---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/12/06: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:01 AM - Re: Hinge less ailerons (Gary Gower) 2. 04:30 AM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 04:49 AM - Re: Clecos (Trainnut01@aol.com) 4. 05:36 AM - 12' x 4' Workbench Ideas (Dino Bortolin) 5. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: Rudder skin bending technique (Bill Naumuk) 6. 06:04 AM - Clecos, again (Bill Naumuk) 7. 06:15 AM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (Robert L. Stone) 8. 06:28 AM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (Bob Percival) 9. 06:28 AM - Re: Re: Clecos (Jim Hoak) 10. 06:41 AM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (Gary Boothe) 11. 07:03 AM - Re: Re: Rudder skin bending technique (Larry Winger) 12. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: Hinge less ailerons (Edward Moody II) 13. 07:34 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Edward Moody II) 14. 08:27 AM - Sport Pilot (Tim Perkins) 15. 08:46 AM - 701 Reasons (Stanley Challgren) 16. 09:32 AM - paint stripes (john butterfield) 17. 10:49 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Bill Naumuk) 18. 11:16 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Jaybannist@cs.com) 19. 11:33 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Jaybannist@cs.com) 20. 11:37 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Tom and Bren Henderson) 21. 11:41 AM - Re: Clecos, again (Tom and Bren Henderson) 22. 12:38 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (Steve Hulland) 23. 01:33 PM - Re: Hinge less ailerons (with autopilot) (T. Graziano) 24. 01:55 PM - Re: 701 Reasons (John Marzulli) 25. 02:14 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (Randy) 26. 02:23 PM - Re: Clecos, again (Bill Naumuk) 27. 02:55 PM - Re: Clecos, again (Jaybannist@cs.com) 28. 03:40 PM - Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (William Dominguez) 29. 03:49 PM - Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (Tom and Bren Henderson) 30. 03:54 PM - Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (Zodie Rocket) 31. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Hinge less ailerons (with autopilot) (Steve Hulland) 32. 04:12 PM - Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (lwinger) 33. 05:30 PM - Clecos, final (Bill Naumuk) 34. 05:52 PM - Re: Clecos, final (wscribb) 35. 06:00 PM - Re: Clecos, final (Zodie Rocket) 36. 06:08 PM - Ah, the hingeless Navaid (Jeff Small) 37. 07:12 PM - Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? (ROBERT SCEPPA) 38. 07:29 PM - Re: Clecos, final (Jim Hoak) 39. 07:29 PM - Re: Clecos, again (Jeff) 40. 07:57 PM - Pilot Holes (Mark Sherman) 41. 07:57 PM - Hole Drilling (was clecos again). (Paul Mulwitz) 42. 08:06 PM - Re: Clecos, again (Paul Mulwitz) 43. 08:29 PM - Re: Clecos, final (Zodie Rocket) 44. 09:45 PM - Re: Pilot Holes (Tom Henderson) 45. 10:59 PM - Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press (TxDave) 46. 11:02 PM - Bic Mark-it markers (kevinbonds) 47. 11:47 PM - Re: Back inside cover of Kit Planes (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:03 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hinge less ailerons Hello Craig, No it was not that way, this is (as I remember reading) the correct one: Once several thousands of bending cycles where done with no problem, they stoped the test and made a little cut in the hinge area, >From that little cut, cycles later a little crack started to develope (as spectred), a stop hole was drilled and the crack stoped there. the test continued successfully all the cycles planned with no farther problem. I am convinced and will use it in my XL wings. Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico in a 701 912S Building a 601 XL Craig Payne wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Zenith actually did a life test with a motor flexing a sample. It went tens of thousands of cycles before short cracks appeared at the ends. I think they then drilled two stop holes and continued the test. You will die of old age before this is a real problem. -- Craig --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:28 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press Hi Bob, I got out my trusty keyboard and did a little searching in your area for steel suppliers. I found one that looks pretty good about 30 miles from you. I don't have any personal experience with these guys, but I liked their web site. You might drive over and take a look or give them a call. http://www.adamscitysteel.com/index.html in case you are interested, my major search that got this jewel was something like "80513 steel angle" on Yahoo local search engine good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 09:53 PM 8/11/2006, you wrote: >I've been shopping around for angle for this brake but haven't had >much luck finding 8' pieces. Further, the 4' pieces I've found at >Lowe's go for about twenty five bucks. Any suggestions where to >locate this stuff? > >Thanks in advance! > >Do Not Archive > >Bob Percival >701 from plans >Berthoud CO > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:29 AM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos Jim Without discussing how I know, I completely agree that you can build a twisted wing if you trust the clecos. I am curious about what you did about it afterward. Carroll Jernigan XL Wings do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:26 AM PST US From: Dino Bortolin Subject: Zenith-List: 12' x 4' Workbench Ideas This thread came along at a good time - my friend that I'm borrowing a table from is planning to build an RV12 and needs it back. So I have about a year to get my plane on the wheels (extremely unlikely!). I'm hoping he buys a plane instead :-) do not archive Dino Bortolin LaSalle, Ontario XL/Corvair ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:07 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin bending technique --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" Larry- Are you talking about the rudder skin or the stab? If it's the stab, the old hand drawn builder's manual shows that you use an 18mm board against what will be the leading edge to keep you from pushing down too far. If it's the rudder skin, the Homebuilder's Help DVD shows it just being folded over. The ribs provide the final radius. Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "lwinger" Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:50 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin bending technique > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" > > Ron, > > What stop did you use? I see no reference in the plans to the radius. > > -------- > Larry Winger > Tustin, CA > 601XL #6493 from scratch > Building stabilizer & rudder parts > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54286#54286 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:59 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, again All- I must be losing my ability to communicate, because my question was "How many clecos will I actually need to complete my fuselage", not "How to I keep from warping the wings". I already learned that lesson the hard way- attached is a picture of how I prevented it. (118K) My point is, if you're following the manual sequentially, you leave off building the center wing with everything in clecos and move on to the fuse. All right, I'm going to follow the instructions. So how many more clecos do I need from this point on? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press Bob, Try Home Depot, we have both Lowes, and Home Depot here in Killeen, Texas and in my opinion, Home depot is cheaper and has a better selection of everything. I know they have steel angle in several different sizes. Bob Stone Harker Heights, Tx ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Percival To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:53 PM Subject: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press I've been shopping around for angle for this brake but haven't had much luck finding 8' pieces. Further, the 4' pieces I've found at Lowe's go for about twenty five bucks. Any suggestions where to locate this stuff? Thanks in advance! Do Not Archive Bob Percival 701 from plans Berthoud CO ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:51 AM PST US From: "Bob Percival" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press Thanks to Paul & those of you who responded off list. This ought to keep me busy for while! Do Not Archive Bob Percival 701 from plans Berthoud CO -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press Hi Bob, I got out my trusty keyboard and did a little searching in your area for steel suppliers. I found one that looks pretty good about 30 miles from you. I don't have any personal experience with these guys, but I liked their web site. You might drive over and take a look or give them a call. http://www.adamscitysteel.com/index.html in case you are interested, my major search that got this jewel was something like "80513 steel angle" on Yahoo local search engine good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 09:53 PM 8/11/2006, you wrote: I've been shopping around for angle for this brake but haven't had much luck finding 8' pieces. Further, the 4' pieces I've found at Lowe's go for about twenty five bucks. Any suggestions where to locate this stuff? Thanks in advance! Do Not Archive Bob Percival 701 from plans Berthoud CO --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:51 AM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos Carroll, Long story short, I got ZAC to send me another wing kit without the spar attach holes drilled. I match drilled the attach holes using a locally made drill bushing. Also paid very close attention when building the second wing. Built it in two weeks! There is much more to the story but I'll not bore everyone here with it. As for the warped wing, being lazy as I am, it is still stored in my basement, painted and all. All I've got to do is remove the rivets, replace the ribs and reassemble. I probably would have to upsize a few rivets in the rear spar at the outboard end. It's only been ten years , but I do hope to get to it some day, if I live long enough! If you want all the gory details of how I built the warped wing and how I built a nice straight wing the second time contact me off line directly and I'll share the whole story with you. Jim Hoak 601HD with a warped wing ( been fixed though) do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Trainnut01@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Zenith-List: Clecos Jim Without discussing how I know, I completely agree that you can build a twisted wing if you trust the clecos. I am curious about what you did about it afterward. Carroll Jernigan XL Wings do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:18 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press Bob, When he accesses his e-mail, Dave would tell you that he found =BC=94 angle at a junk yard for pennies on the dollar! I, however, found mine at a metal supply shop and paid 3 times more than I should have. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings almost done.... _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Percival Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:06 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press Thanks to Paul & those of you who responded off list. This ought to keep me busy for while! Do Not Archive Bob Percival 701 from plans Berthoud CO -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press Hi Bob, I got out my trusty keyboard and did a little searching in your area for steel suppliers. I found one that looks pretty good about 30 miles from you. I don't have any personal experience with these guys, but I liked their web site. You might drive over and take a look or give them a call. http://www.adamscitysteel.com/index.html in case you are interested, my major search that got this jewel was something like "80513 steel angle" on Yahoo local search engine good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 09:53 PM 8/11/2006, you wrote: I=92ve been shopping around for angle for this brake but haven=92t had much luck finding 8=92 pieces. Further, the 4=92 pieces I=92ve found at Lowe=92s go for about twenty five bucks. Any suggestions where to locate this stuff? Thanks in advance! Do Not Archive Bob Percival 701 from plans Berthoud CO --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:31 AM PST US From: "Larry Winger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin bending technique I was talking about the rudder skin. Thank, however, for the advance info on the stab. Larry Winger On 8/12/06, Bill Naumuk wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" > > Larry- > Are you talking about the rudder skin or the stab? If it's the stab, > the > old hand drawn builder's manual shows that you use an 18mm board against > what will be the leading edge to keep you from pushing down too far. If > it's > the rudder skin, the Homebuilder's Help DVD shows it just being folded > over. > The ribs provide the final radius. > Bill Naumuk > 40%HDS > Townville, Pa > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lwinger" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:50 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder skin bending technique > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" > > > > Ron, > > > > What stop did you use? I see no reference in the plans to the radius. > > > > -------- > > Larry Winger > > Tustin, CA > > 601XL #6493 from scratch > > Building stabilizer & rudder parts > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54286#54286 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:13 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Hinge less ailerons You bet your bippy! While I myself am not a Corvair guy, it is a nice option for many. Just another reason I predict that the Zodiac will hold its own against the RV-12. Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: NYTerminat@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:08 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Hinge less ailerons Just playing with you, Your analogy will probably be correct and I will look to see more Corvairs in the sky. :) In a message dated 8/11/2006 7:34:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, admin@arachnidrobotics.com writes: OH NO, you did NOT just start that up again did you?! : ) Oh, and for what it's worth, you'll get as much for a well built XL with a Corvair as you would for a Jab, minus the difference in engine costs. Which means....YOU'LL MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT WHEN YOU SELL A CORVAIR POWERED PLANE AS YOU WILL WHEN YOU SELL A JABIRU POWERED PLANE (give or take a bit.) That ten thousand dollar difference in price is easily made up in the fact that it cost thousands less to get it in the air. Oh, not to mention the fact that some people swear by them, not at them. One more time as a group..."TO EACH THEIR OWN!" NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: You are installing a Corvair engine and are worried about resale for the aileron hinges???? do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:34 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again I hope what I'm doing is adequate... I just used a smart level to make certain that the main and rear spars were the same amount off level before rivetting. I may be missing something but I think folks get way too excited about having things plumb level or at a particular angle relative to plumb. I look at it this way..... once it's flying, it won't necessarilty be at any of those carefully guarded angles will it? But it damn well better be at the right angles relative to other parts of the airplane! In answer to your question..... buy a herd of them.... particularly the black ones. About 250 - 300 silver..... about 300 - 350 copper...... and about 350 - 400 black. The silver and copper ones will sell to anyone who builds an RV and when the -12 hits the market so will the black ones. That's my 2 bits worth, Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, again All- I must be losing my ability to communicate, because my question was "How many clecos will I actually need to complete my fuselage", not "How to I keep from warping the wings". I already learned that lesson the hard way- attached is a picture of how I prevented it. (118K) My point is, if you're following the manual sequentially, you leave off building the center wing with everything in clecos and move on to the fuse. All right, I'm going to follow the instructions. So how many more clecos do I need from this point on? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:57 AM PST US From: "Tim Perkins" Subject: Zenith-List: Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Perkins" --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > On the other hand, if the student > has a standard 3'rd class medical and student pilot license then he > can solo any class of trainer and still test for and receive a Sport > Pilot certificate. Correct to some extent, however you cannot test for a Sport Pilot certificate unless the aircraft is LSA-compliant (eLSA, sLSA, or an experimental or certified aircraft fitting the LSA definition). So you can't ever complete your SP certificate unless you are able to take the test in an LSA-compliant aircraft. > At that point the medical will serve to qualify > him for further training toward a Private Pilot certificate. Yes, however you cannot exercise the rights of a SP unless flying a LSA-compliant aircraft, which most trainers do not qualify for. So even if you have your SP certificate, you're a Student PP if you climb into a non-LSA compliant aircraft (no passengers, CFI permission/sign-off). The written tests are quite different also, and not interchangeable. You can't take your PP Written and have it qualify you for your SP. You'd have to take your SP written in order to take the SP Practical. I also think the student certificates are a little different too (you basically have to indicate which type of certificate you want, SP or PP). The hours flying can count for either. Tim Perkins ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Reasons From: Stanley Challgren List: Ditto for me, I fly out of my back yard, would like to build a bigger and faster plane but the selection is limited because of my short runway. Bob Spudis N701ZX CH701/912S I got a 701 so I could keep it at home and fly out of my pasture. Chuck D. The same for me plus the ease of getting in and out of a 701. My body was rebelling against climbing up on the wing, over the railing and under the canopy to assume command of a 601. Stan 701 a'building ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:03 AM PST US From: john butterfield Subject: Zenith-List: paint stripes --> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield hi list i have been thinking of using reflective stripes after i paint my machine. has anyone used them and if so, do they hold up and not look to bad. it seems that the reflective qualities would be an advantage at night. john butterfield 601XL, Corvair Torrance, Ca __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:40 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again Ed- I've never used a silver cleco yet, and have 300 each black and gold. I'll probably use the 50 silvers I have when I get to the fuse. With the skeleton nailed down, there was no need to use the silvers on the wings. I guess I'll have to look at the plans to figure out how many of the rest I'll need unless one of the old hands can let me know how many black and gold clecos they owned at the completion of their project. As far as alignment is concerned, I did everything with a 5' level and shims. Once everything was true, I clamped the skeleton down on the bench with the L fixtures shown in the first picture. I don't think it's a matter of making sure everything is laser true, but making sure the sucker doesn't move once you start reefing on it. As a matter of fact, I'm positive! Gotta remember the 601 series was designed before anyone other than the military could afford a laser level. Someone asked how you fix a warp. Disgustingly simple. You tear everything apart to the point where you can get rid of the warp, salvage what you can, and either order Zenith "Oops" parts or learn how to fabricate them yourself. This is the point where some of us realized they would have been just as far ahead building from scratch from the start. The first picture shows a scratchbuilt kit right outboard wing- 90% scratch, 10% kit. Damn near all I could salvage was the sheet part of the spar and a couple of rear ribs. Second picture of the finished products attached. As you can see, there are a batch of clecos behind held hostage. The picture was taken when everything was still in the basement. Back to my original question for people who have completed a 601 project- how many black and gold clecos did you own when it was all over???? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again I hope what I'm doing is adequate... I just used a smart level to make certain that the main and rear spars were the same amount off level before rivetting. I may be missing something but I think folks get way too excited about having things plumb level or at a particular angle relative to plumb. I look at it this way..... once it's flying, it won't necessarilty be at any of those carefully guarded angles will it? But it damn well better be at the right angles relative to other parts of the airplane! In answer to your question..... buy a herd of them.... particularly the black ones. About 250 - 300 silver..... about 300 - 350 copper...... and about 350 - 400 black. The silver and copper ones will sell to anyone who builds an RV and when the -12 hits the market so will the black ones. That's my 2 bits worth, Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, again All- I must be losing my ability to communicate, because my question was "How many clecos will I actually need to complete my fuselage", not "How to I keep from warping the wings". I already learned that lesson the hard way- attached is a picture of how I prevented it. (118K) My point is, if you're following the manual sequentially, you leave off building the center wing with everything in clecos and move on to the fuse. All right, I'm going to follow the instructions. So how many more clecos do I need from this point on? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:47 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again Bill, I am not scratch building and I am building an XL. However, maybe this will help. I now have 350-3/32"; 400-1/8"; 400-5/32"; and 50-3/16". I have completed tail, wings and about half of the fuselage. I think I have enough clecoes to finish, but I don't think that I am overstocked. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:20 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again Bill, You mentioned that you have never used silver clecoes. I have found (upon advice from ZAC) that a #40 drill bit is a lot easier to control accurately than is a #30 or, especially a #20. All the predrilled holes in the kit are #40. I nearly always drill #40 holes and set silver clecoes to be later drilled out when everything is in place. Sometimes I will start with a #30 if the plans call for a 1/8" rivet. Also, if the #40 holes somehow get slightly misaligned, overdrilling with a #20 will get them aligned again without any "snowman" holes. FWIW Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:04 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again I've got less than half that, and I don't see a need for any more. Perhaps we're all using a different assembly process? I started with the tail, and there are still 8 clecos in the tail as I write this. Next was the fuselage, which is nearly complete. I would say I will have maybe fifty or so still stuck in it while I work on the wings. One point to note here is that there is no reason to fill every hole with a cleco, or even every third hole. As has been mentioned before on the list, what's important is that all parts are straight and true. What's it take, two days shipping to get another hundred clecos? I'd use what you've got, and when it looks like you'll be needing some more, order them. "Do I have enough clecos" is definitely not an area I would lose any sleep over. Oh, the cheapest I have found so far is Pegasus Auto Racing ( http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=645 ). They run about 35 cents a piece for most flavors. Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Bill, I am not scratch building and I am building an XL. However, maybe this will help. I now have 350-3/32"; 400-1/8"; 400-5/32"; and 50-3/16". I have completed tail, wings and about half of the fuselage. I think I have enough clecoes to finish, but I don't think that I am overstocked. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:48 AM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again I always found drilling a pilot hole was like digging a post hole a little too small, then going back to dig it the right size. If you're carefull with a drill, you won't be off more than .010". If you notice that, you're FAR too much a perfectionist to be building this plane. LOL Do Not Archive Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Bill, You mentioned that you have never used silver clecoes. I have found (upon advice from ZAC) that a #40 drill bit is a lot easier to control accurately than is a #30 or, especially a #20. All the predrilled holes in the kit are #40. I nearly always drill #40 holes and set silver clecoes to be later drilled out when everything is in place. Sometimes I will start with a #30 if the plans call for a 1/8" rivet. Also, if the #40 holes somehow get slightly misaligned, overdrilling with a #20 will get them aligned again without any "snowman" holes. FWIW Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:51 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sport Pilot Why even bother with the Sports Pilote license? If you have a private pilot license with a lapsed medical you can fly within the sport pilot arena and do not even need the endorsements. At least that is how I think I remember the rules. To lazy to look it up right now. -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:01 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinge less ailerons (with autopilot) No problem with the Trio EZ Pilot II auto-pilot and the hinge less ailerons. I did not adjust the autopilot factory set servo override force higher than when received. I can overpower the servo if needed and the existing servo force is more than sufficient to keep'er straight on course. I have been previously involved in investigations a lot of aircraft component metal fatigue failures ((also other failures such as overstress, stress corrosion cracking in aluminum and stress corrosion/hydrogen embrittlement failures in hi-strength steels (used to be fun listening to the debates over which one occurred in high-strength steels - do not know if a way has yet been developed to positively determine this type failure if the part had been plated)) and have spent countless hours with metallurgists in the lab. Originally, I thought that the skin hinge could be prone to fatigue failure, but after reading Mr. Heinz's test, I had no concerns. From an aerodynamic stand point, I voted with my funds for the hinge less system. Yes, the aileron stick force is heavy compared to the elevator stick force BUT The hinge less system is a really neat discussion point with other airplane enthusiasts. Tony Graziano 601XL; N493TG; 128 hrs ---------------- Time: 09:05:20 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hinge less ailerons --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" If you look in the file archive for this list you can see examples of AP servos installed in 601's: www.matronics.com/photoshare/craig@craigandjean.com.02.11.2006/ These include servos from Navaid and Treo. I assume at least one of these planes uses the "skin" hinges. Any of the owners should be able to comment on their servo performance: Jeff Small, Tony Graziano or Pat Safford. >From my point of view I would bet that the force of the wind on the ailerons generates much more counterforce than the "skin" hinge. -- Craig Subject: Zenith-List: Hinge less ailerons From: "John Hines" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Hines" I had an interesting conversation with Jim Younkin over the weekend about the Zenith 601. For those that don't know, Jim Younkin is credited with inventing the autopilot and he is the president of Trutrak. When I told him I was building a 601XL, he rather gruffly asked what kind of aileron hinge I was using. We then launched into the normal conversation about how Zenith claims they last longer than a piano hinge... He then said that questions of reliability weren't then only reason he didn't like them. He said that flexing metal is not a hinge, it is a spring. A spring requires more force to move than a hinge. He talked about the CT2K having spring balanced ailerons and how even though it was an LSA it required a bigger autopilot servo than a Bonanza. After talking to him I thought back to my flight in the demo plane. The elevator motion was very smooth, but the aileron motion was stiff. But you need so little aileron motion to maneuver that it didn't bother me. Does the piano hinge give it better motion? How much weight does it add? All I know is that I'm a guy with no pilot's license and a completed tail kit. Jim Younkin is a hell of a lot smarter than I am. It's hard to argue with a guy with his credentials. What do you guys think? John www.johnsplane.