---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/23/06: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:32 AM - Re: Recent posting (Kemter) 2. 06:32 AM - Re: Zenith new 701 FWF kit (Tommy Walker) 3. 07:45 AM - Resized Picture (Robert L. Stone) 4. 07:45 AM - Re: What to do about the solid rivets on the 701's elevator trai... (Noel Loveys) 5. 07:58 AM - Re: Resized Picture (Tom and Bren Henderson) 6. 08:47 AM - Re: Resized Picture (Dave) 7. 08:50 AM - Re: Resized Picture (Noel Loveys) 8. 08:59 AM - Re: Inspection plates (Gary Boothe) 9. 09:11 AM - Re: Resized Picture resized again (Noel Loveys) 10. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: 601 Hat with tail number (Southern Reflections) 11. 09:24 AM - Re: Resized Picture (kevinbonds) 12. 09:29 AM - Re: Resized Picture (Randy L. Thwing) 13. 09:31 AM - Re: Zenith new 701 FWF kit (Roland Smith) 14. 09:35 AM - Resized Picture (Randy L. Thwing) 15. 10:12 AM - Big holes (Jaybannist@cs.com) 16. 10:19 AM - Re: Resized Picture resized again (Robert L. Stone) 17. 10:28 AM - CH601HD performance with prop stopped (Bruce Bockius) 18. 10:28 AM - Re: Resized Picture (Robert L. Stone) 19. 10:55 AM - Re: Big holes (Lynn Dingfelder) 20. 11:52 AM - Possible Solution (John Collins) 21. 12:13 PM - Re: Big Holes (T. Graziano) 22. 12:13 PM - Re: Big holes (Robert L. Stone) 23. 12:20 PM - Re: Big holes (Tom and Bren Henderson) 24. 01:56 PM - Painting costs. (Paul Mulwitz) 25. 02:56 PM - Re: Resized Picture resized again (Randy L. Thwing) 26. 03:18 PM - Re: Painting costs. (Steve Hulland) 27. 04:31 PM - Re: Resized Picture (Don Lewis) 28. 05:48 PM - Finished part storage. (Dave Ruddiman) 29. 07:00 PM - Re: Finished part storage. (Jaybannist@cs.com) 30. 07:00 PM - Re: Resized Picture (Noel Loveys) 31. 07:02 PM - Re: Finished part storage. (Randy L. Thwing) 32. 07:12 PM - Re: Resized Picture resized again (Noel Loveys) 33. 07:24 PM - Re: [aviation] Finished part storage. (Bruce Bockius) 34. 07:56 PM - Re: Finished part storage. (Tom and Bren Henderson) 35. 08:18 PM - Re: Finished part storage. (Gary Boothe) 36. 08:43 PM - Re: Finished part storage. (Dave Ruddiman) 37. 08:53 PM - Re: Big holes (raymondj) 38. 08:53 PM - Re: CH601HD performance with prop stopped (raymondj) 39. 09:24 PM - Re: Big holes (Dave Ruddiman) 40. 09:35 PM - Re: Finished part storage. (Randy L. Thwing) 41. 10:08 PM - Re: Finished part storage. (xl) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:17 AM PST US From: "Kemter" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Recent posting --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kemter" Those of you who of tired of the huge emails may not know about the BBS Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists. Here's the link: . Scroll down the list and click on Zenith. Dial-up users should especially try it. Huge pictures, no problem. You can still read the messages and not worry about downloading those pesky high resolution pictures. Please, give it a shot and maybe we can all start getting along again... Jim K. Cibolo, TX working on the tail feathers of a 701 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49402#49402 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:18 AM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith new 701 FWF kit --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" I stopped by for a visit a couple of weeks ago while traveling along I-70. I talked with the guy who was working on the new radiator and oil cooler mounts. He said they were changing to a Ring Mount for the 912ULS at Rotax's suggestion to lessen vibration. They designed new cowling too. The oil cooler will be located in front of the passenger seat with a NACA vent providing ventilation. No mention of fairings, etc... Thanks, TommyWalker in Alabama LouB wrote: > The Zenith factory site has some pictures and data on a new Rotax 912 FWF kit for the 701. It looks quite aerodynamic. Anyone now what kind of cruise and top speed improvements might be expected. Are they going to include fairings for the wing struts too? > > Thanks, > Lou -------- Tommy Walker Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49403#49403 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Zenith-List: Resized Picture The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:30 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: What to do about the solid rivets on the 701's elevator trai... Beg, borrow, buy or steal a rivet gun,a flush rivet snap and a reasonable dolly. Practice driving a few rivets on scrap plate first. Then go for it! It worked for every major manufacturer of aircraft for almost a hundred years so it'll probably work for you. Also reference: AC43-13-1B p.p. 4-16, 4-21 Noel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 11:07 PM elevator trai... John, If you are talking about the little 3/32" rivets for the nutplates, here is what I did: Since the rivets are countersunk, I countersunk the holes with a 7/32" drill bit (the same one I used to open the screw holes). For construction of the tail, wings and fuselage, I have various lengths of 2" x 2" structural steel tubes. I placed the rivet head side on top of one of these tubes. I used a 1/4" x 1" steel bolt as a "rivet smasher." I placed the tip of the bolt on the end of the rivet and gave it two or three smart whacks with a hammer to the head of the bolt. These are pretty soft rivets so that's all it takes. If you are scratch building a spar and talking about those rivets, I plead complete ignorance. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:13 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture I can't comment on the dial-up issues, but that's the pefect size if you're trying to show any amount of detail. Anything less and the details are little more than grainy pixels. Nice pic! Do Not Archive "Robert L. Stone" wrote: The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:14 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture I'm sure it's fine. I guess it all comes down to how much of a net loon's time you can use before he wants to hunt you down and beat you. Here is a link to a download time calculator it will allow you calcuklate how long it would take someone to download a file. It's not the best one but it'll work. http://www.snapfiles.com/get/dltime.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Stone To: Zenith List Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Resized Picture The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:00 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Resized Picture I'm on a slooooooow dial-up. There are days that two of the three baboons they have typing the code are on strike for more kibble. All that aside I find that e-mails under 100kb are not usually a problem. My advice would be if you want to send more pictures send them in individual E-Mails and give them easily recognized unique subject lines. e.g. my plane p1, my pane p2. my plane p3, etc. That way if the individuals on the group feel the first picture is something they want to see than they can download the others at their leisure. Noel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom and Bren Henderson Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:27 PM I can't comment on the dial-up issues, but that's the pefect size if you're trying to show any amount of detail. Anything less and the details are little more than grainy pixels. Nice pic! Do Not Archive "Robert L. Stone" wrote: The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:05 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Inspection plates --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Rich, I'm no aeronautical engineer (though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night), but I think you can compute the amount of lift per sq.inch based on the gross weight and wing area and get an average for any location. This would tell you about how much force will be pulling on the plates. Obviously, different parts of the top side of the wing have different values of lift coefficient. My gut feeling tells me that anything located on the low pressure side of the wing would not be a place to put the spring loaded inspection plates without the addition of screws. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Richard Vetterli I just purchased two concave inspection plates from ASS and they are a perfect fit for the fuel level sender access I cut on the top of the wing. However, do they stay on using only the springs or should I drill a few holes for screws or rivets? They seem pretty secure as is. Rich Vetterli 601XL/Corvair Check it out at: www.geocities.com/stixx5a __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:03 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Resized Picture resized again Generally .... most computers are set to a resolution of 800pixels horizontal by 600 pixels vertical. any picture larger than that may be a waste of band width. If you want more resolution then crop in on the specific area you want to show the fine detail. I resized your picture to 800X600 pixels (full screen for most computers) and used a medium file compression. As you turn down the file size in jpg format you will compress the number of colours used to make the picture. for a lot of pics you can compress a long way before it gets objectionable. Of course this is totally subjective. Noel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Stone Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:14 PM The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:45 AM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Hat with tail number ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Venables To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 2:28 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Hat with tail number Add me to the 701 hat list? Roger Venables N143TZ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NYTerminat@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 8:00 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Hat with tail number Me too. Bob Spudis N701ZX In a message dated 7/18/2006 7:55:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, stol10@comcast.net writes: Please tell your friend that I'd like one for a 701.......Geoff Please tell your friends I"d like 2for a601XL Joe Gargner N101HD ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:56 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Resized Picture For the record. Most of my photos, meant for web consumption, aren't more than 75k and about 8X10 by 72dpi with a little jpeg compression. I suggest saving all photos to 72dpi and whatever size you want. 72 dpi is monitor resolution. Unless someone wants to zoom in, any larger than that can't be seen on a computer screen. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom and Bren Henderson Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 9:57 AM I can't comment on the dial-up issues, but that's the pefect size if you're trying to show any amount of detail. Anything less and the details are little more than grainy pixels. Nice pic! Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:19 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture Hello Bob: That pic is 1600 x 1200 pixels. The largest I send out are 800 x 600. 