---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/01/06: 58 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:55 AM - Re: Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods (Tom Faulkner) 2. 05:13 AM - Re: Engine for 601XL (rhartwig11@juno.com) 3. 05:13 AM - Re: Re: Engine for 601XL (Michel Therrien) 4. 05:13 AM - Re: Re: Franklin Engines (Michel Therrien) 5. 05:24 AM - Franklin (Zill Coleman) 6. 05:59 AM - Re: Any Zenair CH2000 owners on the List? (N5SL) 7. 06:01 AM - Re: Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods (n801bh@netzero.com) 8. 06:17 AM - Alternitive 601 Step designs? (Gig Giacona) 9. 06:44 AM - Paint weight (John Bolding) 10. 07:00 AM - Polished Aluminum (Scott Thatcher) 11. 07:00 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL (Phil Maxson) 12. 07:58 AM - Re: Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods (Geoff Heap) 13. 08:01 AM - Re: Polished Aluminum (Stanley Challgren) 14. 08:03 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL (Paul Mulwitz) 15. 08:34 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL (Tom Henderson) 16. 08:39 AM - Re: Polished Aluminum (Robin Bellach) 17. 09:21 AM - Speed & Zeniths: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL (TYA2) 18. 09:42 AM - Re: Paint weight (LarryMcFarland) 19. 09:59 AM - Re: Speed & Zeniths (don wentz) 20. 10:20 AM - Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: Speed & Zeniths (Randy Bryant) 21. 10:54 AM - Re: Speed & Zeniths (Paul Mulwitz) 22. 11:45 AM - Re: Speed & Zeniths: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL (N5SL) 23. 11:48 AM - Re: Speed & Zeniths (Mike Fothergill) 24. 11:51 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL (Gig Giacona) 25. 12:11 PM - 801 Tail Height (Dave Ruddiman) 26. 12:43 PM - Re: 801 Tail Height (Bryan Martin) 27. 12:55 PM - Re: 801 Tail Height () 28. 01:01 PM - Re: 801 Tail Height (Tom Henderson) 29. 01:55 PM - Tail Height? (Zed Smith) 30. 02:19 PM - Re: Engine for 601XL (David X) 31. 02:42 PM - Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods (Robin Bellach) 32. 02:56 PM - Re: [SPAM? ScoRe: 14.900] Re: Engine for 601XL (Frank Stutzman) 33. 03:18 PM - Re: Alternitive 601 Step designs? (George Swinford) 34. 03:34 PM - Re: Weight & Balance (David X) 35. 04:09 PM - Re: Rotax 912 Tachometer Problems (David X) 36. 04:15 PM - Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G (Eddie Seve) 37. 04:35 PM - Re: Tail Height? (Dave Ruddiman) 38. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G (Gary Boothe) 39. 05:02 PM - Re: Polished Aluminum (Phil Maxson) 40. 05:14 PM - : Weight of paint affecting the C of G (Robin Bellach) 41. 05:22 PM - Re: Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 42. 05:48 PM - Re: EAA Airventure Oshkosh 2006 (Or just plain Oshkosh to most of us) (Jeff) 43. 05:51 PM - Re: 801 Tail Height (n801bh@netzero.com) 44. 06:11 PM - Stainless steel rivets (Chris sinfield) 45. 06:21 PM - Re: Polished Aluminum (Tim & Diane Shankland) 46. 06:28 PM - Re: Stainless steel rivets (Robin Bellach) 47. 07:04 PM - Re: Stainless steel rivets (Jaybannist@cs.com) 48. 07:36 PM - Now What? (Dave Ruddiman) 49. 07:49 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 Tachometer Problems (NYTerminat@aol.com) 50. 08:00 PM - Corvair Flight Engine for Sale (Dave Thompson) 51. 08:06 PM - Re: Now What? (Steve Hulland) 52. 08:17 PM - Re: Now What? (Robert L. Stone) 53. 08:20 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL (Craig Payne) 54. 08:59 PM - Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G (David X) 55. 09:27 PM - Re: Now What? (Dave Ruddiman) 56. 09:33 PM - 701 Seat Belt Bracket (doug kandle) 57. 11:39 PM - Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 58. 11:48 PM - Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:34 AM PST US From: "Tom Faulkner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tom Faulkner" Geoff: Ben monitors this list, but you can contact him at n801bh@netzero.com The Yamaha boots where on his 801, which I used on my 801 as well. I could also get the dimensions you need. Tom Faulkner N801TP ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:40 AM PST US From: rhartwig11@juno.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com Paul, Things are going very smooth in the discussion of engine conversions, but one reason things get nasty is when someone makes a comment like, "My only problem with one particular group of conversion advocates is they seem to have made their choice for misguided reasons." I hope that my choice of Jab 2200 for the 701 is well guided. (Also.......I bought some of the camouflage ScotchBrite, but can't seem to find it.) Rich Hartwig Waunakee, WI rhartwig11@juno.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:40 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Don't be too much excited! This is NOT a 6900$ engine. At that price, it is not equiped. It needs the magnetos (1300), carburetor (1000?), plugs (120$), plug wires (160$), starter (500$), etc. I would call it a 10 000$ or 11 000$ engine excluding FWF package (mount, air box, cooler, etc) Michel --- Randy Bryant wrote: > Could be... I was just going on what he said about > them not offering an overhaul kit... NOW, this could > be a different case now since I've seen emails here > today about the company being bought out, under new > management...etc... Matter of fact, I'm hoping this > is the case.. I sure would like to see a good > reliable NEW engine in the $6900 price bracket... > Competition is a good thing! > > Thanks, > > Randy > Do Not Archive ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:40 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Franklin Engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien They are not continuing... the plant that was manufacturing the PZL Franklin was purchased by Pratt & Whitney Canada. Then, PWC decided to stop the production of piston engines at that plant (their business is turboprops and jet engines). A new company purchased the tooling and plans with the intention of resuming production. Apparently this what happened. I also heard that somebody in the US wanted to become the distributor for those Franklin engines (I'll post when I find back who it is). This distributor would not be the same as the previous one who has the Franklinengines.com web site. (I purchased mine from him just before SnF). I don't know what is the pricing with the new Franklin manufacturer... Michel --- "Randy L. Thwing" wrote: > Apparently Frankling is going to continue, in > Poland. The factory info might be: > > ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:35 AM PST US From: "Zill Coleman" Subject: Zenith-List: Franklin Franklin engines are not available. Production is "supposed to restart" in Poland this winter. See website advertising, but no stock at http://www.franklinengines.com/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:08 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Any Zenair CH2000 owners on the List? --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Rocky: If you can find a builder of a CH640, you may get some help there. I understand the ch640 is similar to the CH2000. Steve Adams in Evans Georgia, Doug Geese of Churubusco, Indiana and Kay C Caldwell of Gunnison, Utah are building CH640's according to http://www.frappr.com/zenithch640 Also, you can contact Zenith Aircraft in Mexico, MO and they can hook you up with a builder or two. We had a guy on this list that used to post photos regularly but I'm embarassed that I can't remember his name (help me out here guys). He is finished and flying and had an excellent website with good photos. I hope this helps, Scott Laughlin Omaha, Nebraska Canopy done, Working on Engine cowl DO NOT ARCHIVE --- TYA2 wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: TYA2 > > I am a new CH2000 owner, that is the certified > airplane with the 115 hp > Lycoming. I am looking for information on the costs > of replacing all of the > windows in terms of raw materials and labor? and I > am also looking for > information on any one who has had the factory > cockpit upgrade done? How > long did it take? __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:51 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods The yamaha boots are on my 801. They will probably fit on the entire Zen ith line though Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Geoff Heap" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" I'm looking for Ben Haas formerly at Benford2@aol.com or anyone who has fitted Yamaha part # 8CR2195e to their steering rods. I have a question regarding the dimensions of the assy. They may or may not fit a 701. His photo in the archive looks like it may be a 601. Than ks....Geoff Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51170#51170 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== The yamaha boots are on my 801. They will probably fit on the enti re Zenith line though


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowe rair.com

-- "Geoff Heap" <stol10@COMCAST.NET> ; wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted b y: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>

I'm&nbs p;looking for Ben Haas formerly at Benford 2@aol.com or anyone who has fitted Yamaha& nbsp;part # 8CR2195e to their steering rod s.
I have a question regarding the dime nsions of the assy. They may or may&n bsp;not fit a 701. His photo in the&n bsp;archive looks like it may be a 60 1. Thanks....Geoff
Do not archive




R ead this topic online here:

http://forums.mat ronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51170#51170







========================        - The Zenith-List&nb e many List utilities such as the Sub sp;           &nb sp;           &nb sp;           &nb ======================== ========================       - NEW MATRONICS LIST& p;           &nbs p;           &nbs p;           &nbs ======================== =           &nb    Thank you for your generous s bsp;           &n bsp;        -Matt Dralle,&n ======================== ==================



&n bsp;
 
 
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:04 AM PST US From: "Gig Giacona" Subject: Zenith-List: Alternitive 601 Step designs? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" Has anyone come up with an alternitive design for the entry step that doesn't have the bar that goes under the fuselage? When I installed my bottom access door I mis-read the plans and installed it further forward than I was supposed to. While this doesn't stop me from using the original step design it does make fairing it somewhat more complex. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51462#51462 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:10 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Zenith-List: Paint weight Something you guys have overlooked while discussing the additional weight of paint is the transfer effeciency of the application method you use. Most of that expensive stuff you bought ends up evaporating or on the floor as overspray. I sold/installed/helped design/repaired/trained painters in the spray equipment industry for over 30 yrs. In hundreds of installations across the country where we actually measured the part weight and paint weight before spraying, immediatly after spraying and again after cure/drying I can tell you for a FACT that the transfer effeciency claimed by some paint spray equipment manufacturers is somewhere between wishful thinking and market hype, kinda like cruise speeds in factory brochures. Without going into a long discussion I'll give you a few GENERAL guidelines and a couple of examples. Aluminum airplanes are on the friendly side as far as transfer percentages goes, lots of flat surfaces as compared to a tubing fuselage or a window frame. Transfer % of a conventional type spray gun (worst) will range from less than 10% (spraying that tube fuselage)to a high of 40-50% while coating a sheet of alum laying flat on a table. HVLP is somewhat better , lots of times we got 50-65% on flat parts. Electrostatic will GENERALLY add 10-20% on flat parts and a lot more on complex shapes. The above numbers are assuming that the painter is using proper technique and doesn't increase the air/ fluid pressures after I handed the gun to him. They ALWAYS did. Small increase in air pressure over optimal will reduce transfer by as much as 25%. But the painter likes more noise and recoil and generally they can get away with throwing away thousands of $$ in material. I wanted to know how much the weight penalty for powder coating (100% solids) one of the fuselages for the Legal Eagle I sell was so took a completed frame to one of my equipment customers and coated it. After curing it was less than ONE pound difference from uncoated. I know, not much surface area but still less than I would have thought and that wasn't my first rodeo doing that test. I still have all my test stuff ( to measure film thickness)and when I paint my rudder I'll post some numbers you can take to the bank rather than try to go in the back door relying on %of solids only. LOW&SLOW John Bolding ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:36 AM PST US From: "Scott Thatcher" Subject: Zenith-List: Polished Aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Thatcher" I'm trying to decide on having a painted 601XL or a polished one. I've used NuVite parts C and S to polish the rudder and it looks terrific but here's my question to anyone who has a polished aircraft. Has anyone used a Clear Top Coat (Loehle or any other manufacturer) on polished aluminum and what has been the long term effects? Thanks for any info... Scott Thatcher 601XL with Corvair. Working on Fuselage. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:36 AM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" Yes, my performance numbers are published in the archives. For reference, I'll reiterate: Corvair, 164 cubic inch, front start, WW conversion, Elison EFS-3A Carb Warp Drive Prop, Set to 8.5 degrees Empty Weight: 777 pounds Gross Weight: 1320 pounds Cruise Speed: 125 mph, 3100 rpm, Std atmospheric conditions, gross weight Fuel Burn: 5.5 gph Other factors: nose wheel, no wheel pants, no brake line fairings, no fairing on the steps Climb: 1200 fpm This is the first set-up I've tried. I want to put on wheel pants and fairings this winter, as well as change the prop pitch a little. The climb performance is overwhelming, but I believe it is robbing me of top end performance. I am also interested in using an Sensenich wood prop, but I don't know when that will happen. Paul, In order to do a true test you would have to have two similarly equiped planes under the same conditions. (I thought that was understood, but perhaps not). So, in the absence of doing a full series of tests, like EAA publishes frequently, most people accept "bench" tests, like dynamometer tests to compare horsepower. It is much easier to keep test conditions the same. If you are unwilling to do the testing yourself (which I would LOVE to see) you can review William Wynne's comparison to the O-200 on his dyno. It's is on flycorvair.com. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey >From: craig@craigandjean.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: craig@craigandjean.com > >There is no need to speculate about the relative in-the-air performance of >these two engines. Phil Maxson's 601XL/Corvair is flying and I believe he >has published some performance numbers. Anyone flying behind a 3300 can >publish their numbers and we can compare. The atmospheric conditions won't >be identical but they should be close enough for a useful comparison to be >made. > >-- Craig ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:07 AM PST US From: "Geoff Heap" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" Thanks for replying Ben and Tom. I need the height of the assembly as viewed from the pilot seat. (The length of the aluminum base fitting). The 701 has a Z stiffener on the firewall that I dont want to mess with. It's structural. I have 8.85 available from the floor up to the inside of the Z. See attached pic (size 335 kb). If I can squeeze them in Id like to fit them. Thanks for your timeGeoff I'm having a problem attaching my pic but I think you get the idea. The "Z" stiffener runs left to right at the top of the steering slots. do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51484#51484 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:16 AM PST US From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Polished Aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren Scott: I spent about 50 hours initially polishing our 601HDS with NuVite but only about an hour a year after that. I did not clear coat it or do anything other than wiping the leading edges down with a soaked towel after each flight. I would follow that with a dry cloth to restore the gleam. The post-flight wipe down took about 5 minutes each time. While the aircraft was hangared for the four years we flew it, I was very impressed with the long-lasting NuVite polish. I would see no benefit or reason to clear coat it. The downside to the polish is the decreased visibility it provides. I plan to paint my 701 so it increases the chances other aircraft will see me. Stan 601 HDS (sold) 701 building On Aug 1, 2006, at 6:38 AM, Scott Thatcher wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Thatcher" > > > I'm trying to decide on having a painted 601XL or a polished one. > I've used > NuVite parts C and S to polish the rudder and it looks terrific but > here's > my question to anyone who has a polished aircraft. > > Has anyone used a Clear Top Coat (Loehle or any other manufacturer) on > polished aluminum and what has been the long term effects? > > Thanks for any info... > > Scott Thatcher > 601XL with Corvair. Working on Fuselage. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:35 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Phil, Thanks for publishing your numbers. I couldn't tell if you did your flight testing at gross weight. Is this the case, or was this testing done with no passenger? Your climb numbers are better than the ones published for the Lycoming engine on ZAC's web site, but your cruise speed is somewhat slower. I presume the numbers on ZAC's site are results of testing at full gross weight, but I can't be sure that is the case. It is not surprising that the conversion engine you have might not perform as well as the Lycoming engine. You quoted your displacement at 164 cu. in. while the Lycoming displacement is 235 cu. in. This difference alone is enough to suspect the Lycoming engine might produce more power. I am sorry I don't agree with you about bench testing engines being a valid way to measure their performance. It seems possible to me that an engine that is poorly integrated in an airplane (as might be at risk when putting an automobile engine in an airplane) would not translate bench performance to flight performance. I suspect the bench testing and particularly the dynamometer testing are designed to test engines for application in automobiles. Even if the bench testing were completely valid and appropriate, the issues of engine weight, installation location with regard to aircraft CG, propeller choice, and of course aircraft rigging all play into the final aircraft performance. I agree the bench testing is appropriate to determine the success of the conversion process, but it is only the flight performance of the final product that seems appropriate to me for the purpose of selecting a power plant for a plane. I agree with you about needing similarly equipped planes for a truly valid comparison. Rather than one plane with each engine installation, I would prefer many planes. That way the variations in each plane could be averaged out. Best regards, Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 06:59 AM 8/1/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" > >Yes, my performance numbers are published in the archives. For >reference, I'll reiterate: > >Corvair, 164 cubic inch, front start, WW conversion, Elison EFS-3A Carb >Warp Drive Prop, Set to 8.5 degrees >Empty Weight: 777 pounds >Gross Weight: 1320 pounds > >Cruise Speed: 125 mph, 3100 rpm, Std atmospheric conditions, gross weight >Fuel Burn: 5.5 gph >Other factors: nose wheel, no wheel pants, no brake line fairings, >no fairing on the steps >Climb: 1200 fpm > >This is the first set-up I've tried. I want to put on wheel pants >and fairings this winter, as well as change the prop pitch a >little. The climb performance is overwhelming, but I believe it is >robbing me of top end performance. I am also interested in using an >Sensenich wood prop, but I don't know when that will happen. > >Paul, > >In order to do a true test you would have to have two similarly >equiped planes under the same conditions. (I thought that was >understood, but perhaps not). So, in the absence of doing a full >series of tests, like EAA publishes frequently, most people accept >"bench" tests, like dynamometer tests to compare horsepower. It is >much easier to keep test conditions the same. If you are unwilling >to do the testing yourself (which I would LOVE to see) you can >review William Wynne's comparison to the O-200 on his dyno. >It's is on flycorvair.com. > > >Phil Maxson >601XL/Corvair >Northwest New Jersey > > >>From: craig@craigandjean.com >>Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL >> >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: craig@craigandjean.com >> >>There is no need to speculate about the relative in-the-air >>performance of these two engines. Phil Maxson's 601XL/Corvair is >>flying and I believe he has published some performance numbers. >>Anyone flying behind a 3300 can publish their numbers and we can >>compare. The atmospheric conditions won't be identical but they >>should be close enough for a useful comparison to be made. >> >>-- Craig > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:29 AM PST US From: Tom Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom Henderson Paul, I'm afraid you may be disappointed if you're expecting to get a cruise speed much higher than 125 mph from a Lycoming. Especially without wheel pants or fairings. Chris designs great little airplanes, but his numbers are a bit skewed. All of them, in almost every area, are definitely on the optimistic side (time to build, cruise speed, Load Factor). Take some time and check out a few of the builders' web sites for their numbers. You'll find a few that hit the published numbers, but only after a fair amount of clean up and fairing. Tom Henderson 601XL Fuselage in process Do Not Archive Paul Mulwitz wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > Hi Phil, > > Thanks for publishing your numbers. > > I couldn't tell if you did your flight testing at gross weight. Is > this the case, or was this testing done with no passenger? > > Your climb numbers are better than the ones published for the Lycoming > engine on ZAC's web site, but your cruise speed is somewhat slower. I > presume the numbers on ZAC's site are results of testing at full gross > weight, but I can't be sure that is the case. > > It is not surprising that the conversion engine you have might not > perform as well as the Lycoming engine. You quoted your displacement > at 164 cu. in. while the Lycoming displacement is 235 cu. in. This > difference alone is enough to suspect the Lycoming engine might > produce more power. > > I am sorry I don't agree with you about bench testing engines being a > valid way to measure their performance. It seems possible to me that > an engine that is poorly integrated in an airplane (as might be at > risk when putting an automobile engine in an airplane) would not > translate bench performance to flight performance. I suspect the > bench testing and particularly the dynamometer testing are designed to > test engines for application in automobiles. Even if the bench > testing were completely valid and appropriate, the issues of engine > weight, installation location with regard to aircraft CG, propeller > choice, and of course aircraft rigging all play into the final > aircraft performance. I agree the bench testing is appropriate to > determine the success of the conversion process, but it is only the > flight performance of the final product that seems appropriate to me > for the purpose of selecting a power plant for a plane. > > I agree with you about needing similarly equipped planes for a truly > valid comparison. Rather than one plane with each engine > installation, I would prefer many planes. That way the variations in > each plane could be averaged out. > > Best regards, > > Paul > XL fuselage > do not archive > > > At 06:59 AM 8/1/2006, you wrote: > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" >> >> Yes, my performance numbers are published in the archives. For >> reference, I'll reiterate: >> >> Corvair, 164 cubic inch, front start, WW conversion, Elison EFS-3A Carb >> Warp Drive Prop, Set to 8.5 degrees >> Empty Weight: 777 pounds >> Gross Weight: 1320 pounds >> >> Cruise Speed: 125 mph, 3100 rpm, Std atmospheric conditions, gross >> weight >> Fuel Burn: 5.5 gph >> Other factors: nose wheel, no wheel pants, no brake line fairings, no >> fairing on the steps >> Climb: 1200 fpm >> >> This is the first set-up I've tried. I want to put on wheel pants >> and fairings this winter, as well as change the prop pitch a little. >> The climb performance is overwhelming, but I believe it is robbing me >> of top end performance. I am also interested in using an Sensenich >> wood prop, but I don't know when that will happen. >> >> Paul, >> >> In order to do a true test you would have to have two similarly >> equiped planes under the same conditions. (I thought that was >> understood, but perhaps not). So, in the absence of doing a full >> series of tests, like EAA publishes frequently, most people accept >> "bench" tests, like dynamometer tests to compare horsepower. It is >> much easier to keep test conditions the same. If you are unwilling >> to do the testing yourself (which I would LOVE to see) you can review >> William Wynne's comparison to the O-200 on his dyno. >> It's is on flycorvair.com. >> >> >> Phil Maxson >> 601XL/Corvair >> Northwest New Jersey >> >> >>> From: craig@craigandjean.com >>> Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL >>> >>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: craig@craigandjean.com >>> >>> There is no need to speculate about the relative in-the-air >>> performance of these two engines. Phil Maxson's 601XL/Corvair is >>> flying and I believe he has published some performance numbers. >>> Anyone flying behind a 3300 can publish their numbers and we can >>> compare. The atmospheric conditions won't be identical but they >>> should be close enough for a useful comparison to be made. >>> >>> -- Craig >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > --------------------------------------------- > Paul Mulwitz > 32013 NE Dial Road > Camas, WA 98607 > --------------------------------------------- > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:18 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Polished Aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> For those who have been there, would 1/2 lb of Nuvite C and 1/2 lb. of S be appropriate for a 601? And is there any reasonable alternative to the Cyclo 5 polisher for final finishing? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:00 AM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren > > Scott: > > I spent about 50 hours initially polishing our 601HDS with NuVite but > only about an hour a year after that. I did not clear coat it or do > anything other than wiping the leading edges down with a soaked towel > after each flight. I would follow that with a dry cloth to restore the > gleam. The post-flight wipe down took about 5 minutes each time. > > While the aircraft was hangared for the four years we flew it, I was > very impressed with the long-lasting NuVite polish. I would see no > benefit or reason to clear coat it. > > The downside to the polish is the decreased visibility it provides. I > plan to paint my 701 so it increases the chances other aircraft will see > me. > > Stan > 601 HDS (sold) > 701 building ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:53 AM PST US From: TYA2 Subject: Zenith-List: Speed & Zeniths: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: TYA2 There is one thing consistent with Chris Heinz designs. They are SLOW! I certainly find that the case with CH2000. I have the high compression 0-235 and this aeroplane is aerodynamic compared to some of his designs but it is 90 knots at 2600 RPM and 25 litres an hour at that power setting. I just flew 27 hours going from Nashua NH to NW Alberta so I have pretty solid data. The CH2000 airplane on the same power as a AA-1 Aircraft is about 10 to 15 mph slower. The fuel consumption of 25 liters an hour works out to 7.5 gph not the 5.5 gph I was led to believe was the fuel burn. I can say that cruising at 2300 rpms the airplane won't maintain altitude. With the price of avgas at $4.60 US a gallon and $1.60 a litre Canadian, choice of an engine based upon grade of gas used and fuel flow would be wise. From being a member of the Jabiru list I can see there have been issues of over optimism on the power put out by the J2200, certainly engine owners spent a great deal of time fiddling with the engine. Stuff lycoming owners weren't required to do. When choosing an engine think about how you will fly the plane. Short out and returns to home base, or long cross countries. If you are doing lots of out and return an exotic engine works. For long cross country flying you won't have the luxury of prowling junk yards or looking for parts when you break down in Podunk Nebraska or Armpit Alberta. Sometimes there is a convenience factor in a factory built aircraft engine. I flew a BD-4 at 170 mph for 1200 hours all over North America over 17 years. I know what out of town break downs feel like. The problem was not the engine in the BD-4. It was mickey mouse tail wheels used a nose wheel and a few other similar such airframe parts (broken doors requiring welding) because of poorly designed hinges and latches. The ability to use auto gas is a cost saver when operating from home base but the more cross country flying you do will cause you to quickly discover the unavailability of avfuels other than 100 LL away from home base. I consider both the Jabiru 3300 and the Corvair to be exotic engines with limited support away from your home field. I am not saying anything negative about their performance or constuction just don't expect to walk into a hanger anywhere and buy parts off the shelf. If you sell your plane there is the downside of the new owner having a very steep learning curve to get up to speed on your engine and its operation and maintenance. If general aviation mechanics are reluctant to work on home built aircraft, they are even more reluctant to work on exotic engines. Good luck in your engine choices Rocky CH2000 At 08:32 AM 8/1/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom Henderson > > Paul, I'm afraid you may be disappointed if you're expecting to get a > cruise speed much higher than 125 mph from a Lycoming. Especially > without wheel pants or fairings. Chris designs great little airplanes, > but his numbers are a bit skewed. All of them, in almost every area, are > definitely on the optimistic side (time to build, cruise speed, Load Factor). > Take some time and check out a few of the builders' web sites for > their numbers. You'll find a few that hit the published numbers, but > only after a fair amount of clean up and fairing. > Tom Henderson > 601XL Fuselage in process > > >Do Not Archive > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:44 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland John, You've put forward good points, and I'm looking forward to your data. I purchased my paint on the basis of an aircraft having 650 square feet over all. This might include a little extra, but I did measure the thickness of prime and finish coated inspection plates and found .002 to .0025 paint thickness. 650 square feet x 144 square inches = 93600 square inches x .0025 inch thickness as worst case and I have 234 cubic inches. There's 231 cubic inches in a gallon, so one might have the weight of a gallon of paint on a 601HDS with pants, fairings and all not counting trim which adds an extra 5 to 10 percent. I bought two gallons of base coat, one gallon of trim and a gallon and a half of primer. I'll have to let you know how accurate it all was by the time I get it done. Larry McFarland - 601HDS and painting since April..........at www.macsmachine.com. John Bolding wrote: > > I still have all my test stuff ( to measure film thickness)and when I > paint my rudder I'll post some numbers you can take to the bank rather > than try to go in the back door relying on %of solids only. > LOW&SLOW John Bolding ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:03 AM PST US From: "don wentz" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Speed & Zeniths --> Zenith-List message posted by: "don wentz" Gang, Rocky and Paul are right, a given airframe will only go so fast. More power may make a very small difference, but may cost weight, payload, time and effort, reliability, safety, cost, fuel burn, etc. I fly an RV-6, 12 years now, and I have seen so many RV builders waste so much time and money trying to make their RVs faster than the next one. It just doesn't work - an RV wing is only so fast, no matter what. The Zenith has qualities that led you to choose it as a project, embrace those qualities and build a clean, reliable, fun aircraft that will give the most hours of trouble-free flying that you can get. Note that this is not a comment on one engine over another, I have NO experience with any engine other than an O-360 Lycoming. I will say that I did some non-standard things with my Lyc install that have added cost, complexity, time, and sometimes less reliable operation. If I were to build again, I would go block-stock, factory induction, reliability and low maintenance above all else, because I have seen that high comp pistons, etc., do not fit in the long-term picture, 'for me'. BTW - 2 years ago returning from Osh, we stopped at Helena for fuel in our RVs. As we were taxiing out, we heard one of the Zenith listers call in from about 25 miles out. He did a much quicker stop and we heard him leave as well. Because my traveling partner likes to fly at full speed at altitude, but is so slow at fuel stops (wipe down the airframe, check wx forever, etc.), I think the Zenith 601 beat us back to Portland that day! Bottom line, with the price of fuel going up rapidly, I think reliable economy beats-out top speed most days. Especially when the bulk of our flying is not 'cross country'. Of course, if 'experimenting' is high on your list of what your project goals are, then it may not matter. I'm just offering some advice based on watching futile top speed chasing for a long time. Dw RV-6 1000hrs -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TYA2 Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:18 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: TYA2 There is one thing consistent with Chris Heinz designs. They are SLOW! I certainly find that the case with CH2000. I have the high compression 0-235 and this aeroplane is aerodynamic compared to some of his designs but it is 90 knots at 2600 RPM and 25 litres an hour at that power setting. I just flew 27 hours going from Nashua NH to NW Alberta so I have pretty solid data. The CH2000 airplane on the same power as a AA-1 Aircraft is about 10 to 15 mph slower. The fuel consumption of 25 liters an hour works out to 7.5 gph not the 5.5 gph I was led to believe was the fuel burn. I can say that cruising at 2300 rpms the airplane won't maintain altitude. With the price of avgas at $4.60 US a gallon and $1.60 a litre Canadian, choice of an engine based upon grade of gas used and fuel flow would be wise. From being a member of the Jabiru list I can see there have been issues of over optimism on the power put out by the J2200, certainly engine owners spent a great deal of time fiddling with the engine. Stuff lycoming owners weren't required to do. When choosing an engine think about how you will fly the plane. Short out and returns to home base, or long cross countries. If you are doing lots of out and return an exotic engine works. For long cross country flying you won't have the luxury of prowling junk yards or looking for parts when you break down in Podunk Nebraska or Armpit Alberta. Sometimes there is a convenience factor in a factory built aircraft engine. I flew a BD-4 at 170 mph for 1200 hours all over North America over 17 years. I know what out of town break downs feel like. The problem was not the engine in the BD-4. It was mickey mouse tail wheels used a nose wheel and a few other similar such airframe parts (broken doors requiring welding) because of poorly designed hinges and latches. The ability to use auto gas is a cost saver when operating from home base but the more cross country flying you do will cause you to quickly discover the unavailability of avfuels other than 100 LL away from home base. I consider both the Jabiru 3300 and the Corvair to be exotic engines with limited support away from your home field. I am not saying anything negative about their performance or constuction just don't expect to walk into a hanger anywhere and buy parts off the shelf. If you sell your plane there is the downside of the new owner having a very steep learning curve to get up to speed on your engine and its operation and maintenance. If general aviation mechanics are reluctant to work on home built aircraft, they are even more reluctant to work on exotic engines. Good luck in your engine choices Rocky CH2000 At 08:32 AM 8/1/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom Henderson > > Paul, I'm afraid you may be disappointed if you're expecting to get a > cruise speed much higher than 125 mph from a Lycoming. Especially > without wheel pants or fairings. Chris designs great little airplanes, > but his numbers are a bit skewed. All of them, in almost every area, are > definitely on the optimistic side (time to build, cruise speed, Load Factor). > Take some time and check out a few of the builders' web sites for > their numbers. You'll find a few that hit the published numbers, but > only after a fair amount of clean up and fairing. > Tom Henderson > 601XL Fuselage in process > > >Do Not Archive > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:23 AM PST US From: "Randy Bryant" Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: RE: Zenith-List: Speed & Zeniths --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" Very well said. Randy XL -Wings - Plans Only http://www.n344rb.com Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:57 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "don wentz" > > Gang, > Rocky and Paul are right, a given airframe will only go so fast. More > power > may make a very small difference, but may cost weight, payload, time and > effort, reliability, safety, cost, fuel burn, etc. > > I fly an RV-6, 12 years now, and I have seen so many RV builders waste so > much time and money trying to make their RVs faster than the next one. It > just doesn't work - an RV wing is only so fast, no matter what. > > The Zenith has qualities that led you to choose it as a project, embrace > those qualities and build a clean, reliable, fun aircraft that will give > the > most hours of trouble-free flying that you can get. > > Note that this is not a comment on one engine over another, I have NO > experience with any engine other than an O-360 Lycoming. I will say that > I > did some non-standard things with my Lyc install that have added cost, > complexity, time, and sometimes less reliable operation. If I were to > build > again, I would go block-stock, factory induction, reliability and low > maintenance above all else, because I have seen that high comp pistons, > etc., do not fit in the long-term picture, 'for me'. > > BTW - 2 years ago returning from Osh, we stopped at Helena for fuel in our > RVs. As we were taxiing out, we heard one of the Zenith listers call in > from about 25 miles out. He did a much quicker stop and we heard him > leave > as well. Because my traveling partner likes to fly at full speed at > altitude, but is so slow at fuel stops (wipe down the airframe, check wx > forever, etc.), I think the Zenith 601 beat us back to Portland that day! > > Bottom line, with the price of fuel going up rapidly, I think reliable > economy beats-out top speed most days. Especially when the bulk of our > flying is not 'cross country'. > > Of course, if 'experimenting' is high on your list of what your project > goals are, then it may not matter. I'm just offering some advice based on > watching futile top speed chasing for a long time. > Dw > RV-6 1000hrs > > > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TYA2 > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:18 AM > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: TYA2 > > There is one thing consistent with Chris Heinz designs. They are > SLOW! I certainly find that the case with CH2000. I have the high > compression 0-235 and this aeroplane is aerodynamic compared to some of > his > designs but it is 90 knots at 2600 RPM and 25 litres an hour at that power > setting. I just flew 27 hours going from Nashua NH to NW Alberta so I > have pretty solid data. The CH2000 airplane on the same power as a AA-1 > Aircraft is about 10 to 15 mph slower. The fuel consumption of 25 > liters > an hour works out to 7.5 gph not the 5.5 gph I was led to believe was the > fuel burn. I can say that cruising at 2300 rpms the airplane won't > maintain altitude. > > With the price of avgas at $4.60 US a gallon and $1.60 a litre Canadian, > choice of an engine based upon grade of gas used and fuel flow would be > wise. From being a member of the Jabiru list I can see there have been > issues of over optimism on the power put out by the J2200, certainly > engine > owners spent a great deal of time fiddling with the engine. Stuff > lycoming owners weren't required to do. When choosing an engine think > about how you will fly the plane. Short out and returns to home base, or > long cross countries. If you are doing lots of out and return an exotic > engine works. For long cross country flying you won't have the luxury of > prowling junk yards or looking for parts when you break down in Podunk > Nebraska or Armpit Alberta. Sometimes there is a convenience factor in a > factory built aircraft engine. I flew a BD-4 at 170 mph for 1200 hours > all over North America over 17 years. I know what out of town break > downs > feel like. The problem was not the engine in the BD-4. It was mickey > mouse tail wheels used a nose wheel and a few other similar such airframe > parts (broken doors requiring welding) because of poorly designed hinges > and latches. > > The ability to use auto gas is a cost saver when operating from home base > but the more cross country flying you do will cause you to quickly > discover > the unavailability of avfuels other than 100 LL away from home base. > > I consider both the Jabiru 3300 and the Corvair to be exotic engines with > limited support away from your home field. I am not saying anything > negative about their performance or constuction just don't expect to walk > into a hanger anywhere and buy parts off the shelf. If you sell your plane > there is the downside of the new owner having a very steep learning curve > to get up to speed on your engine and its operation and maintenance. If > general aviation mechanics are reluctant to work on home built aircraft, > they are even more reluctant to work on exotic engines. > > Good luck in your engine choices > > Rocky > CH2000 > > At 08:32 AM 8/1/2006 -0700, you wrote: >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom Henderson > >> >> Paul, I'm afraid you may be disappointed if you're expecting to get a >> cruise speed much higher than 125 mph from a Lycoming. Especially >> without wheel pants or fairings. Chris designs great little airplanes, >> but his numbers are a bit skewed. All of them, in almost every area, are >> definitely on the optimistic side (time to build, cruise speed, Load > Factor). >> Take some time and check out a few of the builders' web sites for >> their numbers. You'll find a few that hit the published numbers, but >> only after a fair amount of clean up and fairing. >> Tom Henderson >> 601XL Fuselage in process >> >> >>Do Not Archive >> > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:24 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Speed & Zeniths --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Wow! I am truly impressed that anyone could get 1000 hours on an RV-6. I don't mean any criticism of the RV-6, just the notion that a home built plane could get that many hours is really something from my perspective. I agree that more power doesn't always translate to more speed. I think it is a matter of how much of the potential speed in the airframe design you are comparing. While it is tempting to consider all Zodiacs as the same, this is certainly not true. Different versions of the Zodiac have considerably different wings and the XL even has a larger and heavier fuselage. The maximum speed that is reasonable to expect from each of the different Zodiac models is quite different. I do agree that there is a reasonable maximum speed for any particular model. When you add power after reaching that point you still get performance increases - just not in the speed arena. I believe each additional unit of power translates into additional climb capability as well as a small increase in weight lifting capability. Of course, additional weight is a real problem when considering ultimate loading on the airframe so this should not be considered lightly. I live in an area surrounded by very large hills and even mountains. I want my plane to climb well so I don't have to perform miracles to get over the hills. I would use a much larger plane with really high performance if not for the fact I don't have a medical certificate. My current situation limits me to LSA compatible planes, but that doesn't really limit climb performance. I believe it is possible to have a plane that has really impressive climb and cruise performance and still be economical on fuel consumption. The trick is to control how you fly the plane to get which ever extreme you want for a particular flight. Fuel economy can be maximized with good leaning, high cruise altitudes, and low throttle settings. For the most part, this is true no matter which engine you have installed. I have not really considered the issue of engine maintenance at remote locations. I guess I would like to hear more stories about this issue. Hopefully, all of these engines are reliable enough that engine failures that call for immediate maintenance would be rare indeed. Good luck with your RV-6. I hope it is still going when you hit 2000 hours. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >Gang, >Rocky and Paul are right, a given airframe will only go so fast. More power >may make a very small difference, but may cost weight, payload, time and >effort, reliability, safety, cost, fuel burn, etc. > >I fly an RV-6, 12 years now, and I have seen so many RV builders waste so >much time and money trying to make their RVs faster than the next one. It >just doesn't work - an RV wing is only so fast, no matter what. > >The Zenith has qualities that led you to choose it as a project, embrace >those qualities and build a clean, reliable, fun aircraft that will give the >most hours of trouble-free flying that you can get. > >Note that this is not a comment on one engine over another, I have NO >experience with any engine other than an O-360 Lycoming. I will say that I >did some non-standard things with my Lyc install that have added cost, >complexity, time, and sometimes less reliable operation. If I were to build >again, I would go block-stock, factory induction, reliability and low >maintenance above all else, because I have seen that high comp pistons, >etc., do not fit in the long-term picture, 'for me'. > >BTW - 2 years ago returning from Osh, we stopped at Helena for fuel in our >RVs. As we were taxiing out, we heard one of the Zenith listers call in >from about 25 miles out. He did a much quicker stop and we heard him leave >as well. Because my traveling partner likes to fly at full speed at >altitude, but is so slow at fuel stops (wipe down the airframe, check wx >forever, etc.), I think the Zenith 601 beat us back to Portland that day! > >Bottom line, with the price of fuel going up rapidly, I think reliable >economy beats-out top speed most days. Especially when the bulk of our >flying is not 'cross country'. > >Of course, if 'experimenting' is high on your list of what your project >goals are, then it may not matter. I'm just offering some advice based on >watching futile top speed chasing for a long time. >Dw >RV-6 1000hrs - ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:01 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Speed & Zeniths: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hey now - I was in Podunk, Nebraska yesterday and they had a fine assortment of aircraft & automobile parts AND a welding shop. Scott(DO NOT ARCHIVE)Laughlin Omaha, Nebraska http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ Working on Engine Cowl --- TYA2 wrote: ...... For long cross country flying you won't have the luxury of prowling junk yards or looking for parts when you break down in Podunk Nebraska or __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:44 AM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Speed & Zeniths --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Hi; I know of 3 CH-601s in Ontario, Cdn that have over 1000 hours. All Rotax912s. Mike UHS Spinners Paul Mulwitz wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > Wow! I am truly impressed that anyone could get 1000 hours on an RV-6. > I don't mean any criticism of the RV-6, just the notion that a home > built plane could get that many hours is really something from my > perspective. > > I agree that more power doesn't always translate to more speed. I think > it is a matter of how much of the potential speed in the airframe design > you are comparing. While it is tempting to consider all Zodiacs as the > same, this is certainly not true. Different versions of the Zodiac have > considerably different wings and the XL even has a larger and heavier > fuselage. The maximum speed that is reasonable to expect from each of > the different Zodiac models is quite different. > > I do agree that there is a reasonable maximum speed for any particular > model. When you add power after reaching that point you still get > performance increases - just not in the speed arena. I believe each > additional unit of power translates into additional climb capability as > well as a small increase in weight lifting capability. Of course, > additional weight is a real problem when considering ultimate loading on > the airframe so this should not be considered lightly. > > I live in an area surrounded by very large hills and even mountains. I > want my plane to climb well so I don't have to perform miracles to get > over the hills. I would use a much larger plane with really high > performance if not for the fact I don't have a medical certificate. My > current situation limits me to LSA compatible planes, but that doesn't > really limit climb performance. > > I believe it is possible to have a plane that has really impressive > climb and cruise performance and still be economical on fuel > consumption. The trick is to control how you fly the plane to get which > ever extreme you want for a particular flight. Fuel economy can be > maximized with good leaning, high cruise altitudes, and low throttle > settings. For the most part, this is true no matter which engine you > have installed. > > I have not really considered the issue of engine maintenance at remote > locations. I guess I would like to hear more stories about this issue. > Hopefully, all of these engines are reliable enough that engine failures > that call for immediate maintenance would be rare indeed. > > Good luck with your RV-6. I hope it is still going when you hit 2000 > hours. > > Paul > XL fuselage > do not archive > > > > >> Gang, >> Rocky and Paul are right, a given airframe will only go so fast. More >> power >> may make a very small difference, but may cost weight, payload, time and >> effort, reliability, safety, cost, fuel burn, etc. >> >> I fly an RV-6, 12 years now, and I have seen so many RV builders waste so >> much time and money trying to make their RVs faster than the next >> one. It >> just doesn't work - an RV wing is only so fast, no matter what. >> >> The Zenith has qualities that led you to choose it as a project, embrace >> those qualities and build a clean, reliable, fun aircraft that will >> give the >> most hours of trouble-free flying that you can get. >> >> Note that this is not a comment on one engine over another, I have NO >> experience with any engine other than an O-360 Lycoming. I will say >> that I >> did some non-standard things with my Lyc install that have added cost, >> complexity, time, and sometimes less reliable operation. If I were to >> build >> again, I would go block-stock, factory induction, reliability and low >> maintenance above all else, because I have seen that high comp pistons, >> etc., do not fit in the long-term picture, 'for me'. >> >> BTW - 2 years ago returning from Osh, we stopped at Helena for fuel in >> our >> RVs. As we were taxiing out, we heard one of the Zenith listers call in >> from about 25 miles out. He did a much quicker stop and we heard him >> leave >> as well. Because my traveling partner likes to fly at full speed at >> altitude, but is so slow at fuel stops (wipe down the airframe, check wx >> forever, etc.), I think the Zenith 601 beat us back to Portland that day! >> >> Bottom line, with the price of fuel going up rapidly, I think reliable >> economy beats-out top speed most days. Especially when the bulk of our >> flying is not 'cross country'. >> >> Of course, if 'experimenting' is high on your list of what your project >> goals are, then it may not matter. I'm just offering some advice >> based on >> watching futile top speed chasing for a long time. >> Dw >> RV-6 1000hrs > > > - > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:01 AM PST US From: "Gig Giacona" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I've only found one spot in the flycorvair.com site that quotes a speed on WW's 601XL. Here's the quote: > Straight and level, the plane did 130mph at 23" MAP and 2700rpm. This is a low cruise power setting. Keep in mind, the plane has 6x6 tires, no gear leg fairings, no wheel pants, etc. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51568#51568 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:21 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Zenith-List: 801 Tail Height Who can tell me what the actual height of the vertical fin is on with the plane on it's landing gear? Trying to figure out if it will fit in the shop. Dave in Salem 801 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:15 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 Tail Height According to the Zenith web site, the hight is ten feet even. On Aug 1, 2006, at 3:07 PM, Dave Ruddiman wrote: > Who can tell me what the actual height of the vertical fin is on > with the plane on it's landing gear? Trying to figure out if it > will fit in the shop. > > Dave in Salem > 801 > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:48 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 Tail Height --> Zenith-List message posted by: But if you put a really nice coat of paint on it, the tail will sag lower under the immense weight. Ed Moody II Do Not Archive ---- Bryan Martin wrote: > According to the Zenith web site, the hight is ten feet even. > > > On Aug 1, 2006, at 3:07 PM, Dave Ruddiman wrote: > > > Who can tell me what the actual height of the vertical fin is on > > with the plane on it's landing gear?> > Dave in Salem > > 801 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:52 PM PST US From: Tom Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 Tail Height --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:07 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Tail Height? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith What position is she to assume for the measurement? Or maybe I mis-read that...should it have been TALE height? There HAVE been some tales associated with this List, ScotchBrites among the Top Ten Most Abused. DO NOT ARCHIVE A cheery day to all......and it is STILL 100 degrees F in north Texas! Zed ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:15 PM PST US From: "David X" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" The cringe factor comes from the bad rap given home builders because of an incautious few. The guy who popped in the Subaru engine from his car he crashed last year, for example. It makes the rest look bad ... like their all crazy and out to kill everyone (because many inevitably crash). I've seen some Honda conversions, for example, with a backup fuel pump, and dual electronic ignition ... but only one set of plugs and one carb and no track record running 100LL. The engine was modified to provide some amount of added safety, which goes part way toward making it a "real" aircraft engine. This engine needed more development, in my opinion ... not something I'd fly. I'm glad there is a distributor behind the product working to improve it to the point that someone like me might buy it. On the other hand, I've seen Subaru conversions proven on 100LL, with dual ignition, dual set of plugs, dual carbs, carb heat, double accessory belts and a backup fuel pump. It was a kit from a reputable distributor who took the time to test every component and provide good support (according to the owner of the aircraft who built both engine and airplane). That's a setup I'd fly and have some faith in. Aviation has a long track record of safety and redundancy that aught not be thrown out the window because we're "experimenting" with new engines. I think it's great to experiment, actually ... but I cringe to see engines with no redundancy for no better reason than time and bucks. If you're going to do it, do it right or don't do it at all. leinad(at)direcway.com wrote: > Do you cringe when ever you hear about the in-flight failure of 30,000 dollar Lycoming? Do you think this doesn't happen? A while back there was a rash of broken cranks on O-360s. As I recall it forced a recall. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51607#51607 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:19 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Zenith-List: Where's Ben Hass. Ref boots for 701 steering rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> I just received a set of the Yamaha boots for use on my 601XL. The ouside dimensions of the flange are 164mm high by 105mm wide. Inside the boot, 131mm by 66mm. On my 601XL they will fit OK except that the slots, at 144mm long, are longer that the vertical boot opening. So, if the maximum vertical travel of the steering rods in the slots requires the full 144mm they won't work. Does anyone who has assembled the 601XL nose gear know how much travel range is actually required? The boots and flanges which are Yamaha #8CR-2198F-00 and 8CR-2195E-00 I got from StadiumYamaha.com for $61.23 total shipped for the two sets. Robin Bellach, Jasper, AR 601XL Zen-Vair, working on fuse ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 3:49 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" > > I'm looking for Ben Haas formerly at Benford2@aol.com or anyone who has > fitted Yamaha part # 8CR2195e to their steering rods. > I have a question regarding the dimensions of the assy. They may or may > not fit a 701. His photo in the archive looks like it may be a 601. > Thanks....Geoff ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:39 PM PST US From: Frank Stutzman Subject: Re: [SPAM? Score: 14.900] Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, David X wrote: > I've seen some Honda conversions, for example, with a backup fuel pump, > and dual electronic ignition ... but only one set of plugs and one carb > and no track record running 100LL. Other than the rotax, I can't think of any aircraft engine (not a converted auto engines) that has more than one carb. Certainly, all of the continentals and lycomings I've flown only had one. > Aviation has a long track record of safety and redundancy that aught not > be thrown out the window because we're "experimenting" with new engines. True, however, I can't help but think that some of our saftey practices are just there to make us feel good. For example: Safety wiring. We are very careful to always safety wire our oil filters, yet we never safety wire oure oil lines. Why would an oil filter loosen up any more than an oil line? Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:06 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alternitive 601 Step designs? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" Gig: I designed and installed an alternative step installation on my 601HD. Contact me off list with the location of your access door cutout to see if what I did might work for you. My step installation added 0.44lbs. Another 601 HDS builder used the steps from an RV-6 for a similar installation. The RV steps are made from streamline tubing and are swept aft somewhat. George Do not archive -- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 6:14 AM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > > Has anyone come up with an alternitive design for the entry step that doesn't have the bar that goes under the fuselage? > > When I installed my bottom access door I mis-read the plans and installed it further forward than I was supposed to. While this doesn't stop me from using the original step design it does make fairing it somewhat more complex. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51462#51462 > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:24 PM PST US From: "David X" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Weight & Balance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" For anyone trying to thumbnail the CG on an unpainted 601XL, you should plan to put the CG a little more forward of where you want it to ultimately be when the aircraft is painted and trimmed. It sounds trivial, but it's not all that trivial on this particular aircraft. As far as calculators to figure out your W&B ... by all means use one to test my math, please! The advantage of the spreadsheet, however, is that you can see the entire range of CG throughout the entire fuel burn ... not just one slice in a point in time for a particular scenario. Most aircraft will stay in CG range throughout the flight so long as you start below gross and are in CG range at the beginning of the flight. This is not true of the Zodiac using the stock mount from Zenair for the 912S (unless they changed it since). This is how I discovered that it is possible to take off in the 601XL at max gross with two big guys, half tanks and end up too far rear of CG after just 30 minutes of flight. This prompted me to move my engine forward 4 inches, even though it meant reworking all the wiring and hoses and throttle cable and cowling etc. So maybe I don't know jack shine about the weight of paint ... but I've learned more than I care to know about the W&B on the 601XL using the stock 912S motor mount from Zenair. gboothe(at)calply.com wrote: > Don't be offended. If your every word was not dissected and examined you would think you posted to the wrong list. I'm sure the silent majority will find your spreadsheet quite useful, as is. I do. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51619#51619 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:26 PM PST US From: "David X" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rotax 912 Tachometer Problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" That was it ... a busted ground wire. Thank you for the helpful replies. Float Flyr wrote: > It sure sounds like the effects of a wire chafing on a ground somewhere. NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote: > There are two wires from the tach pickup coil. One of them should be grounded and the other goes to your tach input. You can disconnect both at the connector on your engine and connect your voltmeter to both leads to check ... -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51625#51625 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:47 PM PST US From: "Eddie Seve" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G Hi Listers, Just an uninformed question on this issue; Given that most people are going to spray the entire aircraft, would this not spread the weight of the paint uniformly across the entire structure rather then just adding load to the tail plane ? I'd love to here people's thoughts on this as I am contemplating the whole painting thing at the moment. Best Regards, Eddie Seve Zodiac XL Working on the front fuselage ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:14 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tail Height? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" What ever position she wants. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:50 PM > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith > > What position is she to assume for the measurement? > > Or maybe I mis-read that...should it have been TALE height? > > There HAVE been some tales associated with this List, ScotchBrites among > the Top Ten Most Abused. > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > A cheery day to all......and it is STILL 100 degrees F in north Texas! > > Zed > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:55 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G Call me dull, but I think the un-asked question that Eddie (below) is asking is, =93What difference does it make whether you paint or not? Paint is part of the =93empty weight=94.=94 I haven=92t followed this entire string about the weight of paint whether wet or dry. You finish your plane and weigh it. If you paint it after doing wt & balance, you then need to re-weigh it. It doesn=92t matter if you coat your plane with =BD=94 of lead, it=92s still part of the =93empty weight.=94 Though a thoughtful discussion of the weight of paint as it affects performance (gross weight) might be somewhat useful if you=92re planning on racing at Reno, for our purposes it only comes into play at the initial weighing for wt & balance. Most of us will probably add more weight to our planes just by installing aileron trim, or an extra battery, or landing lights, or CD player, or 25ga skin vs. 16ga. =85 I say, =93Paint away!=94 =85.or not. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, working on wings.... Hi Listers, Just an uninformed question on this issue; Given that most people are going to spray the entire aircraft, would this not spread the weight of the paint uniformly across the entire structure rather then just adding load to the tail plane ? I=92d love to here people=92s thoughts on this as I am contemplating the whole painting thing at the moment. Best Regards, Eddie Seve Zodiac XL Working on the front fuselage ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:25 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Polished Aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" I polished my plane with Nuvite in April and it's been outside since. It has no clear coating on it. My understanding is that paint (or clear coat) doesn't stick well to slick, shiny surfaces, so I wonder how long it would last. Apparently, birds are mightily attracted to because they love to crap on and corrode the surface. I think the finish will look OK through the season looking ok, and I'll have to polish it each winter. We'll see. Just a little tip I learned from Bill Clapp who painted my plane (and finished the polishing): start with 1000 grit sand paper, and wet sand it. Follow up with 1500 grit wet sanding, and then start on the Nuvite C and S. This will go a LOT faster unless your 6061 is very shiny to start with. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey >From: "Scott Thatcher" >Subject: Zenith-List: Polished Aluminum >Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:38:55 -0400 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Thatcher" > > >I'm trying to decide on having a painted 601XL or a polished one. I've used >NuVite parts C and S to polish the rudder and it looks terrific but here's >my question to anyone who has a polished aircraft. > >Has anyone used a Clear Top Coat (Loehle or any other manufacturer) on >polished aluminum and what has been the long term effects? > >Thanks for any info... > >Scott Thatcher >601XL with Corvair. Working on Fuselage. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:24 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Zenith-List: : Weight of paint affecting the C of G Eddie: Seems to me that you might be missing the fact that the surface area behind the CG may be not only larger than in front, but that a lot of that area is farther from the CG. Probably someone has actually calculated this, but if it's been posted I missed it. Robin N601ZV, planning no paint except trim ----- Original Message ----- From: Eddie Seve To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 6:14 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G Hi Listers, Just an uninformed question on this issue; Given that most people are going to spray the entire aircraft, would this not spread the weight of the paint uniformly across the entire structure rather then just adding load to the tail plane ? I'd love to here people's thoughts on this as I am contemplating the whole painting thing at the moment. Best Regards, Eddie Seve Zodiac XL Working on the front fuselage ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:21 PM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G <<<<< I say, " =1C"Paint away!=9D .or not. >>>>>>> AMEN!!!!! ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:48 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EAA Airventure Oshkosh 2006 (Or just plain Oshkosh to most of us) Mark, I enjoyed the dinner format as it was. If possible, it might be interesting to have a builder do a builder's report, especially if their project was unique for some reason. Clearly, that would have to be arranged in advance with the builder. On the flight line not far from the ZAC display, I did notice that the Sonex community had a Builder's Hangout "building" on the flight line immediately adjacent to a row of parked Sonex aircraft. It just called their builders over to sit down, look at the planes that flew in, and do some hangar flyin'. It was there the entire week. I liked that idea. They might even have had drinks available. Jeff Davidson do not archive _____ Hello All, for those of you who were at the builders dinner, how did you like the format? Would you like to see something added? Also, once again I would like to Thank John Hinde's at www.johnsplane.com for his production of the Builders dinner meal movie. Mark Townsend -- No virus found in this incoming message. 7/28/2006 -- 7/28/2006 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:54 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 Tail Height My 801 is 10' 2 1/2" Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Dave Ruddiman" wrote: Who can tell me what the actual height of the vertical fin is on with th e plane on it's landing gear? Trying to figure out if it will fit in the shop. Dave in Salem 801 My 801 is 10' 2 1/2"


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haa spowerair.com

-- "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainti ng@comcast.net> wrote:
Who can tell me what the actual height of the vertical fin is on with the plane on it's landing gear? Trying to figure out if it will fit in the shop.
 
Dave in Salem   
801
________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:04 PM PST US From: Chris sinfield Subject: Zenith-List: Stainless steel rivets Ok guys and girls. All this talk about stainless steel firewall and rivets got me to look again at the plans.. In my XL kit is a pack of AS 5 stainless steel rivets( 23) but for the life of me I cant see where they go into .. Can some one give me a hine..?? ie plans page?? Chris Down Under.. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:25 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Polished Aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland Robin, I did my polishing with a 6 inch right angle buffer from Sears, I have found on "secret" when using Nuvite. If the aluminum is older and the surface dull take a piece of paper towel and wipe the surface to be polished with mineral spirits (paint thinner). The Nuvite especially the course F8 will spread like cream. The difference between doing the aluminum dry and with the mineral spirits is like day and night. Tim Shankland Robin Bellach wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> > > For those who have been there, would 1/2 lb of Nuvite C and 1/2 lb. of > S be appropriate for a 601? And is there any reasonable alternative to > the Cyclo 5 polisher for final finishing? > > ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:00 AM > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren >> >> Scott: >> >> I spent about 50 hours initially polishing our 601HDS with NuVite but >> only about an hour a year after that. I did not clear coat it or do >> anything other than wiping the leading edges down with a soaked towel >> after each flight. I would follow that with a dry cloth to restore >> the gleam. The post-flight wipe down took about 5 minutes each time. >> >> While the aircraft was hangared for the four years we flew it, I was >> very impressed with the long-lasting NuVite polish. I would see no >> benefit or reason to clear coat it. >> >> The downside to the polish is the decreased visibility it provides. >> I plan to paint my 701 so it increases the chances other aircraft >> will see me. >> >> Stan >> 601 HDS (sold) >> 701 building > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:48 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Stainless steel rivets I recall a few of them for the rudder pedals, if that helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris sinfield To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Stainless steel rivets Ok guys and girls. All this talk about stainless steel firewall and rivets got me to look again at the plans.. In my XL kit is a pack of AS 5 stainless steel rivets( 23) but for the life of me I cant see where they go into .. Can some one give me a hine..?? ie plans page?? Chris Down Under.. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:56 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Stainless steel rivets Chris, There are stainless steel rivets to attach the brake pedals to the rudder pedals and two in the elevator control horn assembly (in the "strap" that goes over the top, down the aft "notch" and over the bottom). Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:26 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Zenith-List: Now What? Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the shipper did it but I can't really prove it. Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks, leave it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this picture thing. I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover. Here it comes. Dave in Salem 801 (with a dented tank) ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:38 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rotax 912 Tachometer Problems David, Glad that you found and solved the problem Bob Spudis In a message dated 8/1/2006 7:10:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dxj@comcast.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" That was it ... a busted ground wire. Thank you for the helpful replies. Float Flyr wrote: > It sure sounds like the effects of a wire chafing on a ground somewhere. NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote: > There are two wires from the tach pickup coil. One of them should be grounded and the other goes to your tach input. You can disconnect both at the connector on your engine and connect your voltmeter to both leads to check ... -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51625#51625 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:16 PM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair Flight Engine for Sale Gentlemen, Well, Today, My house re-finance funded. After adding up the financial obligations that must be paid with it, I will not have enough left over to purchase my 601XL kit. I don't want to get started with partial kits and run out of money later. That would be worse than not starting at all. I like to compare relationships to the weather. My wife & I have had a few storms lately. We now have blue skies but there is still "trash in the yard" to clean up. If I did get the airplane kit, I would be even more isolated out here in my shop. That would just "put wood on the fire". Apryl is afraid of flying and I would guess that she would never fly in a plane that I built. I can understand that. Why should I spend 5 to 6 years and many $ on a project that I cannot share with my wife after it's finished? With this in mind, I am considering what to do with my Corvair engine core. I have an RH case with 3878566 heads and a 8409 crank. I have purchased and received a William Wynne oil pan & install kit, safety shaft and hybrid studs. Still on back order from William are: modified nitrided crank shaft, distributor, oil accessory case and valve covers. They are on back order because I told William to put me on the bottom of the list and service the other guys that are closer to flying first. The core engine is disassembled and partially cleaned. I have cut out and started to finish the front cover. My intention is to sell what I have. I will require the buyer to have purchased William Wynne's manual. I will also include my Chevy "green book", parts and price spreadsheet and other assorted documentation that I have accumulated. I want it to go to a good home. Best case scenario would be someone here in Southern California. I am also interested in building the engine with the buyer if they live close enough. Just for the experience, no partnership or anything like that in mind. (Maybe a ride in the fished plane) The price is negotiable and will be very fair. I will make pictures available if requested. I plan to wait a month or so before I E-Bay it. If you have anyone in mind, Please contact me off list. Someday perhaps my situation will change and I will be able to pursue my life long dream of flying a machine that I built with my own hands. I have greatly enjoyed this list and will continue to read it for now. Tomorrow, My wife & I will start building some furniture, TOGETHER. Dave Thompson dave.thompson@verizon.net Do not archive ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:07 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What? Dave, Try and get insurance to cover and Zenith to send a new one at no charge. Good luck though! I got a damaged part from them 16 months ago and have received no satisfaction - even though I paid extra for insurance and have offered to take other needed (and less expensive items) in exhcange. Almost no answer or anything from Zenith - especially Subastian. He answered one email because I "threatened" to let others know how Zenith was NOT handling this issue. His answer berated me for "threatening" to expose him and Zenith. I did learn to make sure my name is on the insurance if you pay extra for it, not the shipper. Bottom line, make an effort with Zenith. When and if they do not reply with any satisfaction, try to fix the tank you have and good luck. -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What? Dave, The picture looks small enough to me although I have a high speed server and the Telephone modem folks might think it's too large. As for the dented tank, the people that shipped it to you should be notified first I would think just to see what they are willing to do about it. They may ask you to return it to them at their expense and provide you with a replacement then deal with the shipper themselves Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Ruddiman To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Now What? Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the shipper did it but I can't really prove it. Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks, leave it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this picture thing. I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover. Here it comes. Dave in Salem 801 (with a dented tank) ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:36 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 vs. Corvair in a 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" It is also a tail-dragger. -- Craig -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:51 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I've only found one spot in the flycorvair.com site that quotes a speed on WW's 601XL. Here's the quote: > Straight and level, the plane did 130mph at 23" MAP and 2700rpm. This is a low cruise power setting. Keep in mind, the plane has 6x6 tires, no gear leg fairings, no wheel pants, etc. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51568#51568 ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:40 PM PST US From: "David X" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Weight of paint affecting the C of G --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David X" I confess that I started this thread about paint ... and boy am I sorry I did. Some people just love to argue. Yes, it affects CG ... but PAINT IT! :lol: 601zv(at)ritternet.com wrote: > Eddie: Seems to me that you might be missing the fact that0 the surface area behind the CG may be not only larger than in front, but that a0 lot of that area is farther from the CG. Probably someone has actually0 calculated this, but if it's been posted I missed it. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51695#51695 ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:38 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What? Bob, I sent ZAC an email and the same picture I posted here. I don't really expect anything, but, who knows. I'll wait and see what happens, then probably take it to a friend who is a metal expert and let him pound on it. It's an outboard auxiliary tank that may not get used much, and the dent probably will be negligible on the fuel, but I hate having something that is brand new get screwed up before I even use it. Thanks for the replies from everyone. Dave in Salem 801 with the dented tank ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Stone To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:16 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What? Dave, The picture looks small enough to me although I have a high speed server and the Telephone modem folks might think it's too large. As for the dented tank, the people that shipped it to you should be notified first I would think just to see what they are willing to do about it. They may ask you to return it to them at their expense and provide you with a replacement then deal with the shipper themselves Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx Zodiac XL (Not too far along) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Ruddiman To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Now What? Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the shipper did it but I can't really prove it. Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks, leave it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this picture thing. I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover. Here it comes. Dave in Salem 801 (with a dented tank) ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:32 PM PST US From: doug kandle Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Seat Belt Bracket --> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle When I position my seat belt bracket (7F16-3) on the center tunnel, it appears higher than the picture shown in the assembly guide. I've measured everything several times and the bolt is 180mm from the floor (just as the side bracket 7F16-2). Did anyone else notice this? My central seat belt attachment will be just below the top of the runnel if I mount it where I think it should be located. I've sent off an email to Zenith with pictures, but I think they may be behind due to Oshkosh. Doug Kandle CH701 Boise ID All Airfoils complete, Finishing forward fuselage From complete kit ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:01 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Zenith-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Zenith-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Zenith-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: zenith-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "zenith-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Zenith-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Zenith-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/zenith-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Zenith-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Zenith-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Zenith-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Zenith-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Zenith ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:34 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines --> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.]