Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:21 AM - Re: 701 Seat Belt Bracket (Gordon)
2. 04:18 AM - Re: Now What? (Jean-Paul Roy)
3. 04:47 AM - Re: 701 Seat Belt Bracket (Geoff Heap)
4. 05:52 AM - Re: Now What? (n801bh@netzero.com)
5. 05:53 AM - Great service from UHS (Michel Therrien)
6. 06:08 AM - Re: Alternitive 601 Step designs? (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
7. 06:33 AM - Re: Now What? (Dave Ruddiman)
8. 06:33 AM - Re: Now What? (Dave Ruddiman)
9. 07:04 AM - Re: Now What? ()
10. 08:22 AM - receiving shipments - was Now What? (David Barth)
11. 08:47 AM - Re: Now What? (Randy L. Thwing)
12. 10:25 AM - Re: Now What? (Paul Moore)
13. 10:37 AM - Re: Now What? (Robert L. Stone)
14. 11:51 AM - Re: Engine for 601XL (Milburn Reed)
15. 02:14 PM - Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? (Steve Hulland)
16. 02:35 PM - Re: strut coating (N601RT)
17. 03:36 PM - Re: Now What? (Bill Naumuk)
18. 04:29 PM - Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? (Randy L. Thwing)
19. 05:08 PM - Re: Speed & Zeniths (N601RT)
20. 05:10 PM - Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? (n801bh@netzero.com)
21. 05:20 PM - Re: EAA Airventure Oshkosh 2006 (Or just plain Oshkosh to most o (N601RT)
22. 05:29 PM - Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? (Jeff)
23. 06:17 PM - Re: (Jeff)
24. 06:50 PM - Engine Choices for Zodiac XL (Tom Farin)
25. 06:51 PM - Fuel Tank (s) Dented (Dave Ruddiman)
26. 07:21 PM - Re: Engine Choices for Zodiac XL (Dave Ruddiman)
27. 08:03 PM - Re: (Robert L. Stone)
28. 08:04 PM - Re: Fuel Tank (s) Dented (Robert L. Stone)
29. 08:33 PM - Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? (Steve Hulland)
30. 08:59 PM - Engine certification. (Paul Mulwitz)
31. 09:27 PM - Re: Fuel Tank (s) Dented (Dave Ruddiman)
32. 10:48 PM - Re: Engine Choices for Zodiac XL (Ron Lendon)
33. 11:53 PM - 701 seat belt attach (John Bolding)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Seat Belt Bracket |
Doug,
I noticed a problem with the tunnel 7-F-11-4 that came with my kit.
The radius at the top is about 1/2 the 30mm radius shown on the drawings
making it narrower at the top and also taller than 200mm. I spoke with
Nick about it and he suggested I install it after the torque tube is
installed to be sure there aren't any clearance issues. I have had a
couple of other parts that clearly were not made to the specifications
on the drawings and probably would not match pictures in the guide.
Gordon
Message 2
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I have a dial up connection and the picture is just fine.
Jean-Paul
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What?
Dave,
The picture looks small enough to me although I have a high speed
server and the Telephone modem folks might think it's too large.
As for the dented tank, the people that shipped it to you should
be notified first I would think just to see what they are willing to do
about it. They may ask you to return it to them at their expense and
provide you with a replacement then deal with the shipper themselves
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Now What?
Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the
shipper did it but I can't really prove it.
Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks, leave
it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this picture
thing. I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover. Here it
comes.
Dave in Salem
801 (with a dented tank)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Seat Belt Bracket |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
Doug.
I recall seeing the exact same when I installed mine. I stuck with the height from
the floor called out in the plans. Imagine the position when you put in a
seat.....Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51730#51730
Message 4
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That is the rear of the tank, there is a few inches of space in front of
the rear spar. the tank will fit, if it doesn't leak you can use it. Go
od luck on proving the shipper did it.....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the shipp
er did it but I can't really prove it.Should I take a rubber hammer to i
t and then check for leaks, leave it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpf
ul. I'm not up on this picture thing. I hope this is the right size or I
'm ducking for cover. Here it comes. Dave in Salem801 (with a dented tan
k)
<html><P>That is the rear of the tank, there is a few inches of space in
front of the rear spar. the tank will fit, if it doesn't leak you can u
se it. Good luck on proving the shipper did it.....</P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcas
t.net> wrote:<BR></P>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found
a dented tank. I think the shipper did it but I can't really prove it.<
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Should I take a rubber hammer to it and
then check for leaks, leave it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I
'm not up on this picture thing. I hope this is the right size or I'm du
cking for cover. Here it comes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave in Salem</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>801 (with a dented tank) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></html>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Great service from UHS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Hi Group,
It is a good thing to share or good and bad
experiences with suppliers. He is a good one.
Last Thursday, I called Mike Fothergill who is an
active and contributing member on this list to order a
UHS Spinner. I was going on vacation in his region
and I made an arrangement to pickup the spinner before
coming back home tuesday pm or wednesday pm this week.
Well, Mike called my tuesday (yesterday) at around 8am
to tell me that the spinner is ready and we made an
arrangement to meet at 10am somewhere between his
location and mine.
This is good service! It is nice to deal with real
people and not just corporate procedures and
constraints.
Michel
do not archive
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________________________
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Alternitive 601 Step designs? |
A couple years ago a fellow put the cross over rod on the inside. Legs came
out of the bottom. Seems like the pictures were on the ZAC web site for
builders, but I may be wrong about that.
do not archive
Message 7
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Thanks Ben. I appreciate the input.
----- Original Message -----
From: n801bh@netzero.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What?
That is the rear of the tank, there is a few inches of space in front
of the rear spar. the tank will fit, if it doesn't leak you can use it.
Good luck on proving the shipper did it.....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the
shipper did it but I can't really prove it.
Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks, leave it
alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this picture thing.
I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover. Here it comes.
Dave in Salem
801 (with a dented tank)
Message 8
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I'm glad the picture was OK. We don't want to get that started again. Do
we.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jean-Paul Roy
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What?
I have a dial up connection and the picture is just fine.
Jean-Paul
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What?
Dave,
The picture looks small enough to me although I have a high
speed server and the Telephone modem folks might think it's too large.
As for the dented tank, the people that shipped it to you
should be notified first I would think just to see what they are willing
to do about it. They may ask you to return it to them at their expense
and provide you with a replacement then deal with the shipper themselves
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Now What?
Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the
shipper did it but I can't really prove it.
Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks,
leave it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this
picture thing. I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover.
Here it comes.
Dave in Salem
801 (with a dented tank)
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
You might want to work that out with a body and fender guy in your area if you
are stuck with no support from the shipper and factory. Drill 1/8" holes where
you have to pull out the bends. That will give you a place to pull from. Afterward,
you can enlarge the holes to 5/32"to get them round, and fill them with
A5 rivets and ProSeal. As you said, it doesn't have to be perfect, just get it
close to the correct general shape.
