Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:01 AM - Re: Hinge less ailerons (Gary Gower)
2. 04:30 AM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 04:49 AM - Re: Clecos (Trainnut01@aol.com)
4. 05:36 AM - 12' x 4' Workbench Ideas (Dino Bortolin)
5. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: Rudder skin bending technique (Bill Naumuk)
6. 06:04 AM - Clecos, again (Bill Naumuk)
7. 06:15 AM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (Robert L. Stone)
8. 06:28 AM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (Bob Percival)
9. 06:28 AM - Re: Re: Clecos (Jim Hoak)
10. 06:41 AM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (Gary Boothe)
11. 07:03 AM - Re: Re: Rudder skin bending technique (Larry Winger)
12. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: Hinge less ailerons (Edward Moody II)
13. 07:34 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Edward Moody II)
14. 08:27 AM - Sport Pilot (Tim Perkins)
15. 08:46 AM - 701 Reasons (Stanley Challgren)
16. 09:32 AM - paint stripes (john butterfield)
17. 10:49 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Bill Naumuk)
18. 11:16 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Jaybannist@cs.com)
19. 11:33 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Jaybannist@cs.com)
20. 11:37 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Tom and Bren Henderson)
21. 11:41 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Tom and Bren Henderson)
22. 12:38 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (Steve Hulland)
23. 01:33 PM - Re: Hinge less ailerons (with autopilot) (T. Graziano)
24. 01:55 PM - Re: 701 Reasons (John Marzulli)
25. 02:14 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (Randy)
26. 02:23 PM - Re: Clecos, again (Bill Naumuk)
27. 02:55 PM - Re: Clecos, again (Jaybannist@cs.com)
28. 03:40 PM - Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (William Dominguez)
29. 03:49 PM - Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (Tom and Bren Henderson)
30. 03:54 PM - Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (Zodie Rocket)
31. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Hinge less ailerons (with autopilot) (Steve Hulland)
32. 04:12 PM - Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (lwinger)
33. 05:30 PM - Clecos, final (Bill Naumuk)
34. 05:52 PM - Re: Clecos, final (wscribb)
35. 06:00 PM - Re: Clecos, final (Zodie Rocket)
36. 06:08 PM - Ah, the hingeless Navaid (Jeff Small)
37. 07:12 PM - Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (ROBERT SCEPPA)
38. 07:29 PM - Re: Clecos, final (Jim Hoak)
39. 07:29 PM - Re: Clecos, again (Jeff)
40. 07:57 PM - Pilot Holes (Mark Sherman)
41. 07:57 PM - Hole Drilling (was clecos again). (Paul Mulwitz)
42. 08:06 PM - Re: Clecos, again (Paul Mulwitz)
43. 08:29 PM - Re: Clecos, final (Zodie Rocket)
44. 09:45 PM - Re: Pilot Holes (Tom Henderson)
45. 10:59 PM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (TxDave)
46. 11:02 PM - Bic Mark-it markers (kevinbonds)
47. 11:47 PM - Re: Back inside cover of Kit Planes (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Hinge less ailerons |
Hello Craig,
No it was not that way, this is (as I remember reading) the correct one:
Once several thousands of bending cycles where done with no problem, they stoped
the test and made a little cut in the hinge area,
>From that little cut, cycles later a little crack started to develope (as spectred),
a stop hole was drilled and the crack stoped there. the test continued
successfully all the cycles planned with no farther problem.
I am convinced and will use it in my XL wings.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico in a 701 912S
Building a 601 XL
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by:
"Craig Payne"
Zenith actually did a life test with a motor flexing a sample. It went tens
of thousands of cycles before short cracks appeared at the ends. I think
they then drilled two stop holes and continued the test. You will die of old
age before this is a real problem.
-- Craig
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press |
Hi Bob,
I got out my trusty keyboard and did a little searching in your area
for steel suppliers. I found one that looks pretty good about 30
miles from you. I don't have any personal experience with these
guys, but I liked their web site. You might drive over and take a
look or give them a call.
http://www.adamscitysteel.com/index.html
in case you are interested, my major search that got this jewel was
something like "80513 steel angle" on Yahoo local search engine
good luck,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 09:53 PM 8/11/2006, you wrote:
>I've been shopping around for angle for this brake but haven't had
>much luck finding 8' pieces. Further, the 4' pieces I've found at
>Lowe's go for about twenty five bucks. Any suggestions where to
>locate this stuff?
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>Bob Percival
>701 from plans
>Berthoud CO
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 3
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Jim
Without discussing how I know, I completely agree that you can build a
twisted wing if you trust the clecos. I am curious about what you did about it
afterward.
Carroll Jernigan
XL Wings
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | 12' x 4' Workbench Ideas |
This thread came along at a good time - my friend that I'm borrowing a table from
is planning to build an RV12 and needs it back. So I have about a year to get
my plane on the wheels (extremely unlikely!). I'm hoping he buys a plane instead
:-)
do not archive
Dino Bortolin
LaSalle, Ontario
XL/Corvair
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder skin bending technique |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Larry-
Are you talking about the rudder skin or the stab? If it's the stab, the
old hand drawn builder's manual shows that you use an 18mm board against
what will be the leading edge to keep you from pushing down too far. If it's
the rudder skin, the Homebuilder's Help DVD shows it just being folded over.
The ribs provide the final radius.
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin bending technique
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
>
> Ron,
>
> What stop did you use? I see no reference in the plans to the radius.
