Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:28 AM - Re: Seat belt slack (Gary Gower)
2. 04:10 AM - Re: Seat belt slack (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 04:11 AM - Re: Polished Aluminum (Roland Smith)
4. 05:06 AM - total engine costs involved??? ()
5. 07:59 AM - Re: Kudos for Home Built Help (Robert L. Stone)
6. 08:04 AM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Robert L. Stone)
7. 09:27 AM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (LarryMcFarland)
8. 09:49 AM - remove from list (Steve McShea)
9. 10:13 AM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Jaybannist@cs.com)
10. 10:13 AM - Re: remove from list (n282rs@earthlink.net)
11. 10:29 AM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Randy Bryant)
12. 10:56 AM - total engine costs involved??? (Robin Bellach)
13. 11:04 AM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Clyde Barcus)
14. 11:12 AM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Mike)
15. 11:27 AM - Drying racks. (Dave Ruddiman)
16. 11:52 AM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Tom Henderson)
17. 12:06 PM - Re: Corvair Engine -- not difficult to install ()
18. 12:10 PM - Re: Axle Drill Guide (Matt & Jo)
19. 01:05 PM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (John Marzulli)
20. 01:25 PM - WW's CH701/Corvair project ??? (Robin Bellach)
21. 03:05 PM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (kevinbonds)
22. 04:08 PM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (n801bh@netzero.com)
23. 04:15 PM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Allen Ricks)
24. 04:27 PM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (n801bh@netzero.com)
25. 07:38 PM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Randy Bryant)
26. 11:52 PM - Re: total engine costs involved??? (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Seat belt slack |
Lets hold on a minute and think... we are not talking car crashes here at freeway
speeds. like the yellow dummies videos in TV
We have to take as a fact that any airplane out of (pilots) control falling down
will increase the speed and inertia very fast, to the point that what ever seat
belt has will not be enough to save the pilot...
The best thing (and only survival option) is to focus to keep control of the descent
(aproach) so you can land inside the landing speeds of the airplane...
even if there is no landing strip in front!
This will save us more our lifes that the best seat belts.
In a few words: Fly the airplane, dont try to minimize the (airplane) damage,
it can stall and/or spin... If you make a perfect aproach, you may win a first
price: Your own life!
Remember if the engine stops, lets focus in flying the airplane down.
Zenith airplanes are very good in the low speeds area.., I read some time ago
that a pilot was able to survive and later rebuilt his Pitts after a corn field
landing... This was keeping calm.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
I think I already posted something similar?
George Swinford <grs-pms@comcast.net> wrote: Another point to consider:
How far do you want to move forward during a crash load situation? Probably
not very far, considering that parts of the cockpit may be moving back to meet
you. Just a thought...
George
---------------------------------
Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo!
Groups.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Seat belt slack |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the wise thoughts.
I have been very uncomfortable with all the talk of seat belts as
crash restraints, but I didn't know why. Your post cleared it up for me.
I have always thought of seat belts in airplanes as restraints to
keep the pilot in the pilot's seat in turbulence and unusual
attitudes rather than for crash restraint. Of course they also have
the crash restraint function, but as you pointed out this is only
useful in low speed crashes. If you fly at cruise speed into the
side of a mountain, all the restraint systems in the world aren't
going to save you.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 12:07 AM 8/5/2006, you wrote:
>Lets hold on a minute and think... we are not talking car crashes
>here at freeway speeds. like the yellow dummies videos in TV
>We have to take as a fact that any airplane out of (pilots) control
>falling down will increase the speed and inertia very fast, to the
>point that what ever seat belt has will not be enough to save the pilot...
>The best thing (and only survival option) is to focus to keep
>control of the descent (aproach) so you can land inside the landing
>speeds of the airplane...
>even if there is no landing strip in front!
>This will save us more our lifes that the best seat belts.
>
>In a few words: Fly the airplane, dont try to minimize the
>(airplane) damage, it can stall and/or spin... If you make a
>perfect aproach, you may win a first price: Your own life!
>Remember if the engine stops, lets focus in flying the airplane down.
>
>Zenith airplanes are very good in the low speeds area.., I read
>some time ago that a pilot was able to survive and later rebuilt his
>Pitts after a corn field landing... This was keeping calm.
>
>Saludos
>Gary Gower.
>I think I already posted something similar?
>
>
-
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Polished Aluminum |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roland Smith" <docponds@sover.net>
Thanks to Dick for a most helpful kind of posting, an objective comparison of two
aluminum polishing products.
A couple questions remain in my decision process about paint vs. polish. 1)
Weight difference. 2) Compatability with Corrosion X which I plan to apply after
painting/polishing 3) Use on amphibious floats.
Thanks,
Roland Smith
701AA reserved, tail and wings, 912ULS anticipated
--------
701 kit, anticipating Rotax 912 ULS and amphibious trike floats
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52517#52517
Message 4
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| Subject: | total engine costs involved??? |
I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000.
plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine already
built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that a cowling is
available for approximately an additional $400.
Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this "stuff"
out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional costs,
roughly for all of the other components involved to make the Corvair
work in the 601. In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of the
Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to
compare "apples to apples", but I would like other's comments and rough
costs involved.
Thanks for sharing....
Bill in central Florida
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kudos for Home Built Help |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com>
Members,
Ron has it right. A few weeks ago I saw their add and tried to get the
DVD catalog via their web site. Being fairly new to the computer I could
not figure out how to order their $2.00 catalog so I sent them an e-mail or
called, I can't remember which and told them I was having trouble ordering
via the web site and they said never mind the two bucks , we will send you
the catalog free. When the package arrived it was marked on the outside of
the envelope, This pk contains a catalog but when I opened it and took the
DVD out it was "Building a Glass Panel" I notified them of the error and
since this DVD costs $24.00 I offered to return it. Then they told me to
just go ahead and keep it and they would send me the catalog which they did.
So I now have both DVD's and both were free.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:00 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
>
> I wanted to share with the group here about my experience. A while back a
> plea was made to purchase some product to help a guy ouy. I did just that
> but much to my suprise it was loaded with good useful information.
>
> Using the methods found on the "Scratch Building Basics for Metal
> Aircraft" DVD from Home Built Help: http://www.homebuilthelp.com/.
>
> I was able to manufacture my Wing Nose Ribs much faster and consistent.