800 x 600 is a common screen viewing size. This size pic fills a screen with a full view with no scroll bars. They average around 200 kb in size and take about 30 to 40 seconds to download with dial-up. I take my pics in large sizes, I do a "save-as" to make another copy, then "resize" the copy in 800 x 600 for transmission, by doing the save-as and making the copy, I still retain the huge original in case someone wants the "detail". I can send that off list and not bother those without interest in that subject. I sell on ebay occasionally, for those sales, I use 300 & 400 pixel wide photos. They are usualy completely adequate to get most points across. Oh course, if I get a request for "more detail", I have my original huge shot to send. I am attaching a 800 x 600 shot of making ZA channel on the TAPCO brake. It's 106 kb in size. For comparison, I am also sending the same shot in 300 and 400 pixel widths. I tested this message to myself before sending, it took my dial-up two minutes to send out, but when it came back from the server, it took 54 seconds. Again, 300 to 400 pixel wide photos get most points across, 800 x 600 is not objectional and fills most screens. Now, for all those that will immediately email me to say no-one uses 800 x 600 resolution any more, that's partly true, but a lot of , uh, let's say "veterans", that won't go get new glasses, (you know who you are), still use that size so they can actually see things on the screen. Best Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Stone To: Zenith List Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 7:44 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Resized Picture The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No virus found in this incoming message. 7/21/2006 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:23 AM PST US From: "Roland Smith" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith new 701 FWF kit --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roland Smith" Anticipating 912ULS purchase for my kit 701 in about 6 months, I look forward to a rigorous, realistic comparison with in-flight data, if possible, between the new Zenith and SportShops Firewall Forward Packages. I enjoy opinions, love facts. And I have had very good experience with both Zenith and SportShops. Roland Smith Bennington, Vermont Wings and Tail N701V requested -------- 701 kit, anticipating Rotax 912 ULS and amphibious trike floats Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49427#49427 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:17 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: Resized Picture And now the "idiot" sends the message "with" the pictures, DUH! Hello Bob: That pic is 1600 x 1200 pixels. The largest I send out are 800 x 600. 800 x 600 is a common screen viewing size. This size pic fills a screen with a full view with no scroll bars. They average around 200 kb in size and take about 30 to 40 seconds to download with dial-up. I take my pics in large sizes, I do a "save-as" to make another copy, then "resize" the copy in 800 x 600 for transmission, by doing the save-as and making the copy, I still retain the huge original in case someone wants the "detail". I can send that off list and not bother those without interest in that subject. I sell on ebay occasionally, for those sales, I use 300 & 400 pixel wide photos. They are usualy completely adequate to get most points across. Oh course, if I get a request for "more detail", I have my original huge shot to send. I am attaching a 800 x 600 shot of making ZA channel on the TAPCO brake. It's 106 kb in size. For comparison, I am also sending the same shot in 300 and 400 pixel widths. I tested this message to myself before sending, it took my dial-up two minutes to send out, but when it came back from the server, it took 54 seconds. Again, 300 to 400 pixel wide photos get most points across, 800 x 600 is not objectional and fills most screens. Now, for all those that will immediately email me to say no-one uses 800 x 600 resolution any more, that's partly true, but a lot of , uh, let's say "veterans", that won't go get new glasses, (you know who you are), still use that size so they can actually see things on the screen. Best Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Stone To: Zenith List Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 7:44 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Resized Picture The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:34 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Big holes I've got another question for the learned group. How do you get a 1 1/8" dia. hole in .090 aluminum? This is for the torque tube bearings. ZAC shows a "flat faced drill bit" but no suggestion as to where one might obtain one of these. I searched the internet to no avail. I don't think a hole saw would make a smooth enough hole for a bearing. I would be afraid to use a fly cutter. Is it possible to get the desired results with a series of step drill bits (in a drill press)? Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture resized again MessageNoel, I am 77 years old and have only had a computer for about 2 years. Needless to say, I have had a lot of trouble learning to use it and it's down right heart breaking to see 10 year old kids that are more proficient than myself. The only redeeming factor is that I knew how to type since high school days way back in the 40's Just to show you how dumb I am, I could understand most of your reply and the rest might as well have been Chinese. I can speak English or course and I am almost fluent in German, now I must learn computer. The best of luck with whatever you ae building. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 11:05 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Resized Picture resized again Generally .... most computers are set to a resolution of 800pixels horizontal by 600 pixels vertical. any picture larger than that may be a waste of band width. If you want more resolution then crop in on the specific area you want to show the fine detail. I resized your picture to 800X600 pixels (full screen for most computers) and used a medium file compression. As you turn down the file size in jpg format you will compress the number of colours used to make the picture. for a lot of pics you can compress a long way before it gets objectionable. Of course this is totally subjective. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Stone Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:14 PM To: Zenith List Subject: Zenith-List: Resized Picture The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:24 AM PST US From: "Bruce Bockius" Subject: Zenith-List: CH601HD performance with prop stopped Airplane: N269BB CH601HD, Stratus EA-81 engine, 664 lb empty weight, Warp drive 70" tapered 3-blade prop, Taildragger w/factory wheel pants Test conditions: OAT 69F, calm surface winds, apparently calm winds at altitude, approx 205lbs of fuel/pilot/junk on board. Test: Climbed to 10000MSL, pulled throttle to idle (1100 engine RPM, ~500 prop RPM). Established 50KIAS on a constant heading. Descended 1000 ft with prop idling, monitoring glide ratio as displayed on a GPS receiver. Stopped engine (prop stops) and descended another 1000ft. Restarted engine at idle and descended another 1000ft. Climbed back up to 10000MSL and repeated this test on a reciprocal heading. Results: Glide ratio varied from 9.0 to 8.0. The higher was observed at higher altitudes, as would be expected. Glide ratio fluctuated +/- 0.3 throughout the test, probably due to my failure to completely control air speed and the vagueness of GPS calculated (non-WAAS) altitude. Any difference in glide ratio with the prop idling versus the prop stopped was below the noise error of my readings (<0.3). Conclusion: At the slow speeds likely to be encountered during an engine out scenario in a CH600/700 series a stopped prop does not produce significant drag. See http://www.whiteantelopesoftware.com/zodiac/perform.htm for other performance figures/details on this plane. -Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus/496 hrs Bruce Bockius Black Forest, Colorado, USA bruceb@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture Tom & Bren, Thanks for the response, it was just what I was looking for. Just a little human interest item, the paint job on that aircraft cost the owner a little over $8,000.00. I am going to paint mine red/white my self for the cost of the paint, primer, sandpaper and a lot of work and praying since I am not a professional painter. I think I can do it with the best stuf money can buy for about $500.00 just for the materials. Good luck with whatever you are building. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom and Bren Henderson To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture I can't comment on the dial-up issues, but that's the pefect size if you're trying to show any amount of detail. Anything less and the details are little more than grainy pixels. Nice pic! Do Not Archive "Robert L. Stone" wrote: The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:53 AM PST US From: "Lynn Dingfelder" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Big holes Jay, My standard method is to drill undersize (1" in this case), and open bigger with a sanding drum in a drill. I first mark the desired perimeter and work out to the line. A hole saw can be used this way, but otherwise is not precision enough. Lynn Corry PA 601XL tails & wings done ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:47 AM PST US From: John Collins Subject: Zenith-List: Possible Solution I have been following the list for quite a while now, first in "real-time" mode and then in digest form. As I am away from the computer for significant periods of time, my mailbox filled up from the real-time messages, so I shifted to digest format, thereby missing out on the pictures. Also, my net access varies from dialup to broadband, depending on where we are at the time. After following the flame war about file size, I sent a message to Matt asking if there was any objection to my setting up another e-mail account and subscribing to the list in real-time on that account. This will allow me to read the digests on my normal account and go to the second account if I want to see a specific attachment. If there is nothing I want to download, I can just blow the real-times away in a batch. Matt said there would be no problem, so I have done so. Just a suggestion -- technology sometimes needs a firm hand on the reins! John Collins San Diego and Panama --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:03 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Big Holes I used the Uni-Bits (great tools) for holes in sheet metal from about 5/16 inch (8mm) up to I believe 1-1/4 inch dia.(30.5mm). Any good hardware store has them. Tony Graziano 601XL N493TG; 118 hrs and just finished first Annual Conditional Inspection Big holes From: Jaybannist@cs.com Date: Sun Jul 23 - 10:12 AM I've got another question for the learned group. How do you get a 1 1/8" dia. hole in .090 aluminum? This is for the torque tube bearings. ZAC shows a "flat faced drill bit" but no suggestion as to where one might obtain one of these. I searched the internet to no avail. I don't think a hole saw would make a smooth enough hole for a bearing. I would be afraid to use a fly cutter. Is it possible to get the desired results with a series of step drill bits (in a drill press)? Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:15 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Big holes Jay, I had the same problem and did it with a fly cutter but not with the regular tool steel cutter. I took an old file and ground it to look like a knife blade on one end the other end to fit into the cutter slot on the fly cutter. Draw it down on the .090 sharp end first and apply pressure very slowly. This will make the most clean cut you ever saw. When you think you have the cutter adjusted to end up with a hole 1 & 1/8th, check by drawing the blade down on a piece of wood and check the diameter. Aluminum is soft and much easier to work than any other metal I know of unless it has been alloyed with harder metals Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Big holes I've got another question for the learned group. How do you get a 1 1/8" dia. hole in .090 aluminum? This is for the torque tube bearings. ZAC shows a "flat faced drill bit" but no suggestion as to where one might obtain one of these. I searched the internet to no avail. I don't think a hole saw would make a smooth enough hole for a bearing. I would be afraid to use a fly cutter. Is it possible to get the desired results with a series of step drill bits (in a drill press)? Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:25 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Big holes If you find that you still have problems making a clean hole, I have several extra Torque Tube Bearings for the XL. I'd send you one if you wanted to pay shipping. The 1.125 DIA hole on these was punched with a single punch of the correct size, so they look great. Let me know off-list if you're interested. Do Not Archive Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: I've got another question for the learned group. How do you get a 1 1/8" dia. hole in .090 aluminum? This is for the torque tube bearings. ZAC shows a "flat faced drill bit" but no suggestion as to where one might obtain one of these. I searched the internet to no avail. I don't think a hole saw would make a smooth enough hole for a bearing. I would be afraid to use a fly cutter. Is it possible to get the desired results with a series of step drill bits (in a drill press)? Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:59 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Zenith-List: Painting costs. Hi Bob, Please don't leave out the safety equipment you need to do the painting. You will need some sort of breathing gear and gloves along with the spraying equipment. There are many choices of breathing gear, but you should at least use a high quality face mask which will cost almost as much as the paint. Paul XL fuselage At 10:08 AM 7/23/2006, you wrote: >Tom & Bren, > Thanks for the response, it was just what I was looking > for. Just a little human interest item, the paint job on that > aircraft cost the owner a little over $8,000.00. I am going to > paint mine red/white my self for the cost of the paint, primer, > sandpaper and a lot of work and praying since I am not a > professional painter. I think I can do it with the best stuf money > can buy for about $500.00 just for the materials. Good luck with > whatever you are building. > >Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx >Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:51 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture resized again MessageHello Bob: All your questions can be aswered from experienced people on this list. My suggestion is to ask just one thing at a time. We'll take it easy with you. I am going to make the claim that I taught the World's oldest CAD (computer aided design) user. Bill Harrold, retired highest level Lockheed Aeronautical engineer. He worked at their spy satellite plant in San Jose. At 84 or 85 I set up a computor and started teaching him CAD drawing in his hanger. He became a 2D expert. Bill redesigned the wing of the Wag-Aero Pacer one of our guys is building. One feature is that the ribs were constructed from square aluminum tubing. The needed tubing wasn't available, so Bill designed, and I built, a bench top rolling mill. Round tubing goes in one end and squared tubing with rounded corners comes out the other. Attached is a pic of Bill with the rolling mill and another pic of it close up. We lost Bill 18 months, I sure miss him. He was proof a guy his age could still learn the new tricks. Ask away Bob! Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture resized again Noel, I am 77 years old and have only had a computer for about 2 years. Needless to say, I have had a lot of trouble learning to use it and it's down right heart breaking to see 10 year old kids that are more proficient than myself. The only redeeming factor is that I knew how to type since high school days way back in the 40's Just to show you how dumb I am, I could understand most of your reply and the rest might as well have been Chinese. I can speak English or course and I am almost fluent in German, now I must learn computer. The best of luck with whatever you ae building. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:43 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting costs. Bob, Paul is correct, good breathing equipment is a must. I use an older (10 years) refurbished Scott Fire Fighter SCBA. Gives me 30-40 minutes of self-contained breathing air. Each year I have the mask fit tested and the SCBA itself checked for proper regulator, mouthpiece and harness operation. Since I work as a firefighter (both volunteer and career) it is easy to fill the air bottle. It is a com posit bottle so the SCBA is not very heavy and it is easy to work with it on. I clean it up right after use in order to prevent over-spray buildup on the SCBA and facepiece. Point is, a good breathing apparatus is a must if you are to protect your lungs. They are the most delicate cells in your body and are exposed to outside intrusion of "stuff" from birth to death. You can buy a good overhauled used SCBA from Dalmatian Fire on line. About $250 for the unit and then you gotta find a good bottle. Good steel ones are cheap and can be hydro statically tested cheaply every five years, but are very heavy. Anyway, good luck with your paint adventure. -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:49 PM PST US From: "Don Lewis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture Bob, You can build your own fresh air supply; see: http://www.geocities.com/snjdrvr/air_supply.html At the very least, get the best mask you can... Check with an auto paint store and tell them you need a unit for 2 part paint... I know of three people who have damaged their lungs by not doing so......... Do Not Archive Don Lewis http://don-lewis.