>
> --------
> Larry Winger
> Tustin, CA
> 601XL #6493 from scratch
> Building stabilizer & rudder parts
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54286#54286
>
>
>
Message 6
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All-
I must be losing my ability to communicate, because my question was
"How many clecos will I actually need to complete my fuselage", not "How
to I keep from warping the wings". I already learned that lesson the
hard way- attached is a picture of how I prevented it. (118K)
My point is, if you're following the manual sequentially, you leave
off building the center wing with everything in clecos and move on to
the fuse. All right, I'm going to follow the instructions.
So how many more clecos do I need from this point on?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press |
Bob,
Try Home Depot, we have both Lowes, and Home Depot here in Killeen,
Texas and in my opinion, Home depot is cheaper and has a better
selection of everything. I know they have steel angle in several
different sizes.
Bob Stone
Harker Heights, Tx
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Percival
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:53 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press
I've been shopping around for angle for this brake but haven't had
much luck finding 8' pieces. Further, the 4' pieces I've found at Lowe's
go for about twenty five bucks. Any suggestions where to locate this
stuff?
Thanks in advance!
Do Not Archive
Bob Percival
701 from plans
Berthoud CO
Message 8
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| Subject: | sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press |
Thanks to Paul & those of you who responded off list. This ought to
keep me busy for while!
Do Not Archive
Bob Percival
701 from plans
Berthoud CO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Mulwitz
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake
press
Hi Bob,
I got out my trusty keyboard and did a little searching in your area for
steel suppliers. I found one that looks pretty good about 30 miles from
you. I don't have any personal experience with these guys, but I liked
their web site. You might drive over and take a look or give them a
call.
http://www.adamscitysteel.com/index.html
in case you are interested, my major search that got this jewel was
something like "80513 steel angle" on Yahoo local search engine
good luck,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 09:53 PM 8/11/2006, you wrote:
I've been shopping around for angle for this brake but haven't had much
luck finding 8' pieces. Further, the 4' pieces I've found at Lowe's go
for about twenty five bucks. Any suggestions where to locate this stuff?
Thanks in advance!
Do Not Archive
Bob Percival
701 from plans
Berthoud CO
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 9
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Carroll,
Long story short, I got ZAC to send me another wing kit without the spar
attach holes drilled. I match drilled the attach holes using a locally
made drill bushing. Also paid very close attention when building the
second wing. Built it in two weeks! There is much more to the story but
I'll not bore everyone here with it.
As for the warped wing, being lazy as I am, it is still stored in my
basement, painted and all. All I've got to do is remove the rivets,
replace the ribs and reassemble. I probably would have to upsize a few
rivets in the rear spar at the outboard end. It's only been ten years ,
but I do hope to get to it some day, if I live long enough!
If you want all the gory details of how I built the warped wing and how
I built a nice straight wing the second time contact me off line
directly and I'll share the whole story with you.
Jim Hoak 601HD with a warped wing ( been fixed though)
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Trainnut01@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 7:48 AM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Zenith-List: Clecos
Jim
Without discussing how I know, I completely agree that you can build a
twisted wing if you trust the clecos. I am curious about what you did
about it afterward.
Carroll Jernigan
XL Wings
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press |
Bob,
When he accesses his e-mail, Dave would tell you that he found =BC=94
angle at a
junk yard for pennies on the dollar! I, however, found mine at a metal
supply shop and paid 3 times more than I should have.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings almost done....
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Percival
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:06 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake
press
Thanks to Paul & those of you who responded off list. This ought to
keep me
busy for while!
Do Not Archive
Bob Percival
701 from plans
Berthoud CO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Mulwitz
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake
press
Hi Bob,
I got out my trusty keyboard and did a little searching in your area for
steel suppliers. I found one that looks pretty good about 30 miles from
you. I don't have any personal experience with these guys, but I liked
their web site. You might drive over and take a look or give them a
call.
http://www.adamscitysteel.com/index.html
in case you are interested, my major search that got this jewel was
something like "80513 steel angle" on Yahoo local search engine
good luck,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 09:53 PM 8/11/2006, you wrote:
I=92ve been shopping around for angle for this brake but haven=92t had
much luck
finding 8=92 pieces. Further, the 4=92 pieces I=92ve found at Lowe=92s
go for about
twenty five bucks. Any suggestions where to locate this stuff?
Thanks in advance!
Do Not Archive
Bob Percival
701 from plans
Berthoud CO
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder skin bending technique |
I was talking about the rudder skin. Thank, however, for the advance info
on the stab.
Larry Winger
On 8/12/06, Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
> Larry-
> Are you talking about the rudder skin or the stab? If it's the stab,
> the
> old hand drawn builder's manual shows that you use an 18mm board against
> what will be the leading edge to keep you from pushing down too far. If
> it's
> the rudder skin, the Homebuilder's Help DVD shows it just being folded
> over.
> The ribs provide the final radius.
> Bill Naumuk
> 40%HDS
> Townville, Pa
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:50 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin bending technique
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > What stop did you use? I see no reference in the plans to the radius.
> >
> > --------
> > Larry Winger
> > Tustin, CA
> > 601XL #6493 from scratch
> > Building stabilizer & rudder parts
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54286#54286
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Hinge less ailerons |
You bet your bippy! While I myself am not a Corvair guy, it is a nice
option for many. Just another reason I predict that the Zodiac will hold
its own against the RV-12.
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: NYTerminat@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Hinge less ailerons
Just playing with you, Your analogy will probably be correct and I
will look to see more Corvairs in the sky. :)
In a message dated 8/11/2006 7:34:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
admin@arachnidrobotics.com writes:
OH NO, you did NOT just start that up again did you?! : ) Oh, and
for what it's worth, you'll get as much for a well built XL with a
Corvair as you would for a Jab, minus the difference in engine costs.
