > >Does anyone know if Rotax 912 series engines can use gasoline/ethanol >mixes? In my area the fuel has up to 10% ethanol added in the summer to >reduce pollution and I am wondering if those engines tolerate the mix. >I have looked at the Rotax documentation available and it does not seem >to address the issue. Thanks in advance. > >Chuck Kyle _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:02 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Zenith-List: Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane insurance. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman The discussion here has been about the relative risks of general aviation vs. driving. Out of curiosity I once looked at another comparison of fatality rates, that of flying homebuilts vs. skydiving. What follows is something I wrote to the EAA. The numbers are a bit old because it was written in 1997. The EAA didn't publish it, so I tried again with the smaller Canadian equivalent (RAA), but I heard nothing from them either. While statistics are a tricky thing to interpret, you can judge whether they didn't believe the interpretation of the data, or didn't like the message! =========== One version of the letter was this: Homebuilt Aircraft & Relative Risk In the June issue of "Sport Aviation", Tom Poberezny reported improvements in US homebuilt aircraft safety statistics over recent years. Despite a registered fleet that grew about 25% from 1992 to 1996, the number of accidents remained essentially constant, while fatal accidents and fatalities dropped roughly 10 to 15%. In 1996, fatal accidents to homebuilts in the USA numbered 56, out of a registered fleet of 18700. What wasn't noted in the article is the obvious conclusion that one in every 334 homebuilts is involved in a fatal accident each year. Which is not that far from saying that if you are the pilot of a homebuilt aircraft, there is a 1 in 334 chance of getting killed in it each year. Not quite so good sounding? Naturally this ignores factors such as distinguishing passenger from pilot fatalities, higher accident rates during initial test flights only (and lower thereafter), the number of pilots flying each homebuilt, how an accident involving two homebuilts is counted, and whether all registered aircraft are actually flown. Still, the number should be a good ballpark figure. Using the 1992 figures gives a more pessimistic 1 in 231. As independent evidence, one report I saw in 1990 on the safety of different sports and activities (US insurance company data) listed a 1 in 320 fatality rate for homebuilts per participant, per year. To gain additional perspective, one can compare the numbers for homebuilts to an aviation activity that has some reputation for high risk: skydiving. US and international data on skydiving in recent years indicate a fatality rate in the neighbourhood of 1 in 1000 participants per year, for non-students. [Edit: I've done a lot of looking at skydiving statistics and know the sport well, so I'm confident that the 1 in 1000 was and continues to be a realistic number.] (Adding in students improves the rate by something like a factor of four, as many make only one jump and so are exposed to little "per participant" risk.) Conclusion: homebuilts are in some ways three times more dangerous than skydiving. I didn't expect that when I first started looking at the numbers. =================== Peter Chapman Toronto, Canada partner in a 601 HDS; 1500 jumps P.S. - Regarding the discussion on general aviation vs. driving accident rates mentioned on the King web site: To answer a question, the site says that the data is for fatalities, not accidents in general. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:29 PM PST US From: "B Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" Dont forget candle wax! When cutting aluminum with my bandsaw, especially with long cuts, I turn the saw on then lub the blade with any old candle that happens to be laying around. On long cuts, I also rub the candle along the cut line for a bit extra lub... Makes a bandsaw cut 6061 like butta.... -Bruce > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryMcFarland > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:03 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland > > Kevin, > I remember setting beside my power bandsaw cutting 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8 > inch angle lengthwise to reduce one side to 1-inch. > Took a while, but very doable. I put masking tape on the slide surface > of the saw, ink marked the inch dimension full length and cut > outside the mark or just touching it. Then I put a disk sander on the > edge to bring it perfectly into the ink mark, smoothed the edge and > broke the corners with a file. Aircraft Spruce has the above in 6061 T6 > at $1.81 a foot if you need it. Don't use 2024-T3! > Good luck, > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > kevinbonds wrote: > > > I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is > > 2024-T3. Im having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks > > call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? > > Cut down some 6061? Source? > > > > Kevin Bonds > > > > Nashville TN > > > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > > -- ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:46 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Larry and Kevin: Another way to do this is to use a table saw and a piece of wood. Aircraft Spruce ships tubing and hinges strapped to 1X2" strips of wood. You can press the angle tightly against a piece of this wood and run it through your table saw using the guide fence and get a nice, clean cut to reduce one of the sides of the angle. If you are brave you can cut it without the wood but it's more scary. Same results. Be sure to use pushing blocks and keep your fingers away from the blade. This way you get a really straight edge. I use this same wood-block method when cross-cutting aluminum angle with my power miter saw. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > Kevin, > I remember setting beside my power bandsaw cutting > 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8 inch angle lengthwise __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:16 PM PST US From: "Frank Roskind" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Airplane insurance. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" I can't see how alcohol related flight is anything but a violation, using the lapse, mistake, violation model. Continued VFR flight into IMC is a little more challenging. If the pilot does not get a weather briefing, or deliberately continues into clouds, then we have a violation type of accident. If a pilot misunderstands a weather briefing, or the weather briefing is inaccurate, we could have a mistake, if the pilot could not avoid the clouds. More common would be if the pilot thought that the weather was not going to worsen, and continued into conditions that did. Again this is a mistake, and may even get to the point of violation. If the pilot adopts a self imposed limitation that requires a precautionary landing at the first available airport, then continuing the flight would be a violation, and easily avoidable. Night flight into IMC could be inadvertent if the pilot had no warning of clouds, and definitely would be a mistake, and much harder to avoid. Clearly then, night flight should be a violation if the pilot cannot handle brief periods of instrument flight. It is less obvious whether the correct response to unexpected clouds at night is a 180 or continued flight. In general the 180 seems safer, however the pilot needs to know where he is for terrain avoidance when doing a 180. Way too many pilots have made their 180 to the west over the Hudson river, hitting the Catskills, instead of flying over the flatlands on the East side of the river. I am also unsure as to how to categorize the power off approach as an everyday technique. My inclination would be to discourage it as an everyday technique, especially for some of the lighter aircraft, like the 701, and rather to enourage the pilot to practice power-off approaches regularly, but not on every landing. There is a substantial risk in a power-off approach in aircraft with poor gliding characteristics. The flare must be much more precise, and each landing adds risk. I certainly proved that personally in a Piper Colt, when I did a less than completely successful power-off approach in an airplane with an airspeed indicator reading higher than actual. At the time I was a student pilot on my fourth solo, and I had not flown the Colt in question before, so I did not have the benefit of instructors' advice. They had been telling students to land that particular Colt at 85 mph indicated on final, when the other Colts landed at 65 mph indicated on final. My guess is that the erroneous reading had been caused by low pressure at the static port under the instrument panel, caused by a bent door which reduced cabin pressure. The apparent airspeed was hard to detect at that point in my training, as the wind noise was about right, as was the ground speed on the hot windless day. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Frank, I agree with everything you said. I like the notion of considering violations and working to push more of the routine pilot functions into this realm. I would suggest another way to look at the accident statistics is to consider the ones that, in my opinion, are the most common and the most avoidable. This is the "Flight into IMC" and flight while under the influence of alcohol. I realize the likelihood of alcohol related accidents seems to be limited to younger pilots, but there is just no excuse for this problem. The flight into IMC is much more difficult to deal with. I am lucky that my wife is also a pilot. She doesn't have my level of skill or experience, but she has a very good eye for bad weather up ahead. I can remember times when she got me to turn around when I might have kept going. I don't know how to translate this into a principle for other pilots, but I still think the flight into bad weather accidents are the most insidious. This kind of accident is both avoidable and often fatal. One other pilot skill issue I have mentioned several times before on this list is the question about landing procedures normally used by pilots. Those pilots who normally approach runways with the power off get lots of practice flying without using the throttle to make the runway. Those pilots who choose to always use power for their approaches deny themselves the practice. I wonder how many of the serious accidents related to loss of engine power could be avoided if the pilots were "Up to speed" on power off landing techniques. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >What can we do to improve human factor accident rates? First, we can try >to understand the various causes. One very promising model breaks human >factor accidnets into lapses, mistakes and violations. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://wiki.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:19 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: To paint or not to paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin leave it as bare unpolished aluminum. Unless you live in a very corrosive environment, it'll last longer than you will. On Jul 17, 2006, at 2:16 PM, raymondj wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "raymondj" > > > Much of the discussion about paint or not seems to revolve around > appearance. I'm trying maximize my efficiency (be lazy) when it > comes to the > finish. I understand the importance of corrosion protection, but I'm > wondering if there is some process out there that offers adequate > protection, though it may look bad, with less work than either > paint or > polish. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > Corvair core acquired > > -----Original Message----- -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:09 PM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane insurance. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Intersting comparison, Especially as when one ten place airplane crashes with all jumpers on board tends to skew the statistics. Frank HDS.... Sold! 500 jumps RV7a...almost ready...As is my old skydiving rig for the first flight...:) Do not archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Chapman Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:09 PM insurance. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman The discussion here has been about the relative risks of general aviation vs. driving. Out of curiosity I once looked at another comparison of fatality rates, that of flying homebuilts vs. skydiving. What follows is something I wrote to the EAA. The numbers are a bit old because it was written in 1997. The EAA didn't publish it, so I tried again with the smaller Canadian equivalent (RAA), but I heard nothing from them either. While statistics are a tricky thing to interpret, you can judge whether they didn't believe the interpretation of the data, or didn't like the message! =========== One version of the letter was this: Homebuilt Aircraft & Relative Risk ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:46 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" I get ya Ron. My mistake. My original post said Folks call it "architectural". I asked a guy at a metal supplier for 6061 in that size, He said "No, we don't carry any of that "architectural" or odd shaped stuff, all of our angles are the same dimensions on both sides". Because of this, I have come to think of it that way, because they don't seem to make anything less than "square"--for lack of a better term--in 6061-T6. I can see how this could cause a misunderstanding. And how I confused it in my own head (hate it when that happens) But don't worry, I would never use 6063 on my plane. I do know the difference. My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for this angle (for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say no. What say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop) Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Butterfield Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:44 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield kevinbonds wrote: > Yeah it's "extruded" but the "architectural" refers to it being different lengths on each side. NO! Sorry for shouting, but this wouldn't be so critical if "architectural" weren't usually 6063 which is HALF AS STRONG as 6061, which is itself slightly less strong than 2024. Architectural refers to the metal's intended environment, and the alloy chosen to optimize it's service life in that environment. For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to "aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063. 6061 is often referred to as "aircraft" grade even though it is often used for other things. 6063 is usually what you get when you order "architectural" grade; the alloy is optimized for corrosion resistance, not strength. Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as compared to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy visual identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or appearance (square). -- Regards, RonB ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:47 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin Send an e-mail to ZAC and ask, I suspect 2024-T3 will work just fine. You may have to pay a little more attention to corrosion control. As I understand it, 2024 is stronger than 6061 but less corrosion resistant. Some of the working properties are different as well. On Jul 17, 2006, at 3:50 PM, kevinbonds wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > > > I get ya Ron. My mistake. My original post said Folks call it > "architectural". I asked a guy at a metal supplier for 6061 in that > size, He > said "No, we don't carry any of that "architectural" or odd shaped > stuff, > all of our angles are the same dimensions on both sides". Because > of this, I > have come to think of it that way, because they don't seem to make > anything > less than "square"--for lack of a better term--in 6061-T6. I can > see how > this could cause a misunderstanding. And how I confused it in my > own head > (hate it when that happens) But don't worry, I would never use 6063 > on my > plane. I do know the difference. > > My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for > this angle > (for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say > no. What > say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop) > > Kevin Bonds > > Nashville TN > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:47 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: Zenith-List: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach Hello, Our Dewey Beach Condominium is located right on the beach (no streets to cross at all). This beautiful condo has a wonderful view of the beach which is only steps