> Now you need to know, I have worked in the metal fab trade over 30 years
> now. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.
>
> I actually bought 2 DVD's one for wiring and one for sheet metal. A week
> or so later they sent me another sheet metal one for free. Now I don't
> know if this is normal practice but it sure was nice of them to do so.
>
> I have no affiliation, other than being a customer, and I thought we
> needed to recoginize this company as one of the good guys.
>
> --------
> Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
> Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52496#52496
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
Bill,
Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help
pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the
Jabiru for aircraft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto
conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru.
I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is
only my opinion. However it is impresive the the most sucessful
designer and company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels
the same way.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
----- Original Message -----
From: allpro2@bellsouth.net
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000.
plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine
already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that a
cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.
Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this "stuff"
out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional costs,
roughly for all of the other components involved to make the Corvair
work in the 601. In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of the
Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to
compare "apples to apples", but I would like other's comments and rough
costs involved.
Thanks for sharing....
Bill in central Florida
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Bob,
When you spend $60 to $75K for a homebuilt like the RV, you'd expect to
see a $25K+ engine powering it and the money is not at issue. Most RV
builders
are not interested in conversions. Using an automotive engine wouldn't
do Van any good in the long run. He will sell you an engine and his
choice is going to
parallel commercial aircraft products. The Zenith people do the same
thing. An auto conversion has its own rewards besides being able to
save huge amounts
of cash. The objectives of knowing more about your engine and its
operation is key and essential for conversions. Few builders want more
than to bolt one on and
run it with the expectation of 1000 worry free hours. That's why the
margin between engine problems of the conversion and the production
commercial types
are so close.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru
Robert L. Stone wrote:
> Bill,
> Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help
> pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and
> the Jabiru for aircraft. I have no idea how dependable any of the
> auto conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the
> Jabiru. I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but
> this is only my opinion. However it is impresive the the most
> sucessful designer and company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field
> (RV) feels the same way.
>
> Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
> Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* allpro2@bellsouth.net <mailto:allpro2@bellsouth.net>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM
> *Subject:* Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
>
> I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
>
> Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
>
> On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately
> $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
> The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine
> already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that
> a cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.
>
> Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this
> "stuff" out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what
> additional costs, roughly for all of the other components involved
> to make the Corvair work in the 601. In otherwords I am trying to
> compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF
> "package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to apples", but I
> would like other's comments and rough costs involved.
>
> Thanks for sharing....
>
> Bill in central Florida
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | remove from list |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve McShea" <mcsheas@earthlink.net>
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Zenith-List
Digest Server
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 11:59 PM
*
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Zenith-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Fri 08/04/06: 23
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:18 AM - Yamaha boots dimensions (Tom Faulkner)
2. 07:27 AM - Re: 801 Tail Height (Tom Faulkner)
3. 07:31 AM - Re: Yamaha boots dimensions ()
4. 07:48 AM - Re: 801 Tail Height ()
5. 08:31 AM - Re: 801 Tail Height (Dave Ruddiman)
6. 08:32 AM - Tail Heigth (Dave Ruddiman)
7. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: Speed & Zeniths (don wentz)
8. 10:50 AM - Re: Belt attachment (Milburn Reed)
9. 11:02 AM - Re: Engine for 601XL (Milburn Reed)
10. 11:21 AM - Re: Belt attachment (Tom and Bren Henderson)
11. 11:36 AM - remove from list (Andrew Cross)
12. 11:54 AM - list (Jerry Jensen)
13. 01:03 PM - Re: Yamaha boots dimensions (Robin Bellach)
14. 01:03 PM - Re: Yamaha boots dimensions (Robin Bellach)
15. 03:19 PM - Polished Aluminum (neitzel)
16. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: Speed & Zeniths (Paul Mulwitz)
17. 06:44 PM - Re: Belt attachment slack (Dave)
18. 08:38 PM - Re: Belt attachment slack (Bill Cardell)
19. 09:12 PM - Re: Engine for 601XL (Steve Hulland)
20. 09:17 PM - Re: Belt attachment slack (kevinbonds)
21. 10:03 PM - Kudos for Home Built Help (Ron Lendon)
22. 10:03 PM - Seat belt slack (George Swinford)
23. 11:49 PM - Weekly pics (Tom Henderson)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 07:18:28 AM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tom Faulkner" <tomtafcor@triton.net>
Geoff: The mounting plates for the boots are diamond shaped with max
dimensions of 4" x 6". They should work in your application.
Tom Faulkner
N801TP
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 07:27:27 AM PST US
Dave: My 801 tail height measures 10 feet 3-3/4 inches.
Tom Faulkner
N801TP
Do not archive
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 07:31:22 AM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
In a previous post, we saw the part numbers of the Yamaha boots but most
Yamaha
parts sites require us to know the Yamaha product model number and year to
look
up and oreder the parts. Do you have the model and year numbers to help me
out?
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL
---- Tom Faulkner <tomtafcor@triton.net> wrote:
>
> Geoff: The mounting plates for the boots are diamond shaped with max
> dimensions of 4" x 6".
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 07:48:14 AM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
Okay, I can't stand it any longer...... nobody has asked,
"Does this make my tail look big?"
Ed Moody II
---- Tom Faulkner <tomtafcor@triton.net> wrote:
> Dave: My 801 tail height measures 10 feet 3-3/4 inches.
>
> Tom Faulkner
> N801TP
>
> Do not archive
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 08:31:53 AM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman"
<pacificpainting@comcast.net>
You know the only answer to that. No your tail is fine. You've got the best
tail I've ever seen.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:46 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
>
> Okay, I can't stand it any longer...... nobody has asked,
>
> "Does this make my tail look big?"
>
> Ed Moody II
>
> ---- Tom Faulkner <tomtafcor@triton.net> wrote:
>> Dave: My 801 tail height measures 10 feet 3-3/4 inches.
>>
>> Tom Faulkner
>> N801TP
>>
>> Do not archive
>
>
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 08:32:22 AM PST US
The reason for the question on tail is that my shop ceiling is only
8'6". I knew the height was around 10' but curious to know what it
really comes out to in various planes.
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 10:30:54 AM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "don wentz" <dasduck@comcast.net>
Paul,
I agree with Roy, I would like to come out with Roy and take a look at your
project, maybe do a Tech Inspection while we're there? I'm a TC for metal
aircraft and I know I annoyed the heck out of Roy nitpicking his project
prior to first flight ;-)
Never hurts to get in-person ideas on your project.