Which means....YOU'LL MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT WHEN YOU SELL A CORVAIR
POWERED PLANE AS YOU WILL WHEN YOU SELL A JABIRU POWERED PLANE (give or
take a bit.)
That ten thousand dollar difference in price is easily made up
in the fact that it cost thousands less to get it in the air. Oh, not
to mention the fact that some people swear by them, not at them. One
more time as a group..."TO EACH THEIR OWN!"
NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
You are installing a Corvair engine and are worried about resale
for the aileron hinges????
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
I hope what I'm doing is adequate... I just used a smart level to make
certain that the main and rear spars were the same amount off level
before rivetting. I may be missing something but I think folks get way
too excited about having things plumb level or at a particular angle
relative to plumb. I look at it this way..... once it's flying, it won't
necessarilty be at any of those carefully guarded angles will it? But it
damn well better be at the right angles relative to other parts of the
airplane!
In answer to your question..... buy a herd of them.... particularly the
black ones. About 250 - 300 silver..... about 300 - 350 copper...... and
about 350 - 400 black. The silver and copper ones will sell to anyone
who builds an RV and when the -12 hits the market so will the black
ones. That's my 2 bits worth,
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith list
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, again
All-
I must be losing my ability to communicate, because my question
was "How many clecos will I actually need to complete my fuselage", not
"How to I keep from warping the wings". I already learned that lesson
the hard way- attached is a picture of how I prevented it. (118K)
My point is, if you're following the manual sequentially, you
leave off building the center wing with everything in clecos and move on
to the fuse. All right, I'm going to follow the instructions.
So how many more clecos do I need from this point on?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Perkins" <Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> On the other hand, if the student
> has a standard 3'rd class medical and student pilot license then he
> can solo any class of trainer and still test for and receive a Sport
> Pilot certificate.
Correct to some extent, however you cannot test for a Sport Pilot
certificate unless the aircraft is LSA-compliant (eLSA, sLSA, or an
experimental or certified aircraft fitting the LSA definition). So you can't
ever complete your SP certificate unless you are able to take the test in an
LSA-compliant aircraft.
> At that point the medical will serve to qualify
> him for further training toward a Private Pilot certificate.
Yes, however you cannot exercise the rights of a SP unless flying a
LSA-compliant aircraft, which most trainers do not qualify for. So even if
you have your SP certificate, you're a Student PP if you climb into a
non-LSA compliant aircraft (no passengers, CFI permission/sign-off).
The written tests are quite different also, and not interchangeable. You
can't take your PP Written and have it qualify you for your SP. You'd have
to take your SP written in order to take the SP Practical. I also think the
student certificates are a little different too (you basically have to
indicate which type of certificate you want, SP or PP).
The hours flying can count for either.
Tim Perkins
Message 15
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List:
Ditto for me, I fly out of my back yard, would like to build a bigger
and faster plane but the selection is limited because of my short
runway.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX CH701/912S
I got a 701 so I could keep it at home and fly out of my pasture.
Chuck D.
The same for me plus the ease of getting in and out of a 701. My
body was rebelling against climbing up on the wing, over the railing
and under the canopy to assume command of a 601.
Stan
701 a'building
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield <jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
hi list
i have been thinking of using reflective stripes after
i paint my machine. has anyone used them and if so,
do they hold up and not look to bad. it seems that
the reflective qualities would be an advantage at
night.
john butterfield
601XL, Corvair
Torrance, Ca
__________________________________________________
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
Ed-
I've never used a silver cleco yet, and have 300 each black and
gold. I'll probably use the 50 silvers I have when I get to the fuse.
With the skeleton nailed down, there was no need to use the silvers on
the wings.
I guess I'll have to look at the plans to figure out how many of the
rest I'll need unless one of the old hands can let me know how many
black and gold clecos they owned at the completion of their project.
As far as alignment is concerned, I did everything with a 5' level
and shims. Once everything was true, I clamped the skeleton down on the
bench with the L fixtures shown in the first picture. I don't think it's
a matter of making sure everything is laser true, but making sure the
sucker doesn't move once you start reefing on it. As a matter of fact,
I'm positive! Gotta remember the 601 series was designed before anyone
other than the military could afford a laser level.
Someone asked how you fix a warp. Disgustingly simple. You tear
everything apart to the point where you can get rid of the warp, salvage
what you can, and either order Zenith "Oops" parts or learn how to
fabricate them yourself. This is the point where some of us realized
they would have been just as far ahead building from scratch from the
start.
The first picture shows a scratchbuilt kit right outboard wing- 90%
scratch, 10% kit. Damn near all I could salvage was the sheet part of
the spar and a couple of rear ribs. Second picture of the finished
products attached. As you can see, there are a batch of clecos behind
held hostage. The picture was taken when everything was still in the
basement.
Back to my original question for people who have completed a 601
project- how many black and gold clecos did you own when it was all
over????
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again
I hope what I'm doing is adequate... I just used a smart level to make
certain that the main and rear spars were the same amount off level
before rivetting. I may be missing something but I think folks get way
too excited about having things plumb level or at a particular angle
relative to plumb. I look at it this way..... once it's flying, it won't
necessarilty be at any of those carefully guarded angles will it? But it
damn well better be at the right angles relative to other parts of the
airplane!