from the front door of the complex. It sleeps up to four persons and is still available this summer for the following three weeks: July 28th - August 4th (reduced rate to $1000) August 25-Sept 1st ($1200) Sept 22-29 ($600) (water is still of a swimmable temperature) (Pets are Not Allowed. No Exceptions!!) On the beach, in Dewey Beach -- Our studio condominium is available for rental on a weekly basis (sometimes we rent it for 5 nights, if we do not have a weekly rental). If you are looking for relaxation, this is it. We are only a few steps from the beach. Take a dip and the pool or hot tub, sunbathe on the beach, swim in the ocean and go surf fishing. There are many nearby restaurants, shops and marinas. It's only a short drive to three outlet malls with over 140 stores, and Delaware has no sales tax! Sailing on the bay, tennis, surf fishing/charter boats, numerous golf courses, fitness centers, day spas and casinos are only a few of the nearby activities available. At night, Dewey Beach and nearby Rehobeth Beach gets moving with a plethora of restaurants and night spots. We love our little condo at the beach and am sure that you will, too. Come to Dewey Beach this year and see for yourself. Linda & Jim Pellien Accommodations: bullet Studio has a double fold-out "Murphy" bed plus a queen sleep-sofa (Max = 4 persons) bullet Dorm-Size Refrigerator bullet Two Burner Stove Top bullet Dishes - Cookware, Etc. bullet Coffee Maker bullet Toaster bullet Cable TV/HBO bullet Stereo - Cassetter Player bullet Solarium Area With Dining Table bullet Outdoor Swimming Pool bullet Hot Tub & Sauna bullet Bicycles bullet Videos bullet Outdoor Grill bullet Commercial Washer/Dryer bullet Ice Machine bullet Popcorn, Coffee/Tea Available in the Lobby bullet Daily Housekeeping Linda & Jim Pellien jim@pellien.com 703-313-4818 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:48 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Ron, You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I thought was 6061 from a local supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and square inside corner. And this was the extrusions for my gear (TD)!! Thanks for the heads-up! Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to "aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063. Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as compared to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy visual identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or appearance (square). -- Regards, RonB ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:33 PM PST US From: Ron Butterfield Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield I only know enough to be dangerous, so take this for what it's worth ;-) The best I can tell, 2024 is slightly stronger than 6061, as well as slightly more susceptible to corrosion. For the words of someone smarter than me, go to: http://www.zenithair.com//misc/pr-7-kp.htm and scroll down to the subheading "How It's Built": "Structurally, the CH 701 is built almost entirely of corrosion-resistant 6061-T6 aluminum, which normally requires no zinc chromating for preservation. The more common 2024-T3 is slightly stronger but would not have the same enduring qualities in its unprotected state. " kevinbonds wrote: > > My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for this angle > (for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say no. What > say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop) -- Regards, RonB ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:21 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Accident rate comparisons - was Airplane --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman At 15:48 17-07-06, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >Especially as when one ten place airplane crashes with all jumpers on >board tends to skew the statistics. Thanks - It reminds me that in my post I failed to note that the skydiving statistics apply only to the skydive from exit to landing. Skydiving aircraft crashes, which take an additional toll, are by convention tallied separately. So the analysis doesn't change, if one is comparing homebuilts to the actual skydive, but not the airlift to altitude. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:50 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach This doesn't have anything to do with Zenith airplanes, or aviation in general. Why is it on this list? And why should it be archived? George Do not archive----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Pellien Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:20 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach Hello, Our Dewey Beach Condominium is located right on the beach (no streets to cross at all). This beautiful condo has a wonderful view of the beach which is only steps from the front door of the complex. It sleeps up to four persons and is still available this summer for the following three weeks: July 28th - August 4th (reduced rate to $1000) August 25-Sept 1st ($1200) Sept 22-29 ($600) (water is still of a swimmable temperature) (Pets are Not Allowed. No Exceptions!!) On the beach, in Dewey Beach -- Our studio condominium is available for rental on a weekly basis (sometimes we rent it for 5 nights, if we do not have a weekly rental). If you are looking for relaxation, this is it. We are only a few steps from the beach. Take a dip and the pool or hot tub, sunbathe on the beach, swim in the ocean and go surf fishing. There are many nearby restaurants, shops and marinas. It's only a short drive to three outlet malls with over 140 stores, and Delaware has no sales tax! Sailing on the bay, tennis, surf fishing/charter boats, numerous golf courses, fitness centers, day spas and casinos are only a few of the nearby activities available. At night, Dewey Beach and nearby Rehobeth Beach gets moving with a plethora of restaurants and night spots. We love our little condo at the beach and am sure that you will, too. Come to Dewey Beach this year and see for yourself. Linda & Jim Pellien Accommodations: Studio has a double fold-out "Murphy" bed plus a queen sleep-sofa (Max = 4 persons) Dorm-Size Refrigerator Two Burner Stove Top Dishes - Cookware, Etc. Coffee Maker Toaster Cable TV/HBO Stereo - Cassetter Player Solarium Area With Dining Table Outdoor Swimming Pool Hot Tub & Sauna Bicycles Videos Outdoor Grill Commercial Washer/Dryer Ice Machine Popcorn, Coffee/Tea Available in the Lobby Daily Housekeeping Linda & Jim Pellien jim@pellien.com 703-313-4818 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:32 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that were square. Scott Laughlin --- Gary Boothe wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" > > > Ron, > > You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I > thought was 6061 from a local > supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and > square inside corner. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:39 PM PST US From: Bill Mileski Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Fuels with alcohol added in Rotax engines Hi, I too read the article by Lockwood, but got tired of not knowing if there's any fuel within driving distance of my hangar in CT that isn't reformulated with 10% ethanol. I made some calls, and ended up sending this email to EAA Sport Aviation editorial: -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:53 PM Hello, As an owner of a recently completed airplane powered by a Rotax 912S, I was interested to read Power On in June and July, which discussed some concerns over ethanol and Rotax engines. I am a resident of Connecticut, and I thought I ought to pass on some info I got after contacting several entities involved in fuel distribution, production, or monitoring. These institutions include the Independent Connecticut Petroleum Association, the New England Fuel Institute, the Independent Oil Marketers Association of New England, The Petroleum Marketers Association of America, and finally the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association (NPRA). In particular, the NPRA was most explicit, and there is much information at www.npra.org for those interested. The bottom line is that all of the entities felt that Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island are all offering only reformulated gasoline with a minimum of ten percent ethanol. This is somewhat disconcerting, as it appears there is no local option for the desired fuel for these popular engines, for residents of Southern New England. Bill Mileski Ledyard, Connecticut ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:05 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Hat with tail number And just for all of us Taildraggers, Dorothy has modified the logo! Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Guys, Sorry for the shameless plug for my friend, but. I had my friend make me a custom hat with a picture of Zenith 601 and my tail number. Now that they have the design in their computer, the cost is only $15 per hat. Just send them an email with your tail number and the color you want. You can coordinate payment and shipment with them. I just liked mine so much I wanted to share! The really cool thing is that Dorothy is married to a retired SR-71 pilot. Just go to www.johnsplane.com and click on the picture of the hat. John Don not archive ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:08 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Rent What? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith Something must have gotten scrambled in transmission......what the heck is "Dooie Bitch Condum"? All I got was some garble about no pets and three photos. One looks like maybe a hot tub with a spectator area, One looks like an un-finished construction project, And the third resembles the parlor of a cat house in some movie. Where are the airplanes? Thanks you very much, Regards to all, Batteries not included, Do not archive, Etc Zed/701 airplane/R912 engine/a great project to keep idle minds idle ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:47 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" OK....now what? Anyone got any ideas on how to ID 6061 extruded vs. 6063 extruded? Gary FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that were square. Scott Laughlin --- Gary Boothe wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" > > > Ron, > > You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I > thought was 6061 from a local > supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and > square inside corner. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:19 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties. Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root (called square root angles). All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied by ZAC have square edges and roots. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes! ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:57 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? I hope someone can steer me in the right direction, 'cause, at this point, I am just chasing my tail! 601XL, fuselage spar center section, upright supports. The photo guide tells me to remove one of the uprighs to get to the outboard row of spar mounting bolt holes. I am to use a drill guide bushing in the hole to drill a pilot hole in the remaining upright, or a transfer punch. It seems that transfer punches only come in sets. I only need one size. There is a picture of a drill guide bushing, but no clue as to where to get one. Any suggestions? Jay in Dallas Do not archive ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:11 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. I must have spent half a day on line trying to find the spar cap extrusion before contacting Larry Mac. Duhh! 1. Extrusions of the same alloy can come with either rounded or square edges. 2. Definitely swipe one of those candles on your dining room table that have never been lit and put it to use. 3. If you can rig up a little "Splitter" to go down the kerf line to keep the sides from buckling in, you won't have to muscle your band saw blade back on the rollers every 5 minutes. Bill Naumuk 40%HDS being relocated to new shop Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties. Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:54 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Jay, Thanks for that, but as you follow the string there were two conflicting pieces of info. One lister said that you could ID the angle based on shape, the other lister said NO. Now I have un-identifiable angle and, short of buying new, don't know if there is a way to ID the 6061. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... _____ Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties. Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root (called square root angles). All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied by ZAC have square edges and roots. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes! ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:54 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Just a comment. We use both 2024 & 6063 at the hanger. We use the 2024 for the airplane (HRII N561FS) and 6063 for the jr.& high school riveting classes we hold. We cut the 6063 in 3" pieces, drill three holes in it and attach a .032 plate with three types of rivets & let the kids take them home. One "pop" rivet, one round head & a flush type. The students re-drill (battery, cord & air types), debur, counter sink, dimple and set rivets with a manual "pop" rivet gun, a hand squeezer, a C frame with rubber mallet & an air hammer with bucking bar. We use the best materials required for the intended application. The 6063 without the interior web radius is easier to clamp securely to the safety 2X4's. After 30 years as a plumbing contractor I use "L" & "K" type copper for pressure air, water lines etc. and type "M" for non-pressure lines, drain lines & wind chimes. "The best materials required for the intended application". The "best" use for type M copper (the one with the red printing) is for wind chimes. In my not so humble opinion type "M" copper & 6063 angle are best suited for applications there they support nothing, contain nothing & are cut into small pieces. KABONG Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:43 AM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Butterfield > > > > kevinbonds wrote: >> Yeah its extruded but the architectural refers to it being different >> lengths on each side. > > NO! > > Sorry for shouting, but this wouldn't be so critical if "architectural" > weren't usually 6063 which is HALF AS STRONG as 6061, which is itself > slightly less strong than 2024. > > Architectural refers to the metal's intended environment, and the alloy > chosen to optimize it's service life in that environment. > > For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to > "aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063. > > 6061 is often referred to as "aircraft" grade even though it is often used > for other things. 6063 is usually what you get when you order > "architectural" grade; the alloy is optimized for corrosion resistance, > not strength. > > Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as compared > to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy visual > identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or appearance > (square). > Regards, > RonB ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:35 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? Jay, Harbor Freight has a cheap set of transfer punches and trust me once you have them there is no way you will only use just the one. I have used several different ones in the planes and they come in real handy sometimes. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 6:05 PM I hope someone can steer me in the right direction, 'cause, at this point, I am just chasing my tail! 601XL, fuselage spar center section, upright supports. The photo guide tells me to remove one of the uprighs to get to the outboard row of spar mounting bolt holes. I am to use a drill guide bushing in the hole to drill a pilot hole in the remaining upright, or a transfer punch. It seems that transfer punches only come in sets. I only need one size. There is a picture of a drill guide bushing, but no clue as to where to get one. Any suggestions? Jay in Dallas Do not archive -- No virus found in this incoming message. 