Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:42 AM - Re: Special tool (Jean-Paul Roy)
2. 04:45 AM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Michel Therrien)
3. 05:22 AM - Re: Engine for 601XL (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
4. 05:37 AM - 701 wing root top skin (Zed Smith)
5. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Randy Bryant)
6. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Robert L. Stone)
7. 06:39 AM - Re: Jabiru 5100 (n801bh@netzero.com)
8. 07:14 AM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Randy Bryant)
9. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (No flame here...) (Tom Henderson)
10. 08:23 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (Gig Giacona)
11. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Randy L. Thwing)
12. 09:31 AM - Congratulations to us. (Paul Mulwitz)
13. 09:31 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (David X)
14. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Randy Bryant)
15. 10:24 AM - Re: Engine for 601XL (David X)
16. 10:27 AM - Re: Congratulations to us. (Randy Bryant)
17. 10:47 AM - Re: Congratulations to us. (John Marzulli)
18. 10:55 AM - Re: 701 wing root top skin (Geoff Heap)
19. 10:56 AM - (Robert L. Stone)
20. 11:20 AM - Re: Congrats (Zed Smith)
21. 11:58 AM - Re: Engine for 601XL (Phil Maxson)
22. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance ()
23. 12:06 PM - Axle Drill Guide (Gig Giacona)
24. 12:36 PM - Re: Axle Drill Guide (victor verdev)
25. 12:38 PM - Re: Axle Drill Guide (Randy Bryant)
26. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance (Daniel Vandenberg)
27. 01:00 PM - Re: Axle Drill Guide (Gig Giacona)
28. 01:31 PM - Re: Weight & Balance (David X)
29. 01:51 PM - Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods (Geoff Heap)
30. 02:02 PM - Oshkosh pictures??? (John Hines)
31. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Mike H)
32. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Tom Orsborn)
33. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Randy Bryant)
34. 02:35 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (LarryMcFarland)
35. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Gary Gower)
36. 03:05 PM - Re: Franklin Engines (Randy L. Thwing)
37. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Randy Bryant)
38. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance ()
39. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance (Paul Mulwitz)
40. 03:57 PM - Re: Engine for 601XL (David X)
41. 04:00 PM - More Oshkosh Press Release (Zodie Rocket)
42. 04:11 PM - Re: EAA Airventure Oshkosh 2006 (Or just plain Oshkosh to most of us) (Zodie Rocket)
43. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Franklin Engines (Paul Mulwitz)
44. 04:15 PM - Re: Weight & Balance (David X)
45. 04:59 PM - (Robert L. Stone)
46. 04:59 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Southern Reflections)
47. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Paul Mulwitz)
48. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance (Gary Boothe)
49. 05:15 PM - Matronics Email List Web Server Upgrade Tonight... (Matt Dralle)
50. 05:38 PM - Any Zenair CH2000 owners on the List? (TYA2)
51. 06:06 PM - Zenith Dinner DVD (Jon Croke)
52. 06:28 PM - Re: Garanger (Bill Naumuk)
53. 06:44 PM - Re: Engine for 601XL (Daniel Dempsey)
54. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Daniel Dempsey)
55. 07:27 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Jeff)
56. 07:46 PM - Re: Engine for 601XL (Paul Mulwitz)
57. 08:07 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance (Noel Loveys)
58. 08:14 PM - Re: Zenith Dinner DVD (Jon Croke)
59. 08:31 PM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Michel Therrien)
60. 09:05 PM - Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL (craig@craigandjean.com)
61. 09:54 PM - Re: Re: Weight & Balance (Tom and Bren Henderson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Special tool |
Robert, Averry tools has a punch that bear both sizes (3.125" and 2.25")
on the same tool for $140.00.
http://www.averytools.com/p-234-panel-master-instrument-hole-punch.aspx
Hope this helps
Jean-Paul
Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Stone
To: Zenith List
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 8:40 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Special tool
list members,
On the DVD "Building a glass panel" produced by "HomebuiltHELP" I
saw a tool that I am very much interested in The tool was one round flat
disk that worked like an anvil. The other disc's were round and
different sizes with a 90 degree flange that was very sharp. There was
a center hole where a large bolt would go in and a nut w/washer on the
other end. this would be placed in a sheet of aluminum with a pre
drilled hole the size of the bolt and when the nut and washer were
tightend it would make a perfact hole to mount an aircraft instrument.
This is by far the best system I have ever seen for making instrument
holes and I would like to get one. Do any of you have any idea who
stocks this tool.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
A friend and I recently purchased two Franklin engines
for our 601s. We expect to make the conversion over
the upcoming winter. This engine looks much more
robust and heavy than our installed Subarus, but the
final weight will be similar (due to getting rid of
the redrive, cooling system, ...)
You're right saying there is not a great deal of info.
More guys (probably here as well) use the 6 cylinder
engine which is essentially the same construction and
a lot could be learned from those people.
I read that the o-200 mount does not really fit the
engine, unless you don't install the alternator (there
is a conflict between the alternator and the mount).
For the o-200 cowling, not sure, but I will most
probably know that soon (I intend to buy the o-200
cowling). For the engine mount, I'll make one myself
and have it welded by a specialist.
Last week, I bought an Ivo Prop (Magnum model, in
flight adjustable), that I will install on my Subaru
installation and then, will be compatible with (or
better suited for) the Franklin after changing one
plate. I look forward to try this!
This being said, I'll certainly keep the list informed
as I go through the conversion and flight tests. I do
expect an increase in performance and a reduction in
maintenance effort.
Michel
--- TxDave <dclaytx2@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "TxDave"
> <dclaytx2@hotmail.com>
>
> I am curious about the Franklin engine, also. They
> offer an FAA certified 125HP engine that fits an
> O-200 mount for $6900. However, I have had
> difficulty finding any information on the internet
> from homebuilders who are flying with this engine.
>
> Dave Clay
> Temple, TX
> 601 scratch builder
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________________________
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Yes...I'm curious about the Franklin engine, too! Why haven't we heard much
about it? Sounds like a contender!
Dave
Message 4
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| Subject: | 701 wing root top skin |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
List,
What is the general consensus concerning cutting and fitting the Wing Root Top
Skin on the 701?
I'm down to that point......got several sheets of poster paper, which is the same
thickness as the .016 skin aluminum, and am about to start cutting the paper
for fit. This approach worked well on the wing tips and some other areas; sure
saved my rear in that I messed up the paper, not the aluminum, in getting
a good fit.
Just wondered if any of you guys found any problem areas that are not addressed
in the Assembly Manual or on the Drawings. Specifically, does the layout for
the root top skin on page 7V9 fit as drawn, or is there a fudge factor required?
Now if the temperature would just get below 100 I might be able to survive working
in the hangar.
Thanks,
Zed/701/R912/do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated conversation
between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago. He stated to me then
that the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines, meaning when they
need to be rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy another... He said
they didn't even make an overhaul kit for it... Whether or not this is
true, I'm not 100% sure... If you are planning to buy a Franklin, this
might be something to check out first..
Thanks,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
----- Original Message -----
From: VideoFlyer@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:20 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
Yes...I'm curious about the Franklin engine, too! Why haven't we
heard much about it? Sounds like a contender!
Dave
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
I know I will get flamed on this one but it's my opinion and one of the
most sucessful kit manufactures in the country (RV) is of the same
opinion and that is Automobile engines belong in cars and aircraft
engines are the only ones that should be in aircraft. So Mr Randy
Bryant, you made a good choice.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Bryant
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I've been debating this same issue for a while now myself. Ever since
I first decided to build the XL, I've planned on using a Corvair
conversion, bought the manual...etc. Even after "deciding" on the
Corvair, I still have researched other engine options, including other
auto conversions. I finally made up my mind, and have decided to go
with the Lycoming O-235, and have purchased one. Not a slam on other
engines, this was just my choice. I'm sure Jab, Rotax..etc. owners are
happy with their choice, and I've made mine as well, deciding to go with
the O-235.
Thoughts that went into my decision were not totally based on
finances, although that did play a part. There were other elements such
as reliability, proven track record, available mechanics for the
brand/type, parts availabilty...etc.
Just my .02,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: T. Graziano
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I've been flying the Jabiru 3300 in my 601XL for the past year. FWF
good quality. Just finished my first annual condition insp and have 120
flight hrs. Great engine, good gas mileage, easily uses mogas or 100LL;
Jab sounds like - -- - an airplane engine. Would do it again with the
Jab. Jabiru USA is really good to work with.
Tony Graziano N493TG
Engine for 601XL
From: allpro2@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun Jul 30 - 4:21 PM
I realize this is probably old hat to most of you, but I am thinking
about the 601 XL. If you were going to jump in today, which engine
would you choose?
The Corvair certainly is attractive price wise. The Jabiru 3300 seems
to be catching on and the Jabiru factory certainly does have a complete
firewall forward package. The Rotax 912s is probably the most
expensive.
Actual payload in the real world, is there that much difference? Maybe
20 pounds at most??
Thank you for your comments.