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:29 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Reasons My 701 will be kept at a major GA airport, but it's mission will be to fly in and out of mountain lakes and through the inside passage to Alaska. This plane is for camping and scenery chasing. On 8/12/06, Stanley Challgren wrote: > > List: > > Ditto for me, I fly out of my back yard, would like to build a bigger and > faster plane but the selection is limited because of my short runway. > > > Bob Spudis > N701ZX CH701/912S > > > I got a 701 so I could keep it at home and fly out of my pasture. > Chuck D. > > The same for me plus the ease of getting in and out of a 701. My body was > rebelling against climbing up on the wing, over the railing and under the > canopy to assume command of a 601. > > Stan > 701 a'building > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:50 PM PST US From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sport Pilot I'm not sure how this thread started but I believe you're right Steven. If a person is already a PP and lets his/her medical lapse they can fly any Sport Pilot compliant plane with a valid drivers license. Do not archive Randy Ferri ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Hulland To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 2:36 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sport Pilot Why even bother with the Sports Pilote license? If you have a private pilot license with a lapsed medical you can fly within the sport pilot arena and do not even need the endorsements. At least that is how I think I remember the rules. To lazy to look it up right now. -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:13 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again This is the first true answer to the question I got. Figure on 150 each of A4 and A5 clecos past the recommended 300 and you should be OK. do not archive Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again Bill, I am not scratch building and I am building an XL. However, maybe this will help. I now have 350-3/32"; 400-1/8"; 400-5/32"; and 50-3/16". I have completed tail, wings and about half of the fuselage. I think I have enough clecoes to finish, but I don't think that I am overstocked. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:09 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again Bill, I aslo wonder if some of the warped wing syndrome could be attributed to using too few clecoes. I nearly always cleco at least every third hole and every other one if it looks like alignment might be a problem. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:59 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Zenith-List: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? So far I have checked Yarde Metals, ACS, Wicks and Airparts Inc. You need around 26 feet of this to build the 601XL. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:43 PM PST US From: Tom and Bren Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? I wouldn't bother with the .093 angle. It's a pain to find, and it cost too much when you do find it. You can replace it with .125 angle, with ZAC's blessing. While not the cheapest, Mcmaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) has 8' lengths for $10.42 right now. Make sure you're asking for 6061-T6 when you call. I've used this extensively in place of the .093 with only one drawback. It's a pain in the @$$ to bend. But, if you don't mind a little more elbow grease, it actually makes for a stiffer airframe with very little weight penalty. Hope that helps... William Dominguez wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? So far I have checked Yarde Metals, ACS, Wicks and Airparts Inc. You need around 26 feet of this to build the 601XL. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:31 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Go with .125 angle or call Zenith the .093 is a special make. Check the archives as this issue has been beaten to death over the years. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Dominguez Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:38 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? So far I have checked Yarde Metals, ACS, Wicks and Airparts Inc. You need around 26 feet of this to build the 601XL. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans -- No virus found in this incoming message. 8/11/2006 -- 8/11/2006 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:39 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Hinge less ailerons (with autopilot) John, No doubt Jim Younkin is talented, smart, knowledgeable, informed and successful. But, he, like all of us has opinions based on facts and ideas that he supports - that is the genius of all debate I think. And, he probably cannot do what you do best as well as you. Unless you are in the same profession I have never found comparing smarts, etc. to mine or anyone eles to be a very useful endeavor - we all have our great and not so great traits. I have flown with the hing less ailerons and find them to be great. My 600 has them and I anticipate no problem at all when I start flying it this month or next (waiting, waiting, waiting for the FAA paperwork). The testing done with these aileron's was very good. More than twenty years of empirical use has shown them to be just as good as any other system when used in the correct application. So, why not? And as others say, it is a great talking point when you arrive somewhere and find someone that has never seen or even heard of them. I find it funny to hear the guys around here who talked down pulled rivets on the Zodiac planes now starting to change as they find out that other companies are using them. I even think one of the next Vans airplane may have them - somebody will correct me here. Bottom line is, the pulled rivets work just great. A bunch of mine have been dimpled and made flush on the wing. Not really necessary, but it looks very good and probably adds a bit of strength and no cost in weight - but sure costs more man-power. The best advise I can offer is to learn how to fly well, know and understand your airplane even better while flying it within its and your capabilities. Doing that will result in great fun and safe flying as you take your "hing less aileron" story to all of those destinations where someone will question such a building method. I may be wrong, but the factory probably switched to piano hinged ailerons in order to sell more airplanes to the many who will never really try to understand and to the many who give their opinion more weight than any other. Enjoy yourself both building and flying. Do Not Archive -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? From: "lwinger" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" If you decide to go with 3/4"x3/4"x.125", you might want to check out www.onlinemetals.com out of Seattle. They are showing 6061-T6 at $6.33 per 8' length. I've never used them. Any reports on their products or service would be appreciated. -------- Larry Winger Tustin, CA 601XL #6493 from scratch Building stabilizer & rudder parts Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54450#54450 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:27 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, final I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson. And you wonder why people quit the list! Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:10 PM PST US From: "wscribb" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Clecos, final Bill, For my scratch built 601XL, I purchased 400 of the 3/32 (silver), 400 of the 1/8 (copper) and 200 of the 5/32 (black) clecos. With this amount I never found myself looking for additional clecos of any size. With this quantity I was able to build both wings at the same time. Bill Cribb 601XL scratch built on the gear working firewall forward. Vaughn, WA _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:28 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, final I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson. And you wonder why people quit the list! Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:23 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Clecos, final Bill and others, cleco=92s are a great tool and the more you have the better, but only trust them to hold two pieces of metal together and nothing more. They will not keep parts in alignment or stop parts from shifting or twisting. However, how many do you truly need for the XL. 100 silver, 200 copper and 300 black, 10 brass. When you have need for more then these #=92s it is time to install tack rivets to secure the large assembly your working on. When you finish a rudder/ elevator don=92t leave a 50cent cleco in the unit to store it , install a rivet with a flush head so that you will recognize which one you need to remove later, on large assemblies it is better to install tack rivets in the odd location to prevent movement. These can easily be drilled out later and you can use a A4 tack rivet in the line of A5 so that when you need to remove the tack rivet you can drill to A5 and install the proper size. Having 800 of each cleco is completely unnessary and when you get large crowds of cleco=92s gathered in one place they start eating there young, that is why there is always less in the can the next morning. One other TIDBIT of wisdom, when I teach metalworking I ensure that no one keeps his or her head directly over the newly installed cleco. TRUST me on this point! After installing a cleco if your head is directly over it and the gripping teeth break that dam cleco will impale itself into your forehead with enough force to actually leave a welt and a very ugly purple bruise the following day! You can say the wife beat you during a frisky night to you friends that are not aircraft builders because it truly is easier to say that then first explain what a cleco is then how the hell it is possible to impart such a beating on a grown man! :-) Hope this helps Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 donated to Jon HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, final I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson. And you wonder why people quit the list! Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa -- No virus found in this incoming message. 8/11/2006 -- 8/11/2006 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:22 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: Ah, the hingeless Navaid These include servos from Navaid and Treo. I assume at least one of these planes uses the "skin" hinges. Any of the owners should be able to comment on their servo performance: Jeff Small, Tony Graziano or Pat Safford. Skin hinges here with an AP-1 - no problemo. Someone once replaced the hingeless with piano wire ones. Maybe you could dig in the archives for a look. Should only take about three days. tailwinds jeff do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:48 PM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > I guess I was lucky, I found a local place that had > .125 in 12ft lengths. I bought 4 pieces for my cap > strips on the wing spars. I paid $35 for all, but > now I'm looking for 12ft lengths of 1x1x.062 for my > fuse longerons. I did check with Wicks, they are > $1.72 a foot, but the shipping is costly. > Bob Sceppa...do not archive > --- William Dominguez wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez > > > Where can I find 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle? So > far I have checked Yarde Metals, ACS, Wicks and > Airparts Inc. You need around 26 feet of this to > build the 601XL. > > > William Dominguez > Zodiac 601XL Plans > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > (was 2MB) > > Web Forums! > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:02 PM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, final Bill, I apoligize if I got you all worked up over the number of clecoes needed to finish building your 601. I completely agree with Mark Townsend that you probably already have enough on hand if you simply follow some simple sheet metal construction techniques as Mark mentioned. I just did a lousy job trying to explain what I meant about clamping and using just a minimum number of clecoes. Of course the more you have the better but let me close with saying that over the past forty years or more I've built three all metal airplanes and have never had more tham 150 2/23", 200 1/8" , 100 5/32" and 10 3/16"' clecoes. This includes building and early 601HD 10 years ago and a Midget Mustang I 35 years ago. I still have most of the same clecoes I used then. Again I appoligize for the poor way I tried to make the same points Mark did. I should have just told you how many clecoes I used. I was only trying to help. That's all I do these days is to try to help homebuilders. Ask Mark. Roger Dubbert and all the Zenith guys. I guess I'm just not very good at it! Jim Hoak do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Zenith-List: Clecos, final I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson. And you wonder why people quit the list! Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:02 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Clecos, again Ed/Bill, I agree about the silver clecos. I have my fuse on the gear and the fwf installed (601 HD w/ jabiru). I'm using my first silvers on the canopy. Jeff Davidson do not archive _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again Ed- I've never used a silver cleco yet, and have 300 each black and gold. I'll probably use the 50 silvers I have when I get to the fuse. With the skeleton nailed down, there was no need to use the silvers on the wings. I guess I'll have to look at the plans to figure out how many of the rest I'll need unless one of the old hands can let me know how many black and gold clecos they owned at the completion of their project. As far as alignment is concerned, I did everything with a 5' level and shims. Once everything was true, I clamped the skeleton down on the bench with the L fixtures shown in the first picture. I don't think it's a matter of making sure everything is laser true, but making sure the sucker doesn't move once you start reefing on it. As a matter of fact, I'm positive! Gotta remember the 601 series was designed before anyone other than the military could afford a laser level. Someone asked how you fix a warp. Disgustingly simple. You tear everything apart to the point where you can get rid of the warp, salvage what you can, and either order Zenith "Oops" parts or learn how to fabricate them yourself. This is the point where some of us realized they would have been just as far ahead building from scratch from the start. The first picture shows a scratchbuilt kit right outboard wing- 90% scratch, 10% kit. Damn near all I could salvage was the sheet part of the spar and a couple of rear ribs. Second picture of the finished products attached. As you can see, there are a batch of clecos behind held hostage. The picture was taken when everything was still in the basement. Back to my original question for people who have completed a 601 project- how many black and gold clecos did you own when it was all over???? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Moody II Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again I hope what I'm doing is adequate... I just used a smart level to make certain that the main and rear spars were the same amount off level before rivetting. I may be missing something but I think folks get way too excited about having things plumb level or at a particular angle relative to plumb. I look at it this way..... once it's flying, it won't necessarilty be at any of those carefully guarded angles will it? But it damn well better be at the right angles relative to other parts of the airplane! In answer to your question..... buy a herd of them.... particularly the black ones. About 250 - 300 silver..... about 300 - 350 copper...... and about 350 - 400 black. The silver and copper ones will sell to anyone who builds an RV and when the -12 hits the market so will the black ones. That's my 2 bits worth, Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos, again All- I must be losing my ability to communicate, because my question was "How many clecos will I actually need to complete my fuselage", not "How to I keep from warping the wings". I already learned that lesson the hard way- attached is a picture of how I prevented it. (118K) My point is, if you're following the manual sequentially, you leave off building the center wing with everything in clecos and move on to the fuse. All right, I'm going to follow the instructions. So how many more clecos do I need from this point on? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:10 PM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: Zenith-List: Pilot Holes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sherman Tom H. Drilling a pilot hole for accuracy of position is only half the reason for a pilot hole. A two flute drill will drill a triangle shaped hole until the drill's lands are into the hole. This is difficult in sheet metal because it is so thin, you usually end up with a less than round hole and oversize. That is part of the reason Zenith uses the cs rivets, it fills the oversized hole with rivet material and then forms the head. Drilling a pilot hole first lets the next size drill produce a much rounder and more accurate size hole. All this makes for a better fit and stronger joint for the rivet. Do you have to do this? Nope, it's your airplane. You can fill those oversized out of shape holes with rivets all day long. And then the next time you hit some turbulence wonder how many rivets are wallowing around in those oversized holes. Mark S. 701/912S Painting in CA I always found drilling a pilot hole was like digging a post hole a little too small, then going back to dig it the right size. If you're careful with a drill, you won't be off more than .010". If you notice that, you're FAR too much a perfectionist to be building this plane. LOL Do Not Archive Jaybannist@cs.com wrote:Bill, You mentioned that you have never used silver clecoes. I have found (upon advice from ZAC) that a #40 drill bit is a lot easier to control accurately than is a #30 or, especially a #20. All the predrilled holes in the kit are #40. I nearly always drill #40 holes and set silver clecoes to be later drilled out when everything is in place. Sometimes I will start with a #30 if the plans call for a 1/8" rivet. Also, if the #40 holes somehow get slightly misaligned, overdrilling with a #20 will get them aligned again without any "snowman" holes. FWIW Jay in Dallas __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:11 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Zenith-List: Hole Drilling (was clecos again). HI Bill, It seems your techniques and mine are mirror images. I always start holes with 3/32 (#40) drill and enlarge from there. That means I always use the silver clecos on every hole. I use more of the silver than the other ones since I only use the other ones after enlarging and I rivet the holes shortly after that. One other impact of this way of drilling holes is that only the #40 drill starts holes. That means I like to have a split point drill for the number 40 but all the others can just as well be standard point drills. This is not a big deal for new bits, but I resharpen all my bits until they break or are so short I can't use them any more. I resharpen them by hand on a standard bench grinder so the split points are a bit of a pain I would just as leave avoid. Another practice I adopted is I try to never drill more than one layer of metal at a time. This is a bit conservative compared to the instructions supplied with the kit. However, I feel it reduces the chances of making mistakes. I don't know for sure, but I feel the process of enlarging holes (with clecos in every other hole) actually helps get the parts and holes better aligned for rivets. I can't be sure that enlarging twice from #40 to #30 and then from #30 to #20 actually improves the fit compared to doing it all in one step, but I feel this is a possibility. In any case, that is how I do it. Just for the sake of documenting an old-timer's jargon I will pass on a little conversation I had with Richard VanGrunsven (THE R.V. in the RV series of planes). He refers to the process of aligning holes by drilling through one part with a hole in it to another with no hole as "Match Drilling". For the process of enlarging holes that already exist in all the parts he uses the term "Line Drilling". I see no reason not to copy his jargon. Best regards, Paul XL fuselage At 10:47 AM 8/12/2006, you wrote: > I've never used a silver cleco yet, and have 300 each black and > gold. I'll probably use the 50 silvers I have when I get to the > fuse. With the skeleton nailed down, there was no need to use the > silvers on the wings. - ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:08 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, again Hi Jay, I have learned that one source of warping is the order in which you set rivets. If you start at one end and rivet all the way down the line to the other this causes warping. On the other hand, if you skip around and randomly set the rivets the parts stay straight. Go figure! Paul XL fuselage >Bill, I aslo wonder if some of the warped wing syndrome could be >attributed to using too few clecoes. I nearly always cleco at least >every third hole and every other one if it looks like alignment >might be a problem. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:18 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Clecos, final Jim, you=92re a dam fine gent ! Plus your heart is in the right spot and you have helped more people over the years learn how to build then most others I know. The internet is a hard place to teach though , without the advantage of seeing ones face and understanding the cues of body language a simple message that was intended to help can be misconstrued. Also, and this afflicts all of us. We teach from our base of knowledge, some have more then others and all our welcome to share from those who know. Nevertheless, personal preferences will always take precedence when answering questions and it is always up to the person asking the question to capture all points of view and make the decision of what is the best route for them, be it hinged or hingless, Jabiru or Corvair, Red or Green pads. Some find it absolutely necessary to have 1000 of each kind of cleco and cannot fathom how anyone can work on a plane without their bare minimums while others can do quite well with 100 of each kind. Now I have to admit I have well over 1000 of each but I instruct builders and do manufacturing, plus for some dam reason they keep hiding themselves in the shop. So for the average builder doing a 601HD Jims cleco count below is quite accurate. Whereas in my previous note I quoted the number I would want on hand for the 601XL and missed answering the specific question of the person actually wanting the answer, for that I apologize to the person asking the question. For the rest, remember when you ask a question there is no one answer, there are many points of view and you need to resolve your answer from the opinions at hand. Or after your all totally confused, just drop a letter to the Zenith family, the reply is not as fast as this Matronics list. But, they are after all here to help you in your adventure and have built many Zenair Designed planes over the years. OK , off soap box now and out to the shop to scrub my Corvair with green pads and look for those dam clecos. I have nightmares of them attacking me from under the bench! Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. HYPERLINK "mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoak Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecos, final Bill, I apoligize if I got you all worked up over the number of clecoes needed to finish building your 601. I completely agree with Mark Townsend that you probably already have enough on hand if you simply follow some simple sheet metal construction techniques as Mark mentioned. I just did a lousy job trying to explain what I meant about clamping and using just a minimum number of clecoes. Of course the more you have the better but let me close with saying that over the past forty years or more I've built three all metal airplanes and have never had more tham 150 2/23", 200 1/8" , 100 5/32" and 10 3/16"' clecoes. This includes building and early 601HD 10 years ago and a Midget Mustang I 35 years ago. I still have most of the same clecoes I used then. Again I appoligize for the poor way I tried to make the same points Mark did. I should have just told you how many clecoes I used. I was only trying to help. That's all I do these days is to try to help homebuilders. Ask Mark. Roger Dubbert and all the Zenith guys. I guess I'm just not very good at it! Jim Hoak do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:naumuk@alltel.net"Bill Naumuk Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Zenith-List: Clecos, final I give up. All I wanted to know was how may clecos I'd need to finish my project so I knew in advance how many to order, and I get into a discussion on wing warp and a French lesson. And you wonder why people quit the list! Zodie- how many clecos did you use on your HD? Bill Naumuk 40%HDS Townville, Pa -- No virus found in this incoming message. 8/11/2006 -- 8/11/2006 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:04 PM PST US From: Tom Henderson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Pilot Holes --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: sourcing .25" angle for Dave Clay's brake press From: "TxDave" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "TxDave" Hey Bob, I'm happy to answer questions about my brake. Feel free to email me directly. You will not find the materials needed at a retail store like Lowe's or Home Depot. You'll have to look for a metal recycling/supply yard. I found 3 suppliers right here in little-old Temple, Tx. I recently bent the 10 foot long .032 spar cap angles and my center spar webs. I've bent up to .040 with good results. I've even bent "Z" angles. Sometimes I've had to use the old brain to figure out how to bend certain parts. So far, so good. Dave Clay Temple, TX 601XL Scratch Builder http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54505#54505 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:50 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: Zenith-List: Bic Mark-it markers I found a new marker that I like a lot so far. It is made by Bic called the Mark-it. The tip trims down to a very fine point and is a lot like a Sharpie but I think the tip is going to stay sharp longer. It seems a bit tougher to me. Just thought I would share this info. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:56 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Back inside cover of Kit Planes We are very happy with our 701, Great airplane for grass strips, I think that the cruise speed of our 701 is good enough, even for Cross Country flying. Ours cruise at 87 mph (indicated) @ 5,100 rpm. so I think is not a slow airplane, given the other good advantages... just plan your refueling "legs" in advance and could make good planned flights. Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. 701 912S NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: Bill, Ditto for me, I fly out of my back yard, would like to build a bigger and faster plane but the selection is limited because of my short runway. Bob Spudis N701ZX CH701/912S In a message dated 8/11/2006 11:41:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cffd@pgrb.com writes: Bill, I got a 701 so I could keep it at home and fly out of my pasture. Chuck D. N701TX do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: allpro2@bellsouth.net To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 9:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Back inside cover of Kit Planes The back inside cover of the September issue of Kit Planes has a nice photo of a 701 and the proud owner / builder. (who is probably reading this)..... Ya know, the 601 is sweet, fast and sexy looking, but the 701 is like an old comfortable shoe....slip it on ever so easy.....easy in and out. The 601 is a little more demanding to get in and out of ....but it is such a looker.... Anyone else choose the 701 over the 601 for such reasons?? I am in the looking/dreaming stage at this time. Bill in Central Florida --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.