7/14/2006 -- 7/14/2006 ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:07 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. OK I don't know if this will help but...... I watched a TV show once where they were showing how they identify aluminum at a recycling plant and they had a hand held gadget that they would put against the aluminum and it would tell them what it was by identifying it's properties. So you might try calling your recycler and taking small pieces to them to identify. Jeff ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:11 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" I don't have a camera here at the plant, but I do have Ryerson steel's data book. From the Aluminum structural shapes section: American Standard: Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles, channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends. Sharp Corner: Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are sharp, with nearly invisible radii. but ONLY on the inside. There is also a filet where the two legs join. If you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square, if you put a square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet, and the legs are tapered. The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not a perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside and it will measure square. There is no taper of the flanges or legs. When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily available in the "American Standard" shape. If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but is available in 6063-T52. Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals" book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52 angle. When you go to Home Depot, they usually have the sharp corner version and it is usually marked "architectural" It is made for attaching awnings to your RV, not building wing spars. not available as stock items. Anyone can have them made, but the minimum run would probably be 1000 lbs plus. ZA does this as they are constantly selling their sizes. So in the case of the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093, you buy that size but in the .125 thickness and you order some longer rivets. In the case of the 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 (is that right?) you will have to buy 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 angle and cut one leg down as instructed by Larry Mac and the other Builders. As Builders have stated, you can't find the ZA sizes as stock items. So order from ZA or get out the saw, set the fench, steal the candles and start cutting! Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas > FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder > workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased > other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that > were square. > > Scott Laughlin ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:59 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Gary, My only suggestion would be to trace the heritage of the stull you have on hand. In other words, go to whomever sold it to you, and if necessary, to the one that sold it to them. Someone along the line should know what it is. Good luck! - Jay Do not archive ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:01 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" Jay-- I went through the same self discussion before I decided to just make a transfer punch. I had a piece of 5/16 steel rod and turned it in a drill with a file. Final tool worked fine. It wasn't hardened but I only had to use it for 4 holes. George May 601XL 912s >From: Jaybannist@cs _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:03 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? Mark, Thanks. I have never been in a Harbour Freight store. I didn't even know they had stores here in the Dallas area. Guess it's about time I paid them a visit. I see, on their on-line catalog, a transfer punch set for about eight bucks. What I have seen elsewhere were ten times that! Thanks again - Jay Do not archive ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:31 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Randy, You are most helpful. Since this was not a special order item that I acquired (1 1/2" x 1 1/2" ext.aluminum), and since it has sharp corners and no inside web, and since it has uniformly thick flanges, chances are that it is 6063. Do I understand correctly? Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... American Standard: Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles, channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends. Sharp Corner: Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are sharp, with nearly invisible radii. but ONLY on the inside. There is also a filet where the two legs join. If you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square, if you put a square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet, and the legs are tapered. The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not a perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside and it will measure square. There is no taper of the flanges or legs. When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily available in the "American Standard" shape. If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but is available in 6063-T52. Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals" book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52 angle. Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas > FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder > workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased > other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that > were square. > > Scott Laughlin ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:27 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Thanks, Jay. He'll look funny walking around with it stuck up his you-know-what.. Gary Do not archive _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:35 PM Gary, My only suggestion would be to trace the heritage of the stull you have on hand. In other words, go to whomever sold it to you, and if necessary, to the one that sold it to them. Someone along the line should know what it is. Good luck! - Jay Do not archive ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:40 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Gary, I typed "stull" and meant to type "stuff." Sorry. I am recovering from a detatched retina and can't see that well right now, especially errors! Jay Do not archive ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:59 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" Somehow a sentence was deleted from my previous post, the lead in of the fourth paragraph. I added it below: Regards, Randy L. Thwing > I don't have a camera here at the plant, but I do have Ryerson steel's data > book. From the Aluminum structural shapes section: > > American Standard: Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles, > channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends. > > Sharp Corner: Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are > sharp, with nearly invisible radii. > > American Standard shapes have tapered flanges or legs, but ONLY on the inside. There is also a filet where the two legs join. If > you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square, if you put a > square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet, and > the legs are tapered. > > The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not a > perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside and > it will measure square. There is no taper of the flanges or legs. > > When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily available > in the "American Standard" shape. > > If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but > is available in 6063-T52. > > Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals" > book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52 angle. > > When you go to Home Depot, they usually have the sharp corner version and it > is usually marked "architectural" It is made for attaching awnings to your > RV, not building wing spars. > > not available as stock items. Anyone can have them made, but the minimum > run would probably be 1000 lbs plus. ZA does this as they are constantly > selling their sizes. So in the case of the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093, you buy that > size but in the .125 thickness and you order some longer rivets. In the > case of the 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 (is that right?) you will have to buy 1 1/2 x 1 > 1/2 angle and cut one leg down as instructed by Larry Mac and the other > Builders. As Builders have stated, you can't find the ZA sizes as stock > items. So order from ZA or get out the saw, set the fench, steal the > candles and start cutting! > > Regards, > > Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:20 