Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:18 AM - Re: 701 seat belt attach (Gary Gower)
2. 12:32 AM - We've talked about the RV-12...... ()
3. 02:33 AM - Re: 701 Oil Canning Stiffeners (Dave Johnson)
4. 03:28 AM - BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) (Crvsecretary@aol.com)
5. 05:11 AM - Re: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) (Zodie Rocket)
6. 05:59 AM - Re: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) (LRM)
7. 07:30 AM - Re: Any Zenair CH2000 owners on the List? (steveadams)
8. 08:08 AM - Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? (Gig Giacona)
9. 08:11 AM - Zenair CH2000 exhaust systems, windows, & canopy covers? (TYA2)
10. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? (Michel Therrien)
11. 10:01 AM - Re: Changing face on LRI/AOA Gauge (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
12. 10:50 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 08/07/06 (alex trent)
13. 02:38 PM - Re: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) (Gary Gower)
14. 05:01 PM - Seat Belts and ultimate G's (Tommy Walker)
15. 05:38 PM - Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? compilation of answers (Dave Thompson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 701 seat belt attach |
I am no expert in accidents but have made a couple of search and rescue missions
and have talked to local experts a lot. This gives me some hints where to look.
I think this pilot got "get-down-itis" and just pointed to nose to the ground.
Maybe he tried or thinked to level for flare when the front wheel was about
an inch from the ground.
Look at the wing tips they just smashed to the ground, not a low speed stall,
because both wing tips are damaged very similar, The plane was flown to the ground,
also the distance where front wheel and the prop hub touched the ground
is only a few inches from the nose of the inverted plane.
Good thing that was the old and lighter 701 and (I think) was not going fast (40
mph or less maybe), but he just hit the ground at an angle (?)!. He was lucky
to survive (he is commenting the accident, another hint :-)...
Just my point of view, probably completly wrong. Please Do not archive.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
Chuck Deiterich <cffd@pgrb.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck
Deiterich"
NSTB report:
Meshko Zenair / CH-701, Subaru / EA 81 150TTB1
The pilot had just taken off and was climbing at 80 percent power (5,000
rpm) when he noticed the EGT rising "into redline 1,625 degrees F." He
leveled off, reduced power to 4,800 rpm, and reduced propeller pitch. EGT
stopped rising and came down slightly, but was still above redline. All
other engine indications were normal. EGT continued to rise and the engine
started losing power and was "running rough." The pilot tried to land at a
nearby airport, but was forced to make a landing in an open field. He said
he flared at the the last moment and hit the ground sharply. The nose wheel
broke off when it struck a tire track and the airplane nosed over. The
pilot, who also built the airplane, suspected detonation caused the rise in
EGT.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Monty Graves"
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 seat belt attach
> Here is a picture of the 701 plane crash that Chuck D. refers
to........N4386W
>
> And a picture of the seat belt attachment showing it pulled through.
>
> It was not Chuck's or my plane. I believe the plane was in Colorado at
the
> time
>
>
> Monty Graves
Do not archive
---------------------------------
Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo!
Groups.
Message 2
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| Subject: | We've talked about the RV-12...... |
Did any Airadventure attendees' go by and see the if the new Rans S-19
was on display?? How did it look compared to the 601XL and the mock up
RV-12??
Is this plane a contender? Randy S.'s planes always seem to have a nice
interior.
Bill in central Florida
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Oil Canning Stiffeners |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Johnson" <david_a_g_johnson@btinternet.com>
I am building from a CZAW kit and they show a diagonal stiffener between
each of the vertical stiffeners on the fuselage side. I have no idea what
effect they have, as I don't know what it is like without them.
Dave Johnson
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:37 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Oil Canning Stiffeners
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
>
> I remember seeing several notes about the desirability of adding some
> stiffeners in the fuselage sides, top and/or bottom to prevent or lessen
> any oil canning. I did a search of the list and didn't find anything
> specific, only a reference to a mod that someone did.
>
> I am at the point where I need to either add the stiffeners, or close up
> the fuselage. Has anyone not added some stiffeners and then found that
> they would have provided a significant improvement? Does anyone have some
> specific suggestions about where to add the stiffeners?
Message 4
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| Subject: | BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) |
The old R-60 and R-69 engines were slugs when viewed from the
horsepower/weight perspective....the only thing slower was the BMW single-cylinder
'thumpers' of the day. Wonderful styling and longevity (as long as you didn't
depend
on those lousy drum brakes), but the engines were not exactly strong enough
to consider for an airplane.
I also thought of the Goldwing 1800, but I suspect the weight takes it out
of the running as well. Does anyone know for sure what makes the Goldwing
engine unacceptable?
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
N458XL (reserved)
601XL
In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
NYTerminat@aol.com writes:
What about the Honda Goldwing 1800cc engine? Fuel injected, 6 cyl and sweet
running.
In a message dated 8/7/2006 3:21:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jhstarn@verizon.net writes:
Wonder why the BMW motorcycle (R-60, R-69) engines were not used to power
aircraft. I've also had an R-60 BMW M/C and with centerline thrust it would
seem to have been a natural. Do Not Archive KABONG
Message 5
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| Subject: | BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) |
Integral transmission and offset driveline. It could be done, we looked
at it many years ago with the GL1200 but the amount of work involved was
unacceptable for the final product.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL,
HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK
"http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK
"http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Crvsecretary@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 6:28 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt)
The old R-60 and R-69 engines were slugs when viewed from the
horsepower/weight perspective....the only thing slower was the BMW
single-cylinder 'thumpers' of the day. Wonderful styling and longevity
(as long as you didn't depend on those lousy drum brakes), but the
engines were not exactly strong enough to consider for an airplane.
I also thought of the Goldwing 1800, but I suspect the weight takes it
out of the running as well. Does anyone know for sure what makes the
Goldwing engine unacceptable?
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
N458XL (reserved)
601XL
In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
NYTerminat@aol.com writes:
What about the Honda Goldwing 1800cc engine? Fuel injected, 6 cyl and
sweet running.
In a message dated 8/7/2006 3:21:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jhstarn@verizon.net writes:
Wonder why the BMW motorcycle (R-60, R-69) engines were not used to
power aircraft. I've also had an R-60 BMW M/C and with centerline thrust
it would seem to have been a natural. Do Not Archive KABONG
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
--
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) |
The Goldwing has the transmission built into the crankcase, weighs a
ton. I have a friend who is rebuilding one. He plans to remove the
trans half and build a plate with an external oil pump and tank. Could
prove interesting, of course it could be all talk. He is one of these
"around to it" guys. But sometimes he surprises me.
Larry, N1345L www.skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Crvsecretary@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 5:27 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt)
The old R-60 and R-69 engines were slugs when viewed from the
horsepower/weight perspective....the only thing slower was the BMW
single-cylinder 'thumpers' of the day. Wonderful styling and longevity
(as long as you didn't depend on those lousy drum brakes), but the
engines were not exactly strong enough to consider for an airplane.
I also thought of the Goldwing 1800, but I suspect the weight takes it
out of the running as well. Does anyone know for sure what makes the
Goldwing engine unacceptable?
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
N458XL (reserved)
601XL
In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
NYTerminat@aol.com writes:
What about the Honda Goldwing 1800cc engine? Fuel injected, 6 cyl
and sweet running.
In a message dated 8/7/2006 3:21:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jhstarn@verizon.net writes:
Wonder why the BMW motorcycle (R-60, R-69) engines were not used
to power aircraft. I've also had an R-60 BMW M/C and with centerline
thrust it would seem to have been a natural. Do Not Archive KABONG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
No virus found in this incoming message.
8/2/2006
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Any Zenair CH2000 owners on the List? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
I have a CH640 which has an identical canopy to the Alarus. I know they changed
the canopy at some point when they started calling it an "Alarus" model, which
is similar to what I have. The windscreen and the door windows are plexiglass,
and the rear windows are lexan. I don't know if the earlier models had lexan
in the door. Lexan scratches really easily, and I would bet that they weren't
babied when used as a trainer. Mines only been flying for a little over a year,
but the windows don't have any sratches. I also am very careful when cleaning
the lexan because it is so soft. Being a certified plane, I think your options
might be pretty limited as far as replacing the lexan with plexiglass. I
don't think there is any difference between the plexi that they use for the windscreen
and door windows and what they use in other aircraft. In fact I think
they get them from LP Aeroplastics, which makes windows for numerous aircraft.
Changing out the rear windows is simple and cheap; I scratched one badly trying
to get some paint off it during the build and had to change it out. All you need
is a sheet of lexan cut to size and a handfull of rivets. The door windows
and windscreen would be a lot more work, since they are epoxied in place, and
need to be already formed to fit the aircraft. You might try calling LP Aeroplastics
to see if they do indeed carry the windows and windshield for the CH2000.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53339#53339
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
My answer is yes and no. I plan to buy one from WW. I wouldn't buy one built by
anyone else. Just so you know it isn't personal I would include GM in that "anyone
else" if they announced tomorrow that they were going to sell Corvair engines
as aircraft engines.
dave.thompson(at)verizon. wrote:
> If you do not like the Corvair as a flight engine, Please skip this message
>
> Guys,
>
> Last week I offered my Corvair engine core for sale. Since then, several people
have suggested that even though I am not building an airframe, that I should
still build the engine. If I do build the engine, I would also build a running
stand on a small trailer so I could test it. Most likely, I would build an
entire Firewall Forward package minus the cowling.
>
> IF you were considering Corvair power:
>
> Would you want to build it yourself?
>
> Would you consider purchasing a running engine on a stand with a log book and
assembly pictures? If not, why?
>
> I dont expect to make a profit on a running engine; I would just build it for
the experience. Does that scare you? Why?
>
>
> To the guys that have responded to the engine sale:
>
> I intend to wait until William Wynne comes back from vacation before I publish
a price if I sell. I asked him for a timeline for the back ordered parts that
I have paid for. (I told him to service the guys that are closer to flying before
me.) I want to have all the parts on-hand before I sell. Wouldnt you want
to get all your parts if you purchased my engine? Ill write all you guys off
list as things progress.
>
>
> Dave Thompson
> dave.thompson@verizon.net (dave.thompson@verizon.net)
> Westminster, CA
> Do not archive
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53358#53358
Message 9
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| Subject: | Zenair CH2000 exhaust systems, windows, & canopy covers? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: TYA2 <tya2@4-fly.net>
Dear Steve, & others,
After 2 weeks of 601 and 701 talk it is nice to hear from someone
talking about a CH2000 or a Ch640. My CH2000 is s/n 10 so it is very
early in the production run. I just got the bad news today from Zenair
Canada that I have to go a 1 piece exhaust system. I have been flying for
a long time and I hate those 1 piece systems. They are a pig to get off
because the induction system is in the way. In Canada we are always
having to pressure test them for leaks because of the cabin heat
system. A two piece system is easy to remove, only 1 side needs to be
checked and the system is much easier to work on.
Does anyone on the list have access to the right side exhaust
system, preferably undamaged and tagged serviceable?
Thanks to whoever posted the reference to the CH640 and its
relationship to the CH2000. I spent last evening going through the CH640
construction photos. Much of the door and window construction is
identical to the CH2000. There are a few exceptions and they relate to the
upper cabin and windows. I certainly wish I had a baggage compartment
rather than a shelf. I called Zenair in Midland today and they are going
to see what they have for early model CH2000 windows in stock. All 5 of
mine appear to have stress fractures when you look through them. The
factory said they are lexan and a different material than the new Alarus
windows.
The factory said the problem with windows has been UV light and
they offered a canopy cover at the beginning but didn't sell very many and
now no longer offer it for sale. I asked if they were available from
their supplier, they would have to see. Anyone else have a CH 2000 canopy
cover for sale? or that could be loaned out as a pattern? What about a
tow bar? Is there a CH2000 tow bar available? How much and from which
operation Midland, Mexico Missouri, or Georgia?
Thanks for your help
CH2000
Edmonton Alberta
At 07:28 AM 8/8/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
>
>I have a CH640 which has an identical canopy to the Alarus. I know they
>changed the canopy at some point when they started calling it an "Alarus"
>model, which is similar to what I have. The windscreen and the door
>windows are plexiglass, and the rear windows are lexan. I don't know if
>the earlier models had lexan in the door. Lexan scratches really easily,
>and I would bet that they weren't babied when used as a trainer. Mines
>only been flying for a little over a year, but the windows don't have any
>sratches. I also am very careful when cleaning the lexan because it is so
>soft. Being a certified plane, I think your options might be pretty
>limited as far as replacing the lexan with plexiglass. I don't think there
>is any difference between the plexi that they use for the windscreen and
>door windows and what they use in other aircraft. In fact I think they get
>them from LP Aeroplastics, which makes windows for numerous aircraft.
>
>Changing out the rear windows is simple and cheap; I scratched one badly
>trying to get some paint off it during the build and had to change it out.
>All you need is a sheet of lexan cut to size and a handfull of rivets. The
>door windows and windscreen would be a lot more work, since they are
>epoxied in place, and need to be already formed to fit the aircraft. You
>might try calling LP Aeroplastics to see if they do indeed carry the
>windows and windshield for the CH2000.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53339#53339
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I can understand that answer. When I rebuilt my
Subaru, I have seen several opportunities to buy
converted engines. But there were two things to
consider:
. I did not trust other rebuilders that had a
background similar to mine and with uncertain applied
skills and attention
. I wanted to go through the process myself
Now, I have a running and reliable Soob for sale;
complete fwf setup (including radiator mount, cowling,
carb, reduction, etc), very well documented, mostly
debugged and tuned, bunch of spare parts and spare
engine, absolutely no secret. And most importantly,
no one interested in it ;-)
I would say. If you want to go through building the
engine, fine, but it may be worth the price of the
core or a bit more.
Michel
--- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@cox.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona"
> <wr.giacona@cox.net>
>
> My answer is yes and no. I plan to buy one from WW.
> I wouldn't buy one built by anyone else. Just so you
> know it isn't personal
>
> dave.thompson(at)verizon. wrote:
> > If you do not like the Corvair as a flight engine,
> Please skip this message
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > Last week I ...
> >
> > Would you want to build it yourself?
> >
> > Would you consider purchasing a running engine on
> a stand with a log book and assembly pictures? If
> not, why?
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________________________
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Changing face on LRI/AOA Gauge |
George, so that the paper face lays flat and not have any peeks or valleys I
took Elmer's yellow glue, added a couple drops of water and brushed it on the
plate face smooth, let it set a couple moments and pushed on the paper face.
Best regards, Bill
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 08/07/06 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent <atrent7@cogeco.ca>
I owned 5 corvairs over the years. Never had a belt problem. I think it was a
matter of keeping the "keepers" properly set.
alex
> Time: 10:39:39 AM PST US
> From: Tom and Bren Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair belt
>
> It's still driven by a belt, Lycoming style. I sure wish people would at
least
> look into something before providing an opinion. Information is a great
> thing to share, but we all know what they say about opinions...
>
> JOHN STARN <jhstarn@verizon.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN
> STARN"
>
> GEE, ya know when I first made that comment about the "belt" I didn't
> identify what it looked like, what it was used for, where it was located,
> what its job was BUT it seems that EVERYBODY knew exactly what I was talking
> about.
> Could it be that EVERYONE who ever "drove" one had the same problem ?. Since
> I had the Spider with a 4-speed, all you had to do was over rev it a bit
> between gears & the belt was off. IMNSHO it was the twisting of the belt 90
> degrees four times for every revolution that was the root cause of the
> failures, not the fact that it was bent 90 degrees to connect the crankshaft
> pulley to the fan pulley.
> I bought one used to save on gas but soon I was back to driving my Corvette
> again.
> What does drive the alternator on the airborne version ?.
> KABONG Do Not Archive 8*)
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) |
I havent seen an exploded view diagram of the Goldwing engine, but most (almost
all) the modern motocycle engines have the transmission as part of the engine
block, this makes them useless.
If the engine trasmission is similar to the BMW (Clutch betwen them) could work.
Saludos
Gary Gower
1981 BMW 1000 To go flying :-)
Do not archive.
Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: The old R-60 and R-69 engines were slugs when
viewed from the horsepower/weight perspective....the only thing slower was the
BMW single-cylinder 'thumpers' of the day. Wonderful styling and longevity
(as long as you didn't depend on those lousy drum brakes), but the engines were
not exactly strong enough to consider for an airplane.
I also thought of the Goldwing 1800, but I suspect the weight takes it out of
the running as well. Does anyone know for sure what makes the Goldwing engine
unacceptable?
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
N458XL (reserved)
601XL
In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com
writes:
What about the Honda Goldwing 1800cc engine? Fuel injected, 6 cyl and
sweet running.
In a message dated 8/7/2006 3:21:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhstarn@verizon.net
writes:
Wonder why the BMW motorcycle (R-60, R-69) engines were not used to power
aircraft. I've also had an R-60 BMW M/C and with centerline thrust it
would seem to have been a natural. Do Not Archive KABONG
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Seat Belts and ultimate G's |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
The recent talk about Seat Belts and failure was very interesting.
I am reading AC90-89A (hey, I'm stuck in a motel in Starkville, MS, what do you
expect?).
Anywho, I thought I would quote this from the above FAA doc.
"Each seat belt and shoulder harness mounting hard point should be built to the
designer's specifications to ensure that it will hold the harness and pilot in
the aircraft at the ultimate design "G" load specification, both positive and
negative, for the aircraft."
I am adding the advisory as an attachment.
Food for thought.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
N8701 85%????
--------
Tommy Walker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53508#53508
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ac_90_89a_amateur_built_aircraft_and_ultralight_flight_testi_986.pdf
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? compilation |
of answers
Thanks guys for your responses.
I got a great deal of information and would like to share it with you. The
statements in quotes are copied from a variety of responses.
Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine?
1. Documentation must be VERY complete.
2. "No practical amount of documentation can show ALL the steps where an
error could be made." (So true!)
3. "I know nothing of your mechanical ability." (That hurts, but you're
right, you don't know me!)
4. "I know nothing of your integrity." (That hurts, but you're right, you
don't know me!)
5. "There is also a financial motive to show your engine in its best
light." (True, but that's not my intent. However, you don't know that.)
6. "I would need to personally see a compression check on all cylinders."
(You'd be an idiot if you didn't.)
7. There could be a great deal of liability, even with a proper release
statement. (EEEEK!)
8. Any sales price would be less than a professionally built WW engine. (I
would not build it for the profit margin, but you've got a point.)
Very interesting comments!
I agree with all of them. With this in mind, I will NOT build the engine. I
intend to sell it as parts and let the buyer build it as he likes. I will
wait until I hear from William about my back ordered parts. I understand
that he will be on Vacation the rest of August. I will then write all you
guys that e-mailed me off list with a parts list and starting price. Watch
for it around the beginning of September. If you haven't written me off list
and are interested, write me off list so I can add you to my "potential
buyer's list".
Dave Thompson
dave.thompson@verizon.net
Westminster, CA
Do not archive
P. S. Raymond, You didn't insult me. You answered the question honestly.
That's what I wanted, Thanks.
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