Ed Moody II
---- Dave Ruddiman <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
> Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks, leave it alone,
or? Any ideas would be helpful.> Dave in Salem
> 801 (with a dented tank)
Message 10
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| Subject: | receiving shipments - was Now What? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Just for anyones information,
When you receive a shipment you should definitely note
on the waybill if there is any damage to the crate
before you sign for the shipment. That way you have
some recourse for shipping damage. If the crate was
fine and there was damage when you did your inventory
then either Zenith put a damaged part in your crate
(hard to believe) or you unknowingly did the damage
yourself in the unpacking. Either way you should take
photos and send them to Zenith right away. The
quicker the damage is reported the less likely it was
done by the builder.
Just my 2 cents.
David
--- "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com> wrote:
> That is the rear of the tank, there is a few inches
> of space in front of the rear spar. the tank will
> fit, if it doesn't leak you can use it. Good luck on
> proving the shipper did it.....
> do not archive
>
>
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Working on Wings
www.ch601.org
__________________________________________________
Message 11
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Hello Dave:
You don't have to "prove" the shipper did it. I have gone through
periods where UPS and surface shippers seemed to lose or damage half our
shipments. They are used to processing claims caused by their "valued
employees". Terms usually say that the product becomes the customer's
property when it is turned over to the shipper, but real world customer
relations usually dictates that the vender has to do the claim work IF
they picked the shipper! If you demanded a certain shipper be used,
then the factory feels no obligation to step in. Did ZA use their usual
shipper? Do you still have the packaging? Did ZA pack it adequately
for the type of product? I would first call ZA, send them the picture
and ask them if they want to repair or replace the tank, they can then
make a claim against their shipper. If it's a shipper they use a lot
they will have "leverage" with the shipper. If ZA did not pack the
shipment correctly, then they are directly responsible for the damage
and should fix things. If ZA says you are on your own with the claim,
call the shipper and make a claim, they usually send out a rep to
inspect the damage goods AND the packaging. They are used to doing
this. If anyone along the way tries to blow you off, start climbing the
ladder until you talk with someone that can make things happen.
Why would you want to put damaged parts in your new airplane? Give
ZA a chance and work with them, we all know they are very customer
oriented.
Something I learned with UPS: When we make a claim, and the
argument starts about "values" etc. we demand they send a Rep out to
talk to us, they say they will, but the claim gets settled, the Rep
never shows. Conclusion: UPS would rather settle almost any claim
before they will send a Rep out to the premises.
Of course, all the above assumes the item left ZA properly packed,
was then damaged by the shipper. If you unpacked the properly packaged
tank, got excited and dropped it against the corner of your workbench,
the above comments do not apply.
Don't settle and good luck.
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive
"Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the
shipper did it but I can't really prove it.
Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks, leave
it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this picture
thing. I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover. Here it
comes.
Dave in Salem
801 (with a dented tank)
Message 12
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Well said Randy and exactly my experience as well.
My kit crate showed minor damage which I noted with the freight driver
at delivery but he failed to make a note on his paperwork (no big
surprise....). As I inventoried, found several parts damaged. ZAC took
my claim to the freight guys and I contacted them on my end as well
since it was handed off from Yellow Frt. to RAC locally. The rep showed,
there was no hassle or argument even though the driver's documents
didn't note damage. Got ZAC quote on replacing all the parts and the
freight outfit cut the check.
UPS has delivered a couple of boxes of sheet metal that looked good
outside but were damaged outside and ZAC has replaced those pieces no
charge. Don't know if they're getting money back from UPS but I haven't
been left holding the bag yet.
Paul
XL - O200
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy L. Thwing
...
You don't have to "prove" the shipper did it. I have gone through
periods where UPS and surface shippers seemed to lose or damage half our
shipments. They are used to processing claims caused by their "valued
employees\
Do Not Archive
Message 13
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Randy,
Another thing Dave can do if the insurance starts to balk is ask
them if they would like to get involved in a "Bad faith Law Suit" This
has worked like a charm for me when I moved to Texas after retirement
the moving company lost 22 cartons of goods for a total of almost
$6,000.00. When the adjuster tried to talk me down, I told him that I
had bought movers insurance because haveing spent 22 years in the USAF
and changing stations many times I was well aware of how moving
companies operateand how they lose and damage house hold goods and
furniture. Anyway when I said I had talked to an attorney and been
advised to not argue with them just tell them I will see you in court
after you receive a summons and my lawyer will be asking for much more
in a bad faith suit. They paid every cent of my claim at once.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy L. Thwing
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Now What?
Hello Dave:
You don't have to "prove" the shipper did it. I have gone through
periods where UPS and surface shippers seemed to lose or damage half our
shipments. They are used to processing claims caused by their "valued
employees". Terms usually say that the product becomes the customer's
property when it is turned over to the shipper, but real world customer
relations usually dictates that the vender has to do the claim work IF
they picked the shipper! If you demanded a certain shipper be used,
then the factory feels no obligation to step in. Did ZA use their usual
shipper? Do you still have the packaging? Did ZA pack it adequately
for the type of product? I would first call ZA, send them the picture
and ask them if they want to repair or replace the tank, they can then
make a claim against their shipper. If it's a shipper they use a lot
they will have "leverage" with the shipper. If ZA did not pack the
shipment correctly, then they are directly responsible for the damage
and should fix things. If ZA says you are on your own with the claim,
call the shipper and make a claim, they usually send out a rep to
inspect the damage goods AND the packaging. They are used to doing
this. If anyone along the way tries to blow you off, start climbing the
ladder until you talk with someone that can make things happen.
Why would you want to put damaged parts in your new airplane?
Give ZA a chance and work with them, we all know they are very customer
oriented.
Something I learned with UPS: When we make a claim, and the
argument starts about "values" etc. we demand they send a Rep out to
talk to us, they say they will, but the claim gets settled, the Rep
never shows. Conclusion: UPS would rather settle almost any claim
before they will send a Rep out to the premises.
Of course, all the above assumes the item left ZA properly packed,
was then damaged by the shipper. If you unpacked the properly packaged
tank, got excited and dropped it against the corner of your workbench,
the above comments do not apply.
Don't settle and good luck.
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive
"Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the
shipper did it but I can't really prove it.
Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks,
leave it alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this
picture thing. I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover.
Here it comes.
Dave in Salem
801 (with a dented tank)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for 601XL |
I too have tentatively selected a ch 701- jabiru 2200 combination-I
would welcome input so related, guided or otherwise. I have observed a
hi powered ch 701 (912 Hi compression engine?) start up and shut down
and it shook like a wet dog as well as emitting a large tin shed sound.
I didn't think too much about the consequences until someone reported
they had cracks in the empennage from such shivering.
Mil Reed
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? |
David,
Enjoyed your $.02 thoughts concerning damage. However, you stated
"definitely note on waybill if there is damage to crate". None apparent, I
checked, so no note on waybill for driver. Then you stated:
> "If the crate was fine and there was damage when you did your inventory
> then either Zenith put a damaged part in your crate (hard to believe) or you
> unknowingly did the damage yourself in the unpacking. Either way you should
> take photos and send them to Zenith right away. The quicker the damage is
> reported the less likely it was done by the builder."
Interesting that you would only allude to two possibilities, either shipper
(Zenith) put damaged part in crate or recipient did the damage. Very narrow
thinking at best. There are several other potentials. Here is but one.
When I carefully opened crate I found the enclosed part to be pretty well
packed and damaged. It was obvious that damage was due to the crate being
"roughly handled" because very close looking found "slightly smashed outside
corners on wooden crate, etc. Inside, part was "dented", which was the
result of UPS dropping the crate a couple of feet - as they do all the time.
I know, because we receive UPS, FedEX, DHL shipments many times a week and
all of them drop things, etc. in their hurry to deliver. Very little care is
taken, even with well marked boxes such as the crate from Zenith. Zenith
packing appeared to have been done with care and well within normal
excellent protection standards - they did not take any shortcuts with the
packing or well made wooden crate. Pictures were taken, letters were
written, etc. to all parties.
UPS uses someone else to provide and process insurance - who's apparent main
job is to deny all that they can. UPS even took part and crate to
"investigate" and "determine" what happened. Part and crate were carefully
"marked" in an effort to determine what UPS might do during investigation.
They did nothing and returned crate with part stating that they did not
handle roughly or cause damage. The part had been repacked in the crate
exactly like the pictures showed. Many pictures of the entire initial
unpacking, etc. UPS never even opened the crate during their "investigation"
Zenith is and has been aware of this from the very beginning (15 months and
counting).
Most important, Zenith will receive any settlement if there ever is one -
and might then send to me. Zenith told me at start that they do not make a
strong effort to get insurance reimbursement. My completed part was insured
as a completed part, not kit part, at a higher value than the kit part.
Zenith is doing nothing to help with this situation. They simply do not seem
to care. Or, if they care as Sebastian stated in his one email, they don't
care enough to follow-up.
Thus, my advice when getting a shipment from Zenith, make yourself the
insured, pay a bit extra to do so, then if there is damage, fight hard.
Manufactures and shippers must be responsible for what they do or do not do
- and this includes Zenith.
Most of my dealings with Zenith have been very good and I enjoy the
airplanes - especially mine. But, they sometimes do not try to work hard
with customers. Another case in point.
While at a fly-in in Casa Grande Az. a few months ago, Zac and Roger were
there with the demonstrators. I had someone with me who was very interested
in a demo ride in the 601. Explained to Roger and Zac that he was very
interested. Could he get a ride, NO. Would either spend time with him to
answer questions, NO! Did anyone from Zenith seem interested in a potential
customer? No! Result, a probable lost sale. The person with me had the
motivation and money to be a "closed" customer that day. Now, he will not
consider any Zenith airplane.
Even with the majority of my limited, but first hand, experience with Zac,
Roger and Sebastian and the factory staff being very good and fun, I cannot
but wonder how many customers they might have chased away with such actions.
I can live with almost all that they do because it is good for all of us.
But, none of us should have to live with indefference or lack of trying to
resolve an issue. The damaged part issue is one that Zenith does not seem to
care much about. Since they are the named folks for insurance and they
choose not to work at a resolution, the consumer (me) is the one who takes
it in the shorts. Not a lot of money, perhaps - but very frustrating and
unnecessary.
Always remember - "Buyer Beware" as it seems the world has fewer people who
operate with serious integrity.
This will be my last post concerning the shipping issue as I do not want to
start something that is not really needed on this important forum.
Do not archive.
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus
free email and attachments.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: strut coating |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" <N601RT@comcast.net>
Another 2 cents.....
My gear legs were originally powder coated. I WOULD NOT recommend powder coating
gear legs. The powder coating on my gear legs added significant thickness, did
not wear as well as I expected, and was not as uniform as the original surface.
My gear had significant stiction (initial resistance to move, term frequently
used when discussing motorcycle forks).
I believe the powder coating may have contributed to my gear leg failure on 12/16/04.
I had 318 hours and 405 landings at the time. My replacement main gear
legs have a extra supports added (see picture) and were hard chromed. I also added
Nyoil bearings, from Zenith, at the top and bottom of all three gear legs
when I did the repairs. The replacement gear operates more smoothly than my original
gear.
My failed gear leg looked very much like the picture Tim Perkins posted. So much
in fact that I checked my pictures to see if Tim had some how posted a picture
of my gear!
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped,
598.4hrs, 686 landings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51890#51890
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/new_gear_5_small_161.jpg
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Dave-
One question no lister asked- "Was the crate damaged?"
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:33 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Now What?
Stared unwrapping my wing kit and found a dented tank. I think the
shipper did it but I can't really prove it.
Should I take a rubber hammer to it and then check for leaks, leave it
alone, or? Any ideas would be helpful. I'm not up on this picture thing.
I hope this is the right size or I'm ducking for cover. Here it comes.
Dave in Salem
801 (with a dented tank)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? |
"If the crate was fine and there was damage when you did your
inventory then either Zenith put a damaged part in your crate (hard to
believe) or you unknowingly did the damage yourself in the unpacking."
"It was obvious that damage was due to the crate being "roughly
handled" because very close looking found "slightly smashed outside
corners on wooden crate, etc. Inside, part was "dented", which was the
result of UPS dropping the crate a couple of feet - as they do all the
time."
I have comments on the two quotes above:
If you see that the container is damaged, you should note that on
the waybill, if no obvious damage to container, but you then find damage
inside, you then make a "concealed damage" claim with a surface shipper.
Once when speaking to a UPS "quality" representative after catching
one of their drivers, yet again, damaging our out-going product by
throwing it into the truck, I asked what their specification was how far
their drivers may throw parcels. The answer was the specification was
"zero" distance throwing or dropping. Parcels are to be handled and
stacked, not thrown and dropped. I refer to the later as the "Post
Office treatment".
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Speed & Zeniths |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" <N601RT@comcast.net>
The Zenith Don referred to above is N601RT, which now has almost 600 hrs and I
expect will have over 1000 hours in a couple more years.
Don shakes his head when he hears about me spending the $'s to add a constant speed
prop (keep the $'s & don't add the weight), use his heated pitot tube (weight
that will probably never be used), or having Oregon Aero seats (too much
$'s and too heavy).
Paul, Don and I each live ~ 40 miles from Camus. Let me know if you want to see
or ride in N601RT OR come to the EAA chapter 105 breakfast the first Sat of the
month at Twin Oaks. Don and I are usually there.
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped,
598.4hrs, 686 landings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51935#51935
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? |
Steve wrote" >Most important, Zenith will receive any settlement if th
ere ever is one - and might then send to >me. Zenith told me at start th
at they do not make a strong effort to get insurance r>eimbursement. My
completed part was insured as a completed part, not kit part, at a highe
r v>alue than the kit part. Zenith is doing nothing to help with this si
tuation. They simply do not s>eem to care. Or, if they care as Sebastian
stated in his one email, they don't care enough to .follow-up. > >Thus,
my advice when getting a shipment from Zenith, make yourself the insure
d, pay a bit >extra to do so, then if there is damage, fight hard. Manuf
actures and shippers must be >responsible for what they do or do not do
- and this includes Zenith.
Boy .. this sure doesn't sound like the Zenith people I dealt with.
I want this archived too.
Also.. What the heck is a CH600 taildragger??
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Steve Hulland" <marinegunner@gmail.com> wrote:
David,Enjoyed your $.02 thoughts concerning damage. However, you stated
"definitely note on waybill if there is damage to crate". None apparent,
I checked, so no note on waybill for driver. Then you stated:"If the cr
ate was fine and there was damage when you did your inventory then eithe
r Zenith put a damaged part in your crate (hard to believe) or you unkno
wingly did the damage yourself in the unpacking. Either way you should t
ake photos and send them to Zenith right away. The quicker the damage
is reported the less likely it was done by the builder." Interesting tha
t you would only allude to two possibilities, either shipper (Zenith) pu
t damaged part in crate or recipient did the damage. Very narrow thinkin
g at best. There are several other potentials. Here is but one. When I
carefully opened crate I found the enclosed part to be pretty well packe
d and damaged. It was obvious that damage was due to the crate being "ro
ughly handled" because very close looking found "slightly smashed outsid
e corners on wooden crate, etc. Inside, part was "dented", which was the
result of UPS dropping the crate a couple of feet - as they do all the
time. I know, because we receive UPS, FedEX, DHL shipments many times a
week and all of them drop things, etc. in their hurry to deliver. Very l
ittle care is taken, even with well marked boxes such as the crate from
Zenith. Zenith packing appeared to have been done with care and well wit
hin normal excellent protection standards - they did not take any shortc
uts with the packing or well made wooden crate. Pictures were taken, let
ters were written, etc. to all parties. UPS uses someone else to provide
and process insurance - who's apparent main job is to deny all that the
y can. UPS even took part and crate to "investigate" and "determine" wha
t happened. Part and crate were carefully "marked" in an effort to deter
mine what UPS might do during investigation. They did nothing and return
ed crate with part stating that they did not handle roughly or cause dam
age. The part had been repacked in the crate exactly like the pictures s
howed. Many pictures of the entire initial unpacking, etc. UPS never eve
n opened the crate during their "investigation" Zenith is and has been a
ware of this from the very beginning (15 months and counting). Most imp
ortant, Zenith will receive any settlement if there ever is one - and mi
ght then send to me. Zenith told me at start that they do not make a str
ong effort to get insurance reimbursement. My completed part was insured
as a completed part, not kit part, at a higher value than the kit part.
Zenith is doing nothing to help with this situation. They simply do not
seem to care. Or, if they care as Sebastian stated in his one email, th
ey don't care enough to follow-up. Thus, my advice when getting a shipm
ent from Zenith, make yourself the insured, pay a bit extra to do so, th
en if there is damage, fight hard. Manufactures and shippers must be res
ponsible for what they do or do not do - and this includes Zenith. Most
of my dealings with Zenith have been very good and I enjoy the airplane
s - especially mine. But, they sometimes do not try to work hard with cu
stomers. Another case in point. While at a fly-in in Casa Grande Az. a f
ew months ago, Zac and Roger were there with the demonstrators. I had so
meone with me who was very interested in a demo ride in the 601. Explain
ed to Roger and Zac that he was very interested. Could he get a ride, NO
. Would either spend time with him to answer questions, NO! Did anyone f
rom Zenith seem interested in a potential customer? No! Result, a probab
le lost sale. The person with me had the motivation and money to be a "c
losed" customer that day. Now, he will not consider any Zenith airplane.
Even with the majority of my limited, but first hand, experience with
Zac, Roger and Sebastian and the factory staff being very good and fun,
I cannot but wonder how many customers they might have chased away with
such actions. I can live with almost all that they do because it is goo
d for all of us. But, none of us should have to live with indefference o
r lack of trying to resolve an issue. The damaged part issue is one that
Zenith does not seem to care much about. Since they are the named folks
for insurance and they choose not to work at a resolution, the consumer
(me) is the one who takes it in the shorts. Not a lot of money, perhaps
- but very frustrating and unnecessary. Always remember - "Buyer Bewar
e" as it seems the world has fewer people who operate with serious integ
rity. This will be my last post concerning the shipping issue as I do no
t want to start something that is not really needed on this important fo
rum. Do not archive.
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scan
ned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insur
e virus free email and attachments.
<html><DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Steve wrote"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>Most important, Zenith will receive any settlement if there eve
r is one - and might then send to >me. Zenith told me at start that t
hey do not make a strong effort to get insurance r>eimbursement. My c
ompleted part was insured as a completed part, not kit part, at a higher
v>alue than the kit part. Zenith is doing nothing to help with this
situation. They simply do not s>eem to care. Or, if they care as Seba
stian stated in his one email, they don't care enough to .follow-up. </D
IV>
<DIV>> </DIV>
<DIV>>Thus, my advice when getting a shipment from Zenith, make yours
elf the insured, pay a bit >extra to do so, then if there is damage,
fight hard. Manufactures and shippers must be >responsible for what t
hey do or do not do - and this includes Zenith. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><BR>Boy .. this sure doesn't sound like the Zenith people I deal
t with.</P>
<P>I want this archived too.</P>
<P>Also.. What the heck is a CH600 taildragger??<BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR
>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair.com<BR><BR>-- "Steve Hulland" 
;<marinegunner@gmail.com> wrote:<BR></P>
<DIV>David,</DIV>
<DIV>Enjoyed your $.02 thoughts concerning damage. However, you stated "
definitely note on waybill if there is damage to crate". None apparent,
I checked, so no note on waybill for driver. Then you stated:</DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">"If the crate was fine and t
here was damage when you did your inventory then either Zenith put a dam
aged part in your crate (hard to believe) or you unknowingly did the dam
age yourself in the unpacking. Either way you should take photos and sen
d them to Zenith right away. The quicker the damag
e is reported the less likely it was done by the builder." </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Interesting that you would only allude to two possibilities, either
shipper (Zenith) put damaged part in crate or recipient did the damage.
Very narrow thinking at best. There are several other potentials. Here
is but one. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When I carefully opened crate I found the enclosed part to be prett
y well packed and damaged. It was obvious that damage was due to the cra
te being "roughly handled" because very close looking found "slightly sm
ashed outside corners on wooden crate, etc. Inside, part was "dented", w
hich was the result of UPS dropping the crate a couple of feet - as they
do all the time. I know, because we receive UPS, FedEX, DHL shipments m
any times a week and all of them drop things, etc. in their hurry to del
iver. Very little care is taken, even with well marked boxes such as the
crate from Zenith. Zenith packing appeared to have been done with care
and well within normal excellent protection standards - they did not tak
e any shortcuts with the packing or well made wooden crate. Pictures wer
e taken, letters were written, etc. to all parties. </DIV>
<DIV>UPS uses someone else to provide and process insurance - who's appa
rent main job is to deny all that they can. UPS even took part and crate
to "investigate" and "determine" what happened. Part and crate were car
efully "marked" in an effort to determine what UPS might do during inves
tigation. They did nothing and returned crate with part stating that the
y did not handle roughly or cause damage. The part had been repacked in
the crate exactly like the pictures showed. Many pictures of the entire
initial unpacking, etc. UPS never even opened the crate during their "in
vestigation" Zenith is and has been aware of this from the very beginnin
g (15 months and counting). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Most important, Zenith will receive any settlement if there ever is
one - and might then send to me. Zenith told me at start that they do n
ot make a strong effort to get insurance reimbursement. My completed par
t was insured as a completed part, not kit part, at a higher value than
the kit part. Zenith is doing nothing to help with this situation. They
simply do not seem to care. Or, if they care as Sebastian stated in his
one email, they don't care enough to follow-up. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thus, my advice when getting a shipment from Zenith, make yourself
the insured, pay a bit extra to do so, then if there is damage, fight ha
rd. Manufactures and shippers must be responsible for what they do or do
not do - and this includes Zenith. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Most of my dealings with Zenith have been very good and I enjoy the
airplanes - especially mine. But, they sometimes do not try to work har
d with customers. Another case in point.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>While at a fly-in in Casa Grande Az. a few months ago, Zac and Roge
r were there with the demonstrators. I had someone with me who was very
interested in a demo ride in the 601. Explained to Roger and Zac that he
was very interested. Could he get a ride, NO. Would either spend time w
ith him to answer questions, NO! Did anyone from Zenith seem interested
in a potential customer? No! Result, a probable lost sale. The person wi
th me had the motivation and money to be a "closed" customer that day. N
ow, he will not consider any Zenith airplane. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Even with the majority of my limited, but first hand, experien
ce with Zac, Roger and Sebastian and the factory staff being very good a
nd fun, I cannot but wonder how many customers they might have chased aw
ay with such actions. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I can live with almost all that they do because it is good for all
of us. But, none of us should have to live with indefference or lack of
trying to resolve an issue. The damaged part issue is one that Zenith do
es not seem to care much about. Since they are the named folks for insur
ance and they choose not to work at a resolution, the consumer (me) is t
he one who takes it in the shorts. Not a lot of money, perhaps - but ver
y frustrating and unnecessary. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Always remember - "Buyer Beware" as it seems the world has fewer pe
ople who operate with serious integrity.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This will be my last post concerning the shipping issue as I do not
want to start something that is not really needed on this important for
um.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do not archive.<BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Semper Fi,<BR>Steven R. H
ulland<BR>CH 600 Taildragger<BR>Amado, AZ<BR><BR>This and all other inco
ming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/se
nding and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and
attachments. </DIV></DIV></html>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Airventure Oshkosh 2006 (Or just plain Oshkosh to |
most o
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" <N601RT@comcast.net>
N601RT was in row 312 from Monday am through about noon on Friday. Fresh paint.
Some think over equipped panel. Somewhat heavy for a Rotax powered HDS. Overweight
pilot. Someday it may get wheel pants.
Regarding the builders dinner. While I enjoyed the event; I missed Chris; I missed
CH601/CH701 and potentially CH801 name tags. I think it would be nice to have
activities to encourage more interaction between the attendees. Possibly getting
people to do a show of hands for considering/building/flying a Zenith design,
flew to OSH, engine type, etc.
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped,
598.4hrs, 686 landings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51939#51939
Message 22
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| Subject: | receiving shipments - was Now What? |
David,
I beg to differ with "If the crate was
fine and there was damage when you did your inventory
then either Zenith put a damaged part in your crate
(hard to believe) or you unknowingly did the damage
yourself in the unpacking." I received a fuselage skin that was fine when
ZAC packed it and arrived rolled up in a long undamaged wooden box.
However, the skin had moved back and forth in transit damaging both ends.
There may even be other ways a part could be damaged. If you told me that
as a customer, I'd be concerned.
Jeff Davidson
Message 23
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Bob,
Since I have been putting 3300A on my posts, I feel somewhat obligated to
reply. I have been using 3300A because that is the designation that was
used in the documentation I received at the engine workshop in Shelbyville
and with my engine. In the technical manual, there is reference to a long
since resolved problem with red rotor caps on "early 3300A engines." The
interesting question is what does the 'A' mean. I did spend a lot more time
that I care to admit trying to find out. Alas, I believe that for practical
purposes, they are the same. Technically, the 'A' must have arrived
sometime, but I don't know when or exactly why. As far as I can tell, the
very recent change to hydraulic lifters and additional cooling fines on the
heads has not brought about 3300B! I suggest asking on the Jabiru list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/ or simply calling JabiruUSA at
Sales info: 800-JABIRU1 (800-522-4781) if you want to ask further.
Jeff Davidson
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Stone
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 7:57 PM
I have seen posts about the Jabiru 3300 and 3300A. Can anyone tell me
what the difference is between the two.
Do not archive
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
Message 24
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| Subject: | Engine Choices for Zodiac XL |
Folks,
First let me compliment the posters on this subject for not trashing
each other's viewpoints and turning this discussion into a war.
I'm a new builder and thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject. I'm
working on the XL tail section and have three Corvair core engines I'm
in the process of disassembling. But I also went up in the Jabiru
equipped factory XL at the Romeoville, IL Sport Pilot fly in. And I
just returned from Oshkosh.
I haven't seen this posted to the list although many of you are aware of
the fact the Zenith both had both a Jabiru equipped XL and a Corvair
equipped XL. The Corvair equipped XL was WW's plane and he spent a fair
amount of time in the Zenith booth.
I sat through two WW presentations and talked extensively with William
and Gus from the WW operation and with the Zenith factory reps. One of
the factory reps (who I won't mention by name) told me if he was to
build an XL personally, he'd build one with a Corvair engine. Do I
consider any of this to be a formal endorsement of Corvair power by
Zenith? No. But It does make me feel better about the direction in
which I am headed.
One of the posters indicated he felt some folks doing automotive
conversions were doing so for the wrong reasons. I'm not sure which
auto conversions he was discussing. And I'm not sure which reasons
were the "wrong reason". Here are the three most common reasons I can
think of for doing a Corvair conversion.
1. Cost - there is no question an auto conversion is going to be
cheaper than a new Jabiru or Rotax. It is highly probable that a
Corvair conversion will also be cheaper than a rebuild of an O-200. I'm
aware some are claiming an O-200 build can be done for $4,000. I've
been watching prices of O-200s on eBay. Based on what I've seen, coming
in significantly under $12,000 for a rebuilt engine (without starting
with a core) would be an accomplishment.
2. Education/Maintenance - There is no question in my mind I will learn
a whole lot more building an engine myself than taking delivery of a new
or rebuilt engine in a crate. In turn, I'm going to be in much better
shape to do maintenance and repairs myself including field repairs.
3. Satisfaction - Isn't this one of the reasons many of us are building
Zodiacs, either from kits or from scratch? In fact, couldn't the same
three reasons be given for our decisions to build kits or scratchbuild
the airframe itself.
Here are the reasons I've heard given for not doing an auto conversion.
I've added my reactions to the arguments.
1. Ignition system redundancy - Because much of the WW conversion
offers redundancy for almost the entire ignition system, a large point
is made of the fact there are not two spark plugs per cylinder. An
inoperative spark plug is a big issue on a 4 cylinder engine. It is
much less so on a six. There is at least one ducumented case of a
Corvair landing without any particular drama with one of the spark plug
totally out of the head.
2. Inappropriate Design for aviation - Most of the discussion relating
to corvairs relates to crankshaft issues. Corvairs have been flying in
aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in 1960. Only recently have
crank issues surfaced, for the most part on engines with increased
horespower, or extended cranks, and non-nitrided cranks. I've read
every piece of material on Corvair crank failures I can lay my hands on.
There is no history I can find of crank failures on Corvairs with
nitrided cranks built to produce 100 hp without crank extensions. The
other problems I've heard aout with Corvair powered Experimentals
involve components that are also found on aviation purposed engines that
appear to be subject to the same problems.
3. Parts availability in the field (Podunk, NE) and field maintenance -
This may be a valid point if looking for parts or maintenance if the
alternative is a Continental or Lycoming engine. But I'd bet It would
be easier to come up with a Corvair part than a Jabiru or Rotax part in
a remote location. If A&Es don't like to work on experimentals, would
they feel good about and be qualified to work on a Roitax or Jabiru
engine? I'm asking. I don't know the answer.
4. Resale value - Given that only a few Corvair powered XLs are flying,
I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to this question. There is a
strong Corvair community. And I've seen partially complete WW Corvair
conversions go on eBay for more than the builder had in the engine.
5. Safety - Some have claimed that building an auto conversion adds to
the crash statistics. I suppose that is likely to be a correct
statement although I've seen no statistics to support it. But couldn't
the same be said for scratch building or kit building an airframe?
Someone said they cringe every time they read about a crash of an auto
conversion. I cringed when I read the FAA report about the Zodiac whos
wings folded up killing both the flight instructor and the owner. My
son really cringed when he close up witnessed what a WW2 dive bomber can
do to a Vans RV on the taxiway at Oshkosh last week. Let's face it.
Flying is risky.
So here's where I'm at. I'm building a Zodiac XL knowing full well the
risk is higher that I'll crash with a plane I build myself than if I
bought a factory built airplane. The same is true of the engine. I'm
going to begin building a Corvair engine and a Zodiac XL. Actually I'm
about half way through the XL's tail. Along the way I'm going to learn
a hell of a lot about building both planes and engines. As I proceed
I'm going to keep asking myself two questions. Do you feel good enough
about the job you are doing in building this airframe to bet your life
on your skills? Do you feel good enough about the the job you are doing
building this engine and what else you have learned about its safety to
bet your life on your skills and knowledge?
In a few years from now when both are nearly complete I'll have to make
a decision. It will come down to three choices.
1. Don't fly the plane or the engine. I'll have learned a hell of a
lot about both and I'm likely to recover most of my investment. If I
don't get it all back, I'll consider the difference as an investment in
my education and an enjoyable hobby. Probably a whole lot cheaper than
owning a boat or playing golf.
2. Buy an aviation purposed engine and fly the Zodiac. I'll either
sell the Corvair engine for close to what I have in it or drop it in a
Corvair automobile. And I'll be much better prepared to maintain my
aviation purposed engine.
3. Fly a Corvair powered Zodiac and take the risk. But it will be a
calculated risk. And in my mind that's what Experimental aviation is
all about.
Thanks for listening.
Tom Farin
Message 25
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank (s) Dented |
Hi Everyone,
I sent a picture and email to ZAC last night about my dented tank.
Received an email from Shirley today. She is gone for a couple days, but
said she would follow up when she got back. In the mean time, I decided
to put the other 3 tanks away to keep them from getting dented. Guess
what? I found damage on another one. I thought it was just oil canned
and the glare of the overhead lights made it look that way. It isn't
banged up quite as bad as the other one, but it sure doesn't look as
good as new. I took the 1st tank to a friend that is a metal
fabricator/artist. He said it wouldn't be a big deal to take out the
dent. Not perfect, but it would be square again.
The crate had damage when I picked it up. I told the guy at the trucking
dock and he saw it. I felt inside and didn't feel any damage. Not even
any torn paper. In fact when I took the tanks out you couldn't tell
there was any damage at all, until you unwrapped them. Unfortunately, I
didn't take any pictures of the crate. Couldn't find the camera and had
to unload the trailer to haul some equipment.
I appreciate the suggestions. I know what I should have done. So, we'll
see what happens. As far as I am concerned, it isn't ZAC fault. I'm
curious to see what they can do. BTW the shipper is Yellow Freight. I'll
have an update tomorrow.
Dave in Salem
801 with 2 damaged fuel tanks.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices for Zodiac XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net>
Not to add fuel to any future fire on this subject. I would probably use a
Corvair engine if I could but not enough power for an 801. There is a lot of
good information on this list. I really enjoy reading all of the ideas that
are presented here. I don't know of any place you could find that everyone
agrees on a single subject. My suggestion, for what it's worth, is take all
the information you want or need and either ignore or delete the rest.
So There.
Dave in Salem
801
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 6:53 PM
Folks,
First let me compliment the posters on this subject for not trashing each
other's viewpoints and turning this discussion into a war.
I'm a new builder and thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject. I'm
working on the XL tail section and have three Corvair core engines I'm in
the process of disassembling. But I also went up in the Jabiru equipped
factory XL at the Romeoville, IL Sport Pilot fly in. And I just returned
from Oshkosh.
I haven't seen this posted to the list although many of you are aware of the
fact the Zenith both had both a Jabiru equipped XL and a Corvair equipped
XL. The Corvair equipped XL was WW's plane and he spent a fair amount of
time in the Zenith booth.
I sat through two WW presentations and talked extensively with William and
Gus from the WW operation and with the Zenith factory reps. One of the
factory reps (who I won't mention by name) told me if he was to build an XL
personally, he'd build one with a Corvair engine. Do I consider any of this
to be a formal endorsement of Corvair power by Zenith? No. But It does
make me feel better about the direction in which I am headed.
One of the posters indicated he felt some folks doing automotive conversions
were doing so for the wrong reasons. I'm not sure which auto conversions he
was discussing. And I'm not sure which reasons were the "wrong reason".
Here are the three most common reasons I can think of for doing a Corvair
conversion.
1. Cost - there is no question an auto conversion is going to be cheaper
than a new Jabiru or Rotax. It is highly probable that a Corvair conversion
will also be cheaper than a rebuild of an O-200. I'm aware some are
claiming an O-200 build can be done for $4,000. I've been watching prices
of O-200s on eBay. Based on what I've seen, coming in significantly under
$12,000 for a rebuilt engine (without starting with a core) would be an
accomplishment.
2. Education/Maintenance - There is no question in my mind I will learn a
whole lot more building an engine myself than taking delivery of a new or
rebuilt engine in a crate. In turn, I'm going to be in much better shape to
do maintenance and repairs myself including field repairs.
3. Satisfaction - Isn't this one of the reasons many of us are building
Zodiacs, either from kits or from scratch? In fact, couldn't the same three
reasons be given for our decisions to build kits or scratchbuild the
airframe itself.
Here are the reasons I've heard given for not doing an auto conversion.
I've added my reactions to the arguments.
1. Ignition system redundancy - Because much of the WW conversion offers
redundancy for almost the entire ignition system, a large point is made of
the fact there are not two spark plugs per cylinder. An inoperative spark
plug is a big issue on a 4 cylinder engine. It is much less so on a six.
There is at least one ducumented case of a Corvair landing without any
particular drama with one of the spark plug totally out of the head.
2. Inappropriate Design for aviation - Most of the discussion relating to
corvairs relates to crankshaft issues. Corvairs have been flying in
aircraft since the Corvair was introduced in 1960. Only recently have crank
issues surfaced, for the most part on engines with increased horespower, or
extended cranks, and non-nitrided cranks. I've read every piece of material
on Corvair crank failures I can lay my hands on. There is no history I can
find of crank failures on Corvairs with nitrided cranks built to produce 100
hp without crank extensions. The other problems I've heard aout with
Corvair powered Experimentals involve components that are also found on
aviation purposed engines that appear to be subject to the same problems.
3. Parts availability in the field (Podunk, NE) and field maintenance -
This may be a valid point if looking for parts or maintenance if the
alternative is a Continental or Lycoming engine. But I'd bet It would be
easier to come up with a Corvair part than a Jabiru or Rotax part in a
remote location. If A&Es don't like to work on experimentals, would they
feel good about and be qualified to work on a Roitax or Jabiru engine? I'm
asking. I don't know the answer.
4. Resale value - Given that only a few Corvair powered XLs are flying, I'm
not sure anyone knows the answer to this question. There is a strong
Corvair community. And I've seen partially complete WW Corvair conversions
go on eBay for more than the builder had in the engine.
5. Safety - Some have claimed that building an auto conversion adds to the
crash statistics. I suppose that is likely to be a correct statement
although I've seen no statistics to support it. But couldn't the same be
said for scratch building or kit building an airframe? Someone said they
cringe every time they read about a crash of an auto conversion. I cringed
when I read the FAA report about the Zodiac whos wings folded up killing
both the flight instructor and the owner. My son really cringed when he
close up witnessed what a WW2 dive bomber can do to a Vans RV on the taxiway
at Oshkosh last week. Let's face it. Flying is risky.
So here's where I'm at. I'm building a Zodiac XL knowing full well the risk
is higher that I'll crash with a plane I build myself than if I bought a
factory built airplane. The same is true of the engine. I'm going to begin
building a Corvair engine and a Zodiac XL. Actually I'm about half way
through the XL's tail. Along the way I'm going to learn a hell of a lot
about building both planes and engines. As I proceed I'm going to keep
asking myself two questions. Do you feel good enough about the job you are
doing in building this airframe to bet your life on your skills? Do you
feel good enough about the the job you are doing building this engine and
what else you have learned about its safety to bet your life on your skills
and knowledge?
In a few years from now when both are nearly complete I'll have to make a
decision. It will come down to three choices.
1. Don't fly the plane or the engine. I'll have learned a hell of a lot
about both and I'm likely to recover most of my investment. If I don't get
it all back, I'll consider the difference as an investment in my education
and an enjoyable hobby. Probably a whole lot cheaper than owning a boat or
playing golf.
2. Buy an aviation purposed engine and fly the Zodiac. I'll either sell
the Corvair engine for close to what I have in it or drop it in a Corvair
automobile. And I'll be much better prepared to maintain my aviation
purposed engine.
3. Fly a Corvair powered Zodiac and take the risk. But it will be a
calculated risk. And in my mind that's what Experimental aviation is all
about.
Thanks for listening.
Tom Farin
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: |
Jeff,
I did send them an e-mail asking if the 3300 is a certified engine
because of the 40 hours fly off time for non certified and 25 hours for
engines that are certified. I am still waiting for an answer.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List:
Bob,
Since I have been putting 3300A on my posts, I feel somewhat obligated
to reply. I have been using 3300A because that is the designation that
was used in the documentation I received at the engine workshop in
Shelbyville and with my engine. In the technical manual, there is
reference to a long since resolved problem with red rotor caps on "early
3300A engines." The interesting question is what does the 'A' mean. I
did spend a lot more time that I care to admit trying to find out.
Alas, I believe that for practical purposes, they are the same.
Technically, the 'A' must have arrived sometime, but I don't know when
or exactly why. As far as I can tell, the very recent change to
hydraulic lifters and additional cooling fines on the heads has not
brought about 3300B! I suggest asking on the Jabiru list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/ or simply calling JabiruUSA
at Sales info: 800-JABIRU1 (800-522-4781) if you want to ask further.