PM PST US From: "Milburn Reed" Subject: Zenith-List: GPS Please advise what GPS I should buy to use here on the ranch http://www.directcon.net/reedranch/ on the ground as well as later in my 701 when I get it built? How do you correlate Latitude and Longitude with township and range ? Mil Reed ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:13 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: ZA extrusion photo OK, now I'm at home where I have both a camera and extrusions I purchased from ZA. This is my first attempt at attaching a photo to the list so wish me luck. Referring to my previous posts, the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 seems to be the "square corner" specification. There is no filet on the inside and the legs or flanges are a constant size with no taper. The larger 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 extrusion meets neither specification I described. It does not have "square corners" on the inside, it has a filet, yet it has no taper on the legs or flanges, so it really doesn't meet the "American Standard" spec I described. When you order from the mill in quantity, you can have any shape made of any material made to any specification. Is this what ZA is doing? Obviously, I don't have the complete answer. I wish I had a sample of the "American Standard" cross section to compare what ZA furnishes. I now believe that ZA extrusions are "mill specials" that you wouldn't find in any normal stocking situation. That doesn't mean that you couldn't use readily available stock sizes and alter them to "near" ZA shape. I've done my best to determine what is the real story here, maybe other listers can add to this story. Best Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, NV ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:16 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Gary- Two things. 1. Extrusions I bought from Wick's were square, while the ones from ACS were rounded. I have no idea whether this is their stocking policy or coincidence. 2. Anyone dealing in critical materials should have "Material Certs" that come in with every shipment on file. Kick back, relax, and ask to see the applicable cert, which will tell you the exact composition of the alloy. Bill Naumuk 40%HDS being relocated to new shop Townville, Pa > > > ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:16 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? HF stuff usually isn't pretty, but it does the job. do not archive Bill Naumuk 40%HDS being relocated to new shop Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drill guide bushings, transfer punches? Mark, Thanks. I have never been in a Harbour Freight store. I didn't even know they had stores here in the Dallas area. Guess it's about time I paid them a visit. I see, on their on-line catalog, a transfer punch set for about eight bucks. What I have seen elsewhere were ten times that! Thanks again - Jay Do not archive ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:39 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting... Jari, Looks like a very nice paint job - keep up the good work.-- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:06 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach Sorry to Everybody. Somehow the Zenith List emeail address got into my Surf Club Mailing List. Apologies across the board. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes Sky Bryce Airport (VG18) Basye, VA www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:49 PM This doesn't have anything to do with Zenith airplanes, or aviation in general. Why is it on this list? And why should it be archived? George Do not archive----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:20 PM Hello, Our Dewey Beach Condominium is located right on the beach (no streets to cross at all). This beautiful condo has a wonderful view of the beach which is only steps from the front door of the complex. It sleeps up to four persons and is still available this summer for the following three weeks: July 28th - August 4th (reduced rate to $1000) August 25-Sept 1st ($1200) Sept 22-29 ($600) (water is still of a swimmable temperature) (Pets are Not Allowed. No Exceptions!!) On the beach, in Dewey Beach -- Our studio condominium is available for rental on a weekly basis (sometimes we rent it for 5 nights, if we do not have a weekly rental). If you are looking for relaxation, this is it. We are only a few steps from the beach. Take a dip and the pool or hot tub, sunbathe on the beach, swim in the ocean and go surf fishing. There are many nearby restaurants, shops and marinas. It's only a short drive to three outlet malls with over 140 stores, and Delaware has no sales tax! Sailing on the bay, tennis, surf fishing/charter boats, numerous golf courses, fitness centers, day spas and casinos are only a few of the nearby activities available. At night, Dewey Beach and nearby Rehobeth Beach gets moving with a plethora of restaurants and night spots. We love our little condo at the beach and am sure that you will, too. Come to Dewey Beach this year and see for yourself. Linda & Jim Pellien Accommodations: bullet Studio has a double fold-out "Murphy" bed plus a queen sleep-sofa (Max = 4 persons) bullet Dorm-Size Refrigerator bullet Two Burner Stove Top bullet Dishes - Cookware, Etc. bullet Coffee Maker bullet Toaster bullet Cable TV/HBO bullet Stereo - Cassetter Player bullet Solarium Area With Dining Table bullet Outdoor Swimming Pool bullet Hot Tub & Sauna bullet Bicycles bullet Videos bullet Outdoor Grill bullet Commercial Washer/Dryer bullet Ice Machine bullet Popcorn, Coffee/Tea Available in the Lobby bullet Daily Housekeeping Linda & Jim Pellien jim@pellien.com 703-313-4818 ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:56 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach Jim, This type information has no place on this list. If anymore like it is put up, I will simply get off the list. Go rent it to someone who cares. I hope the master of the list removes you from the list. Do Not Archive -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:27 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: ZA extrusion photo --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Randy, Your diligence is MOST appreciated. I think I will follow BN's suggestion and return to my supplier looking for "Material Certs." Got plenty of time... Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy L. Thwing Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 5:50 PM OK, now I'm at home where I have both a camera and extrusions I purchased from ZA. This is my first attempt at attaching a photo to the list so wish me luck. Referring to my previous posts, the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 seems to be the "square corner" specification. There is no filet on the inside and the legs or flanges are a constant size with no taper. The larger 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 extrusion meets neither specification I described. It does not have "square corners" on the inside, it has a filet, yet it has no taper on the legs or flanges, so it really doesn't meet the "American Standard" spec I described. When you order from the mill in quantity, you can have any shape made of any material made to any specification. Is this what ZA is doing? Obviously, I don't have the complete answer. I wish I had a sample of the "American Standard" cross section to compare what ZA furnishes. I now believe that ZA extrusions are "mill specials" that you wouldn't find in any normal stocking situation. That doesn't mean that you couldn't use readily available stock sizes and alter them to "near" ZA shape. I've done my best to determine what is the real story here, maybe other listers can add to this story. Best Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, NV ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:34 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Bill, I'll follow-up with the supplier to see Material Certs. If I cannot verify, then I'll simply repurchase a verifiable product. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... 