---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/08/06: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:18 AM - Re: 701 seat belt attach (Gary Gower) 2. 12:32 AM - We've talked about the RV-12...... () 3. 02:33 AM - Re: 701 Oil Canning Stiffeners (Dave Johnson) 4. 03:28 AM - BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 5. 05:11 AM - Re: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) (Zodie Rocket) 6. 05:59 AM - Re: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) (LRM) 7. 07:30 AM - Re: Any Zenair CH2000 owners on the List? (steveadams) 8. 08:08 AM - Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? (Gig Giacona) 9. 08:11 AM - Zenair CH2000 exhaust systems, windows, & canopy covers? (TYA2) 10. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? (Michel Therrien) 11. 10:01 AM - Re: Changing face on LRI/AOA Gauge (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 12. 10:50 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 08/07/06 (alex trent) 13. 02:38 PM - Re: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) (Gary Gower) 14. 05:01 PM - Seat Belts and ultimate G's (Tommy Walker) 15. 05:38 PM - Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? compilation of answers (Dave Thompson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:25 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 seat belt attach I am no expert in accidents but have made a couple of search and rescue missions and have talked to local experts a lot. This gives me some hints where to look. I think this pilot got "get-down-itis" and just pointed to nose to the ground. Maybe he tried or thinked to level for flare when the front wheel was about an inch from the ground. Look at the wing tips they just smashed to the ground, not a low speed stall, because both wing tips are damaged very similar, The plane was flown to the ground, also the distance where front wheel and the prop hub touched the ground is only a few inches from the nose of the inverted plane. Good thing that was the old and lighter 701 and (I think) was not going fast (40 mph or less maybe), but he just hit the ground at an angle (?)!. He was lucky to survive (he is commenting the accident, another hint :-)... Just my point of view, probably completly wrong. Please Do not archive. Saludos Gary Gower. Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Chuck Deiterich wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" NSTB report: Meshko Zenair / CH-701, Subaru / EA 81 150TTB1 The pilot had just taken off and was climbing at 80 percent power (5,000 rpm) when he noticed the EGT rising "into redline 1,625 degrees F." He leveled off, reduced power to 4,800 rpm, and reduced propeller pitch. EGT stopped rising and came down slightly, but was still above redline. All other engine indications were normal. EGT continued to rise and the engine started losing power and was "running rough." The pilot tried to land at a nearby airport, but was forced to make a landing in an open field. He said he flared at the the last moment and hit the ground sharply. The nose wheel broke off when it struck a tire track and the airplane nosed over. The pilot, who also built the airplane, suspected detonation caused the rise in EGT. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monty Graves" Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 5:15 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 seat belt attach > Here is a picture of the 701 plane crash that Chuck D. refers to........N4386W > > And a picture of the seat belt attachment showing it pulled through. > > It was not Chuck's or my plane. I believe the plane was in Colorado at the > time > > > Monty Graves Do not archive --------------------------------- Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:24 AM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: We've talked about the RV-12...... Did any Airadventure attendees' go by and see the if the new Rans S-19 was on display?? How did it look compared to the 601XL and the mock up RV-12?? Is this plane a contender? Randy S.'s planes always seem to have a nice interior. Bill in central Florida ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:30 AM PST US From: "Dave Johnson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Oil Canning Stiffeners --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Johnson" I am building from a CZAW kit and they show a diagonal stiffener between each of the vertical stiffeners on the fuselage side. I have no idea what effect they have, as I don't know what it is like without them. Dave Johnson do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "doug kandle" Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:37 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Oil Canning Stiffeners > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" > > I remember seeing several notes about the desirability of adding some > stiffeners in the fuselage sides, top and/or bottom to prevent or lessen > any oil canning. I did a search of the list and didn't find anything > specific, only a reference to a mod that someone did. > > I am at the point where I need to either add the stiffeners, or close up > the fuselage. Has anyone not added some stiffeners and then found that > they would have provided a significant improvement? Does anyone have some > specific suggestions about where to add the stiffeners? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:54 AM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) The old R-60 and R-69 engines were slugs when viewed from the horsepower/weight perspective....the only thing slower was the BMW single-cylinder 'thumpers' of the day. Wonderful styling and longevity (as long as you didn't depend on those lousy drum brakes), but the engines were not exactly strong enough to consider for an airplane. I also thought of the Goldwing 1800, but I suspect the weight takes it out of the running as well. Does anyone know for sure what makes the Goldwing engine unacceptable? Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT N458XL (reserved) 601XL In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: What about the Honda Goldwing 1800cc engine? Fuel injected, 6 cyl and sweet running. In a message dated 8/7/2006 3:21:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhstarn@verizon.net writes: Wonder why the BMW motorcycle (R-60, R-69) engines were not used to power aircraft. I've also had an R-60 BMW M/C and with centerline thrust it would seem to have been a natural. Do Not Archive KABONG ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:58 AM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) Integral transmission and offset driveline. It could be done, we looked at it many years ago with the GL1200 but the amount of work involved was unacceptable for the final product. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Crvsecretary@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 6:28 AM Subject: Zenith-List: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) The old R-60 and R-69 engines were slugs when viewed from the horsepower/weight perspective....the only thing slower was the BMW single-cylinder 'thumpers' of the day. Wonderful styling and longevity (as long as you didn't depend on those lousy drum brakes), but the engines were not exactly strong enough to consider for an airplane. I also thought of the Goldwing 1800, but I suspect the weight takes it out of the running as well. Does anyone know for sure what makes the Goldwing engine unacceptable? Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT N458XL (reserved) 601XL In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: What about the Honda Goldwing 1800cc engine? Fuel injected, 6 cyl and sweet running. In a message dated 8/7/2006 3:21:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhstarn@verizon.net writes: Wonder why the BMW motorcycle (R-60, R-69) engines were not used to power aircraft. I've also had an R-60 BMW M/C and with centerline thrust it would seem to have been a natural. Do Not Archive KABONG -- No virus found in this incoming message. -- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:21 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) The Goldwing has the transmission built into the crankcase, weighs a ton. I have a friend who is rebuilding one. He plans to remove the trans half and build a plate with an external oil pump and tank. Could prove interesting, of course it could be all talk. He is one of these "around to it" guys. But sometimes he surprises me. Larry, N1345L www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Crvsecretary@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 5:27 AM Subject: Zenith-List: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) The old R-60 and R-69 engines were slugs when viewed from the horsepower/weight perspective....the only thing slower was the BMW single-cylinder 'thumpers' of the day. Wonderful styling and longevity (as long as you didn't depend on those lousy drum brakes), but the engines were not exactly strong enough to consider for an airplane. I also thought of the Goldwing 1800, but I suspect the weight takes it out of the running as well. Does anyone know for sure what makes the Goldwing engine unacceptable? Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT N458XL (reserved) 601XL In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: What about the Honda Goldwing 1800cc engine? Fuel injected, 6 cyl and sweet running. In a message dated 8/7/2006 3:21:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhstarn@verizon.net writes: Wonder why the BMW motorcycle (R-60, R-69) engines were not used to power aircraft. I've also had an R-60 BMW M/C and with centerline thrust it would seem to have been a natural. Do Not Archive KABONG ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No virus found in this incoming message. 8/2/2006 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:12 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Any Zenair CH2000 owners on the List? From: "steveadams" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" I have a CH640 which has an identical canopy to the Alarus. I know they changed the canopy at some point when they started calling it an "Alarus" model, which is similar to what I have. The windscreen and the door windows are plexiglass, and the rear windows are lexan. I don't know if the earlier models had lexan in the door. Lexan scratches really easily, and I would bet that they weren't babied when used as a trainer. Mines only been flying for a little over a year, but the windows don't have any sratches. I also am very careful when cleaning the lexan because it is so soft. Being a certified plane, I think your options might be pretty limited as far as replacing the lexan with plexiglass. I don't think there is any difference between the plexi that they use for the windscreen and door windows and what they use in other aircraft. In fact I think they get them from LP Aeroplastics, which makes windows for numerous aircraft. Changing out the rear windows is simple and cheap; I scratched one badly trying to get some paint off it during the build and had to change it out. All you need is a sheet of lexan cut to size and a handfull of rivets. The door windows and windscreen would be a lot more work, since they are epoxied in place, and need to be already formed to fit the aircraft. You might try calling LP Aeroplastics to see if they do indeed carry the windows and windshield for the CH2000. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53339#53339 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" My answer is yes and no. I plan to buy one from WW. I wouldn't buy one built by anyone else. Just so you know it isn't personal I would include GM in that "anyone else" if they announced tomorrow that they were going to sell Corvair engines as aircraft engines. dave.thompson(at)verizon. wrote: > If you do not like the Corvair as a flight engine, Please skip this message > > Guys, > > Last week I offered my Corvair engine core for sale. Since then, several people have suggested that even though I am not building an airframe, that I should still build the engine. If I do build the engine, I would also build a running stand on a small trailer so I could test it. Most likely, I would build an entire Firewall Forward package minus the cowling. > > IF you were considering Corvair power: > > Would you want to build it yourself? > > Would you consider purchasing a running engine on a stand with a log book and assembly pictures? If not, why? > > I dont expect to make a profit on a running engine; I would just build it for the experience. Does that scare you? Why? > > > To the guys that have responded to the engine sale: > > I intend to wait until William Wynne comes back from vacation before I publish a price if I sell. I asked him for a timeline for the back ordered parts that I have paid for. (I told him to service the guys that are closer to flying before me.) I want to have all the parts on-hand before I sell. Wouldnt you want to get all your parts if you purchased my engine? Ill write all you guys off list as things progress. > > > Dave Thompson > dave.thompson@verizon.net (dave.thompson@verizon.net) > Westminster, CA > Do not archive -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53358#53358 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:12 AM PST US From: TYA2 Subject: Zenith-List: Zenair CH2000 exhaust systems, windows, & canopy covers? --> Zenith-List message posted by: TYA2 Dear Steve, & others, After 2 weeks of 601 and 701 talk it is nice to hear from someone talking about a CH2000 or a Ch640. My CH2000 is s/n 10 so it is very early in the production run. I just got the bad news today from Zenair Canada that I have to go a 1 piece exhaust system. I have been flying for a long time and I hate those 1 piece systems. They are a pig to get off because the induction system is in the way. In Canada we are always having to pressure test them for leaks because of the cabin heat system. A two piece system is easy to remove, only 1 side needs to be checked and the system is much easier to work on. Does anyone on the list have access to the right side exhaust system, preferably undamaged and tagged serviceable? Thanks to whoever posted the reference to the CH640 and its relationship to the CH2000. I spent last evening going through the CH640 construction photos. Much of the door and window construction is identical to the CH2000. There are a few exceptions and they relate to the upper cabin and windows. I certainly wish I had a baggage compartment rather than a shelf. I called Zenair in Midland today and they are going to see what they have for early model CH2000 windows in stock. All 5 of mine appear to have stress fractures when you look through them. The factory said they are lexan and a different material than the new Alarus windows. The factory said the problem with windows has been UV light and they offered a canopy cover at the beginning but didn't sell very many and now no longer offer it for sale. I asked if they were available from their supplier, they would have to see. Anyone else have a CH 2000 canopy cover for sale? or that could be loaned out as a pattern? What about a tow bar? Is there a CH2000 tow bar available? How much and from which operation Midland, Mexico Missouri, or Georgia? Thanks for your help CH2000 Edmonton Alberta At 07:28 AM 8/8/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" > >I have a CH640 which has an identical canopy to the Alarus. I know they >changed the canopy at some point when they started calling it an "Alarus" >model, which is similar to what I have. The windscreen and the door >windows are plexiglass, and the rear windows are lexan. I don't know if >the earlier models had lexan in the door. Lexan scratches really easily, >and I would bet that they weren't babied when used as a trainer. Mines >only been flying for a little over a year, but the windows don't have any >sratches. I also am very careful when cleaning the lexan because it is so >soft. Being a certified plane, I think your options might be pretty >limited as far as replacing the lexan with plexiglass. I don't think there >is any difference between the plexi that they use for the windscreen and >door windows and what they use in other aircraft. In fact I think they get >them from LP Aeroplastics, which makes windows for numerous aircraft. > >Changing out the rear windows is simple and cheap; I scratched one badly >trying to get some paint off it during the build and had to change it out. >All you need is a sheet of lexan cut to size and a handfull of rivets. The >door windows and windscreen would be a lot more work, since they are >epoxied in place, and need to be already formed to fit the aircraft. You >might try calling LP Aeroplastics to see if they do indeed carry the >windows and windshield for the CH2000. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53339#53339 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:36 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I can understand that answer. When I rebuilt my Subaru, I have seen several opportunities to buy converted engines. But there were two things to consider: . I did not trust other rebuilders that had a background similar to mine and with uncertain applied skills and attention . I wanted to go through the process myself Now, I have a running and reliable Soob for sale; complete fwf setup (including radiator mount, cowling, carb, reduction, etc), very well documented, mostly debugged and tuned, bunch of spare parts and spare engine, absolutely no secret. And most importantly, no one interested in it ;-) I would say. If you want to go through building the engine, fine, but it may be worth the price of the core or a bit more. Michel --- Gig Giacona wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > > > My answer is yes and no. I plan to buy one from WW. > I wouldn't buy one built by anyone else. Just so you > know it isn't personal > > dave.thompson(at)verizon. wrote: > > If you do not like the Corvair as a flight engine, > Please skip this message > > > > Guys, > > > > Last week I ... > > > > Would you want to build it yourself? > > > > Would you consider purchasing a running engine on > a stand with a log book and assembly pictures? If > not, why? ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:42 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Changing face on LRI/AOA Gauge George, so that the paper face lays flat and not have any peeks or valleys I took Elmer's yellow glue, added a couple drops of water and brushed it on the plate face smooth, let it set a couple moments and pushed on the paper face. Best regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:31 AM PST US From: alex trent Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 08/07/06 --> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent I owned 5 corvairs over the years. Never had a belt problem. I think it was a matter of keeping the "keepers" properly set. alex > Time: 10:39:39 AM PST US > From: Tom and Bren Henderson > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair belt > > It's still driven by a belt, Lycoming style. I sure wish people would at least > look into something before providing an opinion. Information is a great > thing to share, but we all know what they say about opinions... > > JOHN STARN wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN > STARN" > > GEE, ya know when I first made that comment about the "belt" I didn't > identify what it looked like, what it was used for, where it was located, > what its job was BUT it seems that EVERYBODY knew exactly what I was talking > about. > Could it be that EVERYONE who ever "drove" one had the same problem ?. Since > I had the Spider with a 4-speed, all you had to do was over rev it a bit > between gears & the belt was off. IMNSHO it was the twisting of the belt 90 > degrees four times for every revolution that was the root cause of the > failures, not the fact that it was bent 90 degrees to connect the crankshaft > pulley to the fan pulley. > I bought one used to save on gas but soon I was back to driving my Corvette > again. > What does drive the alternator on the airborne version ?. > KABONG Do Not Archive 8*) > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:43 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: BMW & Honda M/C engines (was:Corvair belt) I havent seen an exploded view diagram of the Goldwing engine, but most (almost all) the modern motocycle engines have the transmission as part of the engine block, this makes them useless. If the engine trasmission is similar to the BMW (Clutch betwen them) could work. Saludos Gary Gower 1981 BMW 1000 To go flying :-) Do not archive. Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: The old R-60 and R-69 engines were slugs when viewed from the horsepower/weight perspective....the only thing slower was the BMW single-cylinder 'thumpers' of the day. Wonderful styling and longevity (as long as you didn't depend on those lousy drum brakes), but the engines were not exactly strong enough to consider for an airplane. I also thought of the Goldwing 1800, but I suspect the weight takes it out of the running as well. Does anyone know for sure what makes the Goldwing engine unacceptable? Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT N458XL (reserved) 601XL In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: What about the Honda Goldwing 1800cc engine? Fuel injected, 6 cyl and sweet running. In a message dated 8/7/2006 3:21:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhstarn@verizon.net writes: Wonder why the BMW motorcycle (R-60, R-69) engines were not used to power aircraft. I've also had an R-60 BMW M/C and with centerline thrust it would seem to have been a natural. Do Not Archive KABONG --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:24 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Seat Belts and ultimate G's From: "Tommy Walker" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" The recent talk about Seat Belts and failure was very interesting. I am reading AC90-89A (hey, I'm stuck in a motel in Starkville, MS, what do you expect?). Anywho, I thought I would quote this from the above FAA doc. "Each seat belt and shoulder harness mounting hard point should be built to the designer's specifications to ensure that it will hold the harness and pilot in the aircraft at the ultimate design "G" load specification, both positive and negative, for the aircraft." I am adding the advisory as an attachment. Food for thought. Tommy Walker in Alabama N8701 85%???? -------- Tommy Walker Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53508#53508 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ac_90_89a_amateur_built_aircraft_and_ultralight_flight_testi_986.pdf ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:45 PM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? compilation of answers Thanks guys for your responses. I got a great deal of information and would like to share it with you. The statements in quotes are copied from a variety of responses. Would you purchase a running Corvair flight engine? 1. Documentation must be VERY complete. 2. "No practical amount of documentation can show ALL the steps where an error could be made." (So true!) 3. "I know nothing of your mechanical ability." (That hurts, but you're right, you don't know me!) 4. "I know nothing of your integrity." (That hurts, but you're right, you don't know me!) 5. "There is also a financial motive to show your engine in its best light." (True, but that's not my intent. However, you don't know that.) 6. "I would need to personally see a compression check on all cylinders." (You'd be an idiot if you didn't.) 7. There could be a great deal of liability, even with a proper release statement. (EEEEK!) 8. Any sales price would be less than a professionally built WW engine. (I would not build it for the profit margin, but you've got a point.) Very interesting comments! I agree with all of them. With this in mind, I will NOT build the engine. I intend to sell it as parts and let the buyer build it as he likes. I will wait until I hear from William about my back ordered parts. I understand that he will be on Vacation the rest of August. I will then write all you guys that e-mailed me off list with a parts list and starting price. Watch for it around the beginning of September. If you haven't written me off list and are interested, write me off list so I can add you to my "potential buyer's list". Dave Thompson dave.thompson@verizon.net Westminster, CA Do not archive P. S. Raymond, You didn't insult me. You answered the question honestly. That's what I wanted, Thanks.