In answer to your question..... buy a herd of them.... particularly
the black ones. About 250 - 300 silver..... about 300 - 350 copper......
and about 350 - 400 black. The silver and copper ones will sell to
anyone who builds an RV and when the -12 hits the market so will the
black ones. That's my 2 bits worth,
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith list
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, again
All-
I must be losing my ability to communicate, because my question
was "How many clecos will I actually need to complete my fuselage", not
"How to I keep from warping the wings". I already learned that lesson
the hard way- attached is a picture of how I prevented it. (118K)
My point is, if you're following the manual sequentially, you
leave off building the center wing with everything in clecos and move on
to the fuse. All right, I'm going to follow the instructions.
So how many more clecos do I need from this point on?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
Bill, I am not scratch building and I am building an XL. However, maybe this
will help. I now have 350-3/32"; 400-1/8"; 400-5/32"; and 50-3/16".
I have completed tail, wings and about half of the fuselage. I think I have
enough clecoes to finish, but I don't think that I am overstocked.
Jay in Dallas
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
Bill, You mentioned that you have never used silver clecoes. I have found
(upon advice from ZAC) that a #40 drill bit is a lot easier to control
accurately than is a #30 or, especially a #20. All the predrilled holes in the
kit are
#40. I nearly always drill #40 holes and set silver clecoes to be later
drilled out when everything is in place. Sometimes I will start with a #30 if
the
plans call for a 1/8" rivet. Also, if the #40 holes somehow get slightly
misaligned, overdrilling with a #20 will get them aligned again without any
"snowman" holes. FWIW
Jay in Dallas
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
I've got less than half that, and I don't see a need for any more. Perhaps
we're all using a different assembly process? I started with the tail, and there
are still 8 clecos in the tail as I write this. Next was the fuselage, which
is nearly complete. I would say I will have maybe fifty or so still stuck
in it while I work on the wings.
One point to note here is that there is no reason to fill every hole with a
cleco, or even every third hole. As has been mentioned before on the list, what's
important is that all parts are straight and true.
What's it take, two days shipping to get another hundred clecos? I'd use what
you've got, and when it looks like you'll be needing some more, order them.
"Do I have enough clecos" is definitely not an area I would lose any sleep
over.
Oh, the cheapest I have found so far is Pegasus Auto Racing ( http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=645 ). They run about 35 cents a piece for most flavors.
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Bill, I am not scratch building and I am building an XL.
However, maybe this will help. I now have 350-3/32"; 400-1/8"; 400-5/32";
and 50-3/16".
I have completed tail, wings and about half of the fuselage. I think I have enough
clecoes to finish, but I don't think that I am overstocked.
Jay in Dallas
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
I always found drilling a pilot hole was like digging a post hole a little
too small, then going back to dig it the right size. If you're carefull with
a drill, you won't be off more than .010". If you notice that, you're FAR too
much a perfectionist to be building this plane. LOL
Do Not Archive
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Bill, You mentioned that you have never used silver clecoes.
I have found (upon advice from ZAC) that a #40 drill bit is a lot easier
to control accurately than is a #30 or, especially a #20. All the predrilled
holes in the kit are #40. I nearly always drill #40 holes and set silver clecoes
to be later drilled out when everything is in place. Sometimes I will
start with a #30 if the plans call for a 1/8" rivet. Also, if the #40 holes somehow
get slightly misaligned, overdrilling with a #20 will get them aligned
again without any "snowman" holes. FWIW
Jay in Dallas
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Why even bother with the Sports Pilote license? If you have a private pilot
license with a lapsed medical you can fly within the sport pilot arena and
do not even need the endorsements. At least that is how I think I remember
the rules. To lazy to look it up right now.
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Hinge less ailerons (with autopilot) |
No problem with the Trio EZ Pilot II auto-pilot and the hinge less
ailerons. I did not adjust the autopilot factory set servo override
force higher than when received. I can overpower the servo if needed
and the existing servo force is more than sufficient to keep'er straight
on course.
I have been previously involved in investigations a lot of aircraft
component metal fatigue failures ((also other failures such as
overstress, stress corrosion cracking in aluminum and stress
corrosion/hydrogen embrittlement failures in hi-strength steels (used to
be fun listening to the debates over which one occurred in high-strength
steels - do not know if a way has yet been developed to positively
determine this type failure if the part had been plated)) and have spent
countless hours with metallurgists in the lab. Originally, I thought
that the skin hinge could be prone to fatigue failure, but after reading
Mr. Heinz's test, I had no concerns. From an aerodynamic stand point, I
voted with my funds for the hinge less system.
Yes, the aileron stick force is heavy compared to the elevator stick
force BUT The hinge less system is a really neat discussion point with
other airplane enthusiasts.
Tony Graziano
601XL; N493TG; 128 hrs
----------------
Time: 09:05:20 AM PST US
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hinge less ailerons
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
<craig@craigandjean.com>
If you look in the file archive for this list you can see examples of AP
servos installed in 601's:
www.matronics.com/photoshare/craig@craigandjean.com.02.11.2006/
These include servos from Navaid and Treo. I assume at least one of
these
planes uses the "skin" hinges. Any of the owners should be able to
comment
on their servo performance: Jeff Small, Tony Graziano or Pat Safford.
>From my point of view I would bet that the force of the wind on the
ailerons
generates much more counterforce than the "skin" hinge.
-- Craig
Subject: Zenith-List: Hinge less ailerons
From: "John Hines" <John.Hines@craftontull.com>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines"
<John.Hines@craftontull.com>
I had an interesting conversation with Jim Younkin over the weekend
about the Zenith 601. For those that don't know, Jim Younkin is
credited with inventing the autopilot and he is the president of
Trutrak. When I told him I was building a 601XL, he rather gruffly
asked what kind of aileron hinge I was using. We then launched into the
normal conversation about how Zenith claims they last longer than a
piano hinge... He then said that questions of reliability weren't then
only reason he didn't like them. He said that flexing metal is not a
hinge, it is a spring. A spring requires more force to move than a
hinge. He talked about the CT2K having spring balanced ailerons and how
even though it was an LSA it required a bigger autopilot servo than a
Bonanza.