Bill in central Florida
Message 7
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Dave wrote" Ben, Good point. That's why I asked the question.How is the
V8 in your plane holding up? I contacted you awhile back about it, but
didn't pursue it much further. Are you selling installation kits or fire
wall forward with your engines
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////
My motor has run perfectly for all the 140 hours I have on my plane. Th
e "issues" have been with the BeltedAir redrive I chose to use. Jess@ Be
ltedair told me his engineer, Bill, was sure it would transmit the power
my engine could develop. He accepted my check and cashed it. The darn t
hing has failed four times. Each time I address the failure and modify i
t to make it bulletproof in the area it fails. Bearings were upgraded, e
nd plates were increased in thickness, Lower bearing size has been incr
eased and additional press fit has been included on the stubshaft. I ev
en changed the manufacturer of the belt going from the Carlilse to the G
ates. That in itself helped a bunch. Now that I have replaced just about
everything in the unit I am pretty comfortable with its durability. Unf
ortunatly this last failure happened just days before the departure date
for my to go to Oshkosh. In my amazement Beltedair's market is the exp
erimentals and he didn't have a booth there , in fact I coulnd't even fi
nd a plane there using his redrive, strange in itself. He claims he has
sold hundreds of those things and statistics should dictate at least one
should have been there. Hmmm.I make it a personal policy to achieve 20
hours of quirk frre flying before leaving my airport area and I cuold no
t accompolish that before Osh. it now has those hours on it and in hinds
ite the trip to Osh would have been safe. The heat between here and ther
e would have made the trip unbearable so I am glad I drove this year. FW
IW, The beltedair redrive would probably be ok for 130 HP V-6 Chevies th
ough. I also want to make it clear my engine is definatly tooooo powerfu
l for a Zenith 801. The plane can handle the power and weight, it's the
low speed response from the flaperons at full flaps that will bite you,
plane is great from 38 mph indicated on. Below that airspeed it will tor
que roll into the runway on takeoff. Needless to say I WON'T do that aga
in..................... On side note a few of my observations from my v
isit to OSH. The 0-360,0-390,0-400 Lyc clones look like the way to go fo
r the 801 altho the prices are getting up there. I did speak to the new
owners of the Franklin engine company, two things , first they barely sp
oke english, second, the deliverly date for a new 220 HP motor was about
a year away. Current asking price for one was 18,400 from one rep,17,90
0 from the other, the third rep couldn't speak a word of english but wou
ld stand there and grin... I hate that when it happens. <G>
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
Ben, Good point. That's why I asked the question.How is the V8 in your p
lane holding up? I contacted you awhile back about it, but didn't pursue
it much further. Are you selling installation kits or firewall forward
with your engines? ----- Original Message ----- From: n801bh@netzero.co
m To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 8:33 PMSubje
ct: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru 5100
As a machinist I was/am very impressed with the engine. A few years back
the price was inline with experimental do it yourself costs. They now a
re getting quite expensive. The big drawback of the 8 cyl for a stol pla
ne is that stols need a large diameter prop and the 5100 makes 180 HP at
3300 rpm. It is a good engine for an RV needing a 68 -72" dia prop. At
2700 rpm the thing makes something like 135 HP. An 801 needs way more th
en that.....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
Does anyone have any personal experience with the Jabiru 180 horse engi
ne? I've looked at the website, but am wondering what they are really li
ke. Looks like they are similar in cost to an XP360. Dave in Salem801
<html><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD>Dave wrote" </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width=7> </TD>
<TD>
<P align=justify>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=GENERATOR>
<TABLE>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ben,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good point. That's why I asked the ques
tion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How is the V8 in your plane holding up?
I contacted you awhile back about it, but didn't pursue it much further
. Are you selling installation kits or firewall forward with your engine
s</FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
///////////</P>
<P>My motor has run perfectly for all the 140 hours I have on my p
lane. The "issues" have been with the BeltedAir redrive I chose to use.
Jess@ Beltedair told me his engineer, Bill, was sure it would transmit t
he power my engine could develop. He accepted my check and cashed it. Th
e darn thing has failed four times. Each time I address the failure and
modify it to make it bulletproof in the area it fails. Bearings were upg
raded, end plates were increased in thickness, Lower bearing size
has been increased and additional press fit has been included on th
e stubshaft. I even changed the manufacturer of the belt going fro
m the Carlilse to the Gates. That in itself helped a bunch. Now that I h
ave replaced just about everything in the unit I am pretty comfortable w
ith its durability. Unfortunatly this last failure happened just da
ys before the departure date for my to go to Oshkosh. In my amazem
ent Beltedair's market is the experimentals and he didn't have a booth t
here , in fact I coulnd't even find a plane there using his redrive, str
ange in itself. He claims he has sold hundreds of those things and stati
stics should dictate at least one should have been there. Hmmm.I&nb
sp;make it a personal policy to achieve 20 hours of quirk frre flying be
fore leaving my airport area and I cuold not accompolish that before Osh
. it now has those hours on it and in hindsite the trip to Osh would hav
e been safe. The heat between here and there would have made the trip un
bearable so I am glad I drove this year. FWIW, The beltedair redriv
e would probably be ok for 130 HP V-6 Chevies though. I also want to mak
e it clear my engine is definatly tooooo powerful for a Zenith 801. The
plane can handle the power and weight, it's the low speed response from
the flaperons at full flaps that will bite you, plane is great from 38 m
ph indicated on. Below that airspeed it will torque roll into the runway
on takeoff. Needless to say I WON'T do that again.................
.... On side note a few of my observations from my visit to OSH. T
he 0-360,0-390,0-400 Lyc clones look like the way to go for the 801
altho the prices are getting up there. I did speak to the new owners of
the Franklin engine company, two things , first they barely spoke engli
sh, second, the deliverly date for a new 220 HP motor was about a year a
way. Current asking price for one was 18,400 from one rep,17,900 from th
e other, the third rep couldn't speak a word of english but would stand
there and grin... I hate that when it happens. <G></P>
<P>do not archive <BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspo
werair.com<BR><BR>-- "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@
comcast.net> wrote:<BR></P>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ben,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good point. That's why I asked the ques
tion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How is the V8 in your plane holding up?
I contacted you awhile back about it, but didn't pursue it much further
. Are you selling installation kits or firewall forward with your engine
s?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MA
RGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">
<B>From:</B> <A title=n801bh@netzero.com href="mailto:n801bh@netzero
.com">n801bh@netzero.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=zenith-list@matron
ics.com href="mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com">zenith-list@matronics.
com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 30, 2006 8:33
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru
5100</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>As a machinist I was/am very impressed with the engine. A few years b
ack the price was inline with experimental do it yourself costs. They no
w are getting quite expensive. The big drawback of the 8 cyl for a stol
plane is that stols need a large diameter prop and the 5100 makes 180 HP
at 3300 rpm. It is a good engine for an RV needing a 68 -72" dia prop.
At 2700 rpm the thing makes something like 135 HP. An 801 needs way more
then that.....</P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcas
t.net> wrote:<BR></P>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Does anyone have any personal experienc
e with the Jabiru 180 horse engine? I've looked at the website, but am w
ondering what they are really like. Looks like they are similar in cost
to an XP360.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave in Salem</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>801</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></html>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Yeah, I agree, I didn't/don't want to start another flame war though...
There were many different thoughts went into my decision, not just the
fact I didn't want to use an automobile engine. A lot of it came down
to value, what I'm getting for my money... I've heard stories of
Corvairs getting built in the $2K range, but I've got a feeling, that
I'd be spending in the $3500 range to build it like I wanted it, and
maybe more, since I was planning on having a custom billet crankshaft
made for it... In the back of my mind, I'd always be concerned about
the Corvair crankshaft, nitrided or not.
With all of that said, I'll go farther and open myself up to flames I'm
sure:
The engine I bought is ready for overhaul. Everything is there:
complete engine, carb, starter, mags, baffling, oil cooler...etc. I
have a few friends that are A&P mechanics. I have a few friends that
are good machinists... We've all talked and by pooling our resources,
we think we can have a fresh O-235 for about $4K...including the cost of
the core. Now here's the kicker and what I'll probably get flamed for:
It won't be "certified" when we are done. I believe you can have a
good, solid crank/case combination, this is what's importants to me,
without the word "certified"... This word really don't matter a great
deal to me in this application... NOW, if I were installing it on a
certified airframe, that would be a different story, but for an
experimental airframe, I don't value that so much...
Thanks,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I know I will get flamed on this one but it's my opinion and one of
the most sucessful kit manufactures in the country (RV) is of the same
opinion and that is Automobile engines belong in cars and aircraft
engines are the only ones that should be in aircraft. So Mr Randy
Bryant, you made a good choice.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Bryant
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I've been debating this same issue for a while now myself. Ever
since I first decided to build the XL, I've planned on using a Corvair
conversion, bought the manual...etc. Even after "deciding" on the
Corvair, I still have researched other engine options, including other
auto conversions. I finally made up my mind, and have decided to go
with the Lycoming O-235, and have purchased one. Not a slam on other
engines, this was just my choice. I'm sure Jab, Rotax..etc. owners are
happy with their choice, and I've made mine as well, deciding to go with
the O-235.
Thoughts that went into my decision were not totally based on
finances, although that did play a part. There were other elements such
as reliability, proven track record, available mechanics for the
brand/type, parts availabilty...etc.
Just my .02,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: T. Graziano
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I've been flying the Jabiru 3300 in my 601XL for the past year.