BTW - 105 Ch Breakfast is tomorrow at 8am at Twin Oaks. The morning flying
wx has been perfect this week so should be a huge turnout.
dw
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N601RT
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:06 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" <N601RT@comcast.net>
The Zenith Don referred to above is N601RT, which now has almost 600 hrs and
I expect will have over 1000 hours in a couple more years.
Don shakes his head when he hears about me spending the $'s to add a
constant speed prop (keep the $'s & don't add the weight), use his heated
pitot tube (weight that will probably never be used), or having Oregon Aero
seats (too much $'s and too heavy).
Paul, Don and I each live ~ 40 miles from Camus. Let me know if you want to
see or ride in N601RT OR come to the EAA chapter 105 breakfast the first Sat
of the month at Twin Oaks. Don and I are usually there.
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR
equipped, 598.4hrs, 686 landings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51935#51935
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 10:50:46 AM PST US
We don't want to put this subject to bed yet do we?
I may install two additional brackets at the rear of the baggage
compartment( 701), then link them to the forward brackets with belt
material with 2"+/- of slack. One would have to pull out 2 brackets,
sequentially. What do you think?
Mil Reed
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 11:02:48 AM PST US
Then the 582 would shake the 701 worse then the newer 912 with the
clutch ?
How much longer is your ground run at t.o.with the 582 vs. 912 ? double
?
Mil
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 11:21:41 AM PST US
I think your best bet would be to eliminate the slack. An airplane
crash doesn't
stop until all the aluminum is resting on the ground. What I mean is the
initial force that may pull the first bracket out will most likely still be
present for some time during impact as the plane crumples (damn, now that
jut
doesn't sound like much fun!). eliminate the slack and you double your
resistance
to breaking a single bracket. The airplane is going to provide some amount
of deceleration protection as it crumples so the brackets need only hold the
pilot to the airframe as it does it's job.
Let's call this my 1/2 penny's worth...
Do Not Archive...
Milburn Reed <milreed@directcon.net> wrote: We don't want to put this
subject
to bed yet do we?
I may install two additional brackets at the rear of the baggage
compartment(
701), then link them to the forward brackets with belt material with 2"+/-
of
slack. One would have to pull out 2 brackets, sequentially. What do you
think?
Mil Reed
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 11:36:09 AM PST US
remove from list
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 11:54:13 AM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jerry Jensen <jensenm33@sbcglobal.net>
remove from list
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 01:03:41 PM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
Sure, 2001 Mountain Max.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:30 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
>
> In a previous post, we saw the part numbers of the Yamaha boots but most
> Yamaha parts sites require us to know the Yamaha product model number and
> year to look up and oreder the parts. Do you have the model and year
> numbers to help me out?
>
> Ed Moody II
> Rayne, LA
> 601XL
>
> ---- Tom Faulkner <tomtafcor@triton.net> wrote:
>>
>> Geoff: The mounting plates for the boots are diamond shaped with max
>> dimensions of 4" x 6".
>
>
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 01:03:41 PM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
That's a much truncated diamond and much closer to 4-1/8 x 6-1/2" at the max
points.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:13 AM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tom Faulkner" <tomtafcor@triton.net>
>
> Geoff: The mounting plates for the boots are diamond shaped with max
> dimensions of 4" x 6". They should work in your application.
> Tom Faulkner
> N801TP
>
>
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 03:19:21 PM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" <n963wb@frontiernet.net>
Greetings all,
I have been following the paint or polish thread for some time and have
appreciated the input as, I too, was debating the same question. What
concerned me was the aluminum for my 701 appears to have a "grain" to it.
This grain probably is the result of the material being rolled to the proper
thickness. The metal I intend to polish certainly is not oxidized, but to
polish out this grain appearance requires a more aggressive approach. I
took a piece of my skin material to OSH and went first to the Nuvite booth.
Bob McHugh spent nearly an hour working a small area explaining the process
and working the metal with five different materials (F9,F7,G6,C and S). The
final finish with the "S" grade gave a pretty decent shine and nearly
eliminated the grain appearance. His recommendation to polish a 701: 11
pounds of the five products @ $37/pound or $408 for the polishing medium.
He also sold an equipment package for another $500. This seemed like a lot
of money for the two buffers and required pads but in his defense they
appeared to be high quality tools.
aluminum and asked him to demonstrate what his product would do. Jay worked
with three different grades of product from course to fine and produced
favorable results in 1/3 the time required with Nuvite. I showed the
aluminum to an impartial judge (wife) and before I told her my choice, she
picked the Rolite spot. I agreed with her that the Rolite appeared to be a
brighter shine. According to Jay, I can polish my entire aircraft with five
pounds of his product. I was skeptical but he assured me that if applied
correctly, it would be enough. Someone one on the list suggested lightly
coating the skin with mineral spirits before applying the polish. He stated
that the polish went further and was easier to apply. Seems like a sound
tip and will try that approach with the Rolite. Total cost of his products:
$154. This included three buffing heads (one for each of the grades of
polish) several applicator pads and a sealant. This product is available on
line for a cost of $119 plus shipping. This price does not include the pads
and buffing heads. Site address is:
www.topoftheline.com/rolmetpolkit.html I am in no way affiliated with
this site or product, I am merely passing along a way for anyone who wishes
more information about this product as well as a means to secure the
product.
There was some discussion as to whether a sealant was needed. According to
Jay of Rolite, the final shine will last considerably longer if the sealant
is applied. He also stated that after a flight if a much diluted spray of
the sealant was misted on the leading edges to remove bugs, this would
further preserve the shine and remove bugs before they have a chance to
"set". Seemed like good advice.
I did buy from Rolite and as yet have not experimented with it. I would
rather be pulling rivets and getting my bird to the hangar. I will get the
polish going before the final assembly so I am not standing on my head
trying to buff the under sides of the wings and tail. I will let everyone
know how it goes when I get started. I realize there is lots of work
involved getting to the final shine but I think I will be glad that I took
the polish plunge.
Thanks for all the good tips.
Dick Neitzel
Sayner, WI
701 Jabiru 2200
Wings done-tail done-fuselage on gear-starting instrument panel-will hang
engine next
________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
Time: 03:35:23 PM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Don,
I would be delighted if you would come over for a tech inspection. I
haven't had one since Randy Lervold came out in January - three wings
ago. I don't have the energy to come to the breakfast this month
since I just got back from the first day at the Clark County Fair and
I am exhausted.
Of course it is fine with me if you bring Roy along to see my shop
and plane. If you guys want to fly into Grove to visit I can pick
you both up there. It is only ten minutes from my house.
Just let me know when you would like to come over. I can send you a
map or directions or make other arrangements to make it easy. If you
want to use the telephone, my number is 350 834 2010. Email is more
convenient for me most of the time, but sometimes the phone is the best way.
Best regards,
Paul
At 10:27 AM 8/4/2006, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "don wentz" <dasduck@comcast.net>
>
>Paul,
>I agree with Roy, I would like to come out with Roy and take a look at your
>project, maybe do a Tech Inspection while we're there? I'm a TC for metal
>aircraft and I know I annoyed the heck out of Roy nitpicking his project
>prior to first flight ;-)
>
>Never hurts to get in-person ideas on your project.
>
>BTW - 105 Ch Breakfast is tomorrow at 8am at Twin Oaks. The morning flying
>wx has been perfect this week so should be a huge turnout.
>dw
>
>-----Original Message-----
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N601RT
>Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:06 PM
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "N601RT" <N601RT@comcast.net>
>
>The Zenith Don referred to above is N601RT, which now has almost 600 hrs
and
>I expect will have over 1000 hours in a couple more years.
>
>Don shakes his head when he hears about me spending the $'s to add a
>constant speed prop (keep the $'s & don't add the weight), use his heated
>pitot tube (weight that will probably never be used), or having Oregon Aero
>seats (too much $'s and too heavy).
>
>
>Paul, Don and I each live ~ 40 miles from Camus. Let me know if you want to
>see or ride in N601RT OR come to the EAA chapter 105 breakfast the first
Sat
>of the month at Twin Oaks. Don and I are usually there.
>
>Regards,
>
>Roy
>
>N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR
>equipped, 598.4hrs, 686 landings
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51935#51935
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
Time: 06:44:20 PM PST US
Gee, that's the same way a hangman's noose is rigged. The slack snaps your
neck!
Dave 601-HD 912ULS
I may install two additional brackets at the rear of the baggage
compartment( 701), then link them to the forward brackets with belt material
with 2"+/- of slack. One would have to pull out 2 brackets, sequentially.
What do you think?
Mil Reed
________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
Time: 08:38:57 PM PST US
FWIW, if you take a look at the seatbelts in your car, if your car is
pre-airbag, they have a section where they overlap and stitch the belt,
so that it effectively gives a progressive trip forward. With airbags
they don't do it.
do not archive
TurboDog's Dad
Bill Cardell
www.flyinmiata.com
1-800-FLY-MX5S
970-242-3800
________________________________
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:41 PM
Gee, that's the same way a hangman's noose is rigged. The slack snaps
your neck!
Dave 601-HD 912ULS
I may install two additional brackets at the rear of the baggage
compartment( 701), then link them to the forward brackets with belt
material with 2"+/- of slack. One would have to pull out 2 brackets,
sequentially. What do you think?
Mil Reed
________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
Time: 09:12:04 PM PST US
My guess is probably none or very little. With the 582 the 701 weighs less
than with the 912, especially at or near sea level. Another story at higher
altitudes.
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus
free email and attachments.
________________________________ Message 20
____________________________________
Time: 09:17:00 PM PST US
You can get webbing, which has this overlapped stitched section, at sporting
good stores that carry professional Rock-climbing gear. They are designed to
rip through part way in the event of a violent fall without snapping a
hernia or neck (though admittedly the rope has some spring in it as well).
Seems they would be designed for the same kind of loads we would experience.
Anyone want to test one of these by falling 50-60 feet on a slacked rope.
:-) I have one of these somewhere. I'll find it and take a picture.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Cardell
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:35 PM
FWIW, if you take a look at the seatbelts in your car, if your car is
pre-airbag, they have a section where they overlap and stitch the belt, so
that it effectively gives a progressive trip forward. With airbags they
don't do it.
do not archive
TurboDog's Dad
Bill Cardell
www.flyinmiata.com
1-800-FLY-MX5S
970-242-3800
_____
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:41 PM
Gee, that's the same way a hangman's noose is rigged. The slack snaps your
neck!
Dave 601-HD 912ULS
I may install two additional brackets at the rear of the baggage
compartment( 701), then link them to the forward brackets with belt material
with 2"+/- of slack. One would have to pull out 2 brackets, sequentially.
What do you think?
Mil Reed
________________________________ Message 21
____________________________________
Time: 10:03:05 PM PST US
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
I wanted to share with the group here about my experience. A while back a
plea
was made to purchase some product to help a guy ouy. I did just that but
much
to my suprise it was loaded with good useful information.
Using the methods found on the "Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft"
DVD from Home Built Help: http://www.homebuilthelp.com/.
I was able to manufacture my Wing Nose Ribs much faster and consistent. Now
you
need to know, I have worked in the metal fab trade over 30 years now. I
guess
you can teach an old dog new tricks.
I actually bought 2 DVD's one for wiring and one for sheet metal. A week or
so
later they sent me another sheet metal one for free. Now I don't know if
this
is normal practice but it sure was nice of them to do so.
I have no affiliation, other than being a customer, and I thought we needed
to
recoginize this company as one of the good guys.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52496#52496
________________________________ Message 22
____________________________________
Time: 10:03:05 PM PST US
Another point to consider:
How far do you want to move forward during a crash load situation?
Probably not very far, considering that parts of the cockpit may be
moving back to meet you. Just a thought...
George
________________________________ Message 23
____________________________________
Time: 11:49:18 PM PST US
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
Bill, I have the same question as you. What is the real cost of the FWF
with a Corvair engine? I'd also like to know if WW can supply a FWF "kit." If
not, what can he supply and what will need to be scrounged? I've asked this
question via e-mail, but have not gotten a reply. I'm hoping someone on the
forum can help.
I AM NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING ANYONE'S OPINION OF THE CORVAIR ENGINE,
PERIOD!