After talking to him I thought back to my flight in the demo plane. The
elevator motion was very smooth, but the aileron motion was stiff. But
you need so little aileron motion to maneuver that it didn't bother me.
Does the piano hinge give it better motion? How much weight does it
add?
All I know is that I'm a guy with no pilot's license and a completed
tail kit. Jim Younkin is a hell of a lot smarter than I am. It's hard
to argue with a guy with his credentials. What do you guys think?
John
www.johnsplane.com
Message 24
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My 701 will be kept at a major GA airport, but it's mission will be to fly
in and out of mountain lakes and through the inside passage to Alaska.
This plane is for camping and scenery chasing.
On 8/12/06, Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com> wrote:
>
> List:
>
> Ditto for me, I fly out of my back yard, would like to build a bigger and
> faster plane but the selection is limited because of my short runway.
>
>
> Bob Spudis
> N701ZX CH701/912S
>
>
> I got a 701 so I could keep it at home and fly out of my pasture.
> Chuck D.
>
> The same for me plus the ease of getting in and out of a 701. My body was
> rebelling against climbing up on the wing, over the railing and under the
> canopy to assume command of a 601.
>
> Stan
> 701 a'building
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot
harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
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I'm not sure how this thread started but I believe you're right Steven.
If a person is already a PP and lets his/her medical lapse they can fly
any Sport Pilot compliant plane with a valid drivers license.
Do not archive
Randy Ferri
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Hulland
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sport Pilot
Why even bother with the Sports Pilote license? If you have a private
pilot license with a lapsed medical you can fly within the sport pilot
arena and do not even need the endorsements. At least that is how I
think I remember the rules. To lazy to look it up right now.
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies
scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help
insure virus free email and attachments.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
This is the first true answer to the question I got. Figure on 150 each
of A4 and A5 clecos past the recommended 300 and you should be OK.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again
Bill, I am not scratch building and I am building an XL. However,
maybe this will help. I now have 350-3/32"; 400-1/8"; 400-5/32"; and
50-3/16".
I have completed tail, wings and about half of the fuselage. I think
I have enough clecoes to finish, but I don't think that I am
overstocked.
Jay in Dallas
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
Bill, I aslo wonder if some of the warped wing syndrome could be attributed
to using too few clecoes. I nearly always cleco at least every third hole and
every other one if it looks like alignment might be a problem.
Jay in Dallas
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| Subject: | Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? So
far I have checked Yarde Metals, ACS, Wicks and
Airparts Inc. You need around 26 feet of this to
build the 601XL.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? |
I wouldn't bother with the .093 angle. It's a pain to find, and it cost too much when you do find it. You can replace it with .125 angle, with ZAC's blessing. While not the cheapest, Mcmaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) has 8' lengths for $10.42 right now. Make sure you're asking for 6061-T6 when you call.
I've used this extensively in place of the .093 with only one drawback. It's
a pain in the @$$ to bend. But, if you don't mind a little more elbow grease,
it actually makes for a stiffer airframe with very little weight penalty.
Hope that helps...
William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by:
William Dominguez
Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? So
far I have checked Yarde Metals, ACS, Wicks and
Airparts Inc. You need around 26 feet of this to
build the 601XL.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Message 30
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| Subject: | Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Go with .125 angle or call Zenith the .093 is a special make. Check the
archives as this issue has been beaten to death over the years.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Dominguez
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez
<bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? So
far I have checked Yarde Metals, ACS, Wicks and
Airparts Inc. You need around 26 feet of this to
build the 601XL.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
8/11/2006
--
8/11/2006
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Hinge less ailerons (with autopilot) |
John,
No doubt Jim Younkin is talented, smart, knowledgeable, informed and
successful. But, he, like all of us has opinions based on facts and ideas
that he supports - that is the genius of all debate I think. And, he
probably cannot do what you do best as well as you. Unless you are in the
same profession I have never found comparing smarts, etc. to mine or anyone
eles to be a very useful endeavor - we all have our great and not so great
traits.
I have flown with the hing less ailerons and find them to be great. My 600
has them and I anticipate no problem at all when I start flying it this
month or next (waiting, waiting, waiting for the FAA paperwork). The testing
done with these aileron's was very good. More than twenty years of empirical
use has shown them to be just as good as any other system when used in the
correct application. So, why not? And as others say, it is a great talking
point when you arrive somewhere and find someone that has never seen or even
heard of them.
I find it funny to hear the guys around here who talked down pulled rivets
on the Zodiac planes now starting to change as they find out that other
companies are using them. I even think one of the next Vans airplane may
have them - somebody will correct me here. Bottom line is, the pulled rivets
work just great. A bunch of mine have been dimpled and made flush on the
wing. Not really necessary, but it looks very good and probably adds a bit
of strength and no cost in weight - but sure costs more man-power.
The best advise I can offer is to learn how to fly well, know and understand
your airplane even better while flying it within its and your capabilities.
Doing that will result in great fun and safe flying as you take your "hing
less aileron" story to all of those destinations where someone will question
such a building method.
I may be wrong, but the factory probably switched to piano hinged ailerons
in order to sell more airplanes to the many who will never really try to
understand and to the many who give their opinion more weight than any
other.