2. Anyone dealing in critical materials should have "Material Certs" that come in with every shipment on file. Kick back, relax, and ask to see the applicable cert, which will tell you the exact composition of the alloy. Bill Naumuk 40%HDS being relocated to new shop Townville, Pa > > > ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:26 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach Jim, Apology accepted. -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:24 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Chances are it's 5052, which is the 'standard' angle shipped by most distributors if you don't specify 6061-T6. Your best bet is to call the company you bought it from and ask for the material certification that should have come with your order. Most companies add a surcharge for the certs, but it's sometimes the only way you can be sure you're getting what you ordered. Angle and Extrusion aren't always ink marked as aluminum sheet is. If the company you purchased the extrusion from doesn't offer certs, switch companies. McMaster Carr carries everything you might need if you can't find another source, although they are about 10% more expensive on average. If you're still set on identifying your particular extrusion, you won't be happy. The equipment to test is available, but runs about $1000 for the temper test alone. You still won't know the metallurgy at that point. You DON'T want to put a softer or more brittle type of aluminum on the aircraft, especially the if we're talking about the longerons. Gary Boothe wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Randy, You are most helpful. Since this was not a special order item that I acquired (1 1/2" x 1 1/2" ext.aluminum), and since it has sharp corners and no inside web, and since it has uniformly thick flanges, chances are that it is 6063. Do I understand correctly? Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... American Standard: Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles, channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends. Sharp Corner: Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are sharp, with nearly invisible radii. but ONLY on the inside. There is also a filet where the two legs join. If you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square, if you put a square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet, and the legs are tapered. The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not a perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside and it will measure square. There is no taper of the flanges or legs. When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily available in the "American Standard" shape. If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but is available in 6063-T52. Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals" book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52 angle. Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas > FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder > workshop were absolutely square. I have purchased > other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that > were square. > > Scott Laughlin ________________________________ Message 74 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:40 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: GPS Milburn, 396 with weather overlay $2495. Can buy a cradle for it in your airplane and another for your car. Plop it into your aircraft to see aviation information (moving map), as well as weather conditions via satellite,.you can also see the locations of other nearby aircraft, just like what the controllers see, for all aircraft that are using a transponder, provided you also have the GTX-330 Transponder with Traffic Information Service (TIS). Then take the 396 out of the aircraft after your flight and put it into the automobile cradle and see a moving map of roadways, interstates, restaurant locations and stores. There are many less capable GPS systems from Garmin starting at about $400. Just do a google search on "Aviation GPS" and have fund learning about all of the new GPS offerings. The 396 is probably the best price/performance Portable GPS on the market as I speak. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes Sky Bryce Airport (VG18) Basye, VA www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Milburn Reed Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:08 PM Please advise what GPS I should buy to use here on the ranch http://www.directcon.net/reedranch/ on the ground as well as later in my 701 when I get it built? How do you correlate Latitude and Longitude with township and range ? Mil Reed ________________________________ Message 75 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:40 PM PST US From: "Russell J." Subject: Zenith-List: extrusions the attach photo out of the "Ryerson" stock list handbook, page 340 might shed some light on the question concerning the angle shapes. R. Johnson / 601-HDS do not archive ________________________________ Message 76 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:33 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: RE : Zenith-List: ZA extrusion photo --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Randy, all the extrusions I bought have the round internal corner - and where all printed with "6061-T6", measurements and mill name (I presume that was mill name). At the place where I bought some of the material, I heard somebody explaining to a new employee that the extrusions with the round internal corner (filet) is "structural". Now, for peace of mind, may I suggest: get rid of the unknown material and get some from a reliable source. I don't know what is the current price of 6061-T6 extrusions, but it can't be so high that it would justify a full scale investigation on the origins of this piece... There ya go, my 2 cents. Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada --- "Randy L. Thwing" a crit : > OK, now I'm at home where I have both a camera and extrusions I > purchased from ZA. This is my first attempt at attaching a photo to the > list so wish me luck. Referring to my previous posts, the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 > seems to be the "square corner" specification. __________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 77 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:51 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dewey Beach Condo Rental - Right on the beach Steve, For gosh sakes, I apologized to the group. What more do you want? It was a mistake. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes Sky Bryce Airport (VG18) Basye, VA www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hulland Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:35 PM Jim, This type information has no place on this list. If anymore like it is put up, I will simply get off the list. Go rent it to someone who cares. I hope the master of the list removes you from the list. Do Not Archive -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 78 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:54 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: To paint or not to paint Living up here in Seattle, I plan on painting for two reasons 1) Seattle is a highly corrosive environment ( physically, not socially :-) ). 2) I'm spending a lot of money and a lot of time on a project that is a different type of plane, so why shouldn't I make it look different? These planes are expressions of ourselves, so I'm choosing to give my bird a very unique paint scheme. I also like the look of shiny polished airplanes like Cessna 120/140s. The point is the choice is yours, just like the panel you build up. -John in Seattle On 7/17/06, Bryan Martin wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > leave it as bare unpolished aluminum. Unless you live in a very > corrosive environment, it'll last longer than you will. > > > On Jul 17, 2006, at 2:16 PM, raymondj wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "raymondj" > > > > > > Much of the discussion about paint or not seems to revolve around > > appearance. I'm trying maximize my efficiency (be lazy) when it > > comes to the > > finish. I understand the importance of corrosion protection, but I'm > > wondering if there is some process out there that offers adequate > > protection, though it may look bad, with less work than either > > paint or > > polish. > > > > Raymond Julian > > Kettle River, MN. > > Corvair core acquired > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ Message 79 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:15 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: most anti-aviation city in the nation --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" (this does apply to the aviation issue)Flying craft means any vehicle designed for navigation in the air or through outer space, including but not limited to airplanes, helicopters and hot air balloons. At what point does a series of parts become an airplane? I notice it doesn't include ultralites which by US federal law are described as vehicles and specifically not airplanes! I wonder if this could be expanded to the huge fins on the 60s Chryslers After all they were designed to be reminiscent of rockets of the day. Enclose the carport with canvas... Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Keith Ashcraft > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:59 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: most anti-aviation city in the nation > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft > > > All. > This information has been floating around in a couple of > other "Groups" > that I belong to. It might be worth checking out if you are in the > Florida area. > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/browse_t > hread/thread/688f409b9c514e53/25ddcbef1957bb52#25ddcbef1957bb52 > > > Keith > > ************************************ > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary > and intended solely > for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed. If you have > received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. > Please note that any views > or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the > author and do not > necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check > this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. > ITT accepts > no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted > by this e-mail. > ************************************ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 80 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:02 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: ZA extrusion photo --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Carlos, I guess I started this, and I can't agree more with you. If I cannot resolve it with a simple question and response I'll buy from a more reputable dealer. Forget what I said about sticking it up his you-know-what. After all, he's bigger than me! Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Now, for peace of mind, may I suggest: get rid of the unknown material and get some from a reliable source. I don't know what is the current price of 6061-T6 extrusions, but it can't be so high that it would justify a full scale investigation on the origins of this piece... There ya go, my 2 cents. Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada --- "Randy L. Thwing" a crit : > OK, now I'm at home where I have both a camera and extrusions I > purchased from ZA. This is my first attempt at attaching a photo to the > list so wish me luck. Referring to my previous posts, the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 > seems to be the "square corner" specification. __________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 81 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:58 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Use the 2024-T3 but be aware that it has significantly less corrosion resistance than 6061-T6. You want to store it in a safe dry area and prime it thoroughly at the earliest possible opportunity. Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: kevinbonds I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. I'm having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source? ________________________________ Message 82 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:30 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: extrusions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" Hello Russell: That is the Ryerson book I referred to in my earlier post. I did not bring up the "aluminum Association" type as that type refers to section with three elements, i.e. web, flange and flange. A angle section has only two sections, i.e. flange and flange. If you compare the Ryerson drawings with my photo of ZA furnished extrusions, the small extrusion compares with the "sharp corner" type, whereas the large extrusion doesn't quite compare with either Sharp corner or American Standard as the flanges or legs have no interior taper. Again, ZA must have this made to their spec and is not standard, but we seek further input. As another lister has just pointed out, the "American Standard" profile of fileted web with tapered flanges is usually referred to as the "structural" type where the "sharp corner" type is referred to as "architectural" type. > the attach photo out of the "Ryerson" stock list handbook, page 340 might > shed some light on the question concerning the angle shapes. > > R. Johnson / 601-HDS ________________________________ Message 83 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:09 PM PST US From: "N601RT" Subject: Zenith-List: What i did on my summer vacation, OR New paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" After flying 550 hours during the last 3+ years without paint on my plane, it finally looks finished. On Sat 7/1/06, I flew to Lake California [Lake California is near Redding, Ca] and was greeted by several friends. Before flying to Lake Ca, I did a bunch of prep work which started with cleaning the entire airframe with alcohol. Other prep included wiring the plane for a wig-wag (alternating flasher), making a landing light lens for the right wing, making an additional small rib to support the landing light mount, modifying the Zenair muffler so the exhaust exits just behind the firewall and is pointed rearward instead of downward, making initial fiberglass part to update the bottom of the lower cowl to compliment the modified exhaust. When I arrived, my friend Larry and I started working on the plane. Clean with alcohol, clean with detergent, repeat several times. Also body work to remove flaws from construction and small wear and tear irregularities from the past. Larrys work for the body work was amazing. I also took the opportunity to repair/replace the strobe power supply and install a modified Duck Works (http://www.romeolima.com/Duckworks/RVLightKits/rvlightkits.htm ) landing light in the right wing to compliment the one in the left wing. I replaced the capacator in the strobe power supply, but that did not fix the power supply. We used a 2 part PPG Shopline epoxy primer and three part PPG Shopline acrylic paint. Larry did all the spraying. The dark horizontal stripe is purple. The red is a very close match to the red in the Arplast propeller. I flew back to Oregon on Sunday, 7/9/06. One of the attached pictures is N601RT just after painting. The other is N601RT and N601LG. See you at Oshkosh. I expect to arrive Monday and leave Friday. Regards, Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped, 562hrs, 674 landings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48145#48145 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_2183_medium_105.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc_0214_medium_699.jpg ________________________________ Message 84 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:50 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. Good to know. I assumed all "extruded" angles had square edges (of course you know what they say about assuming . . .). Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:55 PM Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties. Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root (called square root angles). All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied by ZAC have square edges and roots. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes! ________________________________ Message 85 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:50 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Scrap-builder Question. I meant to say, "I assumed all extruded angle had ROUND edges". I'm so confused. But thanks for the info. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinbonds Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:58 PM Good to know. I assumed all "extruded" angles had square edges (of course you know what they say about assuming . . .). Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:55 PM Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties. Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root (called square root angles). All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied by ZAC have square edges and roots. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes!