Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:00 AM - Re: Firewall rivets (Noel Loveys)
2. 06:16 AM - Re: Plating Zodiac landing gear (Kelly Meiste)
3. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Hat Stiffener Press + Pic of the day (Debo Cox)
4. 06:51 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (dfmoeller)
5. 06:59 AM - Re: Plating Zodiac landing gear (LarryMcFarland)
6. 07:07 AM - Leg Gear Plate (Tim Perkins)
7. 07:23 AM - composite gear (John Bolding)
8. 07:48 AM - Re: Firewall rivets (Edward Moody II)
9. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 Tachometer Problems (Noel Loveys)
10. 09:15 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (David X)
11. 09:27 AM - Re: Re: Hat Stiffener Press (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 01:11 PM - (CH701) problems measuring 7H3-3SP (John Marzulli)
13. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: Firewall rivets ()
14. 05:41 PM - Garanger (Bill Naumuk)
15. 05:43 PM - Re: Firewall rivets (LarryMcFarland)
16. 05:45 PM - Re: Garanger (Bill Naumuk)
17. 08:36 PM - Re: Garanger (Gary Boothe)
Message 1
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250 yr??? Probably depends on how much humidity the plane has to
endure.
Dissimilar metals will live together in the absence of water/humidity.
Electrolytic salts will also speed up the process.
If you have to use dissimilar rivets etc. then the idea of using zinc
chromate and/or sealant around the rivets as they are being pulled is a
good
one.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 4:07 AM
There has been some posts about this "discimilar metals" danger of
corrosion... It beguin when I told the list about the SS firewall we
built
for my 701...
I cant remember what the final results of this tread were... Probably
the
plane will fall apart because of corrosion in 250 years :-) :-)
Just in case, to be on the safe side, I put some Zinc Chromate in a
little
cup and wetted each rivet in the firewall before installing and
pulling,
also double checked that we painted the touching parts with plenty ZC,
Hope it holds the next 25 plus years I think I will be able to continue
flying... :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
701 912S
601 XL in progress...
VideoFlyer@aol.com wrote:
<<<<<If your fire wall is stainless steel then any rivets, nuts or
washers
attached to it should also be stainless to reduce the occurrence of
dissimilar metal corrosion.>>>
The firewall is steel...either galvanized or stainless. But the "L"
braces
and the channels are aluminum. Aren't those dissimilar metals? What's
the
difference between aluminum rivets in stainless steel...and stainless
rivets
in aluminum?
Dave
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Plating Zodiac landing gear |
Hi George,
At my previous employer we used to have problems with hydrogen
embitterment in all types of steel (CR, HR, spring/ music wire, and tool
steels) after plating. We finally solved this problem by making sure the
product was placed in an oven within 15 minutes after plating, and then
baked for 2 hours at temp of 350 deg F.
Problem solved.
Kelly Meiste
601 HD with plated 6L3 main gear lower bearing supports (140 hours)
----- Original Message -----
From: George Swinford
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:37 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Plating Zodiac landing gear
I remember from my days as a Boeing engineer that 4130N steel is not
subject to embrittlement from plating, but I don't have access to the
material and process handbooks anymore to be sure about it. Maybe
someone on the list can can put their hands on this kind of information
and clear the issue up. Anybody...?
George
Do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Hat Stiffener Press + Pic of the day |
Thanks guys. I'm glad the press idea sparked a little head-scratchin'. That's the
really cool thing about this list. One guy finds a way to get himself out of
a pickle - shares it, and gets a dozen good ideas back in the process. And you
thought the internet was just good for lookin' at porn.
Ron, I laughed out loud like a moron when I read about the "200lb gravity actuated
stomp press" - classic.
Debo Cox
Nags Head, NC
XL/Corvair (working on wing parts)
do not archive
---------------------------------
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "dfmoeller" <dfmoeller@austin.rr.com>
Excellent work. Just what I was looking for. thanks!
Doug
David X wrote:
> My CG attached. Also attached spreadsheet to help work out CG cenarios. Rear
baggage is a big problem if you have two good sized people in the plane. The wing
lockers are a must in that type of scenario.
>
> I don't care what anyone from Zenair says the standard motor mount that you
get for the 912 is flawed as far as CG is concerned. Hey, I can do the grade-school
math as well as the next guy.
>
> To solve the problem, I had a special mount and cowling made by CZAW to move
the 912 engine forward 4 additional inches from original design. The empty CG
is now 12", which is so/so. It was more than 14" with the standard mount; which
is awful. It aught to be more like 10 but the nose would be too long and would
interfere with visibility.
>
> Im toying with the idea of using the composite gear; which should improve the
CG and useful load at the same time.
>
>
>
>
> dfmoeller wrote:
> > Does anyone have a good sample (meaning realistic) of a W&B sheet for a 601XL
with Rotax 912ULS? And can you scan it and send to me? I'm trying to get
a sanity check on my numbers.
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50544#50544
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Plating Zodiac landing gear |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
George,
I believe you're correct, but the weld causes metal to change just a
little and the touch downs and hard braking or turning are what cause
the edge of the weld to begin to
crack. The hydrogen imbrittlement would act on the weld material and
perhaps shorten the time between use and breakage. I believe we're
getting between 100 hours
and 300 hours on these gear plates when they let go. The very slight
bending is a repeating action that takes a bit of time to get a crack
started. It's probably worse
for the heavier 601s like mine that have got a 730 lb empty weight, so I
try to grease it on and not brake hard until the inertia is pretty well
spent.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
George Swinford wrote:
> I remember from my days as a Boeing engineer that 4130N steel is not
> subject to embrittlement from plating, but I don't have access to the
> material and process handbooks anymore to be sure about it. Maybe
> someone on the list can can put their hands on this kind
> of information and clear the issue up. Anybody...?
>
> George
>
> Do not archive
Message 6
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ron dewees wrote:
>> Jim Pellen's 601HD
>> that lost a gear leg failed at the weld, altho a thicker plate than
>> our 1/8 inch may have helped, or at least encouraged the welder to
>> lay a thicker bead on the joint. I used aprox 3/16" angle iron from
Hi All,
At least in the cases I know of (including my own on June 13, 2006), the
weld itself did NOT fail (see attached). It is the gear plate (the original
1/8" plate on some HD and HDS models) which fails. It can make for a
somewhat interesting, but relatively short ride.
The fix suggested by my A&P, and approved by Nick, is to cut off the
existing 1/8" plates just above the welds and weld new 1/4" plates onto the
leg ends. Of course that's in addition to the estimated $15k in repairs
needed to get my plane airworthy again.
I'll also note that although we were aware of the issue (and discussed
adding gussets), there was no visible sign of a problem at the annual in
mid-April 2006. Thus I made the decision NOT to do anything other than
inspect (as recommended). In retrospect....it was clearly not the way to go.
If I were doing it again, I'd at least gusset it, or weld a new plate on, or
try the sleeve-type fix somebody suggested earlier. It may be a pain...but I
know the alternative quite well at this point....and it's a lot worse.
It appears that the gear plate gets stressed, bends, eventually cracks and
fails. Put a straightedge across the front and rear of each gear plate to
check and see if there is any bend. Mine (after failure) had about a
1.0-1.5mm upward bend along the edges in the center. Not really noticeable
by eye.
Tim Perkins
Message 7
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Glass gear is not a new deal.
I think all the Rutan designs use glass legs . My glasair is over 20 yrs
old (my how time flies when you're having fun) and no sagging (yet) but
there were a few that did due to incomplete cure at manufacture. The fix
was pretty painless, few more layers of glass and put it in the sun with
black plastic on the legs for a few hrs.
As everyone on this list is aware, an airplane is a wheelbarrow full of
compromises swimming along in tight formation.
Something not mentioned yet is the MUCH worse corrosion properties of
7075t6 used on the aftermarket gear .
My 701 is going on floats to be used in saltwater and Chris OKed 6061
instead of 2024 as speced in the early style gear which is used for
float operation.
LOW&SLOW John
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall rivets |
I believe the accepted procedure is to prime the contacting surfaces,
particularly with dissimilar metals (which includes different alloys of
the same basic metal). If that is an accepted practice as is dipping
rivets in Zinc Oxide or Zinc Cromate primer at the time of insertion,
then I'd guess the issue was adequately covered.
Anyone have other or additional ideas or hints?
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / 2nd wing
The firewall is steel...either galvanized or stainless. But the "L"
braces and the channels are aluminum. Aren't those dissimilar metals?
What's the difference between aluminum rivets in stainless steel...and
stainless rivets in aluminum?
Dave
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Tachometer Problems |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
When posting I generally forget to put in the do not archive statement. I
can see how there are several posts that are either comments or observations
that are not important enough to archive and the no not archive statement
should be used. For the other 99% of the posts I think we can overlook the
DNA
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David X
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 1:23 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rotax 912 Tachometer Problems
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>
> I can't speak for others, but I use "DO NOT ARCHIVE" because
> of what happened to a late friend of mine who was killed in a
> Zodiac. The newspapers quoted all sorts of things out of
> context about him and thus maligning him, home-builds and
> experimentals in general. It seems that they got the info
> from an archive of this forum.
>
>
> 321PT wrote:
> > Am I missing something?? You guys have some good info on
> problems, so why would you put "Do not archive" on your
> messages?? Being an old fart, I am not going to be able to
> remember all this info on the top of my head.? Doesn't the
> DNA stop anyone from finding it later?
> > Or maybe I just don't understand all this new fangled stuff.
> > ?
>
>
> --------
> Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50474#50474
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
I've used this spreadsheet for my own calculations and I believe it to be correct,
but in no way do I warranty the spreadsheet. Check the math. Use at your own
risk.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50572#50572
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Hat Stiffener Press |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
From a slightly different point of view, this is also a great
example of the value of the home building experience we all are going
through. Along with the brilliant solution to the hat stiffener
problem, we all are figuring out solutions to new problems every
day. OK, the usual result is we reinvent the wheel rather than come
up with something really new, but that is not a bad experience either.
Now if we could only get off the mixed metal corrosion topic . . .
Paul
XL Fuselage
do not archive
>Thanks guys. I'm glad the press idea sparked a little
>head-scratchin'. That's the really cool thing about this list. One
>guy finds a way to get himself out of a pickle - shares it, and gets
>a dozen good ideas back in the process.
Message 12
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| Subject: | (CH701) problems measuring 7H3-3SP |
Has anyone had the following problem?
I'm starting my elevator/stab hinges and noticed a difference between the
builder's manual, the plans and the manufactured piece supplied by Zenith
concerning the Center Hinge Bracket ( 7H3-3SP ).
Using the plans I measured 50mm into the flange to make a mark to draw the
perpendicular line. This line was off center with the bracket tip by about
2mm. The builders manual states that the line should be centered with the
tip.
When tried to figure out why this was and I realized that the flange was
109mm in length, not 107mm as stated in the plans.
Since these measurments are enclosed by boxes on the plans, I assume they
are critical, especially since being off will cause problems with the
elevator's movement.
Is it better to use the tip center to determine the line knowing that one
side of the piece was manufactured 2mm to long, possibly grinding down that
side? ( my guess )
Or would it be better to use the line drawn 50mm in? ( seems like that would
weaken the hinge )
Thanks,
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <zman601xl@verizon.net>
I believe the accepted procedure is to prime the contacting surfaces, particularly
with dissimilar metals (which includes different alloys of the same basic
metal). If that is an accepted practice as is dipping rivets in Zinc Oxide or
Zinc Cromate primer at the time of insertion, then I'd guess the issue was adequately
covered. Anyone have other or additional ideas or hints? Ed Moody IIRayne,
LA601XL / 2nd wing The firewall is steel...either galvanized or stainless.
But the "L" braces and the channels are aluminum. Aren't those dissimilar
metals? What's the difference between aluminum rivets in stainless steel...and
stainless rivets in aluminum? Dave
Dave:
You have some good questions.I'm working on my firewall now.I've been wondering
about the rivets we use on the firewall.The firewall is fire resistant galvanized,but
the rivets securing the various braces are alum.Won't they melt if you
have a fire?Also,are the rivet heads on the firewall side?Zenith says(generally)that
the rivet head should go on the thinner side.A couple of the "l" angles
on the back are thinner than the firewall.Hopefully we will get guidance from
some of the guys that have already been down this road.
Bob Haring(Zman601xl)
Message 14
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All-
The garanger's done. Two weeks behind schedule, but done.
For anyone building in a basement, you have to pay the piper sooner
or later . It cost me as much as the kit and 4 month's work to build my
new shop. Cost without sweat equity, probably 25-30K in our area. God
knows what it would be on the West Coast. Building supply prices are
unreal!!
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Dave,
I used aluminum rivets in a stainless firewall with aluminum skin and
longerons because it's sound. The temps that would melt the rivets
would otherwise melt
the airframe as quickly. The surfaces were zinc chromated, but if I
were to put corroding parts together, I'd rather not see it on the
outside of my skins.
With a header tank, its likely the heat would be greater inside anyway,
eh? Strength wise, the aluminum rivets have done the job well for my
601. :-)
Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com
zman601xl@verizon.net wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: <zman601xl@verizon.net>
>
>
>I believe the accepted procedure is to prime the contacting surfaces, particularly
with dissimilar metals (which includes different alloys of the same basic
metal). If that is an accepted practice as is dipping rivets in Zinc Oxide or
Zinc Cromate primer at the time of insertion, then I'd guess the issue was adequately
covered. Anyone have other or additional ideas or hints? Ed Moody IIRayne,
LA601XL / 2nd wing The firewall is steel...either galvanized or stainless.
But the "L" braces and the channels are aluminum. Aren't those dissimilar
metals? What's the difference between aluminum rivets in stainless steel...and
stainless rivets in aluminum? Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith list
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 8:40 PM
Subject: Garanger
All-
The garanger's done. Two weeks behind schedule, but done.
For anyone building in a basement, you have to pay the piper
sooner or later . It cost me as much as the kit and 4 month's work to
build my new shop. Cost without sweat equity, probably 25-30K in our
area. God knows what it would be on the West Coast. Building supply
prices are unreal!!
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
do not archive
Message 17
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Simple shop or garage with some up-grades, over $100 per sq.ft.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Do Not Archive
All-
The garanger's done.
. It cost .probably 25-30K in our area. God knows what it would be on the
West Coast. .
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
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