Jeff Davidson
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Stone
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 7:57 PM
To: Zenith List
Subject: Zenith-List:
I have seen posts about the Jabiru 3300 and 3300A. Can anyone
tell me what the difference is between the two.
Do not archive
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank (s) Dented |
Dave,
You say ZAC is not at fault and that may be true but in any case,
they selected the people to do the shipping so it may not be their fault
but it is still their responsibility
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank (s) Dented
Hi Everyone,
I sent a picture and email to ZAC last night about my dented tank.
Received an email from Shirley today. She is gone for a couple days, but
said she would follow up when she got back. In the mean time, I decided
to put the other 3 tanks away to keep them from getting dented. Guess
what? I found damage on another one. I thought it was just oil canned
and the glare of the overhead lights made it look that way. It isn't
banged up quite as bad as the other one, but it sure doesn't look as
good as new. I took the 1st tank to a friend that is a metal
fabricator/artist. He said it wouldn't be a big deal to take out the
dent. Not perfect, but it would be square again.
The crate had damage when I picked it up. I told the guy at the
trucking dock and he saw it. I felt inside and didn't feel any damage.
Not even any torn paper. In fact when I took the tanks out you couldn't
tell there was any damage at all, until you unwrapped them.
Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of the crate. Couldn't find
the camera and had to unload the trailer to haul some equipment.
I appreciate the suggestions. I know what I should have done. So,
we'll see what happens. As far as I am concerned, it isn't ZAC fault.
I'm curious to see what they can do. BTW the shipper is Yellow Freight.
I'll have an update tomorrow.
Dave in Salem
801 with 2 damaged fuel tanks.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: receiving shipments - was Now What? |
Ben,
CH600 is a plans built airplane. Very much like the CH601, except cockpit is
a bit narrower. Someday soon I will send a picture of the airplane. Just to
busy with some necessary personal administration right now. Should be done
in ten days or so. Then will take time to send picture, etc.
Like I said, I really enjoyed meeting the folks at Zenith and felt from the
beginning that they were a great group. However, this latest issue has
clouded my thoughts a bit. I even offered a fairly easy solution that has
never been acknowledged.
Do not archive.--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Engine certification. |
Hi Bob,
This is a good question to discuss with your FAA inspector or DAR
too. The guy who does inspections around here gave a 5 hour phase I
test period to a Kitfox with a Rotax 582. He was aware that that
particular engine and propeller combination had been used before and
the Airworthiness Certificate given was E-LSA.
Apparently the question of certification for the engine is not the
real issue. After all, the engine becomes uncertified the moment it
is installed in an experimental plane.
Paul
XL Fuselage
At 08:00 PM 8/2/2006, you wrote:
>Jeff,
> I did send them an e-mail asking if the 3300 is a certified
> engine because of the 40 hours fly off time for non certified and
> 25 hours for engines that are certified. I am still waiting for an answer.
>
>Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
>Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank (s) Dented |
Bob,
I agree with what you said. One tank was bad enough, but two is way to
much.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Stone
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank (s) Dented
Dave,
You say ZAC is not at fault and that may be true but in any case,
they selected the people to do the shipping so it may not be their fault
but it is still their responsibility
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank (s) Dented
Hi Everyone,
I sent a picture and email to ZAC last night about my dented tank.
Received an email from Shirley today. She is gone for a couple days, but
said she would follow up when she got back. In the mean time, I decided
to put the other 3 tanks away to keep them from getting dented. Guess
what? I found damage on another one. I thought it was just oil canned
and the glare of the overhead lights made it look that way. It isn't
banged up quite as bad as the other one, but it sure doesn't look as
good as new. I took the 1st tank to a friend that is a metal
fabricator/artist. He said it wouldn't be a big deal to take out the
dent. Not perfect, but it would be square again.
The crate had damage when I picked it up. I told the guy at the
trucking dock and he saw it. I felt inside and didn't feel any damage.
Not even any torn paper. In fact when I took the tanks out you couldn't
tell there was any damage at all, until you unwrapped them.
Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of the crate. Couldn't find
the camera and had to unload the trailer to haul some equipment.
I appreciate the suggestions. I know what I should have done. So,
we'll see what happens. As far as I am concerned, it isn't ZAC fault.
I'm curious to see what they can do. BTW the shipper is Yellow Freight.
I'll have an update tomorrow.
Dave in Salem
801 with 2 damaged fuel tanks.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices for Zodiac XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Very well said. Flying is risky. I am also building an XL and have 1 corvair
core, looking for more, and will be thrilled to fly it with that engine.
I hired in to Chevrolet Engineering in 1979 and have always had an affinity for
the Bow Tie logo. Now there is no more Chevrolet Engineering, it went through
several name changes, but I do still work at the GM Tech Center and still love
them Chevys'.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52006#52006
Message 33
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| Subject: | 701 seat belt attach |
What DIFFERENCE does it make if some dimension on the seat belt attach
fitting does not match a drawing when the WHOLE DAMN FITTING pulls out
in an accident and lets you kiss the panel ??? This is NOT green vs.
maroon scotchbrite, this is the restraint system on your aircraft which
some of us on this list (and/or our friends and loved ones)will one day
need and test to its limits. The 701 seat belt attach has been shown
recently that it is probably/possibly (you choose)not up to the task .
I have no clue if the 601 is the same design as I don't have those
drawings (somebody help me here) but if it does hopefully enough folks
will bug Zenith for an analysis of the failure(MAYBE it was an anamoly)
and a fix, if warranted. Since Jon's accident I have looked thru my
collection of about 35 homebuilt aircraft drawings (too many airplanes,
not enough time) and NONE of the seat belt fittings are secured with a
row of 5 pulled rivets into a single thickness of .025 aluminum. Not
even close. Maybe Chris has figured out something that Thorpe,
Thurston,C.G. Taylor,Van, and others didn't......If a seat belt attach
fitting pulled out of a Ford and some cute 10yr old went thru a
windshield you would hear about it on CNN.and 1,678 personal injury
lawyers would have a collective orgasm. The engineers would be all over
it NOW.
This was brought up right after Jon was gracious enough to allow us post
mortum pictures and the interest level was almost non-existent but
since then there has been hundreds of posts of mostly fluff when
compared to the importance of this (in my deranged mind anyway). If I'm
playing left field without a glove somebody tell me to sit down and keep
quiet. When you do, gently explain to me how 5 "poprivets" into a sheet
of alum slightly thicker than a beer can is going to keep me in place at
40 G's. It didn't work with Jon.
I REALLY shouldn't write stuff at 1:30 AM but I'm thick skinned so fire
away!! LOW&SLOW John
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