---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/10/06: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:19 AM - Re: Introducing Myself (Rick R) 2. 04:14 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/09/06 (Matt Stecher) 3. 04:35 AM - Re: Introducing Myself (Edward Moody II) 4. 04:49 AM - Re: Introducing Myself (Robin Bellach) 5. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/09/06 (Paul Mulwitz) 6. 06:05 AM - Re: Introducing Myself (William Dominguez) 7. 06:15 AM - Re: Introducing (Welded Parts) (N5SL) 8. 06:41 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/09/06 (Gig Giacona) 9. 06:43 AM - Re: Introducing (Welded Parts) (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 10. 06:45 AM - Re: (Robert L. Stone) 11. 06:46 AM - Welded parts (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 12. 07:06 AM - Re: Introducing (Welded Parts) (Paul Mulwitz) 13. 08:31 AM - Re: (Gig Giacona) 14. 11:13 AM - Re: Introducing Myself (Clyde Barcus) 15. 02:35 PM - Economical Low Pressure Air System (LarryMcFarland) 16. 02:44 PM - 601XL tank improvement () 17. 03:29 PM - Re: 601XL tank improvement (Michael Valentine) 18. 03:42 PM - Re: 601XL tank improvement (Tom and Bren Henderson) 19. 05:29 PM - Center console vs dual sticks (Jaybannist@cs.com) 20. 05:42 PM - Re: Center console vs dual sticks (Craig Payne) 21. 06:22 PM - Polished Aluminum (neitzel) 22. 06:42 PM - Re: Center console vs dual sticks (Jaybannist@cs.com) 23. 06:59 PM - RE : Polished Aluminum (Carlos Sa) 24. 07:05 PM - Re: Center console vs dual sticks (Craig Payne) 25. 07:37 PM - Steve Adams'Zenair Zodiac CH640 (Christian Tremblay) 26. 09:05 PM - Re: Re: 701 Oil Canning Stiffeners701 Oil Canning Stiffeners (Randy L. Thwing) 27. 09:11 PM - Re: Introducing (Welded Parts) (Zodie Rocket) 28. 09:21 PM - Rudder skin bending technique (Larry Winger) 29. 09:25 PM - Re: Introducing (Welded Parts) (LHusky@aol.com) 30. 09:41 PM - Re: Rudder skin bending technique (Tom and Bren Henderson) 31. 09:48 PM - Re: Introducing (Welded Parts) (JOHN STARN) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:52 AM PST US From: Rick R Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing Myself Welcome Matt and strap yourself in. You'll learn more about domed rivet Vs bucked, red Scotchbrite Vs green, to oil can or not to oil can, Corvair Vs Allison V-12 you get the picture. Wouldn't trade it for anything ! ! Hope to meet you at Sun & Fun. These are a great bunch of folks with a lot of knowledge. Enjoy and DO NOT ARCHIVE. Matt Stecher wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt Stecher" Hello Everyone, I am new to the list and the Zenith world and was just chiming in to say hello to everyone. I live on the West side of Houston Texas in Katy. Thanks in advance for all your help, Matt Stecher Rick Sharpsburg, GA. USA http://www.n701rr.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:50 AM PST US From: "Matt Stecher" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/09/06 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt Stecher" Thanks to everyone who responded and I would also like to add that if anyone is relatively close and finds they need a second hand with something please just let me know. I can use it as an excuse to get a good ride in and also get a little experience. A few questions were posed as well, but only this one needs any answer after others beat me to it. > Second, I must ask why you don't want to get the Sport Pilot > certificate along the way to your Private. It allows you to carry > passengers and do most of the stuff you can do with a Private Licence > anyway. Perhaps you can find a nice pretty young lady to go on the > long cross country flights you must do to qualify for the > Private. Sometimes, cross country flying can get pretty boring. The closest Sport Pilot training center is in Denton Texas about 5 hours north of me. I have met an instructor that is on the East side of Houston, but he is still two hours away and I would need to buy a plane for him to train me. So I guess my reason deals mostly with the last of local infrastructure. Take care, Matt ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:52 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing Myself Odd coincidence here..... I'm a general dentist. For me, clean hands are how my pockets get less empty. Go figure. Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom and Bren Henderson I'd rather have dirty hands than an empty pocketbook any day! :) Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:27 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing Myself --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" > First, which parts on the Zodiac are welded? I am a kit builder rather > than scratch, so I suppose the factory does all the welding I need. > Still, I am nearly completed with my XL and I haven't seen any welded > parts yet. I'm a kit builder too, but can't imagine how someone could build from a kit and not notice the numerous welded parts in the control system, canopy, main gear attachment, engine attachement, fuel tanks, etc. If it wasn't for all the welding and my total lack of skill in that area I probably would have scratch built. Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:11 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/09/06 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Matt, Thanks for the reply on Sport Pilot certificate problems. I wonder if you are missing something on this issue, but I am sure you are correct about the difficulty of obtaining a Light Sport Aircraft for training. If you have a medical certificate, then I am not sure you need to do any training in an LSA to get a Sport Pilot certificate. I know that sounds crazy, but it is the pilot learning that is the issue rather than the type of aircraft the learning takes place in. I suppose it would be appropriate to take the Sport Pilot practical test in an airplane that qualifies as LSA, but I am not sure that is even required. I know I am exposing my ignorance on this subject. I am not on the same end of the Sport Pilot issue as you are. I already have a Private license and intend to use the new rules to fly without a medical certificate. That means I really do suffer from lack of LSA available for rental and training since I can't legally fly as pilot in command of an airplane that doesn't qualify. However, I was under the impression that the training and testing for actual Sport Pilot certificates was nearly the same as Private Pilot certificate except there are a few specific areas not covered including night flying, instrument flying, and operations at controlled airports. That leads me to believe you could do all the training (most of the training?) in aircraft such as a C-152 to qualify for the Sport Pilot certificate. I am quite sure you don't need a special instructor to qualify for the Sport Pilot certificate. Any CFI is qualified to provide the flight instruction needed for any certificate through the Commercial license. The special issues arise when it comes to solo flights performed by a student. Paul XL fuselage do not archive >The closest Sport Pilot training center is in Denton Texas about 5 >hours north of me. I have met an instructor that is on the East >side of Houston, but he is still two hours away and I would need to >buy a plane for him to train me. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:16 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing Myself --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Hi Matt, Welcome to the list. Im also a 601XL scratch builder planning to hang a Corvair in the front, I already have my core and the WW manual but Im working in the airframe for now. A very important piece of advice that Im sure I wont be the only one telling you, download the part layout from www.ch601.org and cut your sheet metal according to this. If you do this, you will save a lot of money. This might surprise some kit builders but if you scratch build the 601XL based on this part layout, all the sheet metal needed to build the 601XL will come around $2,000. Add $500 to $1,000 for more materials to cover damaged parts plus another $2,000 for extrusions, tubes, hardware, rivets and you can get your airframe for about $5,000. I know this because Im currently working in my second big material order and I already budgeted for the third and final one. Based on Yarde metals quotes, after I have purchased all the materials I would have spent around $2.000 in sheet metal, including shipping and handling. I was originally planning to buy the materials as I need them but I changed my mind and now Im planning to buy all remaining sheet metal before the end of October. The reason behind is that the price of the material is rising uncomfortably fast. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans www.ea-report.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:26 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing (Welded Parts) --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Paul M. you kill me. I had the same "nearly done" attitude over a year ago. See a few examples below of welded parts for the 601XL: Nose gear: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_12_04_flange2.JPG http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_05_04_NoseGear2.JPG http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_07_04_UpperBearing.JPG Step support: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_06_05_Step1.jpg Gas Strut supports for canopy: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_28_05_GasSpringHinge.jpg Engine mounts: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/7_24_04_BulkheadParts.JPG Gear Attachments: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/8_26_04_GearAttachJig.JPG Flap parts: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_21_04_Flaps.JPG http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_17_04_FlapBracket2.JPG A box of misc. parts: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_02_05_PlatingParts.jpg Canopy latches and frame: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/6_6_06_Canopy_Latch1.JPG Steps: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_7_05_Steps.jpg Engine mount bed: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_10_05_Bed.JPG Engine Mount: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_9_05_EngineMount.jpg Starter Brackets: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/8_3_06_Starter_Bracket2.JPG This is why I know how many welded parts there are: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_05_04_Welding.JPG I'm sure I left out a few but thats a sampling. Scott Laughlin Omaha, Nebraska (formerly of Katy, Texas) 601XL - 90% done and 90% to go http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ --- Paul Mulwitz wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > I guess I am one of those guys who always asks nosy > questions. > First, which parts on the Zodiac are welded? ... Still, I am nearly completed with my XL and I haven't seen any welded parts yet. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/09/06 From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" While you can take your LSA training in a C-150 you can't do the practical test in a C-150 because it doesn't qualify. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53855#53855 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:03 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing (Welded Parts) How can you be "nearly done" and not seen a welded part yet ? Seems strange. You are building a 601XL right ? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary, According to the policy information I received from Falcon Insurance Agency, the required time is two hours prior to solo. Bob Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 12:44 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hello Bob, Your town is a good size "dot", it does apears very well in Google Earth with good definition, probably you can easy find your house... Just plain curious... How many time (in hours) are need? Just to learn something new. You didnt mention it. Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. 701 912S Building a 601 XL kit. Do not archive. "Robert L. Stone" wrote: Members, The insurance company (Falcon) says that I must have time in a Zodiac before they will insure me. My question now is, is anyone a reasonable distance from me who ownes a completed Zodiac 601 willing to let me fly their aircraft from either the left or right seat with them along of course so I can qualify for insurance. I live in Central Texas close fo Fort Hood. The small town I live in is just a dot on the map and the closest town of any size is Killeen, It's half way between Lampasas and Temple. I am willing to pay for wear and tear on your airplane, fuel, and your time, Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:32 AM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Welded parts <>>> What plane are YOU building?????? Dave ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:29 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing (Welded Parts) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz OK, OK, I stand corrected. I have been building from sub-kits and have not yet reached the canopy, gear, controls, or FWF. I did forget about the welded fuel tanks. (Indeed my memory is so lousy I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday either.) I promise I will never make any more stupid mistakes again. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 06:13 AM 8/10/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > >Paul M. you kill me. I had the same "nearly done" >attitude over a year ago. See a few examples below of >welded parts for the 601XL: >Nose gear: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_12_04_flange2.JPG >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_05_04_NoseGear2.JPG >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_07_04_UpperBearing.JPG >Step support: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_06_05_Step1.jpg >Gas Strut supports for canopy: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_28_05_GasSpringHinge.jpg >Engine mounts: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/7_24_04_BulkheadParts.JPG >Gear Attachments: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/8_26_04_GearAttachJig.JPG >Flap parts: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_21_04_Flaps.JPG >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_17_04_FlapBracket2.JPG >A box of misc. parts: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_02_05_PlatingParts.jpg >Canopy latches and frame: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/6_6_06_Canopy_Latch1.JPG >Steps: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_7_05_Steps.jpg >Engine mount bed: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_10_05_Bed.JPG >Engine Mount: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_9_05_EngineMount.jpg >Starter Brackets: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/8_3_06_Starter_Bracket2.JPG >This is why I know how many welded parts there are: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_05_04_Welding.JPG > >I'm sure I left out a few but thats a sampling. > >Scott Laughlin >Omaha, Nebraska >(formerly of Katy, Texas) >601XL - 90% done and 90% to go >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" Whn I got a quote they only required that I have 2 or 3 hours in the previous 90 days in A-SEL. I have ~350 hrs ASEL and 40 R-H [quote="rstone4(at)hot.rr.com"]Gary, According to the0 policy information I received from Falcon Insurance Agency, the required time is0 two hours prior to solo. Bob Stone > --- -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53871#53871 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:50 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing Myself --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" Hi Matt: Welcome to the group. I am one of the guys taking the short route (Kit Built) however, one of my friends is scratch building and I think he will be flying before me. I am building the 601XL, Corvair Powered, and I am down to the fuselage, hopefully it won't be long now. I finished rebuilding my engine after attending Corvair College, I am using most of William's components. I just need to buy a carb, wires and plugs and I would be ready to start it. I am in the Houston area every few weeks, do you think your chapter would mind a visitor from chapter 1343? It sure would be more interesting than sitting in a hotel. Clyde Barcus 601 XL, Hendersonville, TN barcusc@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Stecher" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 9:14 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Introducing Myself > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt Stecher" > > Hello Everyone, > > I am new to the list and the Zenith world and was just chiming in to say > hello to everyone. I live on the West side of Houston Texas in Katy. > > I have had my plans for the XL for a month or so and have already begun my > Corvair conversion to WW's plans. I am planning to scratch build my plane > to primarily reduce costs, but the journey sounds like more fun this way > as well. I am really looking forward to the education I am about to > receive, which I suppose is at the heart of the experimental category. > > I am also a student pilot (172) with about 10 hours and at the rate I am > going it will probably take me another year to finish up my PP License. I > considered the Sport Pilot License, but would like to enjoy my aircraft > more than it would allow. > > I am a recent addition to Chapter 774 out of Brookshire Texas which is > headed up by Leonard of the Legal Eagle fame. > > I completed a welding course recently and have begun practicing my gas > welding in preparation for the many parts that will be welded. > > I am already having a blast and looking forward to a lifetime involvement > in the Aviation world. > > I am sure that I will have many questions as I go along and will be > looking toward everyone here to help me over some of the humps. > > Thanks in advance for all your help, > > Matt Stecher > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:42 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: Economical Low Pressure Air System --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Hi guys, Ive been painting with Hangar 21 AFS water borne system and was getting along very confidently with a 3M dual filter organic charcoal respirator, but I made a mistake that could have gone very wrong. I turned on the exhaust fans in my booth, but due to interference with am radio reception, Id earlier unplugged the fans at the wall. I sprayed the trim color on my stabilizer, which took no more than about 5-minutes. Over spray build up was such that I was seriously worried about effectiveness of my respirator. It has limits for heavy concentrations. I couldnt smell the paint or fumes, but did feel a bit dizzy later. That did it! I decided to put an air system in front of my respirator. After checking what others have done, I made up a hood and mask system that fits over the 3M Respirator that guarantees fresh air is the only thing my respirator would have to deal with. A hood was cut and sewn from a disposable Tyvex paint suit. The legs were cut off in a radial pattern from the crotch to the armpits and sewn shut. The zipper was oriented to place the shut-end at back center of my head. I bought a new face shield and put 1/2-inch Velcro on the outer edges of the clear shield and across the solid top edge. The Tyvex face was placed tightly against the sticky side of the Velcro and the Tyvex inside that perimeter was cut out. Integration of the mask and the hood only took an hour and a half and the cost was well below equivalent commercial parts. I also purchased a small portable vacuum and ordered 50-foot of air hose. The hood combination face shield fits over the respirator and inside the neck of my other Tyvex paint suit. An accessory hose-fitting relieves excess pressure and reduces to a 3/8-inch hose for inflating things. The small hose extends into the hood and is supported at my belt. I use Saran wrap on the face shield and its replaced as needed. The apparatus is comfortable, easily maintains visibility and still allows a good range of motion for spraying in the booth. Should have done this in the first place. If youve any interest in this, Ive placed pictures of the low-pressure air hood on my web sites paint page. It shows enough detail for anyone to make one of these. Difficulty rating is about a 3 and the average material cost would be about $25 (without the vacuum). See links below. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/paint/full/hood-front-w-Saran-Wrap.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/paint/full/blue-&-cream-stab.gif Have a good one and "fly safe" Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:24 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL tank improvement --> Zenith-List message posted by: There was discussion on the list a few weeks back regarding the fact that the filler neck fixture could not be screwed down far enough into the threaded ring welded to the tank by the factory. The flange of the filler neck would not make contact with the nose skin before it bottomed out. There were suggestions to bash the top of the tank inward to effectively lower the threaded ring relative to the closed nose skin. I didn't like that idea. I tried shimming the skin upward to close the gap, but that didn't work (someone on the list was right about that). I decided to grind a bevel into the threaded ring to allow the bevel under the filler neck to fit farther down. That closed the gap but the first one I did suffered damage to the threads that I could not reslove. I had to buff the threads off the filler neck and the welded ring then ProSeal the filler neck in place. That worked but it was a lot of unnecessary manure to shovel through in my opinion. The second one was better.... I ground the bevel into the threaded ring using my dental lab handpiece. With familiar instruments the result was more precise and the threads survived.... this one will screw in place as designed. I felt this needed some additional engineering so I related this saga to Nick Heintz via email. I suggested that the threaded ring should be welded to the underside of the top skin of the tank so that it would not stick up so high and require modification by the builder. Guess what? They came to that conclusion on their own and the tanks are being done that way as we speak. Future builders will not have to fight this problem as we have. This is the sort of thing that the RV-12 will have to evolve through when it hits the market and another reason that the Zodiac 601XL will not go the way of the dinosuars just because an impressive company like Vans puts out a competitor. Hats off to the brothers Heintz for a significant improvement in the design of the tanks. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / 2nd wing This should be in the archive. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:46 PM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL tank improvement --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Valentine" Well Ed, thanks for bringing it to their attention *again*. I agree that the RV may suffer similar pains, but why was this one a pain at all? To be honest, this should have been patently obvious after the prototype. When I brought it up recently, you and at least four others had already had similar problems and at least one person had contacted the factory long(?) ago. (Taking the customer-service concept of 1 complainer for 10 others who bear the pain, does that mean 40 other people had these problems? I realize that analogy may not be appropriate here, but I'll bet it is more than the 4 of us!) Nonetheless, I am glad that Zenith is has admitted the problem and implemented a fix. I don't mean to sound bitter - I'm just personally not sure such a fix deserves a "hats off! Glad your solution worked for you also! Michael Valentine do not archive On 8/10/06, dredmoody@cox.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > There was discussion on the list a few weeks back regarding the fact that the filler neck fixture could not be screwed down far enough into the threaded ring welded to the tank by the factory. The flange of the filler neck would not make contact with the nose skin before it bottomed out. > > Future builders will not have to fight this problem as we have. This is the sort of thing that the RV-12 will have to evolve through when it hits the market and another reason that the Zodiac 601XL will not go the way of the dinosuars just because an impressive company like Vans puts out a competitor. > > Hats off to the brothers Heintz for a significant improvement in the design of the tanks. > > Ed Moody II ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:30 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL tank improvement I agree, hats off to Zenith for that one. It is a good company, with good people, and a great product, BUT: They'll have to step up every area of production to that level to compete if the RV-12 makes it into production. There are other areas where Zenith easily beats companies like Van's (offering plans only, for one), but engineering and design of the fabricated parts isn't one of them. Yet. They're getting much better in a hurry though! That says NOTHING about the design of their aircraft. I love them, and they perform well. My comment pertains to issues like filler necks sticking up too high, on every part, sent to every builder, for months and months. I for one am glad to see the RV-12 coming to fruition. Not because I want one, but because it may cause Zenith step it up a notch to compete. Think of that, an already great airplane being just that much easier to assemble. I'm all for it! dredmoody@cox.net wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: There was discussion on the list a few weeks back regarding the fact that the filler neck fixture could not be screwed down far enough into the threaded ring welded to the tank by the factory. The flange of the filler neck would not make contact with the nose skin before it bottomed out. There were suggestions to bash the top of the tank inward to effectively lower the threaded ring relative to the closed nose skin. I didn't like that idea. I tried shimming the skin upward to close the gap, but that didn't work (someone on the list was right about that). I decided to grind a bevel into the threaded ring to allow the bevel under the filler neck to fit farther down. That closed the gap but the first one I did suffered damage to the threads that I could not reslove. I had to buff the threads off the filler neck and the welded ring then ProSeal the filler neck in place. That worked but it was a lot of unnecessary manure to shovel through in my opinion. The second one was better.... I ground the bevel into the threaded ring using my dental lab handpiece. With familiar instruments the result was more precise and the threads survived.... this one will screw in place as designed. I felt this needed some additional engineering so I related this saga to Nick Heintz via email. I suggested that the threaded ring should be welded to the underside of the top skin of the tank so that it would not stick up so high and require modification by the builder. Guess what? They came to that conclusion on their own and the tanks are being done that way as we speak. Future builders will not have to fight this problem as we have. This is the sort of thing that the RV-12 will have to evolve through when it hits the market and another reason that the Zodiac 601XL will not go the way of the dinosuars just because an impressive company like Vans puts out a competitor. Hats off to the brothers Heintz for a significant improvement in the design of the tanks. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL / 2nd wing This should be in the archive. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:41 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Center console vs dual sticks Anyone planning dual sticks needs to be aware of this. While waiting on my controls kit to be delivered, I carefully constructed the center console, with labled parts, according to the drawings. Guess what? The center console in the drawings will not work with dual sticks. It's not even close! I will just have to fabricate another one to fit the conditions. So if you are going to install dual sticks, be aware; plan ahead! Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:24 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Center console vs dual sticks What specifically is different? I have the dual stick kit and will be retro-fitting it to my existing center stick installation. I have hand-placed the new parts and they appear to fit. -- Craig _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 6:28 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Center console vs dual sticks Anyone planning dual sticks needs to be aware of this. While waiting on my controls kit to be delivered, I carefully constructed the center console, with labled parts, according to the drawings. Guess what? The center console in the drawings will not work with dual sticks. It's not even close! I will just have to fabricate another one to fit the conditions. So if you are going to install dual sticks, be aware; plan ahead! Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:54 PM PST US From: "neitzel" Subject: Zenith-List: Polished Aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" Greetings all, I had previously stated on the list that (at OSH) I had compared Nuvite to Rolite and chose Rolite. I needed to purchase a seven inch buffer/polisher and found the Harbor Freight (stock number 92623) variable speed machine met my requirements. After the 10 minute test it appears that the HF tool is up to the task. On line price is $50, I got it in a HF store on sale for $30. I pried it out of the box tonight, opened the can of pre-polish and went to work on a two square foot area on the fuselage side. I first wiped the aluminum with mineral spirits to see if that was a good suggestion. After ten minuets I had gone over the area three times. With out moving on to the second grade or the AP 300, I was extremely pleased with the result. The "grain" appearance is all but gone and I am certain that moving through the 2nd and 3rd stage will give me exactly the finish that I was hoping for. I'm not certain that the application of mineral spirits proved useful. More experimentation is in order. I'm also not sure that the two pound can of pre-polish is going to be enough for the whole airplane. Basically I was putting just a finger full on the buffing head and that seemed to go quite a ways. I am just looking at the "acres" of aluminum and thinking it may not be enough. Will have a better feel for it as I get serious about polishing. I guess I don't really care if I have to order another can because I am so pleased with what I am seeing. This was just a test to let everyone know what I have experienced. I need to get back building. Polishing is going to be very labor intensive but, IMHO, will be worth the effort. Going the polish vs. painting route, I can polish the completed assemblies and except for touch up to remove finger prints after final assembly, it will be done! I will not have to look at the dreaded (and inevitable) run that I will get by spraying. If anyone is still sitting on the fence I hope the information I have provided is enough to push you one way or the other. Take care and keep pulling those rivets! Dick Neitzel Sayner, WI 701 Jab 2200 Just finished cutting all the holes in the instrument panel and now trial fitting the engine mount.....can't wait to hang the engine and move my bird to the hangar. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:16 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Center console vs dual sticks Craig, The console shown in the drawings has a face that goes from the bottom of the instrument panel to the top of the wing center spar, with a bend about a third of the way from the top. This won't work because the arm rest for the dual sticks is essentially level from back to front; and the top of it is well above the top of the wing center section. The photo guide for the dual sticks shows a console face that goes from the bottom of the instrument panel to the top of this level arm rest, with no bend. The plans console also has side panels that go from the instrument panel to the floor. They would interfere with the connecting rod for the dual sticks. I can send photos (off line) if that would help. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:18 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: RE : Zenith-List: Polished Aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Dick, consider polishing the while the material is still flat... I did that for the tail feathers and will be doing the same for the rest. Have fun - and thanks for the report! Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada --- neitzel a crit : > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "neitzel" > ... > Polishing is going to be very labor intensive but, IMHO, will be worth the > effort. Going the polish vs. painting route, I can polish the completed > assemblies and except for touch up to remove finger prints after final > assembly, it will be done! I will not have to look at the dreaded (and > inevitable) run that I will get by spraying. > > If anyone is still sitting on the fence I hope the information I have > provided is enough to push you one way or the other. > > Take care and keep pulling those rivets! > > Dick Neitzel > Sayner, WI > 701 Jab 2200 > Just finished cutting all the holes in the instrument panel and now trial > fitting the engine mount.....can't wait to hang the engine and move my bird > to the hangar. > p4.vert.ukl.yahoo.com uncompressed/chunked Fri Aug 11 01:23:42 GMT 2006 __________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:08 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Center console vs dual sticks Ah, now I understand. I was reading "center console" as referring to the arm rest. I can see that the standard center console which slopes from the control panel to the arm rest shown in the plans would never work with the dual sticks. Thanks for the heads-up! -- Craig ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:26 PM PST US From: Christian Tremblay Subject: Zenith-List: Steve Adams'Zenair Zodiac CH640 Hi gang, I want to congratulate Steve Adams, from Evans, Georgia, for his completion of a beautiful CH640. The Kitplanes Magazine of September mention his successes at page 68. Congratulation Steve, and I re-offers you a space for a Web page for your project, for sharing more photography with the builders community. Question to the group: Somebody can tell me how many CH640 have been completed ? I buy plan last september 05 (number 0059). On Frapp Web site (CH640 group) we are currently 5 on North America. ______________________________________ Christian Tremblay The guy who build a CH640 from plan http://www.zodiac640.com/ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:39 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Oil Canning Stiffeners701 Oil Canning Stiffeners Hello Tommy: Here are a couple of more ways of looking at anti-oil-canning braces. The first thing I did was to go out to the TAPCO brake with some of my extensive .016 scrap inventory and bent up some really nice "Z" sections which I then installed diagonally on the fuselage sides, bottom & top, between the verticals. Since it was non-structural, I used #3 solid rivets (cheaper) rather than Avex. This is shown in the attached picture before riveting. I then proudly posted my results to the list and was immediately talked out of using my newly formed "Z". I believe it was Chuck D who advised that by using "L" rather than "Z", after installation, one could make a trip back into the fuselage with their fluting pliers and slightly flute the "L" which very gently "curves" each fuselage section outward, thereby putting a bit of tension at each station. I thought this was excellent advice, so much so that I scrapped all my newly formed "Z" and made another trip to the brake with more .016 material from my extensive stock of previously destroyed parts and formed the "L" section which is shown in the photo. As this is non-structural, and as a "scrap-builder", I used .016 material to save weight. Kit builders could easily use the furnished .025 standard "L". I think the fluting operation has great value and eliminates stringing wires across the rear fuse. Best Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas > Bruce do you have any pictures of the wire braces? > > Thanks, > Tommy Walker in Alabama > Do Not Archive > > > bvthomas(at)bigpond.com wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > I added diagonal "L" stiffeners in each panel on0 the sides and top & bottom of my 701. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:07 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Introducing (Welded Parts) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Paul, keep making all the mistakes you want! Also, don't ever stop asking questions. There are many on this list afraid to ask a "stupid" question so they just plug on without really knowing what they are doing or they get frustrated and stop work. This goes for all of you! Ask questions, that's why the people flying stick around this list to answer the same questions they asked someone else 2 years earlier. As for the not having seen any wielded parts I just took it that you didn't see any parts of which you need to wield yourself, and being a kit builder their is not a single piece you would need to wield as they are all done for you. Here is the ultimate "Stupid" question I get on a regular basis. " Why can't I use standard hardware store nuts and bolts?" To many of us the answer is simple and we would never consider using such a low grade of hardware. But I thank god every time someone asks me that question because if they didn't know that there was such a huge difference in quality then they would likely have run out to the Home depot and install grade 3 or 4 bolts into the spars. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing (Welded Parts) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz OK, OK, I stand corrected. I have been building from sub-kits and have not yet reached the canopy, gear, controls, or FWF. I did forget about the welded fuel tanks. (Indeed my memory is so lousy I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday either.) I promise I will never make any more stupid mistakes again. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 06:13 AM 8/10/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > >Paul M. you kill me. I had the same "nearly done" >attitude over a year ago. See a few examples below of >welded parts for the 601XL: >Nose gear: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_12_04_flange2.JPG >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_05_04_NoseGear2.JPG >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_07_04_UpperBearing.JPG >Step support: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_06_05_Step1.jpg >Gas Strut supports for canopy: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_28_05_GasSpringHinge.jpg >Engine mounts: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/7_24_04_BulkheadParts.JPG >Gear Attachments: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/8_26_04_GearAttachJig.JPG >Flap parts: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_21_04_Flaps.JPG >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_17_04_FlapBracket2.JPG >A box of misc. parts: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_02_05_PlatingParts.jpg >Canopy latches and frame: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/6_6_06_Canopy_Latch1.JPG >Steps: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_7_05_Steps.jpg >Engine mount bed: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/2_10_05_Bed.JPG >Engine Mount: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_9_05_EngineMount.jpg >Starter Brackets: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/8_3_06_Starter_Bracket2.JPG >This is why I know how many welded parts there are: >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_05_04_Welding.JPG > >I'm sure I left out a few but thats a sampling. > >Scott Laughlin >Omaha, Nebraska >(formerly of Katy, Texas) >601XL - 90% done and 90% to go >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ > > -- No virus found in this incoming message. -- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:26 PM PST US From: "Larry Winger" Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder skin bending technique As a 601XL scratch builder, I'm looking for guidance on bending my rudder skins. I have watched the "Scratch Building Basics" DVDs and will use their technique unless I hear differently from the list. In case you don't know, they do the following: Trailing edge skin -- They start the bend in the bending brake (which I have). They then move it to the worktable and complete the bend with even pressure on a 2x4. They bring it to a fairly sharp bend (presumably without exceeding a minimum radius). Leading edge skin -- They bring the ends together on the top of the worktable, and produce a smooth and broadly curved nose by gently applying pressure on the 2x4. Based on your experience, what works the best? Sorry if I missed a similar discussion in the archives. Larry Winger Tustin, CA Scratch building 601XL ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:17 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing (Welded Parts) OOPS, guess I need to change those spar bolts. I also used brillo pads instead of scotch brite. I wanted them to be clean with all that foamy stuff. Is that bad! JUST KIDDING for all those guys getting ready to hit the reply button! LOL Larry Husky Lakeview, OR 601XL / Corvair Building Fuse Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:38 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder skin bending technique I hate to say it, but that's the best method unless you have access to a hydraulic press brake. I had good luck using an 1/8" top punch in a .472" acute bottom die. I was only able to hit a 30 degree included angle, but it was close. Add a little pressure from a 2X4 (there's no getting away from that 2X4!), and it was a beautiful looking rudder skin. I used the table and 2X4 method for the Horizontal Tail skin, due to the larger radius. I got good results, but it's IMPERATIVE that you apply even pressure ALL along the full length to avoid smiles in the material. (Yeah, I went through two Horizontal Tail skins too. lol) A second person makes the job much easier, IF they understand they need to take their time. Inform them ahead of time that their impatience may cost them $100 for a new skin. Larry Winger wrote: As a 601XL scratch builder, I'm looking for guidance on bending my rudder skins. I have watched the "Scratch Building Basics" DVDs and will use their technique unless I hear differently from the list. In case you don't know, they do the following: Trailing edge skin -- They start the bend in the bending brake (which I have). They then move it to the worktable and complete the bend with even pressure on a 2x4. They bring it to a fairly sharp bend (presumably without exceeding a minimum radius). Leading edge skin -- They bring the ends together on the top of the worktable, and produce a smooth and broadly curved nose by gently applying pressure on the 2x4. Based on your experience, what works the best? Sorry if I missed a similar discussion in the archives. Larry Winger Tustin, CA Scratch building 601XL ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:20 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Introducing (Welded Parts) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" My ole pappy usta say: "If you don't know something you can ask the question & maybe feel foolish for a minute or two, OR you remain silent and be ignorant for the rest of your life". I like to think I always pick the former. KABONG HRII Do Not Archive (GBA & GWB) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zodie Rocket" Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:10 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Introducing (Welded Parts) > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" > > Paul, keep making all the mistakes you want! Also, don't ever stop > asking questions. There are many on this list afraid to ask a "stupid" > question so they just plug on without really knowing what they are doing > or they get frustrated and stop work.