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Stone To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:08 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Resized Picture I am going to paint mine red/white my self for the cost of the paint, primer, sandpaper and a lot of work and praying since I am not a professional painter. I think I can do it with the best stuf money can buy for about $500.00 just for the materials. Good luck with whatever you are building. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:26 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. Listers, I am trying to figure out a simple way to store finished components in a relatively small space. My shop is about 25 x 26 feet. I have windows on 2 sides and an overhead door on 1 side. The other wall is already full. What are you guys doing to store flaps, slats, elevator etc. I don't want to take anything to the hangar until I paint. Trying to find a good way to store overhead or? Any ideas? Dave in Salem 801 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:21 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. Dave, I built a storage cart to store my wings (with ailerons), horizontal stab/elevator, and flaps. It is covered with a tarp and I keep it outdoors. Contact me off line if you are interested and I will send you a drawing of what I built. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:21 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Resized Picture True there are more high res screens coming into use but most of the people who use them are heavy into graphics any how and will be able to change their resolution at the drop of a hat. Noel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy L. Thwing Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 2:02 PM And now the "idiot" sends the message "with" the pictures, DUH! Hello Bob: That pic is 1600 x 1200 pixels. The largest I send out are 800 x 600. 800 x 600 is a common screen viewing size. This size pic fills a screen with a full view with no scroll bars. They average around 200 kb in size and take about 30 to 40 seconds to download with dial-up. I take my pics in large sizes, I do a "save-as" to make another copy, then "resize" the copy in 800 x 600 for transmission, by doing the save-as and making the copy, I still retain the huge original in case someone wants the "detail". I can send that off list and not bother those without interest in that subject. I sell on ebay occasionally, for those sales, I use 300 & 400 pixel wide photos. They are usualy completely adequate to get most points across. Oh course, if I get a request for "more detail", I have my original huge shot to send. I am attaching a 800 x 600 shot of making ZA channel on the TAPCO brake. It's 106 kb in size. For comparison, I am also sending the same shot in 300 and 400 pixel widths. I tested this message to myself before sending, it took my dial-up two minutes to send out, but when it came back from the server, it took 54 seconds. Again, 300 to 400 pixel wide photos get most points across, 800 x 600 is not objectional and fills most screens. Now, for all those that will immediately email me to say no-one uses 800 x 600 resolution any more, that's partly true, but a lot of , uh, let's say "veterans", that won't go get new glasses, (you know who you are), still use that size so they can actually see things on the screen. Best Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 7:44 AM The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:39 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. Hello Dave: The dining room is the best place to store airplane parts. In the attached pic you can see ZA parts and metal in the background, newly upholsterd Bonanza seats on the floor to the right, and a Bonanza ruddervator on the dining room table. Again the dining room is the safest place for the parts, not necessarily the safest place for the builder. Special note: My wife just moved the rolled metal into the dining room out of the garage so she could pull her car into the garage! Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, NV do not archive Subject: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. Listers, I am trying to figure out a simple way to store finished components in a relatively small space. My shop is about 25 x 26 feet. I have windows on 2 sides and an overhead door on 1 side. The other wall is already full. What are you guys doing to store flaps, slats, elevator etc. I don't want to take anything to the hangar until I paint. Trying to find a good way to store overhead or? Any ideas? Dave in Salem 801 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:16 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Resized Picture resized again Bob: My congratulations to you. my mother started taking lessons on the computer at age 74 so I have some idea of what you are up against. You have reached an age where you don't need to worry about the hows or the whys as long as you can benefit some entertainment from it. A couple of years ago I went back to technical school. I was amazed at how many things I could do that classmates who were thirty years younger than me could not do. So much for the idea of getting a teenager to program your VCR /;^) Keep on trying anything else new that comes along. Noel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Stone Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 2:47 PM Noel, I am 77 years old and have only had a computer for about 2 years. Needless to say, I have had a lot of trouble learning to use it and it's down right heart breaking to see 10 year old kids that are more proficient than myself. The only redeeming factor is that I knew how to type since high school days way back in the 40's Just to show you how dumb I am, I could understand most of your reply and the rest might as well have been Chinese. I can speak English or course and I am almost fluent in German, now I must learn computer. The best of luck with whatever you ae building. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 11:05 AM Generally .... most computers are set to a resolution of 800pixels horizontal by 600 pixels vertical. any picture larger than that may be a waste of band width. If you want more resolution then crop in on the specific area you want to show the fine detail. I resized your picture to 800X600 pixels (full screen for most computers) and used a medium file compression. As you turn down the file size in jpg format you will compress the number of colours used to make the picture. for a lot of pics you can compress a long way before it gets objectionable. Of course this is totally subjective. Noel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Stone Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:14 PM The software system use to reduce the size of the attached picture was Microsoft Digital Pro 9. I would like to know if the size it has been reduced to is suitable for members who are using a telphone modum. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:37 PM PST US From: "Bruce Bockius" Subject: RE: [aviation] Zenith-List: Finished part storage. I hung a 4x8 sheet of plywood suspended about 8" below the ceiling of my garage (about 1" above where the garage door "rolls up") to store large sheets of metal and parts on. Not convenient to get to, but good for long-term storage. Oh, yeah, and my wife's walk-in closet in our bedroom became an airplane parts storage area. -Bruce -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Ruddiman Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 6:41 PM Listers, I am trying to figure out a simple way to store finished components in a relatively small space. My shop is about 25 x 26 feet. I have windows on 2 sides and an overhead door on 1 side. The other wall is already full. What are you guys doing to store flaps, slats, elevator etc. I don't want to take anything to the hangar until I paint. Trying to find a good way to store overhead or? Any ideas? Dave in Salem 801 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:43 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. If you're like most of us, you've got 4' X 12' worth of un-used storage space beneath your assembly table. I've found it a great space to store the entire tail assembly, as well as the larger skins and longerons. I added three levels (1'-6" tall each) of shelves to contain it all. I imagine it probably cost less than $40 for the material. Do Not Archive Dave Ruddiman wrote: Listers, I am trying to figure out a simple way to store finished components in a relatively small space. My shop is about 25 x 26 feet. I have windows on 2 sides and an overhead door on 1 side. The other wall is already full. What are you guys doing to store flaps, slats, elevator etc. I don't want to take anything to the hangar until I paint. Trying to find a good way to store overhead or? Any ideas? Dave in Salem 801 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:04 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. All my parts are stored in the ceiling area of the garage. I built a cradle for each wing that swivels down for easy loading, then pulled back up with rope and small pulley. Both wings fit under the roll up garage door. .but the dining room!! Now there's an idea!! Oh, wait, I'm married and intend to stay that way.oh, well.. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Hello Dave: The dining room is the best place to store airplane parts... Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, NV do not archive Listers, I am trying to figure out a simple way to store finished components in a relatively small space. My shop is about 25 x 26 feet. I have windows on 2 sides and an overhead door on 1 side. The other wall is already full. What are you guys doing to store flaps, slats, elevator etc. I don't want to take anything to the hangar until I paint. Trying to find a good way to store overhead or? Any ideas? Dave in Salem 801 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:41 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. Hi Everyone, I've been reading the responses about storage. All seem like good ideas. I like the dining room storage. I have one of those living rooms that has to look nice for company, but no one comes over, and I can't sit in it, that would work perfect. But since my project can be a sore subject, I guess I better stay out of the house with it. Where did you guys get the understanding wives? Mine was that way about 20 yrs ago. I wonder what happened? Dave in Salem 801 ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 8:14 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. All my parts are stored in the ceiling area of the garage. I built a cradle for each wing that swivels down for easy loading, then pulled back up with rope and small pulley. Both wings fit under the roll up garage door. .but the dining room!! Now there's an idea!! Oh, wait, I'm married and intend to stay that way.oh, well.. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Hello Dave: The dining room is the best place to store airplane parts... Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, NV do not archive Subject: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. Listers, I am trying to figure out a simple way to store finished components in a relatively small space. My shop is about 25 x 26 feet. I have windows on 2 sides and an overhead door on 1 side. The other wall is already full. What are you guys doing to store flaps, slats, elevator etc. I don't want to take anything to the hangar until I paint. Trying to find a good way to store overhead or? Any ideas? Dave in Salem 801 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:41 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Big holes You might try a Forsner bit. Used in woodworking. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. Corvair core acquired. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:11 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Big holes I've got another question for the learned group. How do you get a 1 1/8" dia. hole in .090 aluminum? This is for the torque tube bearings. ZAC shows a "flat faced drill bit" but no suggestion as to where one might obtain one of these. I searched the internet to no avail. I don't think a hole saw would make a smooth enough hole for a bearing. I would be afraid to use a fly cutter. Is it possible to get the desired results with a series of step drill bits (in a drill press)? Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:41 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH601HD performance with prop stopped Thanks for some EXPERIMENTAL DATA !!!!! Nice web site. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN Corvair core acquired -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Bockius Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:09 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: CH601HD performance with prop stopped Airplane: N269BB CH601HD, Stratus EA-81 engine, 664 lb empty weight, Warp drive 70" tapered 3-blade prop, Taildragger w/factory wheel pants Test conditions: OAT 69F, calm surface winds, apparently calm winds at altitude, approx 205lbs of fuel/pilot/junk on board. Test: Climbed to 10000MSL, pulled throttle to idle (1100 engine RPM, ~500 prop RPM). Established 50KIAS on a constant heading. Descended 1000 ft with prop idling, monitoring glide ratio as displayed on a GPS receiver. Stopped engine (prop stops) and descended another 1000ft. Restarted engine at idle and descended another 1000ft. Climbed back up to 10000MSL and repeated this test on a reciprocal heading. Results: Glide ratio varied from 9.0 to 8.0. The higher was observed at higher altitudes, as would be expected. Glide ratio fluctuated +/- 0.3 throughout the test, probably due to my failure to completely control air speed and the vagueness of GPS calculated (non-WAAS) altitude. Any difference in glide ratio with the prop idling versus the prop stopped was below the noise error of my readings (<0.3). Conclusion: At the slow speeds likely to be encountered during an engine out scenario in a CH600/700 series a stopped prop does not produce significant drag. See http://www.whiteantelopesoftware.com/zodiac/perform.htm for other performance figures/details on this plane. -Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus/496 hrs Bruce Bockius Black Forest, Colorado, USA bruceb@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac/ ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Big holes Jay, I have a set of Rotabroach sheet metal cutters. They are expensive but they work very well. They actually cut holes, not saw or drill them. Look up Rotabroach on your browser. I looked them up. They do come in the size you want, but I don't know how much they are. Dave in Salem 801 ----- Original Message ----- From: raymondj To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Big holes You might try a Forsner bit. Used in woodworking. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. Corvair core acquired. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:11 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Big holes I've got another question for the learned group. How do you get a 1 1/8" dia. hole in .090 aluminum? This is for the torque tube bearings. ZAC shows a "flat faced drill bit" but no suggestion as to where one might obtain one of these. I searched the internet to no avail. I don't think a hole saw would make a smooth enough hole for a bearing. I would be afraid to use a fly cutter. Is it possible to get the desired results with a series of step drill bits (in a drill press)? Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:48 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. The bigger questions is: Where did you guys get the NON-understanding wives? Remember the "Lay down the Law" post? Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, Do not archive Where did you guys get the understanding wives? ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:33 PM PST US From: xl Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Finished part storage. --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl I built my 601XL in a 10'x20' tent and had room for storage. Here's a pointer to a picture: http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/in_tent2_small.jpg The elevator is behind the closest wing. I wish I had a 25'x26' workshop - it's relatively big! My wife let me put the tent in our yard, the tent just fit. see: http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/in_yard1_small.jpg Joe E N633Z @ BFI CH601XL 369 hours (couldn't help responding - do not archive!) On Sun, 23 Jul 2006, Dave Ruddiman wrote: > Listers, > > I am trying to figure out a simple way to store finished components in > a relatively small space. My shop is about 25 x 26 feet. I have windows > on 2 sides and an overhead door on 1 side. The other wall is already > full. What are you guys doing to store flaps, slats, elevator etc. I > don't want to take anything to the hangar until I paint. Trying to find > a good way to store overhead or? Any ideas? > Dave in Salem > 801