Enjoy yourself both building and flying.
Do Not Archive
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
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| Subject: | Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
If you decide to go with 3/4"x3/4"x.125", you might want to check out www.onlinemetals.com out of Seattle. They are showing 6061-T6 at $6.33 per 8' length. I've never used them. Any reports on their products or service would be appreciated.
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
601XL #6493 from scratch
Building stabilizer & rudder parts
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54450#54450
Message 33
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I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to
finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into
a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson.
And you wonder why people quit the list!
Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
Message 34
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Bill,
For my scratch built 601XL, I purchased 400 of the 3/32 (silver), 400 of the
1/8 (copper) and 200 of the 5/32 (black) clecos. With this amount I never
found myself looking for additional clecos of any size. With this quantity
I was able to build both wings at the same time.
Bill Cribb
601XL scratch built on the gear working firewall forward.
Vaughn, WA
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:28 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, final
I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to finish my
project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into a discussion
on wing warp and a French lesson.
And you wonder why people quit the list!
Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
Message 35
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Bill and others, cleco=92s are a great tool and the more you have the
better, but only trust them to hold two pieces of metal together and
nothing more. They will not keep parts in alignment or stop parts from
shifting or twisting. However, how many do you truly need for the XL.
100 silver, 200 copper and 300 black, 10 brass. When you have need for
more then these #=92s it is time to install tack rivets to secure the
large assembly your working on. When you finish a rudder/ elevator
don=92t
leave a 50cent cleco in the unit to store it , install a rivet with a
flush head so that you will recognize which one you need to remove
later, on large assemblies it is better to install tack rivets in the
odd location to prevent movement. These can easily be drilled out later
and you can use a A4 tack rivet in the line of A5 so that when you need
to remove the tack rivet you can drill to A5 and install the proper
size. Having 800 of each cleco is completely unnessary and when you get
large crowds of cleco=92s gathered in one place they start eating there
young, that is why there is always less in the can the next morning. One
other TIDBIT of wisdom, when I teach metalworking I ensure that no one
keeps his or her head directly over the newly installed cleco. TRUST me
on this point! After installing a cleco if your head is directly over it
and the gripping teeth break that dam cleco will impale itself into your
forehead with enough force to actually leave a welt and a very ugly
purple bruise the following day! You can say the wife beat you during a
frisky night to you friends that are not aircraft builders because it
truly is easier to say that then first explain what a cleco is then how
the hell it is possible to impart such a beating on a grown man! :-)
Hope this helps
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 donated to Jon
HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK
"http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK
"http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:28 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, final
I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to
finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into
a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson.
And you wonder why people quit the list!
Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
8/11/2006
--
8/11/2006
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| Subject: | Ah, the hingeless Navaid |
These include servos from Navaid and Treo. I assume at least one of
these
planes uses the "skin" hinges. Any of the owners should be able to
comment
on their servo performance: Jeff Small, Tony Graziano or Pat Safford.
Skin hinges here with an AP-1 - no problemo. Someone once replaced the
hingeless with piano wire ones. Maybe you could dig in the archives for
a look. Should only take about three days.
tailwinds jeff do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> I guess I was lucky, I found a local place that had
> .125 in 12ft lengths. I bought 4 pieces for my cap
> strips on the wing spars. I paid $35 for all, but
> now I'm looking for 12ft lengths of 1x1x.062 for my
> fuse longerons. I did check with Wicks, they are
> $1.72 a foot, but the shipping is costly.
> Bob Sceppa...do not archive
>
--- William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez
> <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
>
> Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? So
> far I have checked Yarde Metals, ACS, Wicks and
> Airparts Inc. You need around 26 feet of this to
> build the 601XL.
>
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
> (was 2MB)
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, final |
Bill,
I apoligize if I got you all worked up over the number of clecoes needed
to finish building your 601. I completely agree with Mark Townsend that
you probably already have enough on hand if you simply follow some
simple sheet metal construction techniques as Mark mentioned. I just did
a lousy job trying to explain what I meant about clamping and using just
a minimum number of clecoes. Of course the more you have the better but
let me close with saying that over the past forty years or more I've
built three all metal airplanes and have never had more tham 150 2/23",
200 1/8" , 100 5/32" and 10 3/16"' clecoes. This includes building and
early 601HD 10 years ago and a Midget Mustang I 35 years ago. I still
have most of the same clecoes I used then.
Again I appoligize for the poor way I tried to make the same points Mark
did. I should have just told you how many clecoes I used. I was only
trying to help. That's all I do these days is to try to help
homebuilders. Ask Mark. Roger Dubbert and all the Zenith guys. I guess
I'm just not very good at it!
Jim Hoak
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith list
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:28 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Zenith-List: Clecos, final
I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to
finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into
a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson.
And you wonder why people quit the list!
Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
Message 39
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Ed/Bill,
I agree about the silver clecos. I have my fuse on the gear and the
fwf installed (601 HD w/ jabiru). I'm using my first silvers on the canopy.
Jeff Davidson do not archive
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again
Ed-
I've never used a silver cleco yet, and have 300 each black and gold.
I'll probably use the 50 silvers I have when I get to the fuse. With the
skeleton nailed down, there was no need to use the silvers on the wings.
I guess I'll have to look at the plans to figure out how many of the
rest I'll need unless one of the old hands can let me know how many black
and gold clecos they owned at the completion of their project.
As far as alignment is concerned, I did everything with a 5' level and
shims. Once everything was true, I clamped the skeleton down on the bench
with the L fixtures shown in the first picture. I don't think it's a matter
of making sure everything is laser true, but making sure the sucker doesn't
move once you start reefing on it. As a matter of fact, I'm positive! Gotta
remember the 601 series was designed before anyone other than the military
could afford a laser level.