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: remove from list |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: n282rs@earthlink.net
You guys wanting to be removed from the list can easily do it yourself... the same way you signed up. Thr results are immediate as you don't have to wait for Matt to read your request. The link is at the bottom of every message . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
Randy Stout
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@n344rb.com>
I agree with most all of the points/arguments I've seen for different engine
configurations discussed on this board. In my mind, my opinion, no auto
conversion will be as 'good' (and there are many different definitions of
what good is), as a "real aircraft engine". I had originally planned to go
with the Corvair but still, even with the nitrided cranks, I'm scared of the
crank failures from a safety perspective. I still would like the experience
of building my own engine though. I've got quite a bit of engine building
experience under my belt over the years and think I have 'goods upstairs' to
accomplish this, as well as the tooling. For the things I don't have the
tooling for, I have connections to folks who do.
That being said, my plan IS to build my own engine. I'm just starting with
a Lycoming O-235 core, as opposed to an auto engine. Let's face it,
airplane engines are very basic engines. They were designed that way. My
plan is bore my own cylinders. I have already made a torque plate to hold
the cylinder jug at the proper tension while it's being bored. I have
access to a good Sun Cylinder Hone to hone them to the final size. I plan
on using J&E pistons. J&E will custom make a forged set of pistons in any
configuration you can dream up for about $100 each. I have access to very
competent machine shop that can rebuild the rods, and do other machining
that might be done as well... There will be other parts I know I will have
to buy as 'certified' parts, such as the cam, lifters and maybe main/rod
bearings, gaskets...etc., but I can deal with that. I believe in the end, I
can have a fresh "O-235" for less than $5K, including the cost of my core.
I'm sure I would have ended up with $3K or more in a suitable Corvair. No,
I know it won't be 'certified' anymore... neither is the airframe I'm
hanging it on. Do I think I will have an engine that is just as reliable as
a 'certified' engine... Yes, and because I've been inside it and know what's
in it, and how it was done/assembled, in many ways I'll even feel better
about it...to me that's 1/2 the battle.
One guy told me today that without a 'certified' prop/engine configuration,
I'd have a 40 hour fly off, rather than a 25 hour fly off... Who cares? I
plan on flying it more than 40 hours anyways, so this really don't play a
part...at least in my mind.
At any rate, this is the plan I have in place for the engine that will be on
my 601XL... I'll keep you posted on my progress and any snags I encounter
along the way...
Have fun and keep er' out of the trees,
Randy Bryant
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:24 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Bob,
> When you spend $60 to $75K for a homebuilt like the RV, you'd expect to
> see a $25K+ engine powering it and the money is not at issue. Most RV
> builders
> are not interested in conversions. Using an automotive engine wouldn't do
> Van any good in the long run. He will sell you an engine and his choice
> is going to
> parallel commercial aircraft products. The Zenith people do the same
> thing. An auto conversion has its own rewards besides being able to save
> huge amounts
> of cash. The objectives of knowing more about your engine and its
> operation is key and essential for conversions. Few builders want more
> than to bolt one on and
> run it with the expectation of 1000 worry free hours. That's why the
> margin between engine problems of the conversion and the production
> commercial types
> are so close.
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru
>
>
> Robert L. Stone wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>> Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help
>> pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the
>> Jabiru for aircraft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto
>> conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru.
>> I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only
>> my opinion. However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer and
>> company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.
>> Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
>> Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* allpro2@bellsouth.net <mailto:allpro2@bellsouth.net>
>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM
>> *Subject:* Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
>>
>> I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
>> Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
>> On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately
>> $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
>> The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine
>> already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that
>> a cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.
>> Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this
>> "stuff" out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what
>> additional costs, roughly for all of the other components involved
>> to make the Corvair work in the 601. In otherwords I am trying to
>> compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF
>> "package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to apples", but I
>> would like other's comments and rough costs involved.
>> Thanks for sharing....
>> Bill in central Florida
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | total engine costs involved??? |
Don't forget the motor mount ($639 from WW).
----- Original Message -----
From: allpro2@bellsouth.net
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000.
plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine
already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that a
cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.
Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this "stuff"
out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional costs,
roughly for all of the other components involved to make the Corvair
work in the 601. In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of the
Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to
compare "apples to apples", but I would like other's comments and rough
costs involved.
Thanks for sharing....
Bill in central Florida
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
I checked my spreadsheet on the Corvair engine I recently rebuilt, total
cost so far is $6120. I bought almost all of WW components he has to
offer including nitrided crankshaft, most of the rest was purchased from
Clark's Corvair such as forged pistons, 040 jugs, the pistons and
connecting rods are balanced by Clark's, new hydraulic lifters, ARP
studs, OT 10 cam, stainless steel valves, I had a three angle valve job
done on the heads, new valves guides, I think you get the picture by
now. I tried to buy the best of everything to go into this engine, the
amount listed above is everything firewall forward (including prop and
spinner) except the carb and altenator, anything I may have missed would
not amount to much. There is not doubt I could have cut cost, I just
didn't want to.
Clyde Barcus
601 XL
----- Original Message -----
From: Jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
Bill, I have the same question as you. What is the real cost of the
FWF with a Corvair engine? I'd also like to know if WW can supply a FWF
"kit." If not, what can he supply and what will need to be scrounged?
I've asked this question via e-mail, but have not gotten a reply. I'm
hoping someone on the forum can help.
I AM NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING ANYONE'S OPINION OF THE CORVAIR ENGINE,
PERIOD!
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
Do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
>What is the real cost of the FWF with a Corvair engine? I'd also like to know
if >WW can supply a FWF "kit." If not, what can he supply and what will need
to
>be scrounged?
If you go to WW's web site, you can see everything he offers for sale. When I was
considering the Corvair, he sold most of the FWF components you would need,
but the cowl was still under development (probably finished by now). His manual
provides instructions as to where to find the stuff he doesn't sell. As for
a complete FWF kit with installations instructions, I don't believe that's an
option (yet), but that was the goal. If you go to his web site, you'll get a
fairly accurate idea of what it would cost to build & install a Corvair conversion,
depending on how cheaply you can find an engine core.
As for a cost comparison between the 'Vair and the Jab, my calculations revealed
that you would save approximately $6 or $7K, depending on various factors. So,
if money is the issue, then the 'Vair wins out since that's a decent chunk
of change. But also keep in mind that if you consider time to be worth money,
then the two engine choices come closer to balancing out (especially if you're
not an A&P mechanic). Despite what others may lead you to believe, installing
a Corvair is definitely more difficult than the Jab 3300 w/FWF kit. Not that
either one is particulary easy, but the Jab wins out in that department.