FWF good quality. Just finished my first annual condition insp and have
120 flight hrs. Great engine, good gas mileage, easily uses mogas or
100LL; Jab sounds like - -- - an airplane engine. Would do it again
with the Jab. Jabiru USA is really good to work with.
Tony Graziano N493TG
Engine for 601XL
From: allpro2@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun Jul 30 - 4:21 PM
I realize this is probably old hat to most of you, but I am thinking
about the 601 XL. If you were going to jump in today, which engine
would you choose?
The Corvair certainly is attractive price wise. The Jabiru 3300 seems
to be catching on and the Jabiru factory certainly does have a complete
firewall forward package. The Rotax 912s is probably the most
expensive.
Actual payload in the real world, is there that much difference? Maybe
20 pounds at most??
Thank you for your comments.
Bill in central Florida
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL (No flame here...) |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
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resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
Any way you could add a spot for weight in the wing lockers?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51025#51025
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Can't say I agree with your A&P, there are plenty of sixty year old
Franklins still flying in Stinsons, Seabees & Bellancas, newer ones
flying in Maules since the early seventies. The biggest question is
whether they are still in business. This is all hearsay: PZL in Poland
who made Franklins was supposedly bought by P & W. They didn't intend
to continue the piston engine line. Has it been sold? Have they
continued? I don't know. I have a PZL 125 4 cyl on the shelf here at
the plant. We bought it to re-engine our '59 C150. Everyone who has
NEVER spoken to the FAA at our airport has told us that "field
approvals" are "impossible" to get, so that project is on the back
burner until we get some more time. I have attached some pics of the
engine since most have never seen one. This one has a earlier version
sump. I have a bit of info regarding these engines and would try to
answer questions, but please ask one question at a time, I'm at work and
can't write a histoy. Regarding their design they have many interesting
features including a fluid vibration damper built into the flywheel
within the accessory case.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated conversation
between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago. He stated to me then
that the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines, meaning when they
need to be rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy another... He said
they didn't even make an overhaul kit for it... Whether or not this is
true, I'm not 100% sure... If you are planning to buy a Franklin, this
might be something to check out first..
Thanks,
Randy
Message 12
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| Subject: | Congratulations to us. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
I am delighted to notice that we have been discussing engine choices
for Zodiacs for a whole day now and not a single stone has been thrown.
Could it be that this has become a list where adults can actually
discuss engine choices?
Paul
XL Fuselage
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
Attached is an updated version allowing for wing lockers in any given scenario.
I never included it prior because the arm is very close too but less than pilot/co-pilot;
thus making it much less critical when trying to measure overall
affect of people, fuel and baggage. It is interesting nonetheless to observe scenarios
in which lockers are used as apposed to rear baggage.
BTW: One of the surprising impacts on total useful load and CG in particular is
paint! Between 2 and 3 gallons of primer and paint is needed (depending on number
of coats) at approximately 12 lbs per gallon. You could easily have 30 lbs
of paint and primer on the aircraft with as much as 6 lbs of it on the rudder,
horizontal stabilizer and tail section where the CG impact is most extreme.
The net affect is to move the CG rearward approximately 1 inch; which is a lot
when you consider the entire CG range (between 20% and 30%) of MAC spans only
6 inches.
I in no way do I warranty the spreadsheet. Check the math. Use at your own risk.
Gig Giacona wrote:
> Any way you could add a spot for weight in the wing lockers?
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51047#51047
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/wb_601xl_829.xls
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
I'm not saying that I agree with him either, that's just what he said..
On Franklin's site, they say they have "field replaceable" cylinder
sleeves... You'd think with that, they'd also have other parts...
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy L. Thwing
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
Can't say I agree with your A&P, there are plenty of sixty year old
Franklins still flying in Stinsons, Seabees & Bellancas, newer ones
flying in Maules since the early seventies. The biggest question is
whether they are still in business. This is all hearsay: PZL in Poland
who made Franklins was supposedly bought by P & W. They didn't intend
to continue the piston engine line. Has it been sold? Have they
continued? I don't know. I have a PZL 125 4 cyl on the shelf here at
the plant. We bought it to re-engine our '59 C150. Everyone who has
NEVER spoken to the FAA at our airport has told us that "field
approvals" are "impossible" to get, so that project is on the back
burner until we get some more time. I have attached some pics of the
engine since most have never seen one. This one has a earlier version
sump. I have a bit of info regarding these engines and would try to
answer questions, but please ask one question at a time, I'm at work and
can't write a histoy. Regarding their design they have many interesting
features including a fluid vibration damper built into the flywheel
within the accessory case.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated
conversation between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago. He
stated to me then that the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines,
meaning when they need to be rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy
another... He said they didn't even make an overhaul kit for it...
Whether or not this is true, I'm not 100% sure... If you are planning
to buy a Franklin, this might be something to check out first..
Thanks,
Randy
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
I cringe every time I hear of an in-flight failure of an auto conversion. If you
plan to use an auto conversion, I'd stick to reputable VW, Subaru or Mazda engine
converters with a good track record in aviation. The guy a hanger down from
me is putting a supersharged RAM Subaru in his Glasair. Nice looking engine
with a nice layout.
I have a Rotax 912ULS and love it for the power/weight ratio and reliability. It's
not a surprise that some many new SLSA use the Rotax 912/912S.
Having said that, I sometimes yern for a real experimental like the rotary engine
(Wankel) ... because of the extreemely good power to weight ratio, the much
reduced vibrations and the ability to boost intake pressure far beyond a typical
piston engine (no overhead valve leak). The closest Wankel match for the 601
or 701 would probably be Rotamax.
Downside to the 912S, Subaru and Wankel is need for water cooling. It's just one
more factor to deal with ... but minor in my opinion.
If you wanted to go totally radical (but pricey): http://www.innodyn.com/aviation/action.html
There's also a list of experimental engines here: http://www.aviator.cc/engines.html
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51076#51076
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Congratulations to us. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@n344rb.com>
Yeah, I think we have the engine thing down to a science now... BUT there's
no way under the sun that I'm gonna mention Scotch-Brite or putting
dis-similar metals on a firewall! LOL! OR bolt torque specs! :-)
Cheers,
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:27 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> I am delighted to notice that we have been discussing engine choices for
> Zodiacs for a whole day now and not a single stone has been thrown.
>
> Could it be that this has become a list where adults can actually discuss
> engine choices?
>
> Paul
> XL Fuselage
> do not archive
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Congratulations to us. |
<SARCASM>
What if I were to attach a 2MB photo of myself using scotchbrite (maybe
purple) on an engine? That would neeever cause any problems.
</SARCASM>
;-)
-John in Seattle.
On 7/31/06, Randy Bryant <randy@n344rb.com> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@n344rb.com>
>
> Yeah, I think we have the engine thing down to a science now... BUT
> there's
> no way under the sun that I'm gonna mention Scotch-Brite or putting
> dis-similar metals on a firewall! LOL! OR bolt torque specs! :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Randy
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:27 PM
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
> > <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> >
> > I am delighted to notice that we have been discussing engine choices for
> > Zodiacs for a whole day now and not a single stone has been thrown.
> >
> > Could it be that this has become a list where adults can actually
> discuss
> > engine choices?
> >
> > Paul
> > XL Fuselage
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> > http://wiki.matronics.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 701 wing root top skin |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
Z. I finished them a few years ago but I remember clearly making them as you describe
with paper templates first. As I recall my final parts did not match the
DWG. There can be tremenous variation depending on how you orient the part.
You need to mark some reference points on the paper part and the wing top skin
so that as you make small adjustment cuts, you can reposition it back on the
aircraft the same each time. If you don't, you'll go nuts. Not much science to
this part.....Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51100#51100
Message 19
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Members,
I don't expect everyone to agree with everything I have to say
since in most cases it's just an opinion. I do expect people who
disagree to be polite about it. Like: I disagree with you for the
following reasons. (Nice way) or you are nuts, full of crap, or an
idiot, (Not so nice way) That's one of the reasons I got off of the
KRNet. I have built both the KR-l and the KR-2 way back in the 70's
never the less when I said something about constructing that bird, I
very often heard the aformentioned not so nice remarks.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Some years ago a friend(?) sent me two photos.
One was a beautiful blue sky, a few clouds, nothing more; (6 meg JPEG file), said
it was the "Goodrich Blimp"
The other one was blank and was labeled "Next Microsoft OS". Also 6 meg file.
I've kept both for "an occasion". I'll not bore the list with either, but there
is a rumor that Mary Kay Cosmetics is introducing a pink ScotchBright for those
with severe skin problems. Chapped rear, maybe?
Regards to all,
Zed/701/R912/do not archive/thanks for the wing root top skin install tips
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Just for the record, two other reasons I chose the Corvair conversion:
1. The education of building the engine myself was invaluable. I learned
more from that experience than any other part of the project. If you want a
plans-built experience, this is the way to go.
2. The cool factor is large. You wouldn't believe the number of people who
are interested when you tell them the engine is converted from a '65
Corvair, and that you built it yourself. They may even write major
newspaper articles about you if you build it (with large color photo).
3. <bonus reason> The Corvair engine community is like a family.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Are you considering the residual weight of paint on the airplane to be similar
to the wet paint weight in the can? If so, I think you are over-estimating the
dry weight of the paint. Does anyone have a reliable figure on the dry weight
of a gallon of paint on the airplane? Also, are you sure about the 12 pounds
per gallon weight of the wet paint? Water is only 8 pounds per gallon and a specific
gravity of 1.5 for wet paint sounds high to me.
Ed Moody II
---- David X <dxj@comcast.net> wrote:
lockers are used as apposed to rear baggage.
>
> BTW: One of the surprising impacts on total useful load and CG in particular
is paint! Between 2 and 3 gallons of primer and paint is needed (depending on
number of coats) at approximately 12 lbs per gallon. You could easily have 30
lbs of paint and primer on the aircraft with as much as 6 lbs of it on the rudder,
horizontal stabilizer and tail section where the CG impact is most extreme.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Axle Drill Guide |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
I have the axle drill guide for GAC Models 5013, 5015 & 5018. It made fitting the
axle to the gear a breeze.
I'm finished with it now and would be willing to pass it own to someone nearing
that point in the building process at no cost. The only thing I ask is that after
you use it you do the same here on the list.
First post with address and that promise gets it. Should you decide to keep it
for some reason please make an extra donation to the list.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51131#51131
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Axle Drill Guide |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
I,m at that exact step and would appreciate using it.
I would pass it on at no cost to next builder.
Vic Verdev 5646 Rush Road, Conover, WI. 54519
Thanks Vic
--- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@cox.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona"
> <wr.giacona@cox.net>
>
> I have the axle drill guide for GAC Models 5013,
> 5015 & 5018. It made fitting the axle to the gear a
> breeze.
>
> I'm finished with it now and would be willing to
> pass it own to someone nearing that point in the
> building process at no cost. The only thing I ask is
> that after you use it you do the same here on the
> list.
>
> First post with address and that promise gets it.
> Should you decide to keep it for some reason please
> make an extra donation to the list.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51131#51131
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Axle Drill Guide |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@n344rb.com>
I'm not ready to drill my gear yet, but it will be soon...
I'd like to borrow it...
Please contact me off-list for my shipping address.
Thanks,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 3:06 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
>
> I have the axle drill guide for GAC Models 5013, 5015 & 5018. It made
> fitting the axle to the gear a breeze.
>
> I'm finished with it now and would be willing to pass it own to someone
> nearing that point in the building process at no cost. The only thing I
> ask is that after you use it you do the same here on the list.
>
> First post with address and that promise gets it. Should you decide to
> keep it for some reason please make an extra donation to the list.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51131#51131
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
Obviously, when primer or paint dries the moisture is mostly gone...and the dried
primer/paint left behind must weigh much less than it did in the can.
Does anybody know what percentage of weight is left in paint/primer after it
dries?
DJV
David X <dxj@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X"
Attached is an updated version allowing for wing lockers in any given scenario.
I never included it prior because the arm is very close too but less than pilot/co-pilot;
thus making it much less critical when trying to measure overall
affect of people, fuel and baggage. It is interesting nonetheless to observe scenarios
in which lockers are used as apposed to rear baggage.
BTW: One of the surprising impacts on total useful load and CG in particular is
paint! Between 2 and 3 gallons of primer and paint is needed (depending on number
of coats) at approximately 12 lbs per gallon. You could easily have 30 lbs
of paint and primer on the aircraft with as much as 6 lbs of it on the rudder,
horizontal stabilizer and tail section where the CG impact is most extreme.
The net affect is to move the CG rearward approximately 1 inch; which is a lot
when you consider the entire CG range (between 20% and 30%) of MAC spans only
6 inches.
I in no way do I warranty the spreadsheet. Check the math. Use at your own risk.
Gig Giacona wrote:
> Any way you could add a spot for weight in the wing lockers?
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51047#51047
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/wb_601xl_829.xls
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Axle Drill Guide |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
Vic, you were first it'll be in the mail to you before the week is out.
Randy, contact Vic when you need it he will either still have it or know who it
went to.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51156#51156
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
You brought up a good point about dry paint weighing less than wet paint ... a
point I didn't think about. I did a little research ...
A urethane primer weighs about 12 lbs per gallon wet and contains about 80% solids
(pigments, binders etc) ... so approximately 20% of the primer weight is lost
in drying. Dry primer would therefore weigh about 9.5 lbs/gallon.
A polyurethane top coat would weigh about 10 lbs per gallon wet and contain about
65% solids. Dry weight would therefore be about 6.5 lbs per gallon for the
top coat.
A clear coat would be about 8 lbs/gallon with 60% solids, leaving about 5 lbs/gallon
dry weight.
Assuming that the aircraft has approximately 350 sq feet of surface, and that there
would be about 6 coats of paint (two coats primer, two top coats and two
clear coats) and assuming that you would be using about 1 gallon per 775 sq feet
... then you would be using a little under 1 gallon of each type of paint (nearly
3 gallons total).
All in all, you'd be adding 21 lbs of dry paint weight as opposed to the 30 lbs
of wet paint quoted previously. That's 4.5 pounds of dry paint on the tail (as
apposed to the 6 lbs quoted before). The total CG affect would be .8 inches
rearward instead of the 1 inch quoted before. Not as significant as previously
estimated, but still pretty significant on a light plane such as the 601XL.
For reference: http://www.performancecoatings.dupont.com/dpc/en/us/html/prodinfo/aviation/techavi.html
Daniel Vandenberg wrote:
> Obviously, when primer or paint dries the moisture is mostly gone...and the dried
primer/paint left behind must weigh much less than it did in the can.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51162#51162
Message 29
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| Subject: | Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
I'm looking for Ben Haas formerly at Benford2@aol.com or anyone who has fitted
Yamaha part # 8CR2195e to their steering rods.
I have a question regarding the dimensions of the assy. They may or may not fit
a 701. His photo in the archive looks like it may be a 601. Thanks....Geoff
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51170#51170
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| Subject: | Oshkosh pictures??? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" <John.Hines@craftontull.com>
Guys,
For those of you who went to Oshkosh, the rest of us are impatiently
waiting for pictures. Please share!!
John Hines
www.johnsplane.com
Do not archive
John R. Hines
IT Manager
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.
901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200
Rogers, AR 72756
Office: 479-878-2449
Mobile: 479-366-4783
Fax: 479-631-6224
John.Hines@craftontull.com
www.craftontull.com
Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs
of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message
contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named.
If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute
or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have
received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If
you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information
is strictly prohibited.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
I thought about doing the same thing, but what happens when you try and
sell it?? This may have an impact on re-sell value.
mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Bryant
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
Yeah, I agree, I didn't/don't want to start another flame war
though...
There were many different thoughts went into my decision, not just the
fact I didn't want to use an automobile engine. A lot of it came down
to value, what I'm getting for my money... I've heard stories of
Corvairs getting built in the $2K range, but I've got a feeling, that
I'd be spending in the $3500 range to build it like I wanted it, and
maybe more, since I was planning on having a custom billet crankshaft
made for it... In the back of my mind, I'd always be concerned about
the Corvair crankshaft, nitrided or not.
With all of that said, I'll go farther and open myself up to flames
I'm sure:
The engine I bought is ready for overhaul. Everything is there:
complete engine, carb, starter, mags, baffling, oil cooler...etc. I
have a few friends that are A&P mechanics. I have a few friends that
are good machinists... We've all talked and by pooling our resources,
we think we can have a fresh O-235 for about $4K...including the cost of
the core. Now here's the kicker and what I'll probably get flamed for:
It won't be "certified" when we are done. I believe you can have a
good, solid crank/case combination, this is what's importants to me,
without the word "certified"... This word really don't matter a great
deal to me in this application... NOW, if I were installing it on a
certified airframe, that would be a different story, but for an
experimental airframe, I don't value that so much...
Thanks,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I know I will get flamed on this one but it's my opinion and one of
the most sucessful kit manufactures in the country (RV) is of the same
opinion and that is Automobile engines belong in cars and aircraft
engines are the only ones that should be in aircraft. So Mr Randy
Bryant, you made a good choice.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Bryant
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I've been debating this same issue for a while now myself. Ever
since I first decided to build the XL, I've planned on using a Corvair
conversion, bought the manual...etc. Even after "deciding" on the
Corvair, I still have researched other engine options, including other
auto conversions. I finally made up my mind, and have decided to go
with the Lycoming O-235, and have purchased one. Not a slam on other
engines, this was just my choice. I'm sure Jab, Rotax..etc. owners are
happy with their choice, and I've made mine as well, deciding to go with
the O-235.
Thoughts that went into my decision were not totally based on
finances, although that did play a part. There were other elements such
as reliability, proven track record, available mechanics for the
brand/type, parts availabilty...etc.
Just my .02,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: T. Graziano
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I've been flying the Jabiru 3300 in my 601XL for the past year.
FWF good quality. Just finished my first annual condition insp and have
120 flight hrs. Great engine, good gas mileage, easily uses mogas or
100LL; Jab sounds like - -- - an airplane engine. Would do it again
with the Jab. Jabiru USA is really good to work with.
Tony Graziano N493TG
Engine for 601XL
From: allpro2@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun Jul 30 - 4:21 PM
I realize this is probably old hat to most of you, but I am thinking
about the 601 XL. If you were going to jump in today, which engine
would you choose?
The Corvair certainly is attractive price wise. The Jabiru 3300 seems
to be catching on and the Jabiru factory certainly does have a complete
firewall forward package. The Rotax 912s is probably the most
expensive.
Actual payload in the real world, is there that much difference? Maybe
20 pounds at most??
Thank you for your comments.
Bill in central Florida
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Franklin was showing (or some company was showing their engines) at Oshkosh
this week. I didn't check them out closely, but I noticed a half dozen six
cylinder engines in their booth when I walked by. I didn't see any fours
though the PZL distributor has had them in previous years. They have a web
site, http://www.franklinengines.com/. The six cylinder engine is discussed
on the Zenith 801 site as an option. They also had a forum which had a
subtitle along the lines of "Franklin is back".
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy L. Thwing
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:33 AM
Can't say I agree with your A&P, there are plenty of sixty year old
Franklins still flying in Stinsons, Seabees & Bellancas, newer ones flying
in Maules since the early seventies. The biggest question is whether they
are still in business. This is all hearsay: PZL in Poland who made
Franklins was supposedly bought by P & W. They didn't intend to continue
the piston engine line. Has it been sold? Have they continued? I don't
know. I have a PZL 125 4 cyl on the shelf here at the plant. We bought it
to re-engine our '59 C150. Everyone who has NEVER spoken to the FAA at our
airport has told us that "field approvals" are "impossible" to get, so that
project is on the back burner until we get some more time. I have attached
some pics of the engine since most have never seen one. This one has a
earlier version sump. I have a bit of info regarding these engines and
would try to answer questions, but please ask one question at a time, I'm at
work and can't write a histoy. Regarding their design they have many
interesting features including a fluid vibration damper built into the
flywheel within the accessory case.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated conversation
between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago. He stated to me then that
the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines, meaning when they need to be
rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy another... He said they didn't even
make an overhaul kit for it... Whether or not this is true, I'm not 100%
sure... If you are planning to buy a Franklin, this might be something to
check out first..
Thanks,
Randy
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Yes, it will have an effect on resale value, as fresh uncertified
engines won't bring as much money as fresh certifed engines... It would
be the same thing when you start to sell the "homebuilt", "uncertified"
airframe it's attached to... You sell exactly what it is. What you
have... nothing more, nothing less...
There was a guy who had an O-235 who had built it the same way I'm
planning and made it uncertified... He wanted to sell it... I was
going to buy it, but another guy beat me out by one day... I was one of
4 people who were in-line to buy this engine too.. SO there are buyers
out there...
I'll also bet that it would be easier to sell a fresh, good running,
uncertified O-235, than it would to sell any auto conversion in the same
shape...
Thanks,
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike H
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I thought about doing the same thing, but what happens when you try
and sell it?? This may have an impact on re-sell value.
mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Bryant
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
Yeah, I agree, I didn't/don't want to start another flame war
though...
There were many different thoughts went into my decision, not just
the fact I didn't want to use an automobile engine. A lot of it came
down to value, what I'm getting for my money... I've heard stories of
Corvairs getting built in the $2K range, but I've got a feeling, that
I'd be spending in the $3500 range to build it like I wanted it, and
maybe more, since I was planning on having a custom billet crankshaft
made for it... In the back of my mind, I'd always be concerned about
the Corvair crankshaft, nitrided or not.
With all of that said, I'll go farther and open myself up to flames
I'm sure:
The engine I bought is ready for overhaul. Everything is there:
complete engine, carb, starter, mags, baffling, oil cooler...etc. I
have a few friends that are A&P mechanics. I have a few friends that
are good machinists... We've all talked and by pooling our resources,
we think we can have a fresh O-235 for about $4K...including the cost of
the core. Now here's the kicker and what I'll probably get flamed for:
It won't be "certified" when we are done. I believe you can have a
good, solid crank/case combination, this is what's importants to me,
without the word "certified"... This word really don't matter a great
deal to me in this application... NOW, if I were installing it on a
certified airframe, that would be a different story, but for an
experimental airframe, I don't value that so much...
Thanks,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I know I will get flamed on this one but it's my opinion and one
of the most sucessful kit manufactures in the country (RV) is of the
same opinion and that is Automobile engines belong in cars and aircraft
engines are the only ones that should be in aircraft. So Mr Randy
Bryant, you made a good choice.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Bryant
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I've been debating this same issue for a while now myself. Ever
since I first decided to build the XL, I've planned on using a Corvair
conversion, bought the manual...etc. Even after "deciding" on the
Corvair, I still have researched other engine options, including other
auto conversions. I finally made up my mind, and have decided to go
with the Lycoming O-235, and have purchased one. Not a slam on other
engines, this was just my choice. I'm sure Jab, Rotax..etc. owners are
happy with their choice, and I've made mine as well, deciding to go with
the O-235.
Thoughts that went into my decision were not totally based on
finances, although that did play a part. There were other elements such
as reliability, proven track record, available mechanics for the
brand/type, parts availabilty...etc.
Just my .02,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: T. Graziano
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
I've been flying the Jabiru 3300 in my 601XL for the past
year. FWF good quality. Just finished my first annual condition insp
and have 120 flight hrs. Great engine, good gas mileage, easily uses
mogas or 100LL; Jab sounds like - -- - an airplane engine. Would do it
again with the Jab. Jabiru USA is really good to work with.
Tony Graziano N493TG
Engine for 601XL
From: allpro2@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun Jul 30 - 4:21 PM
I realize this is probably old hat to most of you, but I am thinking
about the 601 XL. If you were going to jump in today, which engine
would you choose?
The Corvair certainly is attractive price wise. The Jabiru 3300 seems
to be catching on and the Jabiru factory certainly does have a complete
firewall forward package. The Rotax 912s is probably the most
expensive.
Actual payload in the real world, is there that much difference? Maybe
20 pounds at most??
Thank you for your comments.
Bill in central Florida
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
David,
I dont see an in flight failure of an auto conversion to be worse than
any other engine. The challenge of getting an auto conversion right in
the first place is more difficult, but the auto conversion guys are
doing us a favor and should be encouraged. Automotive conversions are
one reason aircraft engines dont cost more than they do. They have
competition. Every auto conversion that is successful provides incentive
for the conventional aircraft engine suppliers to compete, if
indirectly, against lower prices.
I wouldnt drive an air-cooled car and dont find nostalgia for the old
air-cooled motorcycle. These are the same reasons that I like the muted
sound of a water-cooled conversion. I know youre going to see a lot
more of them in the future because of fuel issues.
I do like the Corvair and the Jabaru. They are the Cadillac of whats
out there right now, but the Subaru is still a great value if you want
to work through the basics.
Respectfully,
Larry McFarland 601HDS 85 hours Stratus Subaru (painting in progress)
at www.macsmachine.com
David X wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>
>I cringe every time I hear of an in-flight failure of an auto conversion. If you
plan to use an auto conversion, I'd stick to reputable VW, Subaru or Mazda
engine converters with a good track record in aviation. The guy a hanger down
from me is putting a supersharged RAM Subaru in his Glasair. Nice looking engine
with a nice layout.
>
>Downside to the 912S, Subaru and Wankel is need for water cooling. It's just one
more factor to deal with ... but minor in my opinion.
>
>
>--------
>Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Hello Randy,
Not having any first hand experience with the Franklin engine... The "throw
away" idea COULD be more in costs than in quality of the engine.
Will explain: Can be a very good quality engine, sold at very low profit price,
that the cost of the parts plus labor and time down of the plane could make
more afordable to buy a new one at the overhaul time (could be from 1,000 to
2,500 hrs I DONT know).
Same happens with car accidents and engine/transmission rebuilts, if the car
is not a "Classic" or one you like a lot. is better to sell it as junk and buy
a new/used one than go to all the process of repair... There are cars and
trucks so GOOD that when is time to rebuild the engine, everything else is falling
apart and there is no case to rebuild...
Airplanes are diferent, because we (pilots, builders and mechanics) dont let
then down with the mantainace... But the example/compare could work a little
:-)
Notice the capital letters, no personal direct experience with Franklin, but
what I have read in internet...
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.
Randy Bryant <randy@n344rb.com> wrote:
The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated conversation
between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago. He stated to me then that
the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines, meaning when they need to be rebuilt,
you just throw it away and buy another... He said they didn't even make
an overhaul kit for it... Whether or not this is true, I'm not 100% sure...
If you are planning to buy a Franklin, this might be something to check out
first..
Thanks,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
----- Original Message -----
From: VideoFlyer@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:20 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
Yes...I'm curious about the Franklin engine, too! Why haven't we heard much
about it? Sounds like a contender!
Dave
---------------------------------
Message 36
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| Subject: | RE: Franklin Engines |
Apparently Frankling is going to continue, in Poland. The factory info
might be:
Franklin Aircraft Engines Sp. z o.o.
ul. Chelminska 208
86-300 Grudziadz
Poland
tel. +48 56 / 46-54-316
fax. +48 56 / 46-54-307
e-mail : office@franklin-engines.com
www.franklin-engines.com
Note it does not appear to be PZL. Go to the documents link and they
have pdf links to parts books etc. If this is all true it's good new
for Franklin owners.
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Could be... I was just going on what he said about them not offering an
overhaul kit... NOW, this could be a different case now since I've seen
emails here today about the company being bought out, under new
management...etc... Matter of fact, I'm hoping this is the case.. I
sure would like to see a good reliable NEW engine in the $6900 price
bracket... Competition is a good thing!
Thanks,
Randy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
Hello Randy,
Not having any first hand experience with the Franklin engine... The
"throw away" idea COULD be more in costs than in quality of the engine.
Will explain: Can be a very good quality engine, sold at very low
profit price, that the cost of the parts plus labor and time down of
the plane could make more afordable to buy a new one at the overhaul
time (could be from 1,000 to 2,500 hrs I DONT know).
Same happens with car accidents and engine/transmission rebuilts, if
the car is not a "Classic" or one you like a lot. is better to sell it
as junk and buy a new/used one than go to all the process of repair...
There are cars and trucks so GOOD that when is time to rebuild the
engine, everything else is falling apart and there is no case to
rebuild...
Airplanes are diferent, because we (pilots, builders and mechanics)
dont let then down with the mantainace... But the example/compare could
work a little :-)
Notice the capital letters, no personal direct experience with
Franklin, but what I have read in internet...
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.
Randy Bryant <randy@n344rb.com> wrote:
The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated
conversation between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago. He
stated to me then that the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines,
meaning when they need to be rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy
another... He said they didn't even make an overhaul kit for it...
Whether or not this is true, I'm not 100% sure... If you are planning
to buy a Franklin, this might be something to check out first..
Thanks,
Randy
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
----- Original Message -----
From: VideoFlyer@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:20 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL
Yes...I'm curious about the Franklin engine, too! Why haven't we
heard much about it? Sounds like a contender!
Dave
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
My reasearch on the DuPont site showed that Imron AF730 topcoat weighed 8.5 pounds
per gallon and once dry it weighed only 3.8 pounds from that original gallon.
That's way different from what you found for polyurethane. I wonder if maybe
less urethane would cover more airplane?
Ed Moody II
---- David X <dxj@comcast.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>
> You brought up a good point about dry paint weighing less than wet paint ...
a point I didn't think about. I did a little research ...
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
Just a guess: The solvent weighs about the same as gasoline - 6
pounds per gallon. Perhaps there is as much as a quart or two of
solvent in a gallon. If the can weighs 12 pounds as suggested by the
earlier poster, then there might be around 9 pounds of solids in the gallon.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 12:46 PM 7/31/2006, you wrote:
>Obviously, when primer or paint dries the moisture is mostly
>gone...and the dried primer/paint left behind must weigh much less
>than it did in the can.
>
>Does anybody know what percentage of weight is left in paint/primer
>after it dries?
>
>DJV
>
>D
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
I can't argue a whole lot with you, Larry. I certainly do see a value for all of
us because of those who step out of the mainstream.
I will say that one-off, one-time personal conversions are probably not going to
help the industry much as compared to reputable rebuilders/distributors who
make it their mission to perfect the conversion and retain an institutional knowledge.
As you say ... the competition drives the price down and provides a
viable alternative for the first-time builder. The one-offs are not going to be
much competition to the mainstream and tend simply to drive up accident/incident
statistics.
Im not bashing Subaru owners or any other alternative engine user. Please, everyone,
don't rip me a new one if that's what you think I'm saying.
I'm simply reiterating one man's humble, perhaps uninformed opinion, that if you
are a first time builder or a first time experimental engine user ... try to
stick to alternative engines with good track records modified by reputable rebuilders/converters
... rather than just popping in the Subaru engine from the
car you crashed last year.
Reminds me of the debate I was in months ago with a guy who wanted to build a 500
air strip in his back yard for his CH701 (trees at each end of the 500 strip).
I dunno, maybe I'll get slammed for saying something that seems common sense. How
dare me!
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
> the auto conversion guys are
> doing us a favor and should be encouraged
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51226#51226
Message 41
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| Subject: | More Oshkosh Press Release |
Zenair Ltd and Czech Aircraft Works Terminate License Agreement.
July 28, 2006: Chris Heintz, president of Zenair Ltd. and Chip Erwin,
CEO of Czech Aircraft Works, jointly
announced today that they have terminated the longstanding license
agreement under which the Zenair
ZODIAC CH 601 and STOL CH 701 light aircraft designs were produced in
the Czech Republic for the
European market, effective December 31, 2006.
Starting in 2007, the popular all-metal STOL CH 701 and ZODIAC CH 601
Heintz designs will no longer be
produced and sold by Czech Aircraft Works. They will continue to be made
available across Europe by the
Zenair dealer network, as kits coming from Zenith Aircraft Company
(Missouri, USA) and as assembled
aircraft from Zenair Ltd.
Czech Aircraft Works will continue manufacturing the Heintz designs
through 2006, and will continue
thereafter to provide spare parts and technical support to its existing
customers.
In the early 90s, Heintz entered into a license agreement with Czech
Aircraft Works of Stare Mesto, Czech
Republic, to produce and market his STOL CH 701 and ZODIAC CH 601
designs for the European market.
The Czech-produced Zodiacs were modified and lightened to meet European
rules for "microlight" aircraft.
CZAW produced some 750 such machines under this agreement.
Czech Aircraft Works has designed and developed its own line of light
aircraft, the amphibious Mermaid
and the two-seat Parrot and SportCruiser. Heintz (designer and engineer
responsible for the entire line of
Zenair aircraft) and Erwin both emphasized that the Czech Aircraft Works
designs not affiliated with Chris
Heintz or Zenair.
In the United States, Heintz's designs are manufactured in kit form by
Zenith Aircraft Company (in
Missouri), and as factory-produced Light-Sport Aircraft (LSA) by
Aircraft Manufacturing and Development
Co. (in Georgia).
cdngoose
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
7/28/2006
--
7/28/2006
Message 42
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| Subject: | EAA Airventure Oshkosh 2006 (Or just plain Oshkosh to |
most of us)
Hello All, for those of you who were at the builders dinner, how did you
like the format? Would you like to see something added? Also, once again
I would like to Thank John Hinde=92s at HYPERLINK
"http://www.johnsplane.com/"www.johnsplane.com for his production of the
Builders dinner meal movie.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
The Zenith dinner was a little different this year without
Chris there. He is in France building a house. Partially retired, he
is still designing and responding to builder requests to modify the
design. Can-Zac admirably filled the host role. William Wynne of
Corvair fame was there and talked about working with the Heintz family.
The effort to provide an FWF for the 801 in Venezuela is well on its way
to completion. George presented slides of his junior high school
classes building 701s letting just a little politics creep into the
discussion concerning the impact of the "Leave no child behind" program.
And Michael Heintz talked about his new venture out west. Jon Croke was
there and took videos of willing builders so that we can connect faces
and names. I got to talk to several builders, including one about the
complete an 801 with the 8 cylinder Jabiru. He said that he had Jabiru
5100 serial number 5. The dinner was Thursday night though, and I was
already a bit tired from walking all over the show grounds since
arriving the Saturday before. There were no big announcements from
Zenith/Zenair/AMD/CANZAC, etc. that I heard, just a comfortable evening
among the Zenith community. It was clear that the Zenith vendor
community now includes a lot of new faces reflecting growth that
benefits all of us, vendors and customers alike.
Jeff Davidson
CH 601 HD/ Jabiru 3300A
Herndon, Virginia
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
7/28/2006
--
7/28/2006
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Franklin Engines |
Hi Randy,
Thanks for the post on Franklin engines. I looked at their web site
and got more interested.
The weight looks a little high at just over 200 pounds, but the 123
HP at 2800 RPM looks very attractive. The specs show 100/130 fuel,
so I don't think it wants to run mogas but should do fine with
100LL. I don't know if I have the proper ability to come up with a
FWF package for such an engine, and Jabiru offers all the answers in
a nice neat package. Still, I am interested to learn more about the
Franklin choice.
I sent them an email asking for USA distributor. I will post the
reply if I get one.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 03:03 PM 7/31/2006, you wrote:
>Apparently Frankling is going to continue, in Poland. The factory
>info might be:
>
>[]
>
>
>Franklin Aircraft Engines Sp. z o.o.
>
>
>ul. Che mi ska 208
>
>86-300 Grudzi dz
>
>Poland
>
>tel. +48 56 / 46-54-316
>
>fax. +48 56 / 46-54-307
>
>e-mail : office@franklin-engines.com
>
><http://www.franklin-engines.com>www.franklin-engines.com
>
>Note it does not appear to be PZL. Go to the documents link and
>they have pdf links to parts books etc. If this is all true it's
>good new for Franklin owners.
>
>Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
It's amazing how two people can read the same damned thing and get something different
out of it when trying to support an argument.
You're quoting clear-coat at 56% solids by weight (ready to spray); which means
you would expect the dry paint to be 56% of the weight of the wet paint ... or
about 4.76 lbs/gallon (according to Spock). :roll:
You plan on using just clear-coat? Might look really cool, but not sure if it sticks
to bare aluminum very well.
What the hell do I know, anyway. It was just a thought ... that paint actaully
weighs something ... and therefore affects CG. Everyone else can live in denial
for all I care.
Anyway, hope the CG spreadsheet helps somebody out.
dredmoody(at)cox.net wrote:
> My reasearch on the DuPont site showed that Imron AF730 topcoat weighed 8.5 pounds
per gallon and once dry it weighed only 3.8 pounds from that original gallon.
That's way different from what you found for polyurethane. I wonder if maybe
less urethane would cover more airplane?
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51233#51233
Message 45
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I have seen posts about the Jabiru 3300 and 3300A. Can anyone tell
me what the difference is between the two.
Do not archive
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99@bellsouth.net>
You want dependability, go to RAM Performance.com
Ron builds one heck of an engine. Look at his specs.
The only part of his engine that is Subaru is the block.
100, 115, 130, 140 hp-All blueprinted, balanced, and lots of high-end parts
in the engine. He also has a complete firewall forward package. This guy
has been at it a long time and knows what he's doing.
Joe Gardner/Zenith 601 XL refit N101HD
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 6:55 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>
> I can't argue a whole lot with you, Larry. I certainly do see a value for
> all of us because of those who step out of the mainstream.
>
> I will say that one-off, one-time personal conversions are probably not
> going to help the industry much as compared to reputable
> rebuilders/distributors who make it their mission to perfect the
> conversion and retain an institutional knowledge. As you say ... the
> competition drives the price down and provides a viable alternative for
> the first-time builder. The one-offs are not going to be much competition
> to the mainstream and tend simply to drive up accident/incident
> statistics.
>
> I?Tm not bashing Subaru owners or any other alternative engine user.
> Please, everyone, don't rip me a new one if that's what you think I'm
> saying.
>
> I'm simply reiterating one man's humble, perhaps uninformed opinion, that
> if you are a first time builder or a first time experimental engine user
> ... try to stick to alternative engines with good track records modified
> by reputable rebuilders/converters ... rather than just popping in the
> Subaru engine from the car you crashed last year.
>
> Reminds me of the debate I was in months ago with a guy who wanted to
> build a 500?T air strip in his back yard for his CH701 (trees at each end
> of the 500?T strip).
>
> I dunno, maybe I'll get slammed for saying something that seems common
> sense. How dare me!
>
>
> larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
>> the auto conversion guys are
>> doing us a favor and should be encouraged
>
>
> --------
> Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51226#51226
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Larry,
I guess I want to take the other side of the competition argument.
I don't think the big engine companies like TCM and whoever makes
Lycoming engines really notice when a home builder does a successful
auto conversion. I am learning the hard way that these big companies
are not oriented toward home builders. We only buy one engine at a
time, and generally take more effort than the big companies would
find justified by such a small sale.
After trying to get even a smidgen of information about the new
IO-240 from TCM I am convinced they really are not interested in
selling me an engine. They did tell me if I sent them a check they
would send me an engine, but they couldn't even supply me with a data
sheet on the engine. They do have an 800 number for information, but
it seems to be permanently off hook.
Other companies like Jabiru and Rotax have distributors or
departments that go to the trouble to deal with individual
builders. They offer FWF kits and good support for a single engine
sale. It is these sorts of companies that might notice a lost sale
because of a successful auto conversion. However, these sales groups
already have some competition from the big boys and each other.
The other side of the whole argument is that people who get personal
pleasure and education from converting an auto engine for use in
their home built plane are doing just what the whole program is meant
to do. They are getting involved in aviation and also learning a lot
and having a good time all together. This is worthwhile in my book.
I applaud those who go to the trouble to build their own
engine. This might come as a surprise to some listers considering
some of my previous posts on this subject. My only problem with one
particular group of conversion advocates is they seem to have made
their choice for misguided reasons.
Paul
XL fuselage
>Automotive conversions are one reason "aircraft engines" don't cost
>more than they do. They have competition. Every auto conversion that
>is successful provides incentive for the conventional aircraft
>engine suppliers to compete, if indirectly, against lower prices.
-
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
David,
Don't be offended. If your every word was not dissected and examined you
would think you posted to the wrong list. I'm sure the silent majority will
find your spreadsheet quite useful, as is. I do.
Now, what color scotchbrite pad do you recommend?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Do Not Archive
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
It's amazing how two people can read the same damned thing and get something
different out of it when trying to support an argument...
...What the hell do I know, anyway. It was just a thought ... that paint
actaully weighs something ... and therefore affects CG. Everyone else can
live in denial for all I care.
Anyway, hope the CG spreadsheet helps somebody out.
dredmoody(at)cox.net wrote:
> My reasearch on the DuPont site showed that Imron AF730 topcoat weighed
8.5 pounds per gallon and once dry it weighed only 3.8 pounds from that
original gallon. That's way different from what you found for polyurethane.
I wonder if maybe less urethane would cover more airplane?
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51233#51233
Message 49
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| Subject: | Matronics Email List Web Server Upgrade Tonight... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
This evening I will be upgrading the Matronics Web Server hardware to a new Quad-processor
2.8Ghz Xeon system (yes, 4-physical CPUs!) with an Ultra 320 SCSI
Raid 5 disk system and 5GB of DDR2 RAM.
As with the older system, the new system will be running the latest version of
Redhat Linux. Most of the software configuration work is already done for the
migration, but I still have to sync all of the archive and forum data from the
old system to the new system. I am anticipating about 2 to 3 hours of downtime
for me to fully make the transition, although it could be considerable less
if everything goes according to plan.
The Matronics Webserver will be *UNavailable* from the Internet during the work,
and you will receive a time-out if you try to connect during the upgrade.
Email List Distribution will be *available* during the upgrade of the Web Server,
and List message distribution will function as normal.
This represents a significant performance upgrade for the Matronics Web Server
and you should notice nicely improved searching and surfing performance following
the upgrade!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 50
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| Subject: | Any Zenair CH2000 owners on the List? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: TYA2 <tya2@4-fly.net>
Dear Listmates,
I am a new CH2000 owner, that is the certified airplane with the 115 hp
Lycoming. Mine is serial no 20-0010 a 1995 model. One of the things I
noticed about the airplane is a bizarre seat design? and cockpit windows
that are heavily crazed. This airplane is on its 3rd or 4th set of
windows in only 12 years of life and 1150 hours TT. It spent a lot of
time in New Hampshire where it was a flight school trainer. Any Zenair
CH2T or CH2000 owners out there willing to suggest alternatives to the
LEXAN windows that obviously don't work with this plane very well. I have
been around airplanes for 45 years and an owner for 32 and this plane has
some of the worst windows I have seen.
AMD in Georgia offers a factory rebuilt on the airplane for $20,000 US and
factory rebuild on the cockpit area for $6000 US but neither includes
paint. I am looking for information on the costs of replacing all of the
windows in terms of raw materials and labor? and I am also looking for
information on any one who has had the factory cockpit upgrade done? How
long did it take? Were you happy with the results? Did Zenair meet
their schedule for completion of your airplane?
If this is not an appropriate list for CH2000 questions please suggest an
alternative web site or organization?
Rocky in Alberta, Canada
Message 51
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| Subject: | Zenith Dinner DVD |
Greetings to all Zenith builders..
Just finished reviewing the film footage from the Zenith builder's
dinner... (mostly interviews from willing dinner participants!).
Certain parts would definitely bring a smile to your face! ... about a
half hour long with some footage of the ZAC Oshkosh tent setup...
I can get a copy of the DVD sent to you, as I should have it finished by
the end of the week. (U.S. and Canadian residents) I will need your
mailing address. But please, email it to me, NOT the list! (
Jon@joncroke.com )
Thanks to Mark and David from CAN-ZAC for running/hosting the dinner..
as always a great, fun time and nice to put some faces to the names...
do not archive
Jon
(5% complete on 701 #3 due to BIG help from friends on this list!)
Message 52
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The big difference is I'm on a stick frame and vinyl siding to match
the rest of the house, not a pole building. 2x6 walls on 16" centers for
the walls, 7/16" OBS for the outside walls, 3/4" for the roof on 24"
center trusses. Steel roof for the whole 72'x28'. Fully insulated, with
1/4" OBS and pegboard on 2 interior walls, 7/16" on the other two. Gas
heat and a subpanel with 1-30A 240V and 2-20A 120V circuits.
At least you had the wife to help! I contracted out the foundation
and went solo the rest of the way.
Sounds like where there's a will, there's a way though.
All I can say is, I can't wait to get back to the project.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: ron wehba
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Garanger
40k wow!!!,
I just built a 24 x 24 with a 4" slab w/ 12" x 24" footing using 2x6
11ga. rect. tubing for all the strutural and 4" c- purlin white r-panal
one 7 x 9 roll-up door and one 3' walk door, sidewalls 9' tall roof on a
1/12 pitch. built 3 trusses stood up on 12' center, purlin on 4' centers
all labor mine and wifes one helper on concrete.
slab
concrete 1250, plus 200 trip charge and fuel surcharge.
rebar 125
power trowl rental 50
building
all structural steel, sheet and trim 3400
doors 650
wiring don't know yet
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Garanger
Sheesh, $40K! All I can say guys, is if you know you're going to
have to build a bigger shop to complete your project, start stashing
necessary supplies away when they come on a loss leader sale. Metals
(Wiring) and plastics (Vinyl siding) are the worst.
12/2 romex was $39.26/100' when I started the garanger 4 months
ago, and it's as high as $128/100' now. I got my siding for $50/sq, it's
running as high as $68/sq now. Thankfully, a contractor friend let me
use his account number when I had to get the 10/2 I used to run from the
main box or I would have had to take out a bank loan!
I got out for $11K, 4 months sweat equity, and a LOT of
shopping. Check out the little guys- they might have stock they haven't
updated the prices on yet.
Good building, be it residential or Zenith.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Garanger
Simple shop or garage with some up-grades, over $100 per sq.ft.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Do Not Archive
All-
The garanger's done.
. It cost .probably 25-30K in our area. God knows what it would
be on the West Coast. .
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Paul,
That isn't quite correct. The "typical" conversion as described by William Wynne provides more power than an 0-200. If anyone wants exact performance numbers all they have to do is go to: www.flycorvair.com. It's all there.
While economics is one of the reasons some of us have chosen Corvair, it's not
the only reason.
I like the fact that unlike most auto conversions, the typical Corvair conversion
gets less HP as an aircraft engine than it did as a car engine. Most of the
engines used were 110 HP in the car while some were turbo charged and pumping
out 180+ HP. The conversion I'm building will put out 100 HP at 2800 RPM.
A lot has been said about the lack of corvair reliability, especially as it relates
to broken crankshafts, however, this issue was almost unheard of in 40 years
of corvair auto conversions until recently. Most of these recent failures
were from folks pushing the limits, by building more powerful engines, increasing
displacement and other "expirements". My hat is off to them. They are
the real expirementers. I'm just building a plane and an engine with proven track
records.
Dan Dempsey
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for 601XL
Many people like the Corvair conversion for economical purchase price. Nobody
seems to have any exact performance numbers for these engines, though. The
anecdotal information indicates they are not very powerful when compared to all
the other choices mentioned here.
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Dempsey <leinad@direcway.com>
David,
Do you cringe when ever you hear about the in-flight failure of 30,000
dollar Lycoming? Do you think this doesn't happen? A while back there was
a rash of broken cranks on O-360s. As I recall it forced a recall.
Do not archive.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:22 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>
> I cringe every time I hear of an in-flight failure of an auto conversion.
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff " <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
A few years back a builder in Maryland (Wheaton and Salisbury) named Jim
Burkholder built and flew a 601 with a Franklin engine. I saw the plane at
Sun-N-Fun one year. I've lost track of him, but I suspect that his email
address is in the archives or that he could be found in the telephone
directory for a reference on the Franklin engine. He bought when there was
a dealer in Winchester, Virginia.
Jeff Davidson
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Therrien
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 7:42 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
A friend and I recently purchased two Franklin engines
for our 601s. We expect to make the conversion over
the upcoming winter. This engine looks much more
robust and heavy than our installed Subarus, but the
final weight will be similar (due to getting rid of
the redrive, cooling system, ...)
You're right saying there is not a great deal of info.
More guys (probably here as well) use the 6 cylinder
engine which is essentially the same construction and
a lot could be learned from those people.
I read that the o-200 mount does not really fit the
engine, unless you don't install the alternator (there
is a conflict between the alternator and the mount).
For the o-200 cowling, not sure, but I will most
probably know that soon (I intend to buy the o-200
cowling). For the engine mount, I'll make one myself
and have it welded by a specialist.
Last week, I bought an Ivo Prop (Magnum model, in
flight adjustable), that I will install on my Subaru
installation and then, will be compatible with (or
better suited for) the Franklin after changing one
plate. I look forward to try this!
This being said, I'll certainly keep the list informed
as I go through the conversion and flight tests. I do
expect an increase in performance and a reduction in
maintenance effort.
Michel
--- TxDave <dclaytx2@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "TxDave"
> <dclaytx2@hotmail.com>
>
> I am curious about the Franklin engine, also. They
> offer an FAA certified 125HP engine that fits an
> O-200 mount for $6900. However, I have had
> difficulty finding any information on the internet
> from homebuilders who are flying with this engine.
>
> Dave Clay
> Temple, TX
> 601 scratch builder
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________________________
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
Hi Dan,
Thanks for writing.
When I spoke of performance, I meant to speak about aircraft
performance rather than engine performance on a test stand.
I don't have enough information to have a real opinion, but I have
heard a few comments from real airplane builders that the speed
numbers for CH601HDS planes are about 50% higher with Jabiru 3300
installations than with Corvair installations. This might be a
reflection of the actual airplanes rather than the engines, but it is
all I have to consider.
Aircraft performance comes from a combination of actual engine horse
power (as measured on a dynamometer) along with propeller selection
and weight. I have never heard of a Corvair conversion that could
compete with a real aircraft engine like the Jabiru. I am not sure
about the Lycoming O-235, but the numbers given on ZAC's web site
indicate it gets considerably more cruise speed than the numbers
given by list members who have actually spoken about their
performance with Corvair installations.
Best regards,
Paul
XL Fuselage
At 06:42 PM 7/31/2006, you wrote:
>Paul,
>That isn't quite correct. The "typical" conversion as described by
>William Wynne provides more power than an 0-200.
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Because airplanes very by many different factors the best thing to do is
weigh it and then calculate the W&B. I've seen AC43 mentioned several times
on this list..... It has all the procedures and math ( grade 4 level)
required to produce your custom W&B sheet for conventional and tri gear
planes.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David X
> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:45 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Weight & Balance
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
>
> It's amazing how two people can read the same damned thing
> and get something different out of it when trying to support
> an argument.
>
> You're quoting clear-coat at 56% solids by weight (ready to
> spray); which means you would expect the dry paint to be 56%
> of the weight of the wet paint ... or about 4.76 lbs/gallon
> (according to Spock). :roll:
>
> You plan on using just clear-coat? Might look really cool,
> but not sure if it sticks to bare aluminum very well.
>
> What the hell do I know, anyway. It was just a thought ...
> that paint actaully weighs something ... and therefore
> affects CG. Everyone else can live in denial for all I care.
>
> Anyway, hope the CG spreadsheet helps somebody out.
>
>
>
>
> dredmoody(at)cox.net wrote:
> > My reasearch on the DuPont site showed that Imron AF730
> topcoat weighed 8.5 pounds per gallon and once dry it weighed
> only 3.8 pounds from that original gallon. That's way
> different from what you found for polyurethane. I wonder if
> maybe less urethane would cover more airplane?
>
>
> --------
> Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51233#51233
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Dinner DVD |
And sorry I didnt make it clear in the original post.. this DVD is FREE
-- thanks to the many wonderful HomebuiltHELP customers out there.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Croke
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:03 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith Dinner DVD
Greetings to all Zenith builders..
Just finished reviewing the film footage from the Zenith builder's
dinner... (mostly interviews from willing dinner participants!).
Certain parts would definitely bring a smile to your face! ... about a
half hour long with some footage of the ZAC Oshkosh tent setup...
I can get a copy of the DVD sent to you, as I should have it finished
by the end of the week. (U.S. and Canadian residents) I will need your
mailing address. But please, email it to me, NOT the list! (
Jon@joncroke.com )
Thanks to Mark and David from CAN-ZAC for running/hosting the dinner..
as always a great, fun time and nice to put some faces to the names...
do not archive
Jon
(5% complete on 701 #3 due to BIG help from friends on this list!)
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I found that one of my friend has a Franklin engine he
used in an Emeraude aircraft. He really liked it. I
did a top overhaul at 800 hours and it costed next to
nothing (he only had the cylinders honed, did a valve
job and changed the rings... no need to resleeve the
cylinders (sleeves were available at 60$ each at that
time, 80$ now)). He bought the US version when it was
sold as a do it yourself kit.
The engine is rated for 1500 hours.
Michel
--- Randy Bryant <randy@n344rb.com> wrote:
> Could be... I was just going on what he said about
> them not offering an overhaul kit... NOW, this could
> be a different case now since I've seen emails here
> today about the company being bought out, under new
> management...etc... Matter of fact, I'm hoping this
> is the case.. I sure would like to see a good
> reliable NEW engine in the $6900 price bracket...
> Competition is a good thing!
>
> Thanks,
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________________________
Message 60
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: craig@craigandjean.com
There is no need to speculate about the relative in-the-air performance
of these two engines. Phil Maxson's 601XL/Corvair is flying and I
believe he has published some performance numbers. Anyone flying behind
a 3300 can publish their numbers and we can compare. The atmospheric
conditions won't be identical but they should be close enough for a
useful comparison to be made.
-- Craig
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
Everyone knows blue scotchbrite is the best. I don't see why we discuss it
so much on this list! Now where did I put that purple aluminum magnet and the
box of bend deductions???
Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com> wrote: David,
Don't be offended. If your every word was not dissected and examined you would
think you posted to the wrong list. I'm sure the silent majority will find your
spreadsheet quite useful, as is. I do.
Now, what color scotchbrite pad do you recommend?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
Do Not Archive
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" <dxj@comcast.net>
It's amazing how two people can read the same damned thing and get something
different out of it when trying to support an argument...
...What the hell do I know, anyway. It was just a thought ... that paint actaully
weighs something ... and therefore affects CG. Everyone else can live in
denial for all I care.
Anyway, hope the CG spreadsheet helps somebody out.
dredmoody(at)cox.net wrote:
> My reasearch on the DuPont site showed that Imron AF730 topcoat weighed 8.5
pounds per gallon and once dry it weighed only 3.8 pounds from that original
gallon. That's way different from what you found for polyurethane. I wonder if
maybe less urethane would cover more airplane?
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51233#51233
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