Someone asked how you fix a warp. Disgustingly simple. You tear
everything apart to the point where you can get rid of the warp, salvage
what you can, and either order Zenith "Oops" parts or learn how to fabricate
them yourself. This is the point where some of us realized they would have
been just as far ahead building from scratch from the start.
The first picture shows a scratchbuilt kit right outboard wing- 90%
scratch, 10% kit. Damn near all I could salvage was the sheet part of the
spar and a couple of rear ribs. Second picture of the finished products
attached. As you can see, there are a batch of clecos behind held hostage.
The picture was taken when everything was still in the basement.
Back to my original question for people who have completed a 601
project- how many black and gold clecos did you own when it was all over????
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II <mailto:dredmoody@cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again
I hope what I'm doing is adequate... I just used a smart level to make
certain that the main and rear spars were the same amount off level before
rivetting. I may be missing something but I think folks get way too excited
about having things plumb level or at a particular angle relative to plumb.
I look at it this way..... once it's flying, it won't necessarilty be at any
of those carefully guarded angles will it? But it damn well better be at the
right angles relative to other parts of the airplane!
In answer to your question..... buy a herd of them.... particularly the
black ones. About 250 - 300 silver..... about 300 - 350 copper...... and
about 350 - 400 black. The silver and copper ones will sell to anyone who
builds an RV and when the -12 hits the market so will the black ones. That's
my 2 bits worth,
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk <mailto:naumuk@alltel.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, again
All-
I must be losing my ability to communicate, because my question was "How
many clecos will I actually need to complete my fuselage", not "How to I
keep from warping the wings". I already learned that lesson the hard way-
attached is a picture of how I prevented it. (118K)
My point is, if you're following the manual sequentially, you leave off
building the center wing with everything in clecos and move on to the fuse.
All right, I'm going to follow the instructions.
So how many more clecos do I need from this point on?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
Message 40
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sherman <msherman95632@yahoo.com>
Tom H.
Drilling a pilot hole for accuracy of position is only
half the reason for a pilot hole. A two flute drill
will drill a triangle shaped hole until the drill's
lands are into the hole. This is difficult in sheet
metal because it is so thin, you usually end up with a
less than round hole and oversize. That is part of
the reason Zenith uses the cs rivets, it fills the
oversized hole with rivet material and then forms the
head. Drilling a pilot hole first lets the next size
drill produce a much rounder and more accurate size
hole. All this makes for a better fit and stronger
joint for the rivet.
Do you have to do this? Nope, it's your airplane. You
can fill those oversized out of shape holes with
rivets all day long. And then the next time you hit
some turbulence wonder how many rivets are wallowing
around in those oversized holes.
Mark S.
701/912S
Painting in CA
I always found drilling a pilot hole was like
digging a post hole a little too small, then going
back to dig it the right size. If you're careful with
a drill, you won't be off more than .010". If you
notice that, you're FAR too much a perfectionist to be
building this plane. LOL
Do Not Archive
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote:Bill, You mentioned that you
have never used silver clecoes. I have found (upon
advice from ZAC) that a #40 drill bit is a lot easier
to control accurately than is a #30 or, especially a
#20. All the predrilled holes in the kit are #40. I
nearly always drill #40 holes and set silver clecoes
to be later drilled out when everything is in place.
Sometimes I will start with a #30 if the plans call
for a 1/8" rivet. Also, if the #40 holes somehow get
slightly misaligned, overdrilling with a #20 will get
them aligned again without any "snowman" holes. FWIW
Jay in Dallas
__________________________________________________
Message 41
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| Subject: | Hole Drilling (was clecos again). |
HI Bill,
It seems your techniques and mine are mirror images. I always start
holes with 3/32 (#40) drill and enlarge from there. That means I
always use the silver clecos on every hole. I use more of the silver
than the other ones since I only use the other ones after enlarging
and I rivet the holes shortly after that.
One other impact of this way of drilling holes is that only the #40
drill starts holes. That means I like to have a split point drill
for the number 40 but all the others can just as well be standard
point drills. This is not a big deal for new bits, but I resharpen
all my bits until they break or are so short I can't use them any
more. I resharpen them by hand on a standard bench grinder so the
split points are a bit of a pain I would just as leave avoid.
Another practice I adopted is I try to never drill more than one
layer of metal at a time. This is a bit conservative compared to the
instructions supplied with the kit. However, I feel it reduces the
chances of making mistakes.
I don't know for sure, but I feel the process of enlarging holes
(with clecos in every other hole) actually helps get the parts and
holes better aligned for rivets. I can't be sure that enlarging
twice from #40 to #30 and then from #30 to #20 actually improves the
fit compared to doing it all in one step, but I feel this is a
possibility. In any case, that is how I do it.
Just for the sake of documenting an old-timer's jargon I will pass on
a little conversation I had with Richard VanGrunsven (THE R.V. in the
RV series of planes). He refers to the process of aligning holes by
drilling through one part with a hole in it to another with no hole
as "Match Drilling". For the process of enlarging holes that already
exist in all the parts he uses the term "Line Drilling". I see no
reason not to copy his jargon.
Best regards,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 10:47 AM 8/12/2006, you wrote:
> I've never used a silver cleco yet, and have 300 each black and
> gold. I'll probably use the 50 silvers I have when I get to the
> fuse. With the skeleton nailed down, there was no need to use the
> silvers on the wings.
-
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos, again |
Hi Jay,
I have learned that one source of warping is the order in which you
set rivets.
If you start at one end and rivet all the way down the line to the
other this causes warping. On the other hand, if you skip around and
randomly set the rivets the parts stay straight.
Go figure!
Paul
XL fuselage
>Bill, I aslo wonder if some of the warped wing syndrome could be
>attributed to using too few clecoes. I nearly always cleco at least
>every third hole and every other one if it looks like alignment
>might be a problem.
Message 43
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Jim, you=92re a dam fine gent ! Plus your heart is in the right spot and
you have helped more people over the years learn how to build then most
others I know. The internet is a hard place to teach though , without
the advantage of seeing ones face and understanding the cues of body
language a simple message that was intended to help can be misconstrued.
Also, and this afflicts all of us. We teach from our base of knowledge,
some have more then others and all our welcome to share from those who
know. Nevertheless, personal preferences will always take precedence
when answering questions and it is always up to the person asking the
question to capture all points of view and make the decision of what is
the best route for them, be it hinged or hingless, Jabiru or Corvair,
Red or Green pads. Some find it absolutely necessary to have 1000 of
each kind of cleco and cannot fathom how anyone can work on a plane
without their bare minimums while others can do quite well with 100 of
each kind. Now I have to admit I have well over 1000 of each but I
instruct builders and do manufacturing, plus for some dam reason they
keep hiding themselves in the shop. So for the average builder doing a
601HD Jims cleco count below is quite accurate. Whereas in my previous
note I quoted the number I would want on hand for the 601XL and missed
answering the specific question of the person actually wanting the
answer, for that I apologize to the person asking the question. For the
rest, remember when you ask a question there is no one answer, there are
many points of view and you need to resolve your answer from the
opinions at hand. Or after your all totally confused, just drop a letter
to the Zenith family, the reply is not as fast as this Matronics list.
But, they are after all here to help you in your adventure and have
built many Zenair Designed planes over the years.
OK , off soap box now and out to the shop to scrub my Corvair with green
pads and look for those dam clecos. I have nightmares of them attacking
me from under the bench!
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoak
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, final
Bill,
I apoligize if I got you all worked up over the number of clecoes needed
to finish building your 601. I completely agree with Mark Townsend that
you probably already have enough on hand if you simply follow some
simple sheet metal construction techniques as Mark mentioned. I just did
a lousy job trying to explain what I meant about clamping and using just
a minimum number of clecoes. Of course the more you have the better but
let me close with saying that over the past forty years or more I've
built three all metal airplanes and have never had more tham 150 2/23",
200 1/8" , 100 5/32" and 10 3/16"' clecoes. This includes building and
early 601HD 10 years ago and a Midget Mustang I 35 years ago. I still
have most of the same clecoes I used then.
Again I appoligize for the poor way I tried to make the same points Mark
did. I should have just told you how many clecoes I used. I was only
trying to help. That's all I do these days is to try to help
homebuilders. Ask Mark. Roger Dubbert and all the Zenith guys. I guess
I'm just not very good at it!
Jim Hoak
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:naumuk@alltel.net"Bill Naumuk
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:28 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Zenith-List: Clecos, final
I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to
finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into
a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson.
And you wonder why people quit the list!
Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD?
Bill Naumuk
40%HDS
Townville, Pa
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
8/11/2006
--
8/11/2006
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--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
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Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "TxDave" <dclaytx2@hotmail.com>
Hey Bob,
I'm happy to answer questions about my brake. Feel free to email me directly.
You will not find the materials needed at a retail store like Lowe's or Home Depot.
You'll have to look for a metal recycling/supply yard. I found 3 suppliers
right here in little-old Temple, Tx.
I recently bent the 10 foot long .032 spar cap angles and my center spar webs.
I've bent up to .040 with good results. I've even bent "Z" angles. Sometimes I've
had to use the old brain to figure out how to bend certain parts. So far,
so good.
Dave Clay
Temple, TX
601XL Scratch Builder
http://www.daves601xl.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54505#54505
Message 46
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| Subject: | Bic Mark-it markers |
I found a new marker that I like a lot so far. It is made by Bic called the
Mark-it. The tip trims down to a very fine point and is a lot like a Sharpie
but I think the tip is going to stay sharp longer. It seems a bit tougher to
me. Just thought I would share this info.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Plans building.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Back inside cover of Kit Planes |
We are very happy with our 701, Great airplane for grass strips,
I think that the cruise speed of our 701 is good enough, even for Cross Country
flying.
Ours cruise at 87 mph (indicated) @ 5,100 rpm. so I think is not a slow airplane,
given the other good advantages... just plan your refueling "legs" in
advance and could make good planned flights.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
701 912S
NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: Bill,
Ditto for me, I fly out of my back yard, would like to build a bigger and faster
plane but the selection is limited because of my short runway.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX CH701/912S
In a message dated 8/11/2006 11:41:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cffd@pgrb.com
writes:
Bill,
I got a 701 so I could keep it at home and fly out of my pasture.
Chuck D.
N701TX
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: allpro2@bellsouth.net
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 9:58 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Back inside cover of Kit Planes
The back inside cover of the September issue of Kit Planes has a nice
photo of a 701 and the proud owner / builder. (who is probably reading
this).....
Ya know, the 601 is sweet, fast and sexy looking, but the 701 is like
an old comfortable shoe....slip it on ever so easy.....easy in and out.
The 601 is a little more demanding to get in and out of ....but it is such
a looker....
Anyone else choose the 701 over the 601 for such reasons?? I am in the
looking/dreaming stage at this time.
Bill in Central Florida
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