Mike Fortunato
601XL Jab 3300
---------------------------------
Message 15
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I thought ZAC sent these things to use for drying racks when you spray
stuff. Just found out they are wing spars.
Dave in Salem
801
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine -- not difficult to install |
The Corvair Engine and the FWF items are not difficult to install.
I just did it and I found it to be very straight forward.
All of the parts are readily available and the systems are well thought
out.
My installation is as per WW's recommendations and makes use of almost
every part that he offers. I could have saved money if I had followed
William Wynne's
advice sooner. Until William helped me, my engine was not good enough
and required a redo.
I am nearly ready to begin flight testing. I have confidence that the
engine, airframe and the avionics will perform as expected and now, in
their final configuration, they are as they should be.
When I have solid performance numbers for you, I will post them.
Until I have first hand knowledge I am reluctant to comment.
Gary Ray
601XL WW Corvair installation, Tri-gear , first time builder
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Axle Drill Guide |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
Vic, I was just out in the shop trying to figure out how to mount the axle
and came across the post. I would like to barrow it also when you are done.
I will be glad to also pass it off to some one on the list.
I will send you my address off list.
I haven't been working on the planed for a while. Had some other things to
do. I am excited to get back at it. I plan on putting it on the gear next.
I also have the new Jabiru 3300 with the hydraulic lifters coming this
month. I will post pics on my site when it comes.
Cheers
Matt
WWW.zodiacxl.com
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 2:34 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: victor verdev <vjvus@yahoo.com>
>
> I,m at that exact step and would appreciate using it.
> I would pass it on at no cost to next builder.
> Vic Verdev 5646 Rush Road, Conover, WI. 54519
> Thanks Vic
>
> --- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona"
>> <wr.giacona@cox.net>
>>
>> I have the axle drill guide for GAC Models 5013,
>> 5015 & 5018. It made fitting the axle to the gear a
>> breeze.
>>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
Has anyone heard how WW's CH701/Corvair project is going?
On 8/5/06, Tom Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom Henderson Robin Bellach wrote:
>
> Don't forget the motor mount ($639 from WW).
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* allpro2@bellsouth.net
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM
> *Subject:* Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
>
> I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
>
> Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
>
> On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000.
> plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
> The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine already
> built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that a cowling is
> available for approximately an additional $400.
>
> Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this "stuff"
> out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional costs,
> roughly for all of the other components involved to make the Corvair work in
> the 601. In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF
> package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to
> apples", but I would like other's comments and rough costs involved.
>
> Thanks for sharing....
>
> Bill in central Florida
>
>
> Or fabricate one yourself for less than $100. $200 if you have to
> have a professional weld it for you.
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
Message 20
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| Subject: | WW's CH701/Corvair project ??? |
I've sure been wondering too, but haven't heard a peep.
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Marzulli
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
Has anyone heard how WW's CH701/Corvair project is going?
On 8/5/06, Tom Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com > wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom Henderson
Robin Bellach wrote:
Don't forget the motor mount ($639 from WW).
----- Original Message -----
From: allpro2@bellsouth.net
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately
$15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine
already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that a
cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.
Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this
"stuff" out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional
costs, roughly for all of the other components involved to make the
Corvair work in the 601. In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs
of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard
to compare "apples to apples", but I would like other's comments and
rough costs involved.
Thanks for sharing....
Bill in central Florida
Or fabricate one yourself for less than $100. $200 if you have
to have a professional weld it for you.
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
Message 21
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| Subject: | total engine costs involved??? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Sounds like a plan to me! Just do it.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Plans building.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Bryant
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:07 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@n344rb.com>
I agree with most all of the points/arguments I've seen for different engine
configurations discussed on this board. In my mind, my opinion, no auto
conversion will be as 'good' (and there are many different definitions of
what good is), as a "real aircraft engine". I had originally planned to go
with the Corvair but still, even with the nitrided cranks, I'm scared of the
crank failures from a safety perspective. I still would like the experience
of building my own engine though. I've got quite a bit of engine building
experience under my belt over the years and think I have 'goods upstairs' to
accomplish this, as well as the tooling. For the things I don't have the
tooling for, I have connections to folks who do.
That being said, my plan IS to build my own engine. I'm just starting with
a Lycoming O-235 core, as opposed to an auto engine. Let's face it,
airplane engines are very basic engines. They were designed that way. My
plan is bore my own cylinders. I have already made a torque plate to hold
the cylinder jug at the proper tension while it's being bored. I have
access to a good Sun Cylinder Hone to hone them to the final size. I plan
on using J&E pistons. J&E will custom make a forged set of pistons in any
configuration you can dream up for about $100 each. I have access to very
competent machine shop that can rebuild the rods, and do other machining
that might be done as well... There will be other parts I know I will have
to buy as 'certified' parts, such as the cam, lifters and maybe main/rod
bearings, gaskets...etc., but I can deal with that. I believe in the end, I
can have a fresh "O-235" for less than $5K, including the cost of my core.
I'm sure I would have ended up with $3K or more in a suitable Corvair. No,
I know it won't be 'certified' anymore... neither is the airframe I'm
hanging it on. Do I think I will have an engine that is just as reliable as
a 'certified' engine... Yes, and because I've been inside it and know what's
in it, and how it was done/assembled, in many ways I'll even feel better
about it...to me that's 1/2 the battle.
One guy told me today that without a 'certified' prop/engine configuration,
I'd have a 40 hour fly off, rather than a 25 hour fly off... Who cares? I
plan on flying it more than 40 hours anyways, so this really don't play a
part...at least in my mind.
At any rate, this is the plan I have in place for the engine that will be on
my 601XL... I'll keep you posted on my progress and any snags I encounter
along the way...
Have fun and keep er' out of the trees,
Randy Bryant
XL - Wings - Plans Only
http://www.n344rb.com
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:24 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Bob,
> When you spend $60 to $75K for a homebuilt like the RV, you'd expect to
> see a $25K+ engine powering it and the money is not at issue. Most RV
> builders
> are not interested in conversions. Using an automotive engine wouldn't do
> Van any good in the long run. He will sell you an engine and his choice
> is going to
> parallel commercial aircraft products. The Zenith people do the same
> thing. An auto conversion has its own rewards besides being able to save
> huge amounts
> of cash. The objectives of knowing more about your engine and its
> operation is key and essential for conversions. Few builders want more
> than to bolt one on and
> run it with the expectation of 1000 worry free hours. That's why the
> margin between engine problems of the conversion and the production
> commercial types
> are so close.
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru
>
>
> Robert L. Stone wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>> Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help
>> pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the
>> Jabiru for aircraft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto
>> conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru.
>> I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only
>> my opinion. However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer and
>> company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.
>> Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
>> Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* allpro2@bellsouth.net <mailto:allpro2@bellsouth.net>
>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM
>> *Subject:* Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
>>
>> I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
>> Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
>> On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately
>> $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
>> The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine
>> already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that
>> a cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.
>> Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this
>> "stuff" out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what
>> additional costs, roughly for all of the other components involved
>> to make the Corvair work in the 601. In otherwords I am trying to
>> compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF
>> "package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to apples", but I
>> would like other's comments and rough costs involved.
>> Thanks for sharing....
>> Bill in central Florida
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
Heck, spend 35,000 bucks on a certified Lycoming aircraft engine and wai
t for the crack to break.....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com> wrote:
Bill, Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help
pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and th
e Jabiru for aircraft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto co
nversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru.
I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only
my opinion. However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer an
d company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)----- Original Message ----- From: allpro2@
bellsouth.net To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2
006 7:04 AMSubject: Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices. Lookin
g at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair. On the Zenith price
list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000. plus $3350 for the f
irewall forward package.The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the c
ompleted engine already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I
see that a cowling is available for approximately an additional $400. P
lease bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this "stuff" out
. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional costs, rough
ly for all of the other components involved to make the Corvair work in
the 601. In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of the Jabiru F
WF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to compare "app
les to apples", but I would like other's comments and rough costs involv
ed. Thanks for sharing.... Bill in central Florida
<html><P>Heck, spend 35,000 bucks on a certified Lycoming aircraft engin
e and wait for the crack to break..... </P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.
com> wrote:<BR></P>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style">Bill,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style"> Don't thi
nk I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help pointing out that
the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the Jabiru for aircra
ft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto conversions are
and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru. I would n
ot use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only my opini
on. However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer and co
mpany owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.</FO
NT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx<BR>Zodiac XL (Not too far along)</DIV
>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MA
RGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">
<B>From:</B> <A title=allpro2@bellsouth.net href="mailto:allpro2@bel
lsouth.net">allpro2@bellsouth.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=zenith-list@matron
ics.com href="mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com">zenith-list@matronics.
com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 05, 2006 7
:04 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Zenith-List: total engin
e costs involved???</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am thinking out loud about a 601XL.&n
bsp; Looking at engine choices.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it
to say the Corvair.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru co
mes in at approximately $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward pack
age.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Corvair from William Wynne, if you
buy the completed engine already built and modified costs approximately
$8000. I see that a cowling is available for approximately an addi
tional $400.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Please bear in mind that I am just tryi
ng to sort all of this "stuff" out. Those of you that have used th
e Corvair, what additional costs, roughly for all of the other component
s involved to make the Corvair work in the 601. In otherwords I am
trying to compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF
"package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to apples", but I would
like other's comments and rough costs involved.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for sharing....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bill in central Florida</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></html>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | total engine costs involved??? |
Bill,
Just so you're aware. When I asked Van's about the RV-12 at their open
house, I was told there was NO WAY they would be interested in putting
together a FWF for the Jabiru engine either,
as they (Van's) did not consider the Jabiru to be either proven, or a
mainstream engine. At this time they will support no engine other than the
Rotax 912, as it has been used in certified aircraft.
As an aside, the cost of a rebuilt to factory new limits O-235 and a Jabiru
or Rotax is roughly the same. The O-235 is probably a little lower. The
problem is the O-325 will eat about 90 lb's of your
gross weight.
By the way, the RV12 factory workmanship is beautiful, and it's pushrod
control so it will have that "RV" feeling. The wings are also a relatively
quick fold. I think Zenith will have a tough time selling
kits when the -12 comes out. The only disadvantage I see it the fuel tank
behind the seats. The fuel tank was put behind the seats to make the wing
folding easier.
Allen Ricks
Zodiac XL builder
Bill,
Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help
pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the
Jabiru for aircraft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto
conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru. I
would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only my
opinion. However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer and
company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
Opps... Make that CRANK....... not crack... do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com> wrote:
Bill, Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help
pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and th
e Jabiru for aircraft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto co
nversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru.
I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only
my opinion. However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer an
d company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
Zodiac XL (Not too far along)----- Original Message ----- From: allpro2@
bellsouth.net To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2
006 7:04 AMSubject: Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices. Lookin
g at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair. On the Zenith price
list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000. plus $3350 for the f
irewall forward package.The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the c
ompleted engine already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I
see that a cowling is available for approximately an additional $400. P
lease bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this "stuff" out
. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional costs, rough
ly for all of the other components involved to make the Corvair work in
the 601. In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of the Jabiru F
WF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to compare "app
les to apples", but I would like other's comments and rough costs involv
ed. Thanks for sharing.... Bill in central Florida
<html>Opps... Make that CRANK....... not crack... do not archive<BR><BR>
<BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair.com<BR><BR>-- "Robe
rt L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com> wrote:<BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style">Bill,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style"> Don't thi
nk I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help pointing out that
the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the Jabiru for aircra
ft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto conversions are
and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru. I would n
ot use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only my opini
on. However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer and co
mpany owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.</FO
NT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx<BR>Zodiac XL (Not too far along)</DIV
>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MA
RGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">
<B>From:</B> <A title=allpro2@bellsouth.net href="mailto:allpro2@bel
lsouth.net">allpro2@bellsouth.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=zenith-list@matron
ics.com href="mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com">zenith-list@matronics.
com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 05, 2006 7
:04 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Zenith-List: total engin
e costs involved???</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am thinking out loud about a 601XL.&n
bsp; Looking at engine choices.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it
to say the Corvair.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru co
mes in at approximately $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward pack
age.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Corvair from William Wynne, if you
buy the completed engine already built and modified costs approximately
$8000. I see that a cowling is available for approximately an addi
tional $400.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Please bear in mind that I am just tryi
ng to sort all of this "stuff" out. Those of you that have used th
e Corvair, what additional costs, roughly for all of the other component
s involved to make the Corvair work in the 601. In otherwords I am
trying to compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF
"package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to apples", but I would
like other's comments and rough costs involved.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for sharing....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bill in central Florida</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></html>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@n344rb.com>
I plan on it Kevin... I've already bought the O-235, it's in Michigan, I'm
in North Carolina. I plan to drive there on the 17th of this month to pick
it up... After that, I'll be on my way!
Thanks!
Randy
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 6:01 PM
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
>
> Sounds like a plan to me! Just do it.
>
> Kevin Bonds
> Nashville TN
> 601XL Plans building.
> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
> do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Bryant
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:07 PM
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@n344rb.com>
>
> I agree with most all of the points/arguments I've seen for different
> engine
>
> configurations discussed on this board. In my mind, my opinion, no auto
> conversion will be as 'good' (and there are many different definitions of
> what good is), as a "real aircraft engine". I had originally planned to
> go
> with the Corvair but still, even with the nitrided cranks, I'm scared of
> the
>
> crank failures from a safety perspective. I still would like the
> experience
>
> of building my own engine though. I've got quite a bit of engine building
> experience under my belt over the years and think I have 'goods upstairs'
> to
>
> accomplish this, as well as the tooling. For the things I don't have the
> tooling for, I have connections to folks who do.
>
> That being said, my plan IS to build my own engine. I'm just starting
> with
> a Lycoming O-235 core, as opposed to an auto engine. Let's face it,
> airplane engines are very basic engines. They were designed that way. My
> plan is bore my own cylinders. I have already made a torque plate to hold
> the cylinder jug at the proper tension while it's being bored. I have
> access to a good Sun Cylinder Hone to hone them to the final size. I plan
> on using J&E pistons. J&E will custom make a forged set of pistons in any
> configuration you can dream up for about $100 each. I have access to very
> competent machine shop that can rebuild the rods, and do other machining
> that might be done as well... There will be other parts I know I will
> have
> to buy as 'certified' parts, such as the cam, lifters and maybe main/rod
> bearings, gaskets...etc., but I can deal with that. I believe in the end,
> I
>
> can have a fresh "O-235" for less than $5K, including the cost of my core.
> I'm sure I would have ended up with $3K or more in a suitable Corvair.
> No,
> I know it won't be 'certified' anymore... neither is the airframe I'm
> hanging it on. Do I think I will have an engine that is just as reliable
> as
>
> a 'certified' engine... Yes, and because I've been inside it and know
> what's
>
> in it, and how it was done/assembled, in many ways I'll even feel better
> about it...to me that's 1/2 the battle.
>
> One guy told me today that without a 'certified' prop/engine
> configuration,
> I'd have a 40 hour fly off, rather than a 25 hour fly off... Who cares?
> I
> plan on flying it more than 40 hours anyways, so this really don't play a
> part...at least in my mind.
>
> At any rate, this is the plan I have in place for the engine that will be
> on
>
> my 601XL... I'll keep you posted on my progress and any snags I encounter
> along the way...
>
> Have fun and keep er' out of the trees,
>
> Randy Bryant
> XL - Wings - Plans Only
> http://www.n344rb.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:24 PM
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>>
>> Bob,
>> When you spend $60 to $75K for a homebuilt like the RV, you'd expect to
>> see a $25K+ engine powering it and the money is not at issue. Most RV
>> builders
>> are not interested in conversions. Using an automotive engine wouldn't
>> do
>
>> Van any good in the long run. He will sell you an engine and his choice
>> is going to
>> parallel commercial aircraft products. The Zenith people do the same
>> thing. An auto conversion has its own rewards besides being able to save
>> huge amounts
>> of cash. The objectives of knowing more about your engine and its
>> operation is key and essential for conversions. Few builders want more
>> than to bolt one on and
>> run it with the expectation of 1000 worry free hours. That's why the
>> margin between engine problems of the conversion and the production
>> commercial types
>> are so close.
>>
>> Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru
>>
>>
>> Robert L. Stone wrote:
>>
>>> Bill,
>>> Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help
>>> pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the
>>> Jabiru for aircraft. I have no idea how dependable any of the auto
>>> conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru.
>>> I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only
>>> my opinion. However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer and
>>> company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.
>>> Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
>>> Zodiac XL (Not too far along)
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* allpro2@bellsouth.net <mailto:allpro2@bellsouth.net>
>>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM
>>> *Subject:* Zenith-List: total engine costs involved???
>>>
>>> I am thinking out loud about a 601XL. Looking at engine choices.
>>> Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.
>>> On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately
>>> $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.
>>> The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine
>>> already built and modified costs approximately $8000. I see that
>>> a cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.
>>> Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this
>>> "stuff" out. Those of you that have used the Corvair, what
>>> additional costs, roughly for all of the other components involved
>>> to make the Corvair work in the 601. In otherwords I am trying to
>>> compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF
>>> "package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to apples", but I
>>> would like other's comments and rough costs involved.
>>> Thanks for sharing....
>>> Bill in central Florida
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>> http://wiki.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: total engine costs involved??? |
Hello Jay,
WW and ZAC are working hard about the FWF kit for the 601, I dont know if they
had it finished for Oskosh time but if not, they are close to have it,
In rough guess the FWF kit has to include: Cowling, cooling fence for the engine,
propeller, spinner, vernier for the thottle, oil cooler (if extra from engine)
engine mount, hoses for gasoline and oils systems and all the hardware involved.
This list can be incomplete.
What I can tell you first hand is that the FWF kit for our 701 (Rotax 912S) was
complete to the most little detail. We are very happy with it.
If you are planning to install this engine (Corvair) I am sure that the FWF kit
will be with everything needed, They need some time to study and double check
that the kits they sell will make any first time builder an expert.
I am also shure that Jon is going to work to come out with one of his wonderfull
DVD's about this Corvair engine instalation (Homebuilt Help) real soon...
Hope that you are still working in your airplane the enough time to wait for this
kits to be ready for the market.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Bill, I have the same question as you. What is the real
cost of the FWF with a Corvair engine? I'd also like to know if WW can supply
a FWF "kit." If not, what can he supply and what will need to be scrounged?
I've asked this question via e-mail, but have not gotten a reply. I'm hoping
someone on the forum can help.
I AM NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING ANYONE'S OPINION OF THE CORVAIR ENGINE, PERIOD!